Dangers of the Growth Mindset

In this episode we dive into one of the most popular ideas in the world of psychology over the last 15 years, the Growth Mindset. We explore the nuance of the growth mindset, and how everything has pros and cons. We then discuss some of the assumptions of the growth mindset that can actually hurt performance and lead to burnout. We hope you enjoy this episode!

Hillary Allen Article: https://www.hillaryallen.com/blog/struggling-with-a-growth-mindset

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the backseat driver podcast, where we attempt to look differently at the world of performance, psychology, and sport. My name is Chris DeMarco and by trade, I am a middle performance consultant. My cohost, Matthew is a doctor, avid runner, and someone who's not afraid to stir the pot, who also happens to be my brother.

Chris: 0:30

Hello and welcome everyone to today and this week's edition of the backseat driver podcast here with my brother, Matthew, we are back. It's been a couple of weeks since we've recorded. So excited to, to do this

Matt: 0:47

again with you. Well, we just record a different episode that'll probably come out first, but, but yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah, good

Chris: 0:59

point. So yeah, today we're going to talk about a topic. I'm actually really excited to hear your thoughts on and I think it's pretty prevalent in today's world society. You know, even if you're just kind of in a, in a job, whether you're a parent or if you're you know, a kid like high school, middle school, listening to this which I know we have a couple people that do. Can I talk about the concept of, of a growth mindset, which that word, at least in my world gets thrown around a lot. And so I want to kind of start with defining what that is. And also like why, cause you, you brought this up as a topic idea, which I really like of like, why talk about this First, maybe let's

Matt: 1:54

start there. Yeah. So one really interesting thing, I was taking a poll of the kids and adults in, in our neighborhood alley this afternoon before we recorded this. And I was like, have you ever heard of the growth mindset? And a lot of the kids were like, no. But basically all the adults had. So I think pretty much anyone over like 18 to 20, like I'd expect them to have at least heard this term. But we will define it in a second, but probably the most interesting thing I heard is I was asking people as one person said, Oh yeah, we have that the definition and like what it is and why it's good as a poster in our house. So I thought that was a really interesting. And. So I think this episode will be, I told her she should listen to this podcast. But I think that was something that kind of struck me. And also I think points to the prevalence of this idea and how people perceive growth mindset and not saying it's not good, but I think we'll kind of dive into the nuance a little bit today and dive into. The pros and cons of a growth mindset because before a couple weeks ago, I don't even think I had ever really considered the cons. So this episode is kind of spawned out of an article by Hillary Allen, who's an ultra runner. And she actually had written a blog article pretty recently where she talked about some of the cons of the growth mindset, especially in endurance training and kind of struck a chord with us. And we, we both thought it would be a good discussion and a discussion that kind of brought out some, some different facets of growth mindset and the different things that come along with that, especially with Chris's experience. And yeah, so that's what we're going to dive into today should be fun. So I think

Chris: 3:51

the, the, I really liked the word you use there nuance because we're going to spend a little bit of time for sure, talking about maybe some of the cons. And I think the reason for that is that most 99 percent of what I hear and probably most you guys have heard about the growth growth mindset is how good it is. And I, it is kind of, that is kind of funny because actually one of the notes, and maybe we'll get into it a little bit later. Is like I said, how just normalized it is to throw that term around it's on posters. I've heard, you know, a lot of coaches talk about it. And again, like, I think that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But yeah, just thinking about kind of the kind of like we were doing the other week with the think again, maybe just, just looking at it from a different perspective of. You know, what could be potential,

Matt: 4:45

Yeah, subtle, subtle little pitfalls and pitfalls. Yeah, exactly. And one thing that this has actually been really good for me. To actually examine some of these, because I, as I read this article, I noticed that some of these were probably true of me, especially in my training or in my sports career. So I've been kind of thinking about some of those things over the last few weeks is, is we've prepared for this episode. And I'm excited to see what Chris has to say

Chris: 5:17

about that. Okay. So let's, let's define it. Yeah. So a growth mindset. Originally kind of the term, at least the popular term was coined by a psychologist, Carol Dweck, researcher at Stanford, I think around 2007 was when her work on this first came out. I mean, I could be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure that's what I, what I read. And. Initially kind of looked at young kids and looked at like, you know, what if we used terms of, you know, great try if they fail versus, or in like really praising efforts attempting things, validating failures versus. You know, kind of the more at the time, more conventional approach of like praising successes not giving us good feedback in whatever way that looks, you know, for, for failed attempts at certain things in, in kids. And so, you know, the research came out and just kind of became this, this train of like, Oh, we need to teach, you know, raise all children in every environment in this way. And I think a lot of good has come outta that. So, so I wanna preface everything with like, growth mindset by and large is, is I think a positive thing. I, I think as a coach, as a parent, as a teacher, there's a lot of great aspects and I'm glad that this has kind of transformed over the past couple of years, you know, but I think with somethings. Maybe maybe we can go a little bit too far What like a good you know too much of a good thing isn't always good and I almost feel like maybe in certain contexts That's where this is. This is gone so You know if we're if we're gonna critique it and kind of after reading that article and just kind of getting your thoughts on it Like what what was the first thing that stood out to you? That, as you said, like, wow, I had never really thought about this aspect

Matt: 7:13

of it. Well, I have a question for you as you were just talking this, this question came to my mind. What is the difference between a process mindset and a growth mindset? Because in my mind, growth mindset, in a lot of ways, parallels a process mindset because it's going against an outcome based mindset, right? Do you have any thoughts on, I was just thinking, I don't have an answer on that, but I just, as you were talking, that thought kind of came in my head and I just kind of wanted to explore it a little

