The fawn response is a blended state in the nervous system between being in freeze and forcing social connection. We learn to do this from a very young age and it is EXHAUSTING. In this episode we're getting into the trap of making others happy above all else, especially your own health, during the end of year holiday frenzy.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
www.kattywhompous.com
The fawn response is a blended state in the nervous system between being in freeze and forcing social connection. We learn to do this from a very young age and it is EXHAUSTING. In this episode we're getting into the trap of making others happy above all else, especially your own health, during the end of year holiday frenzy.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
www.kattywhompous.com
Hello, hello, i Episode Six. Can you believe it? I know I'm so proud of us. I have to. I saw in the BuzzFeed like wrap up for the year. I mean, only doing this a couple of months, but like six countries. Wow, that's weird. Yeah, I mean, one of them. I understand the Czech Republic. Because that's what Jake is. But like all the other ones, I thought, wow, that's kind of cool. Yeah, okay, we've got some reach is what you're saying. We're faced with eight people across six countries. Okay, this is the sleepy sister Podcast. I'm Elizabeth brink. I'm Sarah Durham. And we do not edit this. So come along and get off the ride anytime you want. That's right. Yeah. So today we're gonna talk about fawning, the fawn response in the nervous system. And I was wondering, do you want to set it up? Do you want to tell us a little bit about kind of where this came from this not the farmers tones. But this topic yields backward? And now, do you want to give a little, like, definition of what that means for people that don't know about that thought response and think it's, they're just very good at making everybody happy? Yeah. Now we really hooked them, right? I'm very good at making other people happy. Okay, so the fawn response is a, it's a state in the nervous system. Just like fight flight, freeze, rest connection, these are all like states in the nervous system. The fawn response is kind of mysterious. And it's not generally thought to be an a separate response in the nervous system, it's by a lot of people, it's considered to be a blended state. So a mix of kind of a freeze response, an internal kind of stuck, freeze, maybe little dissociative, and then blended with a social connection network in your body and your brain and your nervous system, which is, has traditionally been thought to be a place that we that we access when we feel safe. When we feel safe, we feel connected. And welcome. That's like those are signs of feeling safe. And what's interesting about this kind of blended state is that it's like mixing together if you've listened to our episode on freeze, it's mixing together like the highest state of activation. So in some sense, kind of the highest level of threat response with like, the safety system. It's so smart in that way. It's tricky. Yeah. And it's the holidays, right? Yeah, end of year. And holiday season, whatever holidays you celebrate, or don't celebrate, there's just a ton of buzzing happening in the world in the grocery store. Just everywhere. There's a lot of buzzing, speaking of buzzing, my children are home. And you may hear them like a herd of elephants downstairs at some point running around during this episode. Hopefully not. But yeah, so it's, it's an interesting combination of these two things that are, you know, it comes together in order to like, keep you safe, if you think of like, all of these different threat responses as ways that we kind of pre what's the word like, pre consciousness, like our nervous system just kind of goes into these modes in order to take care of us. And so it's so brilliant, that it has figured out like, hey, there's some other skills in here, like talking to people. And we could use those when we're in danger in order to stay safe, but still be actually having an experience of being in danger. Yes, so confusing inside. It is so confusing. It's so funny, because the other day, I started to send you a polo and I was talking about something and the fawn response had come into my mind and I thought, Oh, my prepping first of all, no, we're not prepping for the podcast, right. But I was thinking is this codependency is this what fawning is, and then I was looking at something I thought it it said it had that Word on there. And I thought, okay, that makes perfect sense and perfect sense why, especially for some of us, I know I can speak for myself around the holidays, where I may not struggle with codependency as much during the year there are enough things converging for me during the holidays with sensory expectations. Just it's like the perfect cocktail. Don't be around people. I normally am around like all of these different things. And these expectations that I struggle with that this time of year, more than any other time of year with fawning with fawning. Yes. So another word for this is people pleasing people pleasing? Yes. And it's also important, I think, for us to kind of, at least, it feels important to me to say something about codependency because I've been doing a lot of work around what does it mean to be interconnected to one another? And what does it mean for us to have like, collective liberation, collective rest, and, and we've, we've gotten a lot of flack around this idea of codependency, like, oh, well, your side of the street is your side of the street. And like, that's not my problem. So I'm not going to take that on. But I think, and correct me or if like, fill in some blanks, but I think kind of what we're talking about in terms of codependency is being somewhat consumed on a subconscious or conscious level with controlling everybody else's experience and