EP 39: Swing Science: How Unique Body Shapes Can Impact Your Golf Performance with Dr. Mike Kay

How does your body shape impact your golf swing? In this episode of The Golf Intervention, we sit down with Dr. Mike Kay to explore the science behind body types (wide vs. narrow), relative motion, and how they influence speed, efficiency, and overall performance.

Dr. Mike Kay is a Doctor of Physical Therapy with extensive expertise in biomechanics and athletic performance. He specializes in helping golfers optimize movement, increase speed, and prevent injuries through advanced training methods. He has a PT office in Scottsdale, AZ and also partners with Tony Greco and Chris Walkie at the Helix Golf Institute in North Murrieta, CA.  

We dive deep into:
✅ The differences between wide and narrow body structures and their effect on your swing mechanics
✅ How relative motion can help you move more efficiently and generate power
✅ Why "stability" is overrated in golf performance
✅ The who, what, when, where, why of speed training programs
✅ Practical takeaways to help you optimize your golf swing based on YOUR body type

If you want to swing faster, move better, and gain a competitive edge, this episode is packed with insights that can take your game to the next level.

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Transcript

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Today's episode of the golf intervention podcast is made possible by the premium content subscribers on the golf intervention substack. We would like to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. You make it all worthwhile. You can also subscribe to our free monthly newsletter in the same place. And that's www. thegolfintervention. substack. com or click the link in the show notes. And welcome back to the golf intervention podcast. We're excited. You're tuning in with us tonight. We have a very special guest, Dr. Mike Kaye, I know Robbie and I've been talking about this for a while. And so why don't you tell the listener a little bit about yourself, who you are, what you do. we're going to turn this episode into a Q and A. We've been collecting questions from our listeners, and I think it's going to be an awesome and insightful, episode tonight. And we're excited to learn from you. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself Yeah. Uh, happy to be on. Thanks for having me on guys. It's, uh, always. Great to talk to Robbie and Eric first time meeting, but I'm looking forward to chatting. So, um, yeah, I'm so I'm a PT by, uh, by trade. That's what I guess the initials after my, after my name, but, um, I work in work out of Scottsdale, Arizona, but travel back and forth with my partners out in California with Helix Golf with Tony Greco and Chris Walkie, um, for food like Helix Golf. But I guess that's kind of like what I do is, um, I'm biomechanics, PT, sports performance. Uh, I guess I can fill a lot of roles depending on what is needed. Um, or what's like, who's in front of me. Like today I was in the clinic all day. And it was, uh, a couple of pitchers. I mean, I've been kind of crazy busy with, um, off season baseball stuff and they're winding up winding close to getting to reporting. So that's, that's kind of been my main focus. But like my day to day was, uh, Chronic jaw pain, regular person, chronic headaches, regular person. And then, you know, guy that's got a, that's got a pitching trial for the Yankees and then a couple other baseball, baseball, baseball. Yeah. So I guess the day in the life, I get the, I get the, uh, and I, I say this like affectionately weirdo headache stuff and I get, uh, baseball, golf, rotational sports, and, um, so you can kind of, you know, I could one day I can be on a drive range. Or a pitching mat next to a pitching mound or the next day in a clinic all day. So I just kind of can fill those roles. So it's kind of in a nutshell who I am. Super cool. Yeah. Well, so, um, I think for, for this again, my background, I, I think we met, was it now three years ago? Cause it was at least three because, uh, we're at Mark races place for a little bit, but, um, that day I remember cause it was at Mark races, it was the most like Mind blowing four to five hours that I've ever spent because the, the interventions were all very, very unique to what I was accustomed to at the time. Um, they didn't necessarily look like golf swings always. Right. And so they were very sort of specific and targeted. And that was the main thing that I was really curious about when leaving. I was like, man, he's Um, every individual is getting something tailored to their specific structure and who they are, right? So in the context of golf intervention, we're going to, we're going to bring you some things that are really just going to get you thinking. It's not our goal for you to leave this episode, having four or five, six things that you're going to take out right away. Cause that's not, that's not the purpose of this podcast today. Um, our podcast is to get, uh, coaches. Um, and you the player perhaps looking in a little different place. So going back to the last two episodes that we've done, um, probably by the time this comes out, you'll have already listened to the one that we just did on just the context of when we address swing, right? So it's, it's probably for a lot of golfers pretty far down the line, but I would say it's a, it's an intervention that across all skill levels is just going to stack the deck in your favor. And that's what I love about what you do doc is. It's, it's giving each golfer their best chance of those skills lining up, right? So as we kind of get into these questions here, the first one that I want to talk about is those individual structures. So when you look at a person, when you got somebody coming to you for the first time, What are some of the things that you're assessing? What do we need to be aware of as humans? And just, okay, well, why don't, why do I not swing like my buddy, right? So like, what are, what are the differences that we need to be aware of? And maybe some of the constraints that we need to, uh, to keep in mind. Yeah. So I guess, um, I guess like full disclosure, my, I mean, I'm obviously I am my mentor, Bill Hartman, um, who's out in Indianapolis, you know, created a model where we can. Sort of bucket people being either a wide or a narrow and then there's a lot of intricacies that go into it. Um, we don't need to dive super deep into it, but basically it's just, it's just, it's, and it, to me, it's like, this makes complete sense. It's just your shape and, uh, who you are as a, like a, how you are, how you push in the ground and your structure is going to determine, um, the access to space that you can move in, right? Um, So that being said, it's like, you know, you take a look at someone and you say, you know, I guess if, so if you take the spectrum of like, um, John Rahm versus Justin Thomas, right? Two very different looking human beings, but, uh, two pretty effective, pretty efficient golfers, right? So, but they're both going to move the club differently. They're going to produce force differently, two human beings, but two very different animals. Um. So like, I mean, it, it golf's interesting in the way that like, that's a pretty far spectrum between one shape of one individual and the shape of another individual versus like, if you walked into like an Olympic, uh, swimming, like you went to go watch an Olympic swimming event pretty much when they put their caps on, he's like, shit, I don't know any difference. Same thing, kind of, maybe there's some differentials sometimes in the a hundred meter, but like, like, so golf is such a game that where you can. Spam the spectrum of shape and space shape of individual where, you know, you'd necessarily wouldn't see that if you're walking through like the Olympic village, you're like gymnast, pole vaulters, whatever, like on a football field, right? You, the offensive lineman, defensive lineman, you know who they are, the wide receivers. Yeah, you couldn't accidentally think that slot receivers and offensive linemen. Otherwise, maybe it's like eight man football or something. Yeah, some of that. Yeah, for sure. So when it comes to the wide versus narrow, can we talk a little bit more? Cause I've had, I've had questions about like, if you're a Husky or golfer, like it has nothing to do with that. Right. It's just more like the skeleton itself. So like, can you talk a little, just really briefly about. What we're looking at when it comes to wide versus narrow. Yeah, it's essentially like the structure of their, um, you can, like, it's, it's, it's easier to measure it off of their, off of their rib cage. So like they're more of their, their, their lower rib cage. You can get an idea of, of what their, what their shape is. It's usually, you know, if I, if I have a, if I have a wider rib cage person, I'm going to be biased more toward that wide rib cage position. That's going to be biased more towards like a, an inhaled look. But the spine underneath, it's going to be more biased to an exhaled representation. So it's like you get these two compensation things happening off of one another. So you get a guy who's wider, uh, tends to be a better force producer, right? And able to, they are going to push force in the ground for a longer period of time, more, like a greater amount than someone say that looks like, looks like me, or it looks like Justin Thomas, or looks like a marathon runner. Those guys are going to have greater access to the ability to what we would consider probably turn than a wider individual, right? So, um, and that's just the, the determination of their structural shape. So someone who, again, who's like maybe a little narrower or narrower is going to have a greater ability to access like external rotation. So maybe space away from midline up away from the ground. So that'd be more like an inhalation bias versus someone who is wide, who has, that's