(Chats 6-3-26) How to File a Federal Workers Comp Claim: CA-16, COP & Beating Bad Management

Are you risking your federal workers' comp benefits just to keep the peace at work? In this episode of Breaking OWCP, Chris and Gini break down "Thing #25" from their Volume 4 guide: Forget Your Supervisor’s Feelings. Management's primary job is to process your paperwork and get out of the way, but fear of retaliation often pushes federal employees into making devastating mistakes with their CA-1, CA-2, and CA-16 forms. Learn exactly why waiting to report an injury, going to the agency's preferred urgent care, or accepting invalid limited-duty offers will tank your claim—and what you need to do to fight back and get the help you deserve.

Key Takeaways & Authority Directives

• The Danger of Waiting: Delaying your injury report to avoid making management mad costs you access to a CA-16 (which pays medical bills for 60 days) and Continuation of Pay (COP for up to 45 days).
• Your Right to Choose: You have the absolute right to the initial selection of your physician. Going to a nurse practitioner at the agency's requested urgent care is a fast track to a denied claim.
• Handling Limited Duty Offers: Do not sign invalid limited-duty offers under duress. Always ensure your doctor reviews the offer against your CA-17 safety restrictions.
• The Power of Paper Trails: Document every single interaction with management via email and always copy your union representatives.
• Calling in Reinforcements: If supervisors ignore your safety restrictions, escalate the issue immediately to OSHA, your agency's OIG, EEO, or your congressional representatives.

Resources Mentioned

• Breaking OWCP Volume 4 Book: Currently unavailable for online purchase, but distributed for free to attendees at live training events.
• Crucial OWCP Forms: CA-1, CA-2, CA-16, and CA-17.
• Union Power: Special shoutout to the APWU for fiercely protecting their clerks and holding management accountable.

Website for Locations. www.federalinjurycenters.com
Contact: 877-787-OWCP or message us Facebook
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Wednesday Night OWCP Chats with Chris & Gini

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome back to the Breaking O WCP Podcast. Join Chris and Jeannie as they bring you expert advice on Federal Workers Comp guiding you step by step to get back to work the right way. Let's break down the barriers and get you the help you deserve.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Everybody, welcome to Wednesday night OWCP chats with Chris and Jeannie.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

As you can see, our technology problem from last week is still here this week. So we're back to 2016. That's the way it looks now. Just a better background.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Yeah. Anyway, tonight we are going to be discussing number no thing number 25. Is it from the book? Yeah. It is. If you have volume four book, thing number 25 is in volume four book. Volume four.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

This one.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

So if you know what thing 25 is, give us some hearts.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

If you don't have the book already, you can't buy it. I no longer sell it. Instead, you just got to be live at an event that I'm teaching at, and we have these books there. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

So let's see. We don't have oh, we any housekeeping? The only housekeeping we have is we head to Jersey tomorrow. We get to see my brother. So I'm excited. We're gonna go see my brother for the weekend and just go do a little quick tour of Manhattan.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Gotta get some day Portnoy.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Pizza. If you are from New York, Manhattan area, what is the best pizza you guys think is in Manhattan? Or even Brooklyn?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

If it's not thin, crust, and crispy, don't even bother telling me. Yeah. Because I can get thick, crappy pizza anywhere in Florida. Yes. I want the good stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Hey Norax, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

What's up?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

All right. Let me go ahead. In the meantime, I will share, and Chris will tell you why he decided to do thing number 25 in volume four book.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I've never really done this topic, although I talk about it all the time. More and more, I feel like the things that I say here are getting me in trouble, but I'm probably going to say more of those things tonight. I'm going to start with this is a supervisor problem. And I maintain that supervisors are either dumb or playing dumb, but I'll add this to it. Some of them are malicious and some of them aren't trained. But the most of them are just dumb. Thing number 25 is forget your supervisor's feelings. Wow, Chris, forget your supervisor's feelings. That doesn't sound like a great training topic. It's a fantastic training topic because it's maybe your biggest problem outside of not having doctors that know how to write reports and get claims accepted. Your next biggest problem is your hesitation for reporting an injury because you're scared. Scared of the system, scared of management, and scared of the system. Okay, we can simplify the system. We do that here on chats. Scared of management, that's where I don't care what my supervisor thinks comes in. Forget your supervisor's feelings. I don't care about my supervisor's thoughts. What they think doesn't matter. I was just talking to somebody about this, and I said the only thing that a supervisor is really supposed to do in OWCP is what are we talking about? Gloves. I like gloves. Who's Sam Gloves? My channel is about gloves as well. Sam, get out of here. He's on YouTube.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Sam, we don't talk about gloves heads for you.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

All right, everyone. Sorry about this joker with the gloves. Get out of here, man. Totally threw me off. I'd never get stumped. But I was saying about not caring about supervisors' feelings. I don't even know where I was at because of the glove guy.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

And I'm sharing.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Dude, nobody's gonna buy your gloves here. We don't care about your gloves. Go sell surgical gloves to doctors. All right, I'm back. This was a bad day to ask me to buy surgical gloves. Here I am dealing with camera stuff and talking about supervisors who are my least favorite people. And I got some jerkwad trying to sell surgical gloves to a non-doctor. All right. Sell some masks too while you're at it. All right, for the guy who's not ever gonna do a surgery and need it. Anyways, you could be dead tomorrow, your supervisor would replace you. And you can be struggling to sleep tonight, and your supervisor is gonna be sleeping like a baby, no problem at all. And now I remember what I was saying. Their whole job in OWCP is to fill out the paperwork and get the hell out of your way. And unfortunately, they don't get the hell out of your way, they stay in the way. And who was I talking to this about? Somebody I was talking to, and I was explaining this whole situation that if they would just get out of the way, everybody would get back to work faster, everybody would have better outcomes. Yeah, the whole system would be cleaner and smoother if management would just do their job. But for whatever reason, they behave as if the money comes out of their own pocket. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