making sure that they're having a, quote, good time, or they're feeling like they are, their perception of us is positive. And that what we're doing the choices we're making the things we're saying or not doing or whatever, are all in service to this outcome of everyone's gonna feel okay, they're gonna be okay, they're gonna think I'm great. They're gonna think they're having a good they're not. And like that, that element of codependency of like trying to control the environment and the people around us. And if we can't, then we are not okay, if they are not. Okay. Correct. So it's like, trying to going, it's certainly to the point of self abandonment. And that's how I kind of Yeah, yeah. Um, and with that in mind, we can see how that this fawning response feels a lot more accessible for women and people in marginalized communities, because it does have the people pleasing, you know, and with being neurodivergent, and struggling with masking and all of that, this is just an easy place to kind of step into, for many of us. And you know, right now we're talking about why I'm sleepy, it's because it's the holidays, and I feel like this gets where it feels like at least this year, it feels a little more ramped up for me. You know, for me, how it manifests is definitely that extra emotional labor. Of like, if we talk like we celebrate Christmas, if we're talking about getting presents, like, does everybody have the same amount? Or the is or the presence like equal in? Like, will they be excited about them? And are they physically similar sizes? Yeah, the rehearsing the scenarios of people's reactions, and then you're trying to meet needs preemptively instead of being in the moment, and being with myself, you know, that comes up. But that kind of thinking about other people's experiences and their emotions, but not in a way that's like interdependent, and like, wow, I want I want, you know, my daughter to, you know, really enjoy this last couple of weeks at school, and they do a lot of like, wear this different outfit and wear that or whatever. It's not about like, some some days, it's like, you know, you got to, I got to push myself to like, be creative, because she's asking, and I'm like, do I have the capacity? And I'm like, checking with myself. I'm like, Yes, I do. And then there's days or, you know, times where I don't, but I'm pushing past boundaries and capacity, and exhausted, because there's a need that I'm perceiving that needs to be met. And it may not be a need, you know, well, it could be a need, but it's just that, like, you're the only one that can meet it, you're the only one that can meet it the right way. Right? Or you're the only one who's going to be willing to meet it right? Because there are times when, at least in my marriage, when there's a need that the children might have, and there just might be a general disagreement about if that need is necessary if it's really a need and, and how to go about it. And so Oh, it's like, well, if I want it done right, I gotta do it myself. But I think too about the like fawning. Because we did our holiday hubbub stuff a week early. And I'm really glad that we did, because I have had a great week, like not feeling all the feelings that everybody else is this week. But I think about fawning and excuse me how in. In 2021, we had the lockdown. And everybody was kind of freaking out and not going out of their house very much not interacting very much. And for many of us, and I've heard this from a lot of neurodivergent people, and probably a lot of people with like chronic fatigue and illnesses. It was like a huge relief. And I'm an extrovert. So I was kind of surprised that it was a relief to me. And I think it also surprised Cory because he's more introverted, but he likes when I organize things and have people over at the house. And I would do that a lot previously, and during the pandemic lockdown, and then in the years since, even as things opened up a little bit more, I found myself like totally renegotiating my relationship with social settings and with like, inviting people over all this stuff around like, am I building relationships? am I providing a space where people are coming and feeling known and seen and all this work? That is like, am I even enjoying this? What am I getting out of it? What not like, what's in it for me? Because it only can be about me, but like, am I being nourished by this too? And if not, then like what am I doing? I'm just like playing this role of like social organizer for the sake of everybody else's good time. But I'm exhausted. I'm sometimes agitated at these things, because I've done way more work than is necessary to pull them off. And then I have to like smile. And I've always been the one to like organize big outings and big events, even when I didn't have the family that I have. Now. I was constantly bringing people together. And I just think back with this idea of fawning. And I wonder like, how much of it was really about togetherness and connection and being community building? How much of it was this expectation like people wanted this, and I have these certain skills, so I should just do it. But a lot of it is me in this overdrive, highly activated state. Also not really emotionally connecting with people, because I'm working so hard to like make these experiences happen. So I think it is like my home away from home and my nervous system, or it has been historically. Yeah, I would say that for sure about you. I think for me, it's a little more complicated. But I definitely think that is a lot of my experience. And I will say when you when you're renegotiating you know these connections, because you said something like I know, it's not just about me, but honestly, it's about other people be because you showing up as you authentically is best for everyone. Well, I know that that's where you start seeing people kind