A Job Done Well - Making Work Better
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A Job Done Well - Making Work Better
How to Make Difficult Conversations Easy – with Amanda Gilbert
In this episode of "A Job Done Well," James Lawther and Jimmy Barber are joined by learning and development expert Amanda Gilbert to tackle a topic we all face but often dread: difficult conversations at work (and beyond).
After a quick catch-up (including university choices and Jimmy’s book recommendation for every man who has a mother), the team discuss why tough conversations feel so challenging—and how we can handle them better. Amanda introduces the "Ladder of Inference" model, helping us see how our assumptions and stories can unnecessarily escalate situations (including James’ run-in with a taxi driver!). Amanda shows how quickly we can jump to conclusions and why stepping back to focus on the facts can de-escalate conflict.
The episode covers:
- The two main types of difficult conversations: relationship-based and message-based
- How to prepare for a tough conversation (know your triggers, clarify your purpose, plan your approach)
- Tips for delivering difficult messages with empathy and clarity
- The importance of listening deeply and allowing space for emotion—without trying to "fix" it
- Why adopting a collaborative, learning mindset (instead of a combative one) can transform even the hardest discussions
Amanda also shares practical tools, such as the "left-hand column" exercise for analysing your reactions. She offers a step-by-step process for preparing for, having, and reflecting on difficult conversations.
Whether you’re a manager, team member, or just someone who wants to get better at those tricky talks, this episode is packed with actionable advice and real-world wisdom.
Listen now and discover how to make your next difficult conversation a little bit easier.
Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.
James:Good afternoon. How.
Jimmy:Hi James. I'm doing well. How are you?
James:I'm doing fabulously. Thank you very much. What we talking about today.
Jimmy:Well today we have a follow up from our podcast we did a few weeks ago on difficult people. We are talking about actual difficult conversations that we face at work'cause we all face them. And often outside work as well. And most of us dread those conversations. We find them challenging. They're part of the work that we hate and that we don't feel we do particularly well. Well, today, that all changes and we are gonna help you think, plan, and act differently. Fortunately, you're not reliant on me and James. We have got. Amanda Gilbert, who's a learning and development guru, who is going to share some ways of thinking and acting differently. That will make difficult conversations easy.
James:I thought you were gonna say she's a bonafide, difficult person and that's why we've got
Jimmy:Now, that's why we've got you, James, you, you are going, she's going to do some live management of difficult conversations with.
James:Do coaching.
Amanda:dreading it already.
Jimmy:Anyhow. Before we get into that, James, what have you been up to?
James:I have mainly been choosing university courses this year. Oh, so this week my daughter wants to go to
Jimmy:Well, we're onto, you're onto a, like a tour of the uk.
James:yes, we are, we're on a tour of the uk but now we're on a tour of all these places where you can't actually do the flipping course she wants to do. So she's decided she wants to do economics with French, with being a. Key word there. It's 75% economics, 25% French. That's all sounds very good until you work out. There are only two places in the country she can legitimately do that. One is Liverpool. She don't wanna go there because I went to Liverpool. So, no, that's just definitely not cool and neither one's not a sure it hell doesn't wanna go there. So we've been having some pretty difficult conversations in our household about university choices. So
Jimmy:Excellent.
James:what's
Jimmy:Well,
James:life.
Jimmy:well, I'm very proud of you, James talking about economics with French, without getting into the subject of French economics, where I'm sure you could have made all sorts of inappropriate
James:Anyway, so that's what I've been up to. How about you?
Jimmy:Well, I have finished a book, James, which
James:a whole
Jimmy:a whole one, and it was a real hard copy book.
