The Golf Intervention

EP 43: Major Misconceptions Surrounding Steep and Shallow, Speed, and Grip Pressure

• Eric Layton • Episode 43

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🏌️ Episode Summary:
In this episode of The Golf Intervention Podcast, we dive into the most common misconceptions we see from students every day—ideas that are so widespread, they've become part of the "golf gospel" even though they often do more harm than good. From swing speed myths to confusion over grip pressure and the steep vs. shallow debate, we’re clearing the air so you can start making real progress.

đź’ˇ Key Takeaway:
Many golfers are chasing fixes for problems they don’t actually have.  This episode is all about challenging assumptions, replacing myths with clarity, and helping you better understand your own swing.

đź”— Links & Resources:

Tyler:

Today's episode is brought to you by the premium content subscribers on the golf intervention substack. And we would of course like to thank all of our listeners for tuning in, you make it all worth while. If you would like to support the show or sign up for our free newsletter, you can do that at thegolfintervention.substack.com or follow the link in the show notes.

Eric:

And welcome back to the Golf Intervention Podcast. It is springtime in Virginia. The sun is out, the pollen has dispersed, the leaves are on the trees. I smacked myself in the head with a driver today and bled for two hours. Never missed a beat in any lesson.

Rob Failes:

missed a beat.

Eric:

And on today's episode, we will discuss that and we're cover. How not to do that. And we will also cover, uh, three misconceptions that I'm seeing with golfers. Probably major misconceptions. Robbie's got three major misconceptions. I don't know his, he doesn't know mine. We're gonna discuss those today and hopefully you, the golfer, can learn something from those to help you play better golf in 2025. So thank you for tuning back in to the golf intervention. Podcast. So Rafael, you and I were just discussing a couple things, including you just wrapped up a golf school. Must have been pretty fun. It's that time of year people are learning about golf

Rob Failes:

People are

Eric:

and at the

Rob Failes:

the

Eric:

people are fired up.

Rob Failes:

and the weather's getting good. And it's kind of like that. Virginia's an interesting state because it does give golfers that sort of trigger. It was like, oh, okay, now it's time to go play golf.

Eric:

Correct it.

Rob Failes:

know, in Georgia and Florida, it's just a normal thing all year round. Whereas in Virginia, right, you put the six away for a little bit and then Now we're off and running and we are busy.

Eric:

oh man, crazy busy. And so that's why we probably haven't been as consistent about recording, although, you know, Easter and traveling and some stuff is going on. But we have lots of things to say. I kind of wanted to do a whole episode on the Master's final round, which we will not do. But there was things to learn there. And I know I'm not on the inner sanctum of Rory McElroy's team, nor would I pretend to be. Uh, but man, I am the biggest Rory fan. And, um, we all watch that. I, I tell everybody I need to reset.

Rob Failes:

him to win that? Yeah.

Eric:

I needed resuscitated three times during that round. I literally died on the couch and like, daddy, are you okay? I like call 9 1 1, like it was that bad. Um, but I think there's things we've discussed here that I just,

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

Rory, you're right there. But hopefully the monkey is off the back now with Rory and, uh,

Rob Failes:

Yes.

Eric:

play great golf. Hopefully this freed him up and, um. I mean, he could play golf as, as well as anybody that's probably ever played the game. And so,

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

um, hopefully he kinda gets over the hump'cause I know I want him to. So anyway, chitchatting about that. Um, I did bang my head today. I, I mentioned that. So I guess I won't leave that hanging out there. I, I will say this, I, I am many things good and bad, right? One of them is not clumsy. Like, I don't fall, I don't slip, I don't drop things Like I was thinking, I've had this, I've never broken an iPhone screen in my life. I don't drop my phone. I don't,

Rob Failes:

That's

Eric:

trip and fall and none of those things, like, I'm just not clumsy. And, um, I don't know if you, if you call this clumsy, but I, I was kind of holding the club. Like a baseball bat, sort of in my hand. We were testing drivers and um, I had the driver like head up in the air, like near my head, and then the grip was pointed towards the ground and pulled it like a baseball bat. And he asked me a question and I, I went to show him like. It was actually about baseball. Like, oh, how did my baseball swing affect this? And I kind of made this like quick motion and the grip must have bounced off the counter and it slammed the club into the side of my head and it like knocked me and my ear starts bleeding. And as we learned Pat this past summer, ears bleed a lot. Okay. Like ears bleed. And that is true. I bled for two hours, like holding a tissue on my ear

Rob Failes:

lord.

Eric:

and I was like.

Rob Failes:

was not the peak of your athletic, uh, history in that

Eric:

No. I was like, whoa. I will tell you I never missed a beat. I taught boom, boom, boom. Lesson less, less. I sat for two of them though'cause and they were very nice. My next two, my next two lessons were like, do you need to like go somewhere? I'm like, no, I'll be fine.

Rob Failes:

go to the hospital.

Eric:

I'm like, I don't have time to bleed. I don't have time for concussions. You're coming over the top and we gotta fix it. It is time. So anyway.

Rob Failes:

nothing less though. Expect

Eric:

Yeah, this is just keep, you know, these are the teaching golf could be tough. I mean, people don't realize

Rob Failes:

a contact sport man.

Eric:

it's a contact sport. But that brings me to the topic of today's show, which is common misconceptions. I. And I think that this time of year we're teaching so much, right? You're just turning over student after student, after student lesson, after lesson, after lesson. And every time you're trying, if you teach like Robbie and I teach, you're actually trying to gain an understanding of what their understanding is, right? Because you're trying to go on this journey together. To play better. And one of those things is you're trying to understand their intentions and what they're trying to do to produce golf shots or score better or, you know, whatever they're trying to do. So a lot of times we're, we're gaining these, we're asking them questions and we're gaining insights into what they think. And these are things that obviously, uh, none of this is making fun of people. It's just like people think things and it can hamper their development. Right. So I was, I was thinking about today's episode. I thought, okay, I'm seeing all kinds of misconceptions. Some we pick on a little bit on this show, but I'm seeing all kinds of things that are holding people back. And so I thought, let's do a show where, let's talk about the things that we're seeing on our lesson tees that are probably holding people back just from a misconception standpoint. Um, because we don't need those, we don't need those constraints, man. We need to, we need to free ourselves up from. Um, what's holding us back, and I've said it for a long, long time for my game personally, it was addition by subtraction.'cause the more I learned about what, what was right and wrong and what didn't matter and what was relevant and what wasn't relevant and what was kind of BS and what was old wives tales and what was things caddies whisper to you when you're playing bat and like what was actually real, like

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

real. And as we sorted through that. I just got better at golf. Just kept getting better because I wasn't, I wasn't chasing my tail through these misconceptions. So, um, I would say that, I'll start us off on this one just'cause I'm already rambling, but the number one I'm gonna start, I'm not going backwards. I'm gonna say number one for me

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

is that when people have ball flight issues, I feel like they. Put way too much emphasis on the shape or the direction of the swing, what you might call influence of path.