I think everybody feels that way sometimes that the money comes out of their pocket.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

And I can't, I'm not even saying this is true. Okay. What I'm about to say, everybody listen to me. Read my lips. I'm not saying that the next thing I'm about to say is actually true. But what I am saying is a lot of people tell me that they wonder if management gets some sort of a bonus for not having injuries.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

I don't know if that's true. I've never even seen, I don't have any proof of it. But I can't think of a reason why management would do anything besides fill out the paperwork and get the hell out of the way. Yeah. And if I were a supervisor at any federal agency, I'd be wondering to myself, how much work do I want to do in OWCP? As close to zero as possible, which means if I fill out that one piece of paper on the CA1 or CA2, and it's not even paper anymore, and now it's on a computer. If I fill out this one piece of paper and click submit, I almost don't have to do that much stuff anymore. It sounds great if I don't have to do that much stuff anymore. Yeah. But instead, they just spend their all of their time in your way. So tonight I'm gonna talk about thing number 25. Forget your supervisor's feelings. And if you want to buy surgical gloves, just Google it.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

I always wonder if Sam Gloves is anonymous. He's on YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Man, I love anonymous. One day, one day, I'm gonna one day, hold on. One day, I'm gonna tell you what we mean. Every time she says hashtag hashtag anonymous.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

One day, I assure you, I will tell you. And it'll be in something like this.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

It'll be live too. Some of the stuff that we're dealing with will be like whole chapters in a book one day.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

For you to find out, you know what? What it takes to help you is a lot.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Let me just leave it there. It's a lot. And I gotta deal with the gloves, dude.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah. Yeah. Sam gloves.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

That's the best. Anyway. Whatever's in this glass, there's not enough of it to deal with that crap tonight.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

All right. Norax, I know you said we should come by the office tomorrow. Unfortunately, we will we're headed to a meeting on Friday morning. And then I, like I said, we're gonna see my brother on later on, and then again hang out with him on Saturday. Yeah, we're just coming for a short weekend to come hang out, and it was last-minute planned. So we're excited. And actually, tomorrow we leave pretty late. We don't get into New York till eight, nine o'clock.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

So a lot of Mike Joseph said, I think you referenced that there's a new rule about applying for scheduled awards every year versus the old rule was only when there was a change in the condition can you explain it. All right, so I actually didn't say that. I hope you don't have to apply every year. For sure. I hope you don't. My understanding still is if there's a change and things get worse is the only time you have to go again. And you don't have to go again. It's that's up to you.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Oh, that was from last week when you were talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, but it's not an every year thing for sure.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Unless someone's got better information than me, I just don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Yeah, and you can file a schedule award once you reached MMI. Maximum medical improvement. The doctor has to say that. And please file your schedule award before you pass away. Yeah, it's unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

It's the rule. Your deadline is death. So let's let's beat the deadline. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

All right, let me see what we got here on the other page.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

I like this topic. When I first came up with this 25-point list, which will be a 100-point list soon, trust me. Why didn't you have 100 points the first time? I don't know, but now I do. Anyways, number 25 used to be number 10. And then I said, that's a book. And if I'm gonna write a book, the grand finale is going to be number 25, which was number 10. Forget your supervisor's feelings. And let me tell you why that is, and I'm just gonna go into it. If you have questions like that schedule award question, Mike, thanks for the question. Just bring any question. I'm fine, I'm gonna answer everything you ask, no matter what my topic is. But let me explain, and this is while I'm explaining why you need to forget your supervisor's feelings, I'm gonna explain some things that you can do to improve your chances of having a successful OWCP experience. And hopefully that will become abundantly clear as I go through this. So the first place you forget your supervisor's feelings is reporting your injury because the CA 10, what a federal employee should do when injured at work, it says report as soon as possible. In my experience, over nearly 30 years of working in healthcare practices and doing workers' comp and talking to more of you than everybody else in the country combined has ever done. What I've learned is that many of you don't report soon, meaning now, immediately, today, because you're worried about what your supervisor is going to say, what they think. You're worried about them being mad at you, retaliating against you, firing you, which is retaliation. But you understand, like doing things that can damage your ability to pay your bills later on. And that's a serious problem. But when you're worried about your supervisor's feelings, then you're in the rub some dirt on it, crowd. You rub some dirt on it, hope it gets better, and then you wait a week, and then day eight comes and you're like, it's still hurting, I'm gonna report. Now you can't have a CA 16, which pays all your medical bills for the first 60 days, and you never have to pay it back. If you're really concerned about your supervisor's feelings and you wait a month, now you can't have COP either. Continuation of pay, which is good for up to 45 days of time off. So, what's happened? The very first thing you did by caring about your supervisor's feelings more than what's in your best interest is you lost the ability to pay your medical bills and you lost the ability to get paid to be out of work. And lots of times for a lot of people, that's the whole ballgame.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

