A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Leading Through Redundancy

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Amanda Gilbert • Season 1 • Episode 27

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Are you grappling with one of the most formidable leadership challenges? At some point in our careers, we must navigate the complexities of guiding a team through redundancy. There are numerous scenarios and types of programmes, from wholesale organizational failures to individual exits, and each has its nuances. However, a constant throughout is the critical role of leading people and teams effectively during this time. It can profoundly affect individuals' lives and their perception of you as a leader.
 
 Today, our favourite leadership expert, Amanda Gilbert, is here as we discuss our experiences and offer our top insights and strategies for addressing this challenge to ensure the best possible outcomes for you, your organization, and, most importantly, your team.
 
 If you need any help with leading teams through redundancy, please get in touch at Jimmy@ajobdonewell.com or James@ajobdonewell.com

James:

hello, I'm James.

Jimmy:

Hi, I'm Jimmy.

James:

Welcome to A Job Done Well,

Jimmy:

the podcast about the world of work and how to improve the daily grind

James:

Good afternoon, how you doing?

Jimmy:

I'm alright, how are you James?

James:

very well, thank you very much. Again, I have the delightful Amanda sitting next to me today. Hi.

Jimmy:

Welcome Amanda. Thank you.

Amanda:

you.

Jimmy:

today we are going to talk about a challenge that all leaders face at some point in their career. Making people redundant. We've all been on both sides of the conversation and we feel strongly that there are, yes, we feel strongly that there are ways of doing it that give best outcomes all around. So if you lead people or ever might lead people in the future, listen to our golden rules and They will help you navigate one of the most challenging situations you'll face. This is the first of two parts. Next week we are going to talk about how it feels to be made redundant again something that all of have plenty of experience of.

James:

so what's

Jimmy:

so what's what have you been up to amanda since you were last with us Well

Amanda:

gardening saga continues because as the weather gets better, of

Jimmy:

of Of course. I'm

Amanda:

and pieces in the garden and from a work perspective i've I've enjoyed working with a client this last week around thinking about You When you're bringing people into your organisation, rather than giving that induction checklist of things you must know, and here's the introduction to IT, much more about the experience of what it means to work in this organisation, what does it feel like, which is a very, very different challenge, but it's been huge fun.

Jimmy:

is a very, Well, it sounds like there's an episode in there for the future at some

James:

at some point. Yeah, sure. have I been up to? Last weekend I met up with some of my old friends from when I started work 34 years ago. And they're all getting a bit older, fatter and grayer, it must be said. So it's quite depressive. So that was my week.

Jimmy:

week has been punctuated with a challenge. My youngest daughter passed her driving test three months ago, and she's, loves driving, really keen, out and about, but she's on a limited mileage policy. So, I said to her, you need to manage the number of miles you're doing, so don't just be right driving round aimlessly. She drives to and from work, to and from her mum's round trips of five miles a go. So you can imagine my shock when I asked her, So how is the mileage going? We had a little look in three months, she's done 4, 000 miles. Pottering around Nottingham on a mileage policy that's capped at 5, 000.

James:

per year? Ah. 277

Jimmy:

She's got 277 days more to do. on 1, 000

James:

think she's ground well. Well, it's not all right, back on topic then. Redundancy. Right. Why have we decided to talk about this? is something that seems to be happening with increasing frequency in companies of every size and across Every industry the whole idea of a job for life. It might have been something in my father's day Certainly hasn't been in my day But it just is a fact of life. And from a leadership development perspective, so leaders who are very often leading these programs or smaller conversations, it's often not something that leaders are taught. There's a big variation in the experience of, how this happens. we're considering how you lead the person being made redundant. But also, how you look after the rest of the team or the organisation too. And,

Jimmy:

And also,

James:

There's a funny story there. Yes.

