A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Masterful Manager or Inspirational Leader - Who Really Delivers Success?

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Amanda Gilbert • Season 2 • Episode 1

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Season 2 will be full of insights to make you 10% better at work.

Episode 1 - In today's kick-off episode  of  'A Job Done Well,' James, Jimmy, and guest Amanda explore the distinction and overlap between management and leadership.

We discuss how the business pendulum has swung toward leaders and leadership training and away from management. Has leadership become an overplayed idea? Would your business benefit from good management?

Listen as we delve into the role of leadership in motivating staff and setting direction. Is it a critical skill or just H.R. baloney? Should you focus on managing your systems or leading your staff? Spoiler Alert - you should do both and it's not just a case of semantics!

Plus, you can find out what we did last summer....

To find out more, contact us at jimmy@ajobdonewell.com or james@ajobdonewell.com.

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

Jimmy:

Hi, And welcome back everyone to the kickoff of season two.

James and Amanda:

Wow. Yeah, and we've got some great exciting things for you in the next season.

Jimmy:

We have. we are going to have some wonderful guests. Starting today With Amanda Who is our resident and development guru. but we are also going to have some really interesting episodes for example exploring

James and Amanda:

Are you implying the episodes with Amanda aren't interesting? I'm just going to ask the same question, James.

Jimmy:

will also be exciting and interesting

James and Amanda:

peddling, yeah.

Jimmy:

We're going to explore how mood and emotion can impact your ability at work, how to manage upwards. So how to manage your bosses effectively and authentically and how the right amount of stress can help you enable high performance. So we will be continuing to maintain the high quality. And focus on our mission, which is helping you be a 10 percent better at work.

James and Amanda:

Sounds really exciting. Good. And you'll also notice we've kept the theme music.

Jimmy:

Fucking hell. I've been in the second series, James. I

James and Amanda:

talked to the brand people. They said the audience love it.

Jimmy:

but I went to the exec committee and they said the music's shit and we should change it.

James and Amanda:

until I told them it was going to cost nine quid. Moving on, gentlemen.

Jimmy:

gentlemen. Moving swiftly on. Right,

James and Amanda:

so what are we going to talk to you about today?

Jimmy:

them about today? Well, today we are going to explore the difference and overlaps between management and leadership. Our hypothesis is that some of the ambiguity and focus has really left a really big opportunity out there for people to drive improvement in their results by a, spoiler alert, focusing on both. But let's come back to that. What you been up to this summer James? holiday.

James and Amanda:

I went to France, would you believe? It was

Jimmy:

Down in Volvo.

James and Amanda:

Down in the Volvo. I went to Saint Tropez. Have you ever been to Saint Tropez?

Jimmy:

Not recently. Well,

James and Amanda:

so Santa Fe is where the billionaires go, right? So I was I

Jimmy:

stuck out like a sore thumb with your elbow

James and Amanda:

was, I was stuck in the traffic jam. There was a Ferrari in front of me. There was a Lamborghini behind me and I'm there with me Volvo. So I turned the music up. Yeah, it's dreadful place. Goes to prove that taste and money are not the same thing.

Jimmy:

Definitely not. And Amanda, welcome back to season two. We are delighted to have you. What have you been up to this summer?

James and Amanda:

Well, thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be back. So I've also been on holiday fairly recently, actually, to Spain. Very luckily for me, I have a friend who has a lovely villa out in Spain, so we had a girly few days out in the sunshine, which was fabulous. Done tons of gardening. We talked about gardening a little bit in the last series, but, crikey, that is That's a job of continuous improvement, I would suggest. And a bit more line dancing. A bit more line dancing. A bit more line dancing, yeah.

Jimmy:

How's that been going?

James and Amanda:

Do You know what? I said last time it's harder than you might think. It really is harder than you might think. I I've never tried it. Oh, you really shouldn't. It's not

Jimmy:

I can't see James line dancing myself,

James and Amanda:

could get myself one of those Taylor Swift sort of pink cowboy hats. Oh, we all had red cowboy hats in the last little dance troupe.

Jimmy:

The most surprising thing about that, James, is that you actually know who Taylor Swift

James and Amanda:

Ah, I've got teenage daughters.

