A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Episode 23: What Is Emotional Intelligence and How Can You Develop It?

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Amanda Gilbert • Season 1 • Episode 23

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This week, we talk with our resident Learning and Development Guru, Amanda Gilbert, about Emotional Intelligence (EQ). What is it? Why should you use it? What are the risks associated with using it?  and importantly, how can you develop it?
 
 Jimmy was put out by Rishi Sunak's lack of EQ when he trashed the credibility of his favourite trainers. James struggled to see the problem (he still can't spell empathy). Amanda just rolled her eyes and continued to share her wisdom on the subject
 
 If you've ever wondered about what EQ is and want to learn how to understand and  develop yours - so you can improve your relationships and your leadership capability... listen on.
 
 Sources and extra material are available at our website www.ajobdonewell.com

If you've got any questions, comments or need help developing your or your team's EQ then get in touch!

James:

hello, I'm James.

Jimmy:

Hi, I'm Jimmy.

James:

Welcome to A Job Done Well,

Jimmy:

the podcast about the world of work and how to improve the daily grind How are you?

James:

very much all the better because i'm sitting next to amanda today

Amanda:

Hi, nice to be back

Jimmy:

Amanda's joined us, we are going to take a look at emotional intelligence. It's an increasingly recognised and desirable quality in great leaders, and has a big impact on the workplace. So we are going to talk about, what do we mean by EQ? How do you define it? Some examples. Share some of our experience and lack of capability of this style, some stories and practical examples, the pros and cons and maybe risks And most importantly, Amanda is going to help us understand how you can develop it.

James:

That could be a big job for some of us,

Jimmy:

She's got a lot of time on her

James:

got time on her hands. She's

Jimmy:

So how you been Amanda? What you been up to since you last joined us?

Amanda:

Thoroughly fed up with all this horrible weather. but what it's actually inspired me to do is start my gardening efforts.

Jimmy:

development program

Amanda:

so growth in people is part of my development, but I'm actually started for the first year started on my own daily Honestly, it just gives me an overwhelming amount joy just to see those little green shoots come up for the first time Through the soil.

Jimmy:

have you been up to this week? Some

James:

I've got a garden as well. It's like the stately home. Mine is being,

Jimmy:

um, People at a certain age. Here we go, gardens. I

James:

knew we were going to get that. I was told the other day, actually, I went out to dinner with some friends and I came in dressed as I am now and she said to me, you're very chic, James. She says the Monty Don look is really taking off. So there you go. I've got my Monty Don

Jimmy:

got my Monty Don jacket on. And then

James:

you. And then the other thing that I've been up to is my daughter, bless her, is doing her GCSEs. So So I am as well, yeah. I am now pretty much French fluent again, and um, my chemistry is coming on leaps and bounds. Thank you for asking. How about you?

Jimmy:

about you? I am still reading from some very disappointing news in the last week. This all showed listeners when we were recording this, Rishi Sunak, our Prime Minister, and probably one of the least cool people in the world. Uh, was, was out, was out

James:

mean, the

Jimmy:

he was out sporting a pair of

James:

even wearing, he's

Jimmy:

original Sambas. I mean, the man's not, he's not only wearing Adidas, he's wearing Sambas, my favorite

James:

No. Well,

Jimmy:

same ones that I am sporting today. No.

James:

I rest my case. very

Jimmy:

So I am very sad about that.

James:

I'm more Jeremy anyway. We're going to have to edit that out. Oh, I'm corpsed. Go on then, Amanda. What do we mean by emotional intelligence?

Amanda:

So, emotional intelligence, it's the mind's ability to perceive, manage and express emotions effectively Originated by Meyer and Salovey. They defined emotional intelligence as the ability to be able to regulate feelings and use them then to guide our actions. And then more, the work more popularised by Daniel Goldman. Have you heard of him?

James:

I think I've got his book

Jimmy:

actually. Well known psychologist I believe.

James:

yeah, yeah.

Amanda:

Who later divided the necessary skill sets for high emotional intelligence, often abbreviated to EQ, Um, into these, domains Self awareness, so your ability to recognize your own emotions. And then self regulation being the ability to, when you recognize that, manage your emotional responses. So what you do as a consequence of those emotions coming forward. Um, and then moving into social awareness. So recognizing emotions in others, what's going on for other people and the people around you. And then turning that into the next phase which would be relationship management. So how you then manage interactions with others. And then something that I hadn't come across before actually, but in this field, an extra domain of motivation. So that's not explicitly part of the original four branch model, but actually it's a crucial aspect of EQ.

