What We Have Been Learning Lately Pt.2: Why Punt Returns are Still a Bad Idea, Avoiding the Fear of Other People, and Constraint Based Learning

In this episode we dive into some more things that have been interesting us lately. We return to why punt returns still are a net loss, why comfort may actually be hindering your happiness, and why adults struggle to teach skills to children. We also dive into how to fight the fear of other people to step out of your comfort zone and enable yourself to continue to grow.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the Backseat Driver Podcast, where we attempt to look differently at the worlds of performance, psychology, and sport. My name is Chris DeMarco, and by trade, I am a middle performance consultant. My co host, Matthew, is a doctor, avid runner, and someone who's not afraid to stir the pot, who also happens to be my brother.

Chris: 0:28

We just had a stare down to see who's gonna be starting off Starting off today's podcast, but welcome guys to today's episode we are going to first do a little section on where we were right and Specifically talking about football. Obviously, we're gonna toot our own horn a little bit me specifically and then and then after that We will get into Part two of our discussion on some of the interesting things that we've been learning lately and want to share. Cause I think the concepts are, are just fun to talk about, uh, to think about and, and also to implement into, uh, our own lives as well as maybe some of y'all. Um, so without further ado, I think it would be remiss to not address the one that most watched. Television event in U. S. history, I believe is what it ended up being. The Super Bowl 58. Whatever it was. Um, it was funny because we want to actually circle back to one of the episodes we did over, what was it? Yeah, the Christmas one. Yeah, the Christmas one. So, if you guys are dedicated fans and have listened to every episode, we did a Christmas special. And it went into, um, some of our pet peeves. And one of mine was the punt return. And, uh, lo and behold, one of the biggest plays of one of the biggest games comes down to a punt hitting the guy in the foot. We're hitting one of the gunners in the foot, ricocheting, uh, punt returner can't pick it up. Uh, former Clemson player, no surprise, can't pick it up.

Matt: 2:14

Um. They have had some history of punt return troubles in big games.

Chris: 2:19

And absolutely a game changing, momentum changing play. Uh, that, when you go back and watch that game, I think No doubt is like one of probably the top three key plays in

Matt: 2:33

the game. Yeah, it's like they didn't lose the game necessarily from that play because they obviously got to overtime. But it was hard to see Kansas City playing well enough on offense to score enough points to win the game without that kind of error being made essentially. In my opinion, that's, that's how I felt. And then that momentum swing seemed to energize the offense and give them the the boost they needed.

Chris: 3:00

It was funny cause Matthew literally like, as soon as that play happens, texts me he's like, dude, we need to go back and highlight, um,

Matt: 3:08

what you said. Well it wasn't even that, it was remember because in both college football semifinals, there were muffed punts at key points. Like I think multiple Michigan had a couple, so basically 75 percent or more of the most important football games this year, there were key muffed or like fumbles on punts, which I think is pretty indicative that your, your, uh, theory of how to return punts may actually be. A net gain for, for your team. If you just don't put anyone back there, except maybe two returners, right?

Chris: 3:47

Like you just have no gunner. Cause, cause people might be like, oh, well hit the, you know, guy blocking downfield. Like that's not his fault. But in, if I were coaching the team, for example, there wouldn't be that guy there because we wouldn't be returning the punt. We would just be like fair catch before

Matt: 4:01

the point. I was thinking about this too, to like even limit, because part of why people Muffet too is when they have to go long distances or they're trying to catch over the shoulder. So even if you had two guys back, you know, you could do one deeper staggered or you could do each have half of a field, no gunners, that way you still have the, you know, prevent the fake, but then you don't have to worry about anyone getting in your

Chris: 4:21

way, really. Yeah, and then there's, there's also like a psychological principle here at work that I probably haven't touched on of like why this, why something like this is so difficult, right? And this is obviously just one example, but like I do a, um, Exercise with teams sometimes where I'll give them like, and I'll try to make it fun. Like I'll give them like what's called a concentration grid that just has a bunch of random numbers and you have to like find one and find two, then find three. And then I'll also, like, play a song in the background, and sometimes I'll try to, like, do something stupid and play, like, a Taylor Swift song. And I'll be like, you have to count the amount of times she says, you know, the word, like, ever or love or whatever in this song. And basically what I'm just trying to show is how difficult it is for your mind to do two things at once. And when you're punt returning, you are trying to locate a football that is moving through the air. Which is hard enough. I mean, think about that's like what an outfielder in baseball does and that's all they have to think about and you're trying to figure out Cannot am I supposed to return this? What does it look like you have to scan? People trying to literally murder you coming down the field where your blockers are like there's so much to process And so it's really not surprising to me why that happens so much from a mental standpoint Whereas like if we just said here's your one task catch the ball You don't even have to look at where everyone else is. They're gonna catch it a much higher percentage of the time

Matt: 5:51

Yeah. And you're probably choosing different people to return as well, right? Cause you're not exactly, they're picking the most dynamic person. Who's not always going to be the best. You know, most, uh, sure handed player, at least the returning or catching punts. The other thing that I thought was funny, I don't know. I can't remember if he texted me this before that happened or after, but they'd flashed this stat up there of like zero out of 524 punts or something I've ever been returned for a touchdown in the super bowl. Some ridiculous Jim Nance

Chris: 6:20

literally goes like, maybe right after we texted or something and Jim Nance. Unprompted goes, uh, yeah, so o for, I think it was like 472 punts have been returned for a touchdown in Super Bowl history. And I'm like, why are we returning punts? Like we, we There was also another one muffed in that game that they recovered. Yeah, I think it was the 49. Maybe it's the chiefs. I don't even remember. But there was two muffed and one turnover from punts and yet no one has ever taken one back and we're still doing it. It's just absolutely mind

Matt: 6:53

boggling to me. Yeah, I mean if you take those playoff, college football playoff games plus the Super Bowl, there was maybe one decent punt return out of all those games and there were at least I think four or five muffed punts. If you were to look at win probability, I think it would be extremely strongly skewed towards negative effect on your win probability from trying to return punts.

