Mans Land.
"Men are born to be leaders. Good or bad, every man leads — his family, his business, his body, and his home as the spiritual head.
But in today’s world, that truth feels alien. Taboo. And as we’ve drifted from it, we’ve seen the results: fractured families, broken communities, men uncertain of who they are and what they’re for.
On the land, the challenge is clear — tame the soil, raise the stock, grow the crops. But the hardest battles aren’t in the paddocks. They’re in the pressure cooker of unhappy families, poor seasons, banks at the door, and a body breaking down. That’s when chaos reigns, and the question rises: ‘What’s it all for?’
Too many men try to answer that question without God. But He is the only certainty beyond what we can control.
This is Man’s Land — where we talk about the struggles, the victories, and what it means to lead as men under God’s design."
Mans Land.
Tradition vs. Innovation: Sons on the Farming Frontline
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What happens when tradition meets innovation on the family farm? Join us as we explore the heartfelt, universal struggles faced by sons in family farming. Joshua Borowski from Australia and Andy Schreck from the United States bring their stories to life, sharing the burdens of debt and the complexities of succession planning on their respective farms. Joshua's experiences managing a sprawling 17,000-acre operation in New South Wales and Andy's financial pressures on his Minnesota farm underscore the shared challenges, despite the miles between them.
Navigating the tightrope of generational farming dynamics, we dive into the emotional tug-of-war between honouring the past and embracing new practices. Through personal anecdotes, we reveal the frustration and resilience required to introduce innovative ideas while respecting the steadfast methods of the previous generation. The contrasting paths of our guests—one who took on land debt early and another who turned from acting to farming—highlight the diverse journeys within the agricultural community and the emotional toll of repeated setbacks.
Our conversation also ventures into the deep emotional terrain of growing up on a family farm, where love for the land intertwines with complex relationships with fathers. We discuss the impact of unresolved generational trauma and the transformative power of faith in overcoming despair. Emphasizing personal responsibility and the importance of breaking unhealthy cycles, we share resources and support systems like "Farmer on Fire" and "Sovereign Sons." This episode offers a beacon of hope, encouraging those facing similar struggles to step out of their comfort zones and embrace a brighter future.
Challenges of Being a Farmer's Son
Speaker 1Hi, I'm Andy Schrapp and I'm Joshua Borowski, and this is the Farmer's Son Edition Podcast, where we're talking the pains and potentials of being a farmer's son in today's farming industry.
Speaker 2Take a back and lend us your ear for a bit as we go international to cover some of the most pressing issues facing aspiring sons and family farming today.
Speaker 1I've been into our conversation here today and excited to get you guys introduced to the both of us and really the reason for us being here and the conversations here we're going to have in the future. So first, guys, we're going to get you introduced to the two men here that are sitting behind your podcast episode here and first get you introduced to Joshua. So, Joshua, I want to give you the introduction to your background, more about yourself, your operations and really what we've got running here inside of the Farmer's Sun podcast, and give us a description of your farming operation and what that exists for you here today.
Speaker 2Yeah, g'day, andy. So yeah, my name is Joshua Borowski. I'm an Australian farm from Northwest New South Wales. I run a broadacre mixed cropping and cattle operation. I run about 17,000 acres land as it stands at the moment.
Speaker 2We find that it's pretty incredible that over this vast ocean, over this vast space between australia and america, problems that we face as sons on the land are so very common and they are so very relevant, no matter where you are, because in the end, we're just men and we face the same trials. We face the same struggles day in and day out, whether you're on a tractor, whether you're on a spray rig, whether you you're you're out there, you know farming sugar cane or you're doing cotton. Um, you've got these same sort of dynamics that we sort of run into and, uh, these things are things that we really feel we need to address. We're passionate about it. We've all been through it. Um, and we know that there are a lot of you fellas out there right now that are currently inside of this great big pit. Um, that uh seems to be this mad circus house that we just really want to address.
Speaker 2I mean, I was born here out in New South Wales, australia, back in 1987. I grew up out here in the bush and you know, like so many family farms, they're generational. You know Grandparents started the farm after the Second World war and and dad took it on, built it. You know it's that sort of, you know that generational thing. It's, uh, you know the grandparents buy it, the parents build it, the sons back and spend it and and stuff it. You know what I mean, um, and I don't know like if that's, you know, is that sort of like what.
Speaker 1You guys have the similar sort of a gig over there in the site 100 like it's, it's, you know, it's like the first generation builds it, second generation grows it, third generation loses it. Like that's. That's, that's the name of the game here in the states here and so like going back to that. So so farming, farming over over, where you're at there, right, wife, wife and kids at home, and then still still on the farm, right, dad is 60, 62 no, my dad's 68.
Speaker 2I think god he doesn't listen to this and I get that wrong. But yeah, yeah, he's pushing 68 and you're getting there, but you wouldn't know it, he's just, he's just. You know, like there's so many, so many of our dads, they just, they don't, they don't stop, they hit the, they hit the point. You think, okay, it's time for you to stop, but it's not like, it's like I'm not stopping, I'm not pulling back on this, I'm going for it. Like you can't, you can't kill me, you can't stop.
Speaker 2And they're like these tanks that just go and go and go because they're, they're the builders, and they're sitting there like confused, like looking at you, like why would you want me to stop? Um, oh, but their minds are like, oh, yes, I know I need to, I know I should be handing this over and doing the succession thing, but they're just, they're, they're creatures of, of habits and they just keep on rolling. So you know, like, so, like my dad works alongside me, I work alongside my brothers as well, um, both, all of which are partners inside of this great big family enterprise. Um, and I know there's, like there's so many like farming operations, a lot of farming operations. They're, they're, they're just like that. Like yours is the same, andy. You know, like your, your, your, your, your farmer, you've got your dad's on there, your brother's in there as well, isn't he A?
Speaker 1hundred percent Like that. That's what's really unique to your guys about like this podcast here you guys listening is is. So me and joshua, we got the exact same same background here. You know, dad involved started my uh on the operation, brothers involved in family, all the family involved, and so for.