of fall away because some people will absolutely take you at your worst, if you will feel the need in the room, which and you see that right where you're like, Well, I'm not gonna do this. And some people are like, oh, yeah, like, I like this version of you who is a little more relaxed in present, and it's okay that you didn't bring five casseroles or set up extra balloons or whatever. And it is kind of an interesting vetting process, like, you know, when you allow yourself to kind of take up space in that way and kind of, you know, renegotiate, I think, I think that's another that word negotiation is remind me another reason why I'm tired and all this is that when you're in this a certain level of health, there is a constant negotiating and renegotiating when it comes to this response. Because if you have the capacity to check in with yourself and you're kind of noticing these things, it's a lot of work to then hold a boundary and then you know, comfort yourself and and be on the other side of holding that boundary. I was thinking that article that you sent, or you posted the other day around or it was like a little thing from neuro Wilds on Instagram, about you know I'm talking to your kids preemptively about, you know, when they open up a president or, you know, if someone wants to hug them, and they you want them to have, you know, autonomy over their body and all these other things and kind of running through his expectations, and just how much of those things come up at this time of year. And how much like, you know, renegotiating or, or vetting old beliefs and then holding those boundaries, and then doing that as Mama Bear and saying, giving your kids permission to do that, because you've got neurodivergent kids, I mean, you see, they go right into that response, often feeling like, a little pushback, and they have to hug or they have to show a certain reaction when they receive something. And then you're dealing with like, they're like, This gift is dumb, and you're trying to control the vibe in the room, you know, like, the vibes gotta stay? Well, yeah. And it's like it that's hard for me to do for my own sake to, you know, to like, mask my, somebody else online, yesterday was saying something about, like, that's an inside thought or something like, and I thought, like, I feel conflicted about teaching my children about inside thoughts, because that's essentially masking. And also, you know, being in relationship with other humans is complicated. We went to dinner last night at a friend's house, and it's like, our closest friends here. And our kids are friends and get along really well. And so I was able to practice. So last week, when we agreed to do this meal together, it was gonna be on a different night of the week, and, and all four of the adults were going to be working and, and so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna, like, make a soup or something. And, of course, I volunteered to, like, do a thing, do the big thing. And then as it got closer, I was like, Maybe we should just get pizza. Maybe we should, like, I'm going through all this stuff of like, how do I get out of having said I was going to make this big thing, but actually don't have capacity for that. And I do feel safe in this friendship to say, I don't have capacity for what I signed up for. But still, we were gonna get together and we did need food. So it was like, okay, what can we do that feels possible. So we decided to make grilled cheeses. And we brought some stuff with us, and but I let this friend know, a couple days before, like, we're bringing stuff for grilled cheeses. That's really all I can do. And because normally, it would be like, who's going to do a dessert? And like, should we also have a salad or a soup, or, you know, and I was just like, we're coming over with bread and cheese, and bacon, actually. So it's just just what it's gonna be. So we get there, it's totally fine. This friend is totally fine with that. And we have a lovely evening. And I am able to actually be there. But what was interesting to me is that when we got there, we were all kind of standing around in the kitchen. And I basically asked Korea, she would make the sandwiches for all of us. And so I could really feel in that moment, me. I could feel that little internal horse in me that's like, doing a little like, like, I don't know what that's called River, like, they like hit the ground, you know, their hoof, like they're getting ready to go and it's like, I I will go over there and I will assemble sandwiches for these eight humans and will enjoy them. But like, I don't want that to be what I did this evening. And it's a different experience for me to do those things than it is for somebody else. So it turned into more of a cooperative thing. Like everybody was kind of taking part in doing it versus like, what would have happened which is I would have just been like it's fine. I'll do it and I just would have done all of it. And yeah, it was like a real it was a real exercise in not fawning and not just trying to make it totally pleasant and easy for everybody else. But kind of leveling it is your belly full Are you hydrated, you know, extra tomato, you know, you're just like Wow, imagine if you just didn't bring anything and you just partook in the whole meal. I mean, imagine that that's maybe next year but like I think about when you say this story I think about if even a few years ago where you would have not just up me just gonna peel the curtain back a little bit like so she would have not just done done the grilled cheese or or the soup or whatever you would have planned the whole thing maybe bought everything maybe assembled everything maybe done it then served and then you would have eaten last maybe cried a little bit got pissed at your partner and had a fight because he wasn't getting on board because God knows it was too much