How Caroline Elise Beat Debilitating Neck And Back Pain Without Surgery

We share Caroline’s road from years of “muscular” diagnoses and relentless flares to a non-surgical recovery driven by neutral spine training, careful load management, and the right physical therapist. Surgeons advised against cervical surgery for pain alone, and that guidance opened the door to lasting change.

• early low back aches and severe neck spasms dismissed as muscular
• MRI confirming cervical disc degeneration and rupture at C5–C6
• temporary wins from epidural injections and anti-inflammatories
• surgeons’ caution on pain-focused neck surgery and fusion
• Reddit-led search for an advanced manual therapy physical therapist
• breakthrough with neutral spine, deep neck flexors, rib control
• integrating posture cues into daily life, sport, and sleep
• return to swimming, running, and acro yoga with smart regressions
• residual tingling when supine and how she manages it
• hope for young patients underdiagnosed with disc issues

If you are a listener with a positive story of recovery from a serious back or neck injury, head over to my website, bedbackbeyond.com, and click share your story. I would love to include your voice on the show.

Transcript

Welcome And Listener Mail Invite

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Yeah, it in in in some ways I almost forget how bad it was because now it just feels like I have um like full control and use over my body again and am able to do like the things that I was always doing before.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome to Bed Back and Beyond, sharing positive stories of recovery from serious back or neck injury. Your host is TK, a fellow champion who draws on her own experience with creative disc surgery. Join her as she talks with others who have overcome the physical and emotional trauma of a painful injury. And discover for yourself how you can find hope and encouragement in recovery.

Meet Caroline: Actor And Former Yoga Instructor

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Hi, and welcome to Bed Back and Beyond. Before I introduce today's guest, I wanted to read some fan mail. I received mail on October 17th saying, hi, I have a herniated disc story. If you're ever interested in having me on the podcast, I'm a 44-year-old female researcher and I play ringette. And I Googled that, and that is a type of ice hockey where you're using rings instead of a hockey pox. And also is a power lifter. She's been doing back to ringet for 18 months, but not powerlifting yet. She is asking if she could be on the show. I would love to have your voice on the show. I can't respond through the fan mail app, but if you go to my website, bedbackbeyond.com and click share your story, you can reach me through there or you can earn email me at ck at bedbackbeyond.com and I'll be able to respond to your request. I would love to have you on the show. Hi, Caroline. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Bed Back and Beyond. Before we talk about your disc injury, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Hi, Christy. Nice to meet you. My name is Caroline. I live in New York City. Um, I'm an actress, also a yoga instructor here. And yeah, excited to talk to you more today about my journey and what I've been able to learn and how I've been able to um go back to living my my normal life.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Are you acting in film or on theater? Uh in film. Anything we would know?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah, so I for the film side, I've done a bunch of independent films. One that's gotten a little bit of a cult classic following is called Bikini Hackers. And then I've been on um episodes of a TV show on oxygen called Murder in the Heartland, and one called The First Mindhunter. And then I'd say more often my commercials get seen because they kind of go everywhere, like on YouTube or TikTok, like and TV. So maybe in a commercial you might see my face.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

How long have you been doing that?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

About four years.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

And how long have you been a yoga instructor?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

So yoga instructor, actually, I guess it's like formerly. So I was doing that when I was actually experiencing um like the most symptoms from um my disc, but I I haven't done that in two years, but I was in doing that from 2015 through about 2021.

Early Low Back Pain And First Neck Spasm

SPEAKER_02 3:07

So let's jump into your disc injury. You have neck and lower back, is that right? Yeah, that's right. Tell us a little bit uh which came first, your neck injury or your back injury?