Speaker 1For for me, guys like I, I'm being in in the united states here farming in the state of minnesota, um, and and as well as joshua, back here on the family, on the family farm. And for me, like I was six, I went 600 grand in debt at at 19 to grow or continue to grow our farm and and there was just this, this uncertainty about how in the heck am I going to do this? And this pain and this pressure that I was under and that met with un, you know, volatile prices and and pressure, but then, ultimately, like this, this pain, this pit that I hadn't walked through yet and and as you, as you shared, like me and you, going through through uh warrior week and going through this, we realized, man, how much pain and how much undealt with uh things happen on family farms with the next generation, specifically with sons right, specifically with guns is is our conversations got very raw and very deep, in which what we're going to be talking about is because a lot of us are just taught this surface level kind of communication, because we haven't really been taught how to truly feel our own feelings. Like as cliche as you want to say that, but until what I've learned is like, until you learn about how you operate as a man, it affects everything your business, relationship with yourself, your body and, and you know, we we came to this conclusion again my dad's, 63.
Speaker 1And my brother's back on the farm here as well, and then I'm, you know, so there's, there's three of us on here and there's just this. You know this. How do we run this thing? How do we have real conversations? Because we all are dealing with our own pits.
Speaker 1We're dealing you have different men with different kinds of operating systems, but yet there's this problem, which is how do I communicate with them and and have this, so we're not just blowing up at each other, because that was my problem.
Speaker 2I shared you, shared with you many times I think, I think that's everybody's problem there, andy, like it really is, like we, we like every, every farmer's son, like there's a certain level of frustration right and um, and it builds, and it builds, and it builds like you, like you, how many, like I don't know. Um, I reckon everyone I've ever spoke to has this. But you, basically, you hop in the work, you, okay, which is the truck? Um, so, the truck, the truck for the, the, the americans over there, uh, the you, if you're an australian, um, you're in your, you're in your, you're in your work, vehicle of choice, and you're driving along.
Speaker 2And how many conversations. You're basically just spitting at the windscreen about the frustration that you have with your dad or your brother at the time, whatever it might be. Which is what's going on? Okay, what just happened, like 10 minutes ago, what happened yesterday? And you just basically just yelling at the wind, uh, the windscreen, because you know you just need to let it out somehow, uh, and you're just caught in your head and and, yeah, but, but you know, sometimes it's trivial and you get over it, sometimes it's not, and you don't know where to put it, and and so you bury it and then you just cope with it, but it doesn't go anywhere and it just sits there and that's sort of like what you're talking about, andy, that that hit that you. You, you're going into it's this darkness that you find there's no way out. You're scrambling at the walls here and you don't know which way to go. You're confused, you know there's. You know you're confused that as to you know what direction your life's meant to be going in. Um, you look at your if you're, if you're married and you've got kids. You look at them. You're like, how am I going to be a steward? Like how am I going to steward these, um, these charges that have been given? Uh well, if I don't even, you know, I don't even have the capacity inside of me when I come home every day after just had a whopping big blow-up with Dad, I've just been fighting with Dad, I've just been fighting with my brother or my partner or whatever, whoever it is. That's in your farm, that's that significant focus of pain and predominantly it is fathers, because that's where we come from as sons. It's that direct link. And then you come home and it hits you with a very nasty reality. So I know that's for my experience in my story, as in this introduction, so to speak.
Speaker 2It really went from, you know, came home when I was, you know, young and single, and, you know, just out of school, basically out of school, and I love the farm, love the bush, I love to ride my horses, I love to, you know, chase the cattle through the scrub, you know, drive right and all that sort of thing. We were only a small operation then. We were only about 4,000 acres country. I just worked for dad. You know, dad was what I knew. Dad was the rock, right, um, dad was that, that was the comfortable place to go, um, and he's your teacher, you know, like you're a kid. So, you know, you, just you, just you. You you fall to, to, to that that way, way, and it's that way of life.
Speaker 2There's also the image to it as well. It's like there are a lot of people that you sort of meet in the cities and things like that, and they just love the idea of farming. There's something about it Like farming. You know, it's got this glory to it, it's got this romance to it and all this sort of thing. All in all, it's a good lifestyle and we, we love what we do, we really do we love, you know, getting stuck into the, the, the hardship of it, uh, and reaping the rewards. The communities are good, you know, they're solid, they're. You know like everyone comes around each other. Uh, you know, when you, when you go out, I mean, like what do you guys have it over there? Like what do you do you guys have, um, like festivals or stuff like that that you guys, you know, come around at times?
Speaker 1Yeah, so, so like for us, a major stuff for us. It's like we call them county fairs, so we have our different regions and come together with county fairs and it is like and I think about, like our, our, our ability, you know when, when somebody gets stuck or somebody needs help, like we've had farmers around here in the past who, um, either had a family member die or had somebody die or there's an accident or something, and that farmer is trying to get his crop out or put his crop in.
Speaker 1like everybody stops and helps the farmer, like there's, there's a passionate thing about it, but you said something so powerful there, which is so true, because it was irrelevant to me is is dad, is that safe spot? Like, I came back after high school and college, came back to the family farm because that's that's what I knew, that's all I knew. I wanted to, I knew I wanted to farm, but there was and there is that. That this is all I know. But if dad's not a good teacher, if dad has shame, dad has guilt, you know you're stuck in that environment of getting the pain and getting that unconsciously because, because they're not doing it. What I learned is like they're not doing it on purpose, but it's that environment. There that is you're. You're getting generations of pain, of shame and, uh, it has a massive, massive effect on you as a child. Right, because it's like you you are.
Speaker 1There's this, and I read this again this morning that there's this about ants or I think it's fleas. You put flea fleas in like a uh, let's say like an eight inch jar and you close the lid. Uh, they, they learn that they can only jump eight inches Because when they jump they try to get. You know, get out. That's all they have learned to do. That environment restricted them to that eight inches, but you put them in a 16-inch or a taller jar. Like they learn, they can jump higher, they learn they have more space to grow and that's like us on the farms. When we have a dad, that that maybe shames, because for me I know I so I was struggling with cash flow on my farm. It was coming back and dad really wasn't passing on some of the land yet because he still had, you know, was running his operation. So I was how old were you then, andy? I was uh, 19, 19.