work for one person. And at the end of the night feeling kind of resentful because nobody ever said, Hey, can you and, you know, so it's like, If that sounds familiar, like, looks like and I know, I mean, I've been there too in different ways. But so for you to do that, I think is kind of a big deal. It was a huge deal. And it's not like I haven't ever done the whole big meal, especially for this particular family, like we have meals together frequently enough that like, it felt like a good place to practice like, Okay, are there limits here to what I how I want to engage and how I want to participate? And is that okay? And in fact, even as you're saying that I was the first one at the table waiting for everybody else. And it was kind of nice woman, you know, the other layer here, especially this time of year is that there are also so many things happening around me right now that I am choosing like to not do that are a huge part of this time of year like traditionally in our family. Like we every single year growing up since I was a baby, we decorate Christmas cookies. And this year, I did not make them. And it crossed my mind but only a little bit, which is also progress. And I just was like I just can't I made some other cookies, but I'm like, I just can't. It's a huge project. Well, yesterday, our babysitter just like on a whim, made cut out cookies and decorated them with the kids. Fun. And I was like, This is amazing. And such a good example of like when I'm not in that overdrive fun. Let me make sure I'm managing everybody else's good time. It doesn't mean that excuse me, that that might then be like completely unavailable to them. Like they might still have decorated cookies. And yeah, I think it's just that would have been another thing that I would have been doing this week that would have made last night's hang out, just like another item on the list of like the frenzy of this time of year. And instead it was like a nice evening with our friends. I'm glad we were able to do it. And it didn't it actually felt restorative not taxing. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that that's the thing. Also to on the outside of someone going through that. You know, and I know because I've seen it in you have seen it and like, you know, our other sister are all the women in our family. And so when I'm in that I know what it looks like from the outside. And sometimes I will look at myself through that lens, you know, and I'll be like, because you're not really you're not really making the memory that you want to make. You're just checking, like you said, check in the thing off the list. You know, one of the reasons that got me really thinking about this actually, when you ask that question early on was I went to a doctor's appointment, I went to my auntie with my OB GYN who I love. She has three kids, she walks into the room. And I mean, I'm her patient, right? I said how's it going? How's the holidays, because I'm always annual around Christmas. She was completely activated. I mean, I could tell she started talking 20 miles, and that was 100 miles an hour, right? 20 is a lot for a human but like, and so I'm about she's responsible for getting all the gifts, she's got three kids, she's like, we don't wrap Santa. So I've got to figure out where to hide it, but we don't have any good closet space. And then I gotta wrap it in those packages. And like, My husband doesn't do any of this. And then, you know, I've got torque these shifts ended and like probably went on for like 10 minutes. Just and I could tell she wasn't there with me, you know, and I was thinking, Ooh, sounds like me a little bit like, this is relatable. Maybe not to that degree anymore, but like, just definitely with the struggle and it just, you know, I think, you know, I've got clients and talking about the same things. And I just think that, you know, I want I wanted to talk about it for myself, of course, because I know that you will be like Yeah, girl forever, but for other people out there too, because it's it's so easily it's so easy for society and people in our lives to repackage this and really label it and say like all but it's just you just want them to have this and, and to encourage a behavior that really internally is where we're abandoning ourselves. We're, we're kind of betraying our values or we're crossing like boundaries and things like that. And, and it is tricky, like you said, because there are times that I do check in with myself and outwardly, it may look that way. But I've checked in and I'm good. And I'm going to do the thing, right? Yeah. So it's, it's a lot of internal work, but it's so easy for us. If we don't have others in our lives to kind of understand us about our personalities to say to us, you know, oh, that's just that's, you know, it's, that's what moms do, or that's what you know, so on. So you know, does to encourage that, or to make us feel like, we should probably keep going with that. And I think what I love about you and and Becca is that, you know, especially, you know, you're like why do you feel about like, do you wanna? Do you want to do it? Oh, maybe, you know, let me think about it, actually. Or actually I do, or whatever it is. And I think that, you know, the glitter, the holiday bows. It just easy for me to start collecting examples of bypassing my boundaries or like going past those things. Then during the year where it's like, maybe one event where I like, I don't know, it's easy for me check in with myself. Right now. It's one event in the last two weeks, rather than every day. It's something Well, yeah, and like we had modeled for us. This like, holiday season mode. It's like beast mode, but it's like holiday season. You are responsible for the magic. Yes. effects in our family like you are responsible for the holiday magic. And listen, we had a mom who was like, CEO of magic. Yes. Like