A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Episode 19: Are You a Curious Leader (Or Just Plain Odd)?

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Amanda Gilbert • Season 1 • Episode 19

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This week, our resident Learning and Development Guru, Amanda Gilbert, joins us again for the third episode in our Leadership series. We explore the subject of Curious Leadership (and we don't mean odd!)
 
 We conclude that this is a practical part of any leader's toolkit. It can have a positive impact if used correctly and at the right time. We share a helpful model to understand and assess your own levels of curiosity, some of the upsides and downsides to this approach, and, most importantly, how you can become more curious.
 
 If you need any help exploring or developing your personal or your team's curiosity, then get in touch at Jimmy@ajobdonewell.com or James@ajobdonewell.com 

James:

hello, I'm James.

Jimmy:

Hi, I'm Jimmy.

James:

Welcome to A Job Done Well,

Jimmy:

the podcast about the world of work and how to improve the daily grind

James:

Right, good morning. How you doing?

Jimmy (2):

Good morning.

James (2):

good morning Amanda. Hi. Nice to have you back with us.

Amanda:

much.

Jimmy (2):

So today's episode,

James (2):

on. What are

Jimmy (2):

is the third in our leadership series. Today we're talking about the curious leader. We're going to be exploring this underused but very powerful leadership style. So we're going to cover off what do we mean by it? How do we define what a curious leader is? And give our experience and capability in this style. Some practical

James (2):

got some capability being curious, have you?

Jimmy (2):

I was once.

James (2):

Yeah. The this style. Did it hurt your head?

Jimmy (2):

The pros and cons of this style. And most importantly, Amanda's going to help us work out how you can develop it. So, welcome back Amanda, our resident L& D guru. What have you been up to since last time you were on here?

Amanda:

Thank you. Well, I had a few days away with the girls. nice have a little trip to the Canary Islands.

James:

I'd like to point out, I specifically asked, but I wasn't invited on this trip.

Amanda:

Girls only, I'm afraid. I'm so sorry. Which was good fun. Some sunshine as well, which was

Jimmy (2):

was marvellous.

Amanda:

Last week I was doing some self development. So I actually had the pleasure of going along and being a delegate in some training too. Which was, it's always fascinating to listen to the content and just to see how other people do

Jimmy (2):

So even though you're a resident L& D guru, you're still learning?

Amanda:

Still learning. We should all still be learning. We'll talk more about that in a bit, in curiosity. What have you been up to, James?

James:

What have I been up to? Mostly I have been watching Somme develop in my backyard. Because then, as I said, we've got, it's a big ground, but landscape gardens around. It does sound

Jimmy (2):

of little grounds. Very, very middle class, James. It's a big house.

James (2):

Chatsworth. Chatsworth. Yeah, I'd like to say it's like Chatsworth House where I live, but it's not strictly true. But yeah, it's just, I'm learning about mud at the moment. That's what I'm learning about. How about. you?

Jimmy (2):

learning about them at the moment, that's what I'm learning Service in general, wherever you go, whether it's your insurer, your bank, on trains, every day you experience port and I would argue worsening

James (2):

That's a great generalization there, mate.

Jimmy (2):

Massive Everyone, every

James:

The country's going to the dogs.

Jimmy (2):

Yes, and we'll explore that on another episode. Anyhow, Amanda, Curious Leader. What do we mean by this? Yeah,

Amanda:

Yeah. Curious leader, do you know when, actually I'm full credit to you both for raising Curious leader and I'm not gonna tell a fib you threw me a little bit'cause it's one of those styles where I thought, heard of a curious leader model before, but actually as we've. So as we dug deeper into this and explored, what we're talking about is that ability of leaders to listen really well, really deeply learn, talking of learning, and being open to new or other possibilities. We're talking about that mindset of seeking first to understand. So for a minute, just pausing yourself and figuring out actually what might I learn before I give my point of view. And then growth mindset, which we talked a little bit about.

James:

Ah, so Carol Dweck and her growth mindset. There's an interesting story about Microsoft there. So apparently when Steve Ballmer left Microsoft as their CEO and was replaced by, Sateo Nadella he was very big into the growth mindset. He wanted Microsoft to be a know it all company rather than an ask it all company. So there you go, there is the potential of the growth mindset and being curious. Having said that, Steve Ballmer, how much was he worth when he left?

