The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
2025 – The Year We Fired OKRs — Radhika Dutt Brings the Matches
What if the problem isn’t how you set goals… but the fact you’re using goals at all?
In this episode of The Elephant in the Org, we declare 2025 the year we fire OKRs — and we’ve brought exactly the right arsonist. Author, entrepreneur, and product leader Radhika Dutt joins Danny, Marion, and Cacha to explain why traditional goal-setting, targets, and OKRs were built for 1940s assembly lines, not modern, messy, knowledge work.
Radhika, author of Radical Product Thinking and advisor to the Monetary Authority of Singapore, has seen it all: pivotitis, obsessive sales disorder, hypermetrisemia, and leaders who cling to targets while flying blind. Her verdict? Goals don’t simply “need better implementation” — they structurally push people to hide bad news, optimise vanity metrics, and suffocate innovation.
So what’s the alternative?
Puzzle-setting.
Radhika walks us through OHLA — Objectives, Hypotheses, Learnings, Adaptations — a practical, psychologically safe, reality-based way to shift from “Did you hit the number?” to “What did we learn and how do we adapt?” OHLA is built for complex, creative work — not the spreadsheet theatre most orgs mistake for strategy.
In this episode, we get into:
- Why OKRs and targets quietly sabotage truth-telling and innovation
- The 1940s origin story of goal-setting (and why it no longer applies)
- How OHLA works in real organisations — and why it changes behaviour
- What leaders have to unlearn to stop demanding fake certainty
- How to build a bubble of psychological safety even inside a messy system
Full show notes
Connect with Radhika:
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/radhika-dutt/
🌐 Radical Product Thinking: https://www.radicalproduct.com
📚
🐘 Connect with Us:
🚀 Follow The Fearless PX on LinkedIn: The Fearless PX
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🎧 Catch every episode of The Elephant in the Org: All Episodes Here
🚀Your Hosts on Linkedin:
💬 Like what you hear?
Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the Elephant in the Org, everyone! I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-host, Cacha Dora
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Cacha Dora: Hello?
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And today, we have a fantastic elephant in the org that we're gonna talk about. Goal setting.
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Danny Gluch: And it's not just that you're doing it wrong. And to talk about that, we have…
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Danny Gluch: author, speaker, Radhika Dutt, did I, did I say that name right?
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Radhika Dutt: Yes, you did. Thank you for asking.
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Danny Gluch: Disgust!
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Danny Gluch: Awesome.
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Danny Gluch: Why don't you introduce yourself?
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Radhika Dutt: So, my background is that I did electrical engineering at MIT, and then my first set of startups were ones where I learned a lot from, I made lots of mistakes.
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Radhika Dutt: And I caught what I now call product diseases. And for our listeners in the tech industry, I think you're going to listen to these diseases and say, oh yes, please, you know, we've caught all of these. But that's the story of how it goes in the tech world, right? So, here are some diseases. Pivotitis.
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Radhika Dutt: There is… obsessive sales disorder, which I will admit to having contributed to. There's strategic swelling.
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Radhika Dutt: Oh, and narcissist Complex.
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Radhika Dutt: Which is why we're so focused on what we want, what we think we should be building, that we forget about our customers.
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Radhika Dutt: And then, I think at the moment.
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Radhika Dutt: Just… given how data-driven we are, the disease that is top of mind for me is hypermetrisemia.
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Danny Gluch: And so… so my background is, I wrote Radical Product Thinking, which is my first book, which came out in 2021. It's about how we can build world-changing products while avoiding all of these product diseases.
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Radhika Dutt: And now I'm working on my next book, which is about why goals, targets, OKRs backfire, and what actually works, because it's not enough to just say goals and OKRs don't work.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, and it's not that… Oh, I was gonna say, it's not that they don't work, or that, like, you're not good enough, you just need to get more skilled at doing the goals and OKRs. There's a fundamental, like, structurally, this is harming you.
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Marion: It really is. It is fundamentally bad for organizations. Let's talk about why.
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Radhika Dutt: The first thing is, when you set a target, the incentive you create for people, whether you intend to or not, the incentive that you create is that you make them look at the good numbers and show you the good numbers to say, ta-da.
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Radhika Dutt: we've hit those numbers, you know, I'm a high performer. That's really the incentive you're setting. And so what happens is, even when people are not being malicious, even when they're not gaming numbers, etc.
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Radhika Dutt: They're looking at the good numbers to show you that, look, I've achieved your expectations. They're not looking at the bad numbers. They're sort of sweeping the bad numbers under the rug, or not noticing them, because, you know, your whole desire is to please the others, to show that you're a high performer.
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Radhika Dutt: The bad numbers are what tell you, actually, what's going on. Those numbers are where you want to play detective and say, you know, maybe there's a puzzle here, maybe there's an opportunity, there's something happening. And you miss all of that because of targets and OKRs.
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Marion: I'm gonna… I'm gonna come at this from the Chief People Officer lens, from the HR lens. I like to tell people that I'm a… I'm a CPO in recovery, because that's the truth.
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Marion: And… you know, when I think about traditional organizations, particularly larger-scale organizations that are more…
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Marion: rigid in their, kind of, annual life cycle, you know, their employee activity life cycle.
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Marion: It kind of goes a little bit like this.
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Marion: you know, you… you'll close out the year, open the year, and it's review season. So we're doing reviews, review, review, review, then we have
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Marion: calibrations for that, then we have, you know, our outcomes, awards given, then we're in a promotion cycle, then we're in some other review, then it's mid-years, then it's this, then it's that, da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da. Like, it goes like that the entire year, right? It's like a marathon.
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Marion: And when that window of goal setting comes round, in many organizations, it just feels like one goddamn more thing that we have to do. It's a tick box exercise, right?
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Marion: And it's like most of the employee lifecycle stuff is very tick box and highly performative.
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Marion: And the other thing is that we like to overcomp… we like to either overcomplicate goal setting.
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Marion: To the point where people are so confused about what goal they're meant to be following, is it a cascaded goal? Is it a shared goal? Is it an individual? Like, no one knows, right?
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Marion: And then, we confuse people with, like, well, is it a SPARC goal? You know, like, it's just… it's such a mess, right? And I think there… that's where it just becomes the point where people are just like, oh, let me just bang anything down, and then, like, you know, and whatever.
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Marion: And then you've got the group of people.
