What We Have Been Learning Lately Pt.1: How to Spot Fake Expertise, the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and the Obsession with Longevity

In this episode we reflect on what we have been learning lately. We talk about books we have read over the past month and our main takeaways from those books. In addition, we discuss some of the topics that have come up on our recent ski trip to Utah. Lastly, we have a little fun as we put this knowledge into practice discussing some of the latest fitness and wellness trends that are probably not worth the hype. Hope you enjoy part one of this discussion.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to this week's edition of the backseat driver podcast. In this episode, we will be going through some different books. We've been reading recently in some of the main takeaways we've had, as well as some of the discussions that have come up during our ski trip with my dad and my brother. We will talk about things such as thinking again from Adam Grant's book. we will talk about. Some of the common misconceptions in the fitness and wellness industry, as well as how to spot people who are truly experts. First people who seem to pretend to be experts. Lastly, we'll kind of go through some fun. Uh, case studies of exactly what that looks like in the world, especially on social media. And we'll have a little bit of fun while we do it. So we hope you enjoy this episode without further ado. Here's part one of our discussion about things we've been learning lately.

Chris: 0:49

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Backseat Driver Podcast live from Snowbird, Utah. Actually, I don't know if that's the town, but that's the mountain that we're at. So we've been here all week and we have a kind of a unique episode for you guys today. We're going to go through, we've really had an opportunity to kind of slow down this week. Do some skiing, read some books, hang out, have some conversations about things. And in that time, we've really been able to share some ideas that I think would be interesting conversations for our podcast today and hopefully for you guys as well. So let me welcome in. My famous co host, who, well, sort of famous now, he had an article come out this week.

Matt: 1:32

Yeah, I got a couple of posts got featured on the Roper Instagram. Had a couple of local dietitians and athletic trainers give me some shout outs too. So I'm feeling, feeling like the brand is building.

Chris: 1:44

Yeah, so I, I got his autograph already a couple times this week, just in case it blows up.

Matt: 1:49

The article was, It was on supplements. We posted it on our, our page on Instagram. So most of you, if you're listening to this, I've probably already seen that, but it was a fun interview. It was fun to kind of get to look at that a little bit more in depth and give people, I think probably a viewpoint that they don't hear a ton. You know, I think the, and we'll get into this, but that space is so saturated with. Pro supplement viewpoints that a lot of times there aren't a lot of people stopping and saying hey, is this worth it? What is worth it? Where's the actual research? You know, even if it does work a little bit is it worth the benefit that you're getting from it. So I really enjoyed the interview and focusing more on the forest and not on, not on a single tree in the whole forest. Yeah. So

Chris: 2:34

where, where could people other Roper Instagram, is that kind of where you could find it?

Matt: 2:37

It was posted there. It's also, it's on, it's in Charleston today, the magazine. So it's on their website as well. It's like Charleston today. And then the article was just, I think it was like a local physician's take on supplements. So yeah, if you just Google that, it'll pop right up,

Chris: 2:53

but awesome. Yeah. So, so brief update on our lives. Like I said, we are in snowbird just kind of on vacation. That's me and Matthew as well as our dad out here, and we've had to. A successful trip. This is the last day out here and no one's been, well, sort of no one's been injured other than a minor tweak by the old man. But other than that, it was, it's good. It's snowing right now. It's beautiful out here. So we're, we're really thankful to have had this opportunity.

Matt: 3:20

Yeah. We'd be remiss not to give a shout out to my wife for for her gracious act of letting us come out here. I think

Chris: 3:28

people, yeah, I think people

Matt: 3:30

would want to know there'd be some hot takes from some of our listeners. Yeah, this

Chris: 3:34

is, so we'll just throw a grenade in here just to kind of let people stew on it. So Shelby is what? 36, 36 weeks pregnant. Yeah. And Matthew was on a

Matt: 3:45

ski trip. It was a joint decision. I just want everyone to know that this was not a, not a decision that I actually pushed for. I actually told her that. I was open to either thing. She actually was the one that kind of got the ball rolling and said that she thought it'd be a good idea and felt good about it. So shout out Shelby. Yeah. Shout out Shelby. And she's our sponsor for this episode. We had a, we had a really good week. I read a ton of books. We had a ton of really good discussions and those will kind of be the basis of our conversation for today. So let's get into it. I was going to say, let's jump in.

Chris: 4:20

So we're going to give a couple of book shout outs today. So the first one that we've kind of both read, you read the whole thing. I've kind of dabbled in a little bit is Think Again by Adam Grant. You want to describe, since you've actually read the whole thing, what the basis of it is? Yeah.