Misdiagnosed As Muscular, Bracing And Spasms

Physiatry Visit And MRI Confirmation

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Technically, the lower back came first because when I was a kid, I like at a pretty young age, around like five years old, I had um like hip pain, which now I recognize to be like the lower like sacrum. And it was something that, yeah, I like I can't remember the specifics of it, but I remember going to doctors for it and I remember it being really painful to walk. And then I remember um not really thinking about it much, and then I was in high school doing sports and I would get low back pain again, and but just um yeah, I was I was pretty active. There was always a lot of people in for different like muscular complaints, nothing that seems super different than what everyone else had. And then it was when I was um right out of college that I um experienced the neck pain really acutely. So I was 23, I was doing a workout where I was doing pull-ups, and I had this really intense spasm. And so that was the first time that I then went to a doctor. And then it was for the next couple of years where I would be going back and forth, um, where maybe like once a year I'd get like really intense neck pain where I would being wouldn't be able to turn my neck. And I would feel it through like the shoulder, through the like neck muscles, through the traps. And because it had occurred originally was exercising, the first doctor that I went to was an orthopedist, and they diagnosed it as exercise induced and muscular. And then over the next couple of years, I just kept going to acupuncture, massage therapist, and I was I was doing yoga as well. So um trying to just like stretch it out. And at that point, yeah, the low back pain like responded really well to yoga. I would say I was still getting that. Um, but it so I I went through the experience where for a number of years um I thought and I was diagnosed as it being strictly muscular and from being of like kind of overuse injuries and not of anything else until it got really severe a couple years ago. And um that was the first time that because I had gone through a couple of years where usually like once or twice a year I'd wear a neck brace because it would just like my neck would be so frozen, like I couldn't turn left, I couldn't turn right, and it would be really uncomfortable, really painful throughout the day. But I would just like throw in a neck brace for a week and then it would usually start to come back down. And then I had a couple years ago where that happened, but then it kept happening. I would take the neck brace off. I'd almost immediately have really bad muscle spasm where I would feel like totally paralyzed, um, where or like like I couldn't just I couldn't move at all. I couldn't lift anything, I couldn't carry anything like a purse. And then like sitting up was really painful. Like um, and that over a couple of episodes got worse and worse, where then it started moving into like lying down was painful, breathing was painful, eating was painful. And then I finally was like, okay, I think I should see a doctor. Like I don't know what doctor sees this, but I was like, I had gone to you know my like thousandth acupuncture session, I got in a massage, and then after the like the second time that the massage didn't work and the acupuncture didn't work, then I finally Googled like what to do for neck pain, and I ended up seeing a physiatrist. Okay. And I happened to choose a physiatrist at um a spine like specialized place uh in midtown in Manhattan. Um, I guess also with yeah, with neck pain. I was like, I was like, okay, neck physiotrist chose that. And then I walked in and I and I, as soon as I spoke to them, they immediately were like, this is uh sounds like a nerve issue, and it sounds like it's one of your discs because of the way that I was describing that it was um painful to breathe and eating, and that it was just like constant at that point. So that was, yeah, like after a couple of years of that, the first time that anyone even mentioned that I should get an MRI or imaging done.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Right. I don't think I've ever heard someone complain about it being painful to breathe. Something you have to do, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, that was so I it was for me, it was like getting to that point of I was just like, okay, all my other and at that point too, I had purchased like um like STEM machine, like the like those STEM pads with like use at home. And so I was kind of yeah, I was like still treating everything of like, okay, how would I treat like a muscular injury, like icing, heating, doing a lot of stim, um, massage, yeah. And but yeah, then once it got to the point where I was like, oh, it's not just like turning my head or moving my arm or something, it was just breathing.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Did the physio was he able to get you an MRI or did he have to send you to a doctor to then order the MRI?