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Marion: That are in roles, that the role is so either poorly designed, poorly supported, where they're so overwhelmed, they don't even have a chance
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Marion: to fulfill goals, because they're just keeping the lights on, right? You know, I'm thinking about HR people, particularly in that sort of situation. And so, it's… it… to me, like, it feels that there's…
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Marion: a real need, like most things in human resources, to blow it up and start again. Reimagine it. You know, I think this sits really well alongside with compensation, performance-related pay, or not performance-related pay. You know, there's such a movement around that just now as well, should
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Marion: pay and performance be decoupled, etc. So, like, I think that
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Marion: where all of these things were established, like, many of these notions were established in the 1930s, right? We know that through, through historical data.
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Marion: Yeah, it's time to blow it up and start again. Maybe I'm being radical, but that's how I feel.
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Radhika Dutt: But, you know, when you say it's time to blow up and start again, it sounds downright scary for leaders, right? Because, well, you know, OKRs, goals, this is what I've learned all my life, that this is how you build products, this is how you build companies, and now you're saying, blow that up. There's so much to unpack in what you said, because, you know, a lot of times.
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Radhika Dutt: to all the objections that you brought up, people give simplistic answers. Well, the answer's easy, just divorce compensation from goals. Oh, you know, rigid organizations? Simple. Just do goal setting more often, you know, do it every quarter.
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Radhika Dutt: There are problems with every one of those, right? Because when you say, just divorce compensation from goals.
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Radhika Dutt: Most smart people aren't thinking about showing you that they've hit their targets just because they're thinking about this, bonus cycle, right? They're thinking about their long-term careers. So there's no divorcing compensation from OKRs, because you're always looking to, show that you're a high performer. It's the long-term career trajectory when you're smart and a high performer.
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Radhika Dutt: You know, when you talk about rigid organizations and how goal setting becomes really constraining, this whole idea that, oh, just set goals more often. There was someone who said this to a leader.
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Radhika Dutt: And the leader just laughed, saying, you know, we would die if we had to do this multiple times in a year, because it's hard enough to do it once a year. So…
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Radhika Dutt: the solution, right, isn't so much that we just, oh, have to do goal setting right. You mentioned the historic aspect of goal setting. I want to dive into that a little bit. Historically, where does goal setting come from? Why is it so entrenched in our corporate psyche?
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Radhika Dutt: And I was looking back, through history, so OKRs seem like they're new, because John Doerr evangelized them in 2018,
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Radhika Dutt: But actually, Andy Grove, he called him the father of OKRs. Andy Grove instituted OKRs at Intel in 1978.
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Radhika Dutt: Well, you go back to 1978. Where did Andy Grove get this idea? He looked back at management by objectives from Peter Drucker in the 1940s.
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Radhika Dutt: And so you go back to the 1940s and you say, okay, what problem was Peter Drucker solving? And the answer to that is, he was working with General Motors at the time.
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Radhika Dutt: And the problem at the time was that the workforce was working on assembly lines, primarily repetitive tasks. And actually, research shows that when you have a repetitive task.
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Radhika Dutt: Where there's one right way to do things, like doing crunches at the gym, or if you're stuffing envelopes for a campaign, great! Goal setting works wonderfully. And that's what Peter Drucker found. Great, you know, when you're installing tires, one right way to do it.
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Radhika Dutt: set goals, it's a fantastic solution. That's why it's revolutionary for the 1940s.
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Radhika Dutt: Now you take those same ideas, and you put goal setting on manufacturing floors, where everything that could be automated and more has already been automated, right? And that's where you see, like at Boeing, you have quality issues with, you know, panels flying off of planes.
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Radhika Dutt: Goal setting does not work, and this is what research shows. Goal setting does not work when the problem that you're working on is more like a puzzle, where there isn't one right solution, but there could be many, and you're trying to figure out, how do you achieve this, right? In that case.
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Radhika Dutt: Goal setting has A negative, set of side effects.
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Marion: That makes a lot of sense. It really does. Yeah, it does. And especially as we think about that in modern environment, in environments, in companies and industries that are innovation-led.
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Marion: It stifles innovation, right? Because again, go back to that psychological safety piece.
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Marion: I will not take a risk, especially in this current climate. I will not take a risk to innovate if it means that I'm likely to lose my job because my… I'll get a target on my back, right? Which, again, completely supports what you just said, so…
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Marion: What is the… what's the solution, then?
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Radhika Dutt: So the solution is moving to a mindset
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Radhika Dutt: of puzzle setting and puzzle solving. So not goal setting, but puzzle setting and puzzle solving. So let's talk about what this actually means, because even the word puzzles sounds scary for leaders, because does it feel like, you know, I'm just sending my people off to the playground, you know, come back when you're done playing around, you know, and in the meanwhile, what's happening to all the deadlines and what I have to show shareholders and leadership?
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Radhika Dutt: So, when I talk about puzzle setting and puzzle setting, puzzle solving, let's look at a sales example. A sales target would be like, okay, hit X million revenues by the end of this year.
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Radhika Dutt: Whereas a puzzle would be, the market expects us to hit X million by the end of the year, but I am seeing some issues. We grew in the last 3 years, but sales have stalled in the last year.
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Radhika Dutt: What is going on? So that's the observation.
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Radhika Dutt: the observation, then the next O. It's a set of three O's. The observation was the problem.
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Radhika Dutt: The open questions is the second O.
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Radhika Dutt: what are some open questions? Like, genuinely, things I don't know the answers to. Maybe something has shifted fundamentally in the market. Maybe something is happening with AI, and it has second-order effects that I'm not seeing, so even though our product isn't directly affected by AI, there's something happening where the market is shifting. What's going on?
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Radhika Dutt: Or maybe another open question is, maybe we were really good at selling to the early adopter, we haven't figured out how to sell to the mass market.
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Radhika Dutt: Or maybe our product was working for the early adopter, but it's not meeting the needs of the mass market. So here are some open questions I genuinely don't know answers to, and I invite my team to share their thinking on defining this puzzle and what might be going on.
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Radhika Dutt: And now, the last O is the objective. So the objective is that, I want to summarize the puzzle by saying, I want to solve this problem and get back to our growth trajectory by figuring out this puzzle. So that's setting the puzzle, right?
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Radhika Dutt: And now I'm gonna solve this puzzle. And so…
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Radhika Dutt: once I start exploring the problem space of this puzzle, I start to understand the nature of what's going on. And as I understand the nature and stay in the problem space, now I'm ready to take a crack at the solution. I'm not jumping to the solution and experimenting, let's just lean in, throw things at the problem, right? I am figuring out
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Radhika Dutt: based on what I've done in exploring the puzzle, what will be my first attempt? This is like looking at the Rubik's Cube, and now I'm ready to take my first try. Now in puzzle solving, I ask 3 questions.