Speaker 1Yeah, right, okay yeah, yeah, and like just figuring up, like just this whole farming thing, like there's that excitement of man, I'm on the farm, I'm doing this, like I'm in my mind, I'm like I'm making that happy right, everything's great. But then it comes to the reality of you got market prices, you got the weather, you got the bank, you have breakdowns. I had certain expenses were starting to adding up, so I knew that I needed to do something different. But yet when I brought those new ideas to my dad that you get shut down with them because doing something different than what your dad is, and so like when you get shut down by your dad over and over and over again, that sucks, man, you become quiet.
Navigating Family Dynamics in Farming
Speaker 2Yeah, and that's. I think that that's a. I think that's actually a real major topic there. I mean, we need to cover that. Like, look, there's going to. This is basically the roundabouts of all the bones of what this podcast is going to be covering. These discussions that we're going to be have like, just what you put you laid down there. Is that being quiet? Like you should start to become quiet. Um, it's huge. Yeah, I think it's. It's.
Speaker 2It's so prevalent. Um, when you've got strong-willed builders okay, which of what? That family, generation, of the generation before us is okay. Um, they, they have a certain, they have a very uh, they have a certainty and a clarity around everything that they attack, because they're so, they're so geared towards that. Um, that basically, anything outside of that is like that. I'm critical of it and I'm like no, it's not gonna work. That they want to. Just, they don't want to bust our balls, they want to get the job done. They're very job focused. They're like this is where it has to be, this is the way it goes. My dad's the same, you know. He's like this is how it's going to go, this is the best way to do it.
Speaker 1Why to do it like that? Because they walked through it like they, they did it. This is this and it's what worked worked for them and I, and and part of my that was my frustration I held back against my dad for so long because it wasn't just resentment I had from. There were some things in the past, like dad out building, you know, uh, he essentially is the first generation. Uh started with 40 acres back when his dad died, when he, when you know, he started farming too when he was 18, 19. So he, he had to walk a very hard path, started from absolutely nothing and and had to walk through the trenches and built, has built, a very successful operation. So in my mind, like I, I see it completely different now.
Speaker 1But when I came back after you come back after after so many years and you're excited like, hey, I'm farming with dad, we're going to do this, this and this, and, and I started bringing those ideas and wanted to do these things different, I was pretty much asking my dad to change his identity right To do what I wanted to do, and I couldn't understand why he wasn't listening to me. It's because that's all I wanted was like, hey, here's an idea, you know, or that we could do, or to try, try it because I was applying some. We apply new things or new tactics we want to do on the farm, um, that we either learn in college or just this excitement right to do things differently. But, uh, but I carried a lot of that frustration because I kept getting shut down over and over and over again and you're just like man, let's see what's the point after a while?
Speaker 2yeah, you get, you get knocked off that horse all uh, over and over again. It's such an emotional struggle. Yeah, that's the thing done here. It's like the same thing for me, man, like it was. It's basically you, you know, you come back from school you've got a full, full of hope and vision and this idea that you're going to be working for yourself and the freedom and the sovereignty of the land, et cetera, et cetera. You're going to be just like that and you're going to do it, but you're going to do it in your way as well, and it's going to be fantastic. And then the reality really starts to strike.
Speaker 2Now, gosh, your story, andy. You went straight in and you were buying land and getting into debt at such a young age. That's, that's enormous. Um, you know, like, that wasn't. That was not what. That was not my experience. My experience was basically I was just working for dad. Um, you know we had the land and, uh, you know he, he went go and tour to to. You know, well, we, we expanded the business, we went, we increased the, the, the size, basically, when I came over back home from overseas, because I, like I first was at school, came back from boarding school. So everybody goes to boarding school out here, um, because I know schools like in your general vicinity that's, you know you, you just go away for a higher education. Um, and I was one of the few of my year that came back to farming.
Speaker 2Um, you know, I was like farming and acting. There's two polarities for you, yeah, so like I was acting, I was acting, I was being an actor From my mum's side. She was like she was from the UK and her family were all you know, they were thespians, they were, you know, they were actors. And so I picked up a little bit of that and I ran with it for a little bit. I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do. I and I ran with it for a little bit. I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do. I was just like, okay, I know farming, I'm going to go and do a bit of the acting.
Speaker 2So I jumped on a stage for a bit, jumped in front of the camera, came to California, you know, worked a little bit with the New York Film Academy and met my wife. They basically didn't like the industry very much at all and you know I was travelling from here in northwestern New South Wales to Sydney for an audition, which is around about a seven-hour drive. Okay, so I'd hop off the tractor planting lupins and go and do an audition, which I usually get knocked back for anyway. So you know, sort of got jacked at that, headed overseas, went and travelled the world, africa, the Middle East, europe.
Speaker 2Came back home and, you know, struck up partnership with Dad and you know you're so full of optimism, you know nerves, but this idea of the future, like I had my wife basically like locked in, like I was absolutely in love, and you know, came back home and was, you know, straight back in the saddle and, you know, just alongside dad, and then dad was like, how about we buy some land, how about we buy some of this country's here? And I'm like, yeah, dad, whatever you say.
Speaker 1So he was ready for you to come back and wanted for you to grow it.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, he was. He was so keen, you know, like Dad's dream was to have all his sons come and work on the farm, like, work together, come together. Okay, that was his dream and I loved the idea of that dream. You know, from a 21-year-old or a 19-year-old, you know that idea was very attractive. It sounded awesome, so, and I was the first piece in that. So I came into that and it was like okay, let's do this, and then this is how it's going to be.
Speaker 2That was the one thing that was a struggle was this is how it's going to be. And was the one thing that was a struggle was this is how it's going to be. And it was like you know, your wives won't have anything to do with this. You know, this is strictly a man's only zone. You get to be but you work for yourself. That's the best thing about it, and so on and so forth. And you know there was a plan. The plan was, you know, basic, but it had the bones and it had it gave us direction.
Speaker 2So he had there was a leadership there and it was Dad. Dad was definitely the core of it. The thing was is that at that time? Well, I think there isn't necessarily a time where a son doesn't put their father on a pedestal. Like my dad, like I idolised him, 100% Idolised. Idolised him, yeah, Because I mean, like you see them go you see them take something and they build and create something and then you're part of that you see what they do to do that and you're like you get starry-eyed about it. Hey, like-.