Epidural Injections And Partial Relief

Active Life, Setbacks, And Limits In LA

SPEAKER_01 8:18

I had to go get an MRI out of um their office. They didn't have, they had x-rays in their office, they didn't have MRI because they weren't set up that way. So yeah, I got the MRI, um which yeah, because then the way like the treatment I had from there was I got an MRI so they could see exactly like which area was affected. So for me, it was my C5, C6. And then I did um some cortisone injections, and so they did that as an epidural. Um, so I had that done um four times over the course of two years. And yeah, and then it was during that time that it really like, yeah. I feel like once it got from the time where I couldn't, you know, it was like so painful that I like the breathing and eating was affected. That took probably another like six months to just kind of get back to normal of like just not having like a constant feeling of like pain in like in the muscles and like the back of my neck and my shoulder. That's the only thing they were doing at that office was they they had mentioned I could do something with like platelet, platelets and plasma, like getting your own like plasma injected. Um and I yeah, I was still really active at this point. I was still teaching yoga. So it was just like I was and I was getting a lot of massage done. So that that combination worked for a while. Um, but then ultimately it was about like two years after that that then um I because I had gotten to a place where my body had like calmed down, I was I was like not experiencing pain. I started working out again, like at a the level that I had been at before, at least trying to. And then one a day, like one of those workouts like just kind of re-triggered everything. And then for about another year, it felt like it didn't um it never really stopped. Um it felt like yeah, I was just taking anti-inflammatories all the time. Um, and I also had um like through that doctor been taking um like like human growth hormone for for anti-inflammatory. Um so I was like that worked for like for like a year. I'd be like, okay, like I feel great when I take this and I can just kind of do what I want to do, which was like doing a lot of yoga, doing a lot of swimming, surfing. Um, like at this point, um it I was living in Mexico for a while. So I was like very active or you know on the beach. And then gradually over time too, like right, that's sort of sort of stopped work, became ineffective. And I had to really limit again my movement, where I spent, I think probably like close to six months where I'd like I would go swimming and I stopped swimming using my arms because it just always made my neck hurt. So I just started, I would still swim, but I would just kick. Yeah. And and I so I was like finding a workaround for everything. But then it kind of got to the point where um at this point I was living in LA and I was like, okay, I think I need to see someone else again. My insurance in LA, I was like very limited on the doctors who took it. So I was pretty much waiting for weeks to see, you know, one specialist. And um in that same time, I ended up um, yeah, getting to the point where it's like carrying a purse would be really bad. So like just even a small purse, I would like it's it always affected my left side. So I'd always go to the right side. Um, but yeah, I was like having to be very cognizant of since I was in LA at that time, I was driving because usually in New York City I'm not driving, but it was just kind of trying to like turn to check my blind spot was I'd have to turn my whole body. Oh wow. Um, which yeah, not great when you're driving, you're just trying to do like quick movements.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Yeah.

When Surgery Was Considered Then Ruled Out

SPEAKER_01 12:14

And ultimately I ended up coming back to New York for a visit and staying here. Cause then when I, you know, I had the same physiotr, or I had the same physiatrist now for a couple of years who had given me like the four cortisone injections. And after the fourth one, they were like, okay, if it's not doing anything, we're not gonna keep doing them because that's not how they're meant to be administered. And then they were concerned that my at the same time, like the neck wasn't responding to anything, my low back was getting more severe, I was getting like sciatica pain. Okay, and I was getting sciatica pain kind of all the time. It could be like lying down, I could be walking. Um, and then they were like, well, maybe you should see a surgeon. So then I started consulting surgeons in New York City. Okay. And yeah, and then like, and at this point too, I think I forgot to mention I had done physical therapy too, like at the time from even before I saw a physiatrist a couple years before. I had tried to go to physical therapy and I found that certain ones I would get like a flare-up and it would be worse. So then I would, you know, want to stop doing it again. And then yeah, and that but overall I just wasn't seeing anything that made a difference. And this came into play because then when I was seeing surgeons, they were all, especially for anything with the neck, like very um cautious about doing any surgery there. Um, because like I'm sure as you've heard, like for pain, it's very like I guess they told me the goal of surgery is to protect the nerve function, but it doesn't necessarily mean it'll relieve pain. So it might still be muscular pain. Yeah, exactly. Like you could have surgery and then still be in pain. And I was like, Yeah. And I I had done, you know, a bunch of nerve testing at this point too. And they're like, well, your nerves are not affected, which is great. Um, because at this point, the like the last imaging I had done in like 2023 was showing that I so I had like my C5, C6 was desiccated. Oh wow, so it had, yeah, they're young for that. Yeah, so it's um, I guess like around probably around 23 was when it had bulged, and then I think the time when it got really painful, they think it just did it like it was a full rupture, and that's why it was so painful compared to before.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah.

Family History And Underdiagnosed Young Patients

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Um, but then yeah, in 2023 was also they said my C6C7 was affected, and then my um S5L1. And everything for me also is to the left side. So like all the like diss stuff is happening to the left side, all the like symptoms pretty much happen to the left side. And yeah, that's so I I mean I did learn from that. Like I have a family history of this. So it's like my mom's had this for a long time. My like my sister, my brother have similar things, like not as intense as me. Um, throughout the years that I've had this, I've seen this actually happen with other people of like during that really intense flare-up I had a couple years ago. I was um like I was dating someone who was also like really fit, really active, and he was kind of complaining of the same things. He'd be like, Yeah, I like just tried to do a couple push-ups and like I can't turn my neck. And he then ended up actually going to seeing my doctor. And he was like about the same age, like he was in his 20s, and he like was able to catch it early though, and then start going to physical therapy and like a chiropractor to go um, yeah, like uh work work through it. So then I started noticing, I was like, Oh, yeah, I think there are actually a lot of younger people who get this and they don't get diagnosed because like no one assumes that someone in their 20s is going to have a disc issue, it's usually associated with being older and being like a condition of just like wear and tear of life.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yes, yes. I see that a lot on Reddit that a lot of the younger people feel waved off by their doctors and they really have to play from themselves.