And why'd you do that? Because you were worried about what your supervisor is going to think. But later on, it's still hurting, it's not getting better, and you get to the point where you're like, shoot, I've got to do something now. And now you're paying for it out of your pocket, and you're using your old sick in annual leave. And that sucks. But that's what happens. The very first thing that you do that has to do with caring about your supervisor's feelings is the very worst thing you can do in an OWCP claim. It's absolutely devastating to people when they don't have a way to pay their medical bills and they don't have a way to get paid for time off if they need time off. And again, let me just the asterisk and the time off thing is nobody wants you to be out of work, but it is a medical decision. And if you need to be, you need to be. But if you can't afford to be out of work, what are you gonna do? I always say, how are you gonna make it to retirement if you can't make it to your next or through your next work shift or to your next work shift? And so when you care about your supervisor's feelings, you do things like wait, and then you lose the most important benefits, which is absolutely awful for you. And then what comes next? The CA 10, the Code of Federal Regulations, the United States Code, the CA810, just name a few, say you have the right to choose your own doctor. It's management's job to tell you that you're right, and they can't force you to go to a doctor that's employed by or under contract with the agency. And you have the right to initial selection of physician, which means you can pick your own doctor in the beginning. And so, what you do so that you don't piss off management is they say go to the urgent care or the ER, and you say, Okay, just don't be upset with me. I'll go there too. Look, you can go anywhere you want. If you would like, because it's your choice wherever you go. Let me just stop. If I were to tell you now, everyone listen close. Remember Wolfle Wall Street? You listen and you listen well. I've never even heard anybody say you listen well, but you listen and you listen well. If anybody tells you what doctor you have to go to, you don't have to. You know who else that means? Me. I can't even tell you where to go. I could say, you know what? I've got an office in wherever America. You should go there. You know what you should think? Maybe not. I'm gonna go wherever I want to go because it's my right.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Nobody can tell you where to go. Nobody. This is so frustrating to me because I'd love to be able to tell people where to go because where would I tell them to go? I don't know, wherever you're gonna win in an OWCP claim. But nobody can do that. Nobody, not me, not her. No doctor can say you must come here. If you go to an urgent care first, they can't make you come back again. And your supervisors, above all, cannot force you to go anywhere. The choice of doctor is yours. It doesn't matter what anybody says, including me, you go to your own doctor. But you give a crap about your supervisor's feelings, don't you? Yeah. You know what? I said crap. I didn't even use a bad word.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Yeah, good. I'm glad.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Because you care so much about your supervisor's feelings, you go to the urgent care where there's a nurse practitioner and no MD. And so if any reports get sent in, they get sent in with a nurse practitioner's signature. And specifically, your claim is denied because a nurse practitioner is not a qualified physician in OWCP unless there's a counter signature by an MD. So you did that because you cared about your supervisor's feelings. Or you go to family practice doctor or an ER doctor or wherever, and they don't even know how to bill OWCP. They don't accept OWCP. They can't spell DOL. And so they want to know what your health insurance is. So you give them your health insurance because now you're worried about what the doctor thinks. And the doctor bills your health insurance. The health insurance is gonna ask you for copays and deductibles, but the most important thing that's gonna happen to you is they're not going to send your medical documentation in to OWCP. They're gonna send it to Blue Cross or wherever. And now you're gonna lose your COP because they don't receive your medical bills or your documentation within 10 days. All of this happened because you were worried about your supervisor things.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

You didn't get a CA 16 to pay your bills, you didn't get COP to cover your time off, and you didn't pick your own doctor, so you went to the one that they sent you to that was a certain denial. That's the ballgame.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

All right. Melissa Williams.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Wow, Chris, you're fired up tonight. I know.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

Melissa Williams said, I did a virtual MMI, and the doctor absolutely only asked me a few questions, then gave me a 7% on my rotator, cuff, and bicep. My hip was out of socket, put no surgery. It will be five years in August. How do I get a second opinion?

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Go to another doctor who knows how to do a six-edition impairment rating and get a different impairment rating. That's perfectly fine. It's within your right to do so. OWCP very likely will not pay for the second one, but you can. Doctors will do it for cash. I don't like that because we don't take cash, we don't take money from anybody ever, no matter what, but others do. You can go someplace else. As far as the hip goes, if you don't have that hip as an accepted condition, you can't get an MMI on that.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Hey, Frank.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

What's up, Frank?

SPEAKER_03 16:05

Victor.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

By the way, Melissa, if that didn't answer your question fully, just ask me something else and I'll get you. I'll give you what I can.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Victor said hello, hello, Chris. Hope you're doing well. Could you please explain how long an employee could be out on OWCP? Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

It's a medical decision. You can be out as long as the doctor needs you to be out, but depending on your craft, especially at the post office, after a year or two years, you start having to deal with not being able to do that job and that craft and needing help from your union, which you should all be getting. You should all be getting help from your union. Ah, Chris, you're just carrying water for the union. No, I just think that they're the best. That's where I was talking to, Richie Ray. Oh, yeah. I did the Hot House podcast. Yeah. Saturday I did Richie's podcast. Look for it next Saturday, it'll be out. But I was telling them that what was I just saying? Sorry, I was reading. Asking you, you're not gonna remember. No. Anyways, oh Victor. Oh yeah. So you can be out, but they can replace you, they can remove you from the position. And anyways, that sucks. We want you to go back to work as soon as possible so that doesn't happen. But how long can you be out? Technically, you can be out for years. Can be, but they don't like it very much. And it's not good for you to not be able to go to work and clock in.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Melissa said both are accepted claims. Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Oh, okay. Great. All right. Any other questions before I talk about more things about management?

