Dr. Matt Shiver: Cultivating Curiosity, Living Courageously, and Building a Team

In today's episode, we welcome in good friend and special guest, Dr. Matt Shiver.  Matt is a physical therapist turned entrepreneur and one of the bright minds in the health coaching world right now.  In this conversation, we talk about how curiosity has shaped his path, his desire to learn no matter what the topic and how important it is to have the courage to take risks.  We also talk about his journey from the world of weightlifting into bodybuilding, then into physical therapy and currently where it is in the world of entrepreneurship.  Lastly, we cover the different types of lifestyles that he's lived from being on the road, living in different places each month to really digging in and building his business in the online space.

 I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation just as much as we did.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the backseat driver podcast, where we attempt to look differently at the world of performance, psychology, and sport. My name is Chris DeMarco and by trade, I am a middle performance consultant. My co host Matthew is a doctor, avid runner, and someone who's not afraid to stir the pot, who also happens to be my brother. In today's episode, we welcome in good friend and special guest, Dr. Matt Shiver. Matt is a physical therapist turned entrepreneur and one of the bright minds in the health coaching world right now. In this conversation, we talk about how curiosity has shaped his path, his desire to learn no matter what the topic and how important it is to have the courage to take risks. We also talk about his journey from the world of weightlifting into bodybuilding, then into physical therapy and currently where it is in the entrepreneurship world. Lastly, we cover the different types of lifestyles that he's lived from being on the road, living in different places each month to really digging in and building his business in the online space. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation just as much as we did.

MD 1:10

Welcome. We have a wonderful episode for you guys today. Guest, Matt Shiver joining us. How are you doing

Shiver 1:18

today? I'm stoked to be here guys.

MD 1:21

We just introduced the podcast in the best way possible over a meal. And we told him everything. That we have been learning through the podcast and he's been dropping major knowledge bombs. So we're excited for this episode. Matthew's

Chris 1:34

been trying to get a lot of free information, which I kind of respect a little bit. Uh, the amount that you're trying to get out of them

MD 1:42

is good. You got to hustle. When you're around smart people, you got to hustle. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you

Shiver 1:48

gave me pizza. So, you know, it's a fair trade off the

MD 1:51

last, the last, the last guest we made carry a dresser up the stairs. This guest, we, uh, gave him free pizza. So I just put you to work or if you come on this podcast as a guest, it's, uh, it's look, things are trending upwards. So who knows by the time we get to like our 10th guests, they may get a free car or something like that. If we continue on this trajectory, steak dinner. Yeah. Um, yeah, probably the trend up to a steak dinner, but you never know if we, if we keep, uh, growing as much as we've been growing the first 10 episodes, you never know. So. Anyway, I, uh, I'm super excited for this episode. Matt and I have known each other for quite a long time. Chris is Chris has known Matt as well. So lots of connections here, but we also are just really, um, looking forward to this conversation. Think he has a lot of value to bring on the performance side on just.

Chris 2:49

Yeah, I think, I think one of the reasons we wanted to bring you on, um, was you have some similar interests that we have in what some of your background and we'll get into that in a second, but also you have a unique knowledge set that we also don't have. And so there's a little bit of crossover, like some similar interests, but also as we were talking earlier with some of the marketing stuff, um, that you've kind of got some expertise on. And so I think that's a really cool dichotomy to dig into. So let's go ahead and jump into it.

MD 3:19

So obviously got started at the beginning, which is, I think we'll fast forward probably towards, towards the end of college as we get started, talk a little bit about what the journey for you was like in college, as far as interest, um, you know, kind of things you were getting into, how you were deciding on where you wanted to go career wise and what that looked like for you.

Shiver 3:41

Yeah. So in college, I was really fascinated with performance, like human performance. I was, I was into, uh, I tried some keto stuff. Like I was always into what was the next diet or training program that could help me, uh, improve my performance, biohacking, yeah, biohacking in a way. Right. Except for, I had no idea what I was like, yeah, that sounds fun. Let's try that. So I would just, just was like in college. I was reading so much and just trying a lot, experimenting on myself. So at that time in my life, what I was really focused on was human performance, mental, physical, uh, just, you know, trying to look good naked, you know, track, track ladies too. Um, and then that, what that led to me studying in college was exercise science and I minored in nutrition. And from there, I, I actually had a few different options. I was considering. Like learning more and going down actually a research path. Yeah. So I looked into it a little bit. I didn't actually apply, but I did, um, talk to like the faculty about it and they were like, you should do it. It'd be so fun. We might get you a scholarship. Like

MD 4:47

we need someone to replace us. Cause we're going to retire soon.

Shiver 4:51

I was really, I was interested in that. I was interested in physical therapy and. I looked into chiropractic a little bit too, and out of all three of those, physical therapy was the, I imagine, would give me the most breadth of knowledge, and it was just like the most, um, like foundational, and just like, yeah, the most research based, I guess, in a way, and like, I also was really, uh, fascinated in it. Yeah. and pain pain was something I didn't know anything about. So I graduated from Appalachian in 2015 and then went to Duke for grad school in 2016. 2019.

