Mans Land.
"Men are born to be leaders. Good or bad, every man leads — his family, his business, his body, and his home as the spiritual head.
But in today’s world, that truth feels alien. Taboo. And as we’ve drifted from it, we’ve seen the results: fractured families, broken communities, men uncertain of who they are and what they’re for.
On the land, the challenge is clear — tame the soil, raise the stock, grow the crops. But the hardest battles aren’t in the paddocks. They’re in the pressure cooker of unhappy families, poor seasons, banks at the door, and a body breaking down. That’s when chaos reigns, and the question rises: ‘What’s it all for?’
Too many men try to answer that question without God. But He is the only certainty beyond what we can control.
This is Man’s Land — where we talk about the struggles, the victories, and what it means to lead as men under God’s design."
Mans Land.
Farming Against the Flood: Navigating Nature's Wrath and Family Strife
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Forgiveness isn’t just a word; it’s a transformative power that can heal and build stronger relationships. Andy and Joshua open up about their personal paths to forgiveness, recounting their battles with anger and resentment towards their fathers. They highlight how letting go of deep-seated animosities can lead to genuine healing and improved family and business ties. As they discuss the significance of the Farmer on Fire event, they emphasize the need for farmers to face their emotional challenges head-on, fostering a supportive community dedicated to real change and accountability. Join us for an episode that promises not just stories, but solutions to some of the most profound challenges faced by those in the farming profession.
Challenges of Farming Family Dynamics
Speaker 1Hi , I'm Andy Schrapp and I'm Joshua Borowski , and this is the Farmer's Son Edition Podcast , where we're talking the pains and potentials of being a farmer's son in today's farming industry .
Speaker 2Take a back and lend us your ear for a bit as we go international to cover some of the most pressing issues facing aspiring sons and family farming today . So how you doing , bro ?
Speaker 1I am too much rain , way too much rain .
Speaker 2Way too much rain . We're both sitting on either side of the world here and we're both playing about too much rain . I'm not going to say that too loudly because my listeners over here might be from South Australia or Western Australia and they'll kick me in the dick for that , Although I don't know how WA is going , but I know that parts of South Australia are in drought and Victoria , even southern New South Wales , are pretty dry as well . But yeah , so I'm going to be cautious of that . But yeah , it's crazy hearing the amount of rain . You said you're going to get eight inches .
Speaker 1Yeah , eight inches they're talking . There's a forecast map that came out . I want to say it was uh , friday , um here and uh for a big part of central minnesota and mostly iowa . So our state's over here you know we got kind of the corn belt or the midwest and you know I'm from up there . Up here in Minnesota We've gotten almost 20 , 22 inches this spring here this week we're starting here on Saturday until next Friday we're talking another four to six , up to eight inches . Some pockets will get up to eight . We are soaked , we're saturated .
Speaker 2Do you flood , do you guys flood out ?
Speaker 1yeah , so we , we're close to there's some river bottom ground that's . That's just south of us , and there's a pretty good chance that they're going to be flooding after after this , because the river is already full , like our river , our main . Uh , we've got to there's a palm d'etre river , but then it goes to the minnesota river , um , and it's like it's . It's false , it'll be . I'm guessing if we get four to five inches , like we'll be , we'll be flooding some fields out for sure .
Speaker 2Yeah , right like and and what's your like ? What's your topography like ? Is it sort of like ? Is it quite ink like ? Does it ? Does it range a lot or is it just sort of like ? What does it ? You got flat space . That's like where we are over in northwest new south wales . A lot of those are just sort of like . You've got flat space , it's like where we are over in North West New South Wales a lot of flat area . It doesn't sort of run away really quick , it just sort of spans right out . So you have like these ocean views , like 2022 is just like an ocean view , like you go up in a helicopter and it's water as far as I can see , with that kind of rain that you're talking that's what the landscape would look like for us .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's , you know , it's pretty , it's it's for for . Around here it's pretty hilly for the most part , so you've got not a lot of runoffs , but there's a lot of , um , bigger ditches that come off of some of these . You know , rolling , rolling I'd call them rolling prairies , probably the best way to , to , to consider . But then there's some areas where it's very , very flat too . So there's a lot of ditches that that take , take the water off . Um , the problem with these hills is that when it rains so fast , like our , some of our fields out here , it's , you know it , it gushes . It starts to cut through the field . We've been getting very heavy downpour , so it'll cut . We got inlets and stuff and tiles to to try to take the water underneath , but when it rains so hard , coming off the hills , it begins to cut through the field , and that's been the problem this year . So when you're now , when you're going out , it's brain . You got these gullies , you've got these washouts , you gotta washout . So you got to be really careful .
Speaker 2So you don't , you don't really back , yeah , sprayers especially , you're bouncing , you're bouncing , yeah , yeah , there you go an airbag or an axle or a hub , um , yippee , no , no man , that's uh , that's nuts , hey , um . So I wanted to talk , um , I just wanted to sort of uh sling this one off , you andy , because it was something we touched on last week's conversation , a week before um . Last week's conversation , which was the um , and it's something that I think that , like , we're touching on this morning a little bit as well . But one was the distracting nature of being in a bad head space with , with dad on the farm , and how distracting that can be to your ability to produce and what that means for our figures . Like , what are the opportunities lost inside of this landscape , farming and family business when our minds are constantly in the turmoil of , you know , wanting to have it over your partner or the , you know the , the bloke you're supposed to be in business with day in and day out ?
