(Chats 4-29-26) | How to Fight Back When Management Ignores OWCP Rules

Welcome back to the Breaking OWCP Podcast! This week, Chris and Gini are broadcasting live from Atlanta, Georgia, to tackle one of the most frustrating challenges federal employees face: what do you do when management willfully ignores OWCP rules, laws, and regulations?

If you’ve ever had a supervisor tell you, "that rule doesn't apply to me," or if you’ve been pressured to sign a limited duty offer under duress, this episode is your blueprint for fighting back. Chris breaks down actionable, step-by-step strategies to force compliance, build an airtight paper trail, and escalate the issue to the people who can actually make management pay attention.

In This Episode, We Cover:

• The Power of the Paper Trail: Why "documenting everything" means more than just taking notes. Learn exactly how to word your emails to supervisors to force them to put their non-compliance in writing.
• E-Comp Strategy: How to request written direction from your OWCP Claims Examiner to prove your case to management.
• Strategic Stacking: Why you shouldn't just do one thing. Learn how to stack grievances, congressional inquiries, and external complaints to maximize your leverage.
• Refusing Work Safely: Why you must never refuse work unless you have solid medical backing (like a CA-17).
• Respond, Don't React: Why keeping your emotions in check is the most powerful tool in your arsenal when building a case against bad management.

The OWCP Enforcement Cheat Sheet: If management refuses to follow the law, here is exactly where you can escalate the issue:

• OIG (Office of Inspector General): For fraud, abuse, or misconduct.
• OSC (Office of Special Counsel): For retaliation or whistleblower issues.
• MSPB (Merit Systems Protection Board): For discipline, suspension, or termination related to your workers' comp claim.
• EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission): For discrimination (including being treated unfairly due to a temporary disability).
• DOL Escalation: Reaching out directly to the District or Regional Director.
• Congressional Inquiry: Reaching out to your local congressperson (agencies hate dealing with Congress).
• Union Grievances: The ultimate tool for holding management financially and professionally accountable.

Mentioned in this Episode:

• A huge shoutout to Richie Ray (NALC President) and Victor for joining the live chat and sharing top-tier union insights!
• Need OWCP forms? Get your CA-1, CA-2, CA-17, and more at [Federal Injury Centers Website].

Catch Us on the Road: Chris and Gini are hitting the road! We are currently in Atlanta with District 5 AFGE and will be heading to Butte, Montana for the Western Region Conference with APWU (covering Montana, Oregon, Idaho, and Wyoming).

Don't forget to hit SUBSCRIBE and follow the Breaking OWCP Podcast so you never miss a live chat!

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Wednesday Night OWCP Chats with Chris & Gini

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And I always said file a grievance. And I know you need documentation to file a grievance, but the documentation can be strong for a lot of things. Emailing the supervisor and asking for their understanding or confirmation of the rules is a really interesting step because it puts them on notice that we're not playing around because now we're going to have documentation. Whether you respond to me or not, I've got documentation. You can even go back after a couple of days and say, I just want to confirm that you saw my email and you did not respond the first time. So let me repeat myself. Can we confirm that 20 CFR 10.100 or whatever says the following and means the following? So that's one way of documenting. The other way of documenting is sending an e-comp letter to your claims examiner asking for their understanding of the rules.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

And now you've got documentation when the claims examiner gets back with you that you can show to management. The claims examiner even said the following. And I think that's a really cool thing to do that I never thought of doing, and it's so simple.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Welcome back to the breaking of Doctor Podcast. Get back to work the right way. Let's break down the barriers and get the doctor.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Wednesday night OWCP chats with Chris and Jeannie.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Live from Atlanta, Georgia.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

From Atlanta. How's everybody doing tonight? Alrighty. Let's do some little housekeeping. We are in Atlanta because we are here with District 5 AFGE. That covers the VA, TSA, the base, the prison, IRS. What else?

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Pretty much everyone who's not a pulse one.

SPEAKER_04 1:53

Yeah, outside of USPS. So we are here. We are gonna get to see our friends tomorrow. We're so super excited to see them all again. And yeah. And I oh, and then on Sunday from Atlanta, we leave and we go to Butte, Montana.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Never been to Montana before.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Yeah, we're super excited to get to Montana. On top of that, we we are also gonna be in Montana with Oregon, Idaho, and Wyoming for a Western region conference with APW. And Chris is gonna be teaching a two-hour class there. So we're excited to meet more federal employees from those four states that we have not met with.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah, finally teaching people that we've never taught before.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Yeah. So with that said, tonight we have a really great topic. And next week we probably have another great topic from questions we've been asked this week. So I'm gonna have Chris start explaining what he's gonna talk about while I share. Richie Ray!

SPEAKER_02 3:00

What's up, Rich?

SPEAKER_04 3:01

My favorite guy outside of Chris.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Maybe your favorite guy.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Love you so much. Can't wait to see you, hopefully. All right, Chris. Go ahead. I was trying to figure out why you look taller than me.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Oh, because is it? Because I'm sitting up. No, that's the angle of the thing.

unknown 3:17

Victor!

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Victor, what's going on?