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Not yet. When he's talking about supervisors and management, mind you, in my post that I did on chats, I said there's a handful that are far and few that are really good supervisors. We have a lot of friends that are supervisors. So I just told Richie that actually don't think that we're talking about every supervisor. We know there's a handful that are great that went from whatever position they were in to a supervisor. And sometimes you just can't fault them. And the ones that don't know just don't know. And I was telling Chris this the other day, I got a text message from somebody and he asked me because his restrictions. So I told him he needed a CA 17. When I told him he needed a CA 17, his supervisor said, that's not true, and there's no such thing as a CA 17 for work restrictions. I was like, no, that's it. Here's what happens when you guys ask me a question and I give you the answer, I'm giving you the real answer. So when you tell me that's not what my supervisor says, and you're gonna listen to the supervisor, then I can't help you anymore. I've given you the right answer. I even sent the rule, I even sent the CA 17, and you still didn't want to listen. So there isn't much I can do to help you.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

We've talked about that before. I remember this one time that somebody asked her a question, and just to confirm the answer, she asked me. And I gave the answer. It's the same one she was gonna give. And so she told the answer back to the person, and the person said, Well, that's not what my supervisor says, so I'm gonna go do what they said.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Guess what happened? They came back later.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Because it didn't work out for them.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Three months later, they came back.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Look, nobody ever accused me of not being cocky. All right. And I'm telling you, if the supervisor says something and I say something, and you go with the supervisor, expect bad things to happen. Because they don't have your best interest in mind. And that takes me back to my topic. If you care so much about what your supervisor says that you ignore me and do what they say, man, that's a bad problem. It's a serious problem because they don't know anything about OWC.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

If I did a supervisor training class, I'd have to tell them more stuff than I tell the claims examiners. And that's not even a joke. I gotta tell them a lot of stuff, and they won't like any of it because they're so bad at this. But you can be great at it. You can win at OWCP by just doing thing number 25.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Yeah, we when we were training claims examiners, this is that was our third. They were very nice people, by the way. We've trained them three times already. And so when we trained them, we heard that there's only hundreds of them. And there's probably, and I'm probably exaggerating when I'm saying hundreds, and there's three million federal employees. Have a little patience, just a little. Okay. Victor, we have good supervisors and bad stupid visors. Yes. Facts. Patricia, I'm out on OWCP. I've been off since December 16th. This week, carpal tunnel was added to my injury from 2017. Can I apply for a schedule award?

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Okay. Carpal tunnel was added. It must now be accepted. Let's assume it is accepted. Can you apply for a schedule award? I love can and can't questions. Yes, you can apply for a schedule award. They don't have to accept it, but the upper extremities, including the wrist, carpal tunnel, are absolutely on the schedule award chart.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

So as long as the condition is approved, you can get a schedule award for that condition. Yes. Great question.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

Christina, what can a person do if your post office will now okay, will not follow what the doctor's orders are?

SPEAKER_01 21:18

We get this question all the time. Yeah, number one, you go visit your union reps and file a grievance. Number one, file a grievance right away.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Oh, she said it was accepted.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Okay, great. Yeah. Patrice, yes, you can apply for scheduled work. But if you're okay, post office, any supervisor, not just post office, they won't follow your doctor's work restrictions. What they're doing is they're not following safety restrictions. Look at it in those terms. Instead of work restrictions, call them safety restrictions. Because the doctor's only writing restrictions to keep you safe. The doctor has nothing to do with your job. He has to do with your safety. So in OSHA, what does E S stand for?

unknown 21:59

So

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Safety.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

So the next thing I would do is call 1-800-321-OSHA and I would say, Hey, my supervisor is not following my doctor's restrictions. Is that a violation? And I think you'll find that it is. The other thing you can do is talk to your agency's OIG. The inspector general is there to not just monitor you, but to monitor all things, including misconduct. If the supervisor is not following doctor's orders, I think it could be argued that's misconduct. The point I'm making is tell everybody. If they if none of that works, talk to your congressperson. Tell everyone. And if you will all do that, then by and large, supervisors will stop doing that.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

And the only reason supervisors get over on you all and all is because none of you really push back. And following a grievance is a great stop, but or a great start, but it's not fully pushing back. For me, the weight of the world landing on top of somebody is fully pushing back. So whatever that is, I would do it all.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Yeah. Those of you that are just topping on, we're going over number 25 in this book. If you have the book, you'll know what number 25 is. So we're going over that.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Are there any other questions?

SPEAKER_03 23:12

No, not so far.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

25. Forget your supervisor's feelings. So we started.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Hold on. Oh. Patricia Patrice said, Thank, thanks, thank you guys. I also filed a grievance because management is saying they didn't have any work for my restrictions that are 10 pounds. I'm a lead clerk. I only do timekeeping.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

That's an interesting thing. So I don't care what my supervisor thinks. All right, I need a limited duty assignment based on my restrictions for my doctor's CA 17. And the supervisor says they don't have any work for me. They're required to make every possible effort to find work for you. And if they can't, then you're home getting paid LWAP. And you're likely going to be on the rolls. And so what I want you to do, and everybody listen, you listen and you listen well. Send an email to your supervisor, copy your union rep, and say it's my understanding that you don't have any work for based on my restrictions available for me, and therefore I'm going to have to stay home. Can you confirm my understanding that you did everything possible to find work for me and you couldn't find it? And then send that email. That way you will have uh basis to get paid LWAP, and you'll let your supervisor or your claims examiner know, hey, I did everything I could. I even reached out to management, and they responded by saying no, they didn't have any work for me, or they ignored my email and didn't respond at all. But now you've got good written documentation.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

Yeah. I know we and we always tell you guys this we don't want you to have problems with your supervisor at all.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