Chris: 7:41

bit. I, I'm, it's funny you brought that up because I was actually thinking about that as well. And I think there is a little bit of a difference. In the sense of like process mindset usually is defined by things that are fully kind of 100 percent within your control, a true process mindset. And so in that sense, you're not really failing, you know, like if I am hitting a tee shot in golf, in my, I go through my process. And I define, you know success on that t shot of just like going through my process Then I even if I missed the fairway, I wouldn't have failed. I would have succeeded Whereas I think the growth mindset is a little bit like hey, you missed the fairway, but like

Matt: 8:29

great try now That's a good. Yeah, that's really good. So one thing that I did want to say is just I wanted to read this this from hillary allen's article Which we'll link to in the show notes but she Kind of summed up growth mindset like this. And I liked this. So if you wanted a more succinct definition, a growth mindset emphasizes the belief that abilities and talents can be developed through dedication and hard work. It's an empowering philosophy, one that encourages athletes to embrace challenges, persist in the face of setbacks, and see failures as opportunities for growth. So, I think that's a pretty good summary. I think the main words in there are belief that abilities and talents can be developed through dedication and hard work. And then that last part that persists in the face of setbacks and sees failures as opportunities. I think those are two really key aspects of a growth mindset. Because what's, but I do think it's probably helpful to say the opposite, which is a fixed mindset, right? In the book there's fixed versus growth mindset and a fixed mindset kind of sees failures as an indictment, either of their identity or their ability or kind of their effort. So it basically looks at and says, you're not good enough. And then you internalize that as. I will never be good enough, or I can't be good enough at this thing. So examples, and this is where I think the nuance comes in, right? Cause you said, I think this has been really good and I agree. So take for instance, natural talent, right? The connotation, the word natural talent, I think growth mindset has really pushed back against that idea, which is you hear it all the time. Even, you know, Lucas too. And people will use that phrase of. Oh, he's just so talented. You know, he's so naturally hits a tennis ball or dribbles a basketball or shoots a basketball. And, and I think people extrapolate that out. They go to math class in first grade through middle school and they're really good at math. And they're like, Oh, I just have such good talent. Or I'm so bad at math when I'm in elementary school. Oh, I must not be very good at math. And that's kind of a fixed mindset approach of. If I'm not very good at something when I first started or it's hard early on, that must not be kind of the thing that my genetics are, are made for, or not kind of how my brain works and kind of seeing that as a roadblock that's telling you to do something else instead of persisting through it and saying, Oh, maybe this is an opportunity to get better at this. And maybe actually I, I could be very good at math or X, Y, Z sport. So I think that's a good contrast just to Lay out there at the beginning of this episode. So people kind of know what the two poles. Yeah.

Chris: 11:03

And that's in her book mindset, if anyone's read it or is interested further in this topic, that's the source to go through to learn a lot about this. Yeah, the fix. So the fixed mindset being the contrast, the, the biggest downside of a fixed mindset that, and I actually see this a lot is. If someone defines you as talented at something like speaking from

Matt: 11:31

personal experience

Chris: 11:32

a yeah I mean a little bit but but also like I think I've didn't appreciate how common this was And it could be anything right? It could be a sport. It could be academia It could be art and people, you know, and you're just good at it at a young age, you know, let's just say people automatically credit your talent Especially at a younger age, because it's like, Oh, well, they haven't even had time to work harder on it. And they're better than everyone else at their age. So it must be talent and the, the, that's actually not the problem is like calling someone talent. It's, it goes into the identity of that individual a lot of times. And so if I view myself as say a talented, Basketball player now the world becomes a threat to me because if I start to fail that Kind of aura that other people or myself have built up has a chance to fall apart And this is where I think the growth mindset does a really good job, especially in kids is like recognizing that You know, that failure isn't an indictment on your talent. It's not an indictment on your ego, your status. And so, so that's kind of, you know, one of the things that I see personally from the fixed mindset, some of the issues that occur. Yeah.

Matt: 12:57

Before we get into the pitfalls of the growth mindset, I do think just for a more personal example, this is a really good case study that Chris and I have dissected over the years between him and I, in terms of. How our sports careers kind of played out chris Describing that that previous example was pretty much him very talented from a young age very successful at multiple sports he Especially tenant. I think tennis is probably the main one that he would say you know was in some Positions to play in like I don't know not like the highest tier stuff but like pretty good as a as a young 10 11 12 year old and You Had some success early on, especially as he was just starting to train a little bit more specifically for that. And then kind of got into a period where he started to lose a little bit more was playing harder kids. And I think you can speak to this, but I think that felt like a threat on, on your overall talent. And you felt like maybe there wasn't a whole lot you could control about that. You kind of lost that feeling of control versus. For me, it was kind of the opposite. I was pretty slow, weak, unathletic. I had very good coordination growing up, but my overall athletic ability was pretty low until I was about 16 years old, where the coordination and that like ability kind of caught up with each other. And so for me, I was, no one ever told me I was super good. I was always on the B or C team, always annoyed because I felt like I could play with the kids that were, you know, a year above me or a team above me. And so I think for me, seeing those successes over the years of moving up from team to team, to team, as I worked harder was kind of like a reinforcement of this growth mindset principle. And then when I got to that place where I was successful and people were like, Oh, you're actually pretty good. In my head it had nothing to do with talent You know, so I think that's an interesting case study that we have we've talked about over the years