MD 5:28

It's it's I can totally relate with what you just said about how you made your, your choice. I remember having conversations with different people as I was. Going through the last two years of college and having the exact same discussion of saying, well, you know, going into medicine gives me the most breadth of knowledge and also the most breadth of Opportunity as far as options doors it opens and I think that's been really true for you So I'll be excited to hear more about that, but I can totally relate to that thought process. Yeah

Chris 5:57

And one thing I want to point out, I thought was just funny. I don't know if you caught it was, um, one of the things we talked about in our, our last episode, it was kind of, we were talking a little bit about some health things, how to be a healthy person and what was the broad topic. Yeah. But one of the things we got into is this idea of experimenting on yourself. And the first thing you say is I love experimenting like kind of on myself, even if I don't fully know what I'm doing or getting into. But just kind of that mentality, um, having, knowing kind of what you do now, what you eventually got into, can you talk about that a little bit? Like, do you still have that? Oh,

Shiver 6:33

all the time, man, all the time. I, in, in college was a time when I started getting like blood work done on myself, which everybody else that was like kind of weird. Like why get blood work done? Do STD? Like, no, I don't have an STD, but, but I was just always fascinated by that. And then. Yeah. Now I do a lot more business coaching consulting, and that is so much test retest, make a hypothesis based off the data you got. That's a, what a lot of marketing is. I mean, if you're doing like data driven marketing, so I've always been like driven by numbers performance and it's shifted. And yeah, right now, a lot of my time energy goes into, into business. So, I mean, why I chose physical therapy, it was just like, I was so excited and interested in the topic, the same reason why I chose exercise science nutrition. And like right now I'm just loving business and marketing. So what am I doing? I'm like putting all my eggs in and testing and retesting and doing stuff in that. I love that.

MD 7:29

That really does sum up the last principle we talked about, which was curiosity, just this curiosity, this interest in. And how that really usually is a key characteristic to high performers or healthy people. You find that interest in just learning. Pursuing those areas where they find themselves daydreaming or thinking about or wondering about and actually pursuing the answer. So, I definitely see that in you. I do have to point this out. This is, uh, something that our last guest said as well. Um, but just talking about loving that real time feedback of their job. Um, Chris Drozd talked about that a lot in terms of why he loves the stock market. He's like, you test an idea and you immediately know within a month or two if, if that was a really bad idea because you're losing money, a really good idea because you're making money. And I think in the same vein, you kind of are experimenting with that on the, on the marketing side and getting that real time feedback too. So I think it's, it's just. Uh, I trend, I guess, of, of high performers that they like real time feedback. We like

Shiver 8:26

goals. We like, we like being able to assess, am I doing a good job or not?

Chris 8:30

Yeah. Getting good feedback matters for sure. Yeah,

MD 8:33

absolutely. So was it when you were at App State that you started doing Olympic lifting, bodybuilding? When, what stage was that in?

Shiver 8:41

Yeah. So I've been very competitive with strength sports for a while. I started. I started training and while I was, I started, no, I sort of, we'll start with, um, getting into just the gym. I, I, my mom actually got me a personal trainer for like, uh, probably for Christmas when I was in six or seven. Okay.

MD 9:01

I was, as soon as I asked this question and then you started down that road, it made me laugh because. I was really hoping you would go all the way back to middle school because Okay, so we went to middle school together and I have this this memory From I think it must have been seventh grade basketball because we had coach swanson as our coach Matt's out there starting every game and in sixth grade. I've been a starter and in seventh grade I, I literally did not take my warmups off the whole, me and one other guy at the end of the bench, just, I guess that's how I got into talking, you know, I'm not playing. So I'm like, I might as well commentate the game. But I remember Matt was so much stronger than I was. I was like, this guy either is lifting weights. Or is genetically very gifted for a seventh grader or both. And, uh, yeah, our body frames are a little bit different at that stage in our lives. So I'm really glad you went all the way back there. Yeah, that's like, that's like a core memory for me. It's so funny, man. He's sneaky. Good at basketball too.

Shiver 10:01

I don't know how you didn't get playing time. I really don't know.

MD 10:04

It's a source. So yeah, I'm not destroying me in basketball right now. It's one of those. It's funny. Basketball is one of those sports. I have to like. Play a little bit to be decent at whereas a lot of like soccer. I just I cannot play for six months go play Still good basketball's one of those if I go just play randomly I'm actually pretty terrible the first couple times and then it kind of comes back a little bit But it never was my natural my natural sport. I don't feel like Yeah, anyway, that completely derailed the conversation by just that memory popped in my head as you start talking. I'm really glad you went there Anyway back to the

Shiver 10:38

back to the story. Yeah, that's my turn yeah, so I in sixth seventh grades when I got my mom got me my first personal trainer and I Loved it. And this dude was a total bro like, you know, just very like it everything shaved just like bodybuilding stuff and I So I did that, uh, all the way throughout college, like high school was like training more of that style. And then I found CrossFit before I went into, uh, undergrad. So it was like my senior year of college, no senior year of high school. And started doing that type of training, which was very different than the bro work, you know, bro works very controlled. And, uh, CrossFit being the exact opposite of being like, Oh, I. Uh, constantly varied, high intensity, high intensity movements, uh, over a broad time, I think that's the definition of crossfit or a broad timed range or something like that, but it was very different and it was a new skill to learn. So then where does my mind go? Just like everything I'm like, I have to get better at this thing. So then I set goals with that and I did CrossFit for maybe like two, two, maybe three years and then. What I found from that was that I suck at weightlifting and weightlifting is really hard. Like weightlifting, the sport of weightlifting is the snatch and clean and jerk. Uh, which a snatch is just picking a bar up from the ground overhead in one movement without letting the bar slow down or stop. And then clean and jerk is bringing the bar from the ground to your shoulders and then overhead and essentially in two movements. The clean being to the shoulders and then the jerk being overhead.

MD 12:17

If you've never watched Olympic weightlifting, you should at least go YouTube it, but summer Olympics are coming up this year. Yeah, it is amazing.