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Radhika Dutt: For this attempt, How well did it work?
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Radhika Dutt: Notice that, by the way, notice the psychological safety built in. It's not asking you, did you or didn't you achieve this goal? It's how well did it work? I'm inviting the good and the bad.
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Radhika Dutt: Then the second question, what have I learned?
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Radhika Dutt: Don't just regurgitate numbers at me and show me dashboards. Tell me the narrative. What have I learned?
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Radhika Dutt: And now the last question. Based on how well it worked and what have I learned, if I gave you a magic wand, what would you ask for next?
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Radhika Dutt: Right? And so, what you notice, given that you guys are so into psychology, the first question triggers the left brain. How well did it work? I'm looking at data, hypotheses.
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Radhika Dutt: The second question is the narrative of the learning. It triggers the right brain.
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Radhika Dutt: And the last question, what will you do next if you had a magic wand? Again, the right brain, out-of-the-box thinking. So how would I do this for the sales problem?
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Radhika Dutt: How well did it work? Maybe the sales problem was, I try new messaging, because I think it's not working for the mass market. I try this new messaging, how well did it work?
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Radhika Dutt: It looks like it's working. It looks like I'm getting meetings with decision makers. Great, that's the first question, how well did it work? Second question, what did I learn?
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Radhika Dutt: So I'm getting meetings with decision makers. It turns out there's now a new group within the decision makers we've traditionally never talked to. It's a new influencer within this organization. We need to start talking to them. Because otherwise, sales cycle is too long.
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Radhika Dutt: Third question, what will I try next?
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Radhika Dutt: So based on how well it's working and what I've learned.
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Radhika Dutt: I'm going to now create new material to reach this different group, this influencer. I'm gonna do webinars to include this group. I'm also going to create easily shareable material to bring this other group on board, so that the decision maker can use this material and bring this other group. Let's see how well it works.
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Radhika Dutt: now I could… I've basically set a new element of the puzzle that starts this cycle again. I'd love to hear your thoughts on all of what I shared, because that was a lot.
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Marion: No, I'm… I'm, like, digesting all of that. I… I… oh my gosh, I love it. I… I suppose…
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Marion: all of that makes a huge amount of sense to me, and I think… If you think about it.
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Marion: this way, I think it's what we sort of do naturally, day to day.
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Marion: But as soon as someone mentions it in a format of goals, we deviate back to that, here's my target, da-da-da. And so, like, on psychology, right, there's a massive shift that's required in how we think.
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Marion: to be able to kind of make that the norm, even though I think a lot of that we do naturally as human beings and just don't recognise it.
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Marion: So I suppose then that leads me to the question of.
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Marion: Thinking about change management, in particular cultural change management in organisations, which we know at least 70% always bombs, right, always fails.
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Marion: How in… how would you approach
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Marion: Bringing that change into an organization where it's likely to succeed.
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Radhika Dutt: Oh, I love this question, change management and how do you bring this in? And before I answer that, I want to also ask, Kasia, you've been very quiet in all of this. I would love your thoughts on what resonated for you in all of this puzzle setting and puzzle solving.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, I appreciate the question. Slightly similar to Marion, is… when thinking about goals, right, it's always very much, like, I think about the… the psyche of the individual writing their goal.
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Cacha Dora: And in the world that we live in right now, it's how do I protect my job?
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Cacha Dora: Because we live in a world of just… we live in a layoff world, basically, right? Like, there isn't an industry that hasn't been hit.
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Cacha Dora: And so there's a… there's an incumbent fear
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Cacha Dora: on what if I don't hit this goal? How do I write this goal so that I do, in fact, achieve it? Which then ends up with a fallacy line of authenticity. Because now, I'm writing a goal just to achieve it, not necessarily to actually
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Cacha Dora: have something… I don't want to say a worth of value, because that means that, like, you know, makes it sound like that there's, like, not worth.
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Cacha Dora: But being able to say, like, you know that you're going to be doing… going to your problem-solving line, if you're writing your goals and you're thinking about goals through the lens of problem solving, how many organizations have to pivot because their industry is pivoting right now?
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Cacha Dora: Right? Like, where there's… you could be in a regulated space, you could be in a production space, so you're only as good as your last whatever.
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Cacha Dora: And you're constantly problem solving, and so being able to write toward the problem that you're doing in your day-to-day versus this, how do I keep my job.
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Cacha Dora: almost get… invites that innovation that's so hard, right? Yeah. To kind of quantify. But, like, I think of the mindset of people when they write their… when they're writing their goals right now, and it's just, how do I write my goal to keep my job?
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: It really does create this space of just not being able to
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Cacha Dora: Do it right, I think, you know, and maybe even do it honestly.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, so that was kind of my thought process when you were… when you were talking about that, because I was just thinking about the world we're in right now, and the mindset of people
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Cacha Dora: In there. And yeah, I love the problem-solving component, because that's what we do every day.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Marion… Did you raise your hand?
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Marion: No.
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Radhika Dutt: Okay, you then accidentally clicked, because I was giving you space to say…
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Marion: No, I didn't touch it, I swear!
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Radhika Dutt: You don't sound like the type who would raise your hand, you would just say what you want to say.
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Danny Gluch: I was so confused.
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Cacha Dora: I was like, that's so gentle!
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Marion: So… Zoom does… yeah, Zoom does this weird thing that it.
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Danny Gluch: It does. Like, what happens if I do this? Is it gonna do the thing? Yeah.
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Radhika Dutt: Oh my god!
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Danny Gluch: No one asked for this Zoom. No, there was some goal that someone set, and it was, we needed to do something, so now… now Marion's raising her hand.
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Radhika Dutt: box.
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Danny Gluch: fireworks, yeah.
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Radhika Dutt: Gosh, I think…
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Danny Gluch: Oh, sorry, go, go ahead.
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Radhika Dutt: So, there are two things that both Marian and Kasia, you said, which is, you know, this mindset of solving problems, solving puzzles, etc, it is so innate to us. You know, as humans, we just like solving puzzles, right? I've done this question so many times in workshops.
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Radhika Dutt: Where I ask people two questions, right? I say to them, tell me your feelings at the end of each one. And you guys have already reflected that in what you've said. I say, you know, there are two questions I'll ask you. So the first question is, what goals
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Radhika Dutt: Do you want to achieve for your company this year?