Jimmy:

There you go.

James and Amanda:

you? What have you

Jimmy:

Well, a couple of things. So I had a great holiday in Ayia Napa. Me and Vic had a great time there. We've still got Ibiza coming up in September, Loved the Olympics over the summer. Watching all sorts of random sports you switch on and there's some rifle shooting and you think, I have not got the first clue and after five minutes you're an expert. This is exactly what she

James and Amanda:

should be doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife, and I hope she's not listening to this, but she got ever so excited about the BMX riding

Jimmy:

Oh, that was unbelievable. Yeah, yeah.

James and Amanda:

yeah. Anyway.

Jimmy:

The lad from the North East who came second, he was incredible. Some of the things they do is scary, the tricks they do. But the other thing that slightly overshadowed the summer I mentioned in our last episode my daughter had been threatened with redundancy in her new job six weeks in. Why do you even hire someone if you're going to then make them redundant? She was made redundant in the end. She was made redundant while she was off sick as well. So yeah, yeah. If you're planning to sell a house in Nottingham, then Royston and Mund are someone to stick well clear of.

James and Amanda:

Anyway, moving on. What are we talking about?

Jimmy:

management and leadership. we have very slightly different views on the subject in full disclosure and in preparation for this podcast, we try to align our views. I think we can align on the opportunity so I guess, One of the points was that over the last 20 years, there's been a big change in focus and lots of organisations have focused on leadership and leadership training and it's become the really key. sexy, exciting thing that you develop in your organization. There's a whole industry around this, of which you are at the forefront of, Amanda.

James and Amanda:

Yeah, absolutely. That observation completely resonates with me. I've been part of programs which have been very specifically about almost rebranding. management as leadership, people leadership and rolling out tons of training and management related events in order to create some excitement about what it means to be a leader.

Jimmy:

means to be a Yeah, that's the risk and that's the consequence, I think, of the

James and Amanda:

Yeah, that's the risk and that's the consequence, I think, of the perspective that you both hold, I have now discovered around the difference between management and leadership. Whereas in my mind's eye, I was, I certainly have treated and a leadership development as an add on to a toolkit, the toolkit of managers rather than kind of a separate and more sexy, distinct skill set. But interestingly, through the discussion, I think I've come to a different place, which we'll reveal as we talk more.

Jimmy:

And we should probably add at this point that the Genesis or part of the Genesis for this ad this episode was some feedback we got from a previous episode that we did on, I think it was transformational leadership and James made one of his usual throwaway comments. James, what was it?

James and Amanda:

It's just good management. Yes, you did. And what was the feedback?

Jimmy:

as ever, James throws his little pebbles in a pond and they create ripples and we got quite a lot of feedback on that actually.

James and Amanda:

Yeah, largely around the notion that in some way we were undermining the value of leadership and leadership skills. Yeah, and I have a position on this, would you believe? Imagine. Right, yeah, yeah, so it's just, it's all HR baloney, isn't it? Right?

Jimmy:

that's impressive, James. You've got five minutes into the podcast before you've got off your high horse.

James and Amanda:

Well, no, I went, I think we said this in one of the other podcasts, I went and joined an organization and they had rechristened all their managers, leaders in the hope that that was going to improve performance somehow. And How does that help? That's my question. So I just think we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Jimmy:

bathwater. Yeah. I think that's an interesting one as well, James, because that actual example, I was in the same company, but I'd been there a couple of years before you, and was running a team, Spent all their time just supervising work. All they did is manage bits of paper around the office and none of their time thinking about their teams and their people and what their people needed So I, in the same situation, was positive about the change in titles to leadership because I think it matched a need to focus more on leading their teams. But the badges that we give are unhelpful because it shouldn't really change your job, should it? In theory, but it does.

James and Amanda:

does. I so in full disclosure, I have also been part of leading a project which was about rebadging management as leadership terminology to describe that. People managers, essentially. But the intention of that particular program was more around, funnily enough, helping managers to feel like the role that they were playing when they were managing people that they were valued by the organization, that it was something that was regarded as worth them doing, rather than just focusing on tasks. to the broader system, which we'll explore a bit more. And so it was helping them to say, if I put in this effort to help my people to feel engaged or to make them feel motivated around the work, Do I get recognized for my effort?