But it's bad enough as it is.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Like Chris always says, what if you do, what do you do when the red light if you're stuck at a red light that never turns green, what do you do? Sometimes you just have to, and you know you gotta run it. You just have to talk to the union about these grievances and telling them what the supervisor is doing. We know that possibly there may be retaliation and all the other horror things that are that that come with that. But it's your life, it's your health, it's your body. They are not going to care if you're not at work anymore. Remember that. We always say that.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

And the code of federal regulations, the United States Code and OSHA itself says it's a crime to retaliate. But you care too much about what your supervisor thinks, and so you don't do anything about it. And that's why they keep retaliating.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

Yep. And then you're pretty much screwed from there. So stop being scared of the supervisor, Victor always says don't be scared of your supervisors. What other questions, guys?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

While we're waiting on new questions, let me just give a recap. So I started with saying, I don't care what my supervisor thinks. Stop caring about your supervisor's feelings, their emotions, their anger, their dislike, their frustration. Who cares? Here's the deal: your injury is legit. If it's not, you shouldn't have filed it. A legit injury deserves to get help. You have a right as a federal employee to get help. The supervisor has no right to get in the way. It is a crime for them to deter you from reporting your injury, filing your injury. They can't do that to you. It is actually a crime. But you so you can't care what they think. And if you do care, then you wait and you don't get a CA 16 to pay your medical bills. You wait even longer. You don't get continuation of pay to pay for your time off. You go whatever to whatever doctor they tell you to go to, which is a certain denial, because they're probably lazy and just saying go to urgent care down the road or go to the ER who don't know how to handle you, and now you get a big bill, or they bill your regular health insurance, and that means none of the documentation goes into OWCP, and 10 days later you lose your COP. Yep. It's just a total disaster in the very beginning of an OWCP claim for you to care what your supervisor thinks. It's a total disaster. Everyone that I've ever talked to who did not get a CA 16, did not elect COP, and did not choose their own doctor, had a terrible time in OWCP. No exception to that. If you just do those three things, your odds go way up of having a good time in OWCP. Not a good time, it's not a party, but like not having a bad experience. And I'll get to more things in a minute. What's Alicia saying there?

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Okay, hold on. Let it pop up on my thing here. Okay, I'm gonna start there. Alicia, hello. Roll carrier, May 2025. Amazon package contents shifted, tore rotator, coffin, shredded bicep. I thought I would get better, used leave and FMLA, then filed OWCP August 25. Approved, had surgery in December, got all back pay in February, and had received monthly payments since a doctor says I can go back to work with 10-pound restrictions, was offered modified assignment with assistance for anything over 10 pounds. I declined because we do not have the people or the logistics to cover me. I have emailed OWCP and HR to ask my next step. What do I do now? Do I retire? Do I quit? Get fired? What's next?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Okay. Alicia, if I heard you right, the reason you didn't accept your limit, your limited duty offer is because you were worried about your coworkers, which is admirable. But you had a shoulder and a bicep problem that doesn't get better by going above your doctor's restrictions. I don't have a thing 26 that says I don't care what my co-workers think, because I do. But if you care about what they think so much that you're not willing to get better, then you're going to be asking questions like, do I retire, do I quit, do I get fired? Whereas if you just follow the system, the way the system was built to be followed, and you report your injury immediately, you get a CA 16, you get COP, you choose your own doctor, you get your claim accepted, you get all the treatment, procedures, surgeries that you need, and then you get back to work full duty. You know whose job it is to make sure that your coworkers are not overloaded? Management. It's their job, not your job. Your job is to get better. I want you back at work as soon as humanly possible. I want you on the clock, I want you having no restrictions, and I want your coworkers to not be inconvenienced. But more than anything else, I want you to be okay. And the you is anybody that's hurt because your coworkers are gonna be just fine. They're gonna figure it out. Management, if they're any good at all, and I know they're not, but if they are, the ones that aren't, they can figure it out. But it's not your job to figure it out for them.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Alicia, I can't really tell on your profile picture, but you don't look old enough to retire.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Yeah, don't do that if you don't have to. But again, it is a with all that said, in the position you're at now, it's your personal decision. You got to make a life decision. What do you want to do? Yeah. Do you want to retire? Do you want to quit? I don't want you to get fired for sure. Could you go on disability? Yeah, that's a medical decision too. But the best thing, in my opinion, not being a doctor at all, is to tell you to just get better all the way and make it to retirement. And I hope you do. And I'm really pulling for you, Alicia. I hate that that's your situation.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Yeah. Jack said, prioritize your health over their feelings. It's only going to hurt you down the line, otherwise. He's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

That's exactly right. And my goal is for you not to get hurt at all. Period. That's why I do this. I don't want you getting hurt by the system, by management, by your injury, by your job. I don't want you to get hurt. I want you to be okay. And I'm very passionate about that. I'm not sure if you can tell. And you're very welcome.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Yeah. You have to remember, we know going to appointments two, three times a week to try to get yourself better, it sucks.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

We go to doctor's appointments all the time.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

I'm old. Yeah. But what you need to make sure is you take care of yourself. Yep. Bobby, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Bobby.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

I'm in a RMPO office and I went for an IME. They want me to take a 15-minute break every hour with a 20-pound restriction. Oops, hold on. 20-pound restriction. I'm in the office by myself. The office, the offer I receive states that I can leave 20-pound parcels in their canvas cart and I can have a customer come in and get it out of the canvas cart, which I know is a no-no. Also, they said I can sit for 15 minutes and help the customer with my doc with my doctor said no, they are not willing to give me no help in this one main office. So I keep turning down the modified duty assignment. I don't feel my boss is doing enough to try to find me work because my APO office is an 18. What can I do?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