Rob Failes:

one.

Eric:

Well,

Rob Failes:

Oh my God. My number one was literally, people are directly equating the shot to the swing.

Eric:

yeah, and I would say that even, I would say I'm a little different that, but I it's the same. Um, but even in that, let's say in the, in the skill of ball flight control.

Rob Failes:

mm-hmm.

Eric:

Like every time they hit a crooked shot, they think it's the swing shape or the swing direction. When a lot of times it could be the club. I mean, most of the time the club face, excuse me all the time, the club face angle is way more important. Right. Okay.

Rob Failes:

Correct.

Eric:

remember, I have a head wound today, so this could be a little tricky. We, you spit this stuff out so. Let me say this again, and if you didn't go back to the show, we did a few episodes ago, oh no, four or five episodes ago. On the ball, on the ball flight loss, which was really detailed on the science of what makes the ball go where it goes. And we went through the stuff that's really matters and the curvature of the shot, really assuming center contact, assuming good contact, decent contact is, is influenced by the direction the club is moving, which is the path, and then the face angle and impact, right? And. The face is just way, way, way more influential than the path. So if I'm hitting one and I'm, you know, I'm hitting it to the left,

Rob Failes:

ladder.

Eric:

the student, a lot of times, first instinct is just to try to swing to the right, right? But if it's a closed club face, everything gets worse. Are you seeing similar, I know you said it's your number one too, and in the same vein, so, um, have you seen some of those recently on the lesson t.

Rob Failes:

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. And it comes more from a, like a, a judgment thing is like, oh, that was a bad shot, which means that was a bad swing. Right?

Eric:

Yeah.

Rob Failes:

The question becomes, all right, well what's the solution to bad swing? Right? Like,

Eric:

Change swing.

Rob Failes:

good swing, right? So

Eric:

Yeah. Right,

Rob Failes:

So it's,

Eric:

right.

Rob Failes:

not, uh, it's not anything tangible. It's not anything objective. It's not anything fact-based or measurable that you can actually learn from, right? And so a lot of my day is spent getting people to use skill differential training to disassociate and their perception of what a swing is. the shot because the differences in the shot are the skills, right? And the differences in the skills are really, really, really small. Where the bottom swing arc is in space, the face to path, the speed, like we've talked ad nauseum on this podcast, um, the differences in them are really, really small, right? And so. That is, that is the majority of, uh, of what I see. And it just creates a lot of anxiety because you have this belief if the, just the tiniest thing in your swing is off, it's gonna create a quote unquote bad golf shot, right? And then it creates this, like we've said before, this constriction of space with longer, widespread, more temp, more, um, personal consequences. All right, so it's very destabilizing with your confidence. It doesn't feel good. Um, you don't tend to learn as much again because you're just judging as good or bad. You're not actually giving yourself info. So it's, a, it's a, spiral that I see a lot of folks. I may have just had one earlier today where it was, oh my, I feel like I've lost my swing. The swing was no different than he's been for the last. 3, 4 years that I've been working with him. And it's like, okay, first question is, know, where is the bottom of your offs swing? Do you know? And he was like, it could be here. It could be there. I was like, all right, hold on. Time out. Right? is the first step. You need to know what your tendency is. skill number one, right? What, why are we worried about our golf swing if we don't know where our tendency is with that first skill? Right? So we went through it, started hitting some better shots and I kind of tricked him. I was like,'cause we were doing some differential training and he got his bottom of the swing arc a little bit further back, a little closer to him. So it was getting it off the heel essentially. he hit one on the sweet spot. I was like, oh. I was like, how'd that swing feel? He's like, oh man, that one felt great. That swing felt, I was like, um, bad news bear. Still, it was the same swing,

Eric:

It was the same swing. Yeah, it wasn't a different swing.

Rob Failes:

And

Eric:

Yeah.

Rob Failes:

I just saw his, his shoulders kind of, you know, kind of exhale. Like, oh gosh, you're right. I've only been using the skill feedback to tell me if it was a good swing or not. I was like, that's what we gotta get away from.

Eric:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that just the, we've harped on this probably it feels like for the last five or six episodes, but mainly because it's that time of year where people are ramping up and playing golf. Hmm. And so I felt like it's, the message is like the swing is not the shot. The swing gives you access to skills that produce the shots. And so you, you, you know, that's your gateway, so to speak. Now we're working on plenty of swings these days. I'm gonna tell you what, right now there's plenty of swing work going on in our bays.

Rob Failes:

sure.

Eric:

Um, but at the end of the day, um, if we don't understand where the shots come from. It's really hard because then we start to go into this loop. And what I was even saying, like I think our points are similar and on the same vein, but slightly different.'cause it's like if I, if I think that the faces, if I think the ball's. Being going to the right because I'm, you know, swinging to the right or something, and I start swinging more, like all these massive quote unquote swing changes where I go Google, like, change my swing, like fix the hook or fix it. And then I, I don't have the context of what's going on. So being able to. Really be able to judge yourself across some feedback levels. Like, is my face open or close? Am I, is the low point, you know, too far forward, too far back? Is it good? Am I, you know, all those things help us, right? But we don't, when we have a bad ball flight shape, think I need to change the shape of my swing, like right off the bat. Like that's, it's too complex to do that. And people get, and this, this happened actually when I was little dazed today, that in between lesson where I was like. In and out.

