Jamie Wilson: Pro Golf, Loving Your Job, and Being Ready for Your Breakthrough

In this episode we dive into the grind of pro golf with Jamie Wilson.  We discuss how hard it truly is to make the PGA tour, how close Jamie has gotten, and how he still loves the grind even on hard days. We really enjoyed this interview. Hope you enjoy as well.

Transcript

Chris: 0:29

All right. Welcome in to this week's special edition of the backseat driver podcast. We have our good friend here and now it's pretty fun to say this professional golfer, pro athlete Jamie Wilson on the podcast and We're excited. I think we're going to be able to learn a lot from his experience. He's probably got some definitely has a couple of good stories about what it's like to be a pro golfer and we're excited to talk to him. So welcome in Jamie.

Jamie: 0:54

Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's just excited to be here. Be a part of it. I feel like I didn't do enough research for this episode. After you said he's a pro golfer. Now I'm kind of looking at him like, Oh, I didn't know that. So wouldn't know it by looking at me probably, but yeah.

Matt: 1:07

No, what's, what's the story. What's the change in status?

Jamie: 1:10

As far as becoming a professional graduated from college went to the University of South Carolina, graduated in 2021, did five years with COVID, COVID year, extra year for year turned professional in May of 2021. So I'm just about at three straight years of about to start my fourth year of professional golf.

Matt: 1:30

Yeah, man

Chris: 1:31

already fourth year that's crazy.

Jamie: 1:32

That's crazy

Matt: 1:33

Yeah, i'm excited to hear some of the the different stories about what that what that's been like for you So I have a question. I want to I want to open it up. Yeah, let's go

Chris: 1:40

so, so I I've i've talked about this on here a little bit before that I Played college golf. I was we we grew up playing together almost every day for those of you that don't know I won probably like three times in 10 years You That's probably true because I probably remember all the times I actually beat you.

Matt: 1:59

Your college stats were a little bit different. I think

Jamie: 2:02

I will add competitively one year in our local amateur event, the rice planters amateur. I think that

Chris: 2:09

might be the only tournament I beat you in ever. That was

Jamie: 2:11

impressive. Just, I mean, not even, not even just beating me, but against the field, how well you played. That was awesome. That was, yeah, you

Matt: 2:17

were definitely on a heater that year for sure. And I had one really good summer.

Chris: 2:21

But for people like myself, and I know we have you know, some recreational high, decent recreational athletes, high school athletes, maybe even some college athletes that listen to this you know, I would love to know, like, as a pro in the past couple of years, what are like the most fun parts about it being your full time job and what are the least fun?

Jamie: 2:42

Maybe start, start with like most fun, most fun, most fun first, most fun is, I mean, it's just, you know, you chase a dream for so long and then to be living the dream. You know, on the, on the lower levels of professional golf is as not glamorous as it is, but living your dream is, is something that not a lot of people. to really say. And so just to be able to call myself of a professional golfer is pretty cool. And also being able to play golf every day really isn't that bad. It's spending eight hours a day outside playing the game I love and, and just trying to get better. It's, it's something that I've, I've grown to not take for granted as often as I might have used to.

Chris: 3:25

Yeah. And we yeah. You play some solid courses too, as your, your practice courses.

Jamie: 3:30

Yeah, I play at Bowls Bay Golf Club and Country Club at Charleston. And a little bit still at Snee Farm, actually, where Chris and I grew up playing together. Yeah, so three pretty good golf courses, I would say. Very lucky about that.

Matt: 3:42

Do you get a picture in the clubhouse yet at Sneed Farm?

Jamie: 3:45

Not a picture, no. They haven't, they haven't given me any of that, any of that kind of stuff. I do have the course record at Bulls Bay, so I've got my scorecard and my name up there. So that's pretty cool.

Matt: 3:55

It seems like Sneed Farm Have something named out or like you have to, you have to be the best player to ever have come from Snead farm, right?

Jamie: 4:02

I don't know. I mean, there were some guys back in the day that were pretty good. I think that that came out of there. I mean, Bro, they don't have anything for Brooks. Kepka, nothing in there. He played in the rice, B1, the rice planters out there back in the day. How about that? Yeah, that's true.

Matt: 4:17

Yeah. That tournament has a crazy history. Like if you look back at the field, there's some, yeah. Really good players that played in that tournament. Steve Farm.

