Why is it so hard to say no? What does it mean to really trust your YES and your NO? We're exploring a whole bunch of angles to knowing our limits and leaning into self-trust and agency to respond to requests.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
www.kattywhompous.com
Why is it so hard to say no? What does it mean to really trust your YES and your NO? We're exploring a whole bunch of angles to knowing our limits and leaning into self-trust and agency to respond to requests.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
www.kattywhompous.com
Hello, hello, the sleepy sisters are back. My name is Elizabeth brink. Sarah Dara, I'm sleepy as ever. We are both coaches for neurodivergent. Folks, I work with adults, Sarah works with adults, young adults and older teens. And we are going to talk today about saying no. And I my Kaleidoscope brain is going in a million directions. Kind of how we get like if we had this topic in a jar that had some kind of prism thing on it. I feel like you could look at it in all these different directions and be like, Oh, this is the subtext of this topic. So you had some thoughts, Sarah, tell us what you think about this idea of saying no, where should we? Where should we start? Well, it's so funny you say that? Because I do think there's there's a million ways in which we say now and and all of that. And I guess I'll start with, you know why this topic feels so relevant to me this week, and kind of what's going on? And I think that will give us the kind of catalyst to go. And then you can always pivot and always change if you don't want to talk about that. So I, so I created two reels this week. And I didn't post them. But I felt really like, yeah, I need to talk about this or whatever. And what I realized was they both were about different ways of saying no. And I thought, huh, that's strange. Why is that my focus right now. And then I kind of took a minute and realize, Okay, I've had to say, no, in a couple of different contexts this last, like week that were difficult knows for me, and I've been in a lot of activation around that. And I thought, wow, I think I might have been self soothing through these reels, you know, and like kind of processing through. And I do that often, you know, as a creative and as a coach, like, if I put stuff on Instagram, a lot of times it's stuff I'm working out, you know. And so I haven't actually thinking a lot about this and thinking about just the degree of activation that I have around giving knows, and thinking through like, well, it's not all knows and great. Can you say? When can you describe what you mean by activation? People don't know that word, because that's a word you and I use a lot. But just wondering if you could you you don't have to be elaborate, but just like what does that mean? Some activation? Yeah, my nervous system becomes activated. And for me, that looks like rumination to some degree, I get a little spinny I get a little a little anxiety, I just I have a little bit of extra like energy, but it's not the good kind. Where you just kind of like zoom, and nobody benefits. Especially me. It's not a happy buzzing, it's not happy buzzing. It requires a lot from my system to sue and get back to a grounded more baseline point. With certain nose, certain types of nose are kind of depending on what they are. And it's frustrating. And what's even extra frustrating is that because I can say no in so many other areas. And I've learned to do that with minimal to no activation and maybe even enjoy saying you know you're in there right to certain things like, No, I'm not going to the movies at 10 o'clock at night. No, this isn't. I don't give a second thought. Right. But I think about, um, just like, this idea that like, I don't know, I just lost my train of thought because I think I'm actively thinking about it. Oh my gosh, okay. Well just notice that activation, it will I was just sitting here thinking while you're thinking about these different types of nose, I was thinking about how I am on hopefully the tail end of like a six to eight week period of oh, I should have said no. And so I'm like on the other side of this same coin, where I didn't I didn't realize in the moment there wasn't activation around saying yes. And it should have been a no and now I'm like living In the reality of not having said No, when I probably need it to that menu remember this should the word should have been your part of the? Because I can say no and all these other areas is that when a note comes up that is more challenging for me. I'll do it. I mean, I've done enough healing where I will do it. But I just will have a much harder time with it, but I will make it worse or compounded. Because I will tell myself, this shouldn't be a big deal. Yes, this is not people say no all the time. Right? I say no, all the time. Oh, the saying that no, shouldn't be a big deal. It shouldn't the same the nose shouldn't be I shouldn't. It's I don't need to feel a certain type of way. But the truth is, my body does feel a certain type of way. Well, and wouldn't you say that? Like, I actually feel like that's not true. Like, at least in society that, like we've been, it's been drilled into us to feel a certain type of way about saying no. Yeah, I think though, the sisters have been on this like campaign of like, you know, taking back the now for years now. And so I think in my little world, I guess, you