James:When you say you finished it, did you listen to it or did
Jimmy:I read it. It was a physical book. Anyhow, it's a recommendation I've got for everyone now, and it is called Invisible Women, and it's by Caroline Cardo Perez. I recommend this book to every man who is either married to a woman, has daughters, or has a mother. And it should be read. It is incredible. The world is designed for men. It's so, it's not just the bias, it's the fact that. Data isn't collected about, gender splits so therefore the assumption in so many things is around the average man. And, I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't realized the extent of this And anyhow, this, she's got thousands of examples. They're everywhere But I thought I'd share just my, top three. I don't say favorites, but top three. First one is crash test Dummies in cars they're male shape, and therefore, as a result, safety of cars is designed to protect men. So women are 47% more likely to be injured and 17% more likely to die in a car even when they do eventually test. Using female crash test dummies, all they do is shrink the male one down. So it's even not anatomically correct. Second one. In medical research, women form less than 25% of early tests for new drugs, which means that as a result they're 50% to 75% more likely to react badly to new drugs that are on the market.
James:Hence the thalidomide scandal. No doubt.
Jimmy:And the final one I'll share, which it's not quite as life and death, but did you know that women's hands are on average two centimeters smaller than men's yet? Mobile phones have increased in physical size by 20% over the last decade. The reason why they've done that is because the use cases that they have for mobile phones are things like watching sports, gaming, stuff like that. And so they want a bigger screen fits in a man's hand so you can use it. One handed fits in a man's pocket. It doesn't fit in a woman's hand. It's more difficult to to use. They're more likely to get repetitive strain or drop it or have it stolen. Doesn't fit in a woman's pocket, but it's because it's designed using data around men and what men need and men's use cases. Anyway, I could go on all day, so I'll stop there. But this book, I honestly, you have to read. It is, it's incredible and scary.
James:Very good. I will. I've got a wife and two daughters. I probably should.
Amanda:probably all read it.
Jimmy:And Amanda is just nodding sagely because this is just how you experience the world.
Amanda:Welcome.
Jimmy:Yes. Well, I, I wouldn't like to say welcome. I, it is more, I got a glimpse and it was scary. Anyhow. Amanda, What have you been up to since we since you last were with us?
Amanda:Yes, it's a, it's been a while, but what have I been up to? So, did I mention to you before that we had
Jimmy:It.
Amanda:puppy? He's been around for a while, so he's taken over our lives in a way that's completely mad. I think we've reached that stage in life where we are getting a little bit older. So the last thing you want is the most energetic dog in the world in your life. And we seem to have.
James:what you
Amanda:Fallen into the trap of yeah, God ourselves, a little caucus spaniel puppy who is the most energetic breed, but he's really so much fun. So that's probably one of the big pieces of news. of work around good stuff. Listening to you guys and your podcast, amused by your difficult people So excited to be in, in this conversation and adding some more tools and mindsets around actually. Conversations that we perceive to be difficult, how might you go about handling those with less difficulty?
Jimmy:And difficult people was one of our. More popular episodes.
Amanda:Hmm.
Jimmy:That's why we thought doing a follow up to actually talk about the, the actual nitty gritty of the conversation rather than the person. And we thought, who, who do we know who's an expert and good at talking about difficult people? Well, that, that's gotta be Amanda. So we struggle with it. So we thought we'd bring you in. So what's your perspective on, having difficult conversations?
Amanda:So it doesn't surprise me that that was a popular podcast edition in business. I think practically every business that I've. Worked in and operated from a learning and development consultancy perspective. It's one of those topics that comes up in all, all businesses. How do we have, how do we handle difficult conversations? Very often in the work environment, we rebrand that to how do we have productive conversations? So as I was preparing to come to this conversation, what occurred to me was actually there are probably two broad themes in that difficult conversations heading one where you might perceive the relationship as difficult or the interaction in the relationship system as being, as having conflict or potential conflict, which I think is what you were talking about. More in the, the difficult people episode. And so actually some more thinking about that. And then the other theme that came out a lot is training for, delivering a difficult message. How do you go about delivering, you know. Bad news. Arguably. So for me, coming into this, I'm sort, I'm, I'm bringing two dimensions of, of the difficulty. I think that sounds terrible. I don't wanna be bringing the difficulty. What I want to be
Jimmy:Well, yeah, you're bringing solutions. Well, when, when we were thinking about expertise, you've trained people in having difficult conversations, right? So that makes you an expert. James and I have only created difficult conversations, so therefore, your street's ahead of us.