Chris: 15:02

But but it can also be both and I think i've actually had both instances in my life I look at like you said tennis career was which was much more or really when I was really young and obviously just didn't have the capacity to, to cope with that at that time, which is completely understandable for like a 12 year old. But, but then I, I, when I picked up golf, I was a little bit later in my kind of athlete, you know, I was like 13 or 14 before I even really played at all. And then didn't even play competitively until I was about 15 or 16, which is really late. For someone who played in college like myself, But I didn't ever view my I think I viewed myself more with that mindset that you had In golf because i was always behind right because I started so late and so I really worked Extremely hard in that sport to get to the level that I did Whereas like in tennis or even maybe basketball a little bit. It was like, if I, I want, I was always viewed myself as talented. Other people viewed myself as kind of this natural gift. And so it was just really hard for me to, to deal with failure. And I know I'm a lot of people, especially kids deal with that.

Matt: 16:12

Yeah. This is a really important point though, that you just made. And again, going back to the nuance part. Which we'll come back to over and over again. You just probably, you know, if you don't remember anything else from this episode, you should remember what Chris just said in one area, I felt like I was fixed in the other area. I felt like I was growth mindset. I, I know when I first read the book, I thought, Oh, I am growth mindset or I am fixed mindset, but no, it's in different areas, depending on different experiences, different maturity levels, you're somewhere on a spectrum between the two. And that can be vastly different in different areas of life. So maybe in work, you're more fixed mindset on that spectrum. And your athletic endeavors, you're extremely growth mindset. That is super common.

Chris: 16:57

It's a, it's a great point. And I would say it's usually the thing that you. Care about the most and identify most with that is going to be a little bit more fixed.

Matt: 17:08

Yeah, that's a good point. This is a side tangent, but I've just have already noticed it a couple of times during our conversation. I've been listening to a finding mastery by Michael Gervais. And then I listened to a book called super communicators by Charles Duhigg. And I feel like it has completely changed the way that I listen and hear people talking and, and the kinds of things I'm listening for in conversation. That has nothing to do with this podcast, but as you were talking, it just, it just struck me how differently I'm listening to you talk and the things I'm listening for and kind of how I looped back what you just said. Chris can speak to it. That's so that's such an area of speaking of growth, such an area of growth for me. I am, I have been a traditionally a horrible listener. But just something that even during conversations I'm noticing is different as I listen and, and Shelby was talking about that today, but as you did that, it just struck me. I was like, wow, I just looped you naturally.

Chris: 18:10

Yeah. And well, well, it's cool. And you did. But I think the cool part of it, and this, this is my side tangent, I won't go into it, but it's like why I really don't like personality tests. It's cause it, it feels like an excuse. Cause it'd be so easy for you to just be like, Oh, you know, I'm not, I'm not a good listener. Right. That's not my natural gift, but like you can be like, there's nothing preventing you from doing it. It just might take a little bit more intention, practice, you know, focus at first until you get good at it. But like, you know, I hear people say that all the time and they're like, Oh, I'm, I'm a talker. You know, it's

Matt: 18:45

like, well, that's the one, you know, with so I'm an eight on the Enneagram. Which if anyone knows that's the challenger. So my, my default is basically just arguing. So I think if you have a this is all interwoven in a weird way right now, which is kind of cool, but I think the fixed mindset for someone like me would be to say, I just, I don't really care about emotions in conversation. I'm going to be direct. And that's just my personality, you know, verse what Chris just said. And I think is very true. And obviously I probably wouldn't be married to Shelby still, if that was my attitude, because. You can't just bulldoze someone and be like that's just my personality. Sorry. Because that that won't get you very far unless you're a certain political candidate. So nice nice, yeah, we don't have that many people listening. Yeah, it's fine But I think that's that is such a good point to say that all these things are and that's one thing about enneagram That's actually cool is it has the growth right? And what's the if you were to look at my growth? It's becoming a good and Empathic listener is actually the thing that I grow towards. And, and so that is, I think a really cool part of, of that person. I, but I agree with you. If you have a fixed static personality and you're like, that's just me. I think that is

Chris: 20:00

of all the personality tests. I would say I'd like that one the best because there is a little bit more nuanced, a little bit more you know, has the wings, the, the very, you know, a little bit more variation into each of those, which I appreciate because it's just, I don't know, in my experience, it's really hard to, people can put themselves into a box and I think that almost is like that self fulfilling prophecy of like, Oh, I am this number or this, you know, orientation. Like I know the Myers Briggs like in JG, JGTF or whatever. I've never really liked the Myers Briggs. But like, you know, they all have like their scale and then it's like, Oh, this is me. And it's like, that might be, I like the word you use as like default, right? That that's your tendency, maybe your natural tendency, which is fine. And there's strengths, pros and cons to every personality, but there's the only reason someone wouldn't round it out is because they're not willing to work on it.

Matt: 21:02

So, or it's a threat, right? If I, if I try to be more. Empathic, try to be a better listener, try to match people where they're at. That does leave me more open to failure, vulnerability, all those things, which, you know, going back to the actual conversation is does leave you open to feeling like you could be a failure, you're not very good at that thing that you're trying to do. And, and that can be harmful to the ego as you were describing earlier. So I, I see both sides as someone that has tried and failed many a time to. To do those things, but it is, it is cool to see the growth. I think those little wins, especially when people point those out to you can be really helpful. So I think that's a way to be encouraging to other people is to point out those little things that you see them working on those little growths. Instead of waiting for some outcome growth. So yeah, we are really no I don't want to do some good stuff right now. Yeah, kind of there's no time. There's no topics a little onto the dirt road So this

Chris: 22:08

is more this is more my style. This is the

Matt: 22:11

4x4 Rd. We've got off the paved road

Chris: 22:15

I don't know. I may have said this on here before, but I always joke. I'm the professor that if I was a professor that would just go off the rails, if a student asks one question, I don't know if you guys ever had that where you'd be like, Hey, we can get Mr. So and so off topic today, just someone asking him a question. That's like a hundred percent me, but I also love it. Like, I don't even care. Like I'd rather do that than say on topic. So.