know, I should be good at this, I should be better at this. But what I realized, you know, in thinking about this was, I think the hardest knows, for me are the ones that are around so that I value, you know, thinking about. So Elizabeth and I did some somatic work this week, and my little girl, my inner little girl has been, you know, just kind of at the forefront, and thinking about, you know, what are why was I so activated with these last two bigger nose. And what was like this the common further, I was thinking that they both were around that little girl in me who wants to ever want to be seen everyone, someone to be saved someone to be helped, you know that that part of me that's like, well, I'm going to be the person that's going to see that person, I'm going to be the person who's going to make sure they are known and loved. Right. And I think that when I'm having to say no, even if I know it's the right decision, if it's around something that I wish I could say yes to or I wish it was a better fit, or I wish you know, it was something I had the capacity for I think those are probably the most activating notice for me. Yeah, one of the categories you didn't name that is activating for me is saying no, when it's something I've previously said yes to are like that the person the the request is coming with a certain degree of expectation of a yes. That's like super hard, because it's like, oh, but I, I used to do that, or Yeah, I changed my mind will or just the like, I've said Yes, before, but that doesn't mean and maybe I said Yes, lots of times before, but this time, I don't want to say yes. I want to say no. And it's extra hard, because then I feel I feel pressure like oh, it needs to be a yes. Because it's always been a yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't even know if they feel that way. Right. Like, the asker. Like, I don't, I don't ask them like, are you expecting a yes here? Or were you expecting a Yes, and I gave you, but it's like, that leads to my activation though. Like, when you when you're in that? Oh, it's just like I just makes you want to crawl out of my skin. But I historically have a problem saying no, as do many people, especially those with, you know, painful backgrounds where they were, you know, not given a lot of space to have an opinion at all about what was was or was not about to happen. And so when I think about, you know, this whole idea around like informed consent, you know, not just like, hey, will you do me a favor, but like, hey, I need help getting our basement cleaned out. Would you be able to help with that so that you actually know what it is you're like, answering to that is not afforded to well, really, lots of people don't ask things like that. But also it's not afforded to children. And so most of us not have anybody but most of a lot of people grew up, not ever being asked, and then having like a not a don't want to honored. Yeah. And so I just feel like it gets kind of hardwired in at a really young age. And it's modeled by a lot of people around us. And so, to me, it feels like this really complicated. Like, how did I get here? It's like, yeah, I got here. Yeah, that's how I got here. It's just like, how else Where else would I have gotten to, other than to this place where saying, it's really hard. I was thinking about, you know, even with clients, sometimes. They'll say, oh, yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, I said, No, and I'm really proud. But like, they're at the point of burnout. It's like, they can't get that. No, yes. It's to the point where, like, I physically and mentally cannot do it. And then it's like, okay, now I could say, so I know how to say no, it's like you do. But there's a lot of stops on the way that, you know, how's this work in Korea? You know, yeah, like that? Can you say no, when you have no good reason, quote, unquote, right? Or, like, I don't even want to. I remember, like, years and years ago, when I was in my late teens, early 20s. And you were like, going to therapy. And you were learning all this, like boundary stuff. I remember, you were like reading boundaries, books, and all this stuff. And I remember you saying no to stuff for no good reason. Not even having a reason or offering one. And I remember being outraged by the audacity to say no, and have no like, What do you mean, you can't do that? Yes, you can. And it's like, I still live with a little bit of that inside of me, where it just so hard to break free from that thinking of assuming other people's capacity, assuming, you know, presuming upon their compassion, whatever it is that like leads to that energy, which is a separate, that's a separate conversation that like the being the asker. But I think now in hindsight, I think about that younger version of you practicing that brave, routine. I mean, it was like you I had just want a shirt that said, No, you bet you basically swung in the other direction. It's true. You overcorrected. And you were like, No is the only word that I know. And it was so brave. It was like, You were disrupting generation generations of patterns of how at least the women in our family operate. And dad, I mean, I was gonna Yeah, the men to have no offense, guys, you're listening, feeling uncomfortable about? But yeah, I mean, there is just this, like this heritage of saying yes. And deny, you know, of abandoning yourself. Yeah. And I will say, honestly, I feel