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Norax, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

What's up? Yeah, check this out. So, this this topic is one I've never done before. And I'm really anxious to do it. I'll say in advance, it is dedicated to the Utah APWU. The reason that is, is because they're having this problem that almost nobody else in the country has, which is surprising, where they've got some folks there that, in the face of the rules and the laws, and the regulations still refuse to follow the rules. And even went so far as to say, yeah, that doesn't apply to me. Wait, what? The code of federal regulations doesn't apply to you. So you're the one. And I last time I was up with in Utah doing my class, that came up, and I said, I don't know how to overcome that. How do I fix somebody that willfully ignores the rules? Can see it in writing and say, no, I'm not gonna do it. And so I've been thinking a lot about it. And so I got with my buddy Chat GPT because I was drawn to blink and it gave me some interesting ideas. So I'm gonna give a disclaimer up front. This is information that I received from Chat GPT. I trust my Chat GPT because I've spent hours and hours of training it to understand OWCP at the same level that I do. And so I do trust it, but just know as a disclaimer, it came from there, and some of these topics on here I had never heard of before, which makes me excited about them. And if you try any of them and they don't work, then my disclaimer was for you. But I'm really hoping that they do. And the worst thing that can happen is that we're in the same place that we're in right now. But for sure, we've got to find a way to get management, injury comp, whoever's responsible for helping, I shouldn't say helping, but helping with OWCP inside the agency. We've got to have some solution for them being accountable to the same rules, laws, and regulations that you're accountable to. Because the rules are for everyone, they're not just for you, they're for management too. In fact, I would argue that the rules are more for management than for you. So, anyhow, I'm gonna go ahead and just go through this. Anybody that's got questions, ask. I may not, you may stump the chump tonight. This is a really new topic for me. You want what so important that I want to do it tonight because they need it. Let's set this up. What I need we need the laws to be enforced. Yeah, that's exactly right. Richie, this is gonna include ideas on how to enforce it. Take notes. All right. So let's just have the premise that we've got somebody. I'm just making up a story that is a true story, but I'll make one up. It's a true story.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Is this a true story or make one up?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

I'm making up a true story. We had this situation where a limited duty offer was presented to someone and said, You gotta accept it right now, or we're gonna pull it. When the rules, the law states that they'll have 30 days after the claims examiner has an opportunity to look at it. So if you have 30 days, you don't have to sign under protest or under duress. Those rule, those words aren't even in the rules. And so this person in the agency was shown the specific rules that I teach in my two-hour class and was told that doesn't apply to me. So, what do we do about that person?

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

So we're gonna start with this. It's basic, but it's a smart idea. Document everything emails, text messages. If you have a verbal conversation and they say something like, Yeah, that doesn't apply to me, write it down. Just a summary. Include dates and times that it happened, and if there's witnesses that heard it, include them. That's gonna be really important. So document. And it's got some pretty cool ideas with documentation moving forward, also. And I'm looking forward to getting to that. But this is an example. So you may say, per OWCP guidance under 20 CFR part 10, my understanding is blank. Please confirm. Now imagine that's an email. My understanding is blank, please confirm. Because now you've got documentation that you've showed them. Here's the rule. If I'm wrong, correct me now. And either they're going to correct you, ignore you, or obey the rules. Obeying the rules is what we want. Ignoring you, there's that's documented proof that they had the rules and ignored it. And if they willfully go against it, then you've got more documentation. So document everything. Let's see. And if there's questions, just ask them.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

Thank you for the hearts, guys. That's really sweet. We have oh, Tamicia. Hello from San Antonio, Texas. We're gonna be there actually. My childhood best friend is turning 50, so Chris and I are going there to San Antonio soon. Exciting.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Okay, here's the next thing. So the first thing we did was we emailed, text messaged, preferably email, supervisor management, HR, injury comp, whoever we're dealing with, right? And because you need a response or no response, either way is okay, but you do your part and send the email and cite the rules here in 20 CFR, part 10, whatever, it says the following. But the next thing you want to do is get a written opinion from OWCP. And so you want to request written direction from your claims examiner through e-comp. In this message, you may write a letter to the claims examiner that says, it's my understanding that 20 CFR10.whatever says that you have to review my limited duty offer before I accept it. And then I have time to see that to show it to my doctor. Can you confirm that is correct? If not, can you correct me? And then now the claims examiner is required to respond to everything in writing. And so now we have that. If you have that, you go back to the supervisor and say, look, the claims examiner said.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

And so we want to do that. The claims examiner said, and here it is in writing. So you've sent an email to the supervisor and got a response or not. You've sent an e-comp letter to the claims examiner and get a response. And if not, you go above the claims examiner to the supervisor, to the head of OWCP if you have to. You want to get responses from your claims examiners.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

Hold on. Like Victor said, sadly, USPS employees are afraid to submit statements because of retaliation. I'm gonna get fortunately that's true.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

I'm gonna deal with that too.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

So this would be an example of something you would send to your supervisor after the claims examiner. OWCP has approved blank. Please confirm whether management intends to comply. So now you've gotten a response back from OWCP claims examiner, and you're sharing it with management. But you're you're doing everything in writing. A lot of people do a lot of things just by talking, but that gives deniability to management.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