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Radhika Dutt: Versus, What puzzles do you want to solve for your company this year?
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Radhika Dutt: And…
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Radhika Dutt: Unequivocally, the feedback I get is, goal setting creates this feeling of anxiety, burden, fear for me, and puzzles, it's this feeling of excitement, curiosity, you know, I want to solve puzzles. There's this innate drive that I want to do it. It's not my company making me do this, right?
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Radhika Dutt: And, Marian, to your point, you know, and yet, like, the whole…
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Radhika Dutt: organizational mindset is, to motivate you, I have to give you goals. Like, aren't we being silly? Like, look at the internal motivation that people have when you talk about
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Radhika Dutt: puzzles, and approaching it as puzzles. And Kasia, you were talking about the fear of goals and trying to hit those goals, right? And doing this from this perspective of, oh, you know, I want to keep my job, so I'm going to write goals in this way. But, you know, when you solve puzzles.
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Radhika Dutt: there is… like, think about when you're solving a Rubik's Cube. You don't go at it saying, oh, I tried my first attempt. That was a failure, but I'm going to embrace failure. You don't use these bullshit lines. You're just going at it, you're thinking about what you did. Oh, that didn't work, let me try this instead. You're constantly going through this mental process of learning from what didn't work.
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Radhika Dutt: And then adapting. You don't artificially have to call out, oh, failure is okay, we're going to fail fast, learn fast.
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Radhika Dutt: You don't have to artificially create these bullshit statements, because puzzles just genuinely, innately, create this mindset of, I'm gonna…
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Radhika Dutt: First of all, look at the problem, understand it, then I'm going to try something, and you know what I'm going to learn from it, adapt, and keep doing this really quickly, because I have this internal drive. So, to now go back to this question of how do you bring in this mindset shift?
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Radhika Dutt: I'll share with you what I tried, what didn't work, and what does work instead. The first thing I tried was, I looked at all of these problems, and I shared with leaders, look, goals and OKRs, they have all of these side effects, don't try… don't use those, use puzzle setting instead.
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Radhika Dutt: That did not work. Because of the fear that, you know, there were two fears. One, this fear that with puzzles, I don't have control. The second fear was.
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Radhika Dutt: does my team have the capability, the competency to do puzzle setting and puzzle solving effectively, so that, you know, I can comfortably move away from what I've known all my life? Because goal setting is what I've known all my life, it's the devil I know.
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Radhika Dutt: you know, does my team have the competency to deal with this? And so, what I have found to work well instead is
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Radhika Dutt: a top-down and a bottom-up approach. I tell leaders, look, here are the side effects of goal setting in OKRs. You're not hearing the reality from the trenches as much as you think you are. This is why Andy Grove at Intel said in his book, Only the paranoid Survive, he said.
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Radhika Dutt: leaders are the last to know. It's because you set goals and targets, you hear what you want to hear. And so, I share this with leaders, but I'm not asking them to make change. I tell them how I'm going to build competency to do better in the team.
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Radhika Dutt: And so, then I just started working with the team to say, you know.
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Radhika Dutt: I'm not even going to talk about this as a mindset shift, but I introduced the structure of puzzle solving, the structure of how well did it work, what have we learned, what will we try next? And so, you know, within our product teams, I started using this approach to say, you know, let's have these learning meetings.
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Radhika Dutt: For each of us, you know, let's look at what we've released, and depending on your cycle, right, it might be what you've released in the last month, it might be what you released 3 months ago, whatever it is, but pick something
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Radhika Dutt: And share for me, how well did it work? What have we learned? What will you try next? And give me honest answers, and we're gonna do this within the safety of just our small team. And we had created psychological safety in that team.
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Radhika Dutt: And so the team started sharing this stuff with me in learning meetings, and it was fascinating to me, by the way. In the first such instance, right, in terms of what have we learned.
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Radhika Dutt: People were regurgitating numbers and dashboard for me. They would show me, you know, weekly active users, the growth, blah blah, and I was like, stop, okay.
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Radhika Dutt: So what? Like, what have we actually figured out? What is happening, actually, with the users? And you ask a couple of such questions, people really got it. I wasn't interested in just dashboards and numbers looking good. Tell me what you learned, right? And we were going to talk about these learnings.
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Radhika Dutt: In just two such sessions, people's mindsets changed entirely. You know, as we started even doing design sprints, whatever we were talking about, we started asking better questions, right?
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Radhika Dutt: And by the way, the end result in this company… so, when I started in 2023 as a consultant, sales had stalled, growth had stalled.
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Radhika Dutt: In 2024, we doubled growth. In 2025, we AGAIN doubled growth. And I mean both growth in terms of sales, as well as number of customers.
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Radhika Dutt: And we reduced churn from 26% to 4%. And we did this through constant puzzle setting, puzzle solving. And at this point, they don't set targets for the product team anymore because of the results they see from puzzle setting and puzzle solving.
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Danny Gluch: That's incredible.
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Cacha Dora: I love that so much.
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Danny Gluch: You know, when you were talking, I was really reminded of…
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Danny Gluch: You know, my background's in education, and one of the experiences that really changed how I approached teaching at the university was, there was a little overlap where I was starting to teach, but I was still driving buses, and I drove a bus, a group of seniors in high school to Joshua Tree.
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Danny Gluch: And it was this really interesting school. It's called the Urban School. They're one of the best high schools in the country.
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Danny Gluch: They don't give grades.
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Danny Gluch: At any point, from freshman year all the way through senior, no one knows their grades until it's time to apply for colleges, because then you have to.
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Danny Gluch: And the idea is that they wanted them to enjoy learning. It's not about getting the grade, it's about learning.
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Danny Gluch: this was the most interesting group of students I'd ever met. They were… they were curious, they were smart, they loved… they were asking me if I'd read Moby Dick, and I was like, of course I read Moby Dick, that's incredible! How have you read Moby Dick? You're 17 years old!
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Danny Gluch: And it was so fascinating that I tried it at the university, and I was like, I'm not gonna give my students grades until the end of the semester.
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Danny Gluch: And the problem is.
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Danny Gluch: that the students wanted their grades, they needed their grades, that's what they had known their whole time growing up in school, they needed to know how they were doing, especially the ones who were good, and I was like, look, you're like my best student. I'm still not gonna give you the answer you're looking for, but, like, don't worry about it, just, just be here, keep engaging, keep doing what you're doing, and you're great.
