A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Coping With Redundancy - How to Survive and Thrive

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Amanda Gilbert • Season 1 • Episode 28

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Episode 28 - Being made redundant is a possibility that we all may face. It's one of the most challenging experiences in our working lives. In our discussions, we share insights and personal experiences about the highs and lows encountered, how we've coped, and strategies that have enabled us to survive and prosper after redundancy.

The taboos linked with redundancy and the feelings this generates are still not discussed openly enough. By examining this, we hope some of our experiences will either resonate with you or help you prepare for when the experience happens to you.

Useful resources include

Acas—Acas gives employees and employers free, impartial advice on workplace rights, rules, and best practices. It also offers training and helps to resolve disputes.

Mind— Free mental health support for adults in England and the Channel Islands.

Mental health - NHS—Information and support for your mental health.

Samaritans—Whatever you're going through, a Samaritan will face it with you twenty-four hours a day, 365 days a year.

James:

hello, I'm James.

Jimmy:

Hi, I'm Jimmy.

James:

Welcome to A Job Done Well,

Jimmy:

the podcast about the world of work and how to improve the daily grind

James:

You doing?

Jimmy:

the second of our two part episode on redundancy. Today we are talking about being made redundant, something that's happened to all three of us. Is it a blessing a blessing or a curse? We're going to be sharing our experiences and perspectives on what is often a taboo subject, but shouldn't be. And we think we've got some insights on how to ensure It's a more positive liberating experience rather than a cross to bear. This will help you out if you have ever been under the threat of redundancy when it happens to you as it surely will you will be prepared. So how's everyone been since our last episode?

James:

well, the thing that happened to me last night. Last weekend, which is very good, I was chatting to a friend of mine who is a GP, and we were talking about how she'd get old, the ailments as she'd get older, and I don't know if the chapter and verse went on a bit, and she said to me, oh, it's very simple, James, all you need to do is eat well, sleep well, and exercise well, and if you've got those three things covered, you could

Jimmy:

You know, every year you get sent for a health check for work, and every year there was a new, slightly more invasive A procedure that you had to tolerate as you get

James:

Yeah, yeah, I

Jimmy:

And you could always tell how old someone was when you start talking about their health check and they, they, you'd compare what they'd had done. Yes.

Amanda:

done. Yes, all the parties the NHS invite you to as you get older. Yes. Like N. O. T. It's true. Anyway, that was me. That's my update.

Jimmy:

have you been up to, Amanda?

Amanda:

I, since we last met, had a lovely evening out with a very dear friend from well, I've known her for years and years. Now I went to the theatre, is not something I do very often. What did you see? I should do more often. I went to see Six,, it's based on the wives of Henry VIII. It was musical. It was fun.

Jimmy:

I am completely obsessed currently with Nottingham Forest avoiding relegation. So, this episode will go out either around the time when Forest is safe or they've been relegated. But at the moment When we're recording, it is uncertain

James:

I

Jimmy:

and I am on edge. So we are talking about redundancy because, essentially, it happens to all of us. And it has happened to all three of us, hasn't

James:

yeah. On more than one occasion.

Jimmy:

So you've either faced this, or will face this at some point in your career, and it can be difficult to handle.

James:

will face this at some point in your career, and it can be difficult to handle.

Jimmy:

and both are really quite hard. You feel rejected, you feel inadequate, and it's a difficult thing to get your mind around.

James:

even, and life changing experience. I'm just,

Jimmy:

So, in terms of the background to it really does, or it certainly used to have a real stigma attached to it, didn't it?

James:

is, we were talking last week about the whole idea of a job for life. Yeah. Yeah, but I do think that it does, often when companies are making people redundant,

Jimmy:

making redundant, it probably was a very unpleasant thing, And did it get attention? in terms of the people they want to keep and who they're letting go.

Amanda:

particularly when it's small numbers. I mean, one of experiences which we'll talk about in a bit, but was where the whole branch was going. So I that's, I imagine that's easier

Jimmy:

imagine that's Slightly different, Yeah, and I think there are, as you rightly touched on when we talked about this last week, there are lots of different types of program. Yeah. So I think, yes, a whole branch or organization be tough, but that's different from being selected as an individual and being compromised out as an individual, which often means, you come to a one to one compromise agreement with an organization for you to go and not to talk about it and or darken their door again.