Arm Tingling, Wrist Pain, And Nerve Links

Reddit Crowdsourcing To Find The Right PT

The Breakthrough: Neutral Spine And Alignment

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, exactly exactly. And like now that like I'm I'm aware of the symptoms, so even if people describe it to me, I'll like explain to them like what's going on, and that it'll be something like they didn't even consider. Um, but definitely I was just like, yeah, there are just a lot of people for whatever reason, like genetics, um, like their discs are affected at an early age, and they're not getting the help or the treatment for it that they need, or what that would be helpful. And did you have symptoms going down your arm, or was it yeah strictly your shoulders? Yeah, so the like my main symptoms they'd say were like like neck with like trapezius muscle, like the upper part, like going down into the shoulder blade, yeah. But then um I'd get on my left side again, like um numbness entangling going down my arm into my hand. And um then I also so now that I've been able to kind of like connect all these things for years when I was teaching yoga, I'd always have wrist pain. And it, you know, it's just like I was always trying different things because I was like, what am I like, what am I doing to my wrists that like they're painful? And then now that I know it's from the nerve, it was like, oh, okay, actually, this wrist pain is because of my neck pain, and it's the nerve that's passing through here that's giving me these wrist symptoms, whereas like my actual wrist in itself is fine. It's just like the nerve is um getting pinched in my neck, and then I I feel it down in my like fingertips and in my wrist. So I still get that now. So that's like one of the things I'd say, like right now, I'm in a very good place. Um, like what ultimately worked for me was in after 2023, I saw a bunch of surgeons and I spoke with like a bunch of people on second opinions. And when I was describing to them what was helpful to me and what wasn't, one of the things I described that would be helpful is I would take like contrast baths, so like hot, cold and doing things like that. And so I had one one doctor was just like, okay, like this is this is your muscles then. And at the same time, I was like, okay, no, well, it's like I'm going to these other people, they're looking at my images and they're seeing on my images that I'm getting um like osteoarthritis because of the desiccated discs. The bones of the vertebrae are actually rubbing together. So there's a lot of inflammation, and then like this is pinched, and like so. I my like how it had been explained to me was just that I was like, okay, your one of your discs has collapsed, the other one's pinched. Your vertebrae, your discs are you know, they're like this forever, right? Like they're not gonna change back, and that's where the pain's coming from. So then yeah, I had it's like two different doctors. One one who I like really thought was being really dismissive. So I he was just being very abrupt about it, of just kind of being like, Well, it's your muscles, like you're fine, you don't need to be talking to us. And then another one who broke it down in a way that was like um like yeah, he was just like better at conveying it to me, like uh in a in a way that wasn't like that was more helpful to kind of redirect me of being like, I think you can get help through physical therapy. Okay, and then that's actually where I went to Reddit because I was just like, okay, um I'm gonna crowdsource this. Right. And and I I posted on Reddit and I described everything that I had done, which is you know, like that list I described to you over the years of doing like different injections and the doing physical therapy, going to a chiropractor, going to um like doing massage, doing like taking anti-inflammatories, doing like the stim, doing high spaps, heat, like getting those stretching things and like for um decompression. And then someone wrote in like you should get a physical look for a physical therapist that is um one of these two certifications. And I'm forgetting what they are, it was like A O M P T, something else, and none of them were specific to spine. I think it was just like additional certifications that they could have. And then if you looked through these like physical therapy, I guess, registrations and databases, the ones who had that registration would be in there. So I went through and I just looked for the ones in my area that came up on those databases and I pulled all their emails and I just sent out a bunch of emails just being like, Do you take my insurance and can I get an appointment?

SPEAKER_02 20:49

You're making me want to send my husband for uh a cervical MRI because he is to the point now where he's he goes and gets a massage every two weeks because the pain in his shoulder just becomes so intense. And he's got he's got all these different, you know, right next to me, these different things to roll his neck. He's got that plastic pillow to decompress his neck. And he hasn't had any images yet.