Rob Failes:

day did this happen? Was this early

Eric:

It was late and no, it was late in the day. It was in my one, it was in my, I'm trying to think, it was in my one o'clock lesson and it happened like towards the end, probably with like 20 minutes left. So my two o'clock lesson, this is the one I'm talking about. I was a little dazed and it was interesting because it takes me to my second misconception, um, but I'm not gonna bring that up yet. But the fact is, um. You know, he was Eric, I'm making terrible contact. Okay. So at least he knows it's a skill that's going on, right? I'm just hitting it poorly. I, I need to figure out what's going on. I'm not making good contact. I'm topping everything. I'm whatever. And I. I mean, he was standing up and swinging the, and I didn't have the track man on, but I'm wanna guess his, his path was like seven or eight degrees to the right with like no attack angle, like hitting up on it and just thinning and shanking, like all this stuff.

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

And I was like kind of working through this swing and I'm like, you know, we're swinging miles to the right. He goes, well, that's what I was trying to do. Right? So it's just like. Something must have gone wrong and the Google machine lit up and then all of a sudden that's, you know, the literally the thing he was trying to do was what's was hurting him. And his handicap's gone up four strokes in two weeks and he plays like four days a week. Like it was bad, like hitting it bad for him from a nine to a 13, like 50% increase in, in handicap. That feels like a lot. Right.

Rob Failes:

a lot.

Eric:

So, um, so we had downwind that misconception for him a little bit. Alright, Rob fails. Anything else you wanna add in the, uh, blame your swing, um,

Rob Failes:

Okay. Yeah, no, I think, I think very similar. I think yours is more towards the, the why the ball is doing what it's doing kind of thing. Whereas mine is more, just more philosophical. Like good and bad is not the answer. It's, it is what it is, what

Eric:

Right?

Rob Failes:

happened. Right? And then. Is your golf swing allowing you to be skillful? Right. And do you have a way of figuring out if it is or is not?

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

And that's where the help of a coach comes in oftentimes. Right?

Eric:

A hundred percent.

Rob Failes:

that'd be, that'd be my, that'd be my big one.

Eric:

Cool. Okay, now give me your number two. I went first last time, so you, you lay it on me. Come on. Number two, Rob fails.

Rob Failes:

Number two, the idea of should.

Eric:

The idea of good.

Rob Failes:

no should.

Eric:

Oh, should.

Rob Failes:

Should,

Eric:

How about that? Uh, did you like the Instagram video I sent you the other day?

Rob Failes:

Uh uh. Yes, I did. Yeah.

Eric:

I mean, have to, should, can't, must.

Rob Failes:

must. Yeah. It's pretty brutal.

Eric:

Alright, so enlighten us a little bit about that.

Rob Failes:

Yeah. So it's like I get this question all breaking day long. It's should the ball be in my stance? Where

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

should my hands be on the club? should I be aiming here? What shots should I be trying to hit? What club should I use here? What, and it's just always in this very, there is a correct or an incorrect of thing, and that's the beauty of our game, right? There are so many options in terms of there's really only like four main rules. It's like starts on the tee box, legal swings, the ball as it lies. Play the course as you found it. Right. Most of the rules are when you can't do one of those two like last ones. Right. And there's some etiquette stuff that you could say you probably should do terms of just navigating the golf course and being someone that you others wanna play with, right? We can say should when it comes to that, and that's pretty much where it ends. The way that you get the ball from point A to point B, there is no should. Right. It's if you're standing over a shot and you're saying, all right, well, the, the, the math is telling me that I should do this, but in my heart of hearts, I just don't want to do it this way. I don't want to hit this shot. I just, this is not how I want to do it. It's okay. Then don't do it. Right. Pick the shot that you want to hit, that you feel good about, that you're not gonna regret the way you did it afterwards send it. All right.

Eric:

Send it.

Rob Failes:

That's a right. That is a, that's a huge, huge deal. we have a lot more margin for, for variability in terms of um, the way we stand, the way we hold it, the way we, again, like the shot choices that we have, like, there's just so many options that if we pencil ourselves in saying, okay, well there's a correct that I'm trying to find. Oftentimes it'll lead your attention in very non-relevant places. You start to, to say, okay, I've gotta make sure everything is exactly perfect for me to be able to play the way I want. And that's just not a great place to be. I, I, I, I try to give golfers that you need to give yourself grace for these, these things to change, You cannot say, all right, I'm gonna set it and forget it. Right? You are, you're human. You cannot repeat, you cannot step in the same river twice, so to speak. Um, you've gotta give yourself that ability to be flexible and portable with your skills. So when people say, how should I hold it? I typically say, well, I'll give you some ways that you could. Right. You could hold it this way, you, you do not have to hold it this way. this is where the exploration comes in. This is like, okay, I currently believe that this is a good idea for me, but gonna keep testing. I'm gonna keep trying out, I'm gonna keep exploring. I'm gonna keep figuring out what the best way is for me to go about this. Because Lord knows, I mean, if you look at the Hall of Fame, like it is littered with like, quote unquote bad golf swings. Right.

Eric:

Yeah,

Rob Failes:

there's, uh, there is no should. That would be my, my number two.

Eric:

I like that one. And I would add to it, I mean, I think this lends to coaching as well, because I, I sent you this video. It was just, it's, look, it's probably from the eighties or nineties, right? It's like nothing new, but it's this big name, golfer, what you call Hall of Fame golfer, uh, golf instructor. Excuse me. And in the 32nd like video, he said to hit a good golf shot, you have to do this and your, your left arm must do this and this elbow has to do this. It can't do this, you can't do this. Your hip has to do this. And I was like watching it going, you know, he really is convicted that he believes everything he says is true. Right.

Rob Failes:

Yes. Yeah.

Eric:

I think for some people the advice that he gives would definitely work. Right? But at the end of the day, when you're gonna play your best golf, and our philosophy would be, and a lot of teacher's philosophy would be, is that's, that's indoctrination. And that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, right? I had one today where the guy was, the face was open. Okay. Your club face open and impact to the path. 13 degrees on average. Okay. Newer golfer. And he had been playing fine and then he kinda went away and he, he text me from, from Florida and he is like, man, I've added a stroke to every hole. He's like, I need help. So he came back in and that, you know, and I watched him like the clubface is just wide open, right? You could see it on the first few swings. And so what did we do? We explored some ways to CLO to get the CLO face square or to close it or less open, whatever you wanna call it. And one of them was like, alright, new golfer. Let's try to str, you know, maybe we'll strengthen the left hand grip a little bit to see. I said we explored that option. Let's try. Hey, I said let's try something with your left hand grip. That could be it. Maybe a potential answer. Um, guess what happened? It made it worse. I,

Rob Failes:

open. Yeah.