Jimmy:

yes, We'll bring that one out later. So, we want to make sure that the impact that leaders have We want to try and help people have as positive an impact on the lives of the people they're leading as possible. And this is key to our podcast mission. Helping people improve performance and enjoyment of work. Being able to do this well, and unfortunately in today's world, is vital.

James:

we get into that, I think just a little context about situations and processes. There is a, well you can see on the internet if you go onto the ACAS site, there is a very clear process that an organization should follow if it is making people redundant. And that really should be understood and followed. However, different companies have a very different attitude to how closely they will follow that process. It depends on their attitude towards risk people money and it can be wildly different from one organization to

Jimmy:

So what we're talking about today won't focus on your individual company or the specific league and HR processes. This is more about how you lead people and teams through the process. Some of the things that could happen, you can get involved in large scale redundancy programs. So companies collapse site closures, stuff like that. Sometimes you'll get involved in small scale change. So a team structure might change or individuals get compromised out of an organization. However, I guess our view is that the leadership side of things is pretty similar regardless of The types of redundancy program that you're involved in. And there are also nowadays lots of reasons for doing these sorts of programs. It can be, cost challenges, it can be, external changes, it can be issues with capability. There's lots of reasons that that these programs happen. So the way we're going to consider it is, we've really looked back on our leadership. experience and We're going to be answering five different questions. So to start off with the first question. What have you done that worked well in previous experiences of leading teams through redundancy?

James:

thing is avoid it. And that sounds a bit glib, but actually what you see is lots of people just building empires. And sooner or later, someone's going to turn around and say, Oh, it costs too much. And that is when the redundancy programs quite often hit.

Jimmy:

do you avoid it

James:

avoid it? Well, and it's the stuff we've been talking about. But if you can, over time, just reduce the amount of work, gradually let people leave your teams via attrition, hold your headcount flat, then, when you get to that position where somebody's saying, Oh, you've got to have a 10 percent headcount cut, it's happening across the board, then it becomes a lot easier if you can point at the headcount That you've had over time, and if it's gone down, you can defend your position. I do think a lot of this is bad management. People letting their teams grow out of size and kilter. And so if you don't let that happen, it puts you in a stronger place when you are negotiating what it means for your team When the axe falls.

Jimmy:

decides to fall, when the axe falls. But if

Amanda:

and so in the difficult circumstances where you do have to do this tricky or sensitive leadership job, then one of our tips is about preparing really well in advance. And by that I mean, not just following the process steps, which are important, we've talked about all kind of the law and the, and the structure of that, but actually considering deeply who are the people, who are the people that are impacted by this change that you're about to bring about, and where possible the individuals, so what are their individual circumstances, thinking about when, where, and how you'll support them further during the process. What that might look like from their point of view. And if it's not going to be you that's supporting them for some reason, actually, who is? So you've created plans broader than the process steps which have been given to you by the lawyers centred around the individuals that you're going to be impacting.

Jimmy:

A couple of things that I've seen that works works well for me was the really the importance of communication. And I know this is obvious, but people just want you to be honest about the

James:

about the situation. Oh yeah, because people, when you're in the middle of it, people just seem to think it's top secret and hush hush and you can't say anything and it just drives angst. Yeah,

Jimmy:

and just being open about the communication, don't sugarcoat it. you're talking to adults and we tend to not talk to them as if they're adults. I think that makes it difficult and often, people just want certainty about what's going to happen. to them. a couple of examples. of that, when I took over one organisation, we were, had already announced that we were closing one of the branches and we hadn't told them when. And so they were in a really horrible position for them. Yeah. they just like, we just want to know when. And so, you know, we just decided on a date and planned around that date. But previously they'd wanted to have a Perfect. answer before committing to a date. That's no good for, for people's well being. so giving them the certainty. All of a sudden, as soon as they knew that, they started pulling up trees and did a great job for the last six months of their, their time. They could get on with their lives. Share

Amanda:

something? What, you know, when you know Similar story actually to, for the that where I was leading that change we, gave a date and then at some point head office changed the date.