Amanda:So actually whilst we're on that topic then, what from your perspective, do you, would we, are you thinking about when you are thinking about difficult conversations?
Jimmy:So I guess for, for me, when I think about difficult conversations, a couple that I've always. Always dreaded., I didn't necessarily. Have particular people that I dreaded, but the conversations I found most difficult was giving negative feedback to people where I hadn't, hadn't witnessed it firsthand. If I'd seen the behavior, I didn't have a problem with it. It's where I hadn't seen the behavior that I found that difficult. And I guess the other thing for me was when you had to do media appearances and the stakes were really high. And, you say something wrong and all of a sudden it's gonna get amplified and played back they're the two things I found difficult where I didn't have the evidence for something and where the risk was very very high
Amanda:Yeah. And James, for you,
James:Well, as it much as it might be a surprise, I have never by any organization whatsoever asked to be, been asked to be a media spokesman. So I've
Jimmy:funny that.
James:had that difficult
Amanda:I.
James:Yeah. Now when we started talking about this, I after admit on my first Amazon, bloody hell, here we go again. This is just one of those dreadful HR. Courses that you've got to go on about difficult conversations, invariably linked to some stupid HR process, which forces you have to have difficult conversations'cause you're putting people into difficult boxes. So that's where I started with this. However, I know Amanda, what you're gonna say. You're gonna tell me I've gotta get down off me ladder. So we'll get into that very shortly.
Amanda:Yeah, that, and that was a really, really good example of you at the top of your ladder, James. So maybe we should just spend a moment on that in the context of difficult conversations either of you come across that tool before. The ladder of inference is often referred to as.
Jimmy:Heard of. Heard of it. Lou used it a little bit, but not, I wouldn't say I was very familiar with it.
Amanda:Yes. And you referenced it there, James, in your get off the top of your ladder, is it one of those terms you've heard but actually not looked into?
James:I have actually heard, I have actually written something about the ladder of intimate, so I know all about it. I just, I just don't
Amanda:Yeah.
James:very well.
Amanda:Yeah, so for your listeners now we're, we're in the space really of that where, where we're making those two distinctions, a difficult message and much more in the relationship space. If we think about the relationship space, ladder of inference a model created by. Developed by Chris Arris, who was a business theory theorist and organizational behavioral specialist. And he, he referred to the ladder of inference. And what that helps you with is to think about how the situation that you find yourself in, in a relationship or conversation, maybe with individuals or with teams, how your thinking. About what's happening escalates quite quickly up what he calls the ladder to the very top, where you then start to behave according to your thinking. And so if you picture quite literally a ladder, think about the rungs of the ladder right at the bottom of that ladder. In the conversation you have what we would, he would call the. The observable data, what actually happened, what you could see or was, or, or hear what someone actually said or did. So the data, the information, What happens then is when we're in conversation, when we're in a dynamic with other people. We very quickly work up the rings of the ladder. So we experience the event or the situation, we actually select the data, what happened, and we choose very, very quickly what our experience of that data is. So let's say an email was sent right at the bottom of the ladder. We then noticed that there was a delay. In a response. So already we go, oh, that's interesting. There's a delay Further up the ladder, there's then an interpretation of the data that we've selected. So we will apply a meaning or we'll assign some kind of attribution to it. So the, the email came late. That means they're ignoring me. That means they don't want to reply to me. And then attached to that, at the next rung of our letter, we make some assumptions around that. The belief that we're going to apply if they're ignoring me, they haven't replied, they're avoiding me. It's because they don't respect my time. don't think I'm important enough. They've deprioritized me. So the assumption is attached. To which further up the ladder very, very quickly, we then draw alu a conclusion and we make a judgment about them. So that's because they're unreliable, that's because they're not trustworthy. And again, once again, then add into that any beliefs that we've had about this kind of behavior in the past. So reinforced by the views that we hold already, data or experiences that we've had previously. And finally, top of ladder, which is what James was talking about. observation, our reaction, or the action that we take having passed very, very quickly through all of those steps. Is this making sense so