Speaker 1You want to be part of it because it's like man starry-eyed about it hey, like you want to be, because it's like man, I'm like. It's a for me, like 100, like was the exact same thing. And to watch, hear how your dad expanded it like my dad started literally with nothing nothing, and I had so much respect, um, to like today, for for that.
Speaker 1And you, just, you, just you're like, you're so excited to be a part of that thing and to continue to grow it. And it's just like man, I'll do whatever you know. Dad really says what to do, uh, but it's, it's you. You then don't really develop, like it's not I'm going to say sense of self, but it's this, it's only going to be dad's way with highway in a way, but you still, you still feel like you want to go off and and not build your own thing. But there is like that, okay, like for me it was when I was 15, 16 or 17 or 18, like if dad would tell me to jump, it would be at how I think how I don't know, um, I think that gets us into trouble over time.
Speaker 1If we don't realize, like for me, if we don't, because I wasn't looking after myself, then at the end of the day I wasn't, I didn't have it. I don't say my own direction, but I never. That's where I started to have financial problems is because I was now focused on dad's operation and helping him sustain and grow his well. Meantime my finances and my direction were kind of left in second gear and that hurt me long term. Not intentionally, it wasn't my purpose, it wasn't dad's purpose, it was just the reality and the excitement of being back on the farm. But still, man, I hadn't really learned how to go through what dad went through, because by dad going through the fire he saw it through.
Speaker 1What dad went through, because my dad going through the fire, like he's solid, like you can feel that security of he just how many times do you call a dad when something breaks down and I can fix anything? My dad literally can fix anything. It doesn't matter if it's electrical, it doesn't matter if it's plumbing, like he'll fix it because, yeah, two at a time figure out how to do it himself and like I got spoiled, rotten by that and to a degree like had to learn some independence. But it's like when you see a man go through the fire and having him come out of it, man, there's a like, there's an attraction to that 100.
Speaker 2So, eddie, like, what, like. A little bit more on what like, because, I mean, this is intriguing to me because I, I like, your case is the first case that I know of where such a young man goes into so much debt. What compelled you to do that? Like what? What was the structure? Like you heard mine, like it was basically come back and dad was like, hey, come on, let's do this. There's a big old family um to to like. But but what was it that compelled you to go into to buy your land like that?
Generational Farm Transition and Struggles
Speaker 1yeah, so for for me, right? I came back, um, after so graduated high school, went to college only for a year and a half. I, uh, I had a bunch of credits I could carry, so I only really did a year and a half or three, three semesters in in college. So that ended my time at home. And here's the thing, what you said earlier, that that what hit for me was like, where else am I going to go? Like all I knew was home at that time, all I knew was farming and I didn't really know what else there was. I had, you know, 15, 20 had a cattle at home and and just wanted to farm with that and and and uh. So I ended up, uh, back at home and we had a neighbor, uh couple, who had we or my dad rented pasture from and who I had my cows at at that, you know, at that time. So there was a relationship with this font, with this farm. It's a hunt was 120 acres, had some pasture and some tillable ground, and they were up in their seventies and eighties, they were looking to to transition, to move into town, closer to family, and so there was this opportunity that came up and I was again, 18, 19 at that time and, uh, it was like here's an opportunity, right, it was just an opportunity that presented itself and it was. I look back at it now and it was without like a split thought that we're going to do this like that. That was the same way.
Speaker 1And so, going through that process, I here in the states we have what's called a farm service agency, which is I don't know, do they have that over in australia like they're the government program I wouldn't say government program, but it's the uh united. We have usda, which is like united states department of agriculture, that runs, runs the, the food and uh, the building all that. So part of part of the that one of the branches. It's called farm service agency and they're the ones that take your acres, they help you with the, the government programs, and it's your. They have one at your county office you go to and they also do loans and stuff you can get uh backed by the government for cheap interest. And so there's this beginning farmer loan. Uh, they have for like two and a half percent, and so I began doing paperwork for that and ended up got rejected from that. Uh, it was a technical thing there. It's another story on that.
Speaker 1But, um, to answer that like, I look back at it now like one, it was part of god's plan to this, to where you know, forge me into the man I am today. But at that time it was like this is what we're just going to do. Um, there wasn't any specific conversation. What's different about yours and mine situation? Coming back to the farmers, there was never any spoken. Hey, how are we going to build this farm? It was just, you're back on the farm, we're going to do whatever it takes. And that led down to a path of just.
Speaker 1It was hardship for me, right, because I didn't, I didn't yet go like I wouldn't say earn my stripes, but never really knew what it takes. My, my payments per year were 36 000, just winging it. You might say, and, uh it, it was just this. You're back here, let's get to work and like hope, kind of hope, and pray that other farm comes up, and that was the hope.
Speaker 1But again, there, it was just that, I think for my dad. I look back at it now and, and when you have two sons that are that want to come back? I look back at it now and I see all the pressure that was on my dad for that, because how do I, how do I do this? Like he's, you only pass down the farm once in your lifetime and you're afraid to screw it up, but you don't want your kids to go somewhere else. Because if, if there's another opportunity, you know, and there's just all of these things that are just unknown, um, but but mostly not talked about, right Cause there is that you just you don't know, my dad never was taught from his dad how to pass a farm down, right, so he was kind of first generation doing this thing and and not really knowing how to, how to do this, and so that's, I just jumped right in like, simply put, another farm mentor. I just jumped in like yeah, yeah that's that's it's.
Speaker 2It's like it I'll look at just like a from, like an outside, looking in it's. I think this is a common thing it it's like you had the opportunity there to like, do it on your own bat, the same way as your dad did it, in a way Like it was like a follow-up thing and he obviously saw the value in that because he allowed you to do that, which is a good thing. You know, you feel the pressures, you feel the sharks in the water straight off the mat and you do whatever it takes to get it done. You know, I think our approach was more sheltered than that. We don't have a development bank like a Commonwealth, like a development bank here in Australia that you can sort of get that. You go to the normal banks that everybody else goes to and you cop the interest that there is. There's no guarantee, so there isn't any government-funded banking system in Oz that'll help you buy land. But you needed a guarantor, you 100% needed a guarantor.