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Jimmy:

I absolutely get that, which was a similar experience, but I think since that the pendulum has swung the other way.

James and Amanda:

gone too far.

Jimmy:

Yeah. And now we all focus on being great leaders. And actually within being great leaders, we all want to be, visionary setting the strategy, never one to translate the strategy, just set it and, inspire everyone and all that sort of stuff. And we've forgotten aspects of the environment people work in need to be managed.

James and Amanda:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

Still, my favorite, just an aside, my favorite job title change was when we all worked together. And at one point, the organization effectively gave us all a pay cut. And it changed our job titles from this innocuous group manager to director. So all of a sudden, pay cut and give you a really marketable job title. Funny enough,

James and Amanda:

what happened.

Jimmy:

Attrition went up. Funny isn't it? Anyhow, how,

James and Amanda:

now so here's my problem right. You've got all this stuff about being visionary and setting direction and. Telling people what to do, and It just, it misses the point, right? Because you don't, you, you manage a business. You need to have stuff happen. And it's all very well to worry about the why we're doing this and the what needs to be done. But there isn't nearly enough focus on the how it is going to get done. And so understanding the work, the processes, the systems, managing that. And by managing I don't mean keeping the status quo. I mean. Making sure that it's continuously getting better is fundamentally important and I think most organisations don't do that. And actually, when you look at some of the definitions about management versus leadership, you know, so effective leadership is centered on vision and guiding change. Yeah. Whereas management set out to achieve organizational goals to implement implementing processes. What was the really dire one?

Jimmy:

It was the, the York University.

James and Amanda:

Yeah. What did they

Jimmy:

Managers are an important part of any organization. They oversee the day to day activities of the business to make sure work is assigned and completed and take care of administrative tasks such as budgeting and scheduling along the way.

James and Amanda:

Yeah, nobody's going to get excited about that, right? But actually you need good managers in the business. But by managers, it's not just about managing people. It's about understanding, the whole system. So, you know, how do things interact? How am I going to manage this system to make sure that I get a better outcome? And getting that leadership, this is where we're going, yeah, that's great. But, how many people are actually taught how to manage the system and make it better? And now there's the question, right? So, you've been in leadership before, L& D, learning and development. for rather longer than you declare to admit to. When was the last time you actually did any management training and what was it? So I think, cause the training that we were talking about before, which was about kind of process work that we did together. So you tell me when that was. 2005. It was interesting when we were having this discussion, discussion prior to the podcast that what we discovered was when I was talking about management I was thinking about the activity of managing people. All the things we've talked about, actually, when we've talked about leadership, I incorporate in my coaching. So, for example, there's a great up until now definition of what management is because it's related to people. When you have a broader definition, which is the one you're referencing when you say isn't this just great management, you're talking not just about the interaction with people, but actually with system. Yeah, and you can't manage a system without managing the people, because the people are inherent within the system. Right. But there is so much more that needs to be done than just creating a vision and a strategy.

Jimmy:

And I think that's one of the challenges between the definitions. That, that we tend to think of leadership as being the sexy part of it. And management, as we've just read out, the description of management is, is always dull. And that's how it's become, It's quite polarizing. Whereas actually the reality is, you need to manage the whole ecosystem that your people are working in. And that includes, the systems they're using, i. e. the technology, it could be the processes, it could be the policies they work within, the training, the incentives, the way they're managed including The way you lead them as people. And that's the whole system. And we've stopped focusing on that. Or, if we ever did.

James and Amanda:

and I think it's worse, right? Because we've gone so far down the leadership angle that people see their job as setting direction. But then it's, right, I've set the direction here is the target over to you, pat? Well, you know, it's that managing well, it's not really managing people, let alone the system. So it's the, how do you look at the whole, and yes, you need leadership. It'd be foolish to say you don't, but you can't run a business. and I just think it's woefully underplayed. So that's what you mean when you're talking about, when you're saying isn't that just good management? Yeah. Actually, you're taking that

Jimmy:

much broader, the whole

James and Amanda:

definition rather than that kind of more defined people interaction.