James:

So it's a bit like, a two by two box with another bit tacked on. So on the one hand, you've got cell Yes. And then you've got your ability to be aware, and then also your ability to regulate. Yes. That makes sense. Perfect. So

Jimmy:

Perfect. So shall we go through those in a little bit more detail?

Amanda:

Yeah, let's do that. So self awareness, looking at that one, your ability to accurately perceive your emotions, and then the tendencies and behaviours that that creates for you in any situation. So for example, if you suddenly feel frustrated or anger peaks. are you aware of that and are you aware of what the trigger is that's actually impacting that?

James:

So I have got a good example of this. Great. Unfortunately, the awareness always comes a little bit late for me, but I was driving I was driving through Thetford forest, believe it or not, and there was a system and there was a sign, and we'd been sitting in traffic for, oh God, 20 minutes, right. hideous. And, I've got two screaming kids in the back of the car, and, it's too hot, you know, those type of And it says, Merge in Turn. It says Merge in Turn. That's the instruction. Merge in Turn. It was my turn. I wasn't pushing in. It was my turn. And this pillock in the juggernaut, he thinks, well, I'm not letting him in. And then he goes straight through. At which point, I thought it was my turn, right? So, I honk the horn. And the globe winds down his window and he gives me the wanker sign. Yes, you do, right? So then I, um, I responded in time with, turned with a similar, signal. And then he, I don't know, questioned my fatherhood, I think. And then I really flicked and I stuck my fingers in my ears and stuck my tongue out and waved my fingers at him, just like that. Because that's what you do when you're

Jimmy:

you do. How old were you? Um,

James:

45. Anyway. And then, of course, what he did, this obviously, me doing that to him, he flipped, that was enough, right? So then he slams on the, brakes, this whole juggernaut screams to a halt, and he, starts to climb out the truck. Fortunately, though, if you remember the beginning of the story, we were at Contraflow and you couldn't get through so he stopped, so I just nipped in front of him, didn't I? So then, this was the best bit, then, I'm driving up, now I start to, um, regulate my emotion, I understand what's going on. Now, I'm driving through a contraflow with my wife and my two young daughters in the back of a small, car, and I've got a juggernaut right up my arse with this bloke who I've just, yeah. Woah. It was like a scene from Jewel. Remember Jewel movie? Oh yeah. So I then had to nip off down the side street and calm down. So there you go. A good case of Triggering.

Amanda:

Yes. Absolutely. And actually you lead very nicely into the next stage of the model, which is then the self management.

Jimmy:

Drive off down the side

Amanda:

Drive off down the side road. But first of all, recognising the emotion, it's in place, something's triggered you, perhaps a sense of unfairness. Unfairness. Unfairness in play there. And then, that rational part of your brain, so the first reaction is fast, it comes from that limbic system, to what's the right and appropriate thing to do? So the self regulation, as in what's the action I'm going to take. So self management in the model.

Jimmy:

management. Self aware, Self awareness in itself isn't that much useful. But once you actually do start to self manage, that's where, yeah, the rubber hits the road, so to speak, James. Yes,

James:

there you go. So I've scored one out of four on the mechanism so far.

Amanda:

In seven habits speak, that would be the moment of choice. have the reaction, pause,

Jimmy:

choose the And you can, you can feel it, you know, when you're meeting, and somebody says something that you really fundamentally disagree with, and you feel the emotion going. And hopefully, before you respond, you think through what your response is going to be, rather than just go off at them.

James:

Well, I think that's your point, isn't it? That's your self regulation. So being able to recognize your own Yeah. And then manage that. Yes. And choose what to Uhhuh. So to your point, Jimmy, a bit easier said than done. Yeah. Triggered. You're triggered.

Amanda:

But yes, of course. So it's knowing and recognition, awareness being the starting point.

Jimmy:

it's that whole bit of advice you're given as a kid, isn't it? Count to ten. You know, it's, it's, the point is, Pause before you respond. So you don't respond in the moment, in the emotion of it. You actually choose, to your point James, you have a choice and you choose your response.

