A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Episode 10: What Makes a Great Leader?

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Amanda Gilbert • Season 1 • Episode 10

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This week, we are joined by a special guest - Learning and Development guru Amanda Gilbert, to start a series of podcasts discussing the topic of leadership. It will have practical and insightful leadership tips (thanks to Amanda), delivered with a slice of humour and always aiming to help you improve your performance and enjoyment at work. 

When we talk "leadership", we mean leaders at every level in an organisation, including those leading teams, projects, or simply leading the way in performance and behaviours. There will be something for everyone.

If you've got any suggestions for aspects of leadership we should explore, questions or comments, drop us a message at James@ajobdonewell.com or Jimmy@ajobdonewell.com

James:

hello, I'm James.

Jimmy:

Hi, I'm Jimmy.

James:

Welcome to A Job Done Well,

Jimmy:

the podcast about the world of work and how to improve the daily grind Hi James, how's life with you at the moment?

James:

not very good at all. I have just got my credit card statement after Christmas. I'm definitely older, fatter and poorer, but just one of you? Yeah,

Jimmy:

about you? Yeah, I I suffered the same fates over Christmas as you. It's just an expensive time of year, isn't it? But yeah, the thing for me this week has been my claim with Zurich rumbles on. It's now, into its second year and, They continue to spend more money than fixing the claim would have cost them and pissing me off no end. But this week they they sent somebody around who was, not really qualified to do the job they realised really quickly, as did I and so, it's one of those situations where you have to be careful you don't take out your anger with the company on the individuals that have worked for them who have done

James:

it's a bit like why. You should be very careful when you send your food back in a restaurant. Definitely.

Jimmy:

a restaurant. Definitely yeah, I've heard a few stories about what they do behind the scenes anyhow, we wanted to do an episode on leadership, but then we realised that the subject wasn't Something that you can fit into a 20 minute episode, no matter how great we think we are. And we realized that actually we could do a series of, of podcasts around different aspects of leadership. We're doing it because we think that leadership is key to both performance and enjoyment work, which is what this podcast is all about. We think there's loads of material and stuff out there on leadership, but a lot of it isn't that useful. So we're hoping that this will be easy to access and Very pragmatic so you'll be able to take some stuff from it straight into your leadership experience and we just think it's an interesting topic really. We are going to have regular guests, including today we have our resident learning and development guru, Amanda Gilbert. Amanda, welcome.

Amanda:

Nice to be here. It's

Jimmy:

it's uh, well, it's to honor to have a voice of reason amongst

James:

you'll be playing to our limited capability, so we're going to make you look very good today, Amanda.

Amanda:

Excellent.

Jimmy:

So, Amanda, tell us why we have invited you to fill that capability gap that James and I have.

Amanda:

actually sure the answer why you have, but I'm delighted that you have. So I have had the privilege of working in learning and development for far too many years, I care to recall. Helping leaders and people within businesses to develop their skills I'm working independently now, it's a dream I've always had to set up as a learning and development consultant. And then I'm way back in the annals of time. I worked in a leadership role within a sales services environment. So I feel like I've covered the, you know, the hard yards in terms of actually doing the job for real, and then actually helping others to learn to do the job themselves.

Jimmy:

And, we three used to work together back in the day in Capital One and James and I thought that, you'd bring fantastic energy and insights to the subject. Hence, we're very lucky to have you on.

Amanda:

I appreciate that.

Jimmy:

We also want to make this a discussion because everyone has a view on, on leadership. So if you've got input, feel free to share it, mail it over to us, send us a voice note, or you can volunteer to be a guest sometime if you'd like

James:

Host of models about that. Now there are a whole host Now there are a whole host of models about what a good leader is like. My favorite, I'm going to start with mine because I am in control of the microphone, is there is a chap called Julian Berkenshaw who is a professor at the London Business School. And he was very interested in what made a, a good boss. And he went round and he asked a load of people. And he came back with four things. And they were, number one, direction. So, are you clear about where you're going? And if you change your mind about where you're going, have you explained why? Number two, space. Do you give people the space to do their jobs properly? Number three, support. When people need help, do you provide it? And number four, praise. So, you know, thanking people for a job well done. And I sort of thought about that, and I thought, well that makes a lot of sense to me. So there you go, that's the, that's my model, I'm sticking with that one. Anybody else?