like, dad and the work he's done himself. And the way he has pivoted around that, you know, or at least he had, like, these long stretches of years, where he really was, like, you know, modeled, like, what an authentic Yes. Is what an authentic No, was, to a degree that we didn't get as kids. And being around that, I mean, not perfectly, but like enough to where I was like, okay, like you can, people can trust your nose. People can trust your yeses. Like, that's wild, right? Because a lot of times if you're someone who's afraid to say no, you won't ask other people for help, because your experiences saying yes to things that don't feel good. And you don't want to put somebody else in that position. It gets very convoluted. Yeah, I'm just thinking of what you're saying to around like, trusting other people, but I'm thinking like trusting your own yes and no, is so important. And I think that is, that's an awareness and a skill. I think, I've had to work to develop. And I'm still obviously because I'm in the midst of this right now, where I over committed myself. To that, that's like, where a lot of the work has been for me and will continue to be around like, Can I trust and can I even notice, earlier and earlier, when there is a no? And also can I notice earlier and earlier when there's a yes. And like test both of these because I also this is, you know, here's the irony, which should always exist with neuro divergence, I feel like is that at the same time Time is over committing myself and struggling to say no, I also have like a quick and dirty No, it comes all the time, all the time. And I have an automatic no inside of me that I often am wrestling with. And it comes out sometimes in like the wrong moments. And I say that because it comes out and I end up hurting someone's feelings. And that's like to me, I'm in Enneagram too. I'm like I'm not here to hurt your feelings. But I don't have like I have an underdeveloped break system when it comes to that of like responding to the internal yes and the internal know immediately and I think for me the learning and the work practice is pausing before any answer is like yes that's so true like the being able to say like, I don't know right now I'll circle back like that's a that's a hard that's a hard thing I was thinking about to you even though you just came through this like six weeks of like I maybe should have said notice in these things. I know some of the things that you've said yes to and they're around things that you love and like they're they're part of your value system which it's tricky to say no to and also you have two littles that you just never know week to week. Is this going to be too much there is some unpredictability you know they're sick they're close in age one gets something the other one and so you know, you got to give yourself a little bit of a break in there because you can't Yes I do think that you personally have work to do and like checking in with that like but I think I think your best laid plan well here's the problem didn't have a best Okay, so like you're okay but I was also thinking to that the know you mentioned earlier of changing your mind right and I know some of the things you Oh forget it and I gotta tell you there is a yes on my plate right now that I that I gave I'm not going to get into it to protect myself and others but I gave a yes that was a no and I knew was a no oh yeah and yeah, those are hard to swallow. And I needed to I do not want to it is a hard no. And I have given a yes and and I am working with that because I in trying to be really vague but I'm trying to zoom out a little bit from myself and look at like the greater context and like what this yes would mean to other people and what that who I want to be in the world how I want to interact with my community and with people around me and I think as uncomfortable as this yes feels and as loud as that inner like Oh no. I feel like there is also some goodness for me to be sitting in this discomfort and like doing it anyway and I think it's really tricky because you can be in like very toxic situations where you're pushing past that No, and so I'm not talking about that like putting yourself in danger at risk. I'm just talking about like, what about for the sake of others sometimes can there be a calculated yes even though it's a no it's stretchy, it's the ones that are stretchy where you know, but I think you know Yes, I do think that that's possible and I think that's the reality of life and then what supports can I like you know, call upon and encouragement and but I think that being in that kind of a stretchy yes no thing has to come with some have done some work on Yeah, and you can't really it's not like a regular thing it's like a once a year I have this like stretchy Yes. Where I'm just like the same one every year. I can't talk about any of the details. So room mom or something your school. It's not like a recovery. No, I didn't give a yes to some kind of like permanent long term commitment. A whole other kind of conversation. No, it was more of like an assessment of like, can I cope? Can I deal? Yeah, Ah, and can I, you know, put myself second for the sake of others for a moment. I can. And I like being someone who can do that. And I used to only ever operate that way. And right, that's where the inflexibility of like, oh, I only ever am expansive and stretching and challenging myself and just, it means