Speaker 1it's crazy talking , you know , we were just talking earlier how this is . This is really where I'm exposed in , in , in working through that mentality process , because I don't think a person truly what for me , like I , I didn't realize how much time and energy I worry about what my dad is going to think and how , how I'm going to present a new idea to him inside the business aspect . So like working , working every single day , and this is the hard , hard thing . I don't think people like you and I don't have . We have the awareness around it now , but I think before for me , I don't think people really understood the amount of pressure and the amount of energy that we go through on a day-to-day working alongside your dad every single day and not leaving room for how to actually grow or even like expand a business , trying to figure out , working through how to make different paths for revenue . Because for us and our farm it's I've got a brother and a dad , you know , and then me , so you got three families .
Speaker 1Well , the reality is , for this business , it's not enough for one person or for three families to come back and to farm off of just the land , and so you've got to really think about how am I going to actually produce a business that isn't connected to dad because you got it's . It's so complex , like this is . What I'm realizing is just the complexity and , as you said , the mental load . Like there's no room right now for most farmers , like there's just there's just no room to to clearly think about the business as a business versus the emotional peace and the stress and the , the anger and the resentment , the lack of communication , the lack of direction .
Speaker 1Right , because it's like for me , I struggled . If I had an idea and I bring it to dad , dad doesn't agree with it . Maybe I didn't communicate it the best to him , or maybe he's just not a communicator . So then you shut down as a man because you're like well , I can't bring this idea to dad because he's just going to shoot it down . I feel like crap in the meantime .
Speaker 2And that's the thing , though , isn't it ? It's like you know you not , um , like , dad's not there to try and like , pull you down . This is the thing . I had these conversations with dad all the time he's not there to try and pull you down . He doesn't want to do that . Like , yeah , dad's love us . Like that's the thing .
Speaker 2That's really hard for us to sort of get our heads around this and , all right , you know we're going to the touchy feeling here . If you don't like that too fucking bad , but , um , like , but our dads love us and they want what's best for us thing is that they don't know how to communicate . They were never taught how to do this . Uh , the culture around this kind of thing is has been twisted and and and shifted over the generations . Uh , for , for whatever reasons , um , and and maybe that's topic for another , another conversation some other time but but it's like , when you make a mistake or you have an idea and the idea doesn't fit the mold according to their knowledge , their experience , things like that , instead of being able to communicate it in a way that we then look at the problem of our idea constructively , impartially , without the emotional backlog of all the feelings that we're denying from all the water that's under the bridge . We don't focus on what's actually , you know . We don't look at the outcome . We're not even paying attention to what the fucking problem is on the farm anymore . We're paying attention to the fact that all we want to do is slap our dad in the face or shake him and say , hey , it's my idea , just back off . Or you know why ? Won't it ever be
Facing the Cycle of Family Dysfunction
Speaker 2enough ?
Speaker 2All these stories , you know , these ideas , these thoughts in our heads that we believe and we operate from these beliefs , they're the thing that really direct our behavi , behaviors and our attentions and we miss the buck and the and then it's like a self um , it's a self-procligating or self-fulfilling prophecy , almost like like you you , you basically are um proving dad right in his fear that you know he hasn't quite got his shit together enough to be able to take this on effectively . Because every time he sort of triggers that inside the son's mind , the son then goes into a victim mentality and is distracted entirely from what it is that he needs to be focusing on , and so it just then presents more shitty reactions , responses , behaviours , and on we go , so it just keeps on proving the point over and over again . That sucks balls Like it really sucks , and it's like , okay , how do we , how do we get away from that ? Like how do we stop this mad circle , because shit's gone broke .
Speaker 1Yeah , and and you begin to take that out on those around you . So you begin to carry whatever story you have , whatever anger because I think for most , for me , it was , it was , it was , it was anger , right , like I carried all this , this and I loved how you use self fulfilling prophecy , because that's exactly what it is . It's like you have an idea , you have something you want to correct your dad on , but your mind , when you're talking to him , you're like , well , he's never going to change . And so when you get into that conversation with them and then you get that hint because you can sense it for for most of us it's a sense like you can just say I don't think he's going to change . So you get into that conversation you're like , oh yeah , see , he doesn't want to change . That just proves a story that my dad's an asshole .
Speaker 1My dad's yeah is versus where we're headed is like how can I have a better conversation ? And and how can I get clear ? What can I do to get clear on what I'm trying to actually get out of this conversation ? Because it's all emotions , that's all this is , is just this emotional . You know , carry that we , that we have into these conversations and it's like there's no clarity around what you're trying to get and it almost you enjoy the chaos because it serves you , like that chaos serves you to stay in that place of frustration and that story you have , because you're just wanting to prove again . You have some anger that's not dealt with .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah yeah , that's a great place , great place to hide , isn't it ? It really is . And that's the shit . Like it's hard . It's like we know how hard it is to recognize that . That's exposing , that's really exposing stuff .