James:

and that assumes, of course, there was a compromise there. Yes. Yes,

Jimmy:

Yes, that's true. And, I guess, we should just caveat the discussion we're having, with the fact that we won't necessarily be talking about the specifics of the processes and the organizations that we went through, but more, it's more about the emotional side of things because obviously there are certain restrictions that we would all have. about what we can and can't talk about around previous employers.

Amanda:

we must

Jimmy:

in terms of, what happened and how did it make you feel, James, do you want to

James:

first. Well, it's happened twice to me. Yeah. Once was of my own making. So there were conversations and I stuck my hand up from it. Yeah. And then on another occasion it was a total bolt from the blue. So I had no, idea that it was going to happen at all. And it's strange, it's a bit like it's a bit, it's like a failing relationship. Yeah, you feel this sense of loss. It's like breaking up with a girlfriend because, well, that's what it is. It is a broken relationship. So this thing that you put so much time and effort into, all of a sudden that is taken away from you. And you feel rejected. Yeah. I think Some breakups are just easier to handle than others.

Jimmy:

others. Yeah.

James:

Two organizations that it happened to me with handled it very differently. And one I came away from and I would only ever say good things about that organization. And the other one I came from, and nothing good to say about them. But bizarrely, when push came to shove, at the end of it, financially, it was pretty much the same. It was just the way it was dealt with. So yeah, just

Jimmy:

goes back to something that we were talking about last week, which is, you can often judge an organization by their recruitment and redundancy processes and how you're treated on the way in and how you're treated on the way out Often is a good indicator of A, the values of an organization, but also, B, what life is going to be like in the organization, isn't it? Yeah.

James:

B, what life is going to be like in the organisation, isn't it? If you take

Jimmy:

the conclusion, I'm in the best place, I've entered in best place, it just takes a month to get to

James:

because I think when you have made a decision to go, then you held you hold yourself accountable for that. And so you do move through the change curve faster, I think, whereas when it comes as a bolt in the blue, then you just really. destroys your feeling of self worth for a little while and that does take longer and it's What's the point i'm trying to make It's totally subjective. You are the same person on both occasions If you're made redundant from a place and it is just you, then, to be honest, you probably weren't the right person for them and it wasn't the right place for you. So it is, in some ways, a kindness for it to have happened. It just didn't feel like it at the

Jimmy:

it at the time. And, as we touched on last week, there's a processes that have to be followed, but there's ways of following the process. So, you end up on the wrong end of the, wrong leader managing a process in the wrong way, for the wrong organization is going to feel quite different.

James:

Oh, and the guy, the one, the occasion when it happened to me, which was unpleasant, my wife had had a cancer scare. So he asked me whether or not my wife was okay and then 30 seconds later was making me redundant. I mean, he couldn't make it up. It was dreadful the way it was handled. But you get over these things, don't you?

Jimmy:

What, what, what would he have done if you, if you'd said, no, she has got

James:

got cancer?

Jimmy:

Did he have, did he have two conversations

James:

got two scripts. Well, the thing is, of course, that Actually, the more David Brent esque the situation is, the better you feel about it afterwards. Yeah, because do you really want to work for these people? So it's not a dead loss when something

Jimmy:

not

Amanda:

Well, and you've or that now, to be fair. Yeah, In the moment, it matters a great deal how the leader manages that. process. Yeah, this is why people shouldn't be called leaders but anyway. Well, yeah. and Hopefully the tips we've given before will help with that a little bit. I, in my experience, it's a long time ago. And there've been a number of times where I've been major redundant, or in that process, that

Jimmy:

Because that, I think, that's the other thing, is you don't always get made redundant.

Amanda:

Exactly.

