A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Transformational Leadership - A Game Changing Approach or Just Good Management?

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Amanda Gilbert • Season 1 • Episode 34

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Episode 34: This week, as part of our Leadership Series, we explore Transformational Leadership – A leadership style for today's environment, where change is the only constant (if you believe the hype). Amanda shares a model to help define and understand the characteristics of a Transformational Leader, and we all bring this leadership style to life with our experiences... as ever, good and bad.
 
 We wanted to unlock the secrets of 'Inspirational Leadership'; however, we realised that this is an outcome, not a style... so Amanda introduced us to a great substitute that could help you 'inspire' your teams to 'transform' their results.
 
 Don't forget this is the penultimate episode of the podcast (we'll be taking a short break over the summer), so don't miss next week's episode, where we will share some of the highs and lows from season one along with some of the best insights/learnings we've had and a small selection (there have been loads) of outtakes.
 
 Here's some further reading on Transformational Leadership...

www.simplypsychology.org/what-is-transformational-leadership.html

www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/online-learning/insights/how-to-become-a-transformational-leader

www.profolus.com

https://leaders.com/articles/leadership/transformational-leadership

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy. Welcome to A Job Done Well. A podcast about the world of work and how to improve the daily grind.

Jimmy:

Morning, what Morning James, today we are talking about transformational leadership.

Amanda and James:

Ah, very good.

Jimmy:

Now, we wanted to share a leadership style to add to people's toolkit that we thought was really important and impactful and would make a real difference. before we get into it though. So, let's introduce our special guest, our L& D guru, as ever, welcome Amanda. nice

Amanda and James:

And as we keep

Jimmy:

we keep getting the feedback, she talks the most sense out of the three

Amanda and James:

of

Jimmy:

So, we're very honoured to have you back.

Amanda and James:

huge chief.

Jimmy:

So, Amanda, what have you been up to since you last were with us? I'm a

Amanda and James:

you with the gardening saga, I've been learning something new. Have you What's that? I've been line dancing. You've been line dancing? Do you know, what my mother once said to me? Just try everything once in life, James, except line dancing and incest. Let that be a lesson to You Well, thank you for that. Do you know, what? I went in with a, this is for kind of old people, it's really easy, What how hard can it be? Turns out, it's harder than you might think. And,

Jimmy:

it's not for old people. I went to a 40th birthday last year and they had a line dancing teacher come in and do line dancing with them. So, it's for all ages. But it is bloody hard, I'll grant you that.

Amanda and James:

harder than you think. Thank you, Jimmy.

Jimmy:

What have you been up to, James?

Amanda and James:

Well, I have actually I've been doing some work. We well, we have been doing some work. We went and did a workshop with an organization last week, and helped them think through their acquisition processes, so that was all very interesting, I enjoyed it. Yeah,

Jimmy:

I'm looking through their

Amanda and James:

be let out.

Jimmy:

was very interesting, I quite enjoyed it. Nice to be let out.

Amanda and James:

me for the next

Jimmy:

I've probably watched about ten.

Amanda and James:

ten.

Jimmy:

So, today's episode. we wanted to do a leadership episode on a style that we felt would be really impactful inspirational leadership, because I guess anyone who's a leader, that's often what you want to aspire to what you want to be called. But when we got into it, we realized that actually, inspiration is really more of an outcome than a leadership

Amanda and James:

I need to cut across you there. I have been called an inspirational leader once. Once?

Jimmy:

once. Once? No,

Amanda and James:

I think it was somebody who worked at a pay rise. But, that's a gag.

Jimmy:

rise.

Amanda and James:

to laugh, am I? Oh, gosh. However. However, we did come to the conclusion

Jimmy:

Amanda, you had a look round to see if you could find something else that was equally as impactful. Cool.. What did you come up with?

Amanda and James:

with the transformational leadership which we'll obviously discuss in a bit more detail, but, what I love about it is kind of the vibe and energy that goes with the notion of transformational leadership. we

Jimmy:

So, what do we mean by transformational leadership then, Amanda?