Amanda:

Well. In doing the work that I've done over the years, I've come across, tons of models, but one that sticks with me particularly well is the Coos and Posner, model called the Leadership Challenge.

James:

Is that a book you've got there? And what's the book called?

Amanda:

The book is called Leadership Challenge.

James:

Yeah, very good. Yeah. Yeah, I can remember that..

Amanda:

And the model essentially has Several components, a bit like you were describing. So one leadership behavior, challenging the process. it's all about searching for opportunities, looking to change the status quo, so continuous improvement. This one sounds a bit lofty. But inspiring a shared vision. So essentially what's the future? What might it look like? What's the I ideal? working towards.

James:

Yeah, and we do, sorry, it's cross here, but we do bang on about purpose and awful lot and I think that's exactly the same thing.

Amanda:

Exactly right, that was the connection I was making as I was listening to you previously. But actually it also applies to people who might be leading a project, getting really, really clear about what we're doing in this project as well as senior leaders in organizations who maybe are sharing the strategy for the organization. Enabling others to act. So, how do you foster a culture of collaboration, helping people to cooperate around the goals and instilling mutual trust? So a lot there about the environment in which others are working. Yeah. Modeling the way, arguably one of the most important, I would say, although I dare say these gurus would say they're all important, but setting the example, doing what you say you will do, and sticking to that. Showing that you're prepared to drink your own champagne, And encouraging the heart. So that's about recognizing contributions. When people are behaving the way you need them to behave, want them to behave, that you're actually making sure that your rewards

James:

It's an American book. It is an American book, isn't it? When I was working for you, Jimmy, you should encourage my heart more.

Amanda:

It's about celebrating contribution.

Jimmy:

Yes, I always wanted to celebrate the contribution of James's heart.

James:

of James's heart. Very good. But interestingly, same general principle, isn't it? So I think there's an element of, this is a well known subject, you can, lots of different models, but it is a little bit pick your poison, choose one and get on with it. Yeah,

Jimmy:

I think you're right. I'm not a great one for models as such. while we're thinking about great leaders, let's hear from some other people. That we've got to contribute towards the podcast on their views around what makes a great leader.

Guest:

Um, I need to give you the space to do your thing, give you the support when you need it, the direction and let you get on with your A great leader is someone who has a clear, inspiring vision for the future, effectively conveying ideas, encouraging a test and learn culture, and listening to others. They can make informed and timely decisions, even in uncertainty.

Great leadership provides direction, the right environment for success, it's inspiring and galvanising and recognises the power of inclusion and diversity. It's authentic and it's honest.

Jimmy:

Hearing from others. What about our views? Amanda, what's your view on what makes a great leader?

Amanda:

great leader? I think for me personally, it's very tied into purpose and clarity around what's needed. Actually getting really clear about the direction that we're taking is thing one. And balancing that with taking people on the journey with you. And I mean over and over. Really investing in making sure people understand why, so to your point earlier, James, that purpose. But actually reinforcing that over and over again and then, understanding the people, so who is contributing to the work. How are they leading and driving that work?

James:

That's really interesting, I was listening to podcast this morning actually, they talked about taking people on the journey, but they were very negative about the phrase, and they, the point they were trying to make was, well, when you're taking people on the journey, Most people when they mean that, say that it's just about killing with PowerPoint and the phrase that sticks in my mind is when there's a journey, are you on the steamroller or are you the pavement? And so I think you're absolutely right, but it's how you do it is a really important thing.

Amanda:

Do you know what? I think that's true of all aspects of leadership behavior. So words on a page or phrases to describe a one thing, but how you do it. The secret is always in how you do it. So the journey, okay, we can all get that. What this is about for me is connecting to the individual. contributing and driving the forward.

James:

But doing it with people rather than doing it to people.

Amanda:

Absolutely. Perfectly summed up.

Jimmy:

as that. Somebody

James:

it's rather, it's not nearly as deep as that. Somebody once said to me, a good boss is like an umbrella. If you've got a good boss you know it's raining, but you're not getting wet. for me, it's just a nice little analogy.