Speaker 2You like it as much as you hate it . You like it . You don't know how to operate outside of it and you become very comfortable in this discomfort . It's what you know and you become very comfortable in this discomfort . It's what you know and you feel justified . You can constantly justify . There's always going to be a shoulder to sob on . There's always going to be an ear that'll hear and give sympathy to your situation because it's so fucking hard .
Speaker 2I get it , but it isn't going to help you . It's not going to stop . It's going to keep you in the , the , the hamster wheel of your emotional state over and over again , whilst your farm is slowly losing traction and , as you can sort of see , in the economic , uh and and financial situation of the world and of this industry in particular , you don't have much room to screw up before you lose it all . I mean over here in Oz , like one of the biggest things that Australian like . The suicide rate over here is freaking ridiculous in Australian farmers Just men popping themselves off the financial burden , the pointlessness of it , the undealt with stories inside of their heads , inside of their hearts , the hopelessness of it all . And they're leaving not only their farms but they're leaving their families and the great , enormous , cavernous trench that they create as they take themselves out of the picture . And it's fucked , just putting it out there . It's fucked .
Speaker 2And we go more and more into mental health and mental health and mental health . But there's shit here that the man needs to to face , he needs to go in and fight . Like . We've become such a passive peoples andy , like us western blokes . We're so fucking passive like where's the ? You need to have the . There's got to be fire in the belly here when we're attacking these kinds of issues and these kinds of stories . Because this shit will mean the difference between the fruit that you yield for the legacy to come or not , whether your piece and parcel of land just becomes another figure on a corporate's bloody page okay or it becomes a place of freedom , a place of of healthy upbringing and raising children and generations to come further down the line , that can be loved and used for what it is that God gives you the vision to use it for .
Speaker 1I want to go the vein that you said around the fire , because here's the thing is it takes courage . You , as a man , have to step into this . You , you do . But the the the thing is like considering , uh , what's going to ? What's going to one , what it's going to change if you don't do anything , like what , what , what you and I , and I think there's a story . I think there's a story , these men that are deciding not to do anything .
Speaker 1Is you believe you've justified a story that says nothing is going to change ? Hmm , that , no , it's just the way it is . That is the most fucked up story you could ever have , that nothing is going to change and that you can't do anything about it Because that serves you . That goes back to the emotional victimness . It serves me to do nothing .
Speaker 1It serves me to do because when you go out and you look around and say , look at situations , yeah , this is never going to change , it's never going to change , my dad's never going to change . Maybe your dad doesn't change , but how about you ? Have you looked into the mirror and said , oh , I can change , I can do something here and change the situation ? But again , as I loved how you said , yeah , we're becoming a bunch of passive people that have accepted and tolerated bull crap , and the thing is that's hard for me to see . See , is that that same ? That the choice you make , they're the choice that is , you have the opportunity and you have the freedom , free will , to choose what you want and what you will do , but when you choose to do nothing , you're actually choosing a life for your family to suffer .
Speaker 2It's not a good suffering . Yeah , that's true , it's basically giving up , it's basically quitting . We can sit here as farmer's sons and we can sit inside of this pocket of fucking pity party . I know this sounds like a bit of a kick in the dick because and like , don't for a second think that I don't understand , oh , that we don't understand where the fuck you're coming from . If you're hearing this now , you're inside of this pit . I get it like if you're , if you're right here right now listening to these words , and you're like but you don't understand my dad . I fucking fucking do . I got a dad too . Okay , he's a hard ass , he's a builder , you know . He's passionate about the land , but at the same time , he's just like you know , same as any of them , like some might be better and worse in certain levels . The thing is is that the one thing you're not going to change is that you're not going to change him . But that's what you keep pointing the finger to . That's what we always get . That's for sure what I did .
Speaker 2I kept on reading all the self-help books and pointing my finger at my dad , saying you've got to change . You should read this . Take on this lesson here , let me illuminate your mind and should read this . Take on this lesson here . Let me illuminate your mind . And it's bullshit . It's like fuck man . Actually , what you're reading apply to yourself . Couldn't do that . That's too packed full of ego , scared , shitless of where I ought to be , what I ought to have , the entitlement that I was holding around , this whole idea of you know . Well , you know you need to move over . Now . I'm capable and competent and you know , don't you think I can do this ? Don't you think I can do this by myself ?
Speaker 2Look , it starts when you might be in your 20s , but that doesn't end . I know fellas that are 40 , 50 years of age and they're still struggling with this same scenario . You know , like 50-year-olds and plus dads are 90 , 80 , still gripping on to those reins . You know , still not letting go , still gripping onto those reins . You know , still not letting go . And it's like . This is how it was explained to me from an old coach of mine .
Speaker 2It's like a tug of war . And this tug of war , this is a coach of mine , his name was Chris Morrison and he used to say you know , basically you're on two ends of the rope , okay , and the game begins when you both start pulling the shit out of the rope . The game stops when either one gets pulled over okay , in which case he gets mud on his face , he's dragged through the dirt and he loses or one of them just lets go of the rope . So we have to make a decision . Do we want to be holding on this rope until we pull our dad's faces through the mud , dishonoring him in every way that is available to us , because our egos , our fears and our hatreds and the heaviness and hardness of our hearts have just decided that ? That's all there is for it .