Chris: 7:16

I would be betting a lot of money on that for

Matt: 7:18

sure. So, we, uh, we're going to stand strong with this theory and, uh, we're going to keep plugging it until someone does it. Yeah, maybe

Chris: 7:26

I'll, maybe I'll, uh, at one of my guys on Twitter that I follow, a guy named Ben Baldwin. He's like a analytics guy. Maybe I'll ask him the questions, see if he'll look into it. Yeah,

Matt: 7:34

I, I think that'd be. That that seems like the kind of question he would be

Chris: 7:38

interested. Yeah, I agree. Well cool. So after we just wanted to express how smart we are

Matt: 7:47

I was thinking about that Christmas episode a couple weeks ago, and we were pretty close on the Heisman You know, we we did that episode before championship Sunday, and we still got pretty close You know, we thought Bo Nix was probably the front runner at that point, but ended up being second. Yeah, he's second or third. So we weren't too far off on that one. Um, there's still people that don't know how to drive in traffic circles. So that one, that one's still true for sure. Next topic.

Chris: 8:19

Yeah. So kind of a continuation of like we said, part one. So one of the books that I've been, that I read recently, and also one of my kind of just favorite people to listen to in general for, for my field, it's a guy named Dr. Michael Gervais. And I was actually really fortunate. He, um. Is, how do I describe this relationship? He, so my supervisor in graduate school, who's like a guy named Dr. Mark Aoyagi, um, is, it's kind of a hard last name to say, but he's friends with Mike Trevator, like one really good friends. And so he actually came in and kind of guest spoke to our class one time. And, um, he's one of the front runners in the field of sports psychology and just does amazing work. And I'm a huge supporter of his. And so he came out with this book called, uh, The First Rule of Mastery is Stop Worrying About What Other People Think About You. And it was kind of funny, and I actually wrote a blog post that I'll post in the future about this, kind of in conjunction with this episode. Um, but I was reading it for Clients, right? I was like thinking about because it's something I definitely see with people Worrying about what their coach thinks worrying about what their parents think worrying about, you know teammates all this stuff and how restrictive it is of Getting, you know kind of fulfilling our potential is the argument he makes but as I was reading it I was like man This is really hitting home with me and in the sense of like when I really look at how many things Like am I not doing in my life that I want to be doing simply because I don't want to be like judged or critiqued or criticized Because it's comfortable and I know what I'm good at and so I'm not gonna like put myself out there and what one of the areas that Really spoke to me and it's a change. I'm definitely be making here very soon and I'm already working on it is social media You know, I think social media is a place where you put yourself out there a little bit, especially when kind of the social media we're thinking about where you're sharing ideas and topics and maybe even just statements in general is like, you're putting yourself out there to be critiqued. Um, but also simultaneously really the goal and intention of it would be to like share ideas. There's lots of things I get from the people on Twitter. I follow that are great ideas and I'm glad they share them and are willing to. Um, and if they say something that I don't agree with, I'm not like Oh my gosh, like what an idiot I, you know, so just thinking about those things, and that was kind of one application in, in my life and I'm sure kind of everyone has these different areas, um, to look at. And so I think it's a really interesting, you know, question of like where, what areas of your life are you kind of not following or expressing because you're scared of what people might say or think of you.

Matt: 11:22

And you, you talked about that on our trip and then. It was like perfect timing because when we got home from the trip, Rich Roll released his most recent episode with Michael Gervais. And I think he's been on the show multiple times. But it was, it was super good because I haven't heard a lot of his stuff. So I loved listening to the episode and hearing some of his things. One thing that he talked about in the episode that stuck with me actually, and I've been doing since I listened, is he does this thing basically every time he leaves the room with someone that he was Conversing with and he calls it basically acknowledging like the fragility of relationships and fragility of life So when he leaves an interaction, he basically takes a second to take a deep breath Acknowledged like the good in that interaction and then he like moves on to the next thing But he basically takes a second to acknowledge like the good In whatever just happened with that person whoever he's talking to and I thought that was super cool I've never really had someone heard someone talk about that So I've been doing that with like patients and you know, when I leave the house in the morning and stuff like that. So that's been something that I learned from him on that on that podcast. I really liked. The other thing that, uh, he talks a lot about, um, and he was talking about his book on there and I thought it was just really cool to hear firsthand cause he really was a trailblazer in the sports psychology world for sure. Bring it to the forefront. I think of people's psyche and he talks about how, when he first started doing sports psychology and was actually prominently known, like who he was working with, he got so much pushback from the sports psychology community. And so, you know, for him, that was one thing where he was initially like listening to certain people and maybe fearful of like how he'd be perceived by the community. He's like, this is so stupid. He's like, these people don't care, you know, that they know who I'm working with. It's not like I'm putting myself out there just to get that fame. He's like, I'm just doing it because that's like the nature of the relationship we're in, or that's the nature of like how I'm coaching them. Um, and I thought that was really, really cool to hear how he just kind of did what he thought was best for him and his clients. And, you know, that did end up getting him in this really prominent place, but how much pushback there was initially in the, in the sports site community. It sounds like when people started actually seeing him and his name and kind of what he was doing and stuff like that.