Jimmy:

You get at risk, and you have that period of uncertainty. And that's equally, I things we're talking about apply to that

James:

that's never happened to me. I've never been at risk. Oh, have you not? Nope. I've just been

Jimmy:

has a strange

Amanda:

Well, even there is a strange set of emotions attached to it of course. Because, well, one, whilst you're in that process, you don't, no matter how good you are, I think we've talked about this before, people that you might think, well, crikey, why didn't they realise they would never be going. But actually you don't. As soon as you've you're in a process which describes you as being at risk, then you play out all the scenarios that go with that. What if I do lose my job? How am I going to make, you know, how am I going to earn some money? How am I going to support my kids or my family And what have you? But that's difficult. So, I I, my answer to the question, how did it make you feel? It's, it's an emotional rollercoaster at the time. Particularly when you feel, which we would all hope most employees do, feel committed and You a person who is committed and engaged and loyal to the organisation, and enjoying the work. and feeling like you're creating value for the organisation. So consequentially, I think whether you've decided that you're going to put yourself forward, or you are selected, or a whole branch of people are going, whichever is the scenario, it always feels personal. Because it is. Even when, you know, it could be a team. change. sorry to build on your point, emotional rollercoaster, absolutely when I look back at what has happened to me in the cold light of day, a number of years later, you can look at the facts of it and say, well, where was I financially? Where was I at that stage of my career? What were my aspirations? When you look at it like that, quite often it was the best thing that could happen to you. However When it's happening there and then Yeah. you you let go it is you can't control the responses. You're a slave to your own emotions

Jimmy:

as you say, Amanda, you can quite often try and rationalize it by, it's not personal, it's just a process, I've just got to do this, whatever. But the reality is, it is very personal and you can't react any other way, other than the feeling that it is personal to you. Yeah,

Amanda:

I mean, I, so, on the very sad side of this, there have been a few people, actually, that I've interviewed on this topic since, just because I'm deeply interested from a leadership perspective. And helping leaders in this difficult situation, to be able to manage these processes as well as you can. But words that have come up in the extreme are, shame. Like how, isn't that just strikes me Well, do you remember

Jimmy:

remember the

James:

to cut across, but the oh what's the film, the Full Monty? Yes. And the float gets made redundant. And he

Jimmy:

out to work. Yeah, he still, yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah Rejection, I think you said that earlier. the difference between us though, on the positive side for me, something you said earlier was, this did actually lead to a career change. for me. Yeah. That, it, it was the catalyst for me actually moving into learning and development, in all seriousness.

Jimmy:

It, this happened to me a couple of times, and they've been of my engineering, but still, you I did feel afterwards feelings of rejection and loss, because it, it doesn't matter, know, even if you're happy to be moving on, and you change career, you get better opportunity, there will be feelings of loss as in, that's what I did every day for a number of years. That's the organization that I showed loyalty to, I had friends with.

James:

with. Oh, I think that's a big, yeah, so that's a big point actually. So you might think your boss is the son of Satan, but there are all those people that you work with on a daily basis. And you've lost them. And You've

Jimmy:

You've lost them as friends, you know what I mean? I had people that I would have sat next to and worked with every day, closely, really got on well, and Many of them I probably never spoke to again when I left the organization. You know, some of them I do, but a lot of them you never see again in your life.

James:

and there is it's that whole point of loss, and it isn't so much the financial loss, because actually, most people can find another job, yeah? But it is, it's the loss of camaraderie. the

Jimmy:

the social loss. I think also, in my experience, the leaders that I worked with didn't always treat me that well. I think at times, we touched on last week, they abdicated conversations. It's so easy to let HR deal with this and let HR people have those conversations. And I think that's just, weak and it doesn't feel like you're treated with respect. I also noticed that, I became yesterday's man very

James:

Oh, yeah,

Jimmy:

You know what I mean? No one wants to talk to you anymore, you know what I mean? So, you suddenly discover the people they go around you, they're not really bothered about you anymore. And I think I felt personally, I felt really bad for the people that I left behind. So when I moved out of some of those situations, I moved out of organizations that at one point was in a challenging period of transition. I felt bad for the team that I was leaving behind. And so I think you can, feel a range of emotions. But, but they're all unique, aren't they?

James:

Yeah, yeah, sorry, another one to pile on, but in terms of loss, quite often it's a loss of identity. Yeah, when people say, you know, what do you do? Oh, I do this job. But we do condition ourselves, we identify with Yeah.