Shiver 12:26

They're, they're so strong and they make it look so easy. You know, it's,

MD 12:30

um, I remember actually going back to getting free services from Matt. I, uh, when I was in med school, I did a year of Olympic lifting training, just interest. Didn't do it fully, but it was doing it a lot. And I would send him videos like. Once a week or once, I'm like, Hey man, how's this look? And he, he was very kind and gave me lots of good feedback. At least it's not new.

Chris 12:50

Yeah. Stealing advice from you.

MD 12:51

Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, isn't that what friendship, if he ever has a medical problem, he's welcome to text me That's true. Oh, okay. Noted. You guys got that. He's, he's gonna gimme free medication. Yeah, that's, that's on camera and on on tape.

Shiver 13:05

Um. Um, yeah, so I, I realized I wasn't good at weightlifting and that was the thing that was preventing my progress in CrossFit. So then I jumped into weightlifting and did that from my sophomore year of college all the way until I graduated PT school. And I just fell in love with that because it was so simple, right? It's not so simple, but it's very, it's just two movements. What was cool about that compared to CrossFit and bodybuilding was very measurable, right? So it was like, did I get stronger? Yes or no? And then you'd go through a training block, which could be 8 to 16 weeks. Did it, did it work? Yes or no? So I did that all the way until that point. And while there was a, I did a bodybuilding show in the middle of that just for fun. Um, but I went back to doing that after. So, so I have

Chris 14:01

a question for you, what, so one of the things that it sounds like you definitely love, but we kind of mentioned is this feedback cycle and getting some instant feedback. Do you ever struggle with things that don't give you that?

MD 14:16

I was just, I was just wondering the exact

Shiver 14:18

same thing. That's a great question. I was, I, I knew he was going to ask it as he started. Um, do I ever struggle? Well, I always like. I'd say yes, I do have a hard time personally with like setting longer term goals. So even in business right now, I have a newer offer, uh, which is like, we've been, this current offer has been around for about 14 months, but I can only really look like 90 days into the future and set goals for that. And it's, it's challenging for me to set goals and like my personal life to be on that stage because that's, that's the stage at which I can foresee the future in. Right. Yeah. So you, but you, you

Chris 14:59

kind of break it down into shorter,

Shiver 15:01

shorter term goals that will help me. So like every month I'll have like, what's the one thing that I want to get done this month? What's my one project. And I'll typically just do one main project a month and still have like one overall theme for the quarter. Right. But I still try to break it down into tangible, tangible results. But I try not to right now look too far in the future because I've done that whole like oh What's my five year tenure and none of that ever happens never happens, but if I can get clear on the next 90 days that gives me enough fuel and motivation to

Chris 15:40

Love that. Actually, that's something that I work on with people sometimes is when they feel overwhelmed is Breaking it down simplifying it. What can I do in this time frame even? Breaking down further than that, if, if necessary, um, and it seems like you kind of do that naturally with yourself. I don't, do you, do you share that at all with some of the people you work with or have coached in the past?

Shiver 16:02

Um, not right now. I have in the past. I have in the past. What I do now is a little bit more high level, a little less goal, goal work. I have in the past, but not right now, but it, but it is like, I mean, I own that my schedule, my own, my schedule, my tasks, my to do list and all of that stuff. And. Uh, I, for the people who I do work one on one, we often will do some of that work, but, um, yeah, I should, I should make more content on that.

MD 16:30

Okay. So we're even now we gave him an idea. He gave us a few ideas. Status quo. Um, so talk a little bit. Well, first, before I move on, I, were there any things from the bodybuilding show I've just always been so Intrigued by the world of bodybuilding and is so rigorous, so regimented, so dialed. Were there any things that you walked away from that being like, Oh, this is a really good principle for life, or walking away and actually saying the opposite of, This is something that I could foresee being an issue in my life if this was something, Or something that, um, could be a hindrance. Yeah, just

Shiver 17:13

basic principles. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Man, when I first got out of it, I, it's crazy. Training for something like that totally changes your mindset about everything. Cause all you think about when you're that hungry, cause you, you essentially get down as, as low as a body fat percentage as you can. And your ability to think is not nearly as sharp. You're always hungry. You're only thinking about food and working out for like that entire prep, which could be 12 to 16 weeks. Where all you think about is food, sleep, and working out. So doing that, it becomes, you start, like, I definitely had a lot of negative thoughts around like performance enhancement drugs, because I was like, this is all I care about. Why would I not take performance enhancement drugs? And it definitely got negative. And then you only saw yourself as like the problems that were there, right? Like, Oh, this, you know, my pecs should be bigger, you know, like I want bigger biceps and you always, and you think those thoughts. So like. Um, it was very interesting. Like, I, I really appreciated the discipline that went into it and also the awareness of how much food, like we eat and how much food we actually like, need to survive. Yeah. So like when I came off of that, I had a lot of negative thoughts around like my body. And I also had a lot of negative thoughts around like what other people put into their bodies. I was like, how could that person do that to themselves? They don't even know, you know, um, So yeah, it was a, it was an interesting journey. And then like, after all of that, like I had a negative relationship with like tracking food, working out, like there was a time in my life where I just was like, I'm not, I'm just going to hike. I'm not going to touch a barbell and I'm just going to hike. And, uh, it's been a constant evolution. Cause now I'm kind of actually going back to more of that style of training and I'm enjoying it, but it took me time. It was like almost like a trauma response has been like, Oh, must get away from all of this. And now it's like, Oh, there's some good there, but I just responded so negatively to it the after I saw the The way that my honestly my mindset was after the