Jimmy:

date.

Amanda:

So we were back in that communication cycle again, but because we'd stayed open throughout the process around communication, giving as much information as possible, it was much easier to step in and make that change

Jimmy:

I think in both examples, the either not giving the date or moving the date out, you're doing it from your perspective and the organisation's perspective. What's the organisation? need here? It's not giving a date, or it's, having precision whereas actually I think one of the key things you've got to think about through their position, not your position solely. remember one of the first times I made a load of people redundant and I went through this, group and I'd really focused really hard on all the people I was making redundant and then, then I, had to talk to some people who weren't. being made redundant who job was safe. and the first person I told their job was safe I have never experienced emotion like it in my life and I was completely unprepared for it because I was thinking about it from my perspective bad news you've been made redundant good news you've got a job Well, this person had so much pent up emotion from waiting for an answer that when I finally said

James:

you in

Jimmy:

no, no, she was, she was happy with it, but it was just You don't understand sometimes the amount of emotion that people have. And whatever news you give them, that emotion comes out at some point.

Amanda:

you know what's something else that you're in my mind now as I'm thinking about communication? I was talking to someone recently and they were sharing a story of when they'd led a change, but for their particular area of the business, truly believed that the people weren't impacted. And so essentially were, you know, fairly, well, not concerned about the message, but in circumstance, relatively relaxed, only to find, actually, that the husband of one of the people that they were communicating with was more deeply impacted. So, again, that communication was important, but what they hadn't taken into consideration was that it had foot, this had wider tentacles in the organization, and people were impacted through other hearts. People will see it in different ways depending on their circumstances. That's the point, isn't it?

Jimmy:

And sometimes I remember telling people who are really, high performers, they won't, they're gonna be, their jobs are at risk, but they were never gonna be made you know. that for the outset. You can't tell them that, but you know it. So you just sort of think, well, why are they worrying? Well, they're wrong,'cause they don't know that.

James:

Yeah. Yeah, I

Jimmy:

know what I mean, And all you've done is told them the world is now an uncertain place. for them. So don't be surprised when people, react to that uncertainty. So, what else have we seen that's worked well? What have we seen that others have done?

James:

there is a lady that I've worked with oh, I'm a bit, I'm a bit ground person. We should name her.

Jimmy:

You're going to nick my one off,

James:

believe them. We've said what's, yeah. But she just organizes this beautifully. So she sits down and she thinks well exactly what's the stages we've got to go through from a legal process point of view but then she also brings in all the things about communication all the things about timing all that and then just sitting there and planning it through and organizing it communications the whole nine yards of it just priceless I think if you are going to do it treat it as a proper project and do it properly yeah all

Jimmy:

All of the that preparation is key. As you say It's much wider than just how do you follow that legal process, that either your HR team or your lawyers will manage you through it. That's a fraction of it, And yeah, as you say, Vic's attitude towards planning more widely has helped us do this really effectively in multiple organisations now.

Amanda:

organisations now. I love that because that actually, you know, prompts me about an example that I saw that worked really well. So what we're talking about is being a human. We're talking about actually something that we were discussing a lot in the previous episode, the episode about EQ, emotional intelligence. So tuning up your human being in this, these circumstances, turning on or dialing up your emotional intelligence and understanding people's perspective from their point of view. Knowing that you have to manage yourself as well. That's something else we haven't talked about. But you'll have your own emotional reaction to this. So taking care of that in the process. But then also thinking carefully about, you know, what's the story? What questions will people have? So I love that Vic prepares for all of that. I remember I was supporting, actually, a leader and he was doing some communications one to one with an individual. And they were asking lots of questions about the criteria that had been used for selection. Yeah. And how they personally had been selected. And of course you have process steps for that, what you can and can't say. But actually this particular leader was brilliant at checking in with the person they were talking about and saying, How useful will this be to you? Let's think about the criteria, think about the impact of the decision based on more information about why you, versus what you might need to go forward from this. Does that make sense? It sounded a bit ruffled.