All right. The rules on limited duty assignments state that your doctor writes the restrictions on a CA 17. They go that goes into management, assuming your claims approved. Management has to make every effort to find a job that suits your restrictions. And then you have to accept any job that is within your restrictions. You have to accept them. If you don't accept them, they cut your benefits off until you do. That's not fair, but I always say OWCP is not spelled F-A-I-R. So you saying I just won't accept it, it's really your doctor. What does your doctor say? If your doctor says yes, this works within your restrictions, I'm telling you you're required to do it by rule. In fact, by law, the code of federal regulations is very clear about it. That you're given up to 30 days to review the offer with your doctor. And then the doctor, if the doctor disagrees and that disagreement doesn't match what the claims examiner thinks, they'll give you 15 more days to figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

All right. But you really do have to take any valid job offer that the claims examiner feels is valid and the doctor feels is valid.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

Victor said, Cheers, Chris. RMPO is related to USPS. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

And by the way, while you're at it, Victor, what does RMPO stand for?

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Yeah. Patrice said, my modified assignment was rescinded after management found out I filed a grievance. I filed an EEO, contacted my Congress and the OIG. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Bobby followed up with she says, no, that they need to give me help. I'm assuming she is the doctor. And what the doctor's got to do is probably update the CA 17 and maybe write a brief little report explaining why the limited duty offer doesn't work. That's gonna need to go both to your management manager and your claimed examiner. Very important.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Thank you, Victor. And he said level 18 is the size of the office. Okay, this is great.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

All right.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Yeah. What does RMPO stand for, though, Victor? Or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Bobby, I'm really pulling for you. This is a situation that's not uncommon. This happens all the time.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

All the time. But you got to follow the rules completely. The limited duty offer goes to you and the claimed examiner. The claimed examiner reviews it and says, I think it's a good offer. You give it to the doctor, the doctor says yes or no. If it's no, you better have a good reason. And if it's yes, it goes back and then you accept it. That's the rules. And I know I said it fast, but I just told you that is the rules. That's how it works.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

That is the rules. Those are the rules. All right.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

So remote post Remote Place. Oh, okay. We just saw today, and Chris just saw it. Like there was a post office inside of a gas station. Yeah, there was a gas, there's a gas station, little convenience store, and then the post office. And it's so funny because it's they have a ton of them in off of Dale Mabry in Tampa, and he just barely noticed.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Fill up with expensive gas, and then while you're at it, buy some stamps.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

Can Victoria I don't think Victor's paying attention to me tonight?

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, it's all right.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Victor. All right, what else, guys?

SPEAKER_01 34:55

All right, so let's go back to why you shouldn't care about your supervisor's feelings besides the fact that waiting makes you lose a 16, it makes you lose COP, you don't choose your own doctor because you're worried about management. This issue of the limited duty offers was something I was going to talk about anyway, so I'll do it now. Many of you, too many of you, in fact, an incredible number of you, are being told that you've got to sign limited duty offers that you disagree with under protest or under duress duress. The rules don't say the words protest or duress anywhere. That's not in the rules. You don't have to do that. But I think what's happened is so many of you had such a bad time with management that you've just put up the white flag, thrown your hands up, and said, okay, fine, I'll just take it. But that's caring what management thinks.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

And they're not allowed to fire you if you don't accept it. They're not allowed to retract the offer if you don't accept it. You're gonna have to talk to your claims examiner, to your OIG, you're gonna have to talk to EEO, you're gonna have to talk to OSHA, and you're gonna have to write a letter to your congressperson saying, hey, I'm following all the rules. Why aren't they required to follow the rules? In fact, our partner Tom spends a lot of time in DC. And once he was up there talking to a staffer for somebody in Congress, and they said, if you could just get one thing, what would it be? And Tom said, if they could just follow the rules, we'd all be okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

If they would follow the rules, everything would be fine. And the staffer was taken back by it, saying, What do you mean they don't follow the rules? And he said, No, they never follow the rules. They don't follow any of the rules. It's really ridiculous. But if you care too much about what management thinks, bad things are going to happen. Yeah. And that's not what we want.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Tamicia, my supervisor sent me a certified letter in the mail with the topic return to work. The letter stated, I'm a non-pay status under OWCP LWAP since 125, and notification was to advise me about the effects my work-related injury may have on my employment status. However, I'm outdo ankle surgery per OWCP from 425. My doctor not released me to work yet. My supervisor's asking me to advise her if I would be on LWAP, FMLA, or AWOL. This confuses me because I'm still getting paid from workers comp.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

I don't know your supervisor, and so I can't fully understand the intentions. I can make an assumption that when they said or AWOL, that was a threat. What you need to do, assuming your claim is accepted, you had surgery. I think it said that right. Whatever. I think your claim's accepted. Have your doctor fill out a new CA 17 and turn it in. That's all they need. Do you want to be on LWAP? That's none of your business, okay? If I can't work, I'll decide if I'm going to use SICANUL or LWAP. That's what I'm going to do. Do you want to use FMLA? Well, Family Medical Leave Act, meaning it's a law, is for me to decide, not for you to decide. And AWOL, that's just a threat. You fill out a CA 17 and they need to just go through the process of finding a limited duty offer, giving you a copy, giving it to the claims examiner, letting you show it to your doctor, and you'll get back with them when it's time. That's it. I don't care what my supervisor thinks. They're gonna be mad at me. So what? They're breaking the rules. They break the rules because you let them. So don't let them.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Yeah. Bobby said, I was also told being off the rolls for 365, I can lose my job.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yeah, you can definitely lose your assignment at work for sure, based on I think it's a city carrier, a clerk, and a mail handler have one year. I think role carriers have two.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Yeah. All right, what else, guys?