Speaker 2It's just about okay , just going to beat him into submission , or do we let go of the rope ? Do we actually have a look at what is happening inside of us that we need to change , what is actually going on that we need to submit to instead of trying to struggle with all the time , which is this other person ? So there's consideration there , I think , and I think this goes for not just guys inside of family farming , but all family business . There's a whole range of blokes out there who are doing the same . I've got a mate who's got you know he's been in a family business for ages and you know same stories . You know , he basically was talking to him and when he was explaining we were sort of we were in a group and explaining it . He was he fucking . He just got it , he knew it . It's just this father son relationship that crosses the border of business and what that means . It adds that other dimension that is very hard to navigate effectively and it exposes us , has to expose .
Speaker 1It demands a response , which is actually not a bad thing it is such a good thing and I think the hard thing to get to is to see the truth and to feel the exposure you know , because it's very easy to point the finger .
Speaker 1It's very easy to point it back to somebody when you don't want to feel . You don't want to feel the feelings that you don't want to feel , you don't want to take in . Really , what it is at the end of the day , is it's responsibility , like the times that we've showed up , the times that I showed up and yelled or the times that I would . You know , I was that guy on the rope . You know , greg , and my dad drew it 100 percent .
Letting Go of Family Resentment
Speaker 1That all this anger , all this rage , story after story around what my dad did , how much of an asshole he was , he doesn't care about me . Because when you begin to believe after a while , it's like man , yeah , dad doesn't give a crap about me . No , if you break it down and you actually see the man for who he is and what you've done and how the relationship is actually working , you're going to see a lot of gaps and a lot of exposures and it's going to come back to yourself because you've either held something against him , like I did , but there's going to be a place for two for forgiveness . I mean , that's a very hard place to get to , but you must do it because the cost of you not forgiving and the cost of you not going through this is to do the same thing to your kids . Nothing , nothing changes and you justify it Like it's .
Speaker 1It's the anger , my friend , like it's it's whatever you feel and you're holding , because what you're doing , this took me a long time to figure out and a lot of what you , I was placing , my lack of results , my life , my unhappiness , I was putting that in my dad's corner , you might say , and pointing the finger saying you did this . You're to blame , you're the reason why my life is shitty , you're the reason why the farm sucks . You're the reason and you'll go to the point of you're the reason why freaking markets are down today . You're the reason for this . It's just about pointing the finger . You'll find it for anything and everything , but yet you're stuck in this . As you said , pity party , and I get it , I 100 get it , but you're . You need to understand that you're . You're rowing a boat with one paddle and you're going in , circle after circle after circle after circle after circle and you'll , and you'll always find evidence .
Speaker 2You're always going to find evidence to justify the story that you're telling yourself , like if it is for the markets or stuff like that . It's like , well , you know , if dad had just listened or had had the foresight just to consider these new ways of being able to use these different strategies that are now available to us , yada , yada to us that I was looking into , okay , I've been looking into for months and he just didn't want to do it and now we would miss the opportunity , then we would be so much further ahead . Okay , you're always going to find all of this evidence to bring up , to suggest that he is fucking your life in some way , shape or form . And I challenge and I would have anybody consider that if your relationship , if the way that you're showing up inside of this relationship was vastly different , was more grounded and certain , had a greater sense of love and appreciation , rather than the hostility that is brought to the table day in and day out . Every time you step out that door , it's like I remember , like getting out of bed , and this wasn't that long ago at all , but getting out of bed and going , fuck , I better report to dad , fuck , I better report to that , like I better make sure that you know . I wonder I better make sure that he's across or that I know what's going on and he knows what's going on . And thinking all the time when the fuck is this going to end ? Like just not wanting this , I don't want this sort of shit , and it's just been shitty . It was like having a shitty job , um , and and like for me , I got so confused like this . This is the . This is how powerful this sort of thing is , this is how important this is .
Speaker 2I think we we touched on how powerful it is because , um , the , you know the , the when lives are taken , that's basically the , the antithesis of it . But , um , you can , you can burn down your business pretty damn fast . Inside of this emotional frustration that you feel for this individual or the world , inside of this victim mentality , you can distract yourself so entirely through the ongoing wanting to point the finger and the justification through , you know , bringing up all the evidence , like inside of the stories that you're talking to yourself , that you can actually start to believe that you're not supposed to be farming , that you're . You know , this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing . That's basically what I did . I told myself that I mustn't . I just mustn't want to be a farmer . I have to consider that I mustn't want to be a farmer . I have to consider that it wasn't until I was bitch , slapped by a very strong circle of men and brought around to the clarity that was like you know , actually , josh , you do want to farm . We can tell you want to farm . You've got a passion for farming , but it's just that you don't want to farm with your family and you don't want to farm with your dad . That's the mitigating factor here . What are you going to do about that ? Basically
Breaking the Cycle Through Forgiveness
Speaker 2, we want to do things .