Chris: 13:57

Yeah. And a couple of cool things in there to highlight one is that like mindful moment, right. Of like just the appreciation or whatever you want to call it. But. But living out that practice of mindfulness, like people think mindfulness is like sitting with your legs crossed and your thumb touching your middle finger and like, it's not like that's what mindfulness is, is being able to just be present with that moment and being able to like appreciate what just happened or what is happening. Um, and so that's living it out, which is, which is great. And then, you know, the. The example, so a couple of things here. One is this idea, the kind of what I've talked about with people even before reading this book is this idea of like the spotlight effect, which if you're not familiar with that is, uh, most, most people probably are at this point. But it's, it's this idea that there's a constant spotlight following you around all the time that like everything you do or say people are noticing, paying attention to, and like they care about it and like almost if you were on stage, you know, like the main actor has a spotlight on it, but the reality of the situation is everyone has their own spotlight on them and it's in their own mind and so people aren't thinking of you as much as you think, because guess what they're thinking about themselves and. So that that really I think has helped a lot of people I've worked with and and sometimes I feel Hypocritical teaching this concept because it's like I obviously I'm working on it myself because we all experience it But some of these really embarrassing moments that we have had You know, like we think it's just this huge deal and you go and ask someone about and they're like, oh, yeah You know, I kind of remember that And it's like they don't spend any time or energy like thinking about your life because they're concerned about their own right there I see

Matt: 15:54

this a lot. Well one I have a really funny example to say after this But I see this a lot with certain personality types You know, there's personality types that are like more in tune with the room around them Like they feel the emotional energy they feel the anxiety people or they feel like people's expectations more and then there's people who I think Worry less about that I feel like the spotlight effect is really prominent in those people that are able to feel like empaths. They're able to feel emotions, feel expectations, feel. Uh, other people's needs, because what they're doing is they're almost putting a spotlight on other people. And so in their head, they go, Oh, other people must be doing that exact same thing to me. But in reality, most people, you know, 80, 90 percent of the people in the room are not doing that. So it's really always, uh, helpful for me when I talk to those people to realize that's why they're struggling with that is because that's what they're doing to other people, but not in a negative way. It's just there. of like, Oh, that person would probably need a drink or that pro that person looks like they need some help with their baby or, you know, they're just, that's just how their personality works. They're just very in tune with people's needs. Um, but I think those are the people I often see that struggling most with anxiety or that fear of like, Oh, this person's going to think this about me or this person's going to think this was silly or whatever, you know, they have that fear that kind of holds them back from doing certain things. So that's been one observation. The, the example of this. And how, uh, I'm very anti spotlight. So recently Luca had to start wearing a helmet because he's riding his scooter so fast. Um, and then he also started to want to ride a two wheeled scooter. So he just turned two, but he wants to ride like a real scooter, a real scooter. And he actually can. So we were like. Okay. Like you'd have to start wearing a helmet. This is like, you're, you could actually get hurt now. So when we started wearing the helmet, the first day, when I, when he got the helmet, we each put a helmet on so he could see like how you wear it and that's cool and whatever, but now when we go outside, he wants me anytime he wears his, his helmet, he wants me to wear my, so I'm like walking down our street wearing a helmet while my two year old is scootering. And that's just one of those things where it's like. I, it doesn't bother me, but I could imagine someone being like, Oh, I'm so, I look so stupid. Everyone's like judging me. It's like no one I've like three people have noticed and they've all thought it was great because it's like, you're encouraging you. Yeah. It's funny. Or you're encouraging your kid to wear a helmet, which is good. So. That's just one of those things that was cracking me up as I was thinking about this. Actually,

Chris: 18:34

it's hilarious.

Matt: 18:36

He goes, help me, help me, help me. Daddy, help me. Well, he doesn't say his name. He just goes, help me.

Chris: 18:43

I mean, that's a great example, though, of like, you feel stupid, right? But no one else thinks. They're like, oh, that kid's, he's with his kid and that's what he

Matt: 18:55

wants. I mean, the crazy thing is most people haven't even noticed, you know, right.