Jimmy:

think you said, James, that The, the desire to define the what, so what are we here to do, that's, that's if you like a leader's role. And, but everyone wants to have their own strategy. So you work in, particularly if you work, go to big organizations, everyone at a certain level and above has to have their own strategy. No, no, no.

James and Amanda:

Oh, and they're rewarded for having their own strategy. Yeah. Yeah. But the

Jimmy:

should have a strategy, Okay. And then the leaders within that organization should be responsible for translating how their area, their teams, their unit, their business line, whatever you want to call it, how it helps to deliver that strategy. That's not the way that people think, because that's not how we've evolved those roles and that's not how we're training them. Whereas, we were talking about this earlier, there's the what, and then there's the why, why are you doing it? So what's the rationale for the strategy? And then there's the how you do it. And often, leaders just want to say, Right, here's the direction. This is what we're going to do. And then just leave the how to everyone else.

James and Amanda:

Right,

Jimmy:

Someone else's problem.

James and Amanda:

yeah. Somebody else's problem.

Jimmy:

I think if you remember rightly, James, when we worked in a, a team in a big insurer, we got a really good reputation as a team for just doing what we said we were going to do. You know, back to the earlier comment, just getting shit done. And actually, we used to laugh about it because it was like, that was like unique. we do what we say we're going to do. How could that be unique? That's ridiculous. You know, but it was because everyone was focused on, visionary strategies, you know, not actually getting stuff done. And that's where a lot of organizations fall, fall down. So, ultimately, I guess, our hypothesis is that the way roles and development have evolved over the last couple of decades means that leadership is where everyone wants to be and what everyone wants to do. Management is almost a forgotten skill and actually the reality is you need both. and you need both to manage the wider ecosystem that your teams are working within. So if that's the case, I guess looking at you Amanda, how do you go about thinking about your development? well

James and Amanda:

Well, I think creating consciousness, starting with what the observations you've just made about the difference and what your intention is like. Is this a. Well, first of all, if you're going to go into rebranding exercise, what do you actually mean? What's the impact that you want to have by rebranding exercise? But let's assume for a minute that you identify that you are doing some skills training. The art of that is to work out who's the audience? Why do they need this particular skill? It's not about your level necessarily in the organization. It's about how you're going to exercise that particular skill and how it's going to be applied to the task, the work, how it's going to improve the system as a whole. So if we're teaching all our leaders, for example, to be more empathic or great coaches, to what end? I mean, the skill in and of itself is interesting, but how are you going to apply that then in your business for your improvement? the

Jimmy:

point is awareness. understanding the concept of your role within a wider system and then understanding where your talents lie and are there areas that you either are ignoring or don't have the capability to deliver as a first star. And then once you've got to that, then you can follow.

James and Amanda:

The elements of that, yeah, that you teach or train or develop? Yeah, I think it's quite difficult, right? Because If you start to make people aware that they're there to manage the system then they start to then think, well, what is the system that I am managing? And that actually challenges a whole host of organizational constructs, right? Because actually, if you think about it, most people, they're there to, get a good result for their boss, which is often not the same thing as managing the best outcome for the system. You'll have seen it, you know, when work goes from one area to another, silo thinking and things fall apart. So there is quite a whole, there is quite a challenge for most organizations just to even start thinking about, well, I want to manage the system rather than leadership

Jimmy:

well I think, I think also you would be more challenging if you say, you I'm here to get these outcomes to enable our strategy as an organization. And my job is to manage the system around my team in order to deliver on that. Well, parts of those systems are, in theory, out of your

James and Amanda:

control? Should

Jimmy:

will be policies set. Yeah,

James and Amanda:

which might, yeah, are they You

Jimmy:

you know, might be nothing to do with you. Might be,

James and Amanda:

might be

Jimmy:

about how you handle the work, or how you manage people, or how you incentivize people. There will be processes to follow. There will be systems to use. Aspects of those will be outside of your control. But all of a sudden, if you are thinking more holistically about the system, you're going to want to change some of them.

James and Amanda:

And isn't that the true job of management? Well. It is about removing, well one, understanding the obstacles, and then two, taking action. Not how do you work around the system, but if

Jimmy:

that's a good point.