Speaker 2If you can split , you split . If you can't , well , you can always split . But what does it mean ? There's going to be consequences both sides , and some of us . Well , we're in a pretty tight sort of a corner when it comes to the financials and the viabilities of businesses as a result . So then you go well , I can't do that , otherwise I'm fucked . I can't farm , I can't do what I want to do . All right .
Speaker 2Then there's the other option Figure your shit out . Right . Then there's the other option Figure your shit out . And that's where you've got to be pushed . You've got to learn to forgive , learn to enrich your relationship with this other man . Maybe that's exactly where all of this has been pushing you , because this has been going on for too long and now it's time for you to break the cycle . Everyone talks about generational wounds and traumas and things like that . Yeah , shit , yeah , it's there , but that's because we've allowed it to happen . Now , where we're pushed into a corner , this generation needs to step up and break the cycle . They need to break it not over somebody else's head not dad's head but over our own heads and hearts that are hardened from this self-entitled bullshit that we keep on operating from .
Speaker 1So you need to go back and re-listen to that , because what you said there is it . May be you right now listening to this and you're like man if I would have heard this five years ago , six years ago , because , for me , I went on this journey of rage and a lot of built up resentment and anger , knowing I wanted to farm , but with the same exact story . Well , I just don't want to do this with my dad , I just want to do this with my dad .
Speaker 1I just do this with my dad , and so I walked a couple different paths , that and I ended up causing more destruction , more chaos , because I wasn't willing to look at myself in the mirror and saying wake up , motherfucker , look at yourself here . Because this self-entitlement , this third , fourth generation deal , you've got to be willing to step up and to face this head on , and I think forgiveness isn't something that's very much talked about . It's talked about , but to truly forgive , you can say you forgive somebody . You can say it in your mind pretty fluffy , isn't it ?
Speaker 1did you do it with your heart ? Did you literally go through and process what they did to you , how you felt , what , what you felt again , what you felt , and some things you're not gonna want to feel how it is , but to truly forgive , as it says in the bible , is to erase it , to wipe the slate clean . That's freaking hard . I can't believe it is .
Speaker 2That's very hard .
Speaker 1In our family it's a daily battle Because , as you said , you go right back to the family farm the next day , that call at 8 am or that drive drive to the farm the next morning .
Speaker 1You're going right back into that environment that you're trying to get yourself clear on and you're trying to get yourself , you're trying to to clean muddy water almost , you're trying to purify and trying to get your headspace clean .
Speaker 1But what I've seen is , once you get clear and once you get to a place where you can get clear on what it is you want and you get clear on you , you get clear on these things and if God's placed you in a partnership with your dad or with your brother , sure there's going to be business things to talk about and to deal with , but you're coming from a place of peace and grace and gentleness and you're not just going in , you're not freaking , blasting everybody with a bunch of shit that does , that does nothing , it does nothing for nobody , but it serves you right , because you have this story that says well , they my dad screwed me over last year , my brother still owes me for this chemical , all right , again . Like it's just looking for that justification to release that anger to release whatever you've been hurt or done wrong by and haven't come to the table to offer grace .
Speaker 1When you do that as a man , that's a very fucking powerful man who's willing to do that and who does do that , because you've just set the example , and you have . You have now shown another man whom you once hated . Maybe you once literally yell that or talking shit to , or have given them so much just resented resentment regurgitated over and over again . Think of the example of a man that you've known , that , that and you've done somebody wrong and they're they have forgiven you yeah , it's a , it's a .
Speaker 2It's a very difficult like you're going to have . Like , the concept and practice of forgiveness has become such a foreign thing these days as the Bible was put down generations ago . Really , um , like , and , and so you know , the actual investigation into what that means , um , and , and how that is actually practiced and how we even go about it . Because , um , you know , and that that's that's where , um , christianity and being a follower of christ is so important . I've found it's been the major determining factor that has seen me be able to actually practice it at all . Because , number one , if we don't , and we think it's all up to us and we throw it all on our shoulders , it crushes us .
Speaker 2The weight of all the pain and all the bullshit and all the the space you're trying to hold under expectations of your own ability , you fuck yourself and you're a fuckwit for thinking you can do it . That's the difference . Like , I thought that I could carry it all . I couldn't carry a fraction of it . Like I just keep cracking and breaking and having a bloody prima donna breakdown over and over again , and the farm suffered and people's minds suffered and the character of the man suffers and his children and his wife and his business suffers and the flesh suffers All of it does , because you think that you can carry this great big millstone around with you all day long . And you can't . You're a faker , you're faking it . I mean , and the only way that you sort of you know you cope with that is you try coping mechanisms , whether that's whatever it is that you can do to distract yourself with . Is you try coping mechanisms , whether that's whatever it is that you can do to distract yourself with .
Discovering Forgiveness and Letting Go
Speaker 2But there comes a point , there must be a , and usually it's in a crisis . Usually it comes at this point of the dark pit . You're really scrambling for the walls , you're like shit , the spiders are on my feet and the snakes are wrapping around me and I'm in the pit hole and I can't see the light anymore . There's no fucking hope , okay . So you know , that tree that's coming at me right now is looking pretty damn good and that can be brought on from just the sheer frustration of the hamster wheel , madness , insanity , that just keeps on winding around and around you thinking is this , it Is this , it Is this what it's all about . Stuff this , you know better off without me . I'm causing all this pain inside of all the people's hearts and minds around me , day in and day out .