Eric:

okay, so

Rob Failes:

You never know, right? We

Eric:

there's no textbook.

Rob Failes:

yes.

Eric:

know.

Rob Failes:

Text

Eric:

So he, he plays better. What's that

Rob Failes:

you, you said, you said text bur

Eric:

textbook answer? I'm telling you. I've got a concussion,

Rob Failes:

I'm, I'm sorry. I couldn't

Eric:

um,

Rob Failes:

Mm.

Eric:

textbook. Um, so.

Rob Failes:

Yes.

Eric:

You know, it just hit

Rob Failes:

idea what's gonna happen before it happens.

Eric:

correct. So there is no right, like you, you could look in the textbook or Burke or whatever we said, and um, you know, a stronger, more rotated, you know, over grip could. Make the club face come in more closed

Rob Failes:

Yes.

Eric:

for him. It made it more open. Why? I don't really know. We, we hit a few. Clearly was uncomfortable for him. He didn't like it, you know, could be an anatomical, right? Uh, it doesn't matter. It just didn't work, right? So the point is when you bring a student in and, and, and what Robbie's not saying is, um, if you come and you're a beginner golfer. You're, and someone says, Hey, where's the ball position supposed to be? Robbie's not gonna say, well, I don't have the answer for you. You're gonna have to explore. I mean, you're gonna give him a jumping off point. We're gonna coach him up. Right? And so that's like you're helping them learn. But there isn't. We didn't go to PGA school and they say, here's the grip, here's the stance, here's the ball position, here's the back swing, here's the, but. It. There's a lot of very high ego people that teach that think they have all the answers, and this is one of the things that you have to determine as a student when you go find yourself a coach, do you want a coach that tells you, you have to do this and you have to do this, and you have to do this and can't do that? You can't do that. Or do you want one that's gonna work with you, your capabilities? Your limitations, your learning style, to try to find a, a way to draw out of you, your best way to play golf. And that is gonna start with exploration and options and skill training and variability and all these things that we talk about. So, um, I like that one. Really, I, I like the way you framed that for this episode. There is no should, there's lots of coulds. Right. And don't ever say can't, don't ever say can't in my bay. Oh. When people say can't, I'm like, please don't say can't.

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

Right. Um, alright, so my number two, my number two. Moving right along my, there's just, we could do a whole show on this and maybe we will, we probably will, but I think social media feeds this one big time. Um, misconceptions around these two words, steep and shallow, and the biggest one being that one of them is better than the other one. I just told a story about how I made a, I worked hard with a player today to make their swing steeper, right? Because they were so shallow. I would say that probably in the steep and shallow story, which I don't stand there all day say, in terms of steep and shallow.'cause a, most people have no idea what you're talking about.'cause you could be referring to a lot of stuff, but. For the most part, um, I work on the quote unquote steepening equally as much as I do shallowing, I would say with people. And this notion that everything has to be shallow has actually just kept me really busy because it screws up as many people as being steep. And I don't,

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

it just is what it is. It is misinterpreting or it's just not, it's not gonna work for the person that's in front of them. So. Um, I think that if I were, if I were a golfer trying to get better, trying to improve, um, I don't think I'd worry about steep and shallow at all. I don't think it would be on my mind. I, I, I think I would let it go. I think it would just let it us hit. Okay, we're gonna make a bold statement on the Golf Intervention Podcast today. People let it go steep and shallow. Let it go. Doesn't it feel good? Take a breath.

Rob Failes:

it feels great.

Eric:

Shallow is not better. Let it go. Let it out. Shallow is not better, man. I feel better. How about you?

Rob Failes:

I already feel better,

Eric:

What do you think? What do you, what Do you

Rob Failes:

like I, I think that, um. It just gets flushed out when we do skill different terrain, to be honest with you.

Eric:

a hundred percent agree? Yep.

Rob Failes:

It's like,

Eric:

I.

Rob Failes:

if, if the bottom of your golf swing is to the right and then in our efforts to get it too far left, the shaft pitch changes or whatever, then great. I. Cool. Sounds great. Right? If it, if the bottom swing's too far in front of the ball, like to the left, relative to the golfer, like as the golfer looks at the golf ball to their left closer to the target we're just exploring moving that bottom swing arc further to the right or further to the left and the shaft pit changes, great. Right? But it's, it's, it's just not super relevant. A lot of times, I think the, the word shallow when it comes to like. Backswing downswing. Geometry is really describing topic from Dr. McKenzie that actually isn't very easy to see. It's easier to feel especially if you do some rhythm stuff, if you do some single arm drills, if you do some things like that, like much easier to feel that relationship. Than it is to see it. And a lot of times, like you could be creating this nice relationship and it look quote unquote steep, could be not creating that relationship and it looked, quote unquote, shallow. So to me it's like, what's the point? Like, why are we putting our attention on the geometry of the shaft pitch? Really? Uh, it doesn't, it doesn't move the needle for me much.

Eric:

Let it go. Let it go. Golfers let it go. Um, and the term just gets thrown around way too, um, way too many things. So to me, like, okay, the, the pitch of the shaft is what you're, what you're referring to, right? Like some angle of the shaft early in the downswing, right? That's steep. Well. I don't know, I'd call that upright or maybe flatter or, you know, is it shallow or steep? To me? To me, shallow and steep has a lot to do with, um, you know, what the, how the club is moving at impact. Like, it has nothing to do with the, with the shaft pitch, right? So like some people are very steep with the shaft, quote unquote shaft pitch early in the downswing. And those are people that are end up being so shallow and impact a lot of'em. It's crazy.

Rob Failes:

angle. Yeah.

Eric:

Correct. So an upward attack angle I would refer to as shallow. Right. And downward attack angle would be steeper. That's my opinion

Rob Failes:

Mm-hmm.