James and Amanda:

is, you know, partly it's don't worry too much about fixing the people, fix the system and enable the people to do their jobs brilliantly. Because actually fixing people, then it fools everyone. And that alone really achieves very little anyway. So.

Jimmy:

end. So when we're talking about how do you develop these skills A big part of it might be not necessarily skills. It's just, it's a way of thinking, it's about your mindset as opposed to actually I need to have a different set, a different toolkit to do it. I just need to think differently about my role and the scope of my role and actually what's going to make my team more successful. Because really, I don't care whether your team is trying to, make Mars bars or handle claims or anything in between, there will be a wider system that they are operating with that will directly influence their results. And unless you're looking at that, you're not going to get an improved outcome.

James and Amanda:

So we're really talking about thinking about management in its broadest responsibility, one element of which is people. Oh yeah, well it's part of it, yeah. And then you describe some other components of that value. So you've got what's the infrastructure you're working with, what the policies you're working with, what the procedures what are your systems, the whole, yeah, who are your suppliers, whatever it might be. But all of those things, that's how the work gets done, that's what needs managing. So as a good manager, being aware of your responsibility for all of those elements, removing the obstacles or at least getting some help with those. where they're in the way. It's great management practice and enabling people as much as you can to operate within the system or improve the system so that they do a great job.

Jimmy:

But I think also the other, the other skill that is really required to operate in this way successfully is senior people in organizations need to be a damn sight better at listening. Because all of a sudden, if you, if you get your people thinking this way, there'll be a lot more opinions about policies, procedures, and systems, i. e. technology. And you've got to listen to those people, because otherwise, there's fundamental constraints on the system that they're operating within, that you are there to help. If you remember, we used to do those improvement sessions. And in an improvement session with a team, you say there's a series of actions that you will take, that you as a team should own, and there's a series of actions that are for us as a leadership team, that we're here to help you overcome them. Again, that's just a different shift in mindset, from I'm here to tell you what to do, to I'm here to help you to do what you're going to do.

James and Amanda:

do. And you've pointed beautifully. To some of the skills that we were talking about in earlier sessions about leadership actually But now we're saying leadership and management, which is the ability to be able to listen receive the feedback the emotional intelligence to be able to To receive something that may feel like a criticism as a manager and do something useful with it So what you've pointed to there then is the skill The skill of listening and really hearing what your teams are actually telling you. Well, and there you go, and maybe that's an interesting place to draw a line into it, but actually, is that not good leadership?

Jimmy:

into

James and Amanda:

da! Hurrah!

Jimmy:

is that not good leadership? Yay! He's come around. So, in conclusion, you need both leadership and

James and Amanda:

You need a broad view of what you're talking about. When you're thinking about, well, both of those roles, actually, so the system as well as the people, there may be a distinction in terms of the skills that are required, but being conscious and deliberate about where the work that you do as a development intervention fits into a bigger system and what impact it might have, needs considering.

Jimmy:

helpful. not. The words we use create the world around us.

James and Amanda:

that's very true. It's a shorthand. Might not mean the same to all of us, so just management might mean something to some people and something very different to you, James.

Jimmy:

where the big improvement opportunity lies. is around the shift of mindset to, thinking about your role managing an entire system, as opposed to

James and Amanda:

Setting direction and telling people what to do.

Jimmy:

Exactly.

James and Amanda:

Lovely. Great stuff. Let's see how much adverse feedback I get on that one.

Jimmy:

Well,

James and Amanda:

that's it. Ring it on, I say.

Jimmy:

it's great to be back. Hopefully you found this episode useful and the insights that we're giving you can help you improve your performance and enjoyment of work. And we'll be back next week with another fun packed episode.

James and Amanda:

And now we're going to see you out with the same old music.

Jimmy:

Oh, I don't actually, I don't mind the closing music. It's kind of cool. I mean, the start music is absolutely awful, but let's kick it with the closing music then.

James and Amanda:

Cheers now.

Jimmy:

Thanks everyone.

James and Amanda:

Bye.

Jimmy:

If you'd like to find out more about how James and I can help your business, then have a look at our website at ajobdonewell.Com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Amanda Gilbert

Guest