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Danny Gluch: And…
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Danny Gluch: they just… they didn't get it. There's something in the mindset where it needed to be, like, this whole thing, like the…
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Danny Gluch: the school couldn't just do it for, like, one class. Like, that whole high school, every class, no one was giving grades, and it was a known and accepted cultural part of that.
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Danny Gluch: And I'm curious if, like.
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Danny Gluch: an individual team in an organization, do you think they could choose to approach things this way, or would the sort of surrounding, culture be pushing them on, like, oh, but what are your OKRs? You know, they might not get asked that specifically, but, like.
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Danny Gluch: There's still gonna be a little bit of that pressure to talk about their goals, and their numbers, and…
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Danny Gluch: hitting.
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Cacha Dora: Well, there's so many, like, internal and environmental factors that go into that, right? Like, do you have stakeholders? Are you a public company? Are you a private company? And, like.
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Cacha Dora: I totally understand why, Danny, like, in your college course that you were teaching, why people were craving those grades, like, we're…
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Cacha Dora: from the time we're young, we need validation, because the education system tells us we need this validation, right?
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Danny Gluch: Scholarships are like, hey, you need to be getting this
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Danny Gluch: you know, this grade per every course, let me know what the grade is, and it's like.
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Danny Gluch: Sorry, I'm not gonna do that.
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Cacha Dora: It's interesting when you think of all those factors that just… Go into, now we're professionals.
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Cacha Dora: And we have this mindset that we don't even know we have, right? It's almost subconscious of how we assess things from… you were talking about the product group, and it was like.
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Cacha Dora: they're probably thinking… starting the conversation, thinking to themselves, okay, well, how many activations do we have versus how many logins do we have, versus how many… what's our utilization like, like, from a client base? Like, they start to look at all those things, but it really comes down to sometimes that three-letter word of.
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Cacha Dora: Why?
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Radhika Dutt: Yeah.
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Radhika Dutt: But, you know, this thing that you said about grades, right? So, my kids, they also went to a school where, so it was a school, for gifted kids, and the teacher said, the principal, her view of the world was, you know, if you're a kid that is doing math for grade levels above you.
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Radhika Dutt: why would I give you a B for the level of challenge that you're taking on? Like, what am I telling you in terms of, you know, your achievement? If you're doing… if you're really challenging yourself, then why should I give you a B for that? Maybe, you know, you might be just getting by doing math four grade levels above, but I'm not going to give you a B for it. So, you know, that's why they did not have grades.
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Radhika Dutt: But at the same time, what they did a good job of was the self-assessment and helping you understand exactly where you stand. Like, how well do you understand this material? It was good feedback.
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Radhika Dutt: And, you know, how are you? Where are you right now in terms of how you're doing? What do I need to do better? What do you need to do better? Etc, right? Like, people crave not grades, but knowing where they stand. What they don't want is a surprise at the end, because this fear of what's going to happen at the end of the semester when, you know, Professor Danny is gonna finally give me a grade, that is down
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Radhika Dutt: quite scary, right? If I know exactly where I am, that yes, you know, you're on track, you know, this will… you're doing fine, I have nothing to complain about, or here's what I want you to do better, like, that kind of feedback, people genuinely want to grow. So here's what research shows about growth, by the way, that people
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Radhika Dutt: really want feedback, and are receptive to feedback.
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Radhika Dutt: Unless they feel evaluated. So the more people feel evaluated, the less open they are to taking feedback.
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Radhika Dutt: Isn't that fascinating? Let's think about how corporate…
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Radhika Dutt: evaluation process works. We are constantly trying to give people grades. You know, you are a 5, you here are a 3,
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Radhika Dutt: you know, this is where then you then give people feedback, and you say, okay, last Wednesday, you know, I saw you in this meeting, here's one suggestion for how you can do better, and there's instant defensiveness, like, oh, come on, you know, you're just not quite understanding the context, here's what actually happened that Wednesday, right? Why do you get all this pushback as a manager? It's because that
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Radhika Dutt: that feedback might be the difference between my getting a 4 versus a 5. Of course I'm gonna push back. And so.
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Radhika Dutt: what we want to focus on as leaders, so that we get the most, or harness the most out of every employee, is rather than making them feel evaluated, to give them this feeling that I'm on your side, I want to develop you, you know, I want to give you that A, and
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Radhika Dutt: you know, you are going to get that A. Here are things that we can work on together. Here's exactly where you stand. I'm not gonna bullshit you, I'm not gonna give you dishonest feedback.
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Radhika Dutt: This is where radical candor comes in. I love that book. You care personally, and you approach it directly. And there was, you know, one of my teammates who said to me, you know, anyone else giving me this feedback, I would have been defensive on, but I appreciate how you've approached this, right? We can give direct, honest feedback, but we have to make people feel like we're on your side. And then, all of what we want to share.
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Radhika Dutt: You know, when they give me this information from this angle of, how well did it work? What have I learned? What will I try next? I know exactly where you stand. You know, there have been people who came from backgrounds from Google and Amazon. They would tell me, what have I learned?
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Radhika Dutt: And it was all about optimizing numbers, and I suddenly realized, wow, everything that you've been doing until now has been this bullshit of optimizing numbers. In terms of what your learnings have been, it's been too shallow, and I've been able to challenge them, saying, I need you to think deeper about, like you said, Kasha, the why. What have you actually learned from all of these stats?
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Radhika Dutt: In terms of what you will do next, you know, this experiment that you want to try, like, there has to be a better, smaller version of that. You know, I'm able to push teams better because I'm getting honest answers.
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Danny Gluch: That's amazing. I love a couple of the things that you were talking about. One is the feeling evaluated. Just the one example you were talking about of, you know, the goal setting, or what goals do you want to do for your company this year versus what
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Danny Gluch: problems and puzzles you want to solve for your company. And, like, I honestly think one of the differences is that people feel like, well, this one's gonna get evaluated, because, you know, at some point, it's, like, someone's gonna say whether or not I did this thing, as opposed to, like, oh, them seeing that I'm doing this good job working on this puzzle.
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Danny Gluch: And that feeling, like, the formal evaluations are so rough because of exactly that. You feel evaluated. I teach and do facilitations on how to give presentations and things like that, and so many people are terrified of public speaking.
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Danny Gluch: And one of the things we talk about is, well, what's the feeling? Because just being scared, and it always comes up, I feel like everyone is evaluating me. Everyone is judging everything I do.