Eric:

outswing direction. For a path for a right hander would be, in my opinion, more shallow. Right. Or out hand is probably steeper, but that's not even a great descriptor either. So I don't even use it. Right. I just use that was more up or more down or more end to out or more out to end. Right. And the shaft pitch geometry is just. It's a little bit of a waste of time to even look at. I think it's so heavily influenced by Instagram because people can show it, show something, and draw lines on it, and it just gets confusing. And the fact that like people are showing Justin Rose's pre-shot routine and being like, everyone should do this. Don't turn in the downswing and drop your arms straight down. I'm like, okay, that's gonna keep me busy for a while in the teaching bay too. I can't wait to see that one. Um, so

Rob Failes:

Yep.

Eric:

I guess that just goes into the other stuff we always talk about, but you can't oversimplify this game in a lot of ways, right? Like, don't try to do it. Don't, don't try to, it's just, it's just golf. Find a good coach, take a lesson, don't talk about shaft pitch. Life will be good. I think that's all I have to say about that. Um, alright, number three. I can't decide which number three I want to do. I have four just in case you had, you and I overlapped a little bit. Do you have a good number three? You wanna do your number three next?

Rob Failes:

Yeah, I got a solid one.

Eric:

Okay. You, you do your number three, how decide.

Rob Failes:

it's grip pressure versus tension,

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

right? So this is a big one recently, right? Because typically in my lessons, we'll start off depending on kind of where they're at with either skill or swing stuff. Um, if we start with swing stuff, which, if I've got a beginner or someone who hasn't played a lot, you know, a lot of times we're starting with swing stuff. We're saying, okay, how can we hold it? How can we stand? How can we get this club swinging and rotating around us right? In a nice general rhythm that we can develop skill off of right in. The biggest barrier to that that I see is excess tension in the ri surrounding the wrist, surrounding the forearms and elbows. Surrounding the shoulders. Right. So really like if I were to go in there and grab the club and try to move them around, very difficult to move the club. What's very interesting with those same people though, is that when I look at their grips, there's a lot of space, there's a lot of air, there's a lot of gapping the hands and the club. So like you could literally get your, you could, you could see where there could be some motion between the grip. Itself in the hands during the swing, like the grip, like literally the grip can move in the hands during the

Eric:

Oh yeah, I see it all day long.

Rob Failes:

right? So I would say they have an excess of tension with not enough grip pressure, right? So what we want is we want to actually get the club very secured in the fingers, right? So where there's no gapping, there's no space, there's no air, there's no way for the club to move relative to the hand between. swing and impact, right? it impacted if you hit the tow or heel. It's gonna move around a little bit, obviously. But if I were to go in there for these golfers, again, it's very secure, so I cannot possibly take the club outta their hands. But if I try to move them, there's no resistance. I can easily just pick up their arms and they fall down like dead weight. I can move the club in any which way possible, there's no. There's no strain whatsoever. they're tension free, but they've got appropriate grip pressure. And I'm not talking about squeezing the life out of it. not talking about like a, I don't think you can like actually hold it like a baby bird either. Like, that's garbage too, right? So have it, have it, have it. Hold it tight enough, hold it secure enough where it doesn't move around in your fingers. But then give me. As little tension as possible around the wrist, around the forearm, around the elbow, around the shoulder, right? Because we want them swinging freely. We do not want it to be steered. So that would be my, my number three.

Eric:

I like it. Um, I've been working, I've been working on my grip strength recently. I've been doing it for probably like a year actually. Um, I have, um, you know, like a squeezy thing that I use and then I've been doing. Like, um, dead weight body hangs that really help you kind of do it on for a minute and off for 32nd. You know, you're trying to increase your grip pressure and I've been, um, doing some resistance training, which helps too. Um, but I can feel, I. Uh, when my hands get stronger. And I think that grip strength is something we don't discuss enough probably in golf. Like there's a lot of things we discuss in golf and grip strength isn't one, but I can tell when my hands are weaker. I just don't, I don't play as good at golf at all. And I think it plays into what you're talking about is I'm able to support that club with a strong grip that's not, um. Creating tension up through the, and it just lends to control. I mean, if you shake hands with a tour player, they, it feels like you've never shaken hands with a tour player where they feel like they have a weak grip, like their wrists and hand. Even the LPGA tour shake hands with a i, um, obviously I'm friends with one, but, um, uh, what's the name? Austin ert. Is that one, is that an lp? Yeah. Austin ert, is that her name anyway, PXG player, she was out playing one day at CCV. Um, and I, you know, just met her on the range and shook her hand. I'm like, gracious, like they're just strong. Like you cannot be really good at golf without strong hands. And so to your point, like there's this, again, misconception around like. W you don't wanna be floppy, you wanna be strong. Right. And, but it's a, it's an interesting one. I think it's a point well noted.

Rob Failes:

It,

Eric:

Um,

Rob Failes:

free. It's free from the, basically the wrist out.

Eric:

yeah. Yeah. But strong in the hands.

Rob Failes:

hands.

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

fingers are secured. But like, I would even say like, the hand can be soft, like you can have. Relatively like up here, as I'm looking at the camera here, like up there, up here can be relatively tension free,

Eric:

Yeah,

Rob Failes:

like fingers and heel pad up against that, that, that's, that's solid. That's not going anywhere.

Eric:

so apparently around the Master's time, John Daley, I don't know why this went viral, but at least five people asked me about this, John Daley. No, this is part of what you were saying. This is part of yours. Um, John Daley did some thing where he said, um, some clip must have gone around TikTok or something where he said, uh, people get fit for clubs all the time, but they always play their wrong size grip.'cause no one gets fit for grips. Nobody. And like four people, not CCV people. This was like,

Rob Failes:

Mm-hmm.

Eric:

friend of mine at church and like somebody like. How come no one gets fit for grips? I said I fit people for grips. Every single, like every club fitting, they get fit for their grip size. But to your point, like a lot of men play grips that are way too small, in my opinion. And then the club is moving around in there. There's so much space in there.

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

I've been actually putting some people in the big, like Bryson grips. Um.

Rob Failes:

Mm. Cool.

Eric:

There's been some study around that recently, um, that, that the oversized grip can actually lead to, to more speed. And I, and I wonder if it's what you're talking about, like I can get it in there and secure it and kind of put a good firm grip on it, but it's,

Rob Failes:

see that.