Jimmy (2):

He's worth today 121 billion. Wow.

James (2):

Over dollars. Is a B or with an N?

Jimmy (2):

M? Billion with a B. Yeah,

James (2):

Yeah, mind you, it didn't matter that much which one it is,

Jimmy (2):

was going to say, splitting hairs a little bit there, James. But if you do want to find out more about the growth mindset, Carol Dweck's done an amazing TED talk that is well worth 15 minutes of anyone's time.

James (2):

so what's the importance and value of curiosity as a leadership style There? Let me make a start on that. I think that. Really, it's about understanding what is going on in your organization and just unlocking the potential of people who work for you. There is a big belief amongst a lot of senior managers they know everything and that's why they got promoted and the more senior they are the more they know. But in actual fact they might know about the more general things in their organization and But when it comes down to the detail and what's going on, you just can't possibly know. So going out and asking people, I think, is one of the best ways of finding out opportunities. And then the second thing I think it's got going for it is, just people respond really well when you ask them what their opinion is. I remember once I was in a contact center and we had some consultants in. And they went round and they were talking to the guys on the floor. And then afterwards I followed around to see how it had gone. And this girl said to me, oh, it's fantastic. It's so nice to be asked my opinion Yeah, she's been working there for 15 years and nobody ever asked her what she thought before So there you go. That's why I think it is important

Jimmy (2):

that comes back, James, to your point about unlocking the potential of many. I mean, you've got thousands of people sometimes working in organisations, and all the ideas come from the exec team. If you do that, you're on to a hiding to nothing, because you're missing the ideas of the thousands of people who are closer to the work than you are. But that's how a lot of companies work.

James (2):

Yeah. You don't want them leaving their brains on the shelf as they come into work. Do you really want to know what they think? And then the final thing, which actually was something you showed me, Amanda, or told me, and this is going back a little bit. About 15 years ago, we worked and we pulled together a training course and I had to go out and I had to run this training course. It's really tough when you're standing up in a training course. You think, well, what happens if they ask me this question? What happens if they ask me that question? I need to know all the answers. And you said to me, no, you don't need to know, James. If you get asked an awkward question, just turn it back on the audience and say, right then, well, that's the question. What do you guys think? And it's amazing. It takes you out to all sorts of awkward places. Yeah, it's far less stressful. You don't have to know everything and somebody will always give you an opinion.

Amanda:

Really powerful question. What do you think? Tell me what's on your mind.

Jimmy (2):

So I think it helps in terms of building relationships, understanding, and finding the best opportunities to drive improvements in performance.

James (2):

Go on then, Amanda. Give us a definition. How would you describe Curiosity?

Amanda:

Well, so again a little bit of research on this one revealed that in fact there is a curiosity assessment, it's called, the Five Dimensional Curiosity Scale, or shortened to 5DC. Designed to measure various aspects of curiosity and various dimensions of curiosity, which I don't think I'd actually considered

Jimmy (2):

No, I think, I think it was quite interesting because you sent it to us and we had a go at it, which we'll come back to. But just the fact that there are different types of curiosity in different situations wasn't, I assumed it was one thing, but clearly

Amanda:

Yeah, clearly not. So we find at the beginning well the first one on the list that I have here, Joyous Exploration. Oh, I do like a bit of Joyous Exploration. Joyous Exploration. I can't hold myself back. All about viewing challenging situations as opportunities for growth and learning. These people actively seek out experiences that challenge their existing beliefs and enjoy learning about unfamiliar subjects for the sake of learning.

James:

Okay, there's the first one. What else have we got?

Amanda:

Yeah, what else we have? Deprivation sensitivity. I was curious about this one for myself actually. So this dimension about the, an intense desire to solve difficult conceptual problems. People high in deprivation sensitivity may lose sleep over unresolved problems, take over relentlessly working to actually find or deliver find or discover the solutions.

James:

Yeah. So I think we're struggling a wee bit from business jargon on this this question. Yes. What is deprivation sensitivity?