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Danny Gluch: And you get that. I think some people really are evaluating and judging. They're sitting there counting the ums and things like that, and it's like, guys, stop it. No one cares if you say and if you do care, it's because you've never had a real conversation with anyone. Like, it's just ridiculous. And I think there's actually…
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Danny Gluch: a lot of the problem is that it's not that they feel that they're being evaluated, it's that they actually are being evaluated. And I think your talk in changing this language and
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Danny Gluch: You know, really coming in and, you know, hitting people's hands when they're doing the stuff that they're not supposed to be doing can really help shift this feeling of, like, oh…
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Danny Gluch: I'm not doing this anymore. We're not just being evaluated. You also used a lot of the we language, and I think that really brought in this idea of, like, it's not my individual magnifying glass on me, it's, hey, we're all just on this team doing this thing together.
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Danny Gluch: And let's… let's worry about where we stand, and how to keep improving, as opposed to…
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Danny Gluch: That feeling of, you know, being under the microscope, because no one likes that.
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Danny Gluch: And I think that this naturally puts you towards psychological safety, and I think that's one of the struggles with psych safety, is people, you know, read about it, and, you know, they read a couple of, specialty leaders read, like.
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Danny Gluch: a couple summaries of books, and they think that they get it, but they have no way… they don't understand how to implement it. Like, how does this look operationally, organizationally, for everyone in the organization? And I think…
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Danny Gluch: Switching over to these different structures and formats and languages really
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Danny Gluch: provides this different feeling, just like you were talking about, again, with that difference between what goals do you want to… or what goals do you want to achieve for your team this year, versus what problems and puzzles do you want to solve for them, to, like, immediately changes the feeling.
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Marion: Hmm…
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Radhika Dutt: You know, you brought up psychological safety, and it's related to the previous question which you asked, which was, can you do this within your team, or how influenced are you by other parts of the organization? You know, what I will say is that in this particular organization, there wasn't psychological safety outside our team, right? Our team, we'd created this environment where you really could share honestly
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Radhika Dutt: this, how well did you… how well did it work? What have I learned? What will I try next?
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Radhika Dutt: And what I will say is, first of all, you can create this bubble of psychological safety. Figure out where is your sphere of control, and you can create that, right? Without shooting the messenger, you can really encourage honest discussion, and you can create this bubble. And as you start to build this capacity within your team to be able to share information in this way, to be able to
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Radhika Dutt: Think in this way.
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Radhika Dutt: Then, you can spread these ideas. You know, then I had to tell leaders that, look, we're going to present information to you in this format. Whatever you do, you know, just because we're sharing bad news, don't…
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Radhika Dutt: don't kill that psychological safety. It's so fragile. You want to hear the good and the bad. And, you know, when I, then started getting the whole team to share this in monthly business reviews.
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Radhika Dutt: we actually had very insightful discussions, and the leader was starting to be more careful about not, sort of, squishing the information that was actually coming up, the insights that were coming up, right? And that was really powerful to see. And then we had to take it a step further, because there were some people in the organization who, you know, if the product team presented it.
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Radhika Dutt: They want it to look good, and they would sort of question some of your results or shoot things down, right?
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Radhika Dutt: And… but I will say that it had… it had to be this slow change and creating awareness within leadership so that you, you normalize this way of thinking across the organization. But I so agree with you. You know, we all talk about psychological safety, we all…
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Radhika Dutt: talk about these mantras of fail fast, learn fast, we should embrace failure. Doing it is hard, because there isn't a structure for it. I loved Amy Edmondson's book, The Right Kind of Wrong, but I was like, how do I actually implement this? This is the scaffolding that gives you that approach, and then around this approach, you can create awareness that
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Radhika Dutt: Do not shoot the messenger.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Marion: It's something that was just kind of…
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Marion: in my head, when you were speaking and when Danny was speaking, and when you mentioned Radical Candor…
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Marion: Because it's one of those ones where…
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Marion: I read that book and I loved it too, and then I saw… and then I saw it get misused.
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Marion: Well, I'm just being radically, like, right?
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Marion: And we've seen…
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Danny Gluch: Someone read a summary somewhere.
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Radhika Dutt: Exactly.
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Marion: Exactly, and then they're like, I'm just being radical with my candor, and I'm like, right? And I've seen that play out, and it speaks to the level of awareness and maturity and insight within a business, and also it speaks to a lot of the organisational culture, right?
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Marion: Where some leader has had a really good intention, a really good intention to bring this narrative, to bring this book, to give people a tool or a vehicle to be able to understand how to deliver feedback in a good way.
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Marion: But it's been completely misunderstood and misused and misapplied, and the damage that has sustained thereafter has been fairly big, right?
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Marion: And the same thing's happened with psychological safety. You know, again, like, these guys hear me at… when I hear people misuse and misunderstand the terminology, like, it sets me off, because I am so…
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Marion: concerned about it becoming another DEI, quite frankly. It's a bad thing, we shouldn't have this, it's da-da-da, it needs to go… like, and we're already hearing that, we're already seeing that, so…
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Marion: I get… I get really worried about that, because they… they're so essential.
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Marion: But the problem, again, is where these misuses and misinterpretations are coming in. It's typically because of lack of understanding, lack of transparency and trust, lack of capability and enablement, right? There's those themes again.
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Marion: And that's where they fall down, so I guess that goes back to the change management piece, right?
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Marion: How do you take… These concepts, these constructs that are so… Powerful!
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Marion: And set them up for success. Because when you…
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Marion: When you implement these in a way which hasn't really considered the maturity level, or the capability, or the enablement of the people that are going to use it and be around it.
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Marion: Then it can not just bomb, but it can actually have a completely inverse effect and create real sustained damage.
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Marion: So, I realize that's a thesis question in itself, but
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Marion: What's your thoughts on that? Because I think that's one of the genuine fears.
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Marion: that OD, L&D, HR practitioners have when they bring something this radical.
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Marion: Or perceived to be radical.
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Marion: To a leadership team, and they want it to… they want it to work, they want it to land, but the fear can get in the way, because
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Marion: The impact of it going wrong could be huge, and that's why people just get paralysed and don't do anything.