MD 19:23

show. Yeah, that's something we talked about in the last episode, too Just how easy it is to have that shift of making food good and bad or certain foods good You know attaching value to food. So this X food is good. Why food is bad And then your brain just starts to create those dichotomies for more and more things. And I just, personally, having struggled with that in the past and body image, I, I was just curious if that was something that kind of blends into your psyche as you do that stuff. Yeah. Cause there is so much, like you said, discipline and it's to be that disciplined, you have to think about it a lot. So it

Shiver 20:01

consumed me and engulfed me, which like I'm now looking back. I'm grateful for and I learned a lot from yeah, I don't I don't see myself. I Don't know. I was like, oh could I ever do a show again? Maybe I'm in a much better space mentally and I know what I would be getting myself right you But a lot of those things will still come back up again Yeah,

Chris 20:21

no, I think consume doesn't seems like a great word for what you just

Shiver 20:24

described. Yeah. Yeah, it's

MD 20:26

consumed for sure That's what I've heard from other people that kind of describe doing shows is They talk about how consuming it is. So I'm always trying to pick people's brains that do it. I don't, I don't think I could ever personally do it, nor not sure. Body type. I'm not sure we have that. Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm not sure the, uh, fast Twitch muscle fibers to, to get hypertrophy actually exist. So I'll stick with running for now. Um, but so, so we've gotten to the end of college. We're making good progress here. Um, so. Talk, if you want to talk about PT school, you can talk about that, but I'm really interested, especially in that transitional time after PT school, thinking about what you want to do long term and kind of navigating them, what that looked like.

Shiver 21:11

Yeah. So I'll, I'll chime in on, on PT school. Cause I, that's where, honestly, where most of it started was, was knowing, all right, is this the right path for me? Because actually before PT school, like I shared earlier, that the whole reason I got into PT school is because I just wanted to learn. I just like learning. And I was really cool. This would give me the most like breath of knowledge to just learn. And I think a lot of people, uh, testing with, with, with school and education. We go into it for the career, right? And if we don't do the career, then why would we go to school? That's crazy. It's like, I just want to learn. Like, I even thought, man, it'd be so cool just like, to go get an MBA, even though, I mean, it would help me, yeah, but like, just to learn. And I'm like, man, what if I went and got like an accounting degree? Like, what if I just started taking a bunch of courses just to learn? You know? Um, but, coming back to the story, I realized that like, midway through PT school, that I was like, Yeah, maybe you should have done the research route or like, I don't know if this is exactly what I want to do. And I was probably about halfway through PT school. And I remember talking to my mom and she's like, well, just, just, just, just finish it. Just finish it. Like you're already there. It wouldn't make sense to get out. I'm like, you're right. I'm going to finish it. This is going to be good. Um, and during that time is when I started online coaching. So I had started my first online coaching business after the bodybuilding show, which was like right as I started PT school and I was coaching people online. While I was in PT school and you know, I wasn't making much money. I was probably like paying for rent and stuff like that, but I loved being online and being able to like work with people all over the country, being able to, I was right at the time, like writing their programs, um, helping out with just like nutritional guidance, not like dietitian work, but just giving them support and direction on that. And I love the flexibility of it. Cause if I was in a neuro class and I was like, I don't want to listen to this neuro, I just pull up my, my computer and just start like, you know, writing programs, exercise programs for my clients. It's like, I'm getting paid over here. What are you guys doing? And, um, so I, I realized how much fun that was. And I had in PT school, uh, actually had three jobs while I was in PT school. I was training as a personal trainer at, on Duke's campus. I had a CrossFit gym that I. like I was coaching people at a couple of days a week and had some private clients. And then I had some online coaching clients that were more performance driven, writing their training programs and all that stuff. And I was like, man, I'm helping a lot of people. So I knew while I was in PT school, I wanted to do something with that, like the coaching space. And the, while I was there, like the education, the knowledge I was getting was still being applied. It just wasn't, uh, directly being applied like I would have applied it in the PT setting, you know?

MD 23:53

Yeah. And I was, I was telling Matt during dinner that I feel like we, we would connect like once or twice a year as we were going through school together. And I feel like this is something consistently that. We have always shared, you know, this, this, okay, I'm learning, I'm kind of applying it maybe a different way, or I want to apply it in a different way, or I have an interest in applying in a different way. And so we were talking during dinner, how that's something I've always felt. We really connected over. I mean, what a really

Chris 24:19

cool mindset though, to go in, not even with the, to go to PT school with really sounds like not much of intention of ever becoming a PT. I mean, that just has to be

MD 24:30

pretty rare,

Chris 24:31

but also. Just the. Really what I pick up more from that is your overall just interest in learning. Yeah. That's what stands out to me. It doesn't seem to matter what it really is.

Shiver 24:44

Yeah, it doesn't matter. And it's always going to change. And I know it's going to change away from business and marketing. And when I feel, not like I've mastered it, when I feel like there's not something novel to learn, I'll probably pivot into something else. Whether that be investing, whether that's like real estate. I don't know. But like, I, I really am driven by kind of bring it back to the curiosity and just like learning. Um, and

MD 25:07

where was I going to go? I don't know. I keep interrupting. It's just so good that I just keep interrupting. No, it's

Shiver 25:12

okay. Oh, the transition. Oh yeah. Yeah. The transition. So. So when I graduated PT school, I remember like telling my classmates, I was like, yeah, I'm going to help this online coaching company, like get more clients. And like, it was at the time, um, I was partnering with a company that serves law enforcement officers. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to go work in clinic, like part time just hours. But really I'm gonna focus on building this online coaching company. What? And I'm like, I'm so

MD 25:44

pumped

Shiver 25:45

and they did not get it. And then, yeah, within, within, um, probably within 16, 18 months after graduating the online coaching businesses that I was a part of were growing so much that I just left the clinic and I went all in on that. And so many people were like, how could you do that? I'm like, I'm really excited about this thing. This is super fun. You know? And I never saw it as like, Taking a step away or like it was a loss to not keep doing it. It was just like, well, this is the most exciting thing. You,

Chris 26:16

you went where your energy kind of naturally took you. It sounds like totally.