Speaker 2Dad basically went full guarantor. So it was his land. It was just my name was on it, um, uh, like as an introduction to it. So you, you know you became a partner. So then it was es and ja and jj, because it was mom and dad, and then me, uh, tagged on on the, on the letterhead, um, and, and then we bought land but it was like, never felt like it was mine, like it was it was dad's, which I didn't have a major problem with, like I just didn't. It was, you know, it always, always has been dad and it was just another extension of dad. So my focus was dad.
Speaker 1Basically that was it, um pretty much do what he wanted. But but and to help like there was. There was also a fulfillment in that there was a hey, I'm here helping dad like I'm helping him grow this thing 100.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, because it was what you like. You witnessed your father struggle, battle, constantly going through the pain, the struggles of the droughts and the and the and the floods and the and the financials. And we were very aware, like, like, similar to you, dad's, like my grandparents, bought this country out here, um, in the in 60s and um, and it was scrub like it was just bushland. It had all the timber cut out of it, because that's what it was all happening in this area. All the timber was all logged out and and they were basically, uh, clearing country by hand to to be able to cultivate or raise cattle or sheep or pigs. I had those pig farm there for a bit as well, and dad was just all in amongst that.
Speaker 2You know, um, I mean, my dad's hands are like like twice the size of mine, because from a very young age, from, like I think he was like he he was dragging pine logs by hand and stacking them to burn, uh, bit by bit, because it wasn't there, wasn't, it wasn't bulldozer work, it was basically bloody. You know chainsaw and axe work and you know dragging pines around, and you know he tells a story where, when he was boarding school and the sister, like the nurse saw his hands, she said she'd never seen the hands like that on a kid so young and she said you must have done a lot of work. And it's true, you know. But that's sort of like that gnarled knuckle, bent, fingered, bloody, huge sausage, like you know, used to grab your hand. You just fucking squeal because it was like some great maw of a paw, you know, crushing your bones. But it was a testament to the struggles. It was a testament to it was what was worn, it was that thing that like, it was almost like a badge of honour in one way. But at the same time you grew up knowing that you always knew that. You always knew that there was a struggle there.
Speaker 2So the thing was that your heart, like for us and all us all my brothers and I are in the same boat in this is that we wanted to help, like, we wanted to be able to relieve the pressure. We wanted to be able to serve our dad and mum, to help them have a better life in some way. That became the focus and I was the first one to sort of come back to that. It wasn't necessarily was it what I wanted to do. It doesn't really matter, it's what I did. So there must have been what I wanted to do, and so I went down this path.
Speaker 2But my focus was in the wrong place. My focus was all about pleasing him and my sense of, my sense of achievement. It was given to me by him, not by his choice, but by my choice, and I would take all my cues from him. If he was sad or angry, I thought I'm doing something wrong and guilt would come in and shame would come in. If there was something that was overly you know, that was overly stressful. If he'd chuck a wobbly because something wasn't happening, you felt like a punching bag and you took it and it wasn't because that's what he wanted. Like my dad loved me to the moon, loves me to the moon, he loves all us boys.
Speaker 2But he was not aware of what was unfolding in front of him, which was the heart and mind of a young son, had his eyes fixated on him as a glorified individual, godlike in some instances. I know that's maybe going a little bit far, but you basically got all your certainty from him and you worship what you, what you put your certainty into like. So that's where it came from and I reckon there's a, there's a stack load of young lads out there and and men, uh, both old and young, that have experienced this. Um. So so you sort of you, you fast track further down the line and, to go with your flea analogy, yeah, man, like I was a flea that was hitting the lid flat out. You know, I was a mother trucker and it was because, you know, you get to a point where you start to look around and you become a little bit, you know, disillusioned by the fact that you're not where you think you should be. There's something that's more where you think you ought to be, where you think you deserve to be.
Speaker 1Like you know, like you know there's something more. And you like how many men are going to resonate with that? Because, like you, you say young, or young or old. Because there's, there's men who are in their sixties. I've seen them. Right now they're still trying to get that, that certainty from their dad. They're still pleased that and they're afraid to go off and to not that building your own thing is, is, is the answer. But but they're, you're, you're, you're going to a source because you didn't either get it in your childhood. You didn't get that male certainty. Because, again, I look back at our generations, in our, our line here, it's the exact same thing whenever you did something wrong, you were yelled at uh, there isn't that go ahead.
Speaker 2I did you just like. It's always that correction, there's always a correction, correction, correction, like you said before. And it's like you start to get quiet. Like your, your idea is not valuable, um, all that sort of stuff and like it paints a pretty bleak picture. And for like, like if, if my dad was listening to this, he knows this, he knows this about because we've spoken about this a lot.
Speaker 2Okay, but it's not about that, it's not about, you know, like playing a little violin of sorrow for yourself. It's not that at all. It's the natural result of resentment. That happens because we're putting certainty in the wrong things and your focus is in the wrong place and you'd have absolutely no freaking idea how to change that. You're just pretty much being led by emotions and and you're like, okay, where do I go from now? It's like to to have the realization that it's, that it's not his fault and you've got to stop blaming dad. You've got to stop blaming dad. That's the true outcome here.
Speaker 2Like, you can't be blaming your father for all of your woes. He's a part of it, he's a pain point, but it sure as shit isn't. He's not the source of it. It comes from deeper within us and you know, no one can save you from yourself in that respect. Like you're on a one-way ticket, all in all, to destroy and destruct and cause pain and chaos inside of this space out of sheer frustration. Like I don't know. I reckon, like there are farmer's sons that have hit points of frustration, that that borderline insanity like I didn't think that was a possibility, but like that's how I sort of see it, like when I was in my pit, that was basically it, there was there.
Speaker 2It was like you were being, like, you know, in a pressure cooker and you'll be squeezed, and you were like you know, all you want to do is you want to get busted Everything about you down to your bones.