Chris: 18:59

Because they're so in their own world, like that's kind of the thing. Um, you know, I think of, I think back and we could probably share examples and like. Y'all are probably, um, you know, I would challenge you to think of examples of like in your own lives, you know, for me, one of the ones that comes up, like, it's really hard for me sometimes when I come up with a new session, because I have no idea, like, how it's going to be, uh, taken, and so it's a little bit scary sometimes, and so this, this is very prominent, like, I've got to just go with what I think is best here, and go for it, and it might come off, and it might not work, right, and that's okay. So I was given a presentation with the Charleston Battery last year and it was kind of middle of the season. So I'd done a few already, but, um, I was going to show this video and it was a video that was like, I was like, are they going to cringe at this? But it was like, kind of, it was kind of middle of the season. I felt like the team needed to be a little bit motivated. So I was like, going to try to show them like a fun video. And you, um, I know, you know, the one I used to wake up to it's close. It's an Eric Thomas video. And so I was like already kind of battling like whether to show it or not I was like, I'll go I'll just show it and so I go I show it plays for 30 seconds and then just freezes And I'm like, I'm like, all right It was it was kind of it felt even more ridiculous because it was like a hype video, right? so like You lose the hype. You lose, you completely lose, uh, what I was trying to get. And so I'm like, just give me a second, let me look at it. And I just got a new laptop and all of a sudden I'm like trying to figure out all this, like what, what went wrong. And afterwards I realized because I had gotten a new laptop, I hadn't ever connected it to the Wi Fi. Because like my other one was already connected to the Wi And so anyway, I didn't figure that out until afterwards so I like tried to fix it It's been a couple minutes like looking at it's like, you know, screw it. I'm just gonna wing it so so I like go up and Basically, just try to explain what I was trying to convey and completely wing the rest of the the session And I and I you know go sit down afterwards and I just feel like an idiot um but and so I was thinking like You know, all the thoughts going through my mind in that moment is like what is the head coach thinking? What are the players are they, you know, do they completely like lose respect for me like all these things and literally no one cared No one cared, you know, it was like I never got any type of comment about it No one no, I don't think it really ran through anyone's mind and you know after the season got great feedback, you know so it's like You know, I, and I probably did spend too much energy thinking about it. Cause I'm like, that's my job and that's my role. And obviously I don't want to do that very often, but at the end of the day, like that was not playing in people's minds as much as it was mine by a lot. Yeah. We,

Matt: 22:01

we overemphasize all the negatives usually. I feel like that's one of those really strong characteristics of high performers is they have this ability to. Be balanced, like more objectively balanced, I think, and how they view like positives and negatives, you know, they don't get too carried away when they do things well, but they also don't get too carried away when they do things poorly, where they're just like beating themselves up and whatever. They're like, Oh, that's fine. You know, it's, it is what it is. It's, it's very, uh, steady, I think. And you see that with higher performances, they're just kind of able to be a lot more steady, which allows them to be consistent in all areas of life, which allows them to be high performers. Um,

Chris: 22:46

yeah, I mean, when I, when I coached basketball a couple years ago, um, you know, I was working with kind of around high school aged kids and I was working on their dribbling and, um, kind of just doing some, some basic dribbling drills, you know, right hand, but like really, really pound it like down, um, To challenge yourself. And, and what I used to tell them is like, if you're not losing the ball, then you're not pushing hard enough in this drill, you should be losing the ball a couple of times because otherwise you're just doing it within your comfort zone. And that's never going to make you any better. And so I think. You know, and to use that example, like for me showing kind of a motivational video is a little bit outside of my comfort zone. Like I'm very comfortable with like information and like, you know, maybe like a fun game here or there and just like stuff like that. But, um, you know, I personally sometimes cringe during motivational videos. And so I, I, you know, don't want to have that happen. And so, but it was good for me to, to do that. Um, and then it's also good to fail because now it's like. I learned that lesson of, I need to make sure all these systems are go beforehand. Uh, which I already kind of did, but you know, there was like obviously a couple of little things that. So, you know, and I learned from that and now I kind of play it through beforehand. Just make sure everything's working and all that. Um, but you don't learn those things. It's like the dribbling thing. You don't learn it unless you're losing the ball. You don't learn it. Uh, and so it's like, if you're not failing, then you're not growing to a certain extent and, um, that kind of goes into, I know one of the things you just, I don't know if you read, listen to something or have dabbled in the book, but this idea of like the comfort crisis, um,