Matt: 4:36

So I think the, the basis of the book is this idea of, like it says, thinking again. So basically taking any, if you hear me coughing during the episode, it's cause I've picked up some kind of illness or, or something bad is happening, but I have this crazy cough. So if you hear me hacking up along, that's why, but essentially the idea is this think again principle, which is to take beliefs that you may hold strongly or things that you. Think to be true and look at them more openly, ask questions about them, have a curiosity. I think that was really one of the big things that stuck out to me about, about this book was the curiosity piece. It seems like he really wanted people to look at their beliefs and say, you know, why, why do I look at it this way? Why do we do it this way? What are some of the pitfalls of that? What are some of the potential weaknesses of that instead of just. Being so entrenched and have your belief so wrapped up in your identity that when you start to question your beliefs, you start to feel like you're questioning yourself. And so he really went into to that and how, if you get those two things too closely linked beliefs and identity, then it's really hard to rethink because every time you're asking questions or if something possibly has data that's contrary to what you, the current position you hold, then you feel like you are questioning a part of your identity. And so I think that's. You know, part of the book, he goes into different aspects of. You know, rethinking for yourself, rethinking for like a group and then teaching others how to rethink. So those are kind of the three parts of the book that he goes into.

Chris: 6:12

And it was a, it was a perfect book for this week with some of the, with your article that just came out the book I'm reading actually, and I'll get into that a little bit later called. Dr. Mike Gervais called the don't fear what other people think about you. I can't remember the

Matt: 6:30

title, but the first principle of mastery or something like that.

Chris: 6:34

First principle of mastery. Don't think about, don't worry about what other people think about you. That's what it is. So. With with all of those things one of what Adam Grant talks about in this book and it's come up in many books So I know we've read but it's one of my favorite psychological principles The Dunning Kruger effect and so if some of you guys aren't familiar with what that is Do you want to explain and then I'll fill in any

Matt: 7:01

blanks? Yeah, so I should have I just he goes through the study I actually can't remember the exact Initial study, but they I believe they're actually presenting it at this kind of like fun Nobel Prize type of event where Scientists take fun ideas. Basically, it was kind of a joke. Yeah, it's like the egg awards or something like that I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right? But yeah, it's kind of like this fun event for scientists where they present research that's Not super serious but interesting, essentially. And so, they presented this study they had done where they basically looked at people, how people rated their knowledge and then rated their competency. And, and then they actually tested it. And so, it was funny because the people who had the least amount of actual knowledge on the objective test, rated themselves very high in terms of competency and, and perceived knowledge. And then the people that were generally closer to being experts or, you know, above average, generally rated themselves either appropriately or a little bit less knowledgeable or less competent. Then they actually scored on the objective test. And so it gave rise to this, this, basically this curve. It's called the Dunning Kruger effect, and there's this curve that kind of describes it. And, and basically the curve is shaped in a way that when, you know, nothing, you know, you know, nothing. So when you're first starting something, you realize, you know, absolutely nothing. So you have this appropriate balance of like your knowledge and your perception of your knowledge, but then as you get a little bit of knowledge. Your, your perception of your competency and your perception of your knowledge grossly outpaces your actual knowledge. So on this curve, it's really funny the, and I think again, he draws this curve up, and I think this is their actual curve they put in the research study, but he labeled it Mount Stupid, which is basically the place where you think you know enough to be an expert, you think you're really smart about something, and you think you have a very well held position that's supported by a lot of facts, but in reality You know nothing, you're not very competent, and you're completely unaware that you're not competent. Yeah, so, so I'll give an

Chris: 9:19

example as you're talking, I'm kind of thinking about what, in my life, maybe where this shows up. So, you know, an area that I'm like, I know nothing about would be like fashion, right? I know, I know nothing, I know I know nothing. So I would never speak up if someone was like, having a conversation about fashion. I'm like, no. This is what we need to do, right? So, so I'd be low on the curve, which is, which is obviously fine in that situation, but then you take a, a, a concept like, I don't know play calling in football, right? I've watched a lot of football over the years, but I've never played football. I've actually, I've worked with a lot of sports, but I don't think I've ever worked with a football team. So. So there's a lot of like, I think I know what I'm talking about. I think I know what teams should do in these situations, but at the same time, like, I don't really, I probably am way more confident in what I say to about like when I'm watching a football game with friends than I actually know versus like a coach who's been coaching for 20 years, you know? So, so that's probably an area for me. And then, and then on the flip side of things like, okay, an area of expertise. Of like sports psychology, right? I mean, there's so many questions people ask me all the time, questions about things and like over half the time answers, like it depends what's the context, like all these things that there's like really no definitive answer, at least not giving a confident answer. And I know in medicine for you that that would hopefully be the case. And so just to kind of give like an Put an example to the the theory that you laid out very nicely