Speaker 2There's one other certainty down your bones is that I shouldn't be here like this. I should be growing, expanding, I should be, you know all these other things and you say you should, you should, you should, I should, I, I should be, I deserve, I deserve, I deserve. You throw yourself into the victim mentality, flat biscuit, like you just do. You go for it, um, and you're totally self-absorbed in that, in that, in that moment, and your focus is the man that you both love and and hate at in in in equal measure. It seems Like nobody gets you more angry, no one triggers you, not even your wife triggers you more than this man in your life, this focal point in your life. Same time, nobody can give you the same joy and release and relief as this man, which you desire, okay, and when you get it, you just want more of that, more and more.
Navigating Generational Trauma and Growth
Speaker 1Yeah, and that was the center thing we've been through, like that. What brought us to like where we our experience together was this whole. For for me, it was this you know, this shell of why am I not good enough? I don don't feel good enough, but yet, for me, contradictory. On the farm, it's because there was, I had, this duality of pain and resentment towards my dad, but yet this love and this desire and this excitement, because I was working with dad and and it felt like I was serving him. And you, you know, there is that excitement of man. I'm going to take over my dad's legacy and continue this on. And, and you, you know, there is that excitement of man. I'm going to take over my dad's legacy and continue this on. And there was, you get that like this is where I'm good enough.
Speaker 1But then, as soon as something happens, or there's something that breaks, or you, you call your dad and say I just have a question right About something, but he's trying to run the planter and he's frustrated, so he's got all his emotions. And then you got a question right and, uh, you know, he's not in, he hasn't been trained or taught how to deal with his own emotions. He's got his shame and his stuff and then you answer and then you're the trigger point for that emotional load and then he takes it off onto you and then you're back down there in the pit, you're angry, you're like that was me. I was flipping out there Like it got really bad for me towards the end, where I just I that was me. I was flipping out there Like it got really bad for me towards the end, where I just wanted to be done, I wanted to burn the fricking ship and just be done with it.
Speaker 1But it was so contradictory because there was still that, that, that that search I was looking for of just trying to just be good enough, because I was under the pressure for me at that young, just financially. So I felt like this double edged sword of okay, I've got to figure something out, just so I can make ends, meet and try to figure, you know, but yet being stuck in this victim mentality, like you said and I struggled with it for a long time and finally getting to the point and getting and walking through that fire of man, this shame and this stuff that I have it's not mine, like it's it's my dad and it's my grandpa. It's like this thing got passed down. They've never been taught or trained how to look within themselves and see exactly what they're carrying it's not theirs and how they are operating, how it affects everybody else around you. Because on the family farm, when you're around everybody every single day, those little jabs that you feel, where that anger comes up, you're like I want to say something but I don't want to.
Speaker 1You know that carries day to day to day and pretty soon you're just like for me, you're stuck here on this. It's like you're afraid to do anything. You're afraid to, but that's the victim mentality. You have to be willing to look into this thing and say I'm willing to do whatever this takes here. And that's where I got, because I literally had to do something to survive, like financially, I was under so much pressure where it's like okay, there there is, there's something happening here.
Speaker 1But I have to really rise and to become a man Like I have to stop being the victim and blaming my dad, blaming everything that happened. And most men never get to that point, like we see this men in their fifties and sixties that are still blaming their dad for what happened, and I get it. I understand it because it's it, it, it's. It's hard. It's hard to go through this. It's hard to forgive your dad and I've had difficult conversations, blowouts, in the past to get to where we're at today, which is this okay, I see you as for who you are a man, we've had, we have shame, we have these things that we do uncertainty.
Speaker 1But I had to look at myself and realize how I was showing up, because I wasn't, I wasn't helping the piece to the puzzle at all. I was anything making it worse, like dumping fire onto, dumping gasoline onto this fire, um, but but as, as we are farmer's sons who have this, this deeper burning passion to farm, we also have had to look in the mirror and realize the shit that was done to us and to take a hammer and start chipping away at it. Yeah, it's part of the training and the tools that we we've been through. Man, it was not an easy journey, but, like now, this, we're not going to do this to our kids. Like this thing is we're, we're, we're looking at this thing and we're not going to do this to our kids. Like this thing is we're, we're, we're looking at this thing and we're facing this thing head on and in tackling, walking through that fire, in that pit, every man, every man has to go through like if you it's got it's got to come to a point, like it has to.
Speaker 2They, they, they easy. Like you, like, like we came to a point, like to me, like it was that it was really and this was like sort of really addressing the pit here. You've got to have a good look around and recognize where you're at, where you're truly at, because if you're sitting inside of a hamster wheel of insanity and you're going around the same places over and over again, it ain't getting any better. You know it's only going to last for so long. One or two ways One. You're going to last for so long. One or two ways One. You're going to drive yourself into a tree. Okay, you just had enough, you can't take it anymore. Or you're going to actually start questioning this entire thing. You're going to start actually wanting to reflect on what it is that it is internally that is causing this issue.
Navigating the Depths of Despair
Speaker 2And this is the conversations. These are the conversations that we need to have, because we've been there, yeah, like we've been, like I've been there, I've been to the point where I was like what would it be like if I just drove this fucking car into this, into this tree? What would it be? Just? What would be like like I'm just so done, like I'm fucking done, done, but on the other side, it like then then coming through that and going this isn't you know. It's like dropping to your knees and surrendering and submitting to God and saying what do I do? Where do I go from here? Truly, what is it about me? What's happening inside of me? What do I need to see? What is it about me, what's happening inside of me, what do I need to see and what's the next step? You know, like that shift of focus, that shift, that total reframe of you know it's all their problem, it's all their fault and I'm the victim to wait up. This is on me, this is my problem. There's something that's going on that I'm not doing right here, because this is not how it's supposed to be, no matter what's going on, because there are people inside vastly worse situations you could say comparatively okay that are operating with certainty, clarity and happiness inside of those spaces. Like you know, we're not being chased down by machete-wielding cannibals.