Matt: 22:37

Well, it's like in schools, right? Wait, they're teaching us all this stuff in school. All the kids are learning things. You can just go on the internet and learn anything. So what's the most valuable skill learning how to think and talk. And I just finished a audio book by Malcolm Gladwell. And at the very end of the book, he presents this whole story about world war two bombings of Japan. And he just, he builds it up this whole way. You think you're going to like this character. And then he just drops this ethical question right at the end, just leaves it. That's the end of the book. And I, I thought to myself, this is such a great, this is what makes Malcolm Gladwell so great. He's just able to tell these great stories. And then he's able to leave this question where you legitimately ask yourself, I don't know how I feel about that. It seems if all you had was the end of the book, you'd be like, that's so clear cut. But because he's told the story so well you see both sides and and you say that is extremely Complicated and nuanced and complex what book I'm it's called bomber mafia

Chris: 23:50

Yeah,

Matt: 23:52

it's basically the premise at the end of the book is Is it more ethical to stick to your ethics and say the ends never justify the means? Or do you use any available means to, to shorten the war and in theory, save soldiers lives by them not having to engage in a future battle. And that's kind of the ethical question at the end. Interesting. All right, let's,

Chris: 24:18

Yeah, so I'll, I'll ask you a question. So what, what would be, going back to the growth mindset what would be maybe a critique that, what was the first critique or thought that you had that kind of stood out? The

Matt: 24:31

first one that stood out to me personally was this idea that in a growth mindset, there's kind of this expectation of consistent linear growth in some way. You will always be growing. And I see this a lot because I run and running is in general it's not linear at all, but you do generally consistently grow as you get better and it can make it hard to just enjoy the thing. It can make it so you, your mind, even if you try to turn it off is always thinking, Oh, if I do this, that's helping me run a faster 5k. If I do this, I'm getting in better shape for next year, instead of just saying, wow, I'm really enjoying the present. I'm enjoying the leaves on the ground and the sound of the wind and the birds chirping and no cars on the road at 5 AM, you know, so I think it can lead to you not being as present because there's always kind of a, an ends that, that, that growth is working towards. So that, that was the first one that stuck out to me because I, I feel that sometimes, and you've even said this. Oh, you're always thinking about technique. You're always, when we ski, you're always working on your technique for skiing instead of just being present and doing that activity. And so I think for me, that's probably the easiest pitfall to

Chris: 25:54

fall into. Yeah, you brought it up and I think it's a good example. So I'll give more context to it. So like when we ski and we've gone out skiing every year for 25 years at this point I think you're a little bit more analytically minded. And so is our dad, who we like to go out and ski with. And I'm a little bit more feel oriented when it comes to sports athletics, I like to just kind of Know it just the technique stuff isn't as interesting to me It's not as it does almost take the joy out of it a little bit for me But also like recognizing the importance in necessary You know, work that needs to be put in on that. And to your point, you know, we would go out and I kind of got, I actually had a conversation with you guys about it. Cause it was, it was starting to frustrate me. Whereas like you guys. When you ski enjoy learning about the technical aspect. Like that, that's, that's like something that you guys, I think genuinely enjoy. But for me, it wasn't, I was like, I want to just go ski as fast as I can down the mountain and feel the wind blowing past me as I'm going 50 miles an hour. Like, that's, what's fun to me. Not like, Oh, did I get my hips in the right spot on this turn? And so, so that's where I think you're, I agree. If you have a true growth mind if you have a growth mindset all the time It can be kind of like where are you out? It can take some of the joy the natural joy out of the thing that you're doing Because it's like the goal is always I I need to improve at something. Like you said versus just like let me enjoy the Experience of doing that. So I think there's a balance to it.

Matt: 27:43

And you're always kind of critiquing right? Right, right. It's natural you think oh I can get a little bit better So i'm gonna look at how I did this Oh, I failed on this run, but that's exciting because that means I can get a little bit better. If you're doing that every single run or every single time you go skiing it. Yeah, I think it just, it can lead to you not being as present as an enjoyment of the activity. So what I started to do is for one or two runs at the start of the day, really work on something. And then kind of just try to turn my mind off and just do the, do the thing, just kind of let the movement happen and kind of let it go. I think, I

Chris: 28:30

think I would argue it'd be, it would be really hard to be fully immersed, which is kind of one of the components of like being in the zone or flow state when you go in with. a growth improvement mindset To be honest, I'm kind of just thinking about that like you I don't think i've ever heard someone who's like An experience of being in the zone and being like man. I was really I was working on this You know, they're they're not thinking about that. So again, is there a time and place for deliberate practice? Of course. And there needs to be a lot of it, but there's also a time and place to let things flow, to turn your mind off and to just enjoy, like you said, I love that, of like, be present with the activity that you're doing. And that could be, you know, it could be your job too. Like, I loved