Amanda and James:

So, transformational leadership. that's a style that empowers people to accomplish positive change. Usually preceded or essential, actually, is a big vision. That inspirational call to action, that shared purpose that you guys talk about a lot in the work that you do. And leaders who demonstrate transformational style enable change by emotionally connecting with their audience, inspiring them. to achieve things that are greater than the individuals or greater than themselves.

Jimmy:

distinct from transformation programs, which we did an episode on a while ago. This is about achieving change, achieving improvement, as opposed to a program that does it.

Amanda and James:

The style, the behaviours, the attitude, of the group. The, the way of being for the leader, rather than actually our project focus. And outcome.

Jimmy:

There's so much change going on. There's, transformational leadership almost becomes a, the leadership style that everyone needs at some point.

Amanda and James:

Yeah, I have a slightly different view on this. Right, so first of all, let's be honest, I'm a little bit, jury's out on this. It sounds very, would you believe, American. Yeah, it's a lot of clever words. it, is American. So what exactly, what exactly are we talking about? But isn't, how can I put this politely, so isn't this just about good management? I mean, what is so special?

Jimmy:

I think you're right. It is good management for today's climate, today's environment. And in today's environment, you need to have this leadership style?

Amanda and James:

style. So, what is this leadership style? Go we have a rule on this podcast. Need to have a model, I like a good

Jimmy:

We don't have a rule, James. You have a rule.

Amanda and James:

I have a rule. Explain to. Let's go. Let's go. Can that one We just take step? Just one step. We could go right back to the beginning if you want. Maybe we should, let's make the distinction between this so transformational. Yeah. Which we've talked about as being about energy and encouragement. and shared vision and passion, collective energy towards a shared goal. I think what's useful is the distinction between that and transactional leadership style. So Transactional being much more about the transaction between getting the work done. Yeah. And goals and rewards, arguably performance management systems focus in that space. If you only focus on a transactional style, you only get so much effort, you only get so much work done. We're not saying there is not place for transactional leadership. Well, it depends. If the building's burning, a little bit of transactional leadership, is exactly what you want. Yeah. And there are other times when you'd need transactional leadership. Well, what happens if you have got somebody who is very young and

Jimmy:

an experience? Yeah.

Amanda and James:

Much more directive style.

Jimmy:

We talk about leadership, the more we're coming to the conclusion there isn't one leadership style. What's needed will vary depending on the context and circumstance.

Amanda and James:

And that's the connection that I was gonna mind if your business will benefit from a really focused approach around a shared vision, if your resources are stretched, you're relying on discretionary effort from your team. Transactional leadership is unlikely to get you that. Transformational leadership is likely to, and is typified by getting even more so is it just about unlocking discretionary efforts? It's actually about aligning, encouraging people around a shared vision. And one of the outcomes that will be better developed for, Well, let's talk about that in the benefits section. You're right, let's go to what are the

Jimmy:

James loves a model. James

Amanda and James:

the model.

Jimmy:

So what's the, what have you

Amanda and James:

the model? So in the research, according to, let's give credit to the originators, Bass, Avolio and Atwater in 1996 they came up with a. are American. A transformational leadership model. And transformational leaders, according to them, have four key characteristics. So let's have a look at them. One, they call so the terminology they call Idealized influence. So what's that then? So this is about leaders who serve as highly liked role models. They themselves exhibit charisma, they inspire their followers through their actions and their vision. So it's kind of about who they are as a character. So charisma, I should say. Yeah, Nice word for it. Liked, loved, those kind of leaders that get called out for being just a good

Jimmy:

ones that you'd run through walls

Amanda and James:

Yeah. Over treacherous. Really good person. Yeah.

Jimmy:

So

Amanda and James:

So that's one. Another characteristic is inspirational motivation, so they're optimistic about goal attainment, they're encouraging and they're motivating of their teams. so is that just being very clear about purpose then? Yeah, it's about purpose, yeah. Yeah, okay. It's a good way of putting Another is about intellectual stimulation, so transformational leaders, promote critical thinking, problem solving, Bye bye. Thank you.