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Radhika Dutt: You know, it is so funny what you say about psychological safety being misused. I've seen this happen, actually. There was this, group meeting at an organization where they were like, why don't we have psychological safety? Get psychological safety! It's like…
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Cacha Dora: I can't order…
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Radhika Dutt: It will continue until morale improves.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: He's not on DoorDash, he doesn't come on DoorDash.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, you can't order it, literally or figuratively.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, but I mean, I think it brings up the point of, of…
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Danny Gluch: Even if someone really has the good intention of doing this, and they're, you know, they're trained and shown, like, hey, we want to go through this sort of, like,
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Danny Gluch: You know, this different way of questioning with objectives, hypotheses, and learnings, and all that, and reflections, and puzzles, and puzzle, you know, creating, puzzle solving.
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Danny Gluch: And… but, like.
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Danny Gluch: I just know some people are gonna ask those questions in a way that feels very evaluative, right? And it kind of… I just know it's gonna happen, because that's what they're used to. Your intent versus impact.
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Cacha Dora: Right?
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Radhika Dutt: Yes, yeah. You know, everything that you're saying, like, okay, I've been struggling with this question, right? And here's one of my big learnings. And a leader at Adidas who's been using this approach, really enlightened me on this. So.
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Radhika Dutt: The big mindset shift for leaders is that, you know, until now, what we've learned, especially in the Western world, is that leadership is all about knowing.
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Radhika Dutt: You know, it's all about, I come from a place of knowing, I know what is the problem, I know what is the solution, and therefore, I'm setting goals and telling you, you know, if you just do this and hit this target, then this is progress, because I just know.
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Radhika Dutt: Right? And the puzzle approach is very different, because it comes from a place of not knowing. It's the humility versus hubris. It comes from a place of saying, this is the observation that we can see altogether, that this is what's happening.
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Radhika Dutt: These are the open questions, things we genuinely don't know answers to, and what we have to investigate in the problem space. And that's where, you know, we start to figure out this puzzle together. Now, this leader at Adidas was telling me how when she started introducing this approach.
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Radhika Dutt: to her organization, when she listed open questions, even the team said to her, wait a minute, shouldn't you know the answers to this as a leader?
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Radhika Dutt: And she had to say to the team, vulnerably, and she felt like she was in this vulnerable position, saying to 20 people in that room, no, I don't know the answers to this, and we're going to figure this out together. You know, how many leaders have the security to be able to say that, right? To stay in the problem space? It's much easier
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Radhika Dutt: as a leader, to jump to the solution space, to say, oh, I know, I have a hypothesis, let's jump to this, this is what we're going to do, this is what data says.
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Radhika Dutt: let's go do this. This is why, here's your target, because data is telling you this. Go be data-driven, go look at data, right?
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Radhika Dutt: It's all this desire to stay in the solution space, get to solutions as quickly as possible, as opposed to staying in this uncomfortable space. Let's invite those questions. I don't fully understand what is going on. Looking at the puzzle long enough that we can
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Radhika Dutt: arrive at the first solution that's more effective, right? Otherwise, what happens? We have this mindset of, let's just iterate, we try things, we experiment, I'm gonna jump to hypotheses, and the result is, you find the local optimum, but not necessarily the… not necessarily the global maximum.
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Radhika Dutt: That's why you need to stay in the problem space. And so, the mindset shift, and this is why we misuse radical candor, this is why we misuse psychological safety, and why…
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Radhika Dutt: By the way, there's this whole fad of founder-led that Brian Chesky from Airbnb, he introduced this term, founder-led, which, oh my god, is just, you know, it's such a step back, unfortunately, in terms of all the progress that we are making. This whole founder mindset, or founder-led, is this idea that the founder knows best.
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Radhika Dutt: that, you know, because they founded it, that because they understood the problem so well, you know, they should unilaterally make decisions and everyone else should follow. Like, don't be afraid to make your unilateral decisions.
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Radhika Dutt: You know, I can see why Silicon Valley jumped on this.
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Radhika Dutt: And I really see this as an incapable leader, you know, someone who just isn't able to, to be able to delegate, right? And there's this fear of delegation, but the fear also comes from either you delegate too much, and you completely give up control, and you're putting all the responsibility…
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Radhika Dutt: abdicating leadership, where you're putting all the responsibility on your team. That's one approach. Or the other approach is, I'm going to micromanage everything. This is the Elon Musk approach, right?
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Radhika Dutt: And the happy balance is actually the hardest thing to do, to understand how well can I delegate, or how well, can my team take this delegation.
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Radhika Dutt: And then knowing what to delegate and how much, right? So, when you have the scaffolding of people sharing with you
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Radhika Dutt: how well did it work? What have I learned? What will I try next? I get a good sense of how well are they able to solve this puzzle? And therefore, I know how much to delegate, how much hand-holding does this person need, versus this other person has a lot more in terms of knowledge, skills, and experience. I do a lot more delegation with them. So using psychological safety and radical candor has to come with this sort of
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Radhika Dutt: scaffolding so that I know what is the right level of hand-holding, or just, you know, giving them a long leash. And we've missed that.
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Radhika Dutt: And the bad leadership that resulted from it is why we misuse radical candor and psychological safety.
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Cacha Dora: I bet, too, like, when you have that right level of assessment on your team, of…
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Cacha Dora: Who can handle what, and to what capacity, and to what scale?
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Cacha Dora: if I were using that same mindset towards looking at this goal-setting moment.
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Cacha Dora: It also should, in my mind, inform me that the… whatever is written, right, for an organization, if it is in fact a goal, if it's the problem that you want to solve, whatever it is, it should… it should be different.
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Cacha Dora: for those individuals, based on all of those things, instead of, I have 20 people who report to me, you all have the same goal.
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Cacha Dora: Because at the end of the day, you don't have the same goal, you're not going to achieve it the same way. It is going to be different. That's just my… there's my hot take based on all of what you just said.
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Radhika Dutt: Oh my gosh, you hit the nail on the head, because let's look at Andy Grove, the legendary Intel CEO, right? He instituted OKRs at Intel, and yet…
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Radhika Dutt: If you read his book, Only the Paranoid Survive, everything that he talks about in terms of how he transformed Intel from a memory chip company to a microprocessor powerhouse, he doesn't mention goals and OKRs even once.
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Radhika Dutt: What he talks about is experimentation and adaptation. That's what he emphasizes. But here's the thing, they do it through intuition. Like, he just had this innate gift for how do you do this experimentation, how do you drive it in your organization? How do you have psychological safety? Do you know that Andy Grove, he didn't have a corner office, he used to keep a same-size
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Radhika Dutt: Cubicle, as everyone else.