the challenge. It has like an inhale looking. Uh, lower ribcage, but actually out of the actuality, they're exhaled, right? So they're gonna have a greater ability to create IR or force more down towards the midline. Uh, and so they won't turn as well. So, like, and maybe simpler way to think about it, you get a denser individual versus someone who's less dense. Yeah. Right. Would it be, would it be easy to say like, okay, if like you're a full wide versus a narrow, if you were to place your bets on who'd be better at a vertical jump? Yeah, I mean, you'd see different types of representations because you get all things being equal, both could create the same impulse. Um, so, you know, because there's, there's, there's a very Certain time constraint with a vertical jump right where so the narrow might not create the same amount of ground contact time But get the same have the same 32 inch vertical jump where the wide could still have a 32 inch vertical jump But they're gonna be on they're gonna create they're probably gonna be on the ground for a longer period of time longer Until it becomes right they hit the time constraint and they can't They can't, and now they lose the energy production, you know, the stretch shortening cycle or lose the, really, it's the position of the guts. That's, that's driving that sort of thing. So it's kind of an impulse thing. Yeah. And then how, like, is it kind of what you're born with? Like, how really can you see that? Like, can you see that in kids? Like, if a kid's like 10 years old, like, how well can you see, oh, that kid's gonna be, like, that kid's a wider. Yeah, you are what you are. Like, there's some people out there who are kind of not. They're just not educated on the model, and they start spouting off about it, but they still say something like, this Y turned into a narrow, and that's just never what happens. You just can't, you can't, you can't outrun your, your DNA, right? How you literally like, how your cells spread in the embryo, right? So it's, that's just how it works. Um, you, a narrow can compress themselves to such a degree that when you put their hands on them, they look wide. But essentially, this is a bet ribcage. You're not, you're not taking into account the terms when we look at something, we try to look at something with, put your hands on someone, think people think about like it being like a flat representation. They're not understanding the actual, the turn that's going through the ribcage to get that, to get that certain presentation, right? Um, you know, so it's, I mean, I've got two little girls. My older one is like, uh, like right away, this is a, this, she's a wide funnel, like, like pushing the ground. She's, you know, yeah. She's a force producing monster and then I've got a, like a narrow kind of dancery kind of can't stay on the ground. She's just floating up out. She's floating everywhere. Right. So it's like you see it. Right. And there's, it's a spectrum too. Right. So you get, you don't like, you know, uh, what I tend not to see in clinic and, or probably with, you know, like if someone throws 98, 99 miles an hour, They're usually not very average, so you don't really see this sort of like average representation of a ribcage. Right. You see maybe some extremely narrow with some, like, limb things and then a big twist through the ribcage. Or you get this wide person who's got a, you know, crazy twist and they can pruse force, right? So it's, um, you know, average people don't throw 98. Jump 40 inches, right? Run subs, 10 seconds, hundreds. But that's the cool thing about golf is very average people can have 175 mile an hour ball speed because I'm not reliant on, because I got an implement that actually is going to be my connective tissue for me. Right? Yeah. We're definitely going to get into that. So kind of as we, as we take our time through this, I just want to make sure that that image of wide versus narrow, everyone's really As clear as possible on that. All right, Eric, did you have any questions? I was just curious about the interaction with the student and the instructor and you, Doc, like when you're working at the, you know, with, with golfers, are you assessing them and telling them, I think you're a wide, I think you're a narrow, like, how does that, how does that work and how does the communication work with your team on that? Yeah, I mean, between Chris and Tony and I, um, or if I'm consulting with like, like Robbie or some other golf coach, I will, you know, that's, that communication would be there with the player. It's more like, Hey, you know, it's more, you know, you know, you're, you're doing X and we think you would be better off if you, if we pushed you in this direction. Right. Right. And, and it's more likely to, it's like, Rob, you've seen me work. It's not necessarily like even speaking much to them in general. It's like, here's a kettlebell. Can you do this for me? Right? And all I want you to do is, all I want you to do is feel like, let's say, all I want you to do is feel the inside part of your right heel when you're doing this. Um, and then it's a simple cue and a takeaway. But, you know, but the, I look at the person and say, this guy's got, this guy is a, on the wide side, right? On the wide spectrum. You look at their face structure. Yeah, like the jaw maybe, like the width of the jaw can jaw, yeah, with the jaw you can do certain things where you have them do a toe touch or have them cross their arms across their chest and you can kind of see sometimes where their, where their rib cage is. Um, and a lot of times people like, again, it's, it's not necessarily like you have to, like a very wide person is very obvious, a very narrow person is very obvious. Everyone else in the middle, it's like, alright, I'm just going to have to play around with it a little bit and see how much. access to, let's say, internal rotation they might have. Um, so by, you know, like, how much heel can I expect them? How much, like, how much access to the depth of the backside of their heel? Can I actually expect them to have? And it's just this trial by error, safe to fail experiment, right? I think that's the interaction with the player of the coach. It's like putting times like Coach, PT, whatever, anyone who interacts with a human being, we expect to be able to just give something and walk away and be like, no, it's your problem. And that's just not the way it works. Right. Right. Yeah. Complexity. So it's not. Yeah. I was, I was curious about the, about the communication. Cause I always, I always feel it's tricky to, to put someone in a box and say like, Hey, you're this and you should do that. And I, I try to stay away from that personally. Right. Like I think there's some other, teaching methodology that sort of puts people in boxes and says, you should do this. It's your thing. And I think that belief system can be hindering to a student at time. It can, it can be, um, limiting I think. Um, and so I was just curious how y'all can, it sounds like you don't communicate that way, which is awesome by the way. Yeah, no, I mean, I completely agree. I think that's the problem with a lot of, whether it be, I don't know, whatever assessment you're doing, I don't care. Like you can do. You know, some days I'll just be like, I'm just gonna look at toe touches today and say, because you could tell kind of where this person's center of gravity is or, you know, standing rotation versus, you know, we could talk about all that stuff if you guys are interested. But yeah, but it's not, it's, it's, um, yeah, we're, we're trying to figure out, um, it's not like, it's like examples like for like shoes, right? You know, X, X company spends millions of billions of R and D in shoes and they'll take a, basically they'll take an implant of someone's foot and they'll say, all right, and then they'll find their, the shape of their foot, right? And then they'll just make a, they'll make a shoe that just relates to the shape of that foot. Like they're just matching where his foot is in space. They don't take into account that it's like, do we really want his foot there all the time or do we need to start moving? It's like, just because, just because I, I rotate to the right really well. and what is well, and I can't rotate to the left. That doesn't mean that now, like, that doesn't mean that like, okay, that I need to be certain X type of Turner. You're just seeing them where they are at a time and place. So then if you continue to teach them and coach them into this perspective, now you've got this ball rolling downhill. So you don't really have like a true sense of ability to like, see the whole picture. You're just coaching. And there is something about coaching them where they're at, but you need to understand like, all right, what's. Where do I need to go? When is this gonna, where's, where's, what's, what's the future look like here? That's awesome, so Kind of moving on to kind of our next question. I Think I think that gives everyone a really good kind of foundation of like okay like wides versus narrows and in understanding that It is your skill. It is your, like Dr. K said, it is your DNA, like you're not getting around that, right? I think that's a huge constraint that we need to, to, to kind of consider. Right, and we don't, and we don't really know how adaptable you are until you try certain things, right? So some people can, right? Some people can be relatively, can access different space that someone else can, right? And you can have a Y that can fool you and it can access certain spaces and, um, they might. Like, that's what they, what someone says, like that wide swings, like a narrow, that's not a thing. It's just, that's the wide accessing his space where he has like he's using. So we're just not looking at the whole system and how they're bending, twisting, getting into that particular shape. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about, and so this is something that we, we talk about a lot on, on our podcasts is the importance of rhythm. Right. So it's one of the things that across all shots, across all skill levels, it's one of the things that's just going to, like I said before, is going to stack the deck in your favor as best as possible. So do you see rhythm differences between wides and narrows? And then I want us to, to really get into what understanding what good rhythm is. Maybe a good, a good place to start is what is good rhythm to you? What are the differences that you see when it comes to wides versus narrows? And then we can get a little bit into like, uh, queuing it, fostering it, kind of things that you like to see, um, to get someone to, uh, swing with a little better rhythm. Um, I guess I would ask, like, how do you guys define rhythm before, like, how have you defined it in the past? So in the past, right? It was very before learning from you. Um, it was very much more like this holistic, like very non tangible, like, Oh, does it look like they're, um, Does it look like they're exerting themselves a lot or does it just look easy? Right. And before learning from you, I never really had a tangible way to get someone closer to that. It was more just like this very generic, like, Oh, just relax. Just like, you know, like it wasn't anything really substance behind it. Whereas now I understand like, Hey, there's a phase of the backswing where we're creating energy. We need to capture that energy and then we need to yield to that energy. So like that sort of like sequence of like creating energy, capturing, yielding, um, is kind of what I look at now is like how, what's a, what's a golfer's ability to capture what they create and then how well are they yielding to that? And this is what I'm really excited to have, uh, Dr. Prior. If you haven't listened to the Dr. Pryor podcast, please go back and do so it's, it's game changing, but a lot of his stuff I think is so good at the, at creating the environment for yielding. Um, and so for me now it's, it's. Less about just like the, the overall time. Although I think time is a really good cue. Like you could have someone say, all right, like is the general time of backswing roughly matching the general time of the entire downswing and fall through? And if they are, it's probably a good tell, but it's not looking underneath the hood enough. So, um, I don't know, you know, if you can expand on that in, in, in terms of, um, you know, what good rhythm is to you. Differences that you see between wides and narrows and then kind of ways that you like to cue it. Yeah, I think, um, so, Like rhythm, like, you know, rhythm is one of those things where It's, you dive into it and there's a lot of, there's obviously a lot of, I guess, complexity with it. Um, but, we should be able to like, what Dr. Prior does and what, what I do and what we do is We should have, we should see some commonalities between the two, like there should be Simple rules that kind of would work and I guess foster principles in both fields, right? So the way I would look at it probably is like, is access to like relative, access to relative motion. So could I move, can I move one segment of my body relative to another? And I'm not even just necessarily talking like, you know, I don't know, wrist to elbow to shoulder. And we're talking in between like segments of bone. Can things move relative to one another? Um, Because if I have access to relative motion, I have access to sensation. If I have access to sensation, then I have access to time and space and where I'm at. Um, which is going to foster probably a better rhythmic relationship with myself and this thing that's way off, way from me that I can't see. Um, and I need to feel, right? So the, I guess the analogy too would be if I, if I put a quarter in your hand, right? And I just told you just to squeeze the hell out of it. You wouldn't, you couldn't tell me what's in your hand. I'm not talking about like how much you should grip the club because I know people get upset about grip pressure, those sort of things, I don't care. Grip it tight enough, please. Don't hit me with a golf club, please. But it's, it's like, these are these access to relative motion, right? So like, if I can, that's going to give me the sensation of where I am in space, right? If there are points in time, right? So as I'm Speed and getting back into like downswing sort of stuff where there's points in time where there's going to, or at the top of my swing, probably even way before that where there is no more relative motion in your golf swing until we unwind to untwist again. But Like, like the other analogy, analogy I use all the time is like, I want line in the reel prior to hitting those moments in time where there are no relative, there's no more relative motion of'cause. Then I get, I get the appropriate twisting, parascoping, lengthening of the connective tissue to allow the golf club to travel in a more effective manner. So then it's like that to me, like that's rhythm, right? Then it becomes, you know. That because you do that over and over again. You guys basically guys and girls basically start to learn like this is how I step on this thing. This is how I can control this thing. This is how I can, you know, can pull the face, let go of the toe, whatever I need to do, depending on it. But all of those are going to be anything related impact downwards is going to be related to me being creating the balance and the sensation of the control Prior. Um, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. So, like, related to the difference between your shape and your rhythm, like, like, you're, like, you're probably going to, you're going to see narrows that have more access to, like, ER. So, you know, like, and Um, hand paths that are a little higher to steeper, right? And then why they're going to be a little more, they're on their, if you're on their helical angle more, right, they're going to be, they're going to have a hand path that's a little flatter, not as vertical and relative to something else to their, to their shape. Um, so they're going to be, it's, you know, so the timing differential that are, is going to be, is going to be different, um, yeah. So from a, from a geometry perspective, that makes a lot of sense. What about from? More of like the time element because one of your one of the best analogies that you use is of a half pipe, right? So, um, can you talk about that half pipe and then is the half pipe a little different for wides versus narrows in terms of how much time you have to really create that energy into the club before you then capture and yield to it? Yeah, for sure. So like, um, if you think about, if you think about the structure of a, like a narrow, they're all things being equal, they're going to tend to have Greater verticality. Uh, if everyone knows what a half pipe is, right? Like a skateboard half pipe or they're going to tend to have the greater verticality of the walls of their, of their structure. And that kind of goes along with the shape of their pelvis too. Um, and there's idiosyncratic differences in each narrow and each wide, um, and I can create bends and twists through this thing too, right? So like you get all sorts of things, but like in all things being equal, if I've got this narrow with like this vertical pelvis and then the bottom part of their pelvis is called like their outlet. So like the backside of their pelvis where their sacrum is, is going to be smaller. Um, and, and steeper and the, the differential is going to be less there. So as, as if you picture yourself as a little skateboarder man in there, as you come down, it's like, I'm going to have to basically, I have to, uh, ride the wall down and I have to push and kick back up out of this thing pretty quickly relative to the shape of my outlet or the bottom part of my pelvis. Um, versus a wide who might not necessarily have the verticality of the, of the, of the walls on the, of their, like their ilium or their denominates, but they might have a greater bottom part. Like, so they've got more depth in the backside or the bottom side of their pelvis. Right. So then they're going to have a greater ability to basically hold that IR longer. Um, so they're going to be, you know, less of, I don't know if like if I would call them. double limb jumpers versus single leg jumpers for the narrows versus wides. But like, they're going to have a tendency to, they're going to tend to have a tendency to maybe hold the ground a little longer. Whereas a wide, in order for them to create their turn, they're going to probably going to use a little more vertical, uh, vertical ground force, ground reaction force to get out of the way. Yeah. So if you've got a narrow and you see them way up on the, on, especially the trail foot, like way up on the toes of that foot. And you're like, Oh wait, no, I'm, I believe that that's not okay. You can't play like that. I'm just going to try to nail your feet to the floor. If you've done that with a narrow, um, probably not a great idea. Yeah, it's, it's a pet, right? So like, that's the, you think about like, how does the narrow eventually kill himself is that they lose, they lose their ability to hold on to IR for a little bit longer. And then that heel breaks the ground really quickly. And then they go toey. Right. So then the. They, what they end up doing, like I imagine if you think of your, like, pick a golf, pick a narrow, I think we all think of a narrow who's got, loses his heel really early in transition, um, and he may have had disc issues or like whatever, because they would have disc issues, that type of stuff, um, you're going to have to create a yield somewhere, you're going to have to slow down somewhere, so i. e. disc, okay. First med head, my neck, right? Those are all these things that's going to keep me from getting pitched off the front of this half pipe in order to create this turn to come back around. So it is their