Returning To Swimming, Running, And Acro Yoga

Living Mostly Pain-Free With One Remnant Symptom

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah, it's uh I I yeah, it's exactly this. Like I know that story very well. It was like, and like the two-week thing, especially, because you would just, if you're thinking it's your muscles, you'd be like, okay, like you give it a little, like a week to to chill out, and then you're like the next week, you're like, all right, I must be ready to work out again. And then almost immediately your body's like, no, um, because it's not the muscles. So it's definitely worth looking into. Um, but also like the type of thing I like, like I mentioned with that um like like the guy I was dating when I first got an MRI done. I actually don't even know if he even got an MRI done because I think they were told him, like, either way, the treatment is gonna be the same. They're like, we're gonna do like posture and physical therapy and massage. And so they're like, it's less important to know exactly which disc because he wasn't a candidate for doing the injections. So, but like talking to someone knowledgeable, I th and that's and actually the like for me getting the script for PT was the most helpful because I after I found like kind of by luck, like so I emailed all these people, right? And then someone who was where like very close to where I live in Brooklyn got back to me, and then they're also like, we also take your insurance. And I went in, and then pretty much within like one visit, I knew right away I was gonna really like working with this guy because I he was looking at it definitely as like a whole body approach, but there were there's also just things where because it's like I had always gone to PT and they were like doing things being like, Oh, we need to strengthen your your neck muscles, right? So you're like supporting this so it's not putting pressure on your disc as much. And but it was done in a very kind of blanket of like, okay, let's do these general exercises. And I remember he came in and he looked at me and he was just kind of like, okay, he's like, Can you just like pull your chin back? And I was like, Yeah. And he's like, Okay, and then he, you know, showing me like how it was in the mirror. He's like, he's like, Yeah, he's like, basically, your neck is going forward, so you're getting all this strain back here. And this like this like muscle strain is contributing to the pressure down on the disc and on your vertebrae and in your neck. And that was the first time in years that anyone had just been like, oh, you have this very common thing, right? Like this tech neck, like forward neck, and um, you're out of alignment. Okay. And and then that was the like for me, like as it was as simple as alignment. Like I um, again, with me being a yoga instructor, I have a very flexible back. So I'd always be walking around with like uh like kind of a back bend. And then he was like, he's like, Yeah, like your lower back, you're also, you know, crunching your lower back because you're basically walking around. And then once he kind of put it all together, I was like, I was like, I was like, oh yeah, like I'm doing this all the time, thinking like this is good posture, right? Where it looks good, but I'm doing like too much because then I'm I'm past neutral and I am like my neck is going forward, but my shoulders and everything are going back. So my lower back's getting crunched. I'm doing this when I'm walking, I'm doing this when I'm running, I was doing this when I was swimming, even things like that where I was like, yeah, because it was like after a couple weeks working with him, I went back to swimming, like where for a year I wasn't using my arms or anything. I went back to swimming, no problem with my arms because even when I was swimming, I had to like pull my neck in and then stop arching my back.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Um so he was able to train you how to have a neutral spine.

Surgical Realities For Cervical And Lumbar Discs

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah, that was pretty much it. It was like training neutral spine and core. And so it is something I'm still like I I'm you know, this is now two years later. I'm still thinking about it like all the time. Some of it's become muscle memory, which is great, but I just but then it's like it's stuff I can use, and then it's for me, it's like been the most effective thing. I've been able to actually go back to being just like normal level of activity, lifting up a suitcase, lifting up grocery grocery bags, no problem, working out. Um, definitely kind of like modified still because there's certain things like say doing a push-up, like I'm still doing push-ups. Like before I was doing a push-up like fully, now I do push-ups on my knees, but it's because I see like how the being out of alignment and how I was doing that even in there. And I then it's just like, okay, my like my muscles weren't built up to be able to do it in the form that is not gonna cause me pain. So I'm just you know, doing it again, like slowly, building up over time. So I then I don't reaggravate anything. Um, but but yeah, I've gone back to then I was, you know, I'm I'm like I'm not teaching yoga anymore, but I started doing acro yoga again, which is something that I'd really enjoyed, like the partner yoga. Like a year ago, I'd even done a show in New York, um, like a full performance. Um, and then gone back to like I used to be a runner in high school, and like for years I wasn't running at all. And now I'm like running again very easily, like doing activity pretty much every day. And it was, yeah, after like a lot of years of trial and error, finally getting someone who was, yeah, like looking at it holistically and like was able to see how like what in my body's alignment was off, and then give me like the prescriptive things to do to actually be able to work on it and then like find pain relief. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

So no surgeries at all. None for your neck or your lower back. Okay. And did they try, did they offer you surgery for your lower back?