holiday magic. I don't know if SEO is even the right but like President of holiday magic for sure. And I mean, we're talking like way before yard decorations were even a thing. Kathy Snyder had cut out plywood and painted a snow couple snow people couple and a Christmas tree. We had yard decorations before that was like a thing. too, I don't think I don't remember anyone decorating cookies 40 years ago. I don't know there are people who've done it their whole lives to I've heard, but I'm sure there were some it was probably IN and OUT magazine, it was probably in a magazine because that's what I've learned as an adult is that most of the recipes that my mom used, and most of the traditions that we had, were in some better homes and garden issue and like the 60s, but but the it wasn't just Christmas cookie decorating, it was four weeks before Christmas, she was baking all kinds of candies and cookies, and stockpiling them so that we get up this magical day on Christmas Day of a sweets buffet like out straight out of Willy Wonka. And we could like gorge ourselves on it all day long. It was so magical and amazing. And there are so many things about the traditions, from our family that I cherish and love. And they did mean so much to me. But now as an adult, even before I had children, but especially now that they're here. But even before it just felt like I don't know how this is humanly possible to do all these things. And with the amount of time and energy we have in a given day. And that was before I even did any of my own healing around some of this stuff. And I look back and I see how hard moms struggled to cooperate and to collaborate and be kind sometimes. And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, she was pushing herself to this edge of burnout, maybe functioning in burnout for all we know, in order to make magic for everyone else. And you know, I want different memories for me and for my kids then I think she probably had. And I do think that there were societal expectations or gender norms. There are all these things were for her her generation in that time and place. That was what people were doing. And there's so much that I'm thankful for. And I've had to I've had to do some of that renegotiating around my own, like values and traditions around holidays because it was so over the top that I can't I can't sustain that. Well in that, you know, part of the fawn response is, you know, your beer values kind of become fluid and they just kind of you know, and we've been so focused on that. I mean the two have us, you know, over the last couple of years that the trade off of not being present, it's a struggle to be present. But like, it's not worth the trade off to me to not be present. And so when I start feeling that poll, it's like, okay, and that's what, to me, it doesn't feel seamless, it's tiring, it's, you know, it's like, it's tiring to be in the fawn response, and then end up in, you know, to be in all of that. And it's tiring to renegotiate. And to, like, keep checking in and like, being intentional, because it is not like, you know, I maybe won't ever be I don't know, it's a little easier. But it still feels like work. I mean, it still feels exhausting, because of the holiday, you know, just the one thing after the other, it's like, there's not really a lot of like space in between to. So yeah, I would I hope every year it gets a little easier, a little more ease would be great. Well, I think that that is within our control. I mean, I think choosing to travel or not travel, choosing to do big extravagant gift exchanges, or not choosing to bring peanut butter and jelly to your friend's house. So long as like they can have all those ingredients. Or not. Right. Like, it's, I think the difficult thing is that, as we choose what we are and are not going to do, we have to be ready for some internal activation around. Oh, but then what does this mean about me and about me and this person? And what will they think of me and right, like, if people know that this is the version we did, you know, I my kids got a lot of secondhand gifts. And I do this every year where I just shop secondhand for them for Christmas. There was one year that I got a clothing rack from our basement, and I hung up all the costumes they already owned, and had gotten them each like one other costume or something that was secondhand. And it looks so magical next to the tree. They were so excited. But like they already owned those things. Like looks so cool. But like, that's the kind of stuff that I I felt really conflicted when I did that. It was several years ago. I was like, Oh, I feel like I'm cheating. Patch thinks here about the Pacific patch. Yeah, but I think like, for me, it's I mean, it's some of it is I'm glad that it is earth friendly, environmentally friendly. But it's also like it's less expensive. And my kids don't use things for very long. And I just feel like I also don't have to justify how much I'm getting them. Because I can get them more if it's secondhand. So there's no push back in my house around like, Okay, this is getting ridiculous. But I still am like, pretty restrained with like, I mean, they each had, I think four or five gifts on Christmas here. And it was one of our bigger Christmases this year. But anyway, I don't know how I got off onto that. But I think while you were talking about choosing what not Oh, yeah, that like activation is going to come up, right? Like you're going to feel all those internal critics are going to come up in your head, and they're gonna start having words with you about the choices you're making to not go to a certain holiday event, or to you know, not get the tickets for that thing. And, oh, can I share an example? Yeah. Okay, so last, so Joshua's mom, you know, struggling with dementia, right? She's pretty late stage. So she doesn't really have any idea