Matt: 24:39

I'm going to take us on a little tangent before we go too deep into it, because a, I think people would be interested in your thoughts on this. And two, this is just something that I've been. Observing in this neighborhood. So the neighborhood we live in, we live on this like alley and there's a lot of kids on this alley between the ages of two and 16 and pretty much every day you can find at least. Five to 10 of these kids in this one driveway doing some kind of sport, which is cool. It's a very old school style neighborhood, like very few of these kids play video games. So everyone's outside playing sports. It very much reminds me of like our neighborhood growing up, which is awesome, which is part of the reason we wanted to live here. But one thing I've noticed is there is a huge spread, like a huge spectrum of how much kids want to learn and how they want to learn and how they deal with learning. So the example I want to get your feedback on because I was talking to one of the kids and then one of the adults about it is, um, basically a couple of the kids wanted to get better at shooting and they were, they're at that age where they can learn how to start to shoot well, but to do it, they have to shoot pretty close or they're pushing the ball basically. So they're kind of at that age between eight and 12. And, uh, but they approached me and kind of asked like, Oh, what are some things to like, start working on not pushing it? So trying to get backspin, trying to. Figure out what that even feels like it's like I'm not shooting a basketball. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry Yeah, talking about shooting a basketball specifically the idea of like getting back with the right form, right? so getting back spin on the ball and not kind of just pushing it towards the hoop and It was funny because there was another Adult out there. And so the girl initially approached the other adult and they started working on shooting And I felt like probably how Chris used to feel when he watched me teach someone spike ball. Like I, it was just fascinating to see how much I've grown just from like being around Chris in this area because, Um, he was, you know, going through all the like very specific. Like nuances of the mechanics and this and that, and you know, there are probably 10 cues, right? Yeah. And I was like, I was talking to him a little bit during it because she was very like open to learning. So we kind of were experimenting and I was like, I think what Chris would do in this situation is he would probably pick some kind of objective based drill here, like he would pick something that involves her, not her thinking, but trying to just accomplish a task. So what we did is we got a smaller ball and basically just tried to get her to create as much like get it to go as high as possible with as fast a backspin as possible and You know, obviously you have to teach them one. There is one position I learned that is not very natural Which is to kind of have your wrist in a laid back position if you're not if you haven't done a lot of athletic things I've seen this now two or three times with different kids here None of them naturally lay their hand back if they're not shooting correctly. So they, what I mean is like almost like how a waiter would hold a tray, right? Like you have to have your hand in that position to allow it to flick to create backspin. And, uh, it was, it was interesting. These kids actually would hold their, their wrist more upright and hold the ball more in front of them because that allowed them to push it forward with more force. Right. So that was a huge shift for them. So that was one thing of being like, okay, you have to have your wrist at least back a little bit. But other than that, just being like. Think about trying to snap yours as much possible to make the ball basically and just let him play with that. Yeah, and That was the drill I did and I was much more successful and accomplishing that feeling and once she got the feeling She actually started to do it, you know decently well for the first day of trying so it was a fun little experiment Yeah, and

Chris: 28:37

so yeah, I love talking about this stuff. So this is so what you're talking about. It's How to, how to teach a skill specifically a motor skill. And yes, a lot of people screw this up. Um,

Matt: 28:52

I know this is like one of your things I wanted to, yeah.

Chris: 28:56

So it's, it's kind of funny. Cause like there, when you think about the process of shooting a basketball, like you could break it down and make it super complex. I mean, there's a really funny. Um, Tiger wood, like old Tiger woods commercial, where he's like, the golf swing is really simple. He's like, all you got to do is, you know, put your feet shoulder width apart, take the club back and, you know, stay on balance in the follow through. He's like, just like that. And he's like, also remember to make sure your grip is, uh, here. And you take the club back at a 46 degree angle and, uh, making sure you have all the centrifugal force between your shoulders and your hips. And it like, it's, it's a classic. And like, we maybe should even like post a link to it because it's so funny. But it basically goes into like the golf swing could be super simple and it also can be super complicated if you're like looking at the science of it. And so when you're teaching it, I'll say to anyone, I mean, I was going to say, especially to kids, but really anyone is, I think, um, two things. Language is the enemy. Okay. Trying to. Use words to describe feelings is really especially when you're learning is is something I try to avoid at all costs So what you went into a little bit more which I which I love is this idea of like a constraint based learning approach I couldn't

Matt: 30:19

think of the word

Chris: 30:20

so you give someone a constraint Right. So, um, I want you to think about something about tennis is tennis is naturally a constraint based learning, hit it within the realms of these lines and over this net, right. And you have to figure out how to do that. And so what people learn how to do is like, Oh, if I brush up on the ball, then it creates a top spin, which gives me a much higher percentage chance of making it in the. In that, in those constraints, um, basketball is a similar, you have to make it in this hoop that's above you. So you naturally have to create arc and, um, you know, and make it go a certain distance, right? So your brain is really smart. Um. And so giving people that, that natural constraint versus what I see a lot of coaches could do is they know the correct, what the correct technique should look like. And so they try to teach, basically it's, it's trying to go from like the inside out to the outside in, right? The inside out approach is like, think internally, where should my elbow be? Where should my wrist be? Um, you know, what should my, how much should I be bending my knees and things like that? And then that will create the result I want, right? And I see a lot of coaches teach that way. And I personally disagree with that versus kind of the outside in approach of like, let's make the ball do this. I'm going to give you a constraint. I need you to, I need you to make the ball go 15 feet in the air and spin backwards 10 times. If we were to just say that, figure it out and you give them a couple of tries in, at least in my experience, they will figure out how to do it. And their body will get pretty dang close to the correct technique. Um, there may be a few things here and there, like if they're way off, like if they're holding the ball incorrectly, there, there are certain fundamentals that like, yes, a coach may need to step in and like, make sure that it's not like way off. Right. And that's okay. But from a fundamental approach, if they're close, you know, and they're shooting, it's like, all right, now I need to, I need this ball to spin backwards. Whatever it was five times, and it needs to go over this, uh, You know, tree branch or whatever. And then they're going to have to, there's only like one way to do that. And it's, it's get my wrist back and flick it. And so you can teach that skill without, um, actually describing it to them. And the reason that's important. Is because if they know how to do that without actually really knowing how they learned it It's it becomes so much more ingrained. It's so interesting. It's like I couldn't tell you how to how I shoot a basketball I just do it because I did it when I was three years old and forever I can't so I can't tell you how I hit a forehand in tennis But my body absolutely knows, like, it's just, it's so ingrained versus like, if you break it down, I, I feel like it transmits differently. So anyway,

Matt: 33:31

yeah. No, I think that's, that's true. That kind of touches on, uh Your your theory that we won't reveal here. Yeah,

Chris: 33:40

so you're uh, yes Yeah, I mean I have i'm gonna write at some point in the next foreseeable future Hopefully sooner rather than later. I'm gonna write a book and this is gonna be one of the And I have a name for it, um, of, of why this is so important. And then also like, when you learn these skills is so important. Um, obviously the younger, the better.