Jamie: 4:25

Some winners like Tom Lehman, I think.

Chris: 4:27

Yeah, major champions.

Jamie: 4:28

Major champions. Crazy.

Chris: 4:30

So, so just kind of the idea of like being a pro golfer,'cause it's something like you said, you've dreamed of and obviously so many people do and so few actually get to do it. As one piece of that and then and then the second piece is like your actual day to day of like, okay My office is bowls bay right and like in april when it's been 75 degrees. It's perfect. Perfect weather all the time. Yeah Yeah, I mean, I think That's pretty sweet.

Jamie: 4:54

You asked about the bad parts.

Chris: 4:55

Yeah What what are some of the secret bad parts that the people might not appreciate?

Jamie: 4:59

well, I think I kind of look at it like Almost baseball professionally is structured almost the same way. You have the majors, which would be the PGA tour. And then you have like triple a, which would be like our corn fairy tour step below the PGA tour. I'm one below that. I'm playing these mini tour events, basically in the Southeast. I'm not flying. I don't have a caddy all the time. My girlfriend will caddy for me sometimes just for fun nights. I don't pay her, but I pro I probably should. And it's just not glamorous. I'm I'm splitting hotel rooms with guys to to afford costs. And I'm driving by myself a lot of time by myself on the road. A lot of time by myself in hotel rooms away for a lot of the year. I think I played 20 20 or 21 events last year with a few Monday qualifiers. And so, you know, that's 21 weeks out of the year that you're gone for four days, three nights in a hotel. That part, it gets a little lonely on the road. But it is good to have some guys that you're friends with on the tour that you can travel with, play practice rounds with, go out to dinner with that does help for sure.

Chris: 6:07

It's a, it's a really interesting dynamic. I'm glad you got into a little bit because this is one of the reasons I was so excited to have your experience on, because I'm in that world a little bit with tennis players and very similar level, right? Like. Not enough where, you know, financially can afford all of the things that people associate with, you know, PGA tour players or you know, top ATP WTA tour players and it is not glamorous at all. It's a struggle. The travels, one of the more difficult pieces to it. Like you said you know, I think bringing up the The interesting dynamic of like, okay, if you're in double A baseball, you still have your team there that you're traveling with. Whereas like for you, it's individual and that adds a different element to it.

Jamie: 6:52

Yeah. I like that you brought up tennis just cause it's so similar. No, people think, you know, they hear professional golfer and they immediately immediately think, oh, he's on the PGA tour. He's making a ton of money. No, I'm not. I'm definitely not. It's a, there are a lot of expenses that go into it. And the money is just not entirely there. It's all about kind of catching fire at the right time. I mean, to advance really is like Q school in the fall, but we play all year just to, you know, pay our bills and and make some sort of money and just to be, be able to be funded for Q school, which is expensive. But You know, if you, if you happen to catch fire at Q school, I mean, four, four weeks could change your life forever. And we've seen it so many times over the years. It's

Chris: 7:39

such a wild, this is the crazy, so for those of you that maybe don't, aren't into the golf world a definitely need to, we need to, yeah. Can you explain the Q school aspects?

Matt: 7:48

Yeah, in detail, like.

Jamie: 7:49

Yeah, okay. So basically, Qualifying school Q school. It's changed a little bit over the years back in the day I don't know when they stopped but it used to be straight to the pga tour getting through q school and I want to say it was like six rounds or something like that Now they've made it a lot more elaborate. It is to get well, they just changed it this year, but mainly Mainly it's to get to the corn ferry tour. So basically most guys, if it's your first year of Q school, you start out at pre qualifying the first stage, which is a three round 54 hole golf tournament, and it's like top 30 something get through. It's not difficult to get through there. Then for you, well, for me, it would be relatively,

Matt: 8:33

how many people are in that, that pre qualifying because top 30, but if there's 400 people, that's a lot different.