Eric:

but I can keep my rest of my body loose by doing it. So, um, yeah, I put some jumbo max on this dude, like he was playing mid-size, which was fine, but he's six three. And he wore an XL glove and it was small on him. It was like kind of tight. And I'm like, bro, hold this. I just had a jbo Max on a, on a random nine iron and the, so people could feel it. And he was like, oh my gosh. And he, I ordered him a set and he, we put it, we put him on and he said, changed his game co completely changed his game. And I'm like, well, there you go. Grip size, huge. So yes.

Rob Failes:

That's cool. Yeah.

Eric:

Eh, I would argue with John Daly on this one. People definitely get fit for grip size. I mean, every fitting we do, we do a lot of fittings. We fit for grip size, so that is it. Okay. Number three. This one's kind of general, so this could take a little while, but there's so many misconceptions around speed. Okay. Starting with things like, and we say this all the time, like you and I will hear, oh, I know. My problem is I'm quote unquote. Swinging too fast. Um, or I need to really slow my back swing down'cause I know that's gonna help me. Um,

Rob Failes:

Oh yeah. Yep. That's

Eric:

a tough one. Um,

Rob Failes:

the same crappy rhythm. Slower. great.

Eric:

rhythm is a big discussion when it comes to that, right? Um,

Rob Failes:

we'll talk about that.

Eric:

so.

Rob Failes:

I.

Eric:

Yeah, so many, so many misconceptions around speed and then even when people are trying to get more speed, how they're doing that is can be a big misconception too.

Rob Failes:

Yeah. Yep.

Eric:

I would say that the one I see the most is, I know I'm swinging too fast. So I think the feel of that for people is this sense of like kinda losing control and losing their rhythm in their swing. So I think that

Rob Failes:

A

Eric:

correct. So, so do me a favor, Robbie,'cause I think you do this really well. You do this much better than I do. Describe to the podcast listener the difference between tempo, speed, and rhythm. Please,

Rob Failes:

So, all right, buckle up. So tempo is the overall amount of time in the swing. All right? So we're gonna use a different, uh, like syllable counts as a good comp for this. So. If I were to make a golf swing with a one syllable of time, right? So my backswing is gonna be John, my entire downswing and follow through is gonna be rum. So the amount of time it takes to say, John, the amount of time it takes to say rum is the, is the duration of time in the backswing, and then the duration of time in the downswing. So both words, John backswing rom downswing, and fall through. Now if I go to a two syllable. Right. If we used driver driver more time, that's a different tempo, right? You could say it's a quote unquote. That's why I don't like using faster or slower. When we're talking about tempo, it's just more time or less, right?

Eric:

Yeah.

Rob Failes:

It's just a different tempo. And then typically then we go to three syllables. use Virginia. Virginia, Different tempo more time. Alright, so. That's important. Distinction number one. All right, so just for, for someone who says, okay, faster tempo, slower tempo, just understand. Okay. Faster tempo is less time slower. Tempo is just more time.

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

Rhythm is the pattern of time. So is your backswing and then entire downswing involved through relatively matched, they slightly different in one way or another? What is that ratio? I.

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

In my experience, when the rhythm is fairly free, free, um, when it is uninhibited, those two timeframes tend to match up ish, right? It's not gonna be

Eric:

Close, correct?

Rob Failes:

but they're close-ish,

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

So when you go Virginia and then Kat. Okay.

Eric:

Right.

Rob Failes:

most, most of the day.

Eric:

Yep.

Rob Failes:

And it's not even Virginia, it's usually California, uh, cat. Right.

Eric:

Yep. Yep.

Rob Failes:

what I see. That would be a different rhythm. That would be kind of a very off, what I call like an off time rhythm.

Eric:

Right.

Rob Failes:

typically that's very steered, that's very tight, that's very tense. you're very much grabbing the club, forcing it. Uh, to the ball, things of that nature that we don't like to see.

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

again, the rhythm, the word kind of freedom, rhythm, kind of the, um, the overall pattern time. speed. If we're talking about it, is measured in club head speed at the ball.

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

So I want you to think of this more as a. Total quantity of energy, necessarily the tempo'cause this is what most people do. They equate, okay, I gotta swing faster by increasing the speed of the tempo, which is just less time. So then they go from Virginia, Virginia drive her cat.

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

to get more clubhead speed at the bottom.

Eric:

Right.

Rob Failes:

in doing so, they give themselves less time. Probably not that much different swing, like from a, a, uh, swing size standpoint, quite a bit shorter swing a lot of times. And so they end up actually having less energy at the golf ball. Less momentum of less momentum at the golf ball. They're trying to swing faster, faster, faster, faster, faster. the club is actually decreased. Like the amount of momentum the ball is getting from the club at impact is decreasing. So what we're really looking for is we're looking for an amount of force. So again, let's talk about like, let's use like a three syllable word as an analogy here. So let's say someone's backswing was energy and then their tire downswing was energy, right? So more or less. just the amount of work, the amount of force that you're putting into that, essentially that first syllable. So any swing in like, like a quote unquote true swing, like you're creating some force into the club early, and then you're allowing that force to become momentum that swings back and then back into, into the golf ball. So the more force you put into that initial syllable. The further it's gonna travel and the faster it's gonna travel. That's why the time stays the same. If I give it less force, it's gonna go slower, but it's also not gonna go as far. So the time is gonna be the same. I'm gonna be Virginia, Virginia for a 40 yard pitch shot. Virginia, Virginia for an 150 yard iron shot. And then Virginia, Virginia for a 300 yard drive.

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

I'm just putting more force, more work into that early part of the swing, then I'm allowing that force to become momentum that stretches my body and swings my arms and rotates the club back and then back down into the golf ball. So just to review, tempo is time, amount of time. The rhythm is the pattern of time. What we're looking for in clumped speed and the feedback when we see the ball, speed is an amount of momentum and it's an amount of energy. It's like how much water are you pouring into the bucket?

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

five pounds of water in the bucket? Do you have 10 pounds of water in the bucket? Right. That's what we're looking for. That water, that amount of momentum is accumulated over time. So you can think of, okay, I'm either gonna be a very much a one syllable golfer, which is like, uh, imagine like you're going from a fire hose, so it's a rush of water for a shorter amount of time. Or I'm gonna go like from my faucet, from my kitchen faucet for a longer period of time. That's my three syllable. Right? But it's. Right. How much, How

Eric:

Mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

is actually getting that bucket could be the same in either. And you can change them for either way that you're organizing that. it's just the difference in the amount of force you're putting into kind of that first syllable.