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Nestor.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

Nestor. Oh, here we go. Oh, it didn't pop up here. Sorry. Nestor says, I was injured in 2022. I was out for two years, two surgery. I finally got back to work in 2024. I continue my therapy until they said that I've been in therapy too long, but still feel pain while I'm working. Can I file a schedule award for this and how do I do it? Great question.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

You can file a schedule award. It depends on your injured body part. It depends on if your claim was accepted. If your claim's accepted and your injured body part is on the schedule award chart, you can file for a scheduled award. You need to get an impairment rating from your doctor. But I'm going to reread this. I was injured in 22. I was out for two years, had two surgeries, finally got back to work in 24. I continued my therapy until they said I'd been in therapy too long. Who's they? Because the only person in your situation that I'm aware of that has the authority to say you've had too much is your doctor. So who is they? And if they is a claims examiner, then I'd be curious what your accepted condition is. Too many doctors, just because they're lazy, they say this is a sprain or a strain. And so you start getting treatment and the claims examiner reasonably says it's just a sprain or a strain. Why isn't it better already? He's saying OWCP said it. Okay, so I'd like to know what your accepted condition is, Nestor, because if your accepting condition is a sprain, then you're going to get very little treatment approved. If it's say a herniated disc or ridiculopathy, you're going to get a lot of treatment approved, right? And that's the other thing. But OWCP can cut you off from therapy, but it's usually based on a weak diagnosis. So if you've been out all this time and you're still having pain, what I would do is go back to the doctor and say, hey, what do we need to do? What's my accepted condition? Do I need to get an MRI or a nerve test or something? Because I'm not getting better and I'm still in pain. And they won't let me have treatment anymore. And the only way they're going to let me keep having treatment so I can feel better is if we get this thing right. So that's my guess. It's just a guess because I don't know your accepted condition.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Victor, I just thought you couldn't hear me. That's all. Because I see you keep popping off. And then he goes on YouTube and then he comes back on Facebook.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Man, just stay in one place.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

Yeah, don't be like Sam Gloves at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Surgical gloves. What the heck?

SPEAKER_03 41:05

If you missed it while we're laughing, it's because some guy came on from YouTube and his name is at Sam Gloves asking if we wanted to buy some of his gloves.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

I gotta have surgical gloves. I gotta have surgical gloves. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Patrice. Can a clerk lose their bid for being out a year with an accepted OWCP condition?

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Short answer, yes. But the better answer is get with your union because the APW union, APWU union is very strong.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Yeah, ask Victor. Victor is one of their top guys.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Yeah, get with your rep and have him help you. In my experience, especially with APW, you your outcome's probably gonna be pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Yeah, and Patrice, if you want, you see where it says Victor Sanchez, you can always message him after the chat because he knows a lot.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

He's a clerk craft director.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

He's if I had a lifeline for post office questions, he's my lifeline.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

It would be Victor, yeah, and everybody knows that. What else, guys?

SPEAKER_01 42:08

While we're waiting on the what else, I think I pretty much hit it home. You can't care what management thinks.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

You can, but you shouldn't make any decisions based on it. You should do what's best for you. Choose your own doctor, demand a CA 16, elect continuation of pay on the CA1, and tell the management just get out of the way. Just get out of the way. I'm doing everything I can do. I want to get back to work. As much as you want me to get back, I also want to get back. But the best way for me to do that is for me to be able to follow the system as it's written in the law.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Has anyone ever asked their supervisor when they're filling this out and their supervisors being nasty? Have you said, what would you do if you were injured? Literally. Have any of you ever asked them that when they're giving you a hard time, when they're being nasty and when they're trying to say no, you're not injured? You should just ask them. We know a bunch of APW clerks in Alabama, Birmingham. Powerful people. They no one gets past them. The supervisors are scared of them. We're telling you this. They are definitely scared of those clerk stewards.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

They certainly don't buck up against them anymore. No, they don't they used to.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

They don't.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

They used to, but you know what? The APWU stewards there, they push back. Yeah, they do. They use the rules, and that's why they win.

unknown 43:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Good old APWU.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah. What else, guys? Any other questions?

SPEAKER_01 43:34

So I've been I was passionate about this tonight. I hope that comes across because of all the we've been traveling like nonstop. We're just almost never home. And everybody I talk to, there's this theme is that management, management this, management that. They don't obey the rules, they don't care about the rules. They're just they're bullies, they retaliate, they do all this stuff. The rules are clear that you don't have to care what they think. You just Have to follow the rules. So just follow the rules and document the hell out of it. Email, contact the claims examiner in writing. Let OIG know in writing. Contact EEO, OSHA. Do the things, contact your representatives in Congress. Do those things. And if you'll do it enough times, at least in your office, the problems will at least get smaller.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Maybe they won't go away, but you can make it better for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

But number one is you can't care what management thinks. I'm not telling you to be a jerk. I don't want you to fight with management. I don't want any of that stuff. But the rules are the rules. And there's no reason for you not to on your own. There's no reason for you not to follow them.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