Jamie: 8:39

There are a lot of sites. I would have to look up the exact number of locations of Q of pre queues. There are is it top 30 from

Matt: 8:47

each site

Jamie: 8:48

from each site? Oh, okay. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a, Decent size number. I think the field for it is only like 78 or something. So, you know, it's just under half or yeah it's just under half and So if you get through that, you go to the next stage, which is first stage. It's a little confusing, but the second stage is first stage. It is a four round tournament, 72 hole golf tournament. No cut. It's just four rounds and it's usually around like top 21 or 22 from there. Same amount, same amount of guys, like 78 to 85 guys. If you get through that, you know, it's just, it's like a gauntlet. You're just going from level to level. You just, it's survive and advance. You go to second stage, which is the third stage. And so another four round 72 hole tournament, same amount. Usually it might be one or two less. It might be like top 19 or 20 and ties. It's also an ties too. So if. You have, you know, 20 guys tied for 18th place. You know, those 38, 39 guys get through, there's no playoff. So then you go to final stage and that's what matters and it can be confusing. I'm going to explain it. I'm going to condense it as much as I possibly can. Can I, can

Matt: 10:01

I ask a question before you go into final stage? So each of these, is it kind of like the sites are condensed? Like there's more sites for pre and then everyone from like a certain region would go to Like first stage is that kind of how it works? Okay. Yeah.

Jamie: 10:13

There's a lot more pre Q sites and a little bit less first stage sites, a little bit fewer first stage sites. I think second stage, I want to say there are five or six sites.

Matt: 10:22

And then for the final stages, everyone at the same, everyone

Jamie: 10:25

at the same place four rounds, if you get, so this is where the placing gets important. This last year they implemented. If you finished first through fifth, you get your PJ to work hard. Dream. Accomplished interesting dream accomplished, you know, majors straight to the majors. If you finish six through 15th, you get exempt into the first 12 events of the season on the corn ferry tour. The corn ferry tour has these reshuffles every four events, and that's very complicated, but so you're, you're guaranteed the first 12 events of the season. If you finish 16th place to 40th place and, and ties all of these also. You're guaranteed into the first eight events of the season. So for through the first two reshuffles but if you finished 41st 150 something, you get what we call a conditional status and conditional status on the core free tour. Gives you, it depends how close you finish to that top 40 number, how strong your conditional status is. Every place matters. Every place matters. Every shot. And so conditional status, you might get in. If you finished, you know, 42nd, you might get into the second or third event of the season. If you finished 120th, you might not get in until the. After the fourth, third reshuffle, you might not get into the 13th event of the season, right? So getting in with a low level status like conditional status Getting into an event and making the cut and making points getting points helps you tremendously To reshuffle back in As the season goes on to more events. Yeah, so stuff like that. It's really complicated. Yeah, it is I probably I probably didn't even explain it correctly, but that's my understanding. I think that's a really good That's my understanding from the guy who has to do it who's like life haven't been there yet So that that's problem. We'll solve when we get wait. So what's

Matt: 12:22

the yeah, what's what's kind of the best? You've done in that situation. Like, have you, I'm assuming you've gone every year. So I've gone,

Jamie: 12:29

yeah, three times. My first year I made it through pre Q through first stage into second stage. And I missed getting to final stage by one shot. And that one shot could have been any shot. That's why it's just crazy how, how fine the line is. And then the last two years I've been really close at first stage. But miss getting to second stage, both of the last two years.

Chris: 12:52

Yeah, there, so I, I knew that and I want to like, I want to actually spend a second to like, appreciate the, for people out there that aren't living this, to appreciate the challenge of this, like this is your Superbowl. Right. Like you get one chance at it per year. Everyone circles it and you you said it a little bit earlier of like the unique thing about This sport and especially making it like getting to the to the major leagues is you have to peak at the right time that's yeah, and and that's the part that's just so it can be great and it can't suck because You know that that just adds can you talk to like the amount of like what that does from a pressure element?

Jamie: 13:35

The pressure at Q school is it's unlike anything I'll ever experience. I mean, I thought I knew pressure in junior golf and then amateur golf and then high level college golf. But I mean, Q school and professional golf. I heard from somebody one time that you've never Been in a quieter place than on the range at second stage the last day because it's the last day to get your card If you get the final stage, you get your card. You get some conditionals So it's you know, everybody locked in and focus on that range before the last day And I've been there my first year. I was there I was you know in eighth place and I'm sitting there on the range. I was like, yeah, it's that's about right Nobody was talking to each other and they were locked in The pressure is incredible because it's not just about a dream. It's, it's also simply from a job standpoint, it's, it's your job. Getting your card means, you know, especially if you, you know, go to final stage and play well, you can set your schedule for the year. It helps with, with sponsorships. It helps with, you know, I mean, it can change your life, especially for the guys that are, that are older, you know, with families. And, you know, I see a bunch of guys with, with wives and kids that are still playing on many tours and. They have a family to support, and if they don't get through Q school, you know, you have a whole nother year of, of waiting just to get back to a chance to get a better job and, and job, I say, I mean, career, I guess, but yeah, it just, it means so much and the pressure is, it's unbelievable.