Eric:

Yeah. So I think that, going back to the misconception,'cause that's beautifully described, right? So if you, if you listen to that and have a little. To tough time visualizing, just rewind it and listen to it again.'cause it, it, it makes total sense and people use those terms. That could be another misconception, like tempo, rhythm, you know, it's all over the place. Speed, fast, quick, whatever. So here's the, here's the main misconception, right? People feel this mis patterning of their rhythm, you know, and then they, they define that as, I'm swinging too fast. Right. So then what do they do? So they may, in your syllable explanation, they, they might be like a, a one, two, half, you know, it's like a, it's, it's, or a 1, 2, 3, 1 is probably another way to say it, right? Like you were just describing. So what do they do? They slow the back swing down.

Rob Failes:

Mm-hmm.

Eric:

that does? It makes it worse.

Rob Failes:

Worse.

Eric:

It makes it worse. Okay. So I spend more time speeding. People's back swings up than I do slowing their back swings down. There is no question about that. It is very rare for someone to come in and for me to tell'em they gotta, we could explore slowing their backswing down. Almost never happens. Sometimes I'm putting but.

Rob Failes:

Like, um, I, I can tell you the, uh, the research that was done on this by Dr. Bob Grober, he found that 90 ish percent of PGA tour pros were in, like, basically in from three syllables to one. So when you think about Virginia, Virginia, that's three syllables. There are so many golfers that come to my lesson T that aren't even close to three syllables, that are like four syllables, five syllables, six syllables in the back swing, and now they don't have any momentum.'cause it's really hard. Just think about sitting on a swing set. All right. I My favorite analogy. Is imagine you're on a swing set, right? giving that a good initial push, and then at some point you gotta get your hands off and let it swing freely. happens if you, if that initial push you're not, if you don't get enough force into that initial push, well, what happens is. You gotta go, right? You never actually get the opportunity to take your hands off the wheel, right? You keep your hands, you have to keep your hands on that child the whole way up. And then now it's not swinging at this point. You just gotta grab and pull this thing back down. that's what people feel when like, oh, I'm getting quick, I'm I my swings too fast. What they're feeling is no momentum. I'm just up in space. I've just changed orientations. The club is now just somewhere over there. When it was added out in front of me, now, I was just somewhere else in space. I have no energy built up in the system. Now. I've just gotta try to find it in a very, very, very short amount of time. Um, and by the way, that energy is usually directed to the ball and towards the target, is what we know in terms of the, the direction that force that we want to be applied. Uh, is actually, going in the other direction, right? We do not want to be pulling the grip toward the ball and toward the target, We actually want that force. When that club has momentum, it's kind of moving back toward the target. That force is going actually away from the target. And then it's the momentum of the club that swings into the ball and toward the target. It's not you forcing it ball or toward the target. So that's

Eric:

Yeah.

Rob Failes:

Um,

Eric:

Yeah. But it makes that,

Rob Failes:

to,

Eric:

I think it was a great illustration. I really do. And I think people will get that a hundred percent. And if you really wanna see the best, I think at this watch, Rory r Rory McElroy, Roy swing, like, um.

Rob Failes:

yeah.

Eric:

Watch how much energy he puts into his initial takeaway. I mean, his backswing tempo is extremely fast. I mean, you don't see it because it's such a beautiful rhythm and Yeah, and it's a,

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

know, but it's a beautiful rhythm. But he has so much speed, right from the takeaway and, um. He captures that really well at the top,

Rob Failes:

Mm-hmm.

Eric:

probably the best. I mean, it's just so cool. I mean, you have to be great at that. If you're gonna be 130 club speed at five feet, nine, I mean, that guy is so good, so powerful. And I think that was a great, so if you are someone that thinks you swing too fast, here's an actionable takeaway. Start saying some syllables in your swing. Right. What I have found with the help of Rob fails and some of the study that he's done with, um. You know, on this is that when you get the, when you get this right, your contact improves, like dramatically and to the point where I would say one of the largest drivers of good contact in the swing is actually rhythm. And we wouldn't think of it that way. A lot of times we think of it, oh, it's my left arm bending, or I'm moving on the ball, or I'm, you know, uh, uh, whatever it is, right? All this stuff, all the swing stuff, no.

Rob Failes:

are you swinging freely? Is the club actually swinging? Right?

Eric:

Correct, correct. So.

Rob Failes:

you can knock that domino over so many other dominoes from the skill standpoint start to kind of fall in line.

Eric:

And I know you and I are not big swing trainer people, but I, I do think the orange Whip does a very good job of feeling this for a lot of people. So that is something, if you have an orange whip, you can really train the rhythm of your swing for sure. Um, but speed, which I guess people referring to as two fast, it's like you were saying, it's just the club. What, what it's measured right before impact and, and you can get a lot of speed from one syllables and two syllables and three syllables and, you know, and that, that, you know,

Rob Failes:

as far as

Eric:

again, John Rum is a one, he's a boom, boom. Nick Price was a one boom boom. Like, and they were, they smashed it. Right? Um, and then, then you got Freddie Couples who's long, one of the longest of all time. There's clearly a three, maybe even more than that. I don't know. I haven't really looked at Freddie, but I mean, it's, VJ Sync would be that way too.

Rob Failes:

totally, like, I recommend just exploring it, right. I, I would not try to change the syllables. To try to change anything like ball flight wise, like that's not why you're doing it. You're doing it because, okay, a certain tempo, at a certain amount of, of time, certain syllable count, it feels freer to you. It feels

Eric:

mm-hmm.

Rob Failes:

would want to do that for 18 holes or 36 holes, and you feel like you could do it more consistently without getting tired or without it changing much. Right. That's why you're doing it, because it doesn't really matter. ball doesn't know what syllable count you are. The ball knows where the bottom of the swing goes in space, the face, and the speed, right? You're gonna layer skill on top of that stuff.

Eric:

Yeah.

Rob Failes:

the one that feels the freest to you, the one that feels the most, like you're getting the most bang for your buck, like for the, for what you're putting into it. You're getting the most out of it, essentially.

Eric:

Awesome. Awesome advice there, Rob. Swell. Anything else you wanted to add today? Anything interesting?