MD 26:19

I think, I think it just takes so much courage though. I mean, I can personally speak to that. Like I, you know, you have these ideas. I feel like I think about all kinds of big ideas, but it, it's still, no matter how excited you are, it still takes a step of courage to go from, because the medical field is very defined, right? You're in PT, you're in, you're a doctor, you go to a clinic, it's, it's insurance based like that's very defined. You don't have to worry about it. It's like if you see the clients, the insurance reimburses you, you get paid. Versus these other fields or other areas where you take that expertise, they're a little bit less defined, right? So there's, there is more of that risk. There is a little bit more courage required to step out into that kind of blaze your own path. So I think for a lot of people, it's just. That unknown versus a lot of people in healthcare. There's it's a very known commodity. It's very stable. You know,

Shiver 27:12

we're going to

MD 27:12

need that service. Yep. So I think just speaking from my own kind of mindset and thoughts that have crossed my mind, um, I think that's probably a huge part of it.

Shiver 27:22

Yeah. Cause when I, when I graduated and partnered and I did some like PT work, it was all cash pay. So it was not at all out of network. So I jumped straight into that, you know, like I went straight from. PT school to, all right, you're, you're, you're going to be paid X number of dollars for the appointments that you see, you're also responsible for sourcing those leads, all that stuff. And I was like, okay, cool.

Chris 27:47

It's funny. It doesn't sound like it was actually harder to me as I'm thinking about your situation. It's one thing when you're like out of college or maybe even don't even graduate college, I'm going to do something unique or entrepreneurial. Because there's not really anything to lose, but in your sense, it was, I feel like if I were you, that would have, that would have made it a harder decision because you had the safe, stable options and it's like almost, I don't know, more courageous is the right way to put it, but it's like almost feels like a harder decision to put that behind you at least temporarily. To, to take a risk. Cause for me, like when I started my practice, I was like, I have nothing to lose, you know, that was a mentality, but, but that made it an easy decision. Whereas like for you, it was a little bit, a little bit different.

Shiver 28:37

Yeah, kind of. But I guess that's how you, how you see it. Right. Cause for me, when I, the way I saw it was like, man, worst case I go back. No, the worst case is I get, I start as a PT with like, you know, start at 50, 60 K a year and. Can just do that and be fine, or I could, you know, start my own thing and, and see where that goes. So I never really, and I still have my, my license in South Carolina. So I, I still have been maintaining that. So it's still like, you know, if I decide one day I want to do it again, guess what? They're always hiring physical therapists. They're everywhere. Right. And I, I know now that I know how to market, I could just open my own clinic and probably have a full caseload in three to six months. Being aggressive with marketing because I, that's what I like to do now. So like, I know what I would need to do to have a, to create a business.

MD 29:32

It's so, it's so subtle what you just said, but it's such a important principle. And it's actually something I talked to my patients about, which is like fear setting, you made such a subtle little shift with the way you frame that, that decision, but what's the worst thing that can happen if I take this chance? It's that I end up in the job that I'm trained for anyway. Versus I think most people would say, what's the worst thing that can happen? I lose my job. I have no income. Who knows where I'll be in like their, their fear setting takes them to a place. That's not realistic versus the realistic worst case scenario is actually just, Oh, I actually just ended up doing maybe something I'm not quite as passionate about, but still, like we just talked to all those things we described about healthcare, like primary care. Always hiring PT, always hire, you know, that is pretty

Shiver 30:22

good. Like it's, it's well above the norm, but even like, if you do worst case, worst case, I remember someone told this to me when I was getting started. I was like, all right, what happens? You go bankrupt. You go bankrupt. Does that mean you go to jail? No, you, you, your credit goes lower. And then what happens after like 10 years, your credit goes back up. So like, it's never like worst case unless you like go to jail, you die, like, you know, there's really not that bad if you go bankrupt. Like we're in a civilization in the United States where it's not the worst case scenario. I mean, it sucks for sure. It's not good. But like you can bounce back here in the states if you declare bankruptcy.

MD 31:04

Yeah, I just think that's such an important subtle little thing that really you see I see people go into these like anxiety tailspins About the worst case scenario, you know, it's like oh this could happen and then this could happen and this it's just paralyzing Verse your mindset, your approach is so freeing, you have freedom to move, freedom to chase that curiosity because of that mindset.

Shiver 31:28

So, yeah, I think, well, I mean, we can keep going in this, this is fun. Um, cause like now that's where it felt that it still feels that way, but that's it also, your mindset will shift again. And this is what I'm experiencing now is as you build a team. So like when I first was just a solopreneur and like I had some partnerships in businesses and I was doing all freelance work. It was overall good, like now I've got a team and I now am not, I mean, the mindset, am I responsible for them? Yes or no. It's like, well, you know, I, I feel story knowledge. I feel responsible for them. Am I really responsible? No. Like they're responsible for themselves, but that's where now the, the pressure comes in on me and like the fear that I have or the thoughts that I have, I'll catch myself in the same like. same thoughts So I think the mindset shift for me, my thoughts is what if I, what if, what if we only make this amount this month? How am I going to pay my people? Right? How am I going to pay for them? Like I know I can be fine, but what about them? And the mindset shift for me now is knowing that they're responsible for them. And I'm going to do the best I can to provide, but that's not my responsibility is to be responsible for them.