Speaker 2I look at my dad . When I was looking at my dad when I was in this space , I was watching his hair grow grey . I was watching the bags under his eyes , as he's sick to death , with worry and concern and sadness and fear and not sure what to do . I would throw myself into such a rage , andy , that he would grab me and try to hold me , because he didn't know what else to do . Didn't know what else to do . Just hug me up because I was wild with emotion . Now that's me .
Speaker 2There are many blokes that go the other direction . They don't get wild with emotion . They back away so entirely . They depart from everyone around them . They become numb to the total extent . That's basically where I was going to be heading next . That was the end of the line , basically Because if I couldn't feel this world , then it wasn't fucking real .
Speaker 2And what's the point being in it ? What's the point , what's it all for ? These questions start to arrive in the mind . That's how much the unforgiving heart , the leadless heart , can lead you to a place of ultimate suffering and demise . It'll fuck you entirely , and not just you but also your family .
Speaker 2So it wasn't until I recognised , because it was like this , it was like being moved to find a place for this weight , and it wasn't until I was , you know , shoved in an ice bath . He moved to find a place for this weight and it wasn't until I was shoved in an ice bath during the day of our Warrior Week experience in Southern California . And then I was brought to him and I was actually given the opportunity to truly recognize what this was about and to lay my burdens at the foot of the cross and know that I was forgiven for all that I had perpetrated , all that I had done , that it was no longer on me , and believe that , realize that and also that it wasn't about me , was like , well , there goes my expectations , so there goes a shit ton of weight . All of a sudden I can deal again with this shit , bit by bit . So it's like recognizing where forgiveness sits and then practicing forgiveness every day , because , unlike us , we're not perfect . Unlike him by him I mean Christ we're not perfect .
Speaker 2The game of forgiveness is a daily battle . We forgive , we leave it , it's done , but there'll be that trigger again , guaranteed . That trigger's going to come up again . And then there are means , but there are . The process of forgiveness is available to every single one of us , and that's what this generation needs to start looking into . That's what we need to start addressing . Otherwise , we're going to end up to be a very bitter generation with not very much to show for it apart from a lot of chaos 100 in chaos .
Speaker 1I mean because it's just an emotional , it's emotional loop , it's an emotional rage , it's a , it's a mess , it's it's soap and dirt and mud on this slippery floor that you keep trying to clean up and you , you keep , you keep slipping and falling down into and it's like you need to recognize and realize that there is a lot of your life that you have to just stop trying to control and to understand . There's a bigger purpose and there's a bigger , a bigger uh , there's a bigger reality here . But we're so stuck and numb , love , when you said numb and abandoned Because I think for most families who their dad growing up , I think a lot of people felt that abandonment and felt that distance specifically from their dad because of the weight that they were carrying Some financial I get the financial piece but the more we really dove into this , it's really sin . It's the weight and the shame and the guilt they carry from years ago , things that they've done , things that we've done . Same thing for me , my whole process going through this as well .
Speaker 1The reason that forgiveness has come to the forefront of my mind is because every single day , I'm reminded that God and Christ forgave me of my sins , everything that I've done , every wrong thing I've said , every person I've hurt , every wrong , the time I knew what was right but didn't do what was right , it's erased Like it's erased . So who am I not to forgive somebody who has done something to me ? That's the arrogance , that's the bitterness we all want to live in , this entitlement of yeah , they hurt me . This swipe left mentality right , swipe left , just cancel them out and move on . Wipe left , just just just cancel them out and move on .
Speaker 1God , I truly believe if god placed somebody in your life and and they , they are still in your life . There's a reason for it and on these family farms , there's a connection to taking care of the ground and taking care of of what god has given us . That is truly spiritual , which is why I believe a lot of us want to continue this and pass it on to our kids , and our dad does as well . It's these angers and these resentments and this deeper level that needs to be brought to your awareness , to truly forgive and to move through it . Because until you don't you say the cost , for me it was making very irrational decisions , making investments in things I shouldn't have been investing in , instead of truly looking at this as a generational business and having it more to do about trying to cover up the pain , trying to sedate from the pain . And you have to look into that pit like there's a pit there . Every man has a pit but in that pit .
Speaker 1There's so many gifts , man . There's so and it continues . The more you go into it , as we're seeing , the deeper you go , the more you go in , the greater like the gifts . There's another gift . It's like oh , I need to either forgive that person , or there's a gift for faithfulness too . There's that obedience and that trust that , okay , if God has me right here in this business , if I'm struggling this whole thing about us getting rain right now in this , what I'm seeing from farmers they're realizing and recognizing right now is that they can't control .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's that's so , yeah , and that's that's so true . Like , um , that's one . What's this one insight that we get ? I think , when we what you're talking about there , andy , when it comes to control and how much I mean , every single man wants to have their own control we all think we ought to , we all think we deserve control , we deserve it . Yeah , you know , like , and you've got your control freaks .