Matt: 34:08

Yeah. Because I think about for me, there are certain skills and sports I started playing when I was younger. And then there are certain sports and skills I acquired when I was a little bit older, and I would say there's definitely a difference in how I. Proceed like soccer for me is very natural. Like I don't think about what I'm doing really but basketball is very mechanical Because I learned basketball at a later age. Like I really didn't get good shooting. So I was probably in college Mm hmm. My shot was horrendous until I mean till like late in college So that's like a very mechanical skill versus soccer a lot of those skills I learned when I was, you know, four or five six the basics and worked on growing up. So like they're very fluid So yeah, I definitely You Think there's probably something to it. So it's an interesting little little side tangent. It's it's funny

Chris: 35:01

because I'll um when I first started Working with with tennis players One of the things is I took this concept because obviously so much coaching in general It's like that inside out approach like let's get the technique right technique And so I was like, let me try something different and on the serve. I would just put Like a tennis ball down to be like, hit this target that didn't touch anyone. So everyone kind of served a little bit differently from a technique standpoint, different levels, but that was like the, you know, the guy, uh, the head coach at the time was like, this is insane. Like they, we improve their serve by like 30 percent without doing anything other than just like giving them a constraint, uh, for their mind to focus on and, and kind of specifically an external target, external constraint and the whole, and it was kind of, it was kind of cool because it was confirming, you know, some of the theory that I had of like, it doesn't matter what the technique is. If your brain, um, As long as the technique is like solid enough. Right. Your, your body knows how to get the ball to that spot. You just have to, like, make that the, uh, intention. Versus putting my attention on the, you know, movement of my body. And, and so that, that is like a fundamental shift. So if you're, if you're an athlete in this, listening to this, try that, like try to get your attention externally based. So I call it like target based approach. You know, if you're a golfer, if you're a tennis player, if you're, you know, basketball player, like eyes on the front of the rim and just like, let your body. Get it there. It will know how to do that and kind of just let go of all the technical and this is where it's hard And this is why I think that's how you teach is important because if you learned from a technical approach It's hard to like you don't even know how to do it without thinking about the technique because you're so used to like Thinking about that And that's what that's why I think that process of learning those skills is so important and doing it without language and without Technical, you know, getting over technical, um, you know, it's like teaching a kid. I came here the other day and like Luka's rolling around and, and jumping, like no one's telling him how to move his body in that direction. He's just figuring it out. He's, he's learning naturally. So. You know, it's kind of, it's kind of cool. Like our, our brain is, is pretty amazing in that, in that way.

Matt: 37:49

I think that it will be very, uh, interesting to see. I, I, uh, I love watching you sports coaching now, cause it's so like technique based and it's just, it's funny. It's so many cues and I'm like, there's no way this kid can learn like 50 cues. You know, when they're five years

Chris: 38:09

old, yeah. And also one thing at a time. That's the other thing. One thing at a time. Like we talked about at the beginning with the punt return. As soon as you go to two things, three things, you're toast. Your performance is going to drop. Give them one thing to work on. And practice it until they get it and then you can move on to the next thing. Yeah. Um, and it's tough. I mean when you're, like for me, I try to have a little bit of sympathy for people because like I'm trained in this area. Right, right. For sure. And, you know, if it's like some dad teaching, coaching soccer, like, I get it that they're not going to fully understand all of this. No, for

Matt: 38:45

sure. Um. Cool. What did we have left on the list? Let's see if we can pick one more. Maybe, uh,

Chris: 38:52

the, the, the comfort, uh, concept. Yeah. So why don't you, why don't you talk a little bit about that since you've been looking