Amanda:

I love that.

Jimmy:

When you worked for me, James, I used to have a big fucking umbrella. It was like a golf umbrella, to protect everyone from the rain that you created. Guess my view is Very similar but it was always somebody who I wanted to follow. their values and behaved somebody who I felt that I could learn from somebody that I enjoyed working with, and I think somebody who cared about both the work that we were doing, but also doing it. The other thing for me is I didn't learn from models. and theories.`Mine/......................................................................./,; was much more practical. So I always believe that I had to be, a learning leader, I can always learn, I can always do better, and I can always be on the lookout for different ways of behaving depending on the situation you're in.

James:

I think that's really interesting, so I'm lucky enough to work for a number of, yeah, quite good organizations. But I think there is very little particularly when you're in your early career. People aren't taught how to lead and to manage, they're just, it's not something that's done in organisations. There's a lot of chat about it, but what I think most of what I picked up was from watching other people and people I thought were really good and people I thought weren't so good. So it really is about observation, as you say, testing stuff out yourself.

Amanda:

one of the best ways to And actually, this reminds me of an exercise that we used to do in one the training programs that we would deliver. And it was exactly this question. What makes a great leader? We would send people off and have them have exactly the conversation Consistently, people would say pretty much the same things. And in particular, had my back, believed in me, encouraged me to do more. Which I think we've heard in various forms through the world.

James:

Yeah, I'm a big believer though in learning from failure. So here's my question. What makes a poor leader? Who are some of the worst people you've worked for? And how have they shown up?

Jimmy:

I think that some of the worst leaders that I've worked for create the wrong sort of environment. And you just don't enjoy working for them.

James:

by a thousand cuts. So I work for somebody who wants a small thing. But whenever he went to talk her, she'd sit there staring at her computer doing her emails. It didn't matter what you were talking about. Ava just became very clear that getting on top of her emails was her number one priority, and it was much more important than you were. Now it's a small thing, but it's what you sow in this world. Where do you think that's going to take you?

Jimmy:

I think it's it's an interesting point, whether you look at the great leadership side of it or, what poor leadership is for me, it is about creating that overall working environment. that we operate within, isn't it? And making sure that environment is one where people can be successful and do their best work.

Amanda:

think, What I would encourage from all leaders is that it's being accurate about that environment as well. So in your head, you might have it exactly right. So you're controlling leader or the leader not very interested. probably didn't think she wasn't listening to you. Yet all the signals she was giving you were, I'm not listening, I don't care what you're doing. So how do you get regular feedback as a leader? And great if people are saying amazing things about you, but actually how do you mine for and create the environment where you can actually discover whether the environment truly is working for people. And if it isn't, is there some shift that you need to make in your leadership too?

Jimmy:

I think if we think about that overall working environment, it does have two parts to it really. There's the, hard mechanical infrastructure parts of it. And there are the people behavioral relationship sides. Yeah, absolutely. And

James:

Yeah, absolutely. And I actually think that a lot of what organizations do, they forget there's a human in the machine. So they'll have lots of really rigid processes and structures and systems and ways of doing things, but they don't realize that they're dealing with emotional, irrational people You really need to see how you get those two things to mesh together.

Amanda:

So, both, I'm curious about something. As a leadership coach, tell me something about how you see your personal leadership style.

James:

Oh, what, me? Yeah. Yeah, well, I was pretty good, I think. Yeah, I tell you, in 33 years, I've had three people tell me I was a good boss. Wow. That's one person every 11 years. No, so really, what do think? It's really difficult. So I have had Yeah, but I had to have people say really nice things to me. So on one occasion, somebody said to me that I created an environment where I helped people do their best work, which I think is great. But then on the other side of the coin one of the guys I used to work with, he said to me, I asked him where some presentation was. He said, I haven't done it yet. He says, well, why haven't you done it yet? He said, well, because I knew you were going to correct it when I gave it to you. So I didn't bother. And you go, oh my God, am I really that bad? But for me, I think the point in all of that is it's really quite difficult to know yourself and actually standing out there and getting, or going out there and getting some feedback about, well, what do I do well, what do I do badly? It might be emotionally difficult to do, but I think it's really powerful.