Matt: 10:45

Yeah, I thought one example he goes into the in the book at the end in terms of you know Kind of teaching large groups of people how to rethink as he talks about climate change and you know one of the ideas he goes into with climate change is Generally people that are closer to mount stupid on the dunning kruger curve Look at climate change is to basically a dichotomous option. So you have two options. Basically, it's either happening or it's not. And that's where people that are generally at that point where they think they know everything about how people view it, the different viewpoints, the different like groups that exists basically just separate into two tribes. But then he went into and he said, well, people that actually are experts in this and are farther along on that curve. They actually recognize that there's at least six shades of gray in terms of where people fall in terms of what they believe about climate change. So he went into those six things and then he actually went into one of the subgroups actually has six more. So he was making the point that as you actually gain knowledge about this, say you're someone that looks at how do we influence people's perceptions of climate change or get policies to be more well supported or, you know, change people's minds in a actual. positive way that aligns more with the science. He's like, you have to realize that it's not just like, I believe in climate change, or I don't. He's like, it's six subgroups and then another subgroup divides six more times. He's like, that's, that's what the Dunning Kruger curve shows you. As you become an expert, you realize this is, this is many, many shades of gray. It's 50 shades of gray to use it.

Chris: 12:22

I don't know. I don't know about that reference, but we'll, we'll, we'll let that one slide. But there was, it reminds me, one of my professors and supervisors in graduate school, who's one of the smartest people I know and have been lucky to be around, gave a talk. And it was titled the more I learned, the less I know. And I think that's just the perfect encapsulation of like the Dunning Kruger on the expertise side of things. It's like, you start to recognize what you're talking about. Now, I do want to have a little bit of fun with this because this led into some conversations this week and some discovery went

Matt: 12:54

to send down some real rabbit

Chris: 12:56

holes. So like I said, we're going to have some fun with this. So nowadays, one of, one of the things that really bothers both of us, I think we can agree on. Is the amount of Dunning Kruger effect that we see on a daily basis, particularly on social media platforms.

Matt: 13:13

I think we notice it more in like the fields we're in, right. You know, like we, I think our Instagram algorithm seems to really. Throw people at us that are in the fields or the topics we're interested in. So those are the things we're seeing the most. We're just commercials

Chris: 13:27

that we've seen. We've been watching some of the Australian open and, and some things this week and some of the commercials I've been like looking up, what is this? And we, so anyway, we'll, we'll get into some of, do you want to start off with some of your favorites?

Matt: 13:41

You want me to say this one? So he gets mad at me. All right. So the one, the one, there were two probably that we were having the most fun with. So one there's this guy, there's this. Soccer influencer guy that shows up on my Instagram ads and reels like constantly, I've blocked one of his, I don't know. I thought I blocked the profile like months ago, but it's like showing up again. So I don't know if there's more than one of them, but this guy, I think his handles like entangled footballer. And his whole thing is that the reason that players suck, if they're in real teams from young age, they, they lift weights and they don't learn how to use their fascia. So, so that's like his whole premise is like fascia is how you get good. And the only way to do that is to not get strong. And that's why all the people, and he goes into this whole thing about the, the South, I'm not even going to say what he says, but the South American players are better because they essentially don't weight train. And then, so that was like what you see on his profile, but then you click into his website and, and Chris, do you want to say some of the things he's an expert at?

Chris: 14:46

So this Entangled Footballer website, because we just did some, some digging into it was because it was fun and we enjoy doing this kind of thing. So some of the things that you'll learn if you sign up for this guy's program. Okay.

Matt: 15:00

Before you go into these, I just. It's just crazy to me, in the social media era, basically, you can sell yourself, however you want, with whatever titles you want, with literally no accreditations, no degree, it's crazy, I don't even know, this guy said he had an epiphany, playing college soccer, like I don't even know what his undergrad

Chris: 15:24

degree is, I think this is part of,

Matt: 15:26

well he's living in his parents basement, which he says in the video, right, he

Chris: 15:29

literally says in the video, like, Yeah. So in case you guys want to become a pro soccer player, here, here's your path. So if you join this guy's program, the first thing you will learn is spiral training. Okay. If you don't know what that is, because I don't know what that is. Learn the only way, the only way to rewire your athleticism and become a glute and ab dominant animal on the pitch.