We want them to put it in writing. And if they didn't put it in writing, they should have to answer for why not? Why'd you ignore this? Okay, let's see. What does this say? Nope, I said that. Ah, okay. This is one, Victor, especially, you're probably gonna like. External enforcement channels.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

Everybody pay attention to this. Write these down.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Okay. So if you're trying to enforce issues related to fraud, abuse, or misconduct, it's the OIG. So fraud, abuse, misconduct, OIG. Retaliation issues or whistleblower issues, it's OSC. What is OSC? One moment. Somebody look up OSC if you want to get to it faster than me. I'll look at it. But anyways, OSC is like something I had never heard of before. And it means something. And so she's gonna look it up. Discipline or termination. So let's say related to workers' comp, you receive some discipline because of something related to the injury or termination.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

Oh OSC is U.S. Office of Special Counsel.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Retaliation and whistleblower.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

That's right. All right. So the MSPB, that is, I know this one, but that's for discipline and termination. The Merit System Protection Board.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

Removal, suspension, okay furloughs.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

And then everyone's heard of EEOC for discrimination, but a lot of people don't realize what discrimination means. If you are temporarily disabled due to a work injury and you're treated unfairly as a result of that, then potentially there's discrimination. DOL escalation to the district or regional director. So to this point, I've always said if your claims examiner is not responsive, get with the supervisor. This says contact the district or regional director. It did say file a union grievance, and everyone that knows me knows that's one of my favorite things. So you should always file a grievance. Anytime they're unwilling to follow the rules, you should file a grievance. Because you're going to win, and the way I know you're going to win is the rules are clear. And if the issue is just that they won't allow the 30 days for an employee to show their limited duty offer to the doctor, you should win because the code of federal regulations outlines how it should be done. If they refuse to allow for the rules to be followed, I don't know how you don't win a grievance. And then finally, congressional inquiry. What I read here, and I knew already, is that anytime you do a congressional inquiry, they're going to the congressional person, whoever you're communicating with, they're going to request responses from the agency. And the agency does not want to have to deal with Congress. So congressional inquiry.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

I know a lot of you guys are saying OSC is not for federal employees, but this is what it says. OSC isn't is the agency federal workers can turn to when management crosses the line and abuses its authority.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

And as I said, some of this may not work, but to this point, you're not, I don't think you found anything that does work. And I'm just trying to help out. So I would say that, and no offense to whoever said that, but in instead of OSC won't help, I think it's worth trying. And I don't want you to need that, but it's worth trying, I think. And then this one says, do some strategic stacking. So don't do one thing. Get an OWCP directive, letter to the claims examiner by eComp saying, This is my understanding of the rule. Please confirm. Number two, document the noncompliance. So you write down exactly what happened and you send it to the supervisor and say, it's my understanding the rules state this. Can you confirm that's correct? Or whatever, right? Then file OIG OSC, a union grievance, and a congressional inquiry. So this is saying if you do all the things, then your odds of winning are going to go way up. And I happen to agree with that. I love doing all the things.

SPEAKER_04 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

What's what's Richie saying here?

SPEAKER_04 15:08

So Rich Ray, if anybody who doesn't know Rich Ray, he's a N A L C in Staten Island in Brooklyn. He said, unfortunately, carriers have to get backbone. Stop being afraid because there are rules in place to protect us from being whistleblowers. The reality of this statement is a failure of our union who has not educated workforce. We need to stand up for ourselves and we need not to be afraid. He is absolutely 100% right. And then he said, Chris, I want to get you on my podcast to discuss the serious issues of all the challenges that postal employees face regarding OWCP.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Rich, say when.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Yeah, message me and I'll take a look at our schedule. Give me a few dates that you could do it. We'll do it. Chris will be on there. Christopher Kane said, if you're not, if you're a non-work status, your grievance will not be handled until put back in a work status. At least that is what I was told after filing one after my injury.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

That doesn't make sense to me. Victor and Richie can confirm that or whatever. They're the union experts, not me. But I would say that your union has an opportunity to file a grievance anytime management violates the law against one or violates the rules against one of their members. Yes. That's the issue. And maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but Rich and Victor are here, so they know for sure. Okay, so the next thing this said, and I thought this was smart that it was included.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

Hold on. Those of you that are hopping on tonight's topic, if you didn't see that we posted, it's what to do when management willfully ignores OWCP rules, laws, and regulations. That's our topic tonight.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

All right. So this says, and I love this one, do not get emotional. And I see a lot of people getting emotional, and it makes sense because you know, this is your financial livelihood. They're messing with your family. I get it. But it says, don't get emotional, easier said than done. It also says refuse, do not refuse work without medical backing. So don't refuse work unless you've got a doctor, CA17, that says what you can and can't do. That's going to be very important. For the most part, I don't see people using OWCP as a vacation. But sometimes people are disgruntled and don't want to work at whatever job they gave them that was for the limited duty offer. But if it matches your restrictions, you got to accept it. So that was smart. Do follow OWCP and do document everything. That's one of the simplest things is document everything that I didn't really think about. I think what the problem is I'm just like waist deep in OWCP. And so I needed an outside set of eyeballs on this. But documenting everything, and I always said file a grievance, and I know you need documentation to file a grievance, but the documentation can be strong for a lot of things. Emailing the supervisor and asking for their understanding or confirmation of the rules is a really interesting step because it puts them on notice that we're not playing around because now we're going to have documentation. Whether you respond to me or not, I've got documentation. You can even go back after a couple of days and say, I just want to confirm that you saw my email and you did not respond the first time. So let me repeat myself. Can we confirm that 20 CFR10.100 or whatever says the following and means the following? So that's one way of documenting. The other way of documenting is sending an e-comp letter to your claims examiner asking for their understanding of the rules.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