Matt: 29:18

what Hillary Allen said, and this is. Almost like a 0. 1 a from, from what we just talked about, but she's a pro athlete. So she talks about how this pressure also puts a pressure to always improve. And that actually puts a pressure of comparison to your peers and the pro athletics world, because you're always looking at someone else and saying, well, they're running these times on these courses, or they ran this time on this course last year, and I need to finish in the top 10 to keep my contract. And you think you should be in the top 10 because you're always growing and and she just mentioned how that leads to this Kind of pitfall of comparison and how much pressure that can put on you as a pro athlete So I thought that was a good one. Yeah,

Chris: 30:04

mine's Somewhat similar was one of my Takes I use the word pressure as well, but I used it as a pressure to, this is actually probably my biggest critique is like a pressure to make a positive out of a negative experience. I think that this is to me, the biggest pitfall of the growth mindset, the culture I'll call it growth mindset. Culture. Definitely. Is this idea that every time we fail, lose, you know, don't perform as well. Yeah. It's a learning opportunity and we grow from it and that gets old. There's also, there's also times. And I love I've heard this over the years from a number of different people, like it's okay to acknowledge sometimes that some things just suck. And we don't need to try to make, it's kind of like the inside out movie where joy tries to take over every single situation. And to me that's like the the harm of the growth mindset is like oh we got our butt kicked today Like all right. What can we learn? Oh you just had a devastating loss like oh, but we can learn from this experience next time and it's like sometimes sadness is the proper emotion sometimes grief, and I don't know if despair despair is probably too dramatic but like grief sadness frustration is appropriate for those situations and And sometimes the growth doesn't occur so much later. And I think that's as someone who kind of coaches a little, you know, it's whatever you want to call it, mental coaching. And then obviously just normal coaching that those experiences will, I think we will grow from them, but putting the, the standard of like, all right, what did, you know, what did we learn from this experience versus like. In an introspective person. Might take that. It might take a couple of months. Heck, it might even take a couple of years, but I'll look back on some of those experiences and learn from them without someone having to be like, all right, like let's, you know, going through that. What did we learn? This is, this is one other thing. And I know you want to jump in, but

Matt: 32:23

I just have a question. This, so this is the,

Chris: 32:29

so at I came across these journals and they were specifically made for tennis players. And they had like all this thing you could like fill out and at the top, it was like, in this match, did you win as the first option? And then the second option was instead of lose, was learned. And that made me so mad. I was like, if I was a player and someone gave me this notebook, I would throw it away. I, I, I know I lost and I think it's okay to admit that. So that's to me is that that kind of stuff I can see if that bothers certain people. I'm in that camp. I get it And as someone who like does have to nurture a growth mindset at times Like I said, this is where it goes a little bit too far and the culture Can you know be a little bit

Matt: 33:16

frustrating. Yeah, so It sounds like what you're saying really bothers you is that it almost removes the human aspect of You Like relationships, sports experiences. Cause the human aspect is generally not the most practical. It's, it's usually the emotional or social aspect of like, how do I, how does this make me feel or how does this like impact, like who I am? Is that kind of what you're saying? Like it, it almost bypasses those, those two steps of like the emotional feeling, the who am I feeling the identity feeling and go straight to like practical. This is. This is the thing that needs to change. Let's make a plan, all that. Is that kind of what you're

Chris: 34:01

saying? I think that's a really good summary of it for sure. I mean, we were just watching March madness games. I think it's a good example of like how ridiculous it would be to like go to Kentucky who just lost to Oakland and go up to some of their players and be like, all right, like, would you, would you learn from that experience? And it's like, they just, their whole season just ended like in the blink of an eye. And they had high hopes for final four national championship. And, you know, they show up one night, you know, and it doesn't go well. And it's like, there might be something to be learned from it down the road. And maybe some of the players are ready for that. Right, right away. And that's fine. If someone approaches it with that, that's totally cool. But I think forcing people to do, or at least like we kind of said, feeling the pressure to the need to do that all the time, yes, is can remove that human element to

Matt: 35:02

it. Yeah. It's funny. You put that because I didn't look at your notes at all. And one of mine literally says you lose the human relational component of life. That's what I put because life is inherently inefficient, winding, non linear, and the growth mindset kind of tries to make everything efficient, linear concrete, practical, you know, it, it's. It tries to smooth out. I think some of those rough edges that you're describing. So I just thought it was,

Chris: 35:34

it's a, it's a good point. You know, one other thing, I know I'm kind of going here, but something I think, I think about, I've run into a couple of times, like, okay, what if this is your only chance with this particular, in this particular situation or context, right? Like if, if I'm always supposed to learn from every situation, like, what if it's a one off? Like I'm, I say this all the time, people, this, this drives me nuts when commentators will be like, Oh, you know, like you're leading the masters and then, you know, you blow it and they're like, Oh, well he'll learn from this and I'll be back here many times. And it's like, that's not a guarantee. Smiley Kaufman was in the final pairing in the, of the masters about seven years ago or something, eight years ago. And he never got that opportunity again. So like there's, there are those instances where it's like, maybe having a fixed mindset is better. Right. Because if you go into that final round of the masters with a lead and you're like, all right, I just want to learn from it today. It's like, I don't, I don't think that's the best mindset from a performance standpoint. I think,

Matt: 36:53

yeah, you see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, this is given a little, I think we'll probably release the Boston episode first, but rich in the Boston episode literally said the fear keeps him training sometimes that's a very fixed mindset kind of statement to say, Oh yeah. The fear is what, what drives me or the. You know, I, I sense the moment and I'm only thinking about that moment. Those are very fixed mindset kind of statements, but probably the best kind of mindset to have given the situation you're describing.