Matt: 15:53

The main way to mount stupid in this and think again is to use the words only or never.

Chris: 15:59

The next thing you will learn is myofascial release. Fascia needs to glide smoothly and it can't do that with fascial adhesions. Learn the correct ways to do that. Now our father is a orthopedic surgeon and has spoken. About the lack of,

Matt: 16:19

The lack of evidence that's something you can create or get rid of. So anyway, we'll just keep moving on. Yep, so

Chris: 16:26

then the next one you'll learn is lymphatic flow training. I have never heard of this either. The average footballer has become physically fragile and frail. We show you how to upgrade your ability to heal and be resilient day in and day out.

Matt: 16:40

I love the connection there between it's, they're, they're not fragile cause they don't strength, they're fragile because of their lymphatic system.

Chris: 16:48

Yeah. So apparently the average footballer is frail. That's didn't know that. Next one, spiral driven biomechanics. Another term as an exercise science degree and a certified strength coach I have never heard of. Most athletes have been screwed up by mainstream gym training.

Matt: 17:02

Cause you're a mainstream gym coach. That's right.

Chris: 17:05

God forbid. I'm terrible. Core work. So, so, have been, I want to read this clearly. Most athletes have been screwed up by mainstream gym training, core work, and technique trainers. Learn how to get back your effortless athleticism you

Matt: 17:20

had as a kid. The best part about that one though is the first one says become an abdominate. Athlete animal on the pitch right, but your

Chris: 17:27

core apparently it's very confusing. Yeah, so, okay next one I'm sorry, I'm having so much fun with this muscle Pandiculations. Oh, this was

Matt: 17:39

the one this was the one I he really like all the other ones well the spiral thing I've never heard of but this I'm not even sure this is like a thing like I follow a lot of the The supplement, the wellness people, I have never even heard of this word.

Chris: 17:54

So he describes it as footballers are aging too fast and recovering horribly. It's because you don't know how to let go of muscle trauma. We show you how. Okay.

Matt: 18:05

He must have read the body keeps the score and really extrapolated that out.

Chris: 18:09

So at least, at least all of those so far are in some type of physical

Matt: 18:14

category. And I like, which we don't even know though, if his background. We

Chris: 18:18

don't know if he has any training, education or certifications in but regardless, okay, you say those things, at least you're in one realm, but it gets better now, real food nourishment. Okay. So he's basically a nutritionist. 99 percent of the food out there is inflammatory, toxic, or just plain terrible. Learn what in all caps, real food is. Okay. So you'll learn how to get rid of 99 percent

Matt: 18:44

of food. It seems like the battery could just fire all of you guys. Yeah. They could fire the whole staff.

Chris: 18:49

That's right. Just hire this guy. Then you'll be, you can get holistic recovery. Holistic is one of those buzzwords. It drives me nuts. That's a side thing. Anyway, modern, his description, modern methods of recovery is setting up footballers for more pain and suffering in the long run, apparently we're getting worse as we learn more about the body. Real recovery happens in nature. It makes you feel younger, not slower. Okay.

Matt: 19:14

Throw away the Norman tech boots and head to the forest.

Chris: 19:19

Then we get mental transformation. This one, this is definitely some red flags here. Depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues are at an all time high in the sports world. Fix it now with our methods before it's too late. That, that's where we start to get into. Okay, we're saying, he's saying you can fix your depression and anxiety. Even I, I am very conscious of saying with people, if you are clinically depressed or clinically anxious, I do not work with you and I have training.

Matt: 19:46

But have you tried releasing their lymph system during these sessions?

Chris: 19:50

So he's, he's your psychologist as well. Not just mental coach, but psychologist. Natural hydration. All footballers are dehydrated. All? I know we're spending a lot of time on this, but this is just so, so good. All footballers are dehydrated, dilapidated, and dried out. Learn how drinking water is not the key to true hydration. Wow.

Matt: 20:17

I wonder if he has like a supplement that he's, I wonder, like, part of me just wants to sign up just to see, like, That's

Chris: 20:24

the worst one I've heard. What you get. Wow. You get Throw in

Matt: 20:27

all the science, any research study that's ever been done on hydration. He definitely doesn't believe the article I just put out where I said that you don't need the hydration supplement So

Chris: 20:37

you can also get maximal intent training This is this is where it starts to become I'm not even gonna read this because it's pretty There's just some stereotypes that I don't want to put on our podcast So you can read that if you want to go on this website And yeah, so, oh, and then he, the last couple, finance your football. This is, I mean, his descriptions are incredible. There's no glory in being a broke, struggling footballer. Nowadays you can learn life changing sales skills online and remotely that are not taught in university. And can fund your football dreams at the same time. So he'll teach you how to make money. And then the last one, no, two more player representation after you've raised your talent, become an athletic freak of nature in quotes and taken back control of your mind. Now you're ready for a real football club. We'll sign you to club entangled and get you trials to fit your ambitions. And the last one, in case he wasn't an expert on enough, he's apparently a marketing expert as well. He will do personal branding for you. We live in an attention economy. Instagram is your digital resume. You are falling behind if your personal brand is sloppy, lazy, or non existent.