Hope, Adaptability, And Practical Encouragement

Closing And Call For Recovery Stories

SPEAKER_01 26:33

No, that for that they it was the same thing. Like, so at that point, my neck was more severe. So I was I was because that had been intense on and off for years. The low back had been started to get intense, but it wasn't like the same duration. And so like they were more focused on the neck. They said with neck they are more conservative. So they didn't mention like if you went in um for I actually at the very same time where I was like one of my one of my friends, boyfriends, had just gotten surgery on for his like low back, and he was like late 20s, also. And I think he said his had also been really severe, like he was in a lot of pain all the time. It was, it was like he was having trouble standing up. Um, but so I was like, okay, like they're probably gonna tell me to do this too, because I'm telling them the same thing, like I'm in pain all the time. And then when they told me, like, you can have surgery and you can still have pain because they're just trying to save your nerves, right? They don't the the pain is so complex because your muscles start doing things to preserve the spine, that then yeah, they're like they're they can then become the source of the pain even after the problem in your spine is absolutely from you. Yeah, so I'm glad that they were they're realistic. And I like I think I had good referrals that they were like, you're not a candidate. They're like, yeah, they're like they're like you like you should not be talking to us about a surgery at all. And they sent me back to physical therapy, which at the time I was really frustrated because I had been to four physical therapists and none of them were helpful. And I was like, You guys aren't listening to me. I already told you I did this. And then um, through emailing a lot of people, and luckily the one person closest to me in Brooklyn also I think happened to be the best person for me. Because there were even times I saw I would like when he was away, like someone else at the practice would see me, and just like the way that they were working with me, I was like, No, I need Jim. Like, I can't like he's the only one who gets what's going on. And um, so it was very specific. And that's where then I I went, I did go back to Reddit and I updated. I was just like, okay, so like a year ago I wrote about this and I had really good success. So I like recommend this. And I then I got you know, some people DM me like more specific things, and um I it is still like I mean, unfortunately, type of thing where it's like it's so like person specific. And I think but but after after what I learned, I was just like, oh okay, I see um the way that like our our muscle system is like so adaptable, but then can be adaptable in this way that actually ends up being the source of the pain. And then it's it's like it's a hard thing, right? To like change your posture, to change how you're moving in day-to-day life. Right. Um, because that's that's the other thing going through in PT as well. That um I they would always feel like okay, so I was the type of patient where I was just like, I would take everything and then I would I would start doing it in like I'm like, okay, like as I'm sitting, as I'm standing, as I'm walking, I'm thinking about these things that they told me to be aware of, but I wouldn't like actually do the exercises at home because I was just like, I was like, guys, like I can do the exercises, I can do three reps of 20, but I'm like, I'm telling you, like I'm going throughout my day, like I'm riding a city bike and I'm like thinking of where my ribs are, and I'm like walking down the street and I'm like pulling my neck in, and I was like, I was like, I promise you, I'm like I'm incorporating them, but I'm like, I'm not gonna like sit at home and do like two reps. Um so so but so but that's the type of thing where I think was then it was really helpful for me because instead of just doing a couple exercises and then Just like walking around like normal. I was taking it in, internalizing it, and like really like just move trying to move differently and even sleep differently. But yeah, I think there's um so yeah, I I went through being surgery free, and I'm I'm hopeful now that I don't think I'll have to have surgery. I don't know. Um the are you pain free now? Pretty much. Like I it's been super it's been a very long time since I'd say I've experienced like neck pain. Actually, no, probably like a couple, a couple months ago, I will say, I decided like I should do full pull-up push-ups again. And after like a couple of days of that, my neck wasn't happy. So I was like, okay, I shouldn't be at that level is too much. Um, but other than that, yeah. And then I do, I one one thing I still get lingering symptoms of is I get my arm and my fingers tingling when I lie down on my back. So, and so that um not really painful, but it's like this one remnant of it that also the irony being that probably the best position to sleep in would be on my back. I used to be a stomach sleeper, like so severe with my neck burned, which they said probably also contributed to it because I was constantly in that position. And then, but then it when I lie down on my back, my arm completely falls asleep, like pins and needles. Yes. Just from how um, yeah, like the muscles are still like really cancer and the pinching. But that's I'd say like that's minor compared to everything else. I'll get I'll get some sporadic, sometimes like wrist pain. Um, but otherwise, and same thing for like the lower back, that's pretty much like like it's been super rare that I get any sciatic symptoms, like any of that down the back of the leg or anything. So yeah, it in in in some ways I almost forget how bad it was because now it just feels like I have um like full control and use over my body again and am able to do like the things that I was always doing before. Which yeah, so it's so it's great, and but it's definitely it's it's funny like how quickly you can you can adapt to whatever your normal is. Like I remember in that moment, I was so I was like, okay, I can't do this anymore. And now that I've like I can do all these things again, I forget that there was a period I was like, wait, I couldn't even carry my purse before.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Right. Yeah, yeah. And I had surgery uh in 2019 and my numbness never went away. And I would say that I'm like 95% pain free, but every once in a while I get a flare of pain.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