Chris: 15:07

It's, it's something that I speak to with people as I'm like, there is no more pressure than that stage. Because once you make it to even the corn a little bit corn fairy or the obvious of the PGA Even if you like lose your card, you've probably made like a million dollars. Yeah You know if you're seeing thing with like in tennis in and so it's That to me is actually way more pressure people like oh, you're never gonna have more pressure than like final round of the Masters But like if you choke in the final round of the Masters, you still bring home a million dollar paycheck for that week You And you playing in the mass, you know, like there's, you're still like fine from a lifestyle perspective, this is like real life situations in like, like you said, it can be life altering. And so I'm like this, yes, I'm sure there's a lot of pressure to find around the masters and things like that. But to me, this is actually significantly more.

Jamie: 16:05

Yeah. It's, I mean, I want to win out there. You know, I play to win. But at the same time, you got to, you got to keep, you know, a level head and, and all of it in perspective, because if you're in the final round of the masters and you finish second or even tied for 18th, You're playing on the PGA tour full time, you're playing in the majors and you just made a lot of money and you're, you're fine like it's the Q school pressure is, is really high and a lot of people talk about it, that it's, it's the highest form of pressure that they've had in their careers. I like what you said about people making it because you can make it and get comfortable out there a lot easier than somebody who. Monday qualifies into a PGA tour event and they need to make the cut to make a big paycheck because it's like their dream chance that they got through and and into the event and they can make a lot of money or advance into the next week. So when you have a lot to lose, it's, it's, or I guess nothing to lose. It's almost more pressure than some guy who's been out there on the PGA tour and it's pretty comfortable.

Matt: 17:12

I have two questions. Sure. Can you walk us through that last round of the the second stage like a Moment you remember or like a specific hole That you feel like to find that round

Jamie: 17:29

Yeah, I mean that I was playing Okay on nine down at Fort Lauderdale's where I was and on nine I had 100 yards to a green with a lot of a lot of water around it And I hit it what I thought into a 20 mile an hour wind. So it was playing difficult and I hit it. What I thought was a great shot and it bounced once into the water. So I made a double bogey and then, you know, I kind of went into a little bit of a mental freak out and then they called it for a rain delay. And so I had to go right after that, right after that. So I had to go sit in the clubhouse with a buddy of mine, Jarrett Swan. We were both there and we're sitting in the clubhouse and I'm just. reeling in my head. Like what just happened? I was doing fine and just hit a pretty not difficult shot. Did something really dumb. And here I am now outside the number and really struggling. After the rain delay, I told myself that, you know, you can go out there and not try or you can go out there and get this thing back. And I made three birdies on the back up until 18. And I was, at that time, on the number, so I had a chance, 18's par 5, and drove it in the water. Hit, dropped, hit the third shot, fourth shot over the green, and I was on the back fringe for par, and I knew I was on the number, and I made, like, a 50 footer for par. You made it? I made it. I went nuts. There were still a few groups behind us and I guess a couple guys birdie and push the number up one after I finished. Wow. So it was a rollercoaster of emotions. You know, you know, big Mike, Mike Visaki, the the guy that played with Justin Thomas and who Justin Thomas like supported a bunch of, they became good friends. Well, I played with him three of the days and he hadn't gotten his card before on the last hole. He hit his second shot to the water. He was one ahead of me. His fourth shot, a really hard shot to like six feet and save the par to get his card and it got super emotional. It was just so cool to watch. It was, you know, I got to see firsthand just like the emotions of, of Q school and what it meant to him. And the guy couldn't be a nicer guy. It's not a nicer guy in the world. It's just to have that happen to him. And for me, and I missed by one, but to be able to watch that was really cool. It's really cool. Yeah,

Chris: 19:58

that's a, that's an experience. Like, and this is obviously like my outside perspective, but like if nothing else, it's like that man in the arena quote, like that wasn't like Teddy Roosevelt's quote, it's like, you, it's probably even hard to describe how like the, the pressure and of that, of that moment, the emotions of the moment, the, the nerves of that day, like, that's just something you can't really like, I feel like you can't prepare for until you experience it. Absolutely.