Chris: 37:27

Well, we'll think about it. If he, that that's going to, I, and I think it helps him. And if he goes in with a mindset of like, Oh, well, you know, If it doesn't go well, it doesn't go well. I don't think that's going to motivate him to hit all of the miles that he's needs to hit to perform his best. You know? So like in that sense, I don't think that the growth mindset is super appropriate. I think like the balance of it, of like also, you know, recognizing that there's going to be some, he's going to learn from this experience regardless, but I don't think that should be his goal. Right. And I don't think that is his goal. I think his goal is to perform and, you know, if he doesn't, he might be able to look back and take some things from it and, and, and recognize, okay, I could have done this better. I need to adjust this for next time, but that, that didn't sound like his goal. And I think it's

Matt: 38:17

probably a good thing. That's not, I, I want to give a, another example that came up recently. So the U S Olympic marathon trials were in February in Orlando. So all of the pros that are trying to make the Olympic team in the marathon, they go, and basically whoever finishes top three in each race goes to the final The Olympics, it is pretty, it's a pretty cool way to do it. There's no selection committee. It's just, you've run this time over the last two years, you get to come to this race, whoever finishes top three, they go to the Olympics for the marathon. It's very, it's a very American way to pick a team. I'll say that. But it makes for a great theater, but I was listening to some of the post race interviews and two of the favorites. Basically said, Oh yeah, I I woke up that morning and I had a stomach bug. Hard to have a growth. You know, it's like, that is just, yeah, that just sucks. That's just my point. Right. That, that just sucks. And, and they were saying they had, they made such a great point. And this can be applicable to a lot of things, but they're saying for the marathon, you need perfect training, so you need growth mindset, you need the training, and then you need some luck sprinkled on top because you can't control if you get a stomach bug, you can't, this other girl had this weird Illness where she like passed out on the you know It's just like it's like I haven't been sick in the last six months and I got sick this you know so I think that aspect of it to just realizing that certain situations require a certain level of luck or things working out a certain way that you really have no no control over and being And being okay. And in those interviews, they didn't say, Oh man, learn from this next time, because there's not, there's nothing to learn. They said I had a great block. I was feeling more fit than I ever was. It just, yeah, it just sucks. It just sucks. It's just luck. So that's where I think realizing that there's that nuance and balances is really helpful. Do you have any other, any other big ones you wanted to go through? No,

Chris: 40:18

that's a, that's a great example. I mean that, yeah. Wow. Well, and that does suck. And, and

Matt: 40:24

for a year, for a year, I mean, for, for, for, The marathon, there are some big events, so it's not like the Olympics are the only thing, but a lot of these people want to make the Olympic team because that's just such a unique experience.

Chris: 40:36

And this is, this is where, and obviously I don't, it'd be hard for people to be around more volume of coaches than I am. So I'll share, I'll share the experience, but I think like over the past, you know, five ish years. This is probably the one area that I, I think good intentions by a lot of people, but they, they miss that where it's like that there, you know, there's just such, there's certain situations like that. That's just, you just, empathy is the only and best. I, there's actually a term we're going to have Vadim Jacobson on coming up soon here. He's another mental performance coach. And I know we've had a conversation before about toxic positivity, and I think like the growth mindset can fall into that category sometimes, and kind of going along about what we talked about of like taking the human element out of it. And I think this is, that's kind of what I'm trying to talk about with the, People like good intentions, but coming across the wrong way is that toxic positivity of like, we, you don't need to be positive every situation and actually it can be more harmful than good.

Matt: 41:50

That's just a good lesson for life though. That, that this is completely, we're going off the four by four road onto the the access fire road that has no maintenance now, but. That is that's just a good life lesson. You hear so often when people have something bad happen, not related to sports at all, just life things happen, whether it's a certain diagnosis, miscarriage, they get injured, blah, blah, blah, like any of those things happen and people will come up and say, Oh, this is all part of God's plan. Or. You know this will work out for your good, you know that kind of stuff which I think falls into that camp that you're describing That is i'm just going to tell you if you're listening to this. I don't care how old you are That is the worst possible thing you can say to someone and not because it's always not true. Sometimes it is actually true But the reality is you're not meeting the person where they're at in that process of figuring out what they're feeling and what the, what the thing that they're going to take away is you're, you're trying to almost put fast forward on, on what that person's experiencing. And I think that is what I see a lot because people are uncomfortable going back, almost hitting rewind and going back to where the person is because it, it can feel very uncomfortable for them or vulnerable for them to Ask the person that and then have to deal with the, the answer. So I see that so often, especially in the medical field, someone gets a cancer diagnosis and they want to just fast forward to how are we untreated or whatever. So few doctors are willing to just say that really sucks. That really sucks. It, it, it's something that I've seen over and over again. And I, and you see it with other people too, like people that are in your lives. They're like, Oh, you'll, you have a miscarriage. Oh, you'll, you'll be able to get pregnant again. It's like, you don't know that. Like, you'll know that, right? Like those are, that's kind

Chris: 43:53

of the smiley Kaufman thing.