Matt: 21:48

How many followers does that guy have?

Chris: 21:49

I don't know, but here's what I do know this entire time I've been on this website. I'm getting these tabs pop up that so and so from Canada has purchased the entangled footballer and has joined the tribe. Which I find hard to believe. Has to be

Matt: 22:04

on a loop, right? Has to be on a loop.

Chris: 22:07

So, okay, we spent some time on that, but

Matt: 22:09

the larger, I mean, we, our last couple of episodes have been too serious anyway. So that was

Chris: 22:14

the larger. Picture of this is like, that's just an example of some of the things that to, to what you were saying is like, people just say anything now and with, and you can be anyone who that says anything. And it's, it's like, I don't know what to do with this. And we were kind of having some

Matt: 22:33

discussion about it. Yeah. I mean, I think the hard part is as you come down from Mount stupid, you start to, it's, it's like you start to be able to interpret some of the information more accurately, but then you're looking at these. These people are selling certain things and it's almost like they're taking advantage of the people who haven't been taught how to interpret information. You know, like I feel like I'm just, there's only one type of person that's purchasing now. And that's someone that really wants to be a pro soccer player and has no idea what they're

Chris: 23:11

doing. And I think that's the frustrating part is we're pretty well educated in. You know, certain areas and it's, it's actually interesting. We, we spent a class in grad school trying to spot what my teacher called shysters, which I, which I really appreciated. Basically trying to figure out like, what can you look at? What can you trust now? I think that's a really hard discussion. And I was talking about this with my, with my dad a few months ago about kind of this like transformation of. Expertise, how expertise used to be really the amount of knowledge you had and, and people would go to you for information, but now it's completely shifted because the information is all out there. There's actually too much info. And so expertise has shifted into this, like ability to sift through all the noise and tell people like, listen to this, ignore this, you know, this is most useful. And so I think there's really been a shift in, what that looks like for a hundred

Matt: 24:13

percent. I mean it's in this is what we talked about another topic of conversation That's come up a lot is how do you what is school even useful for anymore? It's got to be school has to become learning how to sift through information evidence People who claim to have expertise like you have to learn how to do those things now because all Instagram is is basically millions of people claiming that they have expertise on things either because Some of them have expertise in other areas and feel entitled to expertise in other areas that they're not experts in, or they had an experience. So they think experience equals expertise. I think that's a huge part of Dunning Kruger. Experience equals expertise. And that leads you straight up the hill to Mount

Chris: 24:59

Stupid. Yeah, I see that a lot in my field. I think people who are former athletes will become, you know, mindset coaches and things like that. And it's not that they don't have any good information to give and that their experience isn't valuable. It's just that like, like for my role, it's just, it's a fundamentally different job. Like I'm not, I always tell people like my main role is not giving information. It's, it's like listening to someone. There's a great analogy. That I learned from in, in graduate school, one of my professors shared this and it's stuck with me for years is like, if you went to a, if your car broke down and you called in like a car mechanic to come fix it. And he came out there and he just did, he just kind of looked around your car and like did a bunch of tests, looked at this, looked at this, looked at this, but didn't do anything. And then he took out his hammer and like hit it one time on a certain spot. And he's like, all right, it's fixed. There's, you know, that'll be 200 bucks. You'd be like. Wait, 200 for you swinging your hammer, like hitting your hammer one time, but it's like, it's not the amount of work that it took. It's that he diagnosed the correct issue. He could have gone and like hit a million different things and act like he was working harder, but the expertise came in knowing where to hit, right? And I think that's all of the content that's out there now. I mean, I can imagine people feel overwhelmed by it. I know I do sometimes. And