Jimmy:

solving, challenging

Amanda and James:

challenging their followers. to explore new ideas to not settle for the status quo, but to look for even better, ways of doing things. for example. Yeah, that's a bit more difficult though, isn't it? And So what is that? Does that and we'll go with the negatives, Does that mean they're not dogmatic? What does that mean? Yeah, I think that's the right space. This is much more about what's possible and when we've achieved that, what else is possible? So continually seeking improvements, way to do things better,

Jimmy:

it is creating a climate of continuous

Amanda and James:

right up your street, right? And then individualized consideration. I like that. So they show empathy, they see and hear the individuals, or at least they make those people feel seen and heard in the organisation. They're very supportive of personal and individual growth, as well as the growth of business. So, empathy. Yeah, nice one. They don't use one word when two will do, do they? Okay, can you be a British model next time? No, I love

Jimmy:

let's see

Amanda and James:

I love, I love the Right, keep going. Ignore the hecklers, So, let's see if we can bring that

Jimmy:

about

Amanda and James:

to life a little bit more. Let's look at individualised influence. So We've talked about this a little bit, but this is about walking your own talk. This is about a leader who embodies the qualities that they want to see reflecting in their organization. So that, This is not a just, I'm going to tell you what to do, off, off you go and do it, they actually live and breathe this themselves.

Jimmy:

I think this is one of those areas where a lot of leaders really struggle, because they can talk good talk, but they don't often walk the talk either.

Amanda and James:

I learned this expression once on some training about the difference between your espoused values What you say you stand for, and then your values in action, and for leaders

Jimmy:

this

Amanda and James:

this, the influence in this particular case comes from you being perceived and understood by your followers to actually live and breathe those values and ethics. and it's interesting isn't it because you can actually tell when somebody doesn't want the risk of being a bit crude, the the collar and cuffs don't match, and it's something that we instinctively pick up. on yeah, and it just it

Jimmy:

Think Well, I think it turns people off. I think you don't trust people who say one thing and then do something else. And I think pe, if you're not. Yeah, yeah, they do.

Amanda and James:

Yeah. Yeah, they do.

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Amanda and James:

Ideal influence, idealized influence these leaders become a source of admiration and respect among their followers. So people actually look at them, look up to them for the way they conduct themselves. Well, hang on. many managers have you you actually look up to, would Well, one example I have, I've chatted to you about, this guy. In fact, I think you know him, Brian Cole, who I would From Cat one. From Cat one, that's right. I would genuinely hold up as an exemplar of a transformational leader. you held him up? We would run a training programme regularly, and ask people to think about someone who'd always had a, who, they regarded as being influential or a great leader. Consistently Brian Cole's name would be called out as someone that people looked up to as a leader and admired for, holding strong values, living and demonstrating those strong values and having a positive impact on them.

Jimmy:

You called out for ways that transformational leaders show up, but it, it isn't one thing is it? It is a bit of all four that you, that you'll play into situations.

Amanda and James:

These things in combination. So let's talk about inspirational motivation. we talked about that very briefly. But this is about creating a compelling vision. One that sets the stage for extraordinary achievements. It's beyond goal setting. It's not about those kind of individual, very specific SMART goals. It's about a sense of purpose that actually brings people together. Yeah. and this is something we bang on about incessantly, but you need a Higher purpose you need to be doing something that is useful for something or somebody Otherwise nobody's gonna get excited about it If nobody's gonna get excited about it, you can't. Exactly. Right.

Jimmy:

do you remember we James, you and I worked for a certain insurer and they did a whole rebranding

Amanda and James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

and they talked about, this organization's purpose was keeping you moving and helping people get on with their lives. And they did some fantastic work really moving stuff around the importance of insurance absolutely ticked the box massively on this bit. But then you didn't really see the leaders follow through

Amanda and James:

the first bit. You

Jimmy:

You didn't see that, did you?