so much. It's so helpful. And it's like true that's so activating even thinking about it. Even just your experience being like, someone observe or watching you do that. It's like, oh, oh, all time for our children. You What do we say? Yes, to all the time. We're like, Why did I say I would do that? And then you're thinking, it's okay. It's okay. It's just like two hours and go to the movie. People? Oh my gosh, that one feels like an easy example. My my Yes, that is actually a no is like any craft project, any arts and crafts, any, anything that doesn't involve me just doodling on a blank sheet of paper. If it requires scissors, and glue and any instructions if I have to show them or we have to watch a video and figure I am like a hard no at the these little people they want it. So it's so hard to say no to that. And so we have them in a school that does a lot of that at school, we have a couple of babysitter's who do tons of that with them. And I looked for some summer camp options for them that are like particularly like that, because I'm like they have this need, but I cannot be the one. This is so because we are just about to enter into spring break. And once again, I did not plan very well, as far as the one that has a lot of needs. And some of the stuff I normally rely on was booked. So I'm going to be getting a lot of those stretchy, no yeses this week, because do I have a right to say notice? Yeah, but like, I also have a responsibility to like not just let my eight year old just sit around with her needs and not be intentional or be thinking about the fact that she all has all the space and time. She needs something modeled she needs. This is skill building that we're doing with them in this like free space or whatever. And it hurts really bad. But it's like, what is the good enough? What is the what is it? dunloe calls it like the minimum viable? solution or whatever? Like? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, would it be okay with you if we got out a bunch of supplies, and just made whatever we wanted with it? Or does it have to be a guided craft project? Like, those are the kinds of questions I asked the kids when they're in the insatiable too. And I just have to say, if you're listening, and you know us well, and you send birthday or holiday gifts for my children, please, please don't send us project kits. Okay. And I just want to say to the audience, that she totally sent my daughter for her birthday, like two months ago. We know what it was like, or how to draw a book. You sent her that and then you sent her like these creating magnets thing. Yeah, yeah. And she asked me today at eight o'clock at night, she pulled that box out. And she said, I think we should do this right now. And I said, No, I'm so sorry. That was a no, I had no problem saying, These things are so easy to gift. Yeah, we got one. I'm not going to say what it was because I can't remember who gave it to us. But we got one and like, sweet kid begged me begged me like almost every day for weeks, please, can we please can we get that thing? And finally Cory did it with them. And I loved him so much more than I know that is Oh, that's because it made them so happy. Like, do crafts with my kid. I will say and I'm an artsy person, you know. So there are certain things I can do with her. But also as far as your kids go, of course, people send those things because they love them and if you're around them at all, you know they love them. But I hear you, I don't love them. And those little instruction booklets and then both of them asking me questions at the same time. It's like that's the most obvious no I feel in my body is in those scenarios. And that's also when I feel most challenged to like check myself because when they were littler Yeah, no just came spew anatomy all the time in ways that I feel like I want it to be measured. I want them To trust my yes and no. And I want to feel that like what you were saying about when I say yes to something and when I say no to something like even this Yes. That I said, that was really a no on the inside. I trust it as a yes. As I don't know, is superficial. Yes. A stretchy, yes, whatever you want to call it, but like, I do trust that it was I did think about it. It was like, I yeah, I thought about it. And I knew for sure. And then I made the conscious decision to make it a yes. And well, not all yeses feel good. Yeah. So is it a yes. It doesn't feel good because of, or is it? Like? I don't know. Is it? Is it me? It's like a no, I don't want to. I don't want to it's a no. Yeah. You don't want to know, but I'm giving a yes. And it's an informed? Yes. And I trust that it's a yes. So it just is like what you're saying it's just a yes. That like it doesn't it doesn't have the good feelings of like, Yes, this is a yes. And it feels certain. It's like, well, it still kind of feels on the inside. But I'm not gonna go back on it. And I'm fine. I'm not stressed. I'm not activated. I'm fine about it. And I need to I'm sorry, were you so so? Let's probably put the whole like idea aside, that you hit a point in your healing journey, that all of a sudden, this becomes clear. Maybe for someone out there good on you. We're not talking about you. We're talking about just the average person. Having a relationship with knows I think it's very dependent on the season. You're in. Yeah, resources you have available. I don't think about like when Joshua