Jimmy:So just, check that I understand. So at the bottom, you've got the facts, and then What happened as you go up the ladder, you're blowing everything out of proportions and talking about your perceptions and layering stories onto it. And at the top of the ladder is the outcome is as a result of doing that, you now behave in a certain. way Which actually can be quite removed from the facts because it's all about the stories that you've told as you've gone up the up the ladder. Perfect
James:Well, I, let me give you an example, not one that covers me in glory. The other day I was trying to pull into my drive. I've got this stupid big Volvo, which has got the turning circle of the small ship right? And some idiot taxi driver had parked across the road, the other side of me. So I'm struggling to get in, so I have to do like a 27 point turn to get into my driveway. So I'm not in the best of mood to start off with. Anyway. Then, so doing this turn, I'll start to reverse back towards this taxi driver and he honks his horn. Now, all of a sudden now, yeah, the action, he honked his horn. My belief, that's aggressive. People who honk their horns are aggressive. Before I knew it, I'm out the car and I'm screaming at this clown who's in, parked across my drive and dah, dah, dah. And, and he at me and he said, I'm sorry, mate. I believe the reverse. At which point I then fell pretty bad. When did you do that for your prep and fell back down the ladder very quickly In ba head. I mean, I looked like a complete pillar, but it's just, that is the case in point isn't you see something, you take a different meaning from it and you know it triggers you and off you go. So there you go. How's that for a
Amanda:That's really good.
James:example,
Amanda:Really good example. And so why that's.
James:my wife didn't think it was a
Jimmy:Well, I think in, in your, your, the other example, Amanda, that James is quoting himself was the, his response to your question about difficult conversations. So straight away he started on the, it's all, HR courses, it's a, it's conversations that HR calls that make it difficult. They don't need to be difficult, so that's taking a question and then building and building and building, and the outcome is, well, it's all nonsense, isn't it? When actually the reality is some conversations are difficult.
Amanda:And, and the point in difficult conversations is that we don't notice that. So we don't see that happening. don't, it occurs and we act out of the top of our ladder. Hey, guess what? When we're talking to someone else, interestingly enough, they will also have then a reaction in reaction to our behavior. And so if you're not very careful, you can see how quickly that act escalates into an argument or, or a conflict situation.
Jimmy:It is like, it's like a game of snakes and ladders, but where ladders are all bad'cause you're just going up them and you've got to find the way of going down things and deescalating things down to focus on the the facts.
Amanda:Exactly.
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James:So I totally get the concept very good at really that.
Amanda:Yep.
James:what do I do differently then?
Amanda:So
James:I.
Amanda:yeah, that's a really, really good question. And so that's why it's really quite interesting when we look at difficult conversations. What made this conversation difficult? of the ladder is interesting. People can kind of. to grips with that really, really quite quickly. And then the job is walking them back down the ladder, essentially. So if you can have people buy into the notion that actually I've processed that very, very quickly, I've attached a lot of assumptions and beliefs to it. Let's go right back to what, what actually happened, what was actually said, and then very more accurately process. What else could be true in this scenario. Now, that's a very rational process. I realize it's not something that's easy to do when there's a lot of emotion attached, but as a tool for helping people to deescalate. What they perceive to be difficult or even to prepare for a difficult conversation. You know, understanding what's my normal reaction or how do I normally react when I'm exposed to this personal situation Using the metaphor of the ladder, it, it's a helpful way to explore what's going on or what typically is the trigger in this conversation for me. And then how could it be interpreted differently if we walk right back to the, the data itself.
Jimmy:And if I think back Amanda, one of the examples I would have is you know, there might be an individual that I worked with that I think was very manipulative, and therefore every interaction we had, whether it's an email. Or a face-to-face or whatever it was. I always had that in the back of my head. So I was always interpreting their behavior through, this is manipulative, isn't it? And not actually sticking to the facts of what they said and what they communicated? And I was thinking more about my interpretation of it and that blinded me. So rather than thinking they're difficult, they're manipulative, actually deal with the facts of the interaction.