Amanda:

Yeah, I agree. Jimmy, tell me, what's your leadership style?

Jimmy:

think I think similar to, to James, you could talk to the people that I've had in my teams over the

James:

Yeah, here we go. I've got some feedback for you. It's now the moment. Funny enough, feedback's

Jimmy:

enough, you say feedback is a gift. It's not one on one from you

Scarlett 2i2 USB-11:

you know,

Jimmy:

your leadership style does evolve so much over the years. I think that If you talk to people from back from when we worked together, they would describe my leadership style in a certain way. Over time, it did mature. And back to what I was saying about what makes a great leader, I tried to be somebody who people could follow and who people would want to work for and would believe in. When you were setting a direction, they'd want to go towards that direction and on that journey with you. Equally, although it may not have shown up to people a lot of the time, I did always have the humility to know that I could be better at what I was doing. So I made plenty of mistakes. I do think that as a leader, you're never the finished article, and you can always learn.

James:

You just never really entirely sure how you show up to other people. the thought that occurred to me is we used to be in a management team and you know, we had a good crack. It was a good banter and we had a lot of fun and we'd always be telling jokes and having a laugh. And if you were on the inside, that was great. However, there were people who had the joy of working for us, who found that really quite threatening and really didn't like it at all.

Jimmy:

No, it's

James:

Yeah, so I suppose it comes back to that point, get the feedback,

Jimmy:

An interesting question that often gets people confused, which is what's the difference between leadership and management? Any thoughts guys on on that?

James:

ah, I've got lots of thoughts on that. So I worked for an organization for a while and they changed everybody's job title. So people stopped being managers and they all became leaders. aNd all I can say about it was that I imagine it just cost a small fortune in business cards. nobody changed their behavior. But it was a bit as if by automatically telling somebody they were a leader instead of a manager, they were going to behave differently. I mean, what a load of old baloney.

Amanda:

the distinction is really important, and the expectations are important in both capacities. So if you are just going to call people. Suddenly, one day, leaders, expecting behavioural change, then actually, it's all going to fall apart, right? Because you haven't yet set clarity in terms of what you mean behaviourally around that.

James:

I don't necessarily want a leader. And I don't necessarily want a manager. What I want is a good boss. What's really important is that you show up as both of those things.

Jimmy:

and for me the distinction is that the Leadership relates to the people side of things and how you set direction and how you motivate and inspire people and it applies across the board, whereas management I think relates more to how you manage and control the work that people are doing. But I agree, James, if you looked across our working environment, you do need both. Yeah, a lot

James:

a lot of I think in some ways leadership's overplayed, I'll be honest with you because it's importance, but it doesn't just come from the top. Everybody needs to show it, but management is equally important, I think that's me off the fence.

Jimmy:

it's equally that more important. No, important.

James:

important. No, said equally important. No, I

Jimmy:

It's we're going

Amanda:

it's all about the people.

James:

It's a bit like that scene from the Daleks, isn't it? You know, thank me to your leader. I mean, really.

Amanda:

I think we're violently agreeing, actually, though, that both are actually essential components, and it's worth making that distinction. There is a different set of expectation, but

James:

so I think it's probably just worth going again, because I do think it's important. So there is a view that leaders sit at the top of the organization, managers and supervisors sit at the bottom of the organization, and I really don't think that's case at all.

Jimmy:

I think I think you're right. James. Leaders can be at any level in the organization. As we touched the outset, you know, leaders can be, you know, first line leaders. It can be project leaders. People even in, frontline hours where they have no direct reports because that's the other thing that other definition that gets bandied around is, you know, direct reports. Even if you haven't got direct ports, you can still be a leader. You still have to show leadership. And some of the things that we talk about will absolutely apply to people at every level within an organization. Same as your point, management is thought about people at the bottom of the organization managing their work. At the top of the organization, you need to be equally adept at how you're going to manage the overall work that the organization has.

James:

Yeah, I used to work my sins in a factory in Slough. I remember one of the guys coming up to me once and saying, the thing you need to remember James is you can't do enough for a good governor. So it isn't about either. It is about, yeah, just being a good boss. I think is the important thing.