and I first got married, I said no. So much to him. That he came to me one day. And he said, This has to stop. The first word literally out of your mouth every time I asked you this No. Okay. Cory, and I had the same conversation. You did? And I said, he said, it's like, you're not even Cognizant was you just, it just comes out of your mouth? No. Yeah. And I said, Yeah, because what would happen is, I would say no, right away. And then I would change my mind, I would say, well, actually, and it wasn't necessarily a fawn response. It was just like, then it like that gave me the space to think about it, so that I could really decide what I wanted to do. But him here No, so often was like wearing him down. Yeah, he's like, take the time and figure out what you want to do. But can we just not do the know to start and give the pot, you know, like that space, whatever. And he's, it just does something to me. And and so I had to learn to not do that. And I told him, I said, you know, I was teaching at the time. Like, we had Sam, he was just a baby and Jake and I and I said, I'm just always tired. So everything just feels like a no. And he's like, fine, but just don't say it out loud. So I stopped saying it out loud until I was absolutely sure. And then I kind of move on from that. But like, I feel like now I have, there are things that I'm having a hard time saying no to, you know, so I don't feel like I maybe oh, maybe it's just me, I don't feel like I've ever just gonna be an I don't even need to put that on myself. I guess. I feel like I'm okay giving myself the compassion of like, you don't have to have this figured out it just that you're always gonna have to be mindful of Mullis we're human. And it's messy. And it's relational. Yeah, like, there's this like layering on of, it's the thing you're asking me about, and then the emotions I'm having about that thing and about you. And then like the relational connection to you, it's all these things get kind of, like, compounded together. And it suddenly is not even about the original request necessarily. Cory said almost the same thing to me. I mean, he's just said, I feel like everything I asked you to do you say no to but then sometime later you do it. Because it was a lot around like things around the house and and I just was you know, he's like, can you pull the trash bins back, you know, from the trash collection time or whatever, and I would just be like No, and every single thing and here's the thing I wouldn't even always say no, but I had a look on my face that was speaking louder than any words needed to be used. And he is sensitive. And he could feel that and was just at this point of like, Am I on my own here with all this stuff? Or like, are you because I'm seeing you do it or like you said, change your mind. And so it's creating this whole stressful loop of like, we have to do this dance where, you know, he got to know that like, my first no wasn't my real answer. Well, sometimes even being neurodivergent it's it's a nervous system response, you know, if the kids are whiny and like, I just had a long day. And, you know, their timing, or Josh was not that great. The know may just be like a fight. Oh, yeah. It's just a boundary. It's like, I can't, whatever it is it I can't I cannot period. Yeah, it's not like, I'm not willing, I won't. It's an I can't make it stop. Make it stop. I mean, there's plenty of times where, you know, my, the youngest, has been, you know, having a lot of changes and a lot of mood stuff. And I feel myself saying I can't I can't do this, like, as I'm like, walking, and I'm like, I will be able to because I don't want her to like, but if that slips out, I'm like, I can't do this. I'll be like, I will and just admit it, I'm gonna go in the other room, but I can feel that trying to not hand her that no, because I want to be able, there's just sometimes I don't have the capacity, I've got to go take a minute or whatever. I definitely feel that like in my body as we're talking about just that. It's not where I'll always land. It's no, it's not. And I wonder, I wonder if some of it is like linked back to like, when we were little, you know, not being able to say no. And so having some like fight or flight kind of energy in there, maybe even a little Freezy like get stuck with like, I don't know how to answer this because I feel a no. And when I feel no inside, I'm not allowed to say it outside. So it creates, you know, a real dilemma for a child. And you get this, you know, habitual response in your system of like, I'm just gonna freeze if somebody asked me something, and it's no, I'm, like, I'm not going to know how to say anything. I won't know how to answer at all. Like, it can also look like indecision, right? That's so true. Because I think about when if I'm in that state, where I'm flooded, or whatever. And I say no. And this is something I've had to really, really work on since I've been married. And it's been a good experiment. But like, I'll say no. And when I change my mind, it's usually because when I'm flooded, I cannot see myself in the scenario that person's asking with the resources and the capacity need to do to do it. And when he actually asked me to stop saying no, and to take a minute, and or whatever to go think about it, I was able to access that a lot more often of like, okay, so I know, tomorrow night, I'm going to be tired. But like, we're going to be outside