Amanda and James:

you? Just dreadful because actually, I mean, insurance has got a really bad rep, but when you think about it, it's an incredibly useful

Jimmy:

thing. And they had, but because they didn't have leaders that then obsessed about it and inspired people

Amanda and James:

Yeah, it never

Jimmy:

It never really did, it never delivered that purpose that, it really set out to.

Amanda and James:

I mean, I think that's a really, really good example. So the leadership behaviour there is all, well, the talent we've talked about is the ability to be able to one, have the vision, and two, then share it with people in a way that kind of compels them to act now this. You asked me about Brian. He went on a course himself, came back from that leadership development course with his early version of vision for the organization, what we would achieve together, shared that put that out created a really, really. compelling story that almost anyone could repeat but actually what was so magical about it was resonated with individuals at the level of their job. So the vision was such that as I'm doing my work, I would be able to tell, explain how my work fitted or contributed to that vision. Do you see what I mean? And, that's the galvanizing effect. Okay, so there's the first two. Charisma and purpose. So what's number three? So the next one we talked about was intellectual stimulation. So this is actually about challenging followers to be innovative, creative, asking them to continually be looking at what's happening in the organization, seeking improvement.

Jimmy:

James sweet spot, continuous improvement. This

Amanda and James:

improving. Yeah. This for me is really important though, and I said

Jimmy:

earlier

Amanda and James:

but I said not dogmatic. So what I've seen in so many organizations is this is the way we do it. Yeah. These are the Ten Commandments on we go. And you challenge the Ten Commandments and you're just wasting your time And it is, well, it is like religion in the Middle Ages, yeah? There was no progress in the economy at all because everybody followed the way of the church and that was the way it was. And so therefore it just stifled everything. Yeah. So that whole ability to, challenge what is being done and problem solving, I think it's really important. And to accept that challenge as well. You know, because sometimes what you see in leadership is the challenge presents itself. It's been invited apparently, but actually when it shows up, not welcome. So that's the espoused value and value in action disconnect.

Jimmy:

What, where I have seen this work really well is I went round Google's offices in Mountain View, and there it was built into the fabric of what they did. when you talked to the people, you got a real sense of their desire to work. You get the whole thing around 20 percent time and giving their people time to innovate through to, having wonderful facilities that people could collaborate really effectively to try and improve their business. It was just part of their DNA.

Amanda and James:

So there you go, so that's number three and what was the fourth part? The last characteristic is individualized consideration. So this is very much in the space of creating an environment where every team member feels recognized, valued, their contribution is understood and regarded as important. Well, sorry I cut across, but That's really, I mean the other three, So I've seen charismatic leaders, and I've seen purposeful leaders, and I've seen people who invite challenge, but actually being empathetic, that's hard work,

Jimmy:

and I've seen people who embrace but

Amanda and James:

terms,

Jimmy:

being empathetic, that's how I've worked. If you've

Amanda and James:

of 100 people, you need to know what all 100 people are and what they want. And certainly make them feel like that's what's happening. And If you've got an organisation with a

Jimmy:

really good example of that though, James.

Amanda and James:

I had a team and it was a team of about, 80 people or something like that. Yeah. And we did an employee survey and Oh my God. And so I just sat down with each one of them and bought'em all cup of coffee and spoke to'em and to understand what was going on. Yeah. And, do, you know, it sounds obvious, but if you've got 80 people and you spent half an hour with each one of them, that's a week have your life gone. So you've gotta be very sure that that is the right thing to do. And I don't think most people are. Yeah, I

Jimmy:

think most people are. Never

Amanda and James:

300 quid each,

Jimmy:

spent on

Amanda and James:

they? Yeah, we're not saying it's easy, but what we are talking about here is exemplars. Again, total fangirl there, But Brian, great example One day Brian actually stood at the top of the stairs, remember the building. at Capitol Hill, So as people were coming in, literally high fiving everybody as they walked into the building. Not me, I didn't nip round the back. Not you. Well, exactly, it's quite a lot, right, to put yourself out there. One, to take the time and the energy and the effort to do it anyway. Yeah. And, like, not everybody loves this stuff, but the point being, are you going to take the time, the energy to do it? Are you going to remember the name of the lady that's doing the cleaning? yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's simple, simple stuff like that, just even remembering people's names. It is.