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Radhika Dutt: Why? Because he wanted everyone to challenge him to not be afraid to challenge him, that he wanted his opinion to be equal to everyone else's.
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Radhika Dutt: Right? Isn't that impressive? Like, that is how you create psychological safety. When you are so focused on psychological safety, creating an environment of experimentation, learning, adaptation, then whether you're using goals or OKRs, etc, doesn't matter.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm.
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Radhika Dutt: Here's the difference.
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Radhika Dutt: when Andy's successors came along, when they didn't have this innate gift for experimentation, learning, adaptation, for puzzle setting and puzzle solving, what they focused on was goal setting and goals… sorry, was, yeah, goal setting and targets. So, his successors, people like Bob Swan, Paula Tellini.
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Radhika Dutt: They hit all goals and targets, and numbers looked fantastic. Revenues were up and to the right. But you know what? They missed everything that matters.
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Radhika Dutt: they… Intel at the time, they decided, oh, you know what? When Apple asked them to provide chips for the iPhone, they said, no, not important enough for us. When it was time to, invest in extreme ultraviolet lithography, which is the next-gen density of chips, they said, oh, too expensive. They still… they didn't spend enough… they spent, but they didn't integrate all of that.
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Radhika Dutt: into their processes. They missed out on huge opportunities, like building standalone GPUs, which is why NVIDIA overtook the AI market. They passed on investing in OpenAI. All of these misses, because they focused on targets.
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Radhika Dutt: They lost that muscle for experimentation, learning, adaptation. So exactly to your point, Kasia.
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Radhika Dutt: whether you have goals and OKRs.
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Radhika Dutt: If you have this ingrained approach for puzzle setting and puzzle solving, you can do well. But that's the piece. It's really, really rare. It takes a legendary CEO like Andy Grove to have that innate mindset, which is why this whole framework for puzzle setting and puzzle solving that I call OLA, Objectives, Hypotheses, Learnings, Adaptations.
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Radhika Dutt: That's what gives you this framework so that you can build this skill, as opposed to relying on a rare, innate intuition.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, and it takes a lot, right? It takes a new structure, framework, mindset, attitude, language to get it to work, if you're not just, oh, this is, you know, like you said, this is just who I am, right? It's innate.
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Marion: And… is that something that you think.
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Danny Gluch: Can be scaled and taught and spread well, where as individuals are coming up in that organization, they'll learn to lead using those tools, as opposed to
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Danny Gluch: Defaulting back to, like, the way they do things.
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Radhika Dutt: Yes, and I feel like that is so key. You know, it's like a Jedi skill, you know, when you just tell people, use the Force, this is why the Jedis die out. What you need is a better framework than use the Force. So this is the kind of Jedi skill set building toolkit, right? Where Jedi Masters can now use this to train their apprentices that this is what you do.
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Radhika Dutt: So, here's what you can do as a leader. You know, as you're,
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Radhika Dutt: building this skill set in your team. Think about an initiative that you have been, working on. Think about it as a puzzle, and start by writing out those three O's for yourself. You know, the observation. What were some open questions? What was the objective, or the summary of this puzzle, right? Think about that puzzle and define it. And then, you can, present to your team for that initiative
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Radhika Dutt: this format of, how well did it work? What have we learned? What will we try next? And by doing that, you're role modeling for your team, both the framework, but also your role modeling for them, the psychological safety, that it's okay to share the good and the bad.
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Radhika Dutt: And then, you know, you can invite this team to be able to share information with you in the same format. You can build and scale this approach. And the way you do this is also, by the way, start with your really competent team, right? Start with just a few people, and introduce this to them. Have them share this information to you in the privacy of just a one-on-one meeting, and then you can slowly grow this to group meetings, and then.
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Danny Gluch: to, like, monthly business reviews, instead of presenting OKRs as, you know, red, green, or yellow, present how well did it work? What have we learned? What will we try next? So these are some actionable steps you can do next to start to scale this approach and grow it.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: That's amazing.
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Marion: I'm best.
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Marion: This is… this is a perfect time for this conversation, because again, so many HR practitioners, leaders that are just setting up for this
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Marion: stage in the business calendar as we get into the new year, and I think those who are confident and competent to be able to kind of experiment with this.
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Marion: Could really have some good fun with it, so…
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think this would set a lot of teams up for a strong 2026. I can't believe it's almost 2026.
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Radhika Dutt: By the time.
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Danny Gluch: this comes out, it might be 2026. Happy New Year, everybody!
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Danny Gluch: So, your book, though, is not going to come out until 2027, so what can people who are interested and teams who want to start trying this stuff out, who want to start experimenting with this, what can they do?
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Radhika Dutt: Yes, thank you for bringing that up. So, they can download the OLA toolkit, just go to radicalproduct.com, and I'll share the link for the free toolkit. I used to call it OHLs, but OLA just rolls off the tongue. Objectives, hypotheses, learnings, Adaptations.
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Radhika Dutt: So you can download the toolkit, start using it, and now that I'm working on this second book, I'm in the writing phase, so just, you know, feel free to reach out to me, talk to me on LinkedIn, just send me a message on LinkedIn, connect with me, and tell me about your experiences as you use Ola, and maybe it might just make it into the book as a case study, but I always, in any case, love to hear how people are creating change in their
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Radhika Dutt: organization, how you're being vision-driven, so feel free to reach out. And lastly, you can also get the Radical Product Thinking book in the meanwhile, that helps you take a more vision-driven approach and overcome product diseases. And maybe that's a whole different topic that we can talk about sometime in 2026.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, that would be fantastic. I know a lot of people have. What was the metrics one?
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Radhika Dutt: Hypermetrisemia.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, that's that's going.
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Cacha Dora: You said that narcissistic one, and I pulled a face I don't think is fit for public consumption. Oh.
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Danny Gluch: We will not be releasing the video of this podcast, don't worry.
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Cacha Dora: There's my cycle.
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Radhika Dutt: logical safety. I'm good.
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Danny Gluch: Radhika, thank you so much for joining us. This was such an incredible conversation. I hope you can come back again and actually talk about,
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Danny Gluch: the product diseases, I think that just is also super fascinating. And, everybody, you can find her link to her LinkedIn in the show notes, as well as a couple of other links she's gonna share with us with the free toolkit.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you, everybody, for listening. Be sure to like, subscribe, leave a 5-star review, help us get, found on the algorithms and all the Spotifies and, Apple Podcasts. That's really helpful. Thank you all so much. Have a great day.