Matt: 26:30

I, well, that's like that, this hilarious meme. I'm just going to read it. This was a meme that I sent them last night going into this, this idea of like, there's just so much stuff now. And people are telling you to be healthy. Even Chris was saying this. He's like, people say to be healthy, you have to do this. And this, you have to exercise a million minutes a week and also eat no processed food and also sleep 20 hours a day and also take these supplements. And it's just, I saw this meme. It was from a Huberman page, which is a different story that we won't get into today, but he says, this meme says it's, it's like one of those funny, just like very basic cartoon meme where there's a person standing in the corner of a party. Holding a drink and the rest of people are having fun. And it says, no one here knows how to pop properly optimize their brain and body. I can't believe I'm wasting one of my 20 percent allowed nights of poor sleep for this. Do they know that alcohol increases stress and doesn't actually relax you? I shouldn't be drinking this yerba mate after 2pm. I have to double inhale through my nose, long exhale through mouth, fiercely darting my eyes left and right 20 times to calm down. I should go to the bathroom and take a 3 minute cold plunge. I have to get up and look at the sun in like five hours. I'm afraid this party is going to raise my baseline dopamine levels. I wish I was home doing NS DR. Yeah. So

Chris: 27:55

it's good. I mean,

Matt: 27:57

Isn't that, that just caps. I mean, that's just captured, but that's exactly, I'm telling you if you're, if you're like, yes, I agree with that. Go read my article. My whole article is like. Sure. If you want to take a supplement, go for it. It may help you 0. 1%, but just do these four basic things. And that gets you 95 percent of the way there. I feel like we, there's so much information on that, like 1%. And when really just doing these really basic not sexy things gets you 95% of the way there. Right. And it's, it just, it's overwhelming because there's so much information about the 1%.

Chris: 28:34

Yeah. We've been having some conversations about this, this week at some of our dinners of like, you know, and this was kind of my argument'cause you, you guys my dad and, and you were talking about. Some of the things that are best for longevity and that you tell your patients and in that, and I start, I was kind of listening in on the conversation and I chimed in of like, I get frustrated. It's kind of like a non medical person. Like I, I know some of the stuff based on, you know, being around you guys, but I'm not trained in medicine. And I'm like, if I were to listen to all of these people, what they say is so important. I would never just live a life. It would be like, when I wake up, I have to go get sunlight in my eyes, and then I gotta take this supplement in the morning. You have to have your whole fridge full of supplements. Yeah, and I can't eat this, and I gotta make sure I eat this, and then I, you know, it's just like, if you could go throughout the entire day, and I'd be like, you'd be like a robot. Right? You would never actually just enjoy

Matt: 29:33

your life. Well, it's funny, cause like, think about the idea of most of happiness is just living in the present, and not thinking about happiness. Right. It's like, If you have all of these things that you have to do, it's hard to be present because you're always thinking ahead to the next thing you have to

Chris: 29:47

do. And, and this, and I know this is kind of a specific world. So some of you guys listening, this may not be,

Matt: 29:53

some people are like, this is off the

Chris: 29:55

rails today. Well, well, I mean, I think For yeah, for those of you not in the medicine or health space or kind of like mental health space, maybe you're not as familiar with some of this, but one of the things that I've noticed and I brought up to you this week was I feel like for a lot of people, health and longevity have almost become an idol. For people where it's like, I'm not saying that taking care of your health isn't important. I'm not saying that obviously everyone wants to have in their later years, you know, good longevity, but for some of these people, it's, you know, and some of these things that we've seen with like a vitamin C shower on, you know, as another example of some of the things that we've seen this week that I'm like, at some point, like, what, what are we doing? You know, like kind of to your point, I love how you brought it up. Am I living in the present moment and being like, okay, let me enjoy this moment, this day. And, you know, I can't control everything. Whereas I almost feel like so, a lot of people in this space. Have have put health their health and their longevity on this so high on this mantle It's like we're missing life because we're just trying to live forever doing all these things I don't know. That's that's maybe more of a personal soapbox But that was one of my thoughts. Yeah, Peter