about, like, what presents all their stuff. And so last year, you know, we decided because, you know, they're on a budget, they're elderly, like they, you know, don't need to be spending extra, our kids don't need extra presents or whatever. But, you know, the expectation was that we would buy them something from them and put it under the tree at the little Arlo family gathering. Because that's what the other side does. Or the you know, his brother and wife would do and we hadn't really had a discussion about it, unfortunately, but it ended up being fine. Our kids didn't get that second gift. But what they kind of the the muddled up part of it was it was something new, you know, it's hard to know sometimes these situations what to do, what not to do. And so we it just let the chips fall where they may our kids didn't really even notice and it was Fine, and that they didn't have an extra gift or whatever. And so this year, we talked about it, and they still really don't have the budget for it. She's doesn't even know what's going on. And so it's like, what's the point? Why are we doing this? So I talked to my sister in law, and I said, Hey, what are you guys doing? And she said, Well, we were gonna do it, what are you doing? I'm like, I think this is a great time, we can always have a conversation with the kids like, we don't need, we're not doing it. We're just not going to do it. Right. And by doing it, you mean buying a gift and pretending their grandparents got it for you, per se, their parents parents got it. It's like, what what is the point? Right? And what are like, it's just like one of those things you're doing, like, kind of just going through the motions type thing, right? And so she's like, that's great. One less thing for me to do, we're not going to do it either. And I think it's great because they don't need to feel or like, Dad, his dad doesn't need to feel pressure. Mom, you know, it's just like having her own experience. And we are what, you know, what are we doing, our kids need to have another president to like, go through this like inauthentic exchange. And I think, you know, one of the things that I like about it is that it also lends to like an organic way of talking more about, you know, choices and how we show up and stuff like that. I was hoping a big conversation wouldn't need to happen about why they're getting something why the other cousins, they're not, because it's not really from them. So now we're all on the same page. So it just was less stress, less stress of trying to explain and going out and buying other gifts, spending money, we don't need to spend them spending money and trying to figure out another thing to give and so so get everyone on the same page with that. Yeah. And like all it required was some communication. Yep. That was it. Yeah, we haven't even so this is really like a holiday episode. We have not even talked about like, the fawn response in like everyday life. And I have a lot to say about it. So I think we need to do another episode about the experience of having a lot of life experiences where you're in fun, and what that can maybe look and feel like and how you can start to notice it and disrupt it a little bit. Because these are good examples. Because they are. They're like one off annual events and things that come up that it's like very obvious, you're making a choice to do something or not do something. So it's a good opportunity to really not even necessarily change what you're doing right now. But to just be noticing, oh, I do these particular things at this time of year, only for the benefit of others, and they actually don't care or it's actually not like adding to the experience, right. So we're not talking about benevolence and interconnectedness and generosity that matters to people and is helping those who can't make things happen for themselves, you know, being with them and helping them make things happen. We're not talking about that. But I do think there's room here for us to talk about, like the nuanced way that fun kind of infiltrates the system and, and how we can like start all these tiny ways in these tiny ways to kind of get to know what that looks and feels like in our unique individual systems. It think it's a big part of healing. I think it's just a big part of healing is like noticing where am I attuning to others, rather than attuning to myself? And does it need to be either or can I be attuning to them and to me, and what might that look like? Yeah. Yeah, no wonder we're tired. I know. I'm even more tired now. Of course you are. I wonder if we'll if I wonder if we'll just always be tired now. Like if that's just like, saying that since I was like 25. So I mean, I think good 25 years is probably like it's it's here to stay. Yeah. Okay. Good. Levels of tire though. Right. Then we take the right name for the podcast. I think we'll be on brand forever. Okay, well, this was a good wrap up for the year. We will be back in the new year. With more good stuff around being neurodivergent parenting neurodivergent kids, fawning definitely comes up with more fawning, or parents it Yes, yeah. And I will have had more Somatic Experiencing training in the coming year too. So I'm sure there will be no shortage. Have things to chat about, but this has been fun. Thanks for tuning in whoever has and, Sarah, thanks for doing this with me. Or I love it. It's fun just easy. That's because there's no prep and no editing. So yeah, and nobody's really here with us when we're doing it. Small like those Instagram lives. Well, we're like one person or like four and you're like, Whoa, pressure. There's like four people. Okay, people is enough for me to start going. You're changing my whole like afaan affected like, Yeah, fine. Start masking the math. Like no, stop it. This is better define the terms. No. Okay. All right. Well, thanks. I'll talk to you soon. Love you. Bye