Matt: 38:57

into this? Yeah. So I have the book. I haven't actually read it yet. It's the comfort crisis by Michael Easter, but I had, he also was on the ritual podcast, funny enough. It was like two people I'd really wanted to listen to were on like within a couple of weeks. So it's perfect. So I got little intros, but, um, comfort crisis is basically a book. About how a lot of the issues, um, you know, from addiction to mental health problems to, you know, really just our dissatisfaction with life stems from the fact that we actually live in a society that has become so comfortable, which is very counterintuitive, right? And obviously, I don't know all the nuances of this shit, but the The basis of his, his whole theory is that, um, and this is from a Harvard research, I believe I should have looked at this, but essentially there was a, a study that looked into people and what we do with our perception of like happiness and our perception of satisfaction based on different factors and what he found is. Uh, is that as our level of comfort increases, where we become dissatisfied, basically shifts along with it. So if you're making a certain amount of money, then you feel comfortable, you know, at X percent of that money. And that basically just increases proportionally. I mean, give me an example. So give me numbers. So like his, his example from the podcast was this, when you are. An American that lives at a pretty high socioeconomic status and you fly in a plane. What do you think? You think TSA is annoying, you think the plane seats are too small, that the bathroom in the plane is annoying, and that the snacks suck. Right. What he did in the book is he then went and spent a month in Antarctica, or the Arctic, and he was like, What do you think I thought when I got back on the plane to fly back home? He's like, I thought that was the greatest invention in the history of the world. He's like, I hadn't had screens in a month, I had to You know, walk half a mile to an outhouse. I had to go get my own water in the negative 20 degrees every day. We had no real stimulation. Um, he's like, it's, it's all about that. Like per se, not perception, but the actual amount of comfort you have completely shifts, like where, where your level of satisfaction starts. And so that was kind of his example. He's like, after that month, he's like flying on the plane was great. He's like, he w he said, I couldn't believe how. Many great choices they had on the back of the, uh, seat movie screen, how they actually gave, had just drinks right there. And so it's all about this like perspective shift, I think. And, and his point in this book though, is that one way we can do that routinely in our life is actually by inducing some discomfort. And this is something that I have actually talked about for a long time with running, because I think, and you look at trail and ultra running and that has really taken off. And I think one of the reasons is. Because people, they used to have that level of discomfort because they didn't have food, water, and shelter. And now it's like, well, we have, most of us have those basic needs met. And so the discomfort we used to get for Jim from just being alive, we now seek in other adventures, basically. And so a lot of hobbies actually are a way of people still trying to find that discomfort that seems to be really important for healthy psyche, healthy perspective. Um, just healthy living, um, and just in general being satisfied, like with, with life. And so obviously I haven't read all the nuances, but, but I think just like, and Steve Magnus talks about this and, um, do hard things as well. But this idea of like, the more you experience discomfort, the more you realize, oh, this is truly uncomfortable. Or this is just a little bit uncomfortable, and this is very actually tolerable. And I think where this applies to people in general is like, like we talked about in earlier episodes, but pain is probably the most prevalent one. It's like, if you experience a really hard workout, where you're like laying on the ground at the end, like, okay, that, that felt really hard. But, And then all the other workouts are kind of on a spectrum from that. And you're like, okay, well, this is what true pain feels like. And then there's kind of a spectrum from that. So when you have like a small pulled muscle, you're like, Oh, that's fine. You know, I can work through this or a little niggle or a little, you know, pulled muscle here and there. Like you can work through all those things and they don't create this huge, like overreaction and. Uh, over kind of dramatization of pain and all these things. And so I think that's kind of where this having doses of discomfort built into your life, however you want to do it, is so important for, especially in like the way that our lives are structured now. So I think that's kind of the gist and, and kind of my interpretation of, of that as well from my perspective.

Chris: 44:04

So one of the, one of the things I'm hearing, and it goes along with Daniel Convin's work of like reference point. Yeah, for sure. Like, like. As humans, we see everything from a reference point, and that's fundamentally really important to understand. Um, I actually firsthand see this a lot. Um, so one of the populations I work with, um, we'll just say doesn't come from hardship necessarily like, you know, kind of affluent, uh, families, things like that. And one of the facilities I work with is top of the top class. Uh, top of the line, and that sounds like an advantage, right? Like having the best facilities, living in Charleston, but what it actually does, I actually think it's a disadvantage from a competitive standpoint, because now anytime that these players go somewhere where the weather is not perfect, and you know, the courts aren't perfect, it feels like a big deal. And you get a bad balance and it's like we never get bad bounces because our courts are perfect, right? It's 30 degrees. We never practice in 30 degree, you know Like we're not used to that. So I mean, it's kind of like the Miami Dolphins this year when they played the Chiefs They go to the playoffs in zero degree weather and they're in a Miami all year. I'm like they don't have a chance Not, I mean, not actually, but like from a, it was definitely a disadvantage. There's no doubt about that. And so, you know, the advice I would give to people, if you are developing a youth athlete or again, any athlete, but specifically, specifically youth, it's give them the crappiest stuff. Seriously, because if they actually start to get good, then you can maybe start to increase that stuff with. Uh, their level, but when people start off with like the perfect circumstances, it's just so hard, like you just become spoiled with like all of these things need to be perfect. Um, and that's, that's a competitive disadvantage because mental toughness is the ability to overcome adversity.

Matt: 46:15

Well, that's like, yeah, that's like when you're playing as a kid and in high school, we practice it this, I don't even know how to describe this field. It was like playing on a field that someone had farmed basically is what it felt like, just like giant, like a tractor had gone over the whole field, you know, just bumps everywhere, huge holes, no grass, firm on one side, mud on the other. And you're like, what in the, but then it was really funny because that's where we practiced. And then the field we played at was like super nice. Like the stadium we played at was super perfect. And so it was just hilarious. You know, it didn't matter though, when we went to these other schools, I didn't really care about soccer and. Barely had like a field to play on wasn't like that bothered us, right, you know, and it was it's just that was one of my favorite examples And and that came from our coaches though They would talk about that because one was Jamaican the other one was from Trinidad and Tobago and that's where they grew up playing So you think they cared about how the field was where we practiced like no, this is an advantage for us They're like I want to take you to Jamaica in the summer Because I want you to see it doesn't matter if we're playing with the size 5 ball or like a orange that's covered in A little bit of tape, like, it's