Jimmy (2):

I was curious, James, as to how come we've got through two dimensions. And you haven't asked the question of is this an American

James (2):

question. This is American, though, isn't it? Because it clearly is. It clearly is. But deprivation sensitivity, so needing to know the answer

Amanda:

exactly that. Uh, Stress tolerance. So, this one is about how individuals handle uncertainty or stress associated with new experiences. So, if you have a low stress tolerance. You might avoid seeking out novel situations due to doubt or lack of confidence. Social curiosity., which is all about interest in understanding other people. So people high in social curiosity, enjoy learning about other people's habits, behaviors, and motivations. and actively listen to conversations, that sounded a bit nosy to me actually to seek out and comprehend social dynamics.

Jimmy (2):

In my career I was nicknamed Mr Gossip because I

James (2):

nosy.

Jimmy (2):

nosy. So I was higher on social

James (2):

Yeah, I can imagine.

Jimmy (2):

I just wanted to know everyone else's business.

Amanda:

the final one being thrill seeking. So thrill seekers thrive on excitement and novelty. They find risk taking exhilarating and prefer unpredictable adventures.

James:

Like bungee jumping. I have bungee jumped. Have you? Once. It's above a field in Northamptonshire and I'm never doing it again. You can't be a special type of stupid to tie yourself to a rope and jump. Anyway, how did we score them? So I took the assessment. It was not actually a surprise to me that social curiosity came out for me as a motive. You sound a little bit sarcastic. Came out as my motivational, I don't think we should call it strength in this, but certainly a driver for my curiosity would be that social curiosity, what makes people tick. I

Jimmy (2):

this assessment, Amanda, is it available online? Can people go and do this?

Amanda:

It is available online, We'll put a link in

Jimmy (2):

Yeah, I mean, my scores were quite mixed. So I was very high on, again, social curiosity. As I say, I'm in people's business and thrill seeking. So I like new, novel things. But on some of the other ones, I was quite low. So the, curiosity to solve a problem, conceptual problems, that was not me. And I guess what I took away from it was that, I can either play to my strengths, in other words, do things anew, things that involve people. That's where I will be most curious. Or, I can try and learn to do some of the things I'm scored less highly on in terms of curiosity, like solving problems and, that's not really, I'd rather play to my strengths than do some of the stuff that I'm not so good at. Yeah. What about you, James?

James (2):

James? Ah, well, I was perfect on every dimension. Of course you were. I was,

Jimmy (2):

you are a very, I've heard it said many times, James Lordley is a very curious person.

James (2):

I think you said it. Yeah, alright, alright, alright. So, so I, I was average on everything. I was neither high, nor low. I was average on everything. What do you make of that? What do I make of that?

Jimmy (2):

piss taking aside, I think, You are generally a curious person. You do ask questions, you do like to learn and you do like to explore stuff.

James (2):

explore stuff. Maybe, I don't know. Is it average to be average on everything? There's a question. Or balanced, I think. Balanced is the word I was looking for. Yeah, balanced.

Jimmy (2):

balanced. Or boring and average. Yeah,

James (2):

alright, let's move on. Go on then. We've talked about being curious and it being a good thing, but are there any barriers to that? I

Jimmy (2):

I think there are in organisations because I think in order to be curious, you need You, do have to explore and you get into testing and exploring and the fear of failure that most organizations really have. they don't want people to try and get things wrong, despite what people often say. There is a real fear of failure in individuals as well. I, I worry that I might be judged for not knowing the answers, you know, if I, if I'm always asking questions. I

James (2):

I think it depends on the organization you're working for as well. I mean, we all worked for a bank for a while who prided themselves on being very analytically curious. But if you're working in a nuclear power plant, you probably don't want people to be trying things all the time. So, it really does depend on the organization you're in. It

Jimmy (2):

It does, and I think there's also another dimension that I experienced on this was, was cultural as well. I did a, a course once We were talking to, you know, people from different countries and there was a guy who was a Russian delegate. And we were talking about curiosity and leaders. And he was saying, God, if you were like that in Russia, if you ask questions of your team, he said, he said, they,

James (2):

Politically, it's not great to be asking questions in Russia.