Chris 32:41

Yeah. Did, was there a point? In time where that shifted for you, did you ever have the first mindset? And then, and then you kind of recognize that and shifted it when you had employees. So repeat it

Shiver 32:52

in a different way. So

Chris 32:54

when you first had an employees, was that your mindset initially of, Oh, I'm now responsible for those people. Yes. And then sure. Okay. And then at what point did that shift for you?

Shiver 33:06

It's still evolving, honestly, it's still evolving. I still feel pressure towards, towards that to, to provide for those people. So I think it's, it's still evolving and it's just, I mean, everyone has, has those mind, has those thoughts and mindset. And it's just like being able to acknowledge that those stories are playing and that they're just stories. You know, I love that

Chris 33:28

because that's, that's one of the psychology, uh, Principles I talked about with, with clients is your mind does that to you. It's a great storyteller. And to Matthew's point, we'll take you down that rabbit hole, but you, we can give that story power and listen to it or, or we can kind of diffuse or detach from it and just make the best decision going forward that we need to not listening to that story necessarily.

Shiver 33:56

Yeah. And I think it, like I do the same thing. What's the worst case? This is the worst case. I'm like. Oh, we're still okay. Everything's fine. You know, like everything's fine. Like you, you can play it out and then you realize that the story, like the worst case isn't that bad. Okay. Worst case. Cool. I have to let everybody go. And I go back to that free state where it was just me again. That's not

MD 34:16

so bad, you know, have you ever, have you guys ever seen the, I know we've talked about it, Chris, but the concern and responsibility circles are concentric circles. So, so the, the inner circle is your responsibility circle. So that's like the responsibilities you actually have. So for me, it'd be like my kid and my wife essentially. And then everything outside of the responsibility circle is your concern circle. So it helps, like, I think it really helps frame this, what it should look like. But what a lot of people do is they take all the people in their concern circle and they start to somehow get into the responsibility circle. So I think those circles are really helpful as a way of like describing. And that's something that Someone told Shelby and I, well, Shelby was taught that by one of her mentors. And then she shared it with me when we were dating. And it's been, it's just so, so, so helpful for me in terms of framing that.

Shiver 35:08

Yeah. I even like the word, cause like I said, I feel responsible for them. I know I'm not responsible. So it's even having a different word. Like I have concern versus I feel responsible automatically in my body. I already feel a difference between like using those words, you know,

MD 35:24

So that's like one of my absolute all time, like in my top five or ten like, you know, descriptions or images that I use. I love that too. I didn't, I actually didn't know that. Okay, well that's, that's bonus. That's bonus. Um, so, what's uh, Let's go ahead and just dive into what you're doing now. You know, we've, we've derailed you. All right. One more story. One more story before we dive in. Hopefully this isn't seventh grade. No, this is even, this is even weirder. All right. So yes, you did it. So hopefully, you know the story. So I ran a marathon and like, whenever you graduated PT school that year, you were doing that transition and I like hurt my hip flexor so bad. It must've been 2019. I think I could like not walk and Matt's in town. And he's like, Hey man, just come on over and we'll do some dry needling. And that's when, you know, that's when, you know, your friendship is like at a full trust level when you let someone dry needle your hip flexor, because there are a lot of important things in there. And, uh, no, you, it worked pretty well. I mean, dry needling, I feel like, yeah, but you at least, you at least didn't hit like an artery or nerve, you know, my legs still works and I'm not bleeding out. So, but that was like, you know, you're like really. You got a friendship trust and you let someone dry, needle your hip flexor. Sorry. All right. That was my last story that I was thinking about during that transitional period. But yeah, you've kind of touched on it a little bit, uh, you know, over the last few minutes, but. What is like, what has that transition look like for you now? You know, what are you doing now? And what are some of the things that are really like energizing you through your work right now? Yeah.

Shiver 37:08

So right now I'm doing a lot more business coaching, consulting, helping online coaches get more clients and I'm doing, I'm primarily working with health coaches. So it could be personal trainers. It could be physical therapists, chiropractors or physicians that want to create online offers. And I love it. It is so fun. Um, it kind of coming back to the curiosity piece, like where I feel the most excited now is learning how to market, how to communicate and how to, yeah, like grow a business. And it is so fascinating because like whenever I'm excited to learn something, it's really fun to be able to learn it and then share it with more people. So yeah, the current offer we have right now is helping health coaches start and scale their coaching companies to. I think it's a six figure ranges. Most of them are starting either. Most of them are starting under 5, 000 a month. And our goal is to get them to a place and give them the tools that they could have a coaching business that can do 20, 000 a month. So still like relatively small solo business, maybe have one or two employees, but it's a very free, very free feeling like business when you're at that stage. Yeah.

MD 38:23

What are some of the, Um, the things you've enjoyed most about just the flexibility that that transition has given you as far as like where you work for. I remember like a year or two ago you did a ton of traveling you, but in your posting all the places you're working from coffee shops and Zion and things like that. So talk a little bit about, you know, obviously we talked about how structured healthcare is, but talk about some of the things that you've really enjoyed about this less structured.

Shiver 38:50

Yeah, it's like when you, when you get into like running your own business, especially online, you're like, look at all this free time and all this stuff. And then you start getting into the place. You're like, well, I want to build something. When I was in the free stage of like, I wanted to travel. That was, it was all of 2021. Um, I was traveling for six months out of the year and I would hit up a different state every single month. So at this point I was all online and, uh, It's just a lot of fun and, and I would just go, we started in Sedona, Arizona. We camps for two weeks. So I'd camp in my truck, you know, I had a dog with me and we'd like grill on this. George Foreman. Not like a grill, like a, um, a propane grill. Yeah, not a George Foreman. That'd be kind of weird.