Jimmy:

Well, I, I had a couple of examples of that. One, I had a, a boss years ago, Paul, and he, he used to say good, goodnight to everyone. Like, literally, he used to stand, stand by the door, there was like the five o'clock rush, he'd say goodnight to everyone, safe journey home, straight home, that sort of stuff. Just, you know, just showing that he was bothered about them and thanked them for their day's work. Jimmy,

Amanda and James:

But that's what it's all about, right? The people feeling like you've given them the opportunity, they are personally developing and they've had your attention. That's what we're

Jimmy:

Yeah, I, I agree with James though. I think the other three, I think they can be that you can either do them or you can, they're part of your DNA. I think the fourth one is a difficult one. I remember once when I went to see our operations in India, spent a whole lot of time there. and at the end of it, the leadership team asked for feedback, and there was about 20 or 30 of them, And I went around the room and talked to each individual of them and said something I appreciated about them. Jesus, it was such hard work though. I mean, it had a massive impact on them. I could see the impact it had.

Amanda and James:

the

Jimmy:

But that's possibly the only time I've been able to do that, even though I could see the impact, because it's just the amount of thought and energy and remembering and being authentic about it, that's, that's the real art in it. So I think this is a tough one.

Amanda and James:

Yeah, for sure. So, I'm feeling compelled to summarise that again then, before we go into the so what. So I've got four things. Ideally, you'd likely do is charismatic, purposeful, not dogmatic and empathetic. Yes. Right? And, If somebody is like that, what are the benefits? then? To be Tons. But one of them is that you get to be working in a culture or an environment where everybody's unique strengths and talents are recognised. What's not to love? Well, I think

Jimmy:

your point as well, James, this unlocks the discretionary effort.. Creates real momentum. a lot of people love working in this sort of environment.

Amanda and James:

Yeah, and much as it pains me.

Jimmy:

I

Amanda and James:

does. I can see this, so let me, cause I can, it's a bit more, my approach is a bit more flat earth, but are they purposeful? Do they know where they're going? Well, you ain't gonna be any flipping good if you don't, right? Are they charismatic? Can they charm people and get people to go in that general direction? Well, they don't do that, they won't get anywhere. Do they challenge themselves and the people around them to think critically about what they're trying to achieve? Because you ain't getting far without that.

Jimmy:

continuous improvement. It's kept you in

Amanda and James:

Well, yeah, for 30

Jimmy:

But no, but it is, you do need that sort of environment to be successful.

Amanda and James:

successful. And then the final bit, are they empathetic? Do they understand what's going on for their team members? So actually, this is, and I don't wish to decry it, but this is what I would just call good management. What's really tragic is it's built up as this big thing, transformational leadership, because you don't see it that often. It's rare. Yeah.

Jimmy:

And I also think, the other thing is, James, it is the interplay between those four things. You sometimes see As an example, I've seen leaders who are incredibly charismatic, but nobody really follows them because they don't have alignment between their, their actions and what they say. So, you know, you see people do bits of these styles, but all four together, I think you're right. You could say it's good management, but actually, it's pretty unique to see

Amanda and James:

four. Stephen Covey's The 7 Habits Guide. The

Jimmy:

Guide. Yeah.

Amanda and James:

expression for this is Common sense. but is it common practice? And that's where the power is,

Jimmy:

before James gets in, what are the downsides of this leadership style? I mean, we touched on, it's difficult, it's tough. It's tough.

Amanda and James:

tough. So one, there is the potential, in the continuous improvement space, but that burnout that comes with it needs to be better, we need to do more.