superpower, but it's the thing that you want to make sure that doesn't, like, like using, stealing a Bill Hartman line, it doesn't, hopefully doesn't kill them, right? Yeah. Mm hmm. Versus a wife, right? Yeah. Who gets kicks early, right? Or, or gets buried and continues to use this kind of, Like, I don't know, David Duvalie, right side bendy holds, uh, you know, like, like that, that's going to have, that's going to, that's going to end up bending stuff that you're not going to want to bend that you can't unbend over a period of time. Yeah. Awesome. Well, speaking of unbending, can you talk about the importance of breath when you use it, how you use it? Um, and then how can we use breath to our advantage? I like that you use it as an unbending thing. That's cool. That's a good segway. Yeah, I mean, that's like your, it's, that's how you change the internal dynamics, right? So if I need to increase my density, I exhale and I squeeze, right? If I need to decrease my density, I inhale and I create more space, right? So that's like, that's how we, that's how we internally shape change. Um, and, and that's how, like, let's say I was working on someone's, I don't know, like someone's pack and I'm trying to get more expansion in the upper part of their ribcage. I'm going to use techniques that doesn't twist and bend them. I'm going to use techniques that creates the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest bit of stretch and then let them use their breath to untwist them. Right? Because that's, that's what's essentially going to happen. Like. We'll hear from a lot of models that a breath is like, you know, it's a pump handle. It's a bucket handle. And those are terrible representations of what's actually happening. These are three dimensional untwisting. When I take an inhale, I'm going into inhale and I exhale. It's like this. I'm getting these three D. I'm getting multiple planes of motion. You know? Yeah. All at once. Right. So if I can, if I can get someone to use their breath, uh, as a, as a way to sort of create, uh, a focal untwist of something or to create an expansive, or to create more external rotation or to slow things down, right. And probably DR stuff, right? It's like that's how you, that's how you create more external rotation space. That's how you create more time. You want to slow, you want to, yeah, slow things down really quickly, make time stop, right, or make things really speed up, I'm sorry, is like, then you make things very dense, uh, eventually, but yeah, it's kind of tricky. In breath, as far as I'm aware of, is it can be a very technical thing. It can be something that's, uh, not a given, even though we're always breathing, a lot of times we're unaware of it. Um, it gets us into some bad habits. So what are some of the things that you've seen, like absolutely do not try to breathe like this? And then some things that you, that, uh, that you would maybe recommend we think about when trying to breathe a bit better? Yeah. I mean, I think like, like for someone, you know, that comes in to see me, like I'll put them in like an advantageous position to take a breath and that might be. On their back, you know, three quarter position on their side. It depends on where they're at. Um, you know, I think like not to get like a whole load of, you know, stuff is but like belly breathing is usually pretty, pretty poor idea. Um, yeah. So when you belly breathe, all you're doing is basically creating like a Expansion out in front of you and it squeezes the top part of your ribcage downwards. Yeah, you can feel it. It's like, it just, it's like you get compressed like right around here, your belly goes out and then like everything else up top just gets squeezed. It doesn't feel good. Yeah, you don't want to, you don't want to spill your guts over the front of your, over the pelvic rim. If I spill the guts out of the pelvic rim, I, I am going down and forward with that stuff. Where the point is, is to, is that when I take an inhale, my lungs to drop my, my, uh, diaphragm to move and to push straight down to the pelvis to create like a, a pelvis that can actually receive those, receive the guts, right? Which allows space to build up to the upper rib cage. You know, so when I'm standing and talking in normal breathing, when I take a breath in, the air is going to bias to fill to the bottom part of my rib cage. You know, you do that over and over again, a lot of us then I get end up getting compressed. We don't, we have a hard time getting the air out of the bottom part of our rib cages and getting it to expand in the upper part. So like putting you on your back or on your side or in a slightly inverted position can bias more of an upper rib cage expansive position. Um, so like there's, I mean, you know, you can put your hands kind of in the soft spot underneath your ribs in here and take an inhale. If you're sitting and you can feel, you should feel like you get this 3d circumferential expansion. If you get the 3d circumferential expansion, that should hopefully translate to the upper part, upper chest, upper back. So it stands you up. Cause that's, that's essentially what air does. It keeps you stand you up, right? If I can't get air to the top of my rib cage, I start getting pulled down, down, down, down, down. And now I can't get up off the ground again, which has implications on the half pipe, right? So like if you have, if you have, uh, a very, I'd say, uh, sub, suboptimal breathing strategy. I would imagine that the bottom of your half pipe is just going to get squeezed and squeezed and squeezed to where now you don't have any time to apply force to the club with relative motion. And just to make sure that the listener is clear on relative motion, right? So, um, a good tell would be early backswing. If you can look at the feet, um, essentially the, the, the heel and the base of your big toe. If you feel, if you see those points of contact, basically leave the ground right early on in the backswing, then you're not using relative motion, right? You're basically changing orientation space. So what we're talking about is this first part of the backswing, right? From, from really before the club starts moving. To about, what do you would say about like shaft just past parallel, like that first parallel position in the backswing essentially. Right. That's kind of our window that we're talking about to really put some energy, some force in this club. And we want to do that without losing relative motion without taking our whole body and just like changing orientation in space. We want to have access to that. So if you're not breathing well, Right. You're going to limit your ability to hold those relative motions while the club is, is being given energy back. Am I, is that fair? Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, like your ability to take a full inhale and full exhale is going to be representative of me being able to move my body effectively through space. They're just, they're, they're representations of, of, uh, of full body. What we should access to in full motion. Yeah. So do you have any, so what do you see issues in that first part? So like from set up to again, club handle, maybe just outside your base of support, a bit like the trail thigh, like what are some ways people get it going in a way that allows them to really capture that effectively versus not? Like what are some, some common things that you see in that early phase that we could start to be aware of? And just again, not getting to like, again, wise and errors are going to do it differently. You're just talking about like, yeah. Common themes that you tend to see, uh, more often than not, if any, and again, if there's not, then I would, I would believe that totally. Yeah, no, no, I think, I mean, I, I think, like, especially that early, the early, before the club has even started to move, um, you, I see too many people that can't unweight their right side prior to moving, right? So it's like they, and whether, whatever it is, you know. 55 45 left versus right. But the ability to unweight my right side, what that does is it then allows me to move into my right side. Sounds kind of silly, but it's, you know, but it's biomechanically really, like, really effective because when I unweighted a little bit, it allows me to kind of essentially like drop my, my guts down to the right for my right. It gets the connective tissue beginning of this kickstart of this golf club. Um, so like, yeah. Getting people to understand that sort of that, that unweight, that sort of, you know, tuning mechanism prior to taking the club away is, is a big deal because everyone's so static and afraid to move around before they hit a shot, but like you look at any other great, any great ball striker and it doesn't matter if it's golf, baseball, whatever, as they are, they are fidgety, they're moving around before they hit the shot because they're trying to get, whether they know it or not, they're trying to set the right internal pressure in their systems before they start taking the club away. Um, so that's a big one, but you need access to range of motions and space in order for that to be able to do that, right? That's like you get someone on the table and they've got, you know, Um, no access to any relevant motion, then they're like, they're, they're like Plyo step. They're getting the club moving away is like everything moving all at once. Yes. So they might unweight, right? But it looks like you're like, that doesn't look good. You know? No. And then they say, well, I can't like, it just becomes like, well, guys shouldn't unweight before they take the club away. But it's, it's because he doesn't have access to the differential and relevant motion early part of the takeaway. So you just have someone who's. either set up from a posture position that's way too forward. Um, so there's no else for him to go. Um, but like, that's, that is gonna, basically it's like the, it's the domino that