Jamie: 20:28

And it almost takes experiencing it more than once. Yeah, I've been through it. I went through it that one time and I was, I honestly credit getting so close to being just a naive, fresh out of college kid and not really understanding that like, Hey, this is, this is a big time moment that you're in right now, your first year out. I didn't really understand it. And I was just like, we're just playing golf, man. You know, I'm, I'm 22, 23 years old. I'm, I've got a big career ahead of me. I almost credit just my airheadedness and not really understanding it to A little bit of a reason why I think the last couple years I might have let it get into my head a little bit but you know, i'm not afraid to admit that and I credit I credit my first year q school success quote unquote relative. So a little bit of that.

Chris: 21:17

Yeah experience being that double edged sword of It can be really helpful or in some cases not so much not so much.

Matt: 21:25

Well, it's interesting because in the I'm going to take it to running just because that's why I know best, but he just ran Boston by the way. So yeah, I forgot to ask him. How was that? Awesome. It's hard. Yeah. Training in South Carolina is difficult to prepare your, your quads for the absolute gauntlet of rolling hills and downhills at Boston. So it's a little

Jamie: 21:43

flat where we live. Yeah. So definitely would,

Matt: 21:47

Probably do things a little differently if I go back, which hopefully I will in the future. That's awesome. I have no idea what was I talking about? You were comparing it to running. Oh yeah, so they talked about that in the marathon. For the marathon trials to make the Olympic team, you can qualify by running the half. So some of the people in the marathon trials have actually never run the full marathon before. And in the last two olympic trials people who had never run a full marathon before made the team And afterwards they interviewed them and they're like, yeah, I just they're like, I don't know what running a marathon's like So I just kind of went for it. It's like that they talk about that That naive attitude almost Helps them because they they're like, you're talking about now, now, you know, like you have some of that fear, some past experiences, some scars that, that kind of influence your judgments or influence your perception of how things are going, or even influence how you feel going into it.

Chris: 22:39

I think you can also appreciate how difficult it actually is.

Matt: 22:42

Right, exactly.

Jamie: 22:43

Right. Yeah, I definitely gathered that from my first experience. I was just like, Hey, You know, pat yourself on the back. This thing's pretty hard. It's hard. These guys are good. There are guys that you've heard of, but there's 10 for everyone. You've heard of there's 10. You've never heard of that are just as good. I mean, it's golf has become massive and I think with technology and everything nowadays that everybody's just getting better younger and it's pretty amazing how many incredible golfers there are out there.

Matt: 23:13

This is a great segue into one of the questions. I was most curious about. So actually David Epstein, funny enough, his newsletter this week was about Caitlin Clark and how she didn't specialize as a kid. And that's what his book range kind of talked about as having that range of experiences growing up. I don't know all of your stories, so I am curious. I feel like I saw you at the golf course a lot from a very young age. Yeah. You know, when I was losing most of my balls in the water and but. Talk a little bit about what that was like, like when you started playing pretty competitively, did you play other sports or was golf kind of your main thing and what, like, what kind of drew you to golf, what kind of shaped your work ethic? I'm just curious what that looked like for you.

Jamie: 23:58

I think my work ethic before I kind of started as my, on my origin story, I think the worth work ethic came from just loving it. And I think that's just so important. I think that's one part of it. And another part of it was that I wanted to beat Chris every single day of my life and not just Chris, we had another kid, Ethan and another kid, Wilson. It was us four who all went on to play college golf. And I credit those days with those three guys, us four doing putting competitions, playing holes every single day and wanting to just beat them all the time and not just me beat them, but they wanted to beat me and each other. I credit that as to why we were all really successful with golf because we just loved the competition side and just loved playing it and getting better. I think I didn't really my work ethic didn't really come from you know These are my goals or something like that. It wasn't really goal oriented It was just more of a fun Thing for me to do with friends where my competitive edge came out and I realized I was pretty good at it Yeah, it's it's really

Chris: 25:10

Me This is a really cool part of, I think both of our stories is like that. It's, I don't think I appreciated how unique that is that we had. We were just like, all right, after school, what are we doing? And I tell people this, I'm like. My parents just dropped me off at the golf course at three and we just stayed there until it got dark every day.