Amanda:

But the point being a non hierarchical concept here. We're not translating leadership to mean your CEO or the executive team. We're talking about everyone equally at every level,

Jimmy:

Oh, you're right, psychopaths. Anyhow, What, what do you think gets in the way of being a great leader?

James:

leader? one of the things is we tend to promote people based on their technical skills. And there is just this thinking that you have to be really good at what you do to be the next rung up the ladder. But of course that's not about leadership at all, that's great if you want to escalate something, but that can really get in the way because if you've got really good technical skills then you think your job is to check people and make sure they're doing the right job all the time, and that really isn't leadership at all.

Jimmy:

I think you see that in so many organizations. good example, legal firms it's all about what you know about the law. But when you get into the position where you're leading large swathes of the organization, you can be a great lawyer, but if you haven't got the leadership skills, you're not going to be effective.

Amanda:

So I would add, then, a lack development to that list. So really, really important. And I think we've already talked about this before, but not just in training courses or formal classes. In fact, arguably, you know, 80 percent of that gets forgotten as soon as you walk out the door. But actually that day to day, what am I learning? How am I reflecting on my performance? What impact am I having?

Jimmy:

I think that that learning piece is hugely important And this does become a little bit of a hierarchical thing. Often, the more senior people get, the more they think they know the answers to everything, including they're the perfect leader.

James:

Oh yeah, there's a huge amount of arrogance in leadership, I think,

Scarlett 2i2 USB-9:

This is James you're talking

Scarlett 2i2 USB-8:

Let's say, yes. You haven't worked for some of the clowns I've worked for.

Jimmy:

But I also think that back to the point we made earlier about working for some great leaders and seeing what good looks like if you don't know what good looks like, you don't know what good leadership is all about.

Amanda:

of all levels, have this ought to, think, if belief in their head. I'm the boss. I'm the boss. I should have the answer. I'm the boss. I should know how to do this. Actually the most humble of leaders are the ones that come from the position which is I don't know. Tell me. Hey, what's going on for you? What's it like to be at the front line? What's it like to be handling these questions, customer inquiries, or the ones that will actually share a problem they're working on and collect wisdom from others?

James:

Oh, yeah. Because, yeah, if you think you know everything, you're sadly mistaken.

Amanda:

You're already, yeah, wrong, right?

James:

And then there's another thing, let's just pile on a little bit more, but there's also the system that you're working in, because in some organisations you've got a whole host of policies and procedures and the way you must do something, and is rigidly enforcing the expenses system for somebody who's got home after midnight at night, leadership, right, it's following the process, yeah, but the system that you're working in can really get in the way.

Jimmy:

Leaders are there to create a working environment that enables people to do their best work, whether that is the mechanistic side of the system or the people side of. iN summary,, this leadership series will be about all aspects of leadership. Which we see as being hugely important to helping people do, do their best work.

James:

I'd go for leadership is important, but it's not the be all and end all. You also need some management in there.

Amanda:

That leadership is a capability. This one excites me massively, can be developed, but often people don't, don't spend enough time on developing

Jimmy:

leader is responsible for creating an overall environment. that people work in that enables them to do the best work and that environment will have both mechanical aspects of it, systems, processes, policies, and people aspects of it, culture, relationships, all that sort of stuff.

James:

you can't be a good leader if you're a perfect technocrat. You need to understand how people

Jimmy:

Is a hugely complex and exciting subject, but it really does underpin what this podcast is all about which is Helping people do their best work, improve their performance, and enjoy the work they're doing. So, if you've liked today's episode, then share the podcast. And

James:

Yeah, and thank you for sitting next to me, Amanda. Not many people do

Jimmy:

Yeah, hopefully we've been well enough behaved that you'll come back again and add more of your wisdom to the to the future leadership

Amanda:

Really enjoyed it. Cheers now. Thanks

James:

man. Thanks everyone.

Amanda:

Bye.

Jimmy:

If you'd like to find out more about how James and I can help your business, then have a look at our website at ajobdonewell.Com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Amanda Gilbert

Guest