Rob Failes:

No, I think, I think we Well, how's your, uh, how are your fantasy teams?

Eric:

Um. You know, Holden Steady, I've traded, I've no, not, no, I've traded all my picks in this year's draft, so I, I don't have anything to, to really look forward to. So I haven't really paid attention to the draft. Um,

Rob Failes:

so

Eric:

which is, which is fine. It is tomorrow. Which, which

Rob Failes:

for our dynasty players.

Eric:

it is. I do have an aim point thing to bring up though. Um, I was talking to my friend who plays. Uh, she's, she, she's playing senior LPGA events and, um, she's, I would say she's easily a top 15 senior female player in the world, um, based on her results. Right? And she learned AimPoint from Brian, your, your buddy last year, right. So this is, she was a great putter on the LPGA tour, like one of the best putters and never learn name point. And we're gonna have her on the pod for sure. I'm just gonna make her come on, she'll do it. Um, she's got really cool things to talk about. So anyway, when you're that good at golf, like you're fun to talk to, right? So she's prepping right now for some big tournaments and she's so good at aim, like her aim point is just. She works on it every day. It is so good. She worked with Mark Sweeney on it at least five times and could never understand it and just didn't get it because she read so well with her eyes at the time then. Then as her eyes had some issues, like she was all in. So what she told me was, she goes, it is. So she goes, I spend half the time reading greens that I used to,

Rob Failes:

Yeah.

Eric:

and she said, it's so much faster. It's not even funny. You know when Aim Point gets all this bad rap, like we all watch Justin Rose at the Masters, take like four minutes to hit a putt right in the playoffs. Like it was

Rob Failes:

Yeah,

Eric:

hard to watch. That was not aim point. I mean, he did some aim point, but he read it with his eyes and he, you know, and then he missed by the way. And so I just wanted to put it out there like they never showed Ludwig Oberg much, but you, there was some like highlight Resy.

Rob Failes:

the best.

Eric:

He is so fast, it's probably 15 seconds. He reads a putt and he hits it.

Rob Failes:

doing aim point, he's

Eric:

He's doing the writing

Rob Failes:

aim point.

Eric:

correct. So if you wanna know what Aim point is, watch Ludwig Oberg because he does it exactly right every time, step by step. Perfect. And he reads a, he reads a green and puts, I mean, it's within 20 seconds, I would say. It is so fast.

Rob Failes:

is glorious.

Eric:

It is so fun to watch. And that's the way I've been putting.

Rob Failes:

Mm-hmm.

Eric:

he's, he's moving up my board fast. I mean, that guy's just, he's a cyborg man. Like, he's so cool and he just, he's meant for golf. But I was asking her how many women she thought like that play in the senior US open stuff, you know?'cause she's playing against Annika and Julia concert's, like that group. Right. Um, she said there's probably five total that she could figure that are doing it. Isn't that interesting? I think it's just like.

Rob Failes:

yeah, they just. Yeah.

Eric:

But she's so in, it's so cool to talk to her about it.'cause she's like,

Rob Failes:

Yeah,

Eric:

and she could punt. So what? You watch her read green and it's like really, really cool. So anyway, I just thought I'd bring that up. Like I had someone today and I just love aim points, so I'm just bringing it up again. Um, a new golfer that was learning it and they're just like first putting lesson and the fact that he could have an idea of what the putt was supposed to do. And then judge himself off of it just made it so much fun for him and he got better so fast. It was crazy.

Rob Failes:

Yep,

Eric:

like, I've tried to practice putting multiple times in the last year and a half, and he spent a, he said, I spent like five or 10 minutes. I don't know what I'm doing, so I just leave. Right. He never had any way to. And he had drills to do. I mean, I've given him drills stuff like, but you know, like, but he would do it and he'd say, I just hid it. It was like I was hitting it into the ocean. I had no idea what I was doing. And so all of a sudden, once you can read and then have yourself to judge yourself off too, it was really, really cool. So anyway, I just thought I'd add that into the end. It's just one of those topics you and I talk about a lot and um,

Rob Failes:

Yeah,

Eric:

a huge proponent of it.

Rob Failes:

I don't know how to teach putting or green reading without it. Honestly.

Eric:

And the whole push to like

Rob Failes:

Hey, hey Rob, like, can you teach me how to read greens? And I'm not gonna do any point. I'm gonna be like, uh.

Eric:

the old dump, the water cup on the green.

Rob Failes:

I

Eric:

take a,

Rob Failes:

I'm, I don't think I'm gonna, I just might not do it. I'll just be like, sorry,

Eric:

I don't, I don't know what I would say because it feels so disingenuous at this point. You know?

Rob Failes:

yeah, exactly. Yeah. Agreed.

Eric:

So anyway, that is our show for today. We thank you for tuning in. Rob fails. Thank you as always for joining me. Um, it's fun for us. We do this as a hobby. We're just glad y'all tune in, listen to what we have to say from time to time. It's like pretty fun. Send us a message if you'd like, like send us an email, the golf intervention gmail.com. Let us know what you think of the show. Find us on substack at the golf intervention.substack.com. Don't look for golf tips from us'cause we don't do'em. So don't look for'em. Ain't happening. We put some content on Substack, but at the end of the day, I think you know why we don't put put golf tips out there. But we appreciate you tuning in. We hope you have a great week. We hope your golf season's off to a great start. Anything else you'd like to add here, Ron

Rob Failes:

Oh, enjoy the, uh, the better weather. Everyone.

Eric:

and NFL draft tomorrow, we'll get an update on the next episode.

Rob Failes:

Where's Genty going?

Eric:

Hi. Hi. He's going. Hi.

Rob Failes:

Top 10. You think he's going top 10?

Eric:

I would take him. He's that good. We'll see.

Rob Failes:

the Bears are gonna, I think the bears are gonna trade up and get'em. my, that's

Eric:

Wow. What a prediction.

Rob Failes:

They're gonna get'em, they're gonna get'em at like six or six, five or six maybe.

Eric:

I guess we'll see generational talent. Alright. Thank you all

Rob Failes:

right.

Eric:

next time on the golf intervention. Take care.

Rob Failes:

Cheers.

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Eric Layton

Host
Contributor

Rob Failes

Host