Jamie: 25:27

We would stay there and they wouldn't have to pick me up. Cause we would, I'd play, I lived on hole 13. I'd play 10, 10, 11, and 12 back to my house. And it was, I mean, my mom would have to scrape me off the golf course back when we were kids. We'd go out to the 12th green behind Wilson's house in my house. And we would just. Bunker shots and practice short game and putting and anything we could do on the golf course while the while the Sun was still near It's unbelievable

Chris: 25:54

It's wild because I've been working in an Academy environment tennis Academy environment a couple other environments Well, I'm just like so surprised. I'm like, they're like when's practice over and I'm like This is so different than what we had like way different and I'm like, oh It's kind of hard saying, but I'm like, you have no chance if that's your mentality, right? Like you, I mean, sure you can maybe get to a certain level or whatever, but you're not going to like last long term. If you're like wanting to just check this off your list. Because we've as we've talked about like it's so difficult. There's so many challenges But there's also so much like so many great things about it and no one told us to be out there No one told us how long to practice. We had absolutely no like practice regimen or guidance or whatever We just played and like hit shots and played holes and just enjoyed being out there And that's like one of the great I'd like it's I look back on it. I'm like that is I looked I just look back on that time of our lives. It's like so fondly because I just I don't I don't think I appreciate how rare that

Jamie: 27:00

is. It's very rare Yeah, I would characterize myself as a little bit of a art form type of player rather than as much like practice structure And everything I kind of just You know have my own special way of playing golf a lot of people, you know Do these drills rigorous drills and everything mine growing up? We did not do drills We did competitions and you know who can hit it the furthest who can put the most Backspin on this golf ball who can make the longest putt? Yeah, just crazy shots. And it, you know, developed, developed our games into, you know, muscle memory almost. And I think we all kind of built our golf games that way. I didn't really do much drill in much drilling and practice until College probably, I mean, I didn't even high school, we were just messing around and we would just play golf because we loved it and we loved to play the most. We didn't hit golf balls on the range. It was very often, not much grinding on the rain.

Chris: 27:57

I was really like trying to hit the cart pickers, right? We

Matt: 27:59

were playing for a score and trying to beat each other, which kind of goes back to something. Chris talks about a lot of like feel versus technique. Like, how do you teach a skill? Do you teach a feeling or do you teach a technique and technique is much more prone to and high pressure because you're, you have to think more about technique versus feeling is just like something that happens more automatically. So I think that's interesting to hear you say that is, is like your foundation of how you grew up thinking about hitting a golf ball, thinking about hitting different shots was much more of a, A feel type of thing.

Jamie: 28:35

Yeah, I like how you said that because in a high pressure situation I've become a lot more technical now I think I think that's your problem. I get back to the feel man We've actually just go back to not really practicing with drills or anything start hitting flop shots I think it's, I think it's been really helpful in, in the long run to get more technical. But mentally in a high pressure situation, I think what you said, thinking about, you know, what do you have to do with the golf club, you know, and all these different things. Thoughts creep into your head and take your mind off the goal of I got to hit this ball to this spot And I've done it a million times. I've got to hit this six foot putt. I've done this a million times I've made a million of these and I think if you make it a lot more simple and just Kind of take your mind away from the technical side of it and do more It's just so much easier to clear your head that way. I find myself in pressure situations, just getting up there and telling myself, you've done this a million times and not thinking technical at all. And it's helped.

Chris: 29:47

That's amazing. I love that advice because that's a technique I used to, I remember like, whether it was a putt or a free throw, like under pressure, I was like, dude, I've literally made this millions of times. This is so easy, you know, and like, yeah, it just relaxed me for whatever reason. It's like kind of does a similar thing for you.