Amanda:Yes, I once went through some training, so I was in the training myself, which I thought was really powerful by same group, by Chris Arris and, and a team of people. One of the exercises he had us do then something called a left-hand column exercise. Really useful actually when you. In a, I find myself in a difficult situation with this person quite regularly, and that's almost to write a script. So take a piece of paper, divide it in two on the left hand side, write down what was said in this conversation. Record the actual words, what they said, what you said, what they said, what you said. And in the right hand side actually, how did you feel? What did you believe? What was your reaction in response to? It's quite an analyst approach, I would guess, James, you'll have to tell me whether you agree with that or not. But actually you write down the conversations, the script in the right hand column. Then you write what your emotion was, what your reaction was, what interpretations you made. So you kind of lay out on a page almost. That pool of data that we were talking about, what was actually said, and then your interpretation of it, and you can examine then in that way, what's triggering me in this? What fear, what belief is this creating in me that I'm acting out of as I say whatever I say next. And sometimes that can be, I come back. In full on fight mode. So I'm in a conflict or an argument situation, it could be actually at that point I felt fearful, so I withdrew. I don't say anything at that point. Going through that analytical process, I'm sorry, helps you to understand. Where might I make different choices where I'm, where might I alter my behavior?'cause to your point in the last podcast, we can't change the other person, just ourselves. Where am I doing or taking a a, making a reaction that is helpful to me and influencing the, this conversation in the way that I'd like it to go. Where might I make different choices? So again, it, it takes time, it takes a little bit of thinking about, but actually it's really useful for examining. happen? What's really happening here? that make sense?
James:Yeah, and a lots of it is just about being able to understand yourself. Yeah. And what, well, and what triggers you
Jimmy:Yeah.
Amanda:Yes.
James:then so, and then they're interesting coming back to my, in contra to with a taxi driver. I dunno why. It is probably something deep and meaningful in my history. People honking their horns and just think it's rude and it just sets me off. But
Amanda:Yeah.
James:being aware of that fact not responding to it is a really. A powerful thing,
Amanda:Gets you to Try something different.
James:Yeah,
Jimmy:So we talked about two types of, of difficult conversations that's the relationship and, we've got the ladder inference and the analyzing, the conversation pattern and your triggers. But the second part was difficult messages. So what's your, take on difficult messages than Amanda?
Amanda:Yes. So yeah, thank you for that. So for me, again, linked to everything that you were saying in the last podcast about deep caring, about what's my intention as I go into this conversation, the tips, I think fall into. Four buckets one before the conversation. So how, how do I get clear about what the purpose of this conversation is? Can I be clean and precise about what it is I'm trying to get across? Then knowing your own likely triggers in that conversation. What might show up for me and how do I want to be, if that shows up in this conversation? And then arguably, what's the structure going to look like? So gonna be private conversation? Do I need to make sure that it's scheduled to happen, know, in, outta sight and out of earshot of other people. Where are we gonna place ourselves? How's the, how's the person going to react? When I say I want to talk to them about this, what's their emotional state? Are they ready right now to hear what I want to talk to them about? And then what's the style I'm gonna adopt as I get into that conversation? Am I going to be very matter of fact? clinical about it is, am I going to show up with the caring or support? How am I gonna be So preparation, first of all, does that resonate with you?
Jimmy:Yeah. We touched on it in the past, you know, just thinking about the conversation or the questions you're gonna ask. We just go into these things and if you spend less time worrying about or dreading it and more time planning what you're actually gonna do in it. So it's just shifting that energy from worry and anxiety to actually a positive action I can take is to prepare that conversation.
Amanda:Exactly that.
James:And about risk of banging on about our old favorite, but purpose. Whatcha are you having the conversation for? Yeah. exactly that. what, am I actually trying to achieve through this?