And now you've got documentation when the claims examiner gets back with you that you can show to management. The claims examiner even said the following. And I think that's a really cool thing to do that I never thought of doing, and it's so simple. And then it says you're not trying to win an argument, you are building a case. I couldn't agree more with that. You're just building a case. The only way to win, winning is not winning an argument. Winning is getting what's right, getting it done, what you're trying to get done. Just again, there's OIG for fraud, abuse, and misconduct, OSC for issues of retaliation or whistle whistleblower, MSPB for discipline and termination, EEOC for issues of discrimination, DOL escalation to the district or regional director, which is another great one. All the way to the regional district regional director, filing a grievance or a congressional inquiry. And I love congressional inquiry. You can file those anytime you want. People in Congress work for us. So you can't get in trouble for writing a letter to your congressperson as long as you don't threaten them with don't threaten them.

SPEAKER_04 19:42

Just don't threaten them.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Don't do any threats. Don't do that at all. But you can write letters to them anytime you want. All right. So that's what you need to do.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Richie Ray said, journal is very important, times, dates, and what happened. We say this all the time, and we're gonna do this another chat on time frames. So what he's saying is absolutely right. Jack says, Do you have a cheat sheet for these?

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Not yet, but I just now came up with this list. So I intend to work on it and post it.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

Once we get the list together, we will post it and then we'll defer back that this was this week's chats.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

Any other questions that anybody has so far in this?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Yeah, so look, I'm gonna fine-tune this list because I think it's important. I'm gonna do some more digging on the OSC and some other things like that because we've got to do something. The only thing we can't do is nothing. We can't just sit around and allow management and HR to continue to get over on us because it's hurting your life.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

And management doesn't understand, it's like we're gonna end up in woodshed night tonight. But they seem to not understand that every time they get in your way, they're slowing down your ability to get back to work, which is where they want you to be. They want you to be at work full duty, but they're getting in the way of you getting back to work full duty, which is super idiotic. And but nobody ever said they weren't. I'm just saying that part is super idiotic. And so we've got to do something about it. Let's document the hell out of it. Emails to supervisors, letters to claims examiners, contact district, regional claims examiner supervisors, contact your congressperson, do whatever it takes and file grievances and win the grievances because you'll have all the documentation you need to win the grievances, and just keep winning until finally someone looks at it and goes, Hey, maybe we want to stop because losing sucks, and we keep doing that. Yeah, and if they just get out of the way, everyone wins. Everyone, including management. They all win. I'd love to be able to teach a class to them, but man, they wouldn't like it.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Rishi said, Respond, do not react. Keep your emotions out of it. Very important. Respond, do not react. That's absolutely true. And a lot of you suffer from this because we all are just so angry and we're hurt, and you want to react, but he Is right, you cannot react.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

You have to Richie said they understand, but they don't care. That's true. That's true. The only way to make them care is make it hurt. And I don't mean physically, no physical violence, kid kids, but look, make it hurt. There's a financial punishment for losing a grievance. Yes. You don't want a congressperson or their staffers reaching out, or management doesn't want that. Believe me, they don't want it. And you just document everything because it really puts them in a spot where they can't just do this anymore. They can't just lie to you, they can't willfully disregard the rules because you've got documentation that you made them aware of the rules, and they ignored that even. Yeah. That is going to be huge for you later on.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

Christopher Kane, I know a couple people said that's not true about what you said. And he said, I wish it wasn't, but I have a long email chain that says different back towards the end of the year last year. So those of you that disagree, just you can contact. Maybe it's agency specific, but maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

That is that's a new one to me.

SPEAKER_04 23:03

What questions do you guys have on this?

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Or anything.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Anything at all. But can we all just agree that we can't just continue to sit back and let management do what they're doing? Can't. And if anybody has other ideas, I'm open to it. I'd love to hear them.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

Oh, thank you guys for all the hearts and the likes. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, it's frustrating to me to know that I know everything there is to know about OWCP and I can teach it with the best of them, maybe better than the best. But I can't make management obey. I can't do that. So I'm always looking for ways to have you make management obey because that's what they need to do.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

You know how everybody rallies and protests. Why can't and I don't know. I think it's just funny. Why can't USPS just rally and protest against management? No, I know.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

No, they're not allowed to.

SPEAKER_04 23:57

Oh, that's sucky.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah. I think I'm pretty sure it's in their contracts.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

Is that true, Richie? Or Victor?

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_04 24:05

You can't go protest against these supervisors and management, just walk out of work and protest.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Maybe you can do it on your own time, but not on company time, that's for sure.

unknown 24:15

All right.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

You're not gonna get paid LOP for it either, believe me.