Jimmy:

from you.

James:

are you? The other side of of being made redundant,

Jimmy:

The other side of of being made redundant, which again we touched on last week, is also the survivors, the people who are left behind,, I felt guilty leaving my team behind, but for those people that are left behind, sometimes, you do get and I don't know if you've heard the phrase, performance punishment, if you're really good, often, You don't, you'll never get made redundant. that's just the reality of some organizations. So you, you can sit there doing a great job, getting all these high ratings and performing really well. And you look at these people that are not doing as well, that actually, they get made redundant, they get walk off with big checks. And you sit there, and all you do is get more work. More and more work, and more and more expectation of you. It's like performance punishment. Because you're performing well, people punish you with more work. The part

Amanda:

part to that, actually, Jimmy, that you caused me to think about as well is that, survivor guilt as well. So, when it's friends or people that you've been close to have been, still in the organization, it almost makes the conversation become awkward because they're still there. So do they tell you about the things that they're excited about? in their career? Well, of course, as friends, that's something you might normally talk about, but then does it become difficult territory?

Jimmy:

of

Amanda:

And, you know, I'm still part of this. It's really important that people can feel that they can continue to go on and celebrate what's good. about what's happening in their careers too. So hopefully, the stigma part, which we're hoping to Minimise but also that part but how do you stay in touch? It's almost like, perhaps it's a horrible analogy to draw. but You know, when somebody has lost someone close to them. Someone's passed away, sadly. It's like I hope I don't bump into them in the street because I won't know what to say. It's almost that kind of scenario that gets set up between people that would have been friends. You know, I feel guilty now about still being there or taking on a role. Anyway

Jimmy:

taking on a role. Well, talking of grief, let's just hold that thought for a second. back to that after we have a word from our sponsors.

James:

We cover a whole host of topics on this

Jimmy:

Purpose to corporate jargon.

James:

but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well.

Jimmy:

Easier said than done. So, If you've got Unhappy customers or employees Bosses or regulators Breathing down your neck

James:

of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver. So

Jimmy:

Can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organization's. Get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. com

James:

Or james at jobdonewell. com. model that a lot of people are familiar with,

Jimmy:

Yes, and there is a model that a lot of people are familiar with, which is the change curve, which did originally come from people's reaction to grief.

James:

Oh, death.

Jimmy:

Yeah. Many of you have heard of the change curve. We thought it was worth mentioning because. it's not precise, it is directional, but it, in our experience, it does really resonate in terms of how you experience things, so. Yeah,

James:

and a lot of people will pour scorn on the the old, what is it, it's the Kubler Ross change curve

Jimmy:

it?

James:

And they will find faults with it, but I think it is useful, What are the stages you go through on the change curve? question. Well, The first one being denial. Often the case, I can't believe this is happening. Why is this? happening?

Jimmy:

Yeah. Surely

Amanda:

Surely this isn't happening.

Jimmy:

to

Amanda:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

So really being

James:

So really being very

Jimmy:

Yeah, why are

James:

Yeah, why are you doing it? I could think of a couple of choice words there.

Jimmy:

Yeah, well what's bargaining. then?

James:

Yeah, well what's bargaining then?

Amanda:

It looks a bit like, well, I can deal with this if It's not just me, or this would be okay if, Yeah. kind of scenario. So you're moving past that duck part into starting to confirms with it.

Jimmy:

And the fourth phase?

James:

Downright depression.'cause that's, that's a dip. Yeah. this happened to me?

Jimmy:

fair. And then finally

Amanda:

Rationalisation, I think, or acceptance. coming to terms with this has happened, so what am I going to do about it to

Jimmy:

Moving on, in other words. I guess the point is, with these stages, they're often drawn as a curve. But it's not really how you experience it. You go backwards and forwards between the stages. The intensity of the stages can vary.