Chris: 47:35

still a ball. It's, it's one of the things that this is like a personal than just frustration of like being in the area that we're in is like you said, it's like it's, it's crazy because I felt like one of the things that I was being trained in, in my role is like people are in a lot of discomfort. So I'm like a support figure. And sometimes with certain athletes, I, I'm like almost trying to create discomfort for them because I'm like this, you know, like we have become so soft in certain areas that it's like, why are we talking about this as a big deal? Like, this is why, I mean, this is why like the USA struggles in conga calf. Because they are used to American facilities or if they play overseas and better leagues like and then they go play in El Salvador or like, you know, some of those countries in the fields are not to the standard. They're used to the facilities are kind of weird, you know, like the crowds are all, you know, their own, uh, thing. And so. But it's like if you're not used to that or at least have the skills to handle that From a mental standpoint you're going to struggle and I think that's why playing on the road in conca calf You know as just one example Is so difficult coming from yeah the comfort of

Matt: 48:59

the u. s And and you talk you kind of touched on this but reference point there, right? it's like I talk about this all the time just with friends because I think as our lives get more and more controlled, safer, like all these things, our reference point shifts so much that, and I told Shelby this the other day, like we had a little fight and it turned into like a bigger fight and it was about nothing. And afterwards I was like, this is like, I'm sorry this happened because it's kind of annoying because I realized the next day I kind of reset my reference point. I was like, if I had an appropriate reference point for like what matters in life. This would have been so negligible. It wouldn't have even like registered on my radar. Right. But because my reference point had become so like small and inwardly focused, my perspective had become so small and inwardly focused. It was a big deal because it disrupted this like tiny little perspective. But if your perspective's big, or in this case, if you. Have a big range of discomfort when you have a little thing happen and barely even, it doesn't even affect really high performers. It's like, okay, what are you? No, it's just like, and that's, that's another thing I see out here. The, the rules thing with kids. So, again, fascinating to, I feel like I'm just doing a bunch of like social experiments. Yeah, yeah. Social experiments. Like some kids have to have rules. They have to have someone else dictate the rules for them. And this kind of goes down to the, I think the same principle of like you're, you get so used to everything going by the book rules being followed to a t. And then they go play pick up in their driveway and they want me to be the ref. I'm like, no, I'm like ref the game or I'll be like, yeah, sure. And I call no fouls basically. I basically only call like elbows to the head, you know, and they get mad at me. And it's just like, I'm not going to call in driveway basketball. I'm not going to call a handshake. Like, I'm just, I'm just not going to do it. But that's what they expect because they watch it on TV and you know, the super nice college basketball or NBA games and the refs call it so tight. I'm like anywhere else in the world you play like high school, college, intramural, you'll never have that foul called ever in a million years. And even if you did, you shouldn't expect if they call it whatever, but you shouldn't expect that to be like the standard of how fouls are going to be called. And so I even see that in, in like them playing basketball, right? Like that same thing. And they get so mad. It's that like comfort thing. It's just so, it's

Chris: 51:35

so, I think it's going to become more and more prevalent in everyone's life, uh, definitely already seeing it in my field, I think in the middle, I'm sure you're going to see it. You're going to see it in kids. Especially like the generation, you know, as things just become so easy and convenient and comfortable and like, obviously there's some good things about it, but from a, at least from my perspective, from a mental toughness standpoint and overcoming adversity, it is not helpful.

Matt: 52:06

Well, I mean, you think from an evolutionary perspective. We're so wired to perceive threats and that's something he talks about on this podcast. Michael Easter. We're wired to perceive threats So we're going to find a threat. We're going to find one and so as our level of comfort shifts We're just gonna keep finding threats and dumber and dumber things basically or things that matter to less and less and so our ability to Do things that help reset that or have practices on a daily basis that reset that allow that Reference point to stay in a more correct position rather than just constantly kind of shifting with the tide, like further and further down. So I'm excited to read it. Uh, definitely, definitely something that, um, I, uh, am interested to see how this book changes my thoughts, but also just keep, uh, Participate in the social experience in my neighborhood with these. Yeah, we'll

Chris: 53:06

definitely probably touch touch back on this because like I said, it's just so So prevalent now. Yeah, I hard to avoid.

Matt: 53:14

Yeah, I mean, I think you've talked about this with me before but like Djokovic I I don't think he's super bothered by like the wind, you know, or Certain things with how he grew up the course he played on How he trained as a kid.

Chris: 53:34

At least everything I've heard, he trained in an empty swimming pool as a kid. That was his first

Matt: 53:39

court. So it's like, probably not too bothered by, you know, these little ticky tack things. Definitely. And so, that's probably at least part of,

Chris: 53:49

uh, And like arguably one of the most mentally tough athletes

Matt: 53:52

ever. You know, I think those are kind of the big things I had for today I I these types of episodes are fun just to kind of bounce around some random ideas for a while. I hope you guys enjoyed Yeah anything to finish

Chris: 54:06

with yeah, I mean we I think uh, I was just talking to you beforehand. We got some Some, hopefully some additional, uh, mediums of content coming out here in the near future. Um, we'll have more updates on that soon, uh, as we kind of build and continue to grow this thing. And just, you know, we, we really enjoy doing this. And so hopefully you guys do as well. And, um, again, just interaction, questions, topics, things like that, that, uh, you think would be interesting to discuss, uh, always definitely open to that and love. Those types of things, but yeah, um, stay tuned for all that. And, um, sweet. Thanks for

Matt: 54:44

being here. See you guys next week.