Speaker 2Here we are being, you know, we are struggling inside of a family dynamic and a whole lot of head noise that seems to entrap us inside of our own you. You know our own issues and likes to keep us there under that thumbprint and that's the devil's game. So, like you know, and when we talk about these sorts of things, we want to talk about and we want to illuminate that there is a path, that there is a way, that there is a gap, a way to cross this enormous gap that sits from where we sit right now, inside of this dark, seemingly bottomless pit of shit and pain, to actually being able to rise above that or getting out of that pit and recognizing where certainty lies, why it's important, why it's on our capacity to reframe our mind and restructure this gig so that we're not going in there causing chaos inside of not only our own lives, but our kids lives, our wives lives, our in-laws wives, uh, lives, our, our father's lives, our mother's lives, our brother's lives, everybody else around us. Like you know, we, we vomit that shit out, um, and and it causes a lot, of, a lot of distraction for everybody else in the family. So, you know, and we don't want to do that it just makes you feel like it sends you further down the pit.
Speaker 2So, like, pick, whichever motivation you hold to right now, whether it be yourself, your family, your kids or the most important one is your faith in Christ, or your faith in God, and use that to move you away from this constant hamster wheel of insanity and towards this means of being able to pick yourself up out of that, like to be picked up out of that and move past this, because you know, coping only goes so far. You've sometimes got to deal with this stuff and like taking it from your experience my experience, as we'll go further into this, further as we have these conversations, andy, I reckon man like it's just real bro, to this, further as we have these conversations and, um, I reckon man like you have to go into it like it is, it is, and, and there's again.
Speaker 1We've known like our journeys, we've, we. We had to go through it and it's not christ, god is the one that led us through the pit like we know this we, we and we.
Speaker 2But there's a real if you don't know it now, you'll find a relevant. If you don't know it now, you'll find out later. But if you don't know that now like for those listening to what Andy just said Christ led us through the pit. If you may not feel like that's the case at all, you know whatever it is within your faith. If there's no faith at all, you know, would have you considered that that's something that needs to change or something that needs to seriously consider?
Speaker 1sorry, and to consider this, because consider the seeking, because I think, well, we came to and your, your situation. Where you were at, I was in the exact same spot. I was on my knees. I literally was planning out how am I going to end my life, literally, and I don't think people understand how real, how real this is, like this is. This is not a joke and we both can attest to this because we've been in that spot.
Finding Hope and Healing Together
Speaker 1When you have, when you have generations of farm like if you, let's say, you're the third or fourth generation farmer and you begin to make some very bad financial decisions and you're in a position where you're going to start telling yourself a story you are better off gone Because you're carrying all of this and I've heard people say this as well you tell yourself a story I would be better if I was not here and that is the most story you will ever tell yourself. But you get to that point and that's exactly where, where, where I got to as well is is this finding like I didn't know. What the hell am I gonna do? Like I, how am I gonna make this another year? All the shame and guilt of this 23 four-year-old who's gonna plan to farm the rest of his life and he's coming down to his last couple years of farming. Like, you deal with this, you hold on to this, but what I couldn't see and I think this is where this is headed is like I couldn't see how selfish that was at that time. So pretty much what we're saying is is you would rather end your life and turn away from your family than to walk into the pit and the fire, like that's. But that's the reality, because we don't know what's happening. But what happened for me and you was well, there was a knocking on the door. It was Christ, like God was, was grabbing and shaking us, picking us up. But we you get to that point and that's a decision you have to make is to say and realize okay, god is doing something with my life, like there's a reason that this is all happening, there's a reason for it. And that began my journey of really realizing and looking in myself this scene.
Speaker 1I was part of the problem, but I guess how long I wanted to fight that off. I wanted to blame dad, I wanted to blame market prices, blame all these things, when truly it was God in Christ working through my heart and working through to see that there's a bigger. There's a bigger focus here. There's something different here, but you and I both know in, in, in in the pit and walking through the pit. Yeah, guys, like there's a pit that has to be walked, there is is, but there's light on the other side of it, yeah, and then, and like it is, it really is.
Speaker 2It's a matter of like, where you, where you, find your feet, so, so anybody's out there now just listening to this and this is hard. Like there's there's a lot of heavy stuff here and we won't be. It's not all heavy, it's not gonna be heavy. We're gonna have a laugh, we're gonna. We're gonna have a laugh every now and again. There's just some things here, just relevant, that you can. You know there's gonna be some stories and yarns here that that, like, we're going to have around this, but like, if you are listening to this there is. The thing we're pointing towards is that there, there's, there's, there's hope here, there's hope here, there's hope. And don't lose it, because if you're struggling inside of this space right now, know that there are so many of us that have both been there or are there, that are alongside you, and that you're not alone, and that this is something that you know. If what we're talking about resonates with you, then you know it's time to start reaching out. You know, because there are those, there are men that are prepared to help. You know, I know, like you, andy, you've got, you know, farmer on Fire, and you've got, you know, your podcast and you've got your program. You've got a live event coming up in July. You know your podcast and you've got your program. You've got a live event coming up in July, you know, specifically directed at this kind of thing.
Speaker 2Okay, over in the States. Okay, over in Australia, we've got Sovereign Sons. Okay, you can join the Crucible program and things like that, so that you know there is that as well. Then we've also got the backup of Warrior Week over in the States. If you're prepared to go all, all in, on, on, uh, wherever you're at, I mean, like there are ways about this there are good teachers and good coaches who can take you through the frames, um, no matter where you're at. No matter where you're at, you know it's not like you're going to bring anything different to the table, shit like ball. You know, whatever it might be, um, whatever you're, you're, you're currently going through the guilt, the shame, um, of of what it might be, and you know, or it's time to step into the light, because you know, screw this duck running and hiding all the time, because it's just, you don't, you're staying in the circle.
Speaker 1So let's, um, let's, you know, make the move yeah, into a certain point, guys, like you get to the, you get to the, to that point where you have to do make a decision. But you also have to realize that for a long time, like, uh, the, the darkness like that, that that will serve you for a long time. Like it will because it's comfortable, I think you and I can agree. But it will because it's it's comfortable, I think you and I can agree. But it's like things continue to get more painful and you realize you kind of have a decision to make. Uh, you can do something about it and walk the path.