James:

Oh, and you can hang on to bits as well. So you can be angry, for example, for a very long time. Yeah. And once you've got

Jimmy:

the intensity varies, the duration varies, it's not necessarily linear, but I guess it does help you understand the sorts of emotions you'll go through or other people go through when they're experiencing change. And that's quite useful for both understanding but also then how do you respond and support either yourself or others. Yes,

Amanda:

When they're going through that and iterating through that as well, because different things can trigger. I remember, so the scenario I was describing obviously we'd had the news about being made redundant. It was a branch closure. I was the branch ops director at the time. I, Before the actual closure itself, I was then offered another job funnily enough, in a different part of the organization to stay on and teach other people to do what I had been doing. So arguably quite excited at that point to be starting and embarking on and what then became a new career learning and development. But on the day we lit, closed the branch, literally I turned out the lights, locked the door and handed in the key. I went and sold my socks off literally the saddest day I remember vividly on both occasions,

James:

well I remember vividly on actually every occasion I've left an organization you remember your last day, because it is sad, you know, even if you've to go of your own free will Yeah, it is just it's sad.

Jimmy:

think that sadness comes often, as we said, from saying goodbye to people, of which, you know, if you think about, however many hundreds of people you work with in an organization, how many people do you actually stay close to after that day versus, all those people that you then never see again? But they did mean a lot to you. So I think that, that sadness is whether you're open about it or not. That sadness comes from that realisation of that, that part of your life, that social, you know, network that you are part of, you are no longer part of. It's gone. So

James:

So where does that take us then? What are the common

Jimmy:

Well I think the change curve helps show you that the changes that you have in emotion are, are normal. You will go through those phases. One way or the other, they may vary, but that is perfectly normal. It

Amanda:

It is, and you will go through a range and it might be any, it can almost, almost be moment to moment.

James:

Yeah, so it is a rollercoaster. Yeah. Yeah. And if you are going through the roller coaster, that is absolutely normal, everybody does. Yes. Yeah, and all you can do actually is hang on. somebody to talk to about it

Jimmy:

think that's one of the difficult things is that often To your point amanda if it's a whole branch that's closing There is a little bit of camaraderie. You're all in it together

Amanda:

That Dunkirk spirit. however

Jimmy:

however when you it happens to you as an individual It can be quite a lonely place. So I think your point james about find someone to talk to And doesn't you know matter who it is in some ways, but it's more about somebody who's willing to listen to you Yeah.

James:

You have to keep positive. So whenever it's happened to me, maybe I'm very lucky, but it has been okay. I found other interesting things to do afterwards. The world doesn't stop, it's just that for a little while, yeah, the world stands on its head. But it will be okay, You've got

Jimmy:

I think that positivity also helps you, overcome some of the fears that you might experience. So, you know, the fear of the unknown, and, the fear of what happens next. The fear, the fear of you're not good enough, you're inadequate, all the rest of it, all those natural feelings, I think being, remaining positive is, is important. As I say to my kids regularly, you know, if you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right. There you go.

Amanda:

I like, the notion of in the space of positivity, if you can, get yourself in a good space to be able to think about this as perhaps a catalyst for something new. You know, one of those things you've always wanted to do, if you're lucky enough to be provided with some retraining by your organization, perhaps it's about exploring a not done before, or something you think you might have a talent for. but haven't had an opportunity to

Jimmy:

think one of The things you can always do which will, which is something you should do, regardless of being made redundant or not, is be prepared for changes in your life, be prepared that your work might not last forever. So, you should always have your CV up to date. You know, we should always be spending some time networking. You should always be spending time learning about what it is you do and what the latest things are happening. And that's, that's regardless. So if this happens to you, if you invest some time in those sorts of, activities, you'll be ready to embrace this change. Practically.

James:

Well, actually, make Make your own luck Because, frankly, no job is permanent. Doesn't matter what you do. Even if it's a job for life, you're still going to leave when you're 65. No job is permanent. So, get on and make your own luck.

Amanda:

I remember, in one of my coaching conversations with someone talking about they were talking about actually creating their plan B. And actually what we came to was, perhaps it's the plan A. You should build into the plan A, what you will do when you're no longer doing this. Which we rarely do. I mean, I'm listening to myself giving this advice and thinking, yeah, right. But actually, I genuinely believe Bill have the expectation that the point you leave, this is what you will do next.