if you get someone to do that well, that everything else becomes what they typically say is so much easier. They're like, they're like, wow, you'd show them on video. Like, wow, Alex, wait, I'm not diving down the ball two clicks off of it. And you know, and, and like perceived effort goes is significantly less, right? So, you know, like there's plenty of models or golfers right now talking about like tension is your friend, tension and squeeze and tension is your friend. And I'm not disagreeing. It doesn't, it works for, it doesn't work. It doesn't, doesn't work. But you know, that strategy is going to dry you out. It's going to cause a problem for time. Right. Um, So, like, that's just the kickstart of the domino. Like, it literally, like, it's like how you throw the yo yo down into your right foot. If you got a yo yo, you just try to throw it down into the right foot. Like, if I have to, I have to become a little bit unstable, and then be okay with it, and then catch it. And that's what gets the club going. And there you go. Again, that goes back to Dr. Pryor, because so many people aren't willing to give up some control. Right? Like a little bit of out of balance, right? They said, okay, this thing has got to work out for me or else. Yeah. Right. And, and that little sense of being okay and, and letting the outcome play out and, and being willing to see how it plays out without a guarantee is so huge. It takes, cause I'm a big believer that the tension starts in the brain. Like if like a concentric muscle activity starts. In the brain, right? It's, it's the golfer squeezing down on this club and saying, okay, I'm going to exert my will on this golf shot. This golf club ball is going to go here because I'm not willing to accept the outcomes when it doesn't. And so I think that's where, you know, the, what you are doing and it's, it's so cool. How have you ever met Dr. Raymond? But it's so cool how like you guys are going at complete opposite ends of the spectrum, but you're doing the same thing. It's like totally, it's totally coherent. Like it's 100 percent coherent. And that's what I love about it because totally, like when you get people apply a stepping for the first time, when you get them breathing, when you get them and we can be, Oh my gosh, we could talk about grip, like putting your hands on a club, that could be an entire podcast. But like when you give them some space, when you allow them to apply a step, A lot of times they're like, Oh, I, I feel like I have no idea where the ball, like, where, like, I feel like I would never do this on the golf course because it feels completely out of control. But then you look at the club head speed and it's jumped about five or six miles per hour. And the strike dispersion is even tighter. You know, like, well, what is it that you're really trying to control? Cause the, like the old adage of like, Hey, you got to give up control to gain control. Like there's a little bit of truth to that. I feel like for sure. I mean, that's like, that's my least favorite, my least favorite word in the. In the, uh, like P. T., strength and conditioning world is stability. It's, uh, talk, if we could just get rid of that piece of jargon, word. It's, it's a useless word, right? Because it's just, it, it doesn't, it doesn't, it's a lack of understanding of that. I literally, for me to put my left foot out in front of me, I have to be incredibly unstable to get there. I have to give up control to get there over and over again. Yes. Knowing that I'm going to land and create a moment of stability. And then we continue to move through space again, but it's like it's like these moments of impulse of force of but having to like, you know, let go as I as I walk through space, you know, like A lot of people I see, especially with chronic headache, neck, jaw stuff, like they've been given chin tucks and glute bridges for like 10, for five years and they're, and they walk and they walk everywhere and they squeeze themselves to death as they walk. Right. So they're, they, their locus of control is like, they have to, they have. Zero. They have, they try to control everything. They have no control at the same time. Right? So, yeah, the more they're trying to control it, the less, yeah, the worst they feel. Right. So it's like the harder it goes wrong. Do you think we, do you think at some point we coach that out of people in golf? Like if you go back to the old timey swings and look at them, like they, they've got lots of, uh, lots of action pre swing, like go back and look at Jack Nicholas in the 1950s and look at Bobby Jones. Look at all these guys with how they moved and turned. And then all of a sudden it was kind of like, I think we went through a period of time, like, I've been teaching golf a long time, so like, we went through a period of time where, I don't know, if we tried to turn everybody into a computer model or something, like, there was this like, you know, mechanical overdoing of the 2D analysis or something, and then all of a sudden we lost like that athletic motion that we used to see back in the day. Like when you watched the forward presses and the leaning left right before they drew like all the foot action kind of felt like it went away for a long time. And now it's, now it seems to be coming back. So like it seems like it's come a full circle, but I don't know if you had any theories about how maybe golf instruction maybe had coached that out of people for a little bit of a time, turning them all into robots or something. Yeah, I think it's, um, Um, you know, like the old, like, be still old adage, right? Like, I mean, um, you know, I, I think for sure, I think it, I, like you look at long drive guys, right? That's where it kind of became back in vogue. Long drive became popular again. People were doing their, their rock steps and they're like, wow, hitting it further cause they're doing it. You know, like golf tries to consider itself such an insular thing, but then you look at, I mean. Before any, like a high jumper before a high jumper takes off, they're rocking and they're moving, you know, like all these sort of things. Um, so yeah, it like we tend to think of this thing as different than everything else. And then, you know, then, and then that becomes issues. It's not different than anything else. It's just the context of what we're doing is different, right? Um, yeah, I, I, I agree. I think like, like the athleticism, um, yeah. At some point in time kind of was I don't know removed or discouraged, right? Yeah. Um, you know, and then you know, he you just you kind of add on the the components of like like, you know, like the force like I mean I don't know like you think like what Bobby Jones or some of the older guys are doing, right? There maybe wasn't a premium on Hitting the ball like a mile right at all cost of everything else, right? Um, so, uh, the, the, maybe the relative force with what they were swinging, it allowed them to feel and be a little freer, uh, in relationship to maybe when we coached some of that stuff out of guys. I mean, now it seems to be coming back in vogue, um, you know, but there's so many pockets and corners of, you know, of, of styles and methods, so, yeah, sure. Cool. All right. So working our way up. So we went from before the club starts moving. Now the club's moving right and it's moving for a second and a half to two seconds. It's all done. Right. So, um, can you talk about really, what do you, what are you referring to when you say capture and then what is yielding? Right. Cause really this is the basis of rhythm, uh, that, that we, that we like to coach. So. Um, what's a capture? What's a yield, right? It would be a good kind of intro to that. Yeah, so if you think about like the example of unweighting and then sort of like weighting or pushing into the ground again, like I would consider that to be like a capture. Like I'm capturing, I'm capturing the force now. So when I pushed into the ground, then the, the energy or the predominance of the force is coming from the ground up as I get going here, right? If I got that nice, like maybe yo yo y, connective tissue y, yielded, Kind of feel. Then when I push in the ground, it's like the yo yo, the rubber band. I don't care what version of elasticity you want to talk about. It gets, it gets accelerated and then pushed up. Right? So I don't have to squeeze and pull it to the top. I'm now, now I've got, I've got, I've got physics, I've got Newton, I've got ground reaction forces on my side. Right? Um, Different types of shapes and sizes, narrows and wides, like I'm expected to see a greater differential between the, the unweighting to the weighting, maybe in a narrow versus a wide, you know, just because of the shape of the wall that they've got to get up. Going up through versus, you know, someone who's wide. And then you have to think about to the relative position, like a wide, like a wide, they're, they're already like, they've got like an internally rotated bias pelvis that the moment they push in the ground, they're getting things. They're going to get, they're going to get ground reaction forces right away versus a narrow might take them a little more time to move through this very like ER biased pelvis to an IR biased pelvis to get things moving up. So these are the kind of small differentials in time that you would see. So the capture is this thing getting popped and caught. And now it's now I get a, I get a position of, of, of my, my pelvic outlet and like my, like my insides, my guts up. So they're in a, like they're in an advantage position now. So now that they are essentially almost like floating for a little bit. So as I begin to then superimpose like a, a turn on that, this turn now becomes a much easier turn. I'm going to now start moving into like this, like I'm, I'm in a, like a biased of like a yielding representation. I'm turning back to my right side. So guts are up and I'm twisting and now pulling them up to