What so yeah, you had lower back?

SPEAKER_02 32:36

L5 S1.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

So even with surgery taking my pain away, I still get the occasional flare and it only lasts a day or two. But it sounds like that's where you are without having surgery.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's um I know it's funny how that works. And I, but I I definitely wasn't even expecting like when I went in and had those consultations, I wasn't expecting the surgeons to like tell me not to do this. Because all the everyone else was telling me later, like, we don't know what else to do with you, like besides surgery. Yeah. And then the surgeons were like, no, like not not now. They're like, this is and there was and then they're like, especially if it's just for pain, like not just for pain, right? But like they're like, they're like they're like in the neck, they're like the surgery is the worst way to treat pain. They're like, it could actually cause more pain.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Right. Well, if it feels much if it felt muscular to you, they're gonna be cutting into your muscle. So then you still have less pain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

And for neck, they go through the front. Oh, oh, I don't oh, did I know that?

SPEAKER_02 33:39

No, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Yeah, so they they describe the whole thing to me. They're like, okay, they they're like we try to go in where you have naturally have a um like a fold crease, a hide in, a crease, and that, but then they're like they have to to be able to access the disc because of the way the vertebrae are, like they're like, we have to go through the your throat. Right. Oh, operate on them. And then in the neck, they don't do I don't think they have artificial discs they can do in your neck, so they just um fuse. Oh, okay. So I think I think that's the other thing with the neck. Why they're all they're like, you don't want this unless you like are absolutely like in a tragic accident, like something where your neck's basically broken. Okay. But then I think for I think for lower back, because do you do you have an artificial disc?

SPEAKER_02 34:25

No, I just had a uh microdissectomy where they get rid of the little perniated disc that came out.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Oh, okay. So they like just shave it down. Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah, I remember I asked them for that too. I was like, give me that. And they're like, that's not how it works. I was like, No, I thought I think that would solve all my problems.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

And they're like, we don't I think they do microdissectomy on next.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

I think they they might for me, they were like, no. And I was like, I was like, I think I want that. It was before I had gone through the PT and like now, now I'm glad that they you didn't want to give me surgery.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Right, yeah. If a surgeon was doesn't want to cut you open, listen to a surgeon because they usually that's all they want to do.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Exactly. So yeah, that's I mean, that's why I kept that's why I sought out four different opinions because I was like, one of you must want to.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Well, I am so glad that you are living a normal life again and back to doing the things that you love and being helpful on Reddit. That's where I found you. I saw your post, your one-year update, and and sent you the private message. Anything else that you would love for someone who is currently dealing with this situation to know?

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Um so yeah, for someone currently dealing with this situation, I would want them to know that like it may seem like this is permanent and it's never going to change or get better, but it there it there is always a way. And it is a lot of trial and error, but the like human body is very adaptable and amazing. So you just need to find something specific to you. And like, I'd say I'm living proof of that. Of I I thought I was kind of set to live life one way and let go of being an active person, and then very quickly within a couple of months of finding the right treatment, I've gone back to living the life that I always enjoyed and wanted to live.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

That's great. Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Yeah, thank you. And thank you for hosting this. This is like an amazing way to give back, like giving the your experience too, like very um appreciative of that. Um the scale that you're doing it at because this is such hard information to find. I think, and that's where a lot of us do turn to Reddit and things like that. But having just more um, yeah, because there's no one size fits all treatment, like having just more general ideas out there of like options to try so that way people don't get discouraged and want to give up. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Well, thank you again. If you are a listener with a positive story of recovery from a serious back or neck injury, head over to my website, bedbackbeyond.com, and click share your story. I would love to include your voice on the show. Caroline, such a pleasure meeting you.