Amanda:moving into the actual conversation itself, so starting with what's the environment we're going to create here? How can you create safety, psychological safety in that conversation? Using I statements owning your message. So particularly the feedback scenario I thought was really interesting that you were describing earlier, Jimmy, if it's other people's observation, is a lot harder. Of course it
Jimmy:Yeah.
Amanda:what's the I, what's your ownership? What's that going to look like in this particular conversation? Not that whole, everyone says this about you, scenario that you are bringing, but actually how I, I want to achieve, what I want to discuss.
Jimmy:In my example when I could say I, it was incredibly easier than when I was saying I, I didn't have the firsthand. Almost rever the reverse supports what you're saying. If I had seen the behavior and I could say I've seen when that happens.
Amanda:Yeah.
Jimmy:That didn't feel like a difficult conversation to me where I hadn't seen it and I couldn't use the eye. That felt difficult for me.
Amanda:Yeah, that. The other tip, plain and clear language. To your point about sort of what, what James would call an HR driven scenario, but, let, let's not bring language that people don't understand. Like what is this conversation all about? Can we use complain, straightforward language? Let's not fluff it up with lots of, oh, you know, how are you, what we are doing here, and all that kind of stuff, which is meant to soften, but actually be really direct, plain, straightforward language. Yeah. that making sense?
James:Yeah.
Amanda:Then listening deeply. At that point, stop talking. What's going on? What's the reaction? Pauses when needed to let the person then react, say, ask questions, have let them be present in this conversation. Let them be contributing. Let they be silent for a while as well, not rushing. What's on your mind, what are you thinking? But having, giving them space, letting them process. and then something really important about not trying to fix emotion. So if you've been in a situation which difficult, you're gonna land a difficult message. IE one that has the potential to hurt someone or create fear, knows? Allow that reaction. You don't have to soften that. Acknowledging and empathizing that that's occurring. You don't have to fix it. You can't make it better because actually it's been created by the scenario. But you, you can be present to that emotion,
Jimmy:Yeah.
Amanda:which is not always easy.
Jimmy:No.
Amanda:to find in difficult conversations is people.
James:Wanna
Amanda:The message, difficult message. Yeah. And then either wanna run, extract themselves or make it all right. And actually that's conflicting and confusing and, and not helpful. Something then about next steps, if that's appropriate, even if that's, let's follow up on this conversation tomorrow when you've had time to think about it or next week an invitation to, would you like to talk about some options right now? Really, really helpful, particularly in those difficult, some conversations. Say you were having to do something as extreme as fire someone, let them go. just creating space for them to come back to the conversation when they've had time to process it that conversation makes the, the initial one that little bit easier.
Jimmy:And just on the next steps, it's just being clear about what's been agreed as well. So when you've had a difficult conversation, so for example, talking out to somebody about their behavior, have they actually really understood it and is there a commitment to doing something different in the future?
Amanda:Good point. Good Absolutely. So in that kind of in those process steps, yes, the bit before, the bit during the conversation, then what the next steps will be, and absolutely take your point there. What's gonna happen behaviorally, what are you gonna commit to, or what's gonna happen next in the process? Both of those things. Really, really important. And then afterwards, for yourself, as much as anything, is reflection time, pausing to say, how did that conversation go? What went well? might I learn from how that conversation went? All goes for helping, doesn't necessarily remove that kind of, the perception of difficulty, but actually it helps you to manage that difficult conversation more effectively, I would say, and as a, as a process for preparing yourself and then learning from afterwards.
Jimmy:So very, very comprehensive steps on how to actually deliver the message.
James:So that's very helpful, Amanda. Presumably there's something we could put in the show notes and if I add those, people can have a look at it if they want
Amanda:Yeah, just some, a little flow for that. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do that.
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Jimmy:Excellent. So that's the messages, that's the relationship stuff. One of the things that strikes me, Amanda, I've been going through this with you, that. A lot of what you think about when it comes to either difficult people or difficult conversations, a lot of it is what's in your control and what's in your head, and what's in your head influences whether a conversation or a person is perceived to be difficult.