SPEAKER_04 24:18

What other questions do you guys have on this topic? Remember, the topic is what to do when management willfully ignores OWCP rules, laws, and regulations. And you guys know they they don't work with you guys most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Yeah, they do it all the time. And again, what ideas do you have? What should, in your experience, what's worked that I should be teaching people all?

SPEAKER_04 24:42

Victor said, I wish you guys can train management and make sure they follow OWCP. Yeah, we can't do stoppage. Yeah, I can though, right? Can I just go out of a post office and fly a flag or something?

SPEAKER_02 24:54

No, they can have you removed. They'll have you removed for sure.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

What questions did you guys have on this? Or anything else. Yeah, but nothing stops us to rally on our own type of thing. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

I was gonna say that.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

I'm gonna come join you, Richie.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah, say when.

SPEAKER_04 25:08

Yeah, with a cup of coffee. We're gonna rally. Those of you that don't know, Richie Ray is an NALC president out in New York, and he does have a podcast, and he is all over TikTok, and you gotta watch him. You gotta watch him and go follow him on Richie Ray's hot house.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah, Richard if you can post in the comments how people can find you.

SPEAKER_04 25:34

Yeah, Jack said, How can you determine if it's discrimination or laziness? That's actually both, actually. We hear it.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah, it's gonna be situational, but in any case, if they're treated differently than someone who's not injured, it's discrimination.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

Oh, Victor said I can actually rally in protest. I could go do it. Let's see. Maria, what do you do when management says limited duty employees are useless? Oh wow. Document it.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Document it the day and time it happened. And if anybody else heard it, have them document it as well. I guess it's okay if they it's not okay. Look, I come from a management background. It is not okay to say that anyone is useless. Okay, that's ridiculous. But it's not the thing is it's not against the rules, it's not retaliation to have an opinion. It's just really crappy.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

Grieve it. He said to grieve it. Okay. There you go, Maria.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

I look, forget what I said. Do what Richie says.

SPEAKER_04 26:28

Yeah. Norax. I filed an EEOC claim on management to deal with them. There you go. Good. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

And I don't want you to have to do any of this stuff. It's just, it takes time and energy. And I I hate that you have to, but you got to.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

Yeah. Even Victor said, grieve it, Maria. And Rich Ray said, mutual respect violation. Oh. Asking for someone.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Fantastic. That's good. Let's grieve it.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

Can you touch base on mental abuse? Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

That's really deep. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist or any mental health professional. So I'm going to struggle with this one. I would say that if you feel like you're, and I'm not saying you don't have it, but if you have been dealing with mental abuse, you're going to have to talk to someone and get someone's opinion who's an expert in that. I'm sorry, I'm just not.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

Rich, Richie, Victor, can you guys touch on that? If you get, can you touch base on mental abuse? If you guys know. Maria, can they get rid of limited duty?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

What do you mean by that, Maria? Can they get rid of it? Are you saying can they take it back once they've given it to you? Is that what you mean? Because I guess work could no longer be available, but what they have to do is always make every effort to find work for you that matches your restrictions on a CA 17.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

So that your question, your response, Rich, is good. Good question. Can we file for mental health issues that is caused on the job? How do we go about that?

SPEAKER_02 27:59

So you absolutely can file for mental health issues that are caused by the job. It's just like any other injury. It's a CA1 or a CA2. Did it happen in just this shift? Or has this thing been just happening over time and I can't take it anymore?

SPEAKER_04 28:12

Victor said, heck no, Maria, they cannot get rid of limited duty.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

I think they can give you new duties as long as they're inside of your restrictions, but they can't just take it away from you if it's available. Now, if they make every effort to find a limited duty assignment and they really legitimately can't find one, then unfortunately you'll end up just on the rolls and you'll be at home getting paid to be home. What else? I'm looking at comments down here and up here. That's why we keep looking down.

SPEAKER_04 28:43

It's uh oh yeah. Yeah, we oh Julie, we just Chris just explained that. Under the city carrier's contract, they cannot withdraw limited duty job offers. Offer the only time they can do this if only if your CA 17 changes.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Right, that's what I'm saying. They either the doctor will change it or maybe they have a new job because the old one's not needed anymore. And so they'll give you a new offer with the new job. It still has to match your restrictions. They can do that, but they can't just say we we're just gonna take it away because that is retaliation.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

Can they not offer it asking for someone?

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Yeah, they could say that they used their best efforts and couldn't find any work that matches the restrictions, they can do that, but then whoever it is will be home getting paid on LWAP.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

USPS limited duty is a 40-hour work week guaranteed. Nice. That's good. What else, guys?