Amanda:

That's what the first phase is all about, is discovering what goes.

James:

Yeah, and I think the difficult bit is understanding when you're aware. Because I have to admit, when I'm triggered, I'm triggered.

Amanda:

So maybe we've overstated the trigger part in this, but actually tuning up to, hey, when in this meeting. What am I feeling? What's going on for me right now? And it may not be triggered, but it might be something that actually it's worth getting curious about.

Jimmy:

Yeah, or even something, just to build on that a little bit, um, We

Amanda:

Yeah, or even something, just to build on that let's go positive. What if you find yourself, I don't know, one day thinking, I, I am just suddenly aware that I feel really relaxed or content right now. I mean, one, that's a beautiful feeling, a nice space to be in, but actually if you create awareness for yourself, What's contributing to that for me right now? What's making that true? You can then make choices about how do I recreate that more often in my life? Do you see where I'm going with that? So it's not all about necessarily something's going wrong. Although obviously in leadership, it, that's a really super useful thing to be aware of if it's going wrong and it's triggering you and driving the wrong behavior, but also what else in my life is fulfilling. It's about tuning up to what's your emotional state, whatever that may be, I

Jimmy:

I think if you work out, and I know it's a bit trite, but if you work out what that happy place is, that happy thought, you can call on that at other times, you don't just have to. when you've got a quiet moment, it is, use that to pause, use that to feel a different emotion than you're feeling in the moment, then choose to behave differently. The way I always think about it though, is, when it comes to response, what's the outcome that I want to get from this, either relationship or the interaction, because quite often, if you just respond from the emotion, It, it, it ends up in a row or a disagreement or you don't get your point across clear enough, but ultimately you don't get the outcome that you want.

Amanda:

There's something about, again, it points to choice, right? Once I'm aware of this, whatever that is, then I can, I can be more influential in my own life. So, I think the real point is Do we have you on board? Yeah, sorry. Count to ten. That's the key point, isn't it? Pay attention, is my key point, I think.

Jimmy:

Yeah, choose your response.

Amanda:

Yeah. So,

Jimmy:

So what's next? Social

Amanda:

An air social awareness, yes. So, recognising, funnily enough, emotions in others.

James:

but before we get into that. We ought to have a word from our sponsor. We cover a whole host of topics on this

Jimmy:

Purpose to corporate jargon.

James:

but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well.

Jimmy:

Easier said than done. So, If you've got Unhappy customers or employees Bosses or regulators Breathing down your neck

James:

of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver. So

Jimmy:

Can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organization's. Get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. com

James:

Or james at jobdonewell. com.

Jimmy:

So where were we?

Amanda:

What's the dynamic or the interaction going on between maybe individuals in your team? Actually this plays out in families, of course, anywhere that they're, What's going on for the people and can I empathize or acknowledge they may be experience. I mean, you have to agree,

James:

quite importantly, aware of what other people like to be thinking. we have told the story before about me and the slaying the dragons, the projects which needed to die. But I went to this room and I just said all these projects needed to die. And I was right, these projects did need to die, they were dreadful projects. But, more to the point, the other people in the room probably didn't see it that way. They were invested in those projects. And if I had the sense to sit back and think about where they would be emotionally beforehand, it wasn't my finest hour, I will be honest. I think there's some truth in

Jimmy:

In fairness, Amanda, you helped us with a little exercise to understand our I, um, I was listening to something really interesting the other day about empathy.

James:

I'm carrying. I was struggling to spell EQ.

Amanda:

I was listening to something really interesting the other day about empathy. But the, the notion that empathy even. in and of itself has different qualities. So there's the ability to be able to at a cognitive level, recognize that someone else has a different point of view or a different perspective going on for them. And then the emotional level of that too. Can I empathize with the feelings that you've had because I've had similar emotions. I'm, I can experience them in the same way. So So a cognitive level, do I understand it too? Can I kind of feel it myself? And then another one, the notion that I'm moved enough, to be able to take on board, but really want to help them with their emotional situation. So kind of different levels of empathy too. So that's really going to blow your mind, James.

James:

So how do you spell empathy again? Unfortunately, some of our listeners

Jimmy:

of our listeners will be more that than perhaps than perhaps James is. But, that's interesting Amanda, because I've never really thought about but yet do I intellectually understand what you're talking about and do I feel how to feel about what you're talking about as well as they are, they are different.