Jamie: 30:04

Absolutely. Once, I mean, one story that I have from college where that thought, literally I said it out loud to myself was we were playing apples Bay and the hoodie and the college event and I was playing well, I think I was in like third place. I think the team was up. We were winning by two and I was the last guy on the golf course. It was windy, it was cold and the greens were really fast. I had 30 feet for birdie. All I had to do was make a bogey and we still would have won. Well, I hit it like five feet by from 30 feet, just adrenaline, I guess. And I had this like four and a half five footer down the hill downwind and I remember I was behind the ball And I was super nervous and I was telling myself. Oh my gosh, if you putt this thing and miss it It's gonna go 12 feet by You might you might just throw this whole thing out the window But I recall really vividly my last thought and I think I said it out loud walking into the ball Was that you've hit a million of these putts in your life. Just hit it And I'd made it dead center and I think That was that was one of the coolest moments I had in college where you practice at home for so long for those situations And to be able to trust my work at home in a high pressure situation and just have fun with it I think that was really cool to see it work So that was a

Matt: 31:27

cool thing about golf. That's so Golf and tennis I think especially because they're individual sports for the most part You're just kind of out and there's so much time between You points, especially in golf. So many, so much time between shots. So you're really kind of going back and forth with yourself mentally. And so there's so much of that, like in soccer, I'm thinking about soccer. It's like you make a bad play, but you're still having to get back on defense. You know, the game's still going on. So it's a little easier to let that stuff just kind of roll off your back, but you hit a bad shot in golf and you have to go walk to wherever you hit the ball, you know, like

Jamie: 31:59

to go like, look forward and you're like, it's you, you and your thoughts for 90 seconds or even, I mean, it might even be six minutes, five minutes if you're looking and waiting on other guys to hit. Yeah. I mean, it's

Matt: 32:11

so unique in that, in that respect. So I think there's such a. A difference between people who are really good mentally in golf and people who really struggle. Whereas in some other sports, I feel like you can get away with being more average mentally, but even hearing you talk so far, it's like, you really gotta be pretty, pretty with it, with your mental game to make it far in golf. It seems like

Jamie: 32:33

a lot, a lot of golf has become, I mean, it's always been mental, but I think even more like you're seeing Wyndham Clark hired a mental coach and his successes that you've seen Winning the US Open. I think, I think it's so important because not everybody is just Who not everybody who plays golf has a really good mental game. You can be good at golf and have a terrible, terrible mental game. I used to be that guy, I would, I wasn't gonna bring it up. I would I would get angry on the golf course. I would get furious, I'd get sad. I, I let those, and, and so many times my parents or coaches would tell me, you're letting your emotions dictate what you're doing. And I didn't believe him. I was hard headed. I was a kid. It's fine. As I got into college around really high level players, I realized, How important it is to keep your mental game in check because it really does affect performance and It's something I've been working on since college. I I had a I had a sports psych in college that I saw fairly regularly We did, you know mental assessments and and all that good stuff and it really did help me and Help me calm down out there. It's less stressful out there now than it used to be for me as a kid, throwing clubs and screaming in anger. But yeah, and, and I think I think it's just really important part for, for consistent performance.

Chris: 34:00

You've definitely come a long way with that because we there's some, there's some classic stories of there was a kid. That I saw throw a tennis rack and got stuck in a tree. And I, I instantly reminded me of 15, 15 at Snee Farm. Getting your glove. I'm trying to get your glove out of the tree, throwing stuff at it, trying to get it

Jamie: 34:20

down. The best part was the assortment of, of sporting equipment that we threw at this golf club, trying to get it out of the tree. I think, so I threw my driver in the tree, in this tree, right on the tee box, and it gets stuck up in this tree. And I tried to throw another club and it might have gotten stuck. I think the second club, and then I think we got a basketball or a football from my house down the street. It was just, it was, it became funny at the time. It wasn't funny because I was mad when it got stuck. I was a kid and I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, my parents are going to kill me. That's my most expensive club. They just, they just bought me these clubs. I've got the driver stuck in a tree and now my six iron stuck in a tree. Yeah, just, yeah. Yeah. That's a great story. That's a funny one. We had, we had some funny ones. I think another one was Ethan in the creek on one with his shirt off and just didn't even hit the ball and just splattered mud all over himself. Just stuff like that. We were kids. It's hilarious with no supervision, no supervision,

Chris: 35:18

incredible.