Jimmy (2):

No, but, but he was saying that, if you seek the views of your team, they will see you as weak. They will not follow you. You won't last in and and actually I know it's an extreme example, but there is a cultural dimension to

James (2):

people do like to have strong leaders who know the answers. So when you, not just Russia, you see that in a lot of different countries.

Jimmy (2):

that can be as we know a very dangerous game

James (2):

also there

Jimmy (2):

I think also there is a time factor in this as well. I think organizations often want progress and results really quickly. And it can be perceived that, to be curious and ask questions and explore and seek first to understand that can take longer than just getting off and doing something straight away.

James (2):

Yeah. Although I do come back to my Mr. Average score on everything, I do think that it's better to be, I've worked for a number of organizations where the way to get promoted was to do the job and know the job and understand everything about the job and then you get promoted and and the problem with that is that people in those roles, they've only ever seen one thing. And nothing new ever happens. There is no innovation. There is no, well, no curiosity. It's frowned upon. So it, you know, on the whole, I think the right level of curiosity is a good thing.

Jimmy (2):

think when you are constantly promoted for your knowledge, that doesn't drive you to be a curious leader, does it?

Amanda:

There's risk that that looks like you don't know what you're talking Well, yeah, nobody wants to look like they don't know what they're talking

Jimmy (2):

know, it's never stopped you,

James (2):

never stopped you. And there are, there are other downsides to that. Have you ever been in a meeting where the manager has obviously been told, you know, you need to let, find out what everybody else thinks, and then you tell them what you need to do anyway. So you go round the table and the manager stays, stays quiet until right at the last moment, and, oh,

Jimmy (2):

Oh yeah. That's so demotivational. Just, if you know the answer, and you're not going to be open, and you're not going to be curious, let's just. Just save everyone that time and just tell us what you think.

James (2):

So genuine curiosity is a good thing. But if you're just asking for asking, say, yeah, nightmare. Then the other thing is the whole thing that big process improvement trick, but the five wise, you've heard the five wise indeed. Yeah. Well, what the trick being, if you ask why five times you get to the root of the problem, what I've

Jimmy (2):

your lights

James (2):

well,

Jimmy (2):

if you keep asking people it just does your head in,

James (2):

that's my problem. I'm not very good at asking why. So yeah. Be very careful in the way you ask why.

Jimmy (2):

ask why. It's like your kids, they, kids always ask you questions, always ask

James (2):

Why is the sky blue, Daddy?

Amanda:

Sorry James, I was going to talk about the risk that your team might perceive that you don't trust them. Yeah, yeah,

Jimmy (2):

I definitely, I mean, I've talked about it in the past. I like to be trusted and left to get on with things. I do think that there is a risk when you're questioning, that it doesn't come across as, I'm trying to understand, it comes across as, an interrogation. I

James (2):

I think that really my big sort of systems thing here rather than people, but if you ask why you did something that will elicit you one response, whereas if you ask why the system works that way, that will get you a very different answer. If you can depersonalize it, I think that's a really powerful thing to do.

Amanda:

I think you're pointing to the skill of being a curious leader. So not just simply asking questions, but actually doing so skillfully. What you separated out there was people and therefore the inference of blame versus what's going on in the system or the process. People can talk and contribute to that without fear of threat. Absolutely. So that's

Jimmy (2):

Well, I, I always found that when I was out visiting teams, getting people at their ease, making them feel less threatened, and that was always important for them to open up. But then often them seeing you do something with it. So I've told you something. If they then see action, when you go back next time, they're more likely to tell you something because they think, actually, there's a purpose. If I tell him something, he gets something changed. If you don't ever do anything, you just ask questions, you never do anything to help them. Like, what's in it for them? And

James (2):

And then the final one I've got in terms of downsides is this whole thing of analysis paralysis. So you do see some managers, they'll ask a question and ask a question. They want more data and more data and more data. And some answers are unknowable. The only way to find out is to go and test something. So there does come a point where you just got to stop asking questions and move and see

Jimmy (2):

So I think we talked about some real upsides and strengths of being curious. We've also talked about some barriers and some downsides, but it is definitely a skill and it is one that you use. As you said, James, some of the time it is hugely powerful. There are times when it's not appropriate, but. Let's assume we want to develop that skill, because it's definitely got some huge amounts of power at times. Amanda, give us some ideas about how you can develop curiosity as a skill.