Matt: 43:55

Those are, those are all things that we say because we're uncomfortable, I think, sitting in those moments with people. So. I would just say, if that's you try to get comfortable being uncomfortable hitting rewind on where you are and trying to go back to where that person still is, because the reality is that person will eventually get to where you are probably, I mean, unless you give really bad advice, but if you're giving good advice, you're going to get there. They'll get there eventually. But if you're trying to give advice when they need someone to sit with them, that advice is going to come across like you're a bad person to say it won't come across. It won't come across the way you think it will. Yeah,

Chris: 44:40

this is, yeah, that's, that's a great point. There's definitely been situations that like conversations I've had with people, whether it's in my job or not, that I'm like, I don't know what to say in this situation, you know? And I think those are the, those are the types. And like when people get uncomfortable, that's like the default response is like, Oh, it'll be okay. Yep. Right. Or whatever version of that you say. And there there's been times where I'm like, try to listen to your own advice. And. Like i'll just sometimes I don't I don't even say anything just like damn You know, like you just sit there and you're just like kind of feel the weight of What they had and sometimes that silence can be so powerful and a lot of times most important thing that people need to do in those situations is I laugh, it's actually kind of sad, but I do, I laugh because it's just, again, it's good intentions, but wrong process of like, I, I've been, I go to, I've been to a lot of tennis tournaments, professional level college, high school, et cetera. And almost always, I would say like 99 percent of the time, when I see a coach and a player after a match, the coach is talking at the player after that, like after a player loses, And I'm like, that is the absolute worst thing you can do in this moment. Maybe there's like an outlier player that can handle that and likes that. That's fine. But the vast majority, I'm like the emotion of losing is raw. They want to, they need to process the match, not you. It's almost like the, the coach is like needs to process. And because they're in like a position of authority, Like takes over the, and it's like, this is what happened and you need to do this and this and improving this and that. And then the growth mindset stuff comes in and like what we need to improve on. And it's like, we're missing the stuff that you just brought up where it's like, Hey, you lost that sucks. Take some time. Or if you need to talk about it, I'm here. And I just don't see a lot of that.

Matt: 46:57

Yeah, that's a, that's a good, a good thought, something good to put in the back of my mind for the future. I think with what you just said, the, the idea that comes to my mind is probably best to wait till that person asks you for whatever you're going to say, because that indicates their readiness. So them asking would say, Hey, I'm ready to receive whatever you've noticed. And if they didn't ask them, they're probably not at that place where they're ready to receive it. That's like a good indicator

Chris: 47:31

probably. And it literally happened in real life, you know, obviously a couple of times where I'm like, Hey, y'all. You know, top loss or whatever. I'll, I'll talk to you later about it. Right. But the player was like, no, I actually want to process it now. Okay, great. And then, you know, I'll go listen. And obviously again, still, unless they're in, in this context, like the player did ask for advice on like, what should I, what should I have done here? And here that's fine. Right. That's completely different because they are approaching you. Right. Right. And they were ready for it. So that would be the only, you know,

Matt: 48:02

context there. I have one more point on the con side and then we can rapid fire some pros just to give some full balance to the whole discussion. But this, this is very, a very medical thing. This is very specific, but I, I do think generally what you're going to see is people who value hard work are going to value the growth mindset and one pitfall that I see, and I'm going to give a specific example and hopefully people can extrapolate this out to other things. But one area where this is super, super prevalent in medicine right now is obesity. So basically if you are someone that has lost a lot of weight because of hard work, You are very growth mindset, meaning you think that everyone is going to be able to basically replicate whatever you did. If they didn't, then they're not growth mindset enough, essentially. And I think you can kind of take that example and apply it to a lot of situations, but I think what it does, what I wrote is it basically. Overvalues hard work it in a way, it puts too much emphasis on what you do and how much you can control almost to a fault. And what I wrote here is it actually leads to prejudice in certain situations because you say, well, I'm better than this person because I did it and they couldn't do it. I think you can apply that to, like I said. Many different areas of life. So that was just one more thought I had kind of a smaller thought, but something that happens, I think in medicine a lot based on people's success or failure in different areas and different health

Chris: 49:42

goals. Yeah. The, the, actually the over appreciation of the work, right. And like, Almost identifying too much with that, you know, instead of talent, it's like, no, it's almost like they view the hard work as their talent.

Matt: 49:56

Right. I mean we've already gotten political, but that is certainly a prevalent idea in, in one of the political parties.

Chris: 50:05

Cut off my thought. Well, I was going to make a joke of like, You know, I, I worked hard and, you know, lost a bunch of weight or whatever, and now I'm going to become a mindset fitness influencer, right? I'm like, you just need this mindset and, and I think, I think you see this in sports as well. Very similar concept of like, they're, I mean, I see it all the time, people that work so hard and they, like, you just, they just don't have the genetics. Like at some point, like we, we can't ignore the reality of life of like, some people are more, it's going to be more difficult to lose weight. Some people just don't have the genetics to be a professional athlete, right? Like, like those two realities of like, yes, the work can maximize, you know, the certain aspects of those, but some people are going to lose weight, weight more easily than others. I think that's,

Matt: 51:04

It's funny you said that cause I was, that was literally my last one. That's the way you just said of an inaccurate assessment of actual talent. So there's actually a name for it. I learned, so this was something I learned. There's optimism bias, self serving bias and false hope syndrome are certain things that they have. So

Chris: 51:25

is that like, I can just work if I just put in the work, I can do whatever I want. Yeah. I think it's kind

Matt: 51:31

of the The idea that anything kind of the, you know, the graduation speech of, if you put your mind to it, you can do anything kind of thing. I think it's kind of that kind of thing. The, the growth mindset gone wild kind of approach where there are no guard rail stipulations or ceilings on anything. Which obviously we know is not reality. So that was the other one. Thanks for making that that last point Yeah, my only

Chris: 52:00

last one I I think is sort of related to some of the stuff we talked about but it's like I talked about the growth mindset culture and The only point I would make is I think cliche when something becomes cliche or like overused I don't know if you start to feel like that, but I start to resist it. I'm like i'm sick of hearing about this Yeah It's the last thing like, you know, it's like

Matt: 52:26

it doesn't bother that's, I feel like that's more of your, maybe that's just me. That's more you for sure. It doesn't bother me at much. Cause I just, it's almost like a sifter, whatever, you know, stuff comes in the sifter, the stuff that doesn't matter. It kind of strains out for me and whatever's actually useful. I, I still use, but it is what's annoying. I, what I will say does annoy me is I do have to deal with that in terms of the implications with my patients. Now I will say that annoys me.