the top. You know, like depending on like your shape, like you'll see guys that will like literally start like. Unweighting at left arm parallel, right? So the guts get up. I've rolled them up and now I can actually start to unweight a little bit as as I go. It's important to know, it's like my, this is my, again, like the time again where I have to be okay with letting my, the gut, club travels, my guts are still going up, but my body essentially is moving away from them, so it's like this is another moment of like, letting go, right? It's like the top of the roller coaster. Giving up. Let it go. I don't want to ride, or I twist and roll with this thing forever, right? And it's now I roll off my right foot, and now I've got to do all of, I've got to do, which you guys seen, I'm sure, on Gears all the time, it's like, the amount of work that a, that a, even like a Two or three great club player does in relationship to a touring pro. The amount they're trying to undo at the top of their swing versus what like a touring pro is doing. It's not even close. There's not, there's not enough time to undo what a typical, even a single digit is doing versus a touring pro. Right. Right. The, the analogy that you've given me that, that's been really, really helpful is the understanding that the club becomes the leading resistance. Yeah. Right. So you move the club and then. It's like, um, I'm just trying to think of like a good analogy. Like you, you're pushing a kid on a swing set. Right? The, like, you've, you've pushed them. The child's moving towards you. There's, there's gotta be that time of where you're gathering and capturing that child moving towards you and what, and you're kind of yielding to that child. If you're too stiff, right? If you, if you block that, the chain's going to get all like wonky. It's not going to be a fun experience for that child, but if you yield to it, right. And if you allow that momentum to then move you. That's a much different scenario. Right? So it's literally, and, and we've talked about this, I think with, uh, Mike McLaughlin, uh, two years ago. It's like, if things are set up in that first part, like literally you can basically just go like lights off, like not have to try to do quote unquote anything. Once that club kind of picks up momentum, right? That's like ideal, like pie in the sky. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's like, we all make swings where it's like, wow, that club felt really balanced. I knew exactly where that face was the entire time. Um, and the reason you know where that faces the entire time is because you're, because things are on in balance, right? It's like, I've got the appropriate amount of yielding so that I'm getting feedback from where this thing is that the whole time, um, and then I can tug on it and I can tune it, right? Because that's what we see. It's like, it's not like these guys are doing the same thing over and over again. They have enough noise that they can deal with this noise that they can tune this thing as it comes down. It's a, it's a, it's a privilege to be able to tune. You're talking about functional variability, Dr. K. Come on. Functional variability. I like that. I love it. No, that's literally what it is. Like, cause they're so skilled. Like they've, they're aware of the club. Like they know where that club is. It is a privilege to get to do that. Right. So we think like, but you want to take someone's ability to tune then. twist them like a pretzel, right? Dry them out. Like that's the, like, you know, like we could, like, it's the, like, people start talking about like fascial lines and like, to me, it's inconsequential. It's like fascia covers everything from, you know, your toe to your liver, right? I can draw any fascial line with all due respect to anywhere I want. It just, it doesn't matter. But fashion is a sensory suit. So if I twist myself over and over again, lose my foot contacts, have to bend my helical angle in an event like a way to get the club in a certain position, that stuff dries out. When that stuff dries out, then I lose my capability for sensing where this thing is. Then I lose my capability for tuning. I lose my capability for tuning and I'm a frigging robot. Yeah. Skills out the window. You're gone. Right. So, right. So like, you know, yeah, it's. It's talked to great players when they're on a roll. It's like, man, I feel like I have so much time through the hitting zone, whether it's a pitcher, hitter, golfer, right? Like a golf pitcher will be like, man, I get to front leg strike and it's like, I can literally like, I can hold the ball. They can pick a scene that they want to throw off of, you know, a golfer can talk about how they can hold the face. They can turn it down. They can do whatever they want. Totally. Right. But that's, that is, again, is I have the ability to like tune as I came into this landing position. 100%. And there's been a lot of research that has actually shown cause we talked about skill, I think two episodes ago, but the things that separate a functional shot and a dysfunctional one are objectively incredibly, incredibly, incredibly small. Like it differences in quarter of an inch of impact spot differences in half of a second on a clock in face to path variability. So. What we're seeing is that the best players in the world and the research has shown is that they're not organizing those skills the same way every time. There's variability in these very, very, very small amounts prior to that release point, prior to impact, to get the outcome. Consistently inside their dispersion of what they're trying to do. They're not doing it the exact same. So this way, like golfers are want to be consistent. Well, no, you don't, you don't want to be consistent. You want to be able to tune, right? You want to be able to be aware of where that face is to relative to the task of the shot that you're trying to hit. Right? You want to be able to tune the speed of the club relative to the shot that you're trying to hit. Um, that's a great word. I'm going to start using that actually. Tuning. Um, because that's what we do when we do skill development. We say, okay, can you create a rhythm? Right? And then can you get the face a little open to the path, a little close to the path? Can you hit it a little out the toe, a little out the heel? And we're trying to facilitate this, this skill, but then what happens is they get on the golf course and like, oh, this thing's got to be, this thing's got to go my way. Like, now I've got to clamp down and control this, and then they lose access to their skills. They can't tune anymore. Yeah, that's, I mean, like, and so, like, my job from a, how I can, you know, interact with the player is, is I, I would like to give them the greatest access to relative motion that they could have. Available. Right? Because if they have greater relative motion than they are, you're typically gonna, and, and they're of practice and they have got a coach that can, you know, like they've got, they've got all the other stuff on board, then they've got, typically, then they're having a greater chance to, to create space and time to tune, right. Um, so yeah, you know, you know, you can take someone's range of motion by, you know, away by literally putting them in a hallway. Right. It's like, if I, if I crowd you and I take away your space, it's like, you're going to lose, you're going to lose extra rotation. Is that why when we see people hit drivers and doors, oftentimes they swing slower? Yeah, for sure. For sure. You lose extra rotation space. ER is fast. That's what it is. ER speed, right? ER speed. And like, if I take away, if I, if I crowd you and I take away your external rotation space, I lose the ability to produce velocity. I can still do it, but I imagine you're going to see a lot of like, Compensatory IR bets and things that you don't want to see. Oh my gosh, I see people's swing change dramatically when they go outdoors than indoors. Especially with driver, it's weird, like, Pitch shots and iron shots can be kind of similar, But for whatever reason, when you get a driver in people's hands indoors, it's just a freaking mess. Yeah, I've been teaching indoors for two weeks a week. I have hit no driver, basically no drivers with students for that reason. Almost none. It is amazing. Yeah. Now we know why. Thanks, doc. It's a representation, like range of motion, we try to think of it like, because I'm tight and I can't move. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's a representation of behavior. It's a behavior, right? And you may have like the spectrum of a behavior where I can, you know, move in and out. Right. Um, you know, but for such an open environment game as golf, I want to give you. you don't know this until you start messing with people and seeing an individual is like what their access to spaces and how much they need in order to play well. Um, so, you know, for like a hitter, like a very time component thing, I'm going to squeeze them pretty tight a lot of times for golfer. It's like, you know, I'm going to stay away from the trap bar deadlift on a lot of these guys or these sort of things, because it's all I'm doing is stealing, stealing relative motion that I might need. They're going to need eventually, uh, or they will leave. That's awesome. So cool. All right. So we've got some listener questions. Have you still got time doc? I got. Yeah, I'm good. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Um, so the first one, uh, is a really, so, um, Hunter Brown asked. Uh, what are some of the potential ramifications of some of the more popular trends in posture and setup strategies over the years? So you know, there's a, a good example would be like, all right, you get somebody on force plate, right? So they're here, they're, here's their feet, right? So sorry for our podcast folks, but I got my lead foot, trail foot, lead foot's flared out some amount force plate data showing that the lead side vertical is peaking late. Right. So what am I going to do? I'm going to take that lead foot and I'm just going to like square it off. Right. So like for like, when might that be appropriate? And then why would it not be? And then like some of the ramifications of that strategy. Yeah. I mean, I think it's so like, you know, when someone like if they ER, let's say they ER their left foot, so they turn it away from midline. Right. Yeah. You know, it's typically it's to help them. Give a sense that they can clear their left hip so they don't get stuck. Yes. That's fair, right? Um, and then, you know, they can, it's essentially, it's a, it's a, it's a time saver, right? It's giving them more time, right? Um, whether, you know, the, I'm always hesitant to tell someone to turn their foot away from midline, like turn it out. to do anything. I would do it in the gym for a very specific reason in order to capture like a joint position, but to then to accelerate someone through that with a golf club, I think that's a That's a thing that like can work for like two weeks and then all of a sudden you look at them and you haven't seen them in two weeks and now they've got this crazy, crazy right side bend and you're like, where did that come from? They had to slow things down because now they've got all this, they created a space open this direction and now they're just squishing everything out that way. hold on to it to a longer and longer degree. Um, you know, and just because I, you are my foot or I are my foot, like in this case, let's say I turn my foot inwards, right? It doesn't mean that I am turning the tibia inwards either. Right? So it's like I could then now created like even a bigger twist. So let's say I turn, let's say I've got like a, the front part of my shin. My left shin is turned out away from midline. So I've got what we call like a very externally rotated left proximal left tibia by my knee is turned away. So just because I turned my foot in doesn't mean that my tibia came in. So now I've got even you just created a bigger twist. I've got, I've got, I've got an MCL problem really soon. I've got, I've got a left SI joint problem coming really soon maybe. So it's, it's, it's, it's tricky, right? It's not like, you know, yeah. Tweaking one little like you could tweak. That's the that's the thing about dealing with complexity, right? It's not a hierarchy. It's a heterarchy or any small thing. Things can change and have a huge, huge consequence of what we're looking at. So, but then it's like if you've got a good coach's eye and you look at that, you know, like You know, and you don't just look at ball flight and a track, man, and you say like, all right, like, yeah, the path is better, but look at that right side bend. Look at what he's doing from his right, look at what his right foot's doing now. Is that something that I want to see perpetuated over a month period? Yeah. You have to see, right? I'm not saying do it or not, but I think it's something you just, you have to manage. You can't just be looking at one piece of data from it. Totally. And then, like, what are some of the I guess getting off topic now, but off of that question, but like, what are some of the things that, just as like a coach, seeing players come in and out the door, like, I think a big part of our job is injury prevention, right? So what are some things that you would want, just like your, the masses of coaches, to keep an eye on when it comes to preventing injury? If there's anything, I know that's probably a loaded question, but. Um, you know, I think like the massive majority of injury is me creating force from like a position away from midline. So it's like, I'm, I'm creating, I'm trying to create force from an ER position. So, so I, I, I move away from midline a lot and now I've, now I created this. It's external to station space to move into and I'm not saying it's good or not. I'm just saying it's spaced. That's the only thing you can do is move space, move into space to move into. But now I, I own this space, right? So now I have to push down into this space. Um, so you know, like from a, like what looking at, it's like, all right, let's say I got a guy who, you know, who can't turn unless he rolls out the outside edge of his foot. It's all well and good, but he's, he's, unless he can get, recapture that foot in time and get himself to turn back and left, like he's still got to push in the ground. And if he's going to push in the ground from an ankle sprained position or a rolled out position or a back foot position. He can still push in the ground with a lot of force, but we have to figure it, realize where it's most likely coming from, and that's going to be more of like a spine push. So then I push hard down from a top down position, and then I have to create another big yield quickly, other, somewhere else, so then, you know, you can get this kind of disky type of connective tissue, connective tissue type health. So, preventing injury wise, like, yeah, I look at that type of stuff, um, for, you know, Things should be vanilla y, right? Kind of boring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if I see like, you know, any wild side bends and twists and things like that, um. That's a cool rule of thumb. I think that's a decent way to look at it. Like you're gonna. It's like the smell test, right? So like if you just see something and you're just like, nope, that doesn't look right. Right. Things are supposed to, we want things to be distributed. Right. Yeah. So I'm not saying like when people talk about the spine, side bends and twists and does all those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. A hundred percent. But that's also why we have arms and limbs and stuff like that to distribute these crazy side bends and twists and turns that you can do just because you could do something. It doesn't mean you ought to do it over and over and over again. Right. Yeah. I want to distribute it a hundred percent. And then just kind of going through, Oh, there's a, yeah, definitely want to get to this one. What are your thoughts on over speed training? Over speed training? Like, uh, um, we won't, we won't mention necessarily the companies, but like, uh, different weighted clubs that you're going to swing. Yeah. got you. I got you. Um, I mean, I guess it becomes who, what, when, where, right. And that, that would be the only issue I ever have with. Any of this stuff is that there and I don't expect them to talk about this But it's like what's the negative implications of using your trading aid, right? And it's easy for me to say because I don't I'm not talking a trading aid, right? But you know, but like, you know Like, you know, like that would be my thing is like, all right What what is what is gonna cause a problem and what does it because you don't hear about this and they don't know what talks? about about the about What happens when I say I have a weighted club as my, as my speed trading thing, right? Um, you know, so like, think about, think about the, have you seen, like, if you look at someone, like, if someone's squatting with like, maybe like with chains on the side of the bar, right? Like a super, could be a really, really useful strategy. But what it's doing is it's increasing my time to produce force, right? So if I increase my time to produce force over a period of time that when I take the club away and I move it, it might give me a greater ability to produce force for a period of time to bend this club and more effective way to create more velocity, hit the ball further. Um, but again, it's like, when is it become too much? And then what are the strategies that are being used in order to create? The, the velocity of the bands, right? You know, if the shaft, if it's, you know, you're going to have to, in order to turn this thing around, I'm gonna have to squeeze my axial skeleton in an anterior posterior position harder and harder and harder in order to turn this thing around. If I can pop out of that, that's why I create velocity, right? So I go to the top and I squeeze. I've got some videos that I could took. It was kind of interesting where like you, I load, fully loaded up a club and made some swings and then you could kind of see like how squeezed everything is on me. Um, in my, like my ribcage and skeleton, right? Um, so I squeeze and stop because that's how I stop. I have to make myself like a rectangle to stop, right? But then in order to pop out of that, you have to then go, you have to expand pretty quickly, right? So as long as you have the ability to expand, squeeze all you want. Like I would love people if they could, if you could trap Arndella 405 pounds, you can move it off the ground like that. Awesome, right? I want you to produce force. But when you have to then continue to squeeze through the velocity component or the turning component of this force, then we have problems. And then what, what's going to be your indicator that you, that you've overshot your speed training, right? It's not, this isn't like a, it's not like, let's say this is my spectrum of capacity of, right? If I go to, and I swing at 116 and now I swing at 124, it's not like I just went like this, right? It had to go like, I had to go like this to get over there, right? Yeah, exactly. So I have to give up something on the other end of it. Everyone talks about that. Oh, I got more accurate when I swung harder. It's like, sure, but like, can you control a flighted yards anymore? And if you're a 10 and you don't care, that's fine. But if you make a living playing golf, that's a pretty important. Yeah. Right. So, not, not good or bad or negative. Just context dependent. It totally is. It's just. Who, what, when, where, why. Yeah. I think there are, I think there are much more efficient longterm ways to go about getting speed gains in people than just putting a weight on a golf club and having them do it to get that. Right. Just say rip it. Yeah. Well, I