Jamie: 35:19

And I think my mom said this before. The cool part is like, It's really cool to have a sport like golf that we played. She would always say golf's your babysitter because we learned so many things out there, you know, etiquette keeping a cool head. We learned how to be respectful of one another, you know, shake hands after the rounds stuff, the kind of life lessons that golf teaches you that we learned at a young age without parental supervision. We learned it on our own. She used to always say, yeah, golf's your babysitter.

Chris: 35:48

Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great point. Yeah. Yeah, man, we could go, we could go on stories all day. I, I

Jamie: 35:55

didn't talk about how I got into golf. Like he asked 10 minutes ago should I, should I do that? Should I start?

Matt: 36:02

Well, I think you I think you touched on childhood. You loved it, right? You at some point

Chris: 36:06

you

Matt: 36:07

I was just curious It seemed like you you can answer just yes or no It's it seemed like you specialized pretty early in playing golf like you didn't play a ton of other things ramp. Is that correct?

Jamie: 36:15

That's

Matt: 36:15

correct.

Jamie: 36:16

I played I mean I kind of went around the wheel I played I played soccer They thought I was gonna play soccer and then I was two years old and I tripped on a soccer ball and broke my leg So soccer soccer was done at two. I don't know how they thought I was gonna be really good at soccer when I was two I don't know how you could tell but But no, my mom used to say I would My dad would put golf on the TV and I'd watch the ball I'd go up to the TV and point out at my finger and follow the ball and then say it's in the hole and then So they got me plastic clubs started hitting him around my house swinging them around the house First golf lesson was at four and the woman instructor told my mom I Does he play any other sports? And she said, he's going to start playing tennis. She said, no, get him to stick to golf. I played basketball and football too. I, you're a decent athlete. I'll give you credit. I was better at football and basketball. I was terrible at basketball. Still am. But yeah, I played probably mainly those, those. Well, soccer doesn't really count. So for sports I played tennis for a long time. I liked the individual aspect. I wasn't a big, I wasn't big on, on team sports. You don't like to rely on other people. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right.

Matt: 37:26

Well, it is, I think it's just good to contrast, right? There's always a benefit in other sports to playing other sports. But then if I was to pick one sport, we're having a lot of time playing early. It seems like golf and tennis can be helpful. Obviously tennis is more movement or the golf is so static, right? So there's not as much benefit to like, Oh, I can kick a soccer ball. Or I have really, you know, in Tennessee, you need really good movement and lateral skills. And it's like, Oh, if I play soccer, but so it's always good. I think to think of no rule holds a hundred percent of the time, like range talks about, yeah, it's great to have a range of experiences, but also at the same time, there are a ton of people that do really well specializing early. And I think you hit on probably the main thing that separates those two, which is you loved it from an early age. No one was ever forcing you to do that. And I think if I had to say one thing that probably separates people that Do well if they specialize from an early age is probably that self directed Passion to do the thing like no one's forced. Like you said, no one's forcing you to practice It's not like you have a practice time. You're like, oh, thank goodness. It's five. I get to leave So that's one thing I hear in your story that I think Really? Yeah, that's the

Chris: 38:34

unique probably saving grace aspect of the specialization Because that's that's one of the harmful effects right is like potential harmful effects You Is it like almost starts to be feel like a job right and that just that yeah, that wasn't really the case at all

Jamie: 38:49

Yeah, it's hard to it's hard to look at it like that and really compete at a high level, right? So it's as long as you love it I mean if you if you don't ever really see the downside of getting better at your dream I mean, if you look at it like a job, Oh, I have to do this for this tournament coming up. I have to put in this, this amount of hours and do these drills. If you're, if you start telling yourself, I get to do that. I get to spend the day at the golf course every single day for my whole life. And you know, it's, it's just way more of a better way to look at it, but much better way to look at it.

Chris: 39:23

Well, cool. I, I want to shift. I just have a quick, I want to you to get into one of your stories. Cause it's a, it's a really I want to hear more about it. Cause I talked to you a little bit about initially what happened, but so you did us open qualifying for last year's us open for last year. Yeah. Tell us about that. Cause it was National news sort of, at least sort of golf world. Yeah.

Jamie: 39:45

So us open qualifying, you have to do, you have to do local qualifying while most people in my situation, PGA tour guys don't, that aren't in anyways, I have to do local qualifying, which is an 18 hole qualifier. And that gets you into sectional qualifying, which is, they call it quote unquote, the longest day in golf