Speaker 2A lot of us are control freaks . We'd like to have the dominance over whatever it is that we're pursuing . So , whether it's , you know , within our businesses , and you know , making sure that we have our finger on every single button and every single time , da-da-da-da , every single person , and making sure that it all runs like clockwork , um , but at some point there has to be the realization that we don't have control and we're not supposed to um , and that our control is an illusion , it's a given , it's not something we owed , it's not something we've earned . Where it is it is basically , it is the gift of life that we have been given some stewardship over that . We might be able to practice um in in some small way . Uh , because it , because it makes him happy , um . But you know , farmers , we get to have that everyday insight , because we really know how little control we actually have when we're talking about this before earlier .
Speaker 2You know , um , you know you might be a hustler and you get out there and you make sales , and you just might be bloody good at making sales . You make sales and you just might be bloody good at making sales , and you know , so be it . You know your control ends in other certain areas . Our control ends when the rain keeps falling and it doesn't stop , or the rain doesn't start , or the mice plague arrives , or the locust plague arrives . You know so many different variables , yet we keep on going out there and screaming out the clouds . You know like you keep on . You know go out on the porch and say , why don't you just fucking stop ? Or you , you sit there scanning your weather zone app or your weather app . Um , just um , just trying to , just trying to to crystal ball it in some way .
Speaker 1It's and um , it's so true , I , I do it , I've done it , I've watched my dad do it , sitting in front of that iPad looking at the rain , looking . You know , yeah , there's a piece of knowing what the weather is going to , you know , trying to do to get the cropping . But there's the other piece of that you're trying to control . You're trying to control this thing . That you're trying to control , you're trying to control this thing , you're trying to be self-reliant is really what it comes down to . You're not asking for help , You're not asking for God's help , and that leaves you feeling stuck and frustrated and ultimately lack , ultimately lack of of of what I really feel as production , because you're going to when you , when you get in that state of overwhelm , of weather and all these things , you don't , you don't truly produce , you think you do , but you're going to find an activity that truly doesn't have any relevant rate of return .
Speaker 1You might say , or you're going to find yourself in a bar , or you're going to find yourself driving around the section three , four times , right , just looking at , looking at crops . But I think , when you truly can just see and connect the dots to your behaviors on why you are doing what you're doing , and you can investigate that and question that . Your awareness and your ability to determine that has a massive compounding effect , because you're going to get down to the root issue . You're going to get down to why you know I have to , that I have to go to the weather map or I have to go to booze right Whenever , or I have to hide when market prices crash , whatever that is Like . There's control has just really hit me today , because that that's such a thing that we try to do , um , but really what it does is it immobilizes at the same time .
Speaker 2Yeah , because it's putting , it's putting all that weight back on your shoulders . It's , it's , it's driving the story of the expectation of yourself that you've got to . You know that you've got it all like Like I'm the man , I'm the dude . You know that's it , I'm alone . And that isolation is very powerful . Spare , no two ways about that . That's how the devil works . He isolates and then when you're alone , he moves in for the kill . So , you know , you start to question all the decisions that you made prior and things like that . It can be totally distracting . But I mean , you know , going back to it , you know , and we are going really into all the different assets and facets of distraction and the way that we want to be able to control life and things like that . But you know the added distraction okay , presented by the stories that we tell ourselves , especially around the relationships , which is one area we absolutely can't control because it's about us in particular . You know we're 50% of that game and I guarantee you that 50% can change a lot as you're able to step into that zone , into that relationship , into that pocket with dad , again effectively , with a conscious intention behind what it is that you're doing , forgiveness on your heart , recognizing that the way is not the way that you've been pursuing this and pulling on the rope as hard as you can to try and drag his face through the mud , but rather to let go of the rope , submit the control Not submit in all things a decision but just , you know , start looking under other stones . Consider that not all stones have been turned over . That's what a mate and mentor of mine , max Mays , he told me , which was a big shifting point . He said you haven't turned over all the stones yet , josh . And I'm like what ? Because I was on a brink of fucking burning the whole show down and it just was at the right time to catch me at that time and that moment , because I didn't believe there was any other way , truly inherently so . And there are ways , there are means . So that's sort of like . And that brings me to sort of what it is that you're doing , andy .
Embracing Emotional Work for Farmers
Speaker 2You've got an event coming up in July . It's specifically designed for farmers in this zone , this space , that are , you know , going through the absolute rollercoaster of their emotions . Like we know what the shit's like , right of their emotions . Like we know what the shit's like right We've been talking about , you know , the potential of being able to get to this place , of having a farm and a family of happiness , of a space where you can leave a legacy of , you know , of peace , of joy , of production , all these good things . It just seems impossible for so many dudes , so many sons . I know I can attest to that . So I mean so you've got an event coming up , you've got a program , you've got Farmer on Fire . That's what you're doing , like I do with Sovereign Sons over here in Australia . So you know , can you tell me a little bit more about what like what is ? So ? What does your event going to look like ?