want, like, it's, it's, it's like anything else. It's like, you know. I was watching some of the YouTube series of a guy trying to increase his club head speed and he goes and sees these amazing instructors and people and it's all they do is talk about is like, you need to produce force earlier, you need to produce more force or you need to like, but it's not for this conversation about like, look at this, look at the, look at the human being that's in front of you. He can't, he can't produce force earlier. Stop jamming his knee further into the ground. He can't get out of the ground. Yeah, this guy has got a top of his rib cage that is so compressed. There's nowhere for him to push up into. So if he tries to one, wait, he, no wonder he can't straighten his leg. He's just bouncing back down. It just gets pinned, right? So you can have him try to push hard and squeeze her, but he's going to push from a tibial femoral position that you're not going to want. And, and let's say he bumps to 180 for a month, like, all right, like, is it such an ego thing? You're not going to maintain that. So what's the, it's just the pure ego thing, you know? So, but it's not, it's not, you know, trending the direction for a three years, four or five years of that type of speed. Yeah. And that's the other thing I would say, right, are people maintaining their speed with this type of things? Yeah. Yeah. Or the moment they stop, is it gone? Yeah. And that's where I say, like, hey, you've got to get through 18 holes. Right. A lot. You've got to get through 36 holes. Right? A lot of folks got to get through 72 holes. What is their, yeah, what's their mode? So what's the strategy? Yeah. What's their mode to recapture that? Right? Like, the range of motion you have on hole one is totally different than what you'll have on 12. Do you have strategies to recapture during the round? Are you adaptable enough to capture the further round? So those are all, those are all really important questions. Yeah. Well, uh, I think we've got maybe just one more. Um, let me get back to my, my notes here. So, uh, the last one. I thought it was a really good one. This was during our sub stack from, uh, Chris Blackmore, if you remember Chris from, uh, our previous code breakers events. Um, he's like, what are some things that we would likely see or, or common ramifications when someone's posture doesn't match their ISA? So maybe beforehand, like, let's just hard to do, but like real quick, just talk about like posture, uh, likely, likely differences in someone's posture from a wide to a narrow. And then if someone's not. I'm accessing that space, what we would likely see like ramifications of that. I just asked you a 30 minute question. Five minutes. Here we go. Oh, perfect. Yeah. I was like, I do have a publisher. Um, not helping with the podcast, but, um. Yeah. So wider is going to have more space. Like, so sacrum, right? From a side view, wider is going to have more space, that's going to be more of their sacrum look, right? So you can see that I've then, I've got a center of gravity that has a greater chance to move down and back a little more, right? And back being relative, but down at least, right? So from the side on view, this would be like, very traditionally, quote unquote, like, S posture look? This would be like a sacral nutation look. This would be an S posture look. This is where this gets screwed up all the time. That's a great point, right? Cause, cause I could have that. And that. And look where my spine is, right? So this is, this is relative motion. And the sacrum doesn't necessarily move that much, but like, but this is relative motion. Right. So this is what this is. This is, but if I have a, if I have a lower compression, your strategy and I've got a sacrum that's new to it and I turn this direction and it's like, oh, he's got, you know, he's got right. All these sort of things. But so this is like your, this is your rudder, right? So like your wide is going to probably have more access to the backside of the pelvis. So you're going to see maybe a little more, you're going to see more of like a vertical shin presentation for them at setup. If they have access to relative motion, the problem is you might take a wide that doesn't have any access to relative motion. You're like, you need a vertical shin position. Well, how are they going to do with their center of mass like this? Then they just arch harder from their back to try to push their shins back in that position. Versus a narrow, right? A narrower guy who's got more of a sacrum that's kind of here, right? They're going to have a shin position that's a little bit more, uh, like a little more positive shin, shin angle. They're going to be a little more vertical. They just don't have the same access to internal rotation that a narrow, or a wide would have more access to internal rotation than a narrow would have. But you can see like the narrow is going to have more greater access to like external rotation, ability to turn, versus a wide will have more of an IR. Tell us. So, fair to say, wide's a little hinge ier, um, narrow's a little bit more of like a sit. Yeah, they just, careful of the word hinge, it doesn't mean anything, because I can show you a way a narrow would hinge and a wide would hinge and it's like, it wouldn't be the same. Right. Like they could access the same three dimensional space, but then the narrow might be doing it through a lot of lumbar flexion. The wide would be doing it through like a different, like a, like a sacral position, uh, different, like, like a lumbar position. Um, I, I would just say yard or I think would be the shin, the, yeah, the shin angle, your look at chest, like in how the, how, like everything else, chest responds off of that. Um, the, you know, you'll tend to see a narrow with greater access to like, Uh, like mid back expansion, and then a wide. A wide might have more of like a pump handle or like an expansion in the front of their chest space. Um, but yeah, that's what I would look at, that type of stuff. So if you've got a, let's say you've got a narrow who, um, has a very kind of more of like that vertical shin, and is not really matching kind of their ISA, what would you tend to, like what are some of the ramifications of that? I think you, because I, this is a tough question, right? Because it's like the narrow, this, this narrow might have access to internal rotation enough to have a more vertical shin positioning. So I'm going to look at like the, the, maybe the bias of the weight in their foot, right? If they look like they've got a good, of good IR representation of their foot in the ground there, that maybe they have some access to this space here. Right. Um, Um, this is the, this is like, I guess the challenge of, of, again, saying a wide versus a narrow setup, um, because it's, you're going to see idiosyncrasies. You have to coach this and look at a foot and look at a shin and look at, cause all these other things that are going to go into the interplay of how this person sets up. Um, you know, that's, I think they're trying to, I guess, differentiate this from say like a, any other golf model or system. Uh, it just puts a lot more onus on the coach to coach and see the segments, see everything versus just again, just say like, this is a narrow, this is a wide setup. You know, all things being equal, wides will have greater access to internal rotation at setup. Narrows will be a little, have a little higher center of gravity, so they'll have a greater access to, they'll be in more external rotation at setup. What that looks like up and down the chain is going to be related to kind of those positions. Would you tend to see a narrow center of pressure at setup? Like closer to like a little bit more forward, like just inside the balls of the feet maybe? A little forward. Yeah. And then why would be a little bit more? They're going to have to, yeah, a little more, yeah, a little deeper, right? So then, you know, that's the, the greater my ability to do that with relative motion is going to be my greater ability to then access the deeper part of my heel. While maintaining my first med head, because it ain't just rolling on and squeezing on the back of the heel and letting everything go. Right, so that's the, that would be this, the, the, the differential like with a wide versus a narrow. But I like, I like the foot pressure, if you've got access to that. Yep. Mm hmm. Eric, got anything else? Got nothing else. That was awesome though. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me. Any questions, but yeah, you did. You were great. Um, why don't you tell the folks where they can find you have a sub stack, right? I do. Yeah, I do a sub stack with, uh, my partner's, uh, Mike Camperini. It's a context driven. Cool. Yeah. And we do a kind of a weekly post on all sorts of stuff. Um, I'll be doing more. I'll be doing more golf here coming up. Uh, Putting together some like golf athletic development stuff speed programs and then We'll be out in South Carolina probably here. Yeah, so then Use this opportunity to plug code breakers retreat That's gonna be February 24th 25th at the cliffs at Kiwi Springs We still have spots open our kind of our soft Registration deadline is coming up, uh, January 24th, so please do us a favor if you plan on attending, uh, register prior to that date, uh, no pun intended, but it's going to be, uh, Dr. Mike Kay, uh, Helix Golf Institute with, uh, Tony Greco and Chris Walkie, as well as Dr. Raymond Pryor. So it's going to be a really fun time. We hope to see you there again. Uh, again, thank you, Dr. K for, for all you've done and all, all you've shared with us. It's going to be a lot of fun to, uh, to keep exploring. Yeah, I appreciate having me. Thanks guys. Oh, thank you. Well, uh, we hope you enjoyed it and, uh, we'll look forward to continuing this, uh, series on, uh, swing exploration next time on the golf intervention. Have a good night. Peace.