Matt: 31:24

T actually talks about that So one of the books I read this week was his outlive book, which is basically his longevity manifesto But I actually do You know, his approach certainly can get in the weeds and whether or not I agree with all this stuff, whatever, but I think he does try to boil down the basic principles to pretty manageable stuff. And he does in the book talk about emotional health in a, a pretty cool way from his personal story of how he was so angry and just what, and his psychologist asked him, why do you want to live so long if you're not even happy? And I saw that was such a, a good question. Like if you're not living in the present, not enjoying what you're doing and just focused on like all of the next things you need to do, why do you want to keep doing that for 70 more years? Right. It's like the, what's the purpose of living? You know, I always tell people it's health span. Like you want to be able to do the things that matter to you for as long as possible, but if just doing those things as long as possible starts to become so entangled with all these other things. Then at some point it probably becomes not worth it to live an extra three years, right? So that's one. The other thing I was gonna shout out, maybe they'll sponsor us. There's a place in Male Pleasant that does vitamin c showers. Now at first I was a little confused. What exactly that meant? Did you drink the water with vitamin C in it? But no, it's literally a shower with somehow the vitamin C is in the water and it gets on your skin. And you do that after the infrared sauna. And maybe, I think you do the cold plunge first. I'm not sure. And, and it sounds like I'm making this up, but this is a real thing. This is, this is, this is the world we are in if you're into health and wellness. And it's tough. It's tough. So that's why, it was funny, my article came out on why I think supplements are overrated for the most part, and then literally the next day, Alex Hutchinson in Outside Magazine, like their online forum, Yeah, Alex Hutchinson wrote Endure. he writes this column for Outside Magazine basically every couple of weeks. And he, he basically wrote the same thing about supplements and performance. He's like, even if you get a 0. 2 percent performance boost, is it like, is it worth the money? Is it worth the time? Is it worth thinking about all the time? He's like, if there were things that were actually making the same difference to something like a carbon plated super shoe, then everyone would be doing it. Like they do carbon plated super shoes. He's like, that should be pretty good evidence that most of these things are not worth the hype. And they don't have the evidence to even come close to supporting the hype. Most of them. So it was it was funny to see those two articles, like back to back days kind of saying the same thing. And so we had talked about that on our trip as well. And I

Chris: 34:16

know we've touched on some of this, some of our principles before, and this is where I agree with you know, some of the stuff that Steve Magnus and Brad Stolberg put out there, and I think they do a great job of kind of like talking about. Sifting through this noise and it's, you know, there's always going to be a latest and greatest invention or fad or you know, whatever it is. And to, to be able to like, really take the time and be like, all right. It's in some of, some of the things do end up becoming useful. Right. So I don't want to say like, none of them are, I mean, there are innovations that help, but so much of it is, I feel like. Just people trying to make money off of like I know that sounds kind of shallow But I think it is like you've I don't know. Maybe a vitamin C shower ends up being helpful I have no idea as of now It's like it feels like someone was like what can we do that? We can sell that no one else is doing like the top

Matt: 35:15

five buzz sounds. Yeah, that sounds put in one building Well, I think this is the way that I look at it. Honestly is Again, going back to the 95 percent thing, it's not going to change the most important 95 percent or even 98%. I, if, if you have the money and it makes you happy or something you enjoy, then like, by all means do it. But don't think that thing is like going to be changing your life. You know, it's like, if you like to get in a cold plunge, that's fine. Like, it's, you're not hurting anyone by getting in a cold plunge, but don't think that's like the elixir of life. Don't think getting in a sauna every day. I mean, there's actually way better research for sauna than pretty much anything else we've talked about so far, but like, don't think that's like the most important thing you do for your health, right? It's like. I think white noise is the right word. It's just so much white noise. It's like trying to sift through all of that. And

Chris: 36:09

to, to give you a little bit of credit on this, I think to, to show that we do try to live out what we talk about you know, Matthew this week, we were talking about some of these things and then literally a couple of minutes later, he's like, I'm going to buy a barrel sauna. And I was like, do you not just hear the conversation? He said. But you, you did preface, you did talk about in like, I'm just doing this for fun, right? Like, you know, there's a couple of maybe research studies that you've seen that are like to have some benefits in a sauna for, you know, long distance runners. But you're also acknowledging like, this isn't going to be the thing that's going to like, like you said, change my life. It's more

Matt: 36:45

of an experiment. It's just cool to have a barrel sauna in your backyard. It,

Chris: 36:48

I mean, which I think is, that is fine, right? Like what you said, if you want to do some of this stuff, because you think it's fun, it's fun to experiment with things. Neither of us have a problem with that. I think it's when it gets into the over promise under deliver category, that is so common now that, that we all see to me, no matter what field you're in I feel like it's pretty, pretty common now. So, yeah.

Matt: 37:12

Switching gears one more little fun segment. Can you read off some, so the other company. That we spent some time going down a rabbit hole was a thesis supplements which had an ad during the Australian Open, I think and They they really have every type of supplement, which again, you know, if if you like taking supplements, that's fine Probably not the hill that I personally would die on but we were just really enjoying So once you buy the supplements, they then have this like secondary Program that you can subscribe to or I don't know exactly the system but just read some of the names of the The types of employees they have or the titles they've given them. It's, this is

Chris: 37:52

great. Right. So we had, yeah, like I said, I saw an ad for it and it was one of those things where I was like, Okay. What is this? Right? Like it was one of those ads that told you nothing about, it was like, this will help your cognitive performance. And I was like, okay, what is it? Why is it? So of course I look it up and basically it's just a lot of kind of like different things you might. Find in like herbs