Speaker 1I think it starts with when you are in this space that you and I have both been in , and what this tells me . If you and I have gone through this and have experienced that , there's other men who have experienced that , that same feeling , and for me it was this feeling of all alone . I'm alone with the story . I feel alone . I may be around somebody , I may be around family , I may be around somebody , I may be around family , but as a man and as the producer , internally , I feel like I'm playing this game alone . And you know like for me and I know you are the same there's this possibility for something else , not completely different , but this search like this searching of something that that that is there . How do I get there ? That's the question . The problem , though , is that a lot of people just want to tell you what it is you need to do . That a lot of people just want to tell you what it is you need to do , and I think we've all been a part of groups and people who have done that , and it's gotten you so far , but then you find yourself in the exact same spot . So what's different about the event and what's different , in my opinion on Farmer on Fire and what it has brought men to is . It's a self-examination , it's truly bringing you to help you understand the connecting points on your relationship to your dad and to yourself and these patterns so you can begin to see the reason you're mad at dad or the reason you're mad at your wife , whatever this is , because there's always a connecting point . But that takes you willing to walk into this fire and this live two-day experience what is causing the pain and to begin for you to investigate , by the process we go through , to lead you through these different phases and evolutions , to start making some sense and some clarity . To start making some sense and some clarity . Not another story , not another , you know , not another trip to the liquor store , right For another 12 pack to fix it for another day . It's actually digging deep and sticking your heels in the ground and taking a look around and say where the hell am I ? Truly , because we're so blind . We're blind and for me I was also numb , because it was easier to numb out than to go into the fire and go into the place . That is going to require you to do some shit , some hard shit , and to begin to fix on it .
Speaker 1Divorce is very easy . Separating from your family is very Moving across the country . It's very easy . You and I have had both experiences with that , where we were led to believe the easier solution is to just sell out . Maybe not sell out , but to move to separate . It's easy , that's easy . Easy to do that . What's hard is to go deep . What's hard is to patch the boat .
Speaker 1I've had a mentor to say you know , there's this abandoning the ship and and getting up before it sinks . How about actually going and repairing it and fixing it ? And I think for a lot of us that have family farms or have have have these businesses and have these relationships , the problem isn't going to go away if you haven't dealt with it , if you haven't gone in . It't going to go away If you haven't dealt with it . If you haven't gone in , it's going to show up somewhere else .
Speaker 1This is something that came relevant to me the other day is it's always going to show up something else . That behavior , pattern of abandonment or rejecting it's going to show up somewhere else . You're going to do it somewhere else . Time to step into that place to see why you're doing this , why you're abandoning your family to help you actually get clarity and peace , get all that out of the way . What's different is you're . You're in the group , a group of men who are doing the exact same thing like you and I have experienced right , and what you're doing , it's truly letting men go through the process , but supporting them and holding them up at the same time , showing them help , making sure they know there's a path and there's a light .
Speaker 2And that's the thing it's . It's like this isn't a hold your hand , happy , clappy , bullshit thing . It's really not like . And I think and I mean I think we're , we're , we're , we're out of time today , but like , this is something that I really want to go into and I know there's a conversation that's very dear self-help industry and how misleading it is . But I just want to make a market difference here .
Speaker 2This is not a fucking make you feel all fuzzy , warm inside and then let you go with that nice slingshot of momentum so you can go drop off the cliff and go return to where you were just a moment ago . It's not that it's a place and space of accountability . It's about doing deep work . It's about you know it's and it's for the man who's prepared to actually fucking do it . Because if you're not prepared to do it , if you're not prepared to go in and fight and fix it , you know . If you're not prepared to , you know , hop out of the other side of the ship . You know , with , with everything , you need to patch that leak , because that's basically the message we always get told Jump out of the sinking ship . You don't want to be the last one who's going to be going down the ship , the sinking ship . It's doomed . It's like who the fuck are you to say that ? First of all , where has God put your feet ? Look down , where are you , which is what we've been talking about . Look down , where are you at now , righto , where do you want to be ? How are we going to get there ? So , um , no , I think , um , I think this has been a really important conversation , andy , and I think that , um , there's so much more here again . You know just more topics . You know brushing on the silence of man , of the silence of the sun when ideas are brought up , and how that encroaches on the heart . You know , I think that's something that we really need to get into next week Self-help industry and things like that . Another thing , you know , you name it . Let's talk about it , let's get into it .
Speaker 2I think that everybody out there who's listening to this right now , you know if you're either a father's son , farmer's son , sorry and you're going through this experience , all of these things , you know it just resonates with you . You know , reach out to Andy at his website on Farmer on Fire and actually , you know , consider that there are means , that there are those who are willing to hold space for you and where you're at , but you've got to be prepared to do the work , and same goes if you're over here in Australia . You know , have a look at sovereignsonscomau . Um and um , you know . Or just reach out . Just reach out , um , uh , you know . Leave a comment at the man's land , on the man's land uh podcast . It's at the link at the bottom of the page . Um and you know .
Speaker 2If you've got more that you want to add , or questions or anything like that , please don't hesitate to reach out and ask . Yeah , we'd be really happy to hear a bit of feedback as well . So that'd be cool . That'd be cool . It's a heavy topic . It's a heavy topic . It's not easy to make light of , you know . But there's joy at the end , don't worry . There'll be joy at the end . You'll just fuck on door to work , you know . So , yeah , man , groovy , talking to you , love talking to you . You as well . Okay , bro , great call , ciao , peace , we'll see you next time .