SPEAKER_02 29:36

This is good stuff. So again, tonight we're talking about what to do when supervisors, when management willfully refuses to follow the rules. And what do you do about it? So just to recap, lots of documentation. We're gonna email our supervisors and say, the rule states this. Can you confirm my understanding? If the supervisor responds in any way that's wrong, that's documentation. If they don't respond, that's also documentation. They didn't respond, they're ignoring you. And then you send a very similar question to your claims examiner by e-comp. My understanding of this of rule blank is the following Can you confirm my understanding? And then when the claims examiner responds, then you can take that to the supervisor and say, look, the claims examiner has said the following. And then when you say the claims examiner said the following, if the supervisor continues to ignore it, then everything you do next is gonna hurt them really bad because the the district person and the regional person at OWCP is not gonna be that impressed by that. Your congressional person is not gonna be very impressed by that, you're gonna have all the documentation you're ever gonna need to file a grievance and win. So if when they start ignoring written email, you know, your emails, when they ignore them or they go against what a claims examiner says, or they say their understanding is something that's clearly not the rules, you've got them. And then now we have that, and that's all of our documentation.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

Oh, Victor said stupid visors, Rich Ray said, I got that t-shirt. I've seen you wear that too. Joseph, what if you're instructed not to email management? Wait, what?

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Why disobey that order? How can you not? Okay, then write a letter, put it in an envelope, stick a stamp on it, and mail it to them. Certified even.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

There you go. Julie said, Has anyone filed for an autoimmune disease strictly from on the job due to mental abuse, retaliation, harassment, bullying, discrimination, and assault?

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Okay, I'm also not a medical doctor, so I don't know how autoimmune diseases are contracted. I'm not saying they're not due to mental health issues, but I don't know. That's one you got to take to a doctor. But here's what I do know if they approve any mental health condition like stress, anxiety, or PTSD or any of that, then they're able to do diagnosis expansions for anything else. That's just how the rules work. So I guess the first part would be to get the mental health diagnosis approved.

SPEAKER_04 32:15

Rich Ray said documentation is everything. People, very important paperwork is very important. We've talked about this several times, where Chris will tell you it doesn't matter if you're going into even a second opinion, write down how many minutes was it. Write down everything, document everything, take pictures of things, even if you have to. If you're a city carrier and you fell in a hole and twisted your knee, take a picture of the hole that you fell in. Norak said, always communicate via email or certified mail. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Agreed.

SPEAKER_04 32:46

We need doctors for mental health.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

We know, Richie.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

Yeah. Julie said, okay, thank you. I appreciate your responses. Very welcome, Julie.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

What else does anybody have? It can be on any topic related to OWCP. If you're having any problems tonight, you should not be having those same problems tomorrow. So, whatever you have, hit me up with it.

SPEAKER_04 33:05

Yeah, let's stump the chumper tonight.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

It's probably not gonna happen, but you can try your best.

SPEAKER_04 33:10

I think last year I think we stumped the chump twice. That's not bad.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Nah, those weren't even OWCP questions. If you ask the wrong question, that I can't be held responsible for that. What else we have? Oh, I said that one already.

unknown 33:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

What else you guys got?

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Victor, before you file a grievance, make sure you have statements in line going to court and you don't have any proof. Yeah, you don't you want to have your proof. Oh, it's like going to court and you don't have proof.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

Oh, Richie Ray, I love you.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

I do too, Rich.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

Anthony, I have filed a CA7 over a worn-out knee. Hip still waiting to hear from second opinion.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

You filed a CA7 over the knee. I hope you also filled out a CA1 or CA2 to get the claim started because if you don't have an approved claim, you're not gonna get paid on a CA7.

SPEAKER_04 34:04

So, Norax, we tell people this all the time. She says, inform everyone to use EAP to establish care for mental care, mental health care via your job.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

And yeah, actually, you can use EA to document what your supervisors are doing. It's gotta be stressful to know that you have to sign a limited duty offer under duress, for example. So that could be another way to document it.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

He said, Yes, I did a CA2. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Anthony, once your claim is approved, then you should have no problem filing a CA7. And the fact that you have to get a second opinion, that's not uncommon. But it'll just require your doctor to write a better report than the second opinion doctor, truthfully. And that's how you win that deal.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

We were driving from home to the airport, and I was telling Chris in the car, this lady messaged me, and this has been going an ongoing message with her. She literally did not know what she had to file. And her union president, I won't say where, her union president did not know what to tell her either. So she went to a primary care, and the doctor, the note I was showing you, the doctor wrote just on a regular script her job restrictions, and that was it.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

Not even gonna work.

SPEAKER_04 35:22

That's not gonna work. So this is why we tell you guys, we're not telling you guys to come on here just because we want you guys to come on here and follow us. We're telling you this stuff because we're educating and training you on how to do all of this stuff so you're not in that kind of situation. And we understand we don't have locations in all 50 states, but if you can get to one, it'll be great.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Julie, it's your first time here. So happy to have you.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Rich Ray said, Stewards, if you can't get statements, then interview the grievance and ask the questions. This is something we can do to help get the statement. That's true. Chris always says that too.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:55

Judy, I am forwarding your information to a friend. So informative. This is my first time. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Hey, Julie, hit the follow button. That way you see every time we go live. We don't go live every week. This is one of those rare times where we're traveling away. We're away from home, but we're still on. If you hit the follow button, you'll see anytime we're on. Glad to have you.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

Tamicia, can a mental health provider put a CA 17 in for time off from work?