Chris: 52:57

Well I thought I was I enjoyed that conversation. I think we, we stayed on topic and got off topic, which is usually a good, good sign. Those are the best

Matt: 53:05

conversations.

Chris: 53:07

Hopefully, hopefully this is. Good information, opinions, obviously agree, disagree.

Matt: 53:14

Do you have any pros before we go? Like bullet point pros that, Oh, I mean, I think,

Chris: 53:18

I think we hit on some of them to be fair, but also like, yeah, I don't want to, I think that pros vastly outweigh the cons to be honest. So I think we should probably finish with that of like, yes, we want to create environment where failure is okay. Right. We want to have people be able to take risks. Fail and learn from them. Like that's a good feedback cycle. We can learn from negative experiences, right? Of course, and should most of the time, right? It's just kind of that caveat we, we placed in front of it. I think from an identity standpoint, like, like I started off with, with a fixed mindset, I think the adoption of a growth mindset can really prevent some of the over identification of. You know, whatever it is, an athletic identity and academic identity jump my job identity. And that can be really beneficial. So I think there's a, and that's just the name, some off the top of my head. I don't know if you have any extra to add, but.

Matt: 54:18

Well, one thing Hillary Allen put in her article as a con of your finances, actually, what you just said, which I thought was was definitely a little bit different than I've thought of it, but she actually put identity entanglement as a con. Meaning that because you always like think you should be growing, it can become unclear, like, where should I be growing? She's like, Should I be growing in my nutrition, which also includes like my day to day shopping, which includes my ability to run as an ultra runner, which includes like how I trained my mind and she, she actually made her point was actually that she thought it blurred the lines for her, which I thought was a different kind of take because she was saying what happens is, okay, I have growth mindset in every area of life. Then I have a setback. I struggle with that. Is that me? Is that just my runner self that is experiencing that, you know, and having that identity to entangled. So I thought that was a, a different perspective that brought some, brought some value to, to what you just said as well, again,

Chris: 55:25

Nuance, yeah, I'd love to be curious to hear her talk about that. Yeah

Matt: 55:31

Four words that I had just to wrap up the conversation. I had ownership belief Control and dreaming. So I think one thing that I love about growth mindset is it helps people take ownership which is just it's so important. I talk to my patients about their health all the time No one else is going to take ownership. Like i'm not going to take ownership for your health They tell me they want to get off their medicines I can't I can't come to your house cook for you shop for you wake up for you There's no one else that's going to take ownership or care as much as you are So I that's one thing I love about the growth mindset is actually believing you can take ownership and then the belief second and and the dreaming one just to round it out But I think if you have a growth mindset you believe you can achieve a lot more. So one quote that Has really been coloring how I think about the world lately is we overestimate what we can do in a day and underestimate what we can do in a decade. And I found that to be very true as I come upon my 10 year anniversary and running when I ran my first marathon in 2015, I ran three 30 and I remember finishing that race and thinking, yeah, it's probably about the best I can do. Like that's, I might be able to run a little bit faster, but I don't really think there's much more for me. And as I get almost a decade later, I essentially believe that if I was able to find the motivation, the actual desire and the time that I could run you, like an Olympic trials qualifying time in the next cycle, or at least, you know, sometime in the next decade, like if I wanted to in a way, and so that's, do you think about how different that is in terms of the actual belief or dreams or vision of what, what you can accomplish. Because I think you just start to realize how much improvement you can make with consistent

Chris: 57:26

practice. Yeah, I think it also opens doors. And I'll give this a personal example. Like, I'm starting a writing class, seminar, whatever you want to call it, in a couple weeks. And I'm super excited about it because I want to write a blog and in the future I want to write a book. And I would say I'm not like a naturally gifted writer. It's not something i've done a lot of in the past it's not something i've ever been praised on by my teachers in the past But it's like what you know with it'd be very easy for me to just be like, oh i'm I'm, just not a good writer and it's just not gonna be But i'm like if I work on it and I get the right, you know teaching and coaching and i've i've been reading a lot of writers stuff and a lot of them always say like The best way to get good at writing is just write a lot. And that's something I want to do. It's, it's a dream, right? Sort of, of mine. And so I think just the, the idea of the growth mindset helps open that door, which is, which is fun.

Matt: 58:27

Yeah. I love to write. I also hope to write a lot in the future. And I got a 36 on my commas and punctuation tests in high school. I think I got a

Chris: 58:34

26 out of a hundred. It says like, it was, it wasn't like 26%. It was like 26 percent tile.

Matt: 58:41

No, I got like 36 on the test also pretty low on the percentile on those standardized tests. But anyway yeah, I think this has been one of our better conversations. Actually, we'll see you guys tell us, but we're glad someone's listening and you can give us some some feedback and hopefully we can have a growth mindset about it and not have it crush your identity. Not too much of a group. Thanks guys. Yeah, man. See you guys later. Bye.