Jimmy:

No, that, that absolutely does make sense. And I think your point about looking after yourself is often, a really underused, underprepared point.

James:

Oh, and I mean, it's, it's not about you, right? So if you're pushing people through this, it's not about you.

Jimmy:

But if you don't look after yourself, you can't do a good job of helping people through it. So I think, prioritizing looking after yourself is an important one. One of the things on that that that really helped me was the first redundancy program I had to run. Took a load of people through it. A load of people departed the organization. Then because of the follow ups I had to do with them, I saw where they ended up. And they ended up in really positive places.

James:

And

Jimmy:

Actually, that really helped me, because all of a sudden I realised that whilst it's a shitty, horrible thing to go through, at times, actually people's lives were much improved coming out of it. People went off and tried new things. Could change careers. It enabled them to take some time out. It enabled them to retrain. It enabled them to do some of the things they all wanted to do. and They got caught in a rut with this job. It enabled them to find a job that was more suited to them. So, there was a whole load of positive impact And all of a sudden I was like, okay, so I was focusing on this is just a negative thing to do. And actually, it can be a hugely positive outcome for the individuals. And so if you can help them go through that, in the right way, that gets a great outcome for them. So having that mindset of actually, this will have positive impacts on people really helped me when I was doing it in the future. because I saw it less of, I'm really ruining your life. to actually at times you're going to be set free to do some other things and I'm going to help you go through this process in the best way possible in order to do that. At least that allows you to, be relatively

James:

a, there is that thing that actually for some people being given the opportunity to go is the best thing.

Jimmy:

Yeah, there is, there is the example where, after a redundancy program, we were on the team that stayed. And stayed in an organization that was in a complete mess. dealing with real shit, really slog it was. And I remember our boss took us out One night and it was, we'd just done a day, a big day of strategy and talked about all these horrible things we were going to have to do in the future. And we were all feeling down about it. He said, just remember boys, though, you're the winners. You've still got jobs. And we were like, fucking hell, I wish I had that

James:

jobs. So that's

Jimmy:

So, that's the point. Sometimes staying can be a tough thing. And it isn't. You're not always. the winner because you stayed. So, we started to talk there about stuff that is a bit more negative. So what else have you seen that did have a negative impact?

James:

a bit more negative. So what else have you seen that did have a negative impact? The door was always open, blinds were always up, he was a lovely guy, you know, always walking to his office.

Jimmy:

see where

James:

Anyway, on this one occasion, on this one occasion, he decided he was going to close the blinds. So all the blinds were closed, and the door was shut. No

Jimmy:

No alarm bells were ringing for you at this point.

James:

Anyway, he opened the door. Glad you

Amanda:

tuned up your sensitivity.

Jimmy:

was before James listened to the

James:

to the EQ. Right. Oh, what's going on there then? Have you got blood on the walls? And yeah, they just sacked a load of people and I had no idea. So A, it wasn't great. With the benefit of hindsight, it wasn't the wisest thing I'd ever done. But if you are going to go through this as an organisation, it's probably best to let people know that it's going on so they don't say anything stupid.

Jimmy:

anything stupid. What else have you seen that had a negative impact, Amanda?

Amanda:

I can remember I'm going back a long time ago to insurance days, but so luckily for me, the organization I worked in where this happened was, was great about how they looked after people. I've been lucky in that way more than once, but where they just took a bunch of people off site what they thought was actually, you were just talking about team event, but a team event, the team day where they were actually all just told. Do you know that? That's it. You're out of a job. And they weren't even allowed back into the offices they'd come from to go and collect their things. Which you can imagine the devastation and disruption that created. Ah, well I could take that and I can top that. There was one organisation that shall and it held exactly the same thing. Big team day. Two buses taking people there. And people were told which bus to go on. And of course the buses went off to different hotels. And then one lot were told they could stay. And they were told they were going. Wow. But of course, one of the guys I know got on the wrong, got on the wrong freaky bus didn't he?