They can break the rules. There's a consequence to that. But you got to follow them. And in following them, you report right away. And by the way, if you wait to report, they're going to probably write you up because you waited. All right. That's what a jerk does. Okay. They retaliate if you report, they write you up if you wait. So don't wait. Okay. If they retaliate, they're in trouble. If you wait, now you got to go to your union and you've got to say, hey, help me out of this situation because I exercise my rights. I reported within three years, which is on time, and management's still writing me up. I don't care what they think, though. All right, you gotta follow the rules. And if you do that, things are gonna work out better for you.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Frank, yes, we are so rooting for the Knicks after how many years? 27 years, I think. 94 or 99 was our last win. So yeah, we are definitely watching the Knicks game this for the finals. It's gonna be a good one. No, I've got it in right now.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

And let me tell you something. I'm a lifelong Dallas Mavericks fan. Everyone, just go ahead and skip the ribbon-me about it. I already know how bad that is. It does suck. But as a result of it, I am not a San Antonio Spurs fan.

SPEAKER_04 45:45

No.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

And therefore, by default, I'm a Knicks fan for at least the next couple weeks.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Yeah, but I'll tell you, those San Antonio fans, I have to say, they are great fans. I don't know if we mentioned when we were there, the game finished at 10. From 10 p.m. to 2 a.m. And our hotel was on the river walk and by the main road. They honked for literally from 10 a 10 p.m. to 2 a.m. Yeah. The whole time. Yeah. So we're definitely rooting for the Knicks.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

But you can't keep me awake. I slept right through it.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Yeah. Bobby, he said, Victor, so after my one year, how long will it be before they tell me my employment is terminated? Victor, that question is for you if you're still on.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Yeah, he is. He'll get to it.

SPEAKER_03 46:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

All right, everyone. Look, it looks like we're going to end a little bit early, and that's okay. All of you go and make your favorite iced tea, lemonade, or whatever, and watch the Knicks root against San Antonio.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

Oh, wait, Tamicia said, I know I live here.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Okay. It was so cool, though. Sorry, Tamicia, but I am rooting against San Antonio.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Yeah, but it was cool. You guys have the greatest fan base for an after game. Oh, we were just blown away. It was so cool.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

I can't help it. Look, if it was like a Philadelphia Eagles game, I'd be rooting against them hardcore. All the way. I'm a Cowboys fan too. And by the way, you don't have to hit me for that one, too. I know how bad that is.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Here. Michael.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

We're gonna answer this last question.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Hi guys. Hi, Michael. Helping a carrier in my branch who has a back injury, doctor diagnosed as ridiculous. Claims examiner said that's not a valid diagnosis. Also had an MRI revealing a bulging disc. Told the doctor to add that as a diagnosis. Claims examinal still has not made any decisions. Any suggestions?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

You do have to be patient. There are hundreds of claims examiners and 2.8 million of you. And so they are overwhelmed. And they said that. They really are. But to say that ridiculopathy is not a valid diagnosis is incorrect. It has an ICD 10 code. ICD 10 is a medical thing for diagnosis. They get approved all the time. And with a bulging disc, ridiculopathy is not uncommon. Again, I'm not a doctor, okay? But I've seen 20,000 of these cases. It's not uncommon. So have your doctor write a rebuttal to this, do a reconsideration, and you'll probably win.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

And by the way, maybe send a letter to the claim examiner saying my diagnosis is ICD code whatever. Okay, numbers, letters, dot something else. Okay. And please confirm your understanding that this is a valid diagnosis code. Because in OWCP, the only invalid codes are pain, like low back pain. You can't diagnose low back pain, but ridiculopathy you can diagnose, and it gets approved all the time.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Yeah. Jacqueline said, Bobby Sloan, best get with the E O C.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

So you have options. Jack said, have a great night, guys. Good night.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Thanks, Jack.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Jack, let's go, Nick's, since you're out there. Victor, before we finish, one more thing. Fight for your rights and never give up. Never give up at all. Always says this. Never give up. Nancy said, Where do I get the book? I'm having trouble when I'm trying to buy breaking OWCP volume for, but it says link not available.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

That's because the book is no longer for sale. Send us on Wednesday night OWCP chats with Chris and Jeannie in the messenger.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

Your email address, and you'll have a Christmas present in your inbox.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Yeah, we give these books out, and this is what it looks like. This is volume four. We give these out when we go to state and national conventions or if we're doing OWCP training. It looks like July and August, we actually get to be home for probably two months, and I'm sure by then we'll have a whole list of everywhere we're training again.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

And Nancy, where are you located? I'm curious what part of the world you live in. Because there may be books floating around your union hall right now.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

Yeah, we leave, we always leave whatever we have left. We always leave them with the union president. Hundreds of books.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Probably a couple thousand.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

We've left so many books with unions because they do me no good. I wrote them. I know what's in them, and I can't even use them because I'm not a federal employee. You can, and I wrote it for you.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

But send us your email address and messenger, Nancy.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

All right, guys. We will see you back again next week, Wednesday at 8 p.m. Eastern Standard, right here on Facebook and YouTube. I will be putting out a post asking what topics you guys would like us to educate and train on. And then we'll go from there. Nancy's in Houston.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Houston. Yeah. I don't have any books in Houston. Your folks haven't invited me out yet.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Yeah. I know where Houston's at.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

I'm from Denton. I'm from Denton originally.

SPEAKER_03 50:29

Yeah. That's in the Dallas area, in case you never heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

I've been in Houston lots of times in my life.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Yeah. Tamusia, good luck with your Spurs and everybody else. Let's go next. All right, everybody. We'll see you guys next week. Bye, everybody. Have a nice day.