Amanda:Yeah.
Jimmy:that fair comment?
Amanda:Yeah, I think it is, and again, back to the training from the fabulous Mr. Arduous that I was lucky enough to go through, is a model that I've I've heard referenced many, many times is kind of two mindsets. you think of the first one, very often when we are in conversation with people. We start or we bring to the conversation. Let's imagine a work scenario where I've gotta come and present to you two guys and you are difficult. I'm on your team. I want us to do something.. So I've already got this whole story in my head that this is going to be a difficult show. It's a difficult conversation. So I come in from the mindset of I've done some work. I think this is what we need to do. It's my job now to come and convince you. So I'm ready and armed with whatever you throw at me, I'm gonna bring my defensive re reasoning. I just justify why I think it needs to be the way it needs to think. My job is about persuading you and convincing you, and. Pretty much, unless I get all, get through all of that and survive all of that, then I've not been successful model one
James:what you really saying is you're coming into it with a very combative
Jimmy:Yeah.
Amanda:coming in with a position which I am holding onto and going to defend and you two I know are just gonna try and shoot me now and all the ways you can. So I'm ready for that. Yes. Essentially that, and I'm overstating it, but it's really interesting if you think about what is the mindset I'm taking into this conversation very often, that's what it looks like. I'm
Jimmy:Yeah.
Amanda:my job to persuade you is an alternative, which is a much more conducive to productive conversations, which is that. Partly I have, I have a great idea here, but I don't know the whole story. So I'm gonna come to this conversation with what I believe we should do based on the information that I have, but it's not the whole story being in dialogue with you, by being in an open, sharing reasoning, of inquiry where I test my thinking with you. add and build my thinking. So instead now of you bringing your criticism, what happens is the experience I create is Jimmy James. What do you think about this notion that I'm bringing? What would have to be true for this to be. What am I not seeing? So the mindset now I'm bringing not so much as convincing, but it's about collaborating. It's about inviting you to join with me in actually exploring the premise I'm holding. You may bring extra information that when I know it might. In fact, change my idea, or actually you build my idea and we'll cover any gaps that I've got. So we end up with an even better product. So what you've moved into is more of a learning conversation, a stance of. Inquiry and invitation to input and collaborate and results often is much stronger relationships, a high trust, psychologically safe environment because now I'm not convincing you, it's an invitation to join with me. When we join, I learn something. You learn something in a relationship, feels anything but difficult, feels much more generative and enjoyable, arguably.
Jimmy:And I, and I re it. It does, and I reckon if you could think back to the conversations, the people that you feel difficult, I, I think you, to your point, you would have more of the model one combative. Mindset and you'd have approached it with that,, but if you approached it with a collaborative mindset, would then the difficult person, difficult relationship, difficult messages, difficult conversation. Would it, it would be fundamentally different.
Amanda:Yeah, the other person feels heard, invited to contribute. You can relax a little bit.'cause now their observational input doesn't feel like a criticism, a critique of you. It feels like a contribution to the work that joint problem solving. And that's something you can influence by your approach.
Jimmy:So, so in summary, if you. Think about the ladder of inference and how you're going up and down your ladder and what's the facts that sit at the bottom of your ladder. If you then do the steps that you talked about in terms of preparing for the conversation, doing the conversation, and reflecting the, on the conversation and think about how do you approach things with a collaborative mindset rather than a combative to our point at the start. Difficult conversations would now not be difficult. So that's what we promised. We said Amanda would come along and share some insights that would make difficult conversations easy. So I think she's done a, a cracking job on, on that.
Amanda:Great. It's been a pleasure joining with you on that. Not scary at all.
James:Say it like immediate Amanda.
Jimmy:She's approaching it with a collaborative mindset though, isn't she?
James:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jimmy:Excellent. Alright.
James:Lovely.
Jimmy:Thanks very much, Amanda. Thanks everyone.
James:to you later. Cheers. Now, rah.
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