it's fall, it's the pumpkin patch, or whatever it may be, you know, and I'm like, I've done this before, and I really enjoy it. But right now, I just don't feel like it. It's like I started be able to access that a little bit more. Because I think being neurodivergent, too. It's like, it's not just knowing the moment even someone's asking you about something this weekend. I can't see myself there yet, unless I got. And if I see myself it's me doing nothing. Yeah, it's like, oh, no, no, I'm tired. Yeah, there's not going to be nothing happening. There's no scenario in which I'm going to be rested enough in the next seven days that I'm going to be able to, like, in some sense when I say yes, it's knowing full well that I might not want to do it when the time comes. And I'm probably going to be tired while doing it. Because that just is life. But yeah, yeah, I, I had a thought and it just fluttered away. But oh, I wanted to mention to like the privilege of being able to say no, and then, you know, generationally, and obviously race and socio economic background and, you know, are you disabled? Are you poor, what else is going on in your life that might make it so that saying no, is not an option? And, you know, I think about the people that I work with, who have so much going on on their plate and there isn't relief. There isn't, you know, lots of resources and supports and places where they can, like, delegate, you know, and shift things away from themselves. There's just a lot of like, must do, and must deal with. And I just want to acknowledge that for people whose lives look like that right now, or, or have or maybe will in the future that that is not what we're talking about like that is an incredibly painful place to be in and there is still room to grow and how you approach your autonomy and your ability to know whether you want to be doing something or not whether you can. And just to honor the fact that yeah, there are times when that is not possible. And it would be unsafe to say no. And there is a so much privilege and a lot of what we said in previous I think about seasons, like when I was just Jake and I and I was teaching and I was in that kind of hypervigilant mode all the time. I don't even think there have not had seasons before that were I wouldn't have even I probably been frustrated if someone said like, we'll just say no to it, or can you say no or whatever. Because when you're in that mode, or if you've never had a time period where you've had access to that, that wouldn't even go through your mind, you would be saying yes to things that like you probably could say no to there's probably at least a couple of choices in there. But even entertain that, but probably wouldn't even be in your sphere, you know, and it's a skill and it's exhausting to exercise it and to learn it, you know, and if you have no capacity, or very low or little and you're surviving, then using some of your energy to like learn this new skill might feel really dismissive of the hardship that you're in the midst of. And I do still think it's worth like being curious about. But I absolutely am not saying everybody should and can do this. Right away in all these different areas of their lives. I mean, I still am like, I balls deep and commitments that I'm exhausted. That's a good point that it's kind of aimless to think like, Okay, listen, you know, could you say no to this, right? Or, like, even like, if you have if you're neurodivergent person raising or parenting, a neurodivergent child, and there are places you could probably say no, in that, no, you still have to regulate yourself, you still have to like, get your system grounded and be in that discomfort, and then also deal with whatever the fallout is of that situation. This is like layered, it's not like a no, just like you throw it out there to the wind, and everything falls into place. It's not like, do you want to supersize that? You're not the kind of No, we're talking about? Yeah, we're talking. It's effortful. And especially if for generations, it's not been available or modeled, then it's like a brand new skill. And your brain has to like create new neural pathways to be able to do this work. And that is possible for everyone. And it's not always the most important thing right now. Yeah, yeah. I like what you said, I think we could probably end on that. Like, I agree. I hope that people can at least be curious about it. Yeah, like, where could I say no, don't do like Sarah did were you just start everything. What do you think you want? I mean, you can, but it was stressful. I also was like, in my early 20s. So you know, it's like, the things I was saying no to. I mean, some of them might have been big, but that's a whole other conversation. But yeah, it was a lot of like, No, I'm not going to that family thing. No, I'm not coming. No, I'm not helping with that. Yeah. Oh, and yeah, it nothing irritates you more when someone else has the ability to do some of these skills. And you're over there trapped in them. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's like the conflict between us. Really? I don't work your shadows over there like that piece of you trash human will just help a little walking around getting up in the morning telling people no asking you for what you want. No one wants to talk to you. Okay, yeah, just get out of here. All right. That's it for now. All right. Love you. Love you too bye bye