Amanda:

but actually what you observe in others and experience in others, to skillfully influence or handle different interactions. Really important as a leader, of course, but effective communication. What do I want to be able to create? What's the emotional reaction that I might want to instill as I deliver a message here, for

James:

and there are people who are really very good at that. We were talking about, who was the guy you were talking about?

Jimmy:

so the, the guy who was, um, formerly the, The chair of the FCA Charles Rondeau, he was absolute class at this and I remember going in and presenting to them about something that That I thought they weren't doing right and it could have been very confrontational But the way he handled it was just he was honest. He was open. He was calm authentic about it Accepted my position and talked about what we were going to do about it But I saw him as a person deal with conflict or deescalate conflict many times, but he has such a great style about it. He could say all sorts of things to you and you're never going to take offense from the guy because it was such a authentic, calm way that he did it.

James:

Yeah. So then you've got, I mean, those are the four bits. So you've got self and others. Mm-Hmm. And being able to recognize what's going on and being able to manage. What's going on? Yeah. So what's the fifth bit is motivation. Then how does that fit

Amanda:

the extra part? So this is about looking using an emotional lens. Remember what drives our behavior? Yeah, what motivates us? So how are your emotions playing out in relation to your motivation? If I'm feeling a bit fed up or a bit stuck. Do I just abandon the thing I'm working on or actually can I move beyond? What I'm feeling now and remain persistent or resilient towards

Jimmy:

Yeah. I think we experienced that a few times, James, with, working for, Lee Powell at Capital One or David Peart at RSA. And both of them were very good where things were going wrong or we had some setbacks or You know, we had to do some things we didn't want, and it really caused them emotionally some challenges. They were very good at then picking themselves up and, then driving forward. But by doing that, they then inspired the rest of the team to pick themselves up and drive forward as well. So, you manage your motivations, you saw them managing theirs. Nice.

James:

theirs. Nice. Okay. All right. And so I'm convinced. So I can see that the, there is an importance and value in this. Um, I will be buying myself a book, but no, I could get it. So really what we're talking about is communication and the ability to build a bond with your team and yeah, understand what's going on for

Jimmy:

think it also have a really positive impact on people's performance. You really understand them and think about them on an emotional level, you know, job satisfaction, well being will be much, much higher in teams with leaders like this.

Amanda:

The work that I do with my clients in building teams is actually exploring very often about what's going on for each individual and are there any areas of conflict and can they develop, within themselves and in their team environment the ability to better manage those dynamics. a more robust outcome.

James:

And it's a bit like, negotiations. I remember, crikey, 20 years ago, I went on a negotiation skills course. It was all about thinking win win. But, to get to the win win, he drew a lovely little diagram. It was a Venn diagram, but it was about what was acceptable to one person, versus what's acceptable to you. And it was all about finding the overlap. Yes. But, actually, you have to explore the emotion, what's going on for different people. Yes. to be able to do that,

Jimmy:

very similar sort of thing. your personal relationships as well, as much as it does your work relationships, I presume.

James:

so the phrase bad dad. Does that have anything to do with EQ then?

Amanda:

Maybe. I think

Jimmy:

So I think there are some real strengths to this as a leadership style, but there are some risks as well. There are some possible downsides, and I know that. You said, Amanda, in, in the research that was done that actually there is a negative correlation between, people with high EQ and, people who have creativity and innovation. So you don't often or don't always get those together because presumably, if you have high EQ, you can, worse case, you can become a bit buttoned up and a bit, restrained in terms of how you manage your emotions, and that doesn't necessarily help you with creativity and innovation. energy that,

James:

I'm a creative type, I'm a bit of a prima donna, is that what you're telling me? we

Jimmy:

James, you go with that, mate, go with it.

James:

Go on then. Any other, um,

Jimmy:

Well, If you become very tuned into people's emotions it would be quite easy to avoid upsetting the apple cart too much. So maybe, might shy away from giving bad messages, not wanting to, ruffle people's feathers too much. So make too many changes because, that might upset people. I

James:

think there's also probably a halfway risk, which is people who understand it, but don't understand it, or aren't quite as practiced as they think they are, maybe come over as being a wee bit manipulative. Is that fair?