MD 39:35

I was saying, you just plug that into your car.

Shiver 39:37

Um, but I would, I would, I would just camp. I would grill on the propane stove and go to a coffee shop from like eight to 12. And get all my work done in the morning, and then I would just go hiking the rest of the day. And then I would just keep repeating that, and I could message people in between. But I just like, learned out how I could just batch all of my work, and be productive for a four, five hour stint, and then spend the rest of the day just like, playing, hiking. And it was

MD 40:06

so fun. Was that kind of part of the transitional time from like, knowing what you want to do and then Really seeing like, okay, what is this life style going to look like? Like, would you say that was the time where you were really exploring that? I heard you've been doing it before and we're just using that time to kind of reset and

Shiver 40:24

reframe. I think it was a mix of both. Cause like when I was in PT school, I hated working in clinic nine to five. Cause some of the, some of the stuff that we would do is like, we'd keep seeing people repeatedly throughout the week, like two to three visits. And for some of them, it's like, man, you can do this on your own. So I was like, what if I could get the clients the same results or patients results without having to see them that frequently? So I was really burned out just from my rotations being in a physical location for 40 hours a week. And so when I wasn't in clinic on my rotations, I would just go travel and I would just like go hiking. I was like, I'll do more of this. So I always wanted to do that. And then when I, in 2021, when I actually was like fully remote, I was like, I'm doing that right. Like, like, and that was the first thing I did. So for six months, I didn't really focus on growing my business. I was just traveling again. We would sit in Sedona, Arizona. Then we went to Zion for a month. Then we went to, we kind of bounced around in California for a month, stayed outside Lake Tahoe. Then we went to Bend, Oregon for a month and was awesome. And then we spent a few weeks, uh, outside of, of Seattle and gig Harbor. Yeah. And then I drove all the way from Seattle back to Charleston and drive. Oh man, it was so fun though. So yeah, I got two

Chris 41:52

questions for you on, um, one being honest, was it? As good as it sounds, because I think when I hear that and a lot of people hear that, it's like, that's the dream, right? Be able to box my work hours in the morning and then just have like the rest of the day, I can go wherever I want. Was it truly like as great as it sounds? And then, um, The second is,

MD 42:21

well, let's start with that one and I'll ask the second one.

Shiver 42:23

Yeah. Well, during this time too, I wasn't in transition stage from like, till what is the next thing I want to do? So a lot of that time, like, yeah, it was great. I was doing that thing. But a lot of that time was brainstorming on what is the next thing that I wanted to do. So even though it wasn't like working during those, those afternoon hours, My mind's always going, right? So I'm always curious and thinking about the thing. I might not be doing the thing. So I use a lot of that time to, to brainstorm. Um, but there is definitely a lot of anxiety present at that time of like, well, what is the next thing that I'm going to do? So from a, I don't know if that answers your question.

Chris 43:02

No, it, it, it does a little bit. So you use that time, even though you weren't, weren't working, you were. And I know, I know what you're talking about, like, you know, taking walks, whatever it is to like help you think, organize your thoughts, create ideas and things like that. Yeah. So it

Shiver 43:19

wasn't like, Oh, play time, play time. I, yeah, yeah. I mean, even now, like I, I spend a lot of my time working or thinking about it because I'm like very passionate, excited about it. At that time, it was much more, I needed that time almost to create and step into what the next thing was going to be. Right. No,

Chris 43:37

that, that isn't. That is a cool answer. Yeah. So you view it as like almost necessary to being able to like, have, stay on top of things, have ideas, clear your mind, stuff like that.

Shiver 43:47

Yeah, and I, I, after I did that, I was like, man, I think I need to do this more often. Like take a large percentage of, I dunno if it's a year, I don't know mean of a year but just like more frequently travel because as you surround yourself in new environments, new scenery, it's just different. It's just like new, a new stimulus. Yes. And you're like, oh wow. And you start to see things differently when, and then coming after that happened, I was like, I'm going back home. And I went and we came back to Charleston and I was in like my routine. I was in a routine I could build, but when you're, when you're traveling like that, you can't really build, you can definitely maintain a business or whatever you're doing, but I was not in a stage of growth. I was in a stage of like. Thinking, maintaining, and also just like exploring what I, at the same time, while I'm doing, while I was doing that, I want to grow, you know what I mean? So it was just like patients you'll get to the chance to grow and use all this creative energy when you're in a more like grounded space, there's, there's

Chris 44:51

almost like a cyclical relationship of this. Um, gosh, in psychology, we call it like the balance of doing and being, you know, like there's this level of being. In order to kind of get the ideas and to do, and then you do it and you, you do it and then you need to be again, and that's kind of what it sounds like you kind of did, um, in order to, to get to this place. I also, something that comes up in my mind is, um, I think it was Bill Gates who, and I think he might still do this, that like literally will book a week. For him to do them. It's like he, um, he's doing like a beer a year or every six months or whatever it is like in the woods where he'll just like, go think right. And just kind of be, and let his mind do what he, whatever he wants to do in order. And I thought that was really cool. And maybe you're kind of doing that subconsciously a little bit with struggles.