Speaker 1And that's the, that's the encouragement is like there is hope, like there is a, there's a life out there, my friend, that is that is. It opens it, there's an open door for you. That that, that that light shines into the darkness. Like it, there, there is a place there for you to come through. That that is going to shed light onto what you're feeling right now. Like that's the hope, there's hope there, there's good things that come from that, and that's the encouragement is to look into what is being searched inside of you, because what you're going to recognize is that there, there are things inside of you that need to be addressed.
Speaker 1Like there, there just simply is we, you and I, as men, like we're going to battle with temptations, with lust, to the end of our lives, like that's just our nature of men. But there's a, there's a process and there's, as we've been trained on together, like as we we grow less and less of the flesh and into the spirit, like guys, there's just this peace and there's that freedom that comes from. But there's, there's a, there's a hope there when you begin to investigate and realize you're being investigated, uh, but there's a mirror to look into and that's that's really you and I's job is just, we're just holding the mirror and walking with you, like that's, that's, that's it. Like there's there's, uh, there's, there's such hope there.
Speaker 2There is and uh, we we know it's not easy.
Speaker 1Like it's hard, it's it sucks, man like it just bloody sucks, but it's not asking for help like that's the thing, my friend, like that's as strong yeah, you gotta be humble.
Speaker 2You gotta be humble like you don't like and that's a really hard thing, it's like you're reaching out for help and be like being being humble enough to to to like let the bullshit go just being raw with where you're at like it's hard work, but that's you know. Another conversation Again. We will go into a lot of that and whatnot. But really, all in all, I think you know we're just having this conversation today, don't you reckon, andy, like it's just good to sort of hear I think it's been really valuable just to hear, like where you started, where you came from, and just those initial bits, you know, just those initial like.
Speaker 2We all have that sort of a gig where everyone has a kickoff, everyone has a starting point, whether you went into hundreds of thousands of dollars for the deck because you bought your own land at the age of 19, or or whether you, you, uh, you, you quit the um, you quit the, quit the cameras and the acting uh, uh gig to to come back and work for your old man, um, you know, everybody's got their stories. It's uh, and it just sort of like when we hit that, then we hit the ground running and then you know, so, like when that story is like, what's what resonates like man I can tell you really in in the tell you to me.
Speaker 1It's like, until you really know a man's pain and what he's been through to me, you really don't know a man. And that's what I deal with in these small town communities right here. You know, I'm in a thousand eleven hundred percent. I don't like, I don't have nothing against it. But when you're dealing, everybody knows your, your backstory, knows that you've been through like you're. That's that hamster wheel we were talking about where you stay in that and you never, you don't.
Speaker 1We call it the field, like a field to walk into, to where, man, you are seen for who you are. You're not crazy, you're not alone. And like you, you're seen like you're. You are not alone because the moment you tell yourself you're not alone is when you, you, you pretty much check out sedate with alcohol, whatever that, that. But then, like my friend, like there's, there's such a possibility for you, uh, by that, and we're just best being vessels here with our own personal experiences, um, like it's just no coincidence, man with your dad and brother, like same situation here, australia versus us, but these conversations that truly give a man permission to feel what he's feeling. It was no judgment yeah, 100, I think.
Speaker 2Yeah, so, like when we like look at, looking back at this, just this conversation alone it's recognize where you're at. If you've got shit, if you're in that pit, then own it, because that's the first step Recognize that not everything's hunky-dory, it doesn't matter whatever else you're sedating your life with and you're telling yourself it's A-OK, but you know deep down, you know where you're at. Just so, coming out with the clarity and the honesty around that, that's going to be your first step to the right direction. Um, second of all is that there's so many of us that are all in this man, like that's the case. So, you know, don't think that you're alone, you're not. Um.
Speaker 2And thirdly, that there is a thing you can do. There are things, there are places you can do because we're we're problem solvers by nature. That's men, you know. We want to, we want to do something about it. We're not guys that like to just sit on a couch and talk it all out. Okay, that's not what works for us. Yeah, we can. We need to talk. Yeah, we need to talk about some stuff.
Speaker 2There's no two ways about talking. It's important, but then we need to be able to action it. We need to be able to action it, we need to be able to do something about it, and that's where I think a lot of counselling and things like that goes awry, because it's like it's all about the investigation. Once you've got it, okay, now what? Well, now you can see it. I get that, but now what? So there is both the way, and then there is something you can do to bring you from the pit and start, you know, shedding that light, showing that, that that path into your life of hope that's going to reframe the way that you're thinking so that's the beauty.
Speaker 1But we got rolling here in conversations here in the future again, guys, it's like you resonate with this. There's, there's a, there's a message here. You just realize, man, okay, I'm one of these men like there, there is hope. Uh, this, this is what we're here to do, as Joshua said, as he's running in Australia. We got sovereign sons, where he's got his program running there, running men through again the crucible program, where you're able to investigate and look in the mirror but also realize that there's a possibility and there's action that you can take. That's right in front of your nose, just willing to make that jump. And then also his man's land podcast, which is again Joshua diving deeper into specific relationships as his wife is also jumping on there and having relevant conversations. It's relevant as a farmer dealing with marriage inside of the family operation, things like that.
Speaker 1And then here in the US I'm running Farmer on Fire. You got the Farmer on Fire podcast, where it's the men coming in again doing the work, the investigational work, but having a way and seeking the possibility and just seeking the light at the end of the day, seeking the truth. And that's what we're here to do, guys, inside of the Farmer's Son podcast is just bringing light, bringing hope, but also giving that permission that you are not alone and that there is hope, and there is just a massive chapter here. So, joshua man, I'm excited. Man, just today's conversation alone opened up so much inside of me and I know our listeners here as well it's just going to open up the gates here wider and wider as we go deeper into our next episodes and continue these conversations that are just relevant, 100%, man.
Speaker 2Beautiful, Beautiful guys.
Speaker 1So we'll wrap up today's episode. Joshua. I'll give you kind of any closing comments you want to make here to our listeners. But again, guys, stay tuned for what we got running here next and I'm excited.
Speaker 2It's all groovy with me, man, let's get on with it and kick rocks, beautiful guys.
Speaker 1Awesome. Thank you, guys for tuning in to the Farmer's Son podcast. We'll be back here again on our next episode, going deeper into our conversations, and we'll talk all at you later. You.