Jimmy:

do more. We're never good, never good

Amanda and James:

there's, there's the potential for that. And that takes a huge amount of humility as well. That's true. Yeah, because most managers stand there saying, oh great, yeah.

Jimmy:

because most managers stand there saying I'm great, yeah. Yeah. I also think There are some people who won't, this style will really jar some people who just are really, really change averse. they just want to do things the same old way.

Amanda and James:

I think there are a lot of people Who are so unused to being asked what their opinions are when somebody rocks up and says to them, right I want you to improve your work, they look at them like they're mad So you get huge amount in the vineyard. I think that's more common than we even realize too.. I think you said, This is hard. This requires continuous communication to be effective. The leader themselves have to be front and centre of talking about policy, sharing the direction over and over again, repeating, finding different forms to make sure they're delivering the message, keeping everyone on board.

Jimmy:

How do you go about developing this leadership style?

Amanda and James:

question you always come to, we always look

Jimmy:

look at you at that point. Our L& D queen.

Amanda and James:

Bless you. Well, a number of ways.

Jimmy:

One, actually,

Amanda and James:

one, actually, I discovered that there is a, as there always is a leadership questionnaire, a We'll put a link a link in. And that's an instrument for assessing your transformational and transactional leadership behaviour style, so that's just an interesting experiment

Jimmy:

help potentially

Amanda and James:

so do you think this is really developable? Motivation, having purpose, right? You can go on a course, they can teach you how to write a purpose statement. Can you teach somebody to be more charismatic? I

Jimmy:

don't know if you can, but you can make sure that you've got alignment between what you say is important and how you behave and act. So I think there are aspects of it you can learn.

Amanda and James:

it's just about feedback then, is it? I, mean, yeah, there is no more powerful tool in development than feedback, It's paying attention to that feedback, it's absorbing it, and then let me adjust and see whether I can do something different. But the step before all of that is working out what are your values. And there are exercises that help with that. Because not everyone is clear. We all operate like we think we know what our values are, I guess. That's a generalised statement I make. But actually, do you really?

Jimmy:

I think there's also something in having the confidence to share your values and your thoughts with people, as opposed to, I'm telling you that we all must do better. We all must make profit. We all must, those mechanical things, leaders are often quite comfortable, but actually talking about, what's important to them and what they believe and what their fond repose. I think that takes a different type of confidence.

Amanda and James:

And the other important thing is when you do have it, then make sure you recognize it and you keep it within your organization and value it because it would be easy to disregard and then you've lost something. The magic you've lost the magic. So despite your skepticism at first, are you seeing the benefits of this leadership Think it's a leadership, sorry. I don't think it's a leadership style. This is how you should have people show up, that's my point. Okay. All the time. All the time. So you really are converted then? Well, yeah.

Jimmy:

you people. Ah, yeah. That's it. That's it. It's the only leadership

Amanda and James:

Does it? Well,

Jimmy:

we wanted to help people unlock how they become inspirational leaders. I think if you did these things, people would talk about you as being an inspirational leader. So I think in that original conversation we had, yeah, this definitely ticks the box to the outcomes. I think James's point is a good one, though, is it's a shame we don't see it more often. But hopefully the model that you've shared and the activity that you've been doing Highlighted are ways that people can practice and do that better. And as a result, you know, to the purpose of this podcast, performance and enjoyment will undoubtedly follow what's. Hopefully everyone's enjoyed today's episode. If you want to find out more about transformational leadership or just how it should be done according to James, then I get in touch with us Thanks Amanda. Been great again.

Amanda and James:

to

Jimmy:

See you soon.

Amanda and James:

Cheers now.

Oh one final thing.. Don't miss next week's episode. It's our season finale. We're going to take a short break over the summer. Before coming back with season two, but next week we'll be covering some of the highlights and low lights of this season. And no doubt, some of the many, many outtakes we've had. So don't miss next week's episode. We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver, we can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations. Get in touch at Jimmy at jobdonewell. com or James at jobdonewell. com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Amanda Gilbert

Guest