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah, a psychologist or a psychiatrist can do that.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

That was a question. Okay. Yeah, if you got we get this every week. After the chat is done, people will come over to it. This is what happens. You're already there on the Wednesday night chats page, whether you're on Facebook or YouTube, and then you'll say, How do I get on the page and watch your live? You have to click the follow button and it'll give you the notification that we go live. That's the only way I can. There's no other way. You either subscribe to YouTube or you follow us on Facebook. Julie, oh, trust me, I did.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Thank you. She followed us.

SPEAKER_04 37:00

Maria, it's true. Union members say that OWCP is not their thing. Yeah, we hear that. It shocks us. And we understand OWCP is just a small part of what the union needs to know, especially the presidents when they have other things going on. But they should know at least the basic to tell you if it's a CA1, a CA2, get a CA 16, get a CA 17. Those are the basics that they should know.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

And when they don't, all they got to do is call up your friendly neighborhood, Chris, and request us to come out and do a training for the stewards, and we'd be happy to do it.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

Rich said the important thing is the thing to know is that we need to be aggressive and we need to get control of our workroom floors 100%. He's right. We can get control by holding management accountable, file the grievances, just file and file. You will get compliance. Yeah. We tell you guys that.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

I'll bet you uh Rich and I have never talked about this, but I'll bet you that from the time that Rich and I met and we had the opportunity to train all of his folks, I'll bet you from that day moving forward for months, if not longer, management was like in convulsions. They're probably just they didn't know what to do with themselves. It makes them pissed off when we start winning. When we start using the rules, laws, and regulations against them, they hate it. And then they do things like say, uh, we're gonna we're gonna report your doctor to the OIG. Okay, report them. That sounds good. In fact, we should report you too for getting in the way of me getting better. It's just the craziest things happen when they start losing.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

And uh, but that's what it takes. Unfortunately, that's what it takes.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Rich Royce said it took me a few years to understand OWCP. Trust me. Yeah, I'm still learning and I listened to him.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Me too, Rich.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Uh, Christopher Kane said everyone needs to print out a CA form and have them ready in a folder to make themselves familiar with the process because it is not the time to learn when you're hurting. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Oh man, Christopher, that is so true. I say it a different way.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

If you wait until you need it to get it, it's too late.

SPEAKER_04 39:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Yeah, 100%. You gotta know this stuff already, at least a basic understanding.

SPEAKER_04 39:10

At least the main steward and the union president should have the basic forms and with the at least dummy it down and help your people. Like Chris always says, discuss it in fourth grade terms. It's hard, even filling out the paperwork. If you guys watch us two weeks ago, Chris went over the CA1 line by line, and it's still confusing to a lot of you, and we understand. Jack, or go to your website, right? Don't you have the forms?

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Yeah, that's true. I have I do have all the forms. I should have thought of that myself, but thanks, Jack.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

All the forms are at federal injurycenters.com.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

Umledge is power, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:45

I'll be honest, I don't have the forms for when somebody dies. I just it's too sad.

SPEAKER_04 39:49

Yeah, he doesn't want to even put that form.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

It's too sad for me. So you won't find those there.

SPEAKER_04 39:53

In all the times that we've done chats, I think two people in 10 years have asked us for those forms. And when they talked about it on chat, he wasn't very happy because that's it's sad.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

It's devastating.

SPEAKER_04 40:03

Yeah, just to have to explain about the form and what you need to do with it for the spouse to handle it. It's so sad.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Yeah, I don't like to talk about that or disability.

SPEAKER_04 40:12

Yeah. What else?

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Yeah, Rich said that management does hate it.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Oh, he did, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Yeah, when we get in there and start kicking their ass, they're like, wow, God, here we go.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

A lot of you get so scared and because you're getting threatened, you're getting written up, or whatever it is that management thinks that they're gonna do. But you have to grieve these things. Go to your higher up. Today somebody asked me, they had no clue who this no, yesterday they asked me, do you by any chance know who the state president is in the state? They asked me. And I'm like, Yeah, here it is. How is it that I know and you guys don't know? And we heard this actually, we were in Utah at an APW state convention, and we just have I happened to be there, and the NBA said one of the number one things, and he asked the audience, which had some local presidents and stewards, are you telling your people who you are, what your position is? Are you introducing yourself? Like, hey, that's what I always say. Yeah, and I went back and I told him, hey, look at what the NBA said. I'm the president of local whatever, I'm the state president, I'm the steward. You have to let these people know because we hear it all the time. They have no clue who you are. And with as many people that are running around everywhere, it is hard, but you should go around and tell everybody who you are. Like everybody knows that Victor is a craft director, a steward. Oh, yeah. Everybody knows. Everybody knows Rich Ray is an awesome NALC president.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

So yeah, the picture of Maria.

SPEAKER_04 41:40

It's funny when management tells an injured USPS employee to go to their own doctor. Heck no. You have the right to choose your own doctor. Stop believing management lies. And we've talked about this so many times. Where this girl called me and she said, Is it true? I can't remember what it was. And I told her, No, that's not right. What management is telling you is not true. And she goes, you know what? I'm gonna actually listen to management. And then three months later, she winds up calling us. So we're not telling you lies on here. And I know you want you don't want to go against your management and you think that they know everything. Sometimes they really don't, especially on OWCP. Maria said, I learned about OWCP here, super appreciated, and have your books very informative. Awesome. And we know a lot of you have taken all the information in the last 10 years that we've given you and used it and helped other coworkers, and that's what we want. Yeah, because we can't do it alone. What else do you guys have?