James (2):

Before we answer that question jimmy. We need to have a word from our sponsor

Jimmy (2):

to talk to Stevie

James:

We cover a whole host of topics on this

Jimmy:

Purpose to corporate jargon.

James:

but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well.

Jimmy:

Easier said than done. So, If you've got Unhappy customers or employees Bosses or regulators Breathing down your neck

James:

of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver. So

Jimmy:

Can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organization's. Get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. com

James:

Or james at jobdonewell. com.

James (2):

Amanda, you know, we're, we're

Jimmy (2):

So, Amanda, we're, we're bought into curiosity as being a skill we want to develop. Give us some ideas about how we go about doing that.

Amanda:

Give us some ideas about how we go about doing that. One example would be taking, deliberately taking a different perspective on a familiar topic to see what you can learn. So approaching it as if you've never seen it before. Never been to this meeting before. Never solved a problem like this before. And adopting that beginner's mindset. I

Jimmy (2):

I once went to a meeting and decided I wasn't going to talk as I often did. I was going to look at people's body language just consciously observe it. I'll tell you, it changed my view of what was going on in the room versus what was being said. So yeah. I

Amanda:

said. I love that. Actually, the training that I referenced at the beginning of this that I attended, the, the guy, Jaz from Reach Business Consulting, who was, who was leading that at the very beginning. I love the technique he used, which was to remind us that having an, I know I've been through this before mindset just closes you down to learning. So right at the beginning of the session. He actually tuned us up to adopting a what of don't know mindset for the training. So that also leads me to putting yourself in a situation where you can learn. So go and see other teams or other businesses work and watch how they do things, maybe not even your own industry Go.

James:

For me there's two bits to that. There is actually, there's a mindset, which is I am going to go and learn rather than I know the answer. And then there is putting yourself in the situation, be that call listening or whatever it may be. Reminds me, I am, a long time ago, I was working in a factory and we all used to go to lunch, canteen, you know, chips with everything. But we always used to go and sit with the people that we always used to work with. And one of my bosses said to me, Well, if you go and sit with those guys all the time, you won't learn anything. Go and sit with somebody else. They do say that at Google, actually, they have long tables in their refectories so that people have to sit with other people, which just opens up conversations and

Jimmy (2):

and I have, visited Google's headquarters at Mountain View, and it has the most incredible canteens. Like, it's got, it's a massive canteen, and you've got all different stations where you can get every food you can imagine from around the world. But they do that, and they do have these long tables, you just go and sit down and you sit and chat to whoever's around. But you don't go off campus to go and buy lunch. You know, you don't go to the local sandwich shop. You've got amazing food right there and then. And they do use it as a tool to encourage collaboration, learning from each other, discussing, and innovating. So it's

Amanda:

it's built into the system.

Jimmy (2):

Yeah, it's

James (2):

cool. Like the long tables. Well, and we digress, but I heard another story, I read another story. Oh, it's in the HPI, I think that was it. Chief Executive, he'd been made Chief Executive, was, maybe Carlsberg, one of the breweries anyway. And as he was being made Chief Executive, he was given the key to the lift. And the lift went up to the, whatever it was, sixth floor, and if he used his key, it stopped the lift from stopping anywhere else on the way up or down. And after a while he stopped using the key, because he said, well I never meet anybody, I go straight up to the executive floor, I don't see anybody, and I come straight back down. Didn't learn anything at all.

Jimmy (2):

you as well, Josh, you wanted that key, didn't you? I wanted that key,

James (2):

just locked myself in the lift, go up and down all day. Anyway, moving on, so put yourself in the right situation. Go on, what else?

Amanda:

Couple of other things there. I mean, we might have touched on this as being careful not to overdo this, but actually seeking first to understand. You all know that from Seven Habits. Asking questions, avoid being the first to give an opinion. Thank you. So we talked about that as a

Jimmy (2):

that was don't, don't let everyone have an opinion and then give, tell them the answer. But I think that's different from, if you're the leader and you start off the questions, you start off the comments, you set the tone for everything. Let

James (2):

We, when I was a graduate trainee, we used to have this thing where you'd go, they would send us on these management training courses, they were like, yeah, I don't know, 20 of us all graduates, sitting around one of those big U shaped tables. And we used to have this thing, it was, it was the course. Who was, let's say, idiot. That wasn't the term, but who was the course idiot? And the way you could tell who the first, who the course idiot was, was it was the first one to speak. Because they're obviously so keen on projecting what they thought, they weren't ready to listen to anybody else. I

Jimmy (2):

love the story you guys were telling before about, your journey to work

James (2):

It was all about sensory preferences. I'm a visual person, so I always look at things. And Amanda is a auditory person, so she always listens to things. Right. And Amanda said, well, when you walk into work tomorrow, instead of paying attention with your eyes, pay attention with your ears. And it was just amazing. It was a totally different experience. The things that I hadn't noticed.

Amanda:

next Practice embracing the 10? Yeah in what someone else is saying so deliberately Hearing someone else's point of view, and as opposed to figuring out what you don't agree with, working out what part of it you could agree

Jimmy (2):

to, figuring out what you don't agree with. Working out what part you could agree with. And you jumped to a

James (2):

I'll get to

Jimmy (2):

to your point, Amanda which is let me just imagine that your point is right, what does that then tell you about what we're trying to resolve?

Amanda:

what does that then tell you about what we're trying to resolve? Yeah. Maybe it's just me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the questions from the coach was, in hearing the feedback for the first time, if 2 percent of that feedback were true, what will you take on board? Yeah. So there was a very intentional signal to find what might be true from someone else's view. Just

Jimmy (2):

I appreciate it.

James (2):

conclusion. Oh, no, hang on. I've got another one. Go

Jimmy (2):

Go on then.

James (2):

My favorite one.

Jimmy (2):

Oh yeah. What does Wait. stand for,

James (2):

It's like you just set that up on purpose. So wait is an acronym, and wait stands for why am I talking. So you need to think wait, because in actual fact, I already know what I know. I have no idea what you know. so if I shut up and listen, I might just learn something. So that's an interesting one to remember. Wait. Wait. I like

Jimmy (2):

And we talked about this previously, James. I think you were always very good at If a discussion is going the right way, you can get the outcome you want. You won't necessarily feel the need to chip in. Whereas most people will think, God, I've been in this meeting for 20 minutes and I haven't spoken. I must speak.

James (2):

Yeah, yeah.

Jimmy (2):

Even if you haven't got anything relevant to say, you've just got to contribute, haven't you?

James (2):

It wasn't a conscious tactic. I just didn't have anything to say.

James:

Right now, in summary, where does that take us there?

Amanda:

Well, one of the observations is this curious leadership is powerful, but potentially underused leadership style because leaders often feel like they have to know the answer so can't be seen to be asking questions.

James:

For me, I think it's important that you use it skillfully, you know, the whole thing about asking why five times and getting smacked on the nose. You want to unlock the potential and understand what's going on, not piss everybody off.

Jimmy:

I is not always appropriate. There are occasions. Where you don't want to be overly curious. If you've got to get out of a burning building, you want to be moving. Don't ask lots of questions. Which exit door should we

James:

Then that's it.

Amanda:

Yeah. And the observation that we're making, that really this is a journey. So, introduce curiosity. If it's underused at the moment in your style, introduce it incrementally. Try something out. Experiment, have a go, get curious about the impact that it had.

James:

And maybe warn the people that you're doing it. Another one If you're going to be curious, really be curious, be authentic about it. Nobody wants to know that you're asking them a question if you're just promptly going to ignore

Jimmy:

It's talking about a curious leader as if it was a leadership style. I'm not so sure. I think it is a really important, vital part of a leadership toolkit as opposed to a style that is always on.

James:

And finally, if you'd like to try out the questionnaire there is a link to it on the Great.

Jimmy:

Thanks, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. If you've got any questions or comments, please feel free to get in touch at jimmy at a job done world. com.

James:

Or James at jobdownlow. com Thank you for your time Amanda Thanks Amanda. Thanks everyone. Have a good week. a good week Thanks

Jimmy:

If you'd like to find out more about how James and I can help your business, then have a look at our website at ajobdonewell.Com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

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Jimmy Barber

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Amanda Gilbert

Guest