Jimmy:

What, what other advice would we give to, to people in this? So we, we talked about, the fact that it will happen to people. We talked about our personal experiences. We talked about the change curve and how we all go through it. We talked about some of the common themes. We're now starting to talk about the advice we give people. Any other bits of advice you'd give?

James:

Yeah, I strongly advise you to look after your mental health because you're on this emotional rollercoaster. Now, whatever that might be for you, go out, go for a run, listen to some music, go out and socialize, go for a walk in the woods, whatever it is. But you really do need to do that, don't dwell on it, because you find yourself in

Jimmy:

yourself in a daze. Yeah, in all those things, it's about momentum. It's about, going and doing something, whether it's exercise or getting out or seeing people just sitting and dwelling and, you know, being introspective. That's not, that's not positive thinking about the future. That will only, really drag you down and you start to get into that vicious circle in terms of your mental health and your mood. of

Amanda:

that circle of influence, circle of control. Okay.

Jimmy:

that? You

Amanda:

You know that it's, a tool. I think this also comes from seven habits, but it may be used more broadly. But to figure out those things that actually are completely outside of your control. So, this branch is closing, for example, not within your control. And focus your attention on the things that you can influence. So, advice like updating your CV, going out for a walk, starting to think about, you know, reaching out to your network. Putting your energy there. As opposed to that kind of broader perspective, which you

Jimmy:

this case. As, as, as the prayer of serenity says, and the wisdom to know the difference between those two. And

James:

the other thing is taking control. I would advise you get clear on your rights. There's lots of information on the internet. Some organizations do this very well. Some organizations do it badly. If you are being treated badly, you do have rights. You should understand what they Because actually once you go through that It helps you get through the but yeah,

Jimmy:

And ultimately, I think your own personal response to it is perfectly normal, as we've touched on, we've been through situations where we did it through our choice. It was engineered through to. whole branches closed and the responses that we had, they're all normal. It doesn't matter what it is, it's just, the thing to focus on as you touched on Amanda is then, well, what's your response to that happening? And how do you do some of the things that we've just talked about, about being prepared, about looking after your mental health, and about being ready to open up new possibilities?

James:

piece of advice, I'm full of such advice, but it is, like I said, it's like a breakup of a relationship. So don't jump into the first job that comes back your way. Because it's a bit like, you know, the next girlfriend being the one on the bounce. You want to be careful of that, Yeah, So it's just, think about, where do I want to be? Not just, I need a job, I need a job. And take the first one that comes your way.

Jimmy:

I think you touched on the man, you had a, A complete career change didn't you, as you went through this?

Amanda:

Complete career change. And, What a joy, too. I mean, here we are, some

Jimmy:

are. Podcasters.

Amanda:

Podcasters, now. Yeah! Who knew? Who knew? So words of wisdom, what is the one. thing What would you recommend people do when they find themselves in

Jimmy:

My one thing would be just be kind to yourself and understand that whatever emotional reaction you have is perfectly normal.

Amanda:

And probably tied into that mine would be make sure that you do look after your mental health. Go out for a run, exercise, all the things we've talked about, but be aware and take care.

James:

Yeah, and mine, which is obviously the best because this is the last one. Obviously. But make your own look, take control of the situation. Take control.

Jimmy:

Okay, hopefully you found today's episode on how it feels to be made redundant useful. We thought it was really important for us to help open up that conversation and continue to remove the stigma because it is an important part of work and performing at work. And

James:

a position where you have been made redundant, there are plenty of resources. out there that you can go and look at which will help, Not least of which I thoroughly recommend you have a look at the ACAS website because that spells out exactly where you are from a legal point of view. Um, and there are From a mental health perspective there are lots of things online that you can You can find, everything from Mental Health UK, through MIND, to the Samaritans and the NHS, but do go and find somebody to talk to. Thank you for your time Amanda Thanks Amanda. Thanks everyone. Have a good week. a good week Thanks

Jimmy:

If you'd like to find out more about how James and I can help your business, then have a look at our website at ajobdonewell.Com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Amanda Gilbert

Guest