Jimmy:

So there were a

James:

So there are, but you know, some ways of doing this are more positive than others.

Jimmy:

Well, I had a very similar experience to you guys working in an organization a long time ago now. we had a redundancy program and the, The boss got everyone together and said, a number of you are going to be made redundant today. And he was giving it all bitty big balls, I'm going to be talking to those people that are being made redundant. because he was going to take care of them. And you know, the HR team will brief the rest of you. And he looked around and said, James, I'll see you at 11 o'clock. Amanda, I'll see you at 11.

Amanda:

Oh, I just drove

Jimmy:

like, just some people, you know, the way they do things like that.

Amanda:

It's just not

Jimmy:

thought through, enough. And

Amanda:

that's the thing.

Jimmy:

Treat people with a bit of dignity. haven't you, at the end of the day.

Amanda:

100%. The other thing which is not so good is

Jimmy:

the

Amanda:

So the tip is about trying to be mindful of the people that will be impacted thinking about where they are in their lives and are they at some vulnerable point, is there something else going on in their context, which means you're just going to add another layer of misery. Now, I completely understand organisational process sometimes that's tricky, but if there is context for individuals, you can be thoughtful about that. When you bring them in for this difficult messaging. For example, people have recently been bereaved. Is something I heard about. That's kind of extra layer of, talk about kicking you when you're down. So that can be avoided, then avoiding that.

Jimmy:

I think also, you know, just thinking there are people that are part of the team that may not be in the office at any one time, it might be on holiday. might be on maternity leave, they might be off sick, and how do you make sure you take those people through the process in the right way that keeps their kind of dignity as well?

James:

on one occasion my wife had a cancer scare, and the guy who made me redundant, his first question was, is your wife alright, she's got cancer? And then his next statement was, and you don't have a job. It's not a nice job, but there are better ways of doing it. There are. That's I'm

Jimmy:

One of the things I've seen done quite badly at times was very senior leaders in some organizations are happy to abdicate responsibility for doing this. So they let the HR team talk to you about things I've experienced on the times that I've been made redundant, the senior leaders just let everyone else get on with it, So take no accountability for the situation, don't have the right conversations. And really, you can't abdicate this responsibility. Anything that you wish you had done

James:

before I ask you to get into that, just one other thing that occurs to me. And it comes back to organizational Yeah, and some organizations are very generous when they make people redundant. Yeah. And others just try and get away with the bare minimum. And just the, you know, if they're focused on cost and they don't really care about anything else. And just the point I think is karma is a bitch, it will come back and bite you. Yeah. And yeah, if you get a reputation for being cheap and nasty, that is all you will ever be. So I think that's something that organizations ought to think about when they just think about their appetite for

Jimmy:

They say, you can tell what an organization is like on your, on your way in. I think the same is true on the way out. And I think if you look at how organizations treat people through the recruitment process and through the redundancy process, I bet you life in that organization is, pretty reflective of that experience. Final question. If you could do anything differently, you know, no, we shouldn't really talk about regrets, but if you could do anything differently, what, what would you do

James:

retroscope has 100 percent reliability, but there are some organizations where I do think I really ought to have left earlier. Because that's not, you see the way they treat people, you probably shouldn't be staying there. So I think that's one of the things I wish I'd done earlier. Some Not all of them. I think

Jimmy:

think retrospectively, one of the things that I looked at, and I think this I think this is a difficult one, back to that, people get on and do great things to their lives, as their leader, you always think that you could be a a good coach to those people, and it's what help could I give those people a leaving, to help them get the best outcome possible. And so, part of me thinks, I wish I'd been a better coach to some of the people I've been made redundant, but equally I think sometimes you become the focal point for that negativity and that negative experience. I don't think people are always as open to your coaching, when you're taking them through the process.