SPEAKER_02 42:41

Oh yeah, maybe have some on a different page. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:47

Tammy! Tammy. We're just seeing it, Tammy. We love you too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

I hope Tammy's still here. Yeah, she is. I see it. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_04 42:56

All right. What other questions do you guys have?

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Yeah, anything. No topic is off limits. Yeah, 10 years, Victor. We started we started on a love seat in our family room in 2016 with poor lighting, bad camera, terrible sound, but you folks stuck with us. So really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

Where Teresa says nothing to be scared of. Management has very little power. All they know how to do is intimidate people, but it's all the noise. They write you up. The burden of proof is not on management.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

It is on management.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

Is on management. And trust me, they don't know their own regulations. There is nothing to be afraid of. This is not a license to be disrespectful. This is just information to empower you to stand on your own two feet. Nothing to be afraid of. Yeah, we say that. That's exactly what he said. I'm gonna pin that actually to the bottom of the page. Frank, thank God for the book. You're so sweet. I remember the first time Rich Ray said how he found us. He happened to be scrolling through Facebook and we popped up. I don't even think we had a I think it was just on my page on its own before we even had Wednesday night chats. I don't I don't even know how we thought of the name. It was something I just thought of. It was just a random Wednesday and it made sense. It was her idea for sure. Frank, you guys are great. Aww.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

I guess it looks like we're going to wrap it up a little bit early tonight. That's okay. We don't have other questions. But the topic was really important. I plan on working on it more. Anyone that has some ideas on how to get management to obey the rules, I'm wide open to hearing it and adding it to my list. But just a just to repeat myself, I think the key that I've learned is document everything. Emails are awesome. When you're emailing you specific rules, it's my understanding this role means the following. Can you confirm my understanding? Sending documentation to your claims examiner by e-comp and receiving a response back and showing that response to the supervisor. And then using all of that documented evidence to file grievances and contact your congressional reps and so forth. OIG, OCS, or whatever it is. I'm learning these as I go to get tons of documentation and use it against management. And I'm sorry you have to do that. And I'm sorry this is even a topic that I need to teach about, but it needs to be taught.

SPEAKER_04 45:31

Let's see. Maria said, Rich Ray, what's the verbiage on grievance for intimidation? You can message Maria. Victor said, No more mangoes. Are you crazy?

SPEAKER_02 45:42

No, it doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

It doesn't make sense, Victor. Rich Ray, I love you both. Truly do.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

We love you too, Richie.

SPEAKER_04 45:48

Frank said, bring them behind the woodshed. Woodshed night is coming up soon, guys.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Yeah, this is just a little piece of it. You wait. When woodshed night comes, I'll have this one down really good. It'll be a strong topic.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

When we were in Utah, I don't know where we were driving, but there was a bunch of woodsheds, and I told Chris, and it was like far off, we'd have to go find how to get off the road. And I told Chris, I should take a picture with you for woodshed night behind there.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

Thank you so much for all you for all of you being validated is a godsend. Aw, Julie, thank you. And you're new here with us. Yeah, it's really awesome.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Be sure you keep coming back.

SPEAKER_04 46:21

Yes. I'm not 100% sure, but by next Monday, if we don't do chats next week, only because we are flying to Montana from Atlanta on Sunday to do the Western Region Conference for Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and Oregon. Chris is going to be training, doing a two-hour class there. So I don't know if I can't remember if it was Tuesday he's doing it or Wednesday. But if we're not, if we're doing it Tuesday, we'll figure out and we'll come on Wednesday to do chats. So you guys can will be able to hop on. Rich Ray said J S O V. What does that mean? He's just replying. Oh. Oh, you're welcome, Bill. Thank you. Don't forget, everybody, it's 8 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. If you're trying to tag your friends, make sure you do the at sign and then their name. On your end, it should show up blue, just like when you're typing in on comments. So it should show up blue because if you just put their name, you're not going to, they're not going to get the notification. And don't forget to follow the page, or else you won't know when we go live or what our topics are going to be. And then so we have it on Facebook and YouTube. For those coworkers that don't like to get on social media, you can find it on YouTube and all of our past chats from 2016 is on YouTube. There's hundreds of them. All right. Oh, statement of violence. JSOV Jointman Joint Statement of Violence. Oh, fight for your rights and never give up. That's Victor, that should be your tagline. That's his tagline every time he comes on chats, and we love it. Thank you guys for all the hearts. You guys are so sweet. They're so sweet. Now, don't forget, even if you're not a hockey fan, you have to chair for the Utah Mammoths. Okay. So go cheer for the Utah Mammoths because their game is coming on in two hours and they have to win tonight against the Las Vegas Knights.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

An hour and 11 minutes, in fact. All right. We are going to end it early. Thank you so much for being here and sticking with us for 10 years. And Julie, you were new. Thank you for the rest of you that were new. We look forward to having you back again, and hopefully we'll be back with you next week.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

Yeah. All right, guys. We are in Atlanta for AFGE District District 5 convention. So those of you that are here can't wait to see you guys. Have everybody.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

All right, good night.