Matt: 38:19

and I got lion's mane on there. So, you know, it's good. Yeah. I

Chris: 38:21

mean, some, some of the stuff I was kind of asking you guys, like, what is this? And some of them are like fine, you know, they're just, but so some of the ingredients to this company. Talks about that. They're basically selling or you know, have names like ginkgo biloba alpha gpc theobromine L phenylalena, you know, it's like so so some of them I heard of but a lot of them I haven't and if I didn't have two doctors sitting right next to me, I'd be like like what is this? I don't even know and they do have a little description on there on their website about like what it is But the part that I really enjoyed Was when you sign up for their supplements you get one on one coaching So, of course, I wanted to figure out who these coaches are anytime you hear coaching. I just my Ears perk up so you can get one on one coaching from and I won't say the names But just the the titles that these guys came up with you can one of them is an integrative nutrition coach

Matt: 39:29

If integrative, that's another, that's holistic, integrative, functional, those are really, those are good

Chris: 39:35

words. The next one is a certified functional

Matt: 39:38

nutrition counselor. Oh, there we go, I didn't even know you were about to say that.

Chris: 39:42

Another one is in natropathy. I was unfamiliar with what that was. Then the next guy is a certified nutrition coach. Again, we don't know what their degrees are. We don't know what this certification

Matt: 39:55

is. So they don't, yeah, they don't have the letters behind their name. No, I'm trying to click. Yeah. And that's one of the things your, your friend told us, right. Is dietician versus nutritionist, right? Correct.

Chris: 40:05

So a dietician is legit. A nutrition, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist. I I'm pretty sure from the conversation I had with her is that. I technically could probably call myself a nutritionist, even though I have absolutely no training whatsoever in nutrition. Or it's like

Matt: 40:20

personal training where you can go get the right, the 30 minute online certificate. Exactly. And be a personal trainer. So nutritionist, which I've done,

Chris: 40:28

Or you could get one on coaching from this certified holistic health coach. Again a

Matt: 40:33

certified They really have all the work. They have integrative, functional, and holistic.

Chris: 40:39

Yeah, they have it all. These are all the good buzzwords. We have a certified meditation coach.

Matt: 40:45

On the supplement website? On the supplement website.

Chris: 40:48

Meditation coach. Another naturopathy behavioral neuropharmacology.

Matt: 40:56

Okay, that person. I really hope that person has some kind of degree that qualifies. I mean, that's like, I

Chris: 41:03

can't, it won't let me like, I don't know. I really

Matt: 41:06

hope that, you know, maybe not a farm D necessarily, but something like to say that title, if you don't have some kind of training, that seems

Chris: 41:16

borderline. It doesn't tell me their degrees, but it does tell me their blend that they use on the supplement. So again, just another example of like, What are we doing? I don't know. Maybe this stuff's

Matt: 41:30

helpful. It's just like so much, like you have limited time and limited money. And it's, it's like, they try to convince you that like 25%, 30 percent of your health budget should be going to these things. And then people are like, Oh, I don't have enough money to go like do something that's actually beneficial or fun or relax. Like I just feel bad. Like there's limited resources that people have. And these things are not cheap.

Chris: 41:57

Yeah. I didn't get a price because there is no price. I'm sure you have to get a call or I don't know what the heck do you do, but the larger point is it's just, it's a lot it's kind of fun to make fun of, but it is so misleading for people that. And I feel bad because I think a lot of people don't have the, the knowledge in the field that, you know, like for, especially for you, like this stuff. And I'm lucky to have you guys to be like, all right, is this stuff legit? Like what?

Matt: 42:30

Well, it's also hard too. Cause like you always say, our brain is lazy. So people are always looking for the quickest path to where they want to go. So they're looking for things that are gonna help them think better, lose weight, be healthier. And if someone tells them that they can get this, that through a supplement there, their animal brain is not necessarily going to stop at a ton of checkpoints. If there haven't refined that, that thought process to have checkpoints. And I think that's how this works for a lot of people, unfortunately.

43:03

Hope you guys enjoyed. Part one of this episode. And we look forward to continuing this discussion Next week with. A. Discussion about Michael new book, the first rule of mastery. And we'll talk about. The fear of other people's opinions. And dive into some of the other discussions we had on this ski trip, as well as some of the other books we had been reading. We hope you enjoy. Part one of this discussion may look forward. For you joining us for part two. Hope you guys have a good week. See you soon. Bye.