Shiver 45:38

Yeah, maybe. I'm, I'm definitely, I tend to be more of a doer than like a beer. And you can ask my girlfriend that too. She's like, yeah, he does it a lot. And it was challenging to be in that state for that long of a time because it was like, it was six months and I still was doing, I was trying to do some things, but it was really hard to do that

Chris 45:58

with travel. So I think that answered my second question too, of what, which was going to be, what stopped you from living that lifestyle? And that

Shiver 46:05

kind of answers it a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I really wanted to build, build something and I was, I was finishing up one gig at the time and it was, it was a transition period. So it was like, all right, this thing now, at the end of that. I left that, that business, so I, I needed, needed something else to do and I was like, all, I have nothing to do. Like, I, I, it's, it wouldn't be very fun to live a life where I didn't have anything to do. Yeah. Like no goals to work towards, like, none of that. Like Sure. It'd be like, oh, I could just play all day, but like, that would get boring. Yeah. To me, I get boring pretty fast and business is where I put most of my. Competitive energy now too, right against myself, just like I used to do with like training. It was like, here's my goal. I'm going to do this so I can hit this. And now I just use that same competitiveness and distance. Yeah. It's

Chris 46:53

funny, like bringing up this, this contrast of like what sounds good to people and versus like what is actually, um, purposeful. Yeah. And I think it sounds good on the surface to. Live that lifestyle of I'm going to live in a new place every month and explore the world. And maybe there's a season of life that there's a time and place for that. But from what, what I've heard people that have done that is like, it's hard to build deep relationships like that. It's hard to, like you said, build something, actually really truly build something and get deep work and grow toward a goal or, or something that's meaningful toward you. And. So I don't know, that's cool that you've kind of experienced a little

Shiver 47:35

bit about it. Yeah. And I think it's good. Like what I was really grateful for, and I still am grateful for is I have, I have the ability to do that if I need it, you know? So if I needed to go travel for another six months, I've created the lifestyle and like the business that would allow me to do that. So it's like more of the flexibility of choice, you know what I mean? It was a cool part of like, Ooh, I can do this. So I'm going to go do this. Do I want to choose doing this all the time? Absolutely not. But because I have the choice to do so it's it feels very that feels freeing Almost more so than doing the actual thing

MD 48:11

And if I remember correctly to you were traveling with other people, is that correct? There are a couple other people. Yeah so that also probably Made that experience more valuable. Having people to bounce ideas off as you're doing those things. Not just being alone. Yeah. Yeah.

Shiver 48:27

That would not be fun. We were all, we're all like health coaches and it was all, it was cool that we could all do that together.

MD 48:36

Cause it's not normal because I think that adds a lot of, right. It's one thing to have this space to, and I can totally relate to what you're saying in residency, my first year. I remember getting to the end of the first year and being like, wow, I haven't listened to a podcast in 10 months, which for me, I listened to two podcasts a day. Normally, you know, it's like for me not to, sorry, excuse me for me, not to listen to a podcast for 10 months. That just shows you how much mental energy was being tied up in for me residency. But when you don't have that space to step away. Kind of process those thoughts. Just be creative. It takes quietness. It takes time where your mind is not consumed to actually be creative. And so I can totally relate. So. Why that was so important and I can totally relate to why you got to a certain time You're like, okay, I've been you know, my mind's had enough time to create it only reflects so much

Shiver 49:38

And to your point like there's deep relationships like I wanted a girlfriend I was like I can't go to a new state every month and be like, I'll see you later Like I'm just not gonna work so I wanted I wanted that too and I knew I could that's what ultimately led me to Austin was that I Imagine that my partner or someone who's in the health wellness space And yeah, it was, that was smart. That's smart. I got

MD 50:02

a good girlfriend now. It's funny. Cause as you say that I realized for a moment, I was like, Oh, I don't even know where he's living right now. You're still in Austin. I'm still in Austin. Yeah. Yeah. We had that, that didn't even come up too busy getting, getting advice. Um, cool. Well, I just want to give you kind of the last couple of minutes, you know, if there's anything that you're, you've been really excited about, or you feel like is. that you want people to know about you or really just anything that you have found energizing over this last year, you know, so we kinda, this will be released in 2024. So you'll give people their first, first big thought of the year. But if you have any of those things that you'd want to. What people know about you or share with people. Just kind of give you that time here to finish up. Yeah, I,

Shiver 50:46

I just would encourage you to follow your excitement and follow what, uh, what your, your heart, heart share tells you to do. Like, you know, I, I think it can be very easy for us to look analytically at what's the best career path and what's the safest option. But, um, for me, it's like, it's just trusting that my intuition and where my heart's taking me is where. I should be, so I encourage you to tap more into that, do whether that's like a journaling practice, whether that is like, if you like meditations for me, I love long walks in nature, like with maybe music, maybe it might be minimal, like kind of background music, but that gives me a lot of clarity door. And I'm like, all right, I know what to do next. Right. So just taking that time and space to, to listen to yourself. For

Chris 51:36

a second, when you said follow, I thought you were going to shout out your social media and I was like, nice.

MD 51:41

Oh, well, we should definitely do that. Well, yeah, I was going to say,

Chris 51:43

do you want to, where can people find you, your business, all that

Shiver 51:46

stuff? Yeah. Uh, you can find me on Instagram. It's going to be at dr. Matt Shriver, D R Matt Shriver. Same thing for YouTube. Same thing for Facebook and then, uh, websites, Matt Shriver. com.

MD 51:59

Awesome. That's easy enough to remember. I also think it's funny. I always. I feel like in healthcare, whenever there's another doctor, you forget to call them doctor. Like it just doesn't, it never even crossed my mind. I was like, Oh yeah. And same thing. Like when we're talking to each, so it was just funny as you're saying, I was like, Oh yeah, Dr. Matt, so. Well, Chris, any closing thoughts?

Chris 52:21

Thanks for, thanks for coming on. I enjoy this conversation. Hopefully

MD 52:25

you guys, yeah, I've, I've had a blast just getting to catch up and getting to hear some of your thoughts tonight, so thanks for making the time and thanks for coming on. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Sweet. We'll see you guys next week.