James:

So

Jimmy:

So I think you made a point earlier, Amanda, which is making sure that people have the right support. And that isn't that you can provide all of that support. Sometimes you have to source that from other, areas, other people, outside your organisation, whatever it is. Your responsibility isn't necessarily to give that support, but is to make sure they have that support.

Amanda:

that support, but is to make sure they have that support. about making it clear to them that even though you may not be the right person from their point of view, which is completely their choice, has to be at that point, that you're willing. So thing for me is, could I have been better at staying in touch with people? Because you know we make such a big deal, don't we? Unlikely so, about you're joining this team, we're onboarding you to this organization or this team. Actually, don't think I perhaps paid as much attention to that off boarding. So the process, and the steps, and kind of staying connected to people as we went through that process, yes. But what about beyond, once they become, you know, in the wider universe? It's easy, I think, to feel quite relieved as a leader that it's over, it's done, now I've done my part. But actually, maybe, staying connected, staying interested. being a referee for future roles for people. Well, just being a bit more human Exactly that, yeah. Look at this, we've brought the EQ out,

Jimmy:

point, we should take a small break and hear from our sponsors.

James:

We cover a whole host of topics on this

Jimmy:

Purpose to corporate jargon.

James:

but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well.

Jimmy:

Easier said than done. So, If you've got Unhappy customers or employees Bosses or regulators Breathing down your neck

James:

of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver. So

Jimmy:

Can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organization's. Get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. com

James:

Or james at jobdonewell. com.

Jimmy:

So from that, I guess you could see that there are some key themes that come out of our experience of leading teams through redundancy. preparation we talked about. Managing People, the process, the emotional impact that it will have on people. The fact that everyone's different, so, you can't just necessarily, forecast that emotional impact. The importance of communication. I guess one of the things, though, that struck me is that there is no perfect way. There's no one answer that fits every situation. So this is just a case of doing your best. So should we try and summarize what would we say was doing your best? What's the advice we'd give to people on this?

James:

for me, so invariably these things happen when organizations have got too many people and they've got too expensive. So you really should be thinking about continuous improvement, always doing more. mitigate the chance of this happening? Because he's grim when he dares. So think about mitigation would be my my first point. Mine I would add watch out for your own autobiographical thinking. So make sure that you know what they need from you not what you think is good for them

Jimmy:

Guess for me look after yourself so that you can look after others. And the importance of preparation. Have a plan. Get yourself organized and including the kind of recovery after the program as well.

James:

a bit esoteric, but I think, just think about your own values. And if you work for an organization where they're constantly doing this, I would suggest you ask yourself, is this a good place for you to be? Is this a place you want to stay? And on that values theme, consider when you're doing this work, the rest of your team and the people kind of looking in on the work that you're doing, how you're approaching that, because it will be a massive symbol of who you are as a leader and where your values are.

Jimmy:

The importance of communication should never be underestimated. Build understanding and help people understand why things are happening, what the impact on them, is, be honest, treat them like adults, but remember that ultimately people want certainty in the future.

Amanda:

And finally, keep it human. The legal process is really, really important. But how you do this as a leader makes as much impact as what you do. And remember, you'll be remembered for how you made the people feel through this process. As much as you'll be remembered for how well you followed

Jimmy:

so that's our golden rules for helping lead teams. through redundancy.

James:

That was a cheerful conversation. What are we talking about next week?

Jimmy:

Next week we're going to lighten the mood. We're talking about the other side of the equation made redundant and how it feels to be made redundant and some things you can do to help yourself so if you find yourself in the situation where you're making people redundant, you're leading teams through redundancy and you want some help. Feel free to get in touch with us, jimmy at jobdonewell. com.

James:

I'm all for. And so Thank you for your time Amanda Thanks Amanda. Thanks everyone. Have a good week. a good week Thanks

Jimmy:

If you'd like to find out more about how James and I can help your business, then have a look at our website at ajobdonewell.Com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Amanda Gilbert

Guest