Jimmy:

that's probably, um, probably true, isn't it?

James:

I think it is, and actually, in the extreme of that, actively use it, frankly.

Jimmy:

There are lots of positive impacts, there are some risks, but overall it is hugely impactful and very positive, so if we wanted to develop our EQ, like say you did a little test on us and there was a, we were found wanting, as ever. So, how would we go about developing our EQ, Amanda?

Amanda:

number of different ways that you can approach that. Um, I've seen and comes up a lot is journaling, actually. So particularly in the space of self reflection and creating self awareness. Taking the time to just write down, maybe at the end of the day, what happened today? How was I feeling at any given point in the day? What went really well? What went less? And spotting then any specific patterns or behaviors or reactions?

James:

Well, actually thinking about that is really quite powerful because my point about being triggered by the lorry driver, but if you know you are going to get triggered and you can then sort of almost see the triggers for the trigger, if that makes sense. You just get a sense of when you are likely to go, which would then help with your, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Amanda:

Three, three sixty, assessments, we've, there's a ton of emotional intelligence assessments, which are fascinating to go through. again. Um, self score, actually you can do versions of that where you ask other people for feedback as well.

Jimmy:

That's Occasionally, I have been told that I'm feeling a certain way because that's how I'm showing up to people. It's not how I'm feeling. And so that difference between your intention and your impact, I think you only really find out when you talk to others and gather feedback from others. So I think that really does help One though, which builds on that, which was the point I think you made and Amanda, so we had a bit of pre work. And one of the pre work was, try to study an interaction and whilst you're in talking to somebody, recognise the emotions that are going on in the conversation. And I tried that and that's really quite enlightening it makes you realize how much you walk around in your own box and you don't notice what's going on the way that other people do.

James:

And I think actually there is an element of and it sounds really bad, but just being worried about yourself and not worried about anybody else. And if you're only on Planet James, all you'll see is Planet James.

Jimmy:

worry less about your words, and worry more about observing other people's body language and tone.

James:

Um, anything else?

Amanda:

Online courses, there's tons, I'm not sure about how I feel about online versions of this, if there aren't other people present, but anyway. And training, there's tons. There's lots of formal training for this.

Jimmy:

with a few of the, the Throughout. probably the last 20 years I've used an exec coach at work or a counselor outside of work to help me understand a bit more about how I'm feeling, how I'm feeling towards others, how I relate to others. Getting that help, whatever works for you, is a really, powerful way of helping develop your, your personal EQ. I

Amanda:

I couldn't agree with you more,

Jimmy:

But some really useful tools to at least get started.

James:

So, in summary then, where does that take us? What are the key points?

Amanda:

Well, I think one of the things that we've discussed at length really is the enhanced interpersonal relationships. And a positive work environment.

James:

I think for me it's all about better communication. So understanding where somebody's sitting, what's on their minds, how they'd like to see an issue, really helps get the message over quicker and more effectively.

Jimmy:

And it's likely to mean, better conflict resolution, you're going to fall out with people less. You're going to manage your relationships better.

Amanda:

Empathy, empathy driven decision making, so leaders with high emotional intelligence consider facts and figures all really, really important, but actually also the impact on their people.

James:

Self awareness is really powerful because you can't self regulate if you aren't necessarily self aware. I will endeavor to count to 10 when I'm out driving next time. I

Jimmy:

drivers of the UK, thank you. An environment which has high EQ is likely to see, superior performance

Amanda:

It needs to be done with skill, because overdone or done in the wrong way could end up, producing a diplomatic workplace that, doesn't have all the change, innovation and energy for shifts that you might actually

Jimmy:

your five dimension model was very helpful to understand a bit more about EQ, as were your tips of how you develop it. So, thank you Amanda.

James:

see you both.

Jimmy:

Thanks everyone, hope you've enjoyed this leadership episode. And if you've got any questions or comments or want help developing your EQ. Then feel free to get in touch with us at jimmy at a job done. Well calm

James:

us at

Jimmy:

Always always yeah waste an email to James

James:

thanks now. Thanks everyone. Have

Jimmy:

Thanks everyone have a great week

James:

Bye 38

Jimmy:

If you'd like to find out more about how James and I can help your business, then have a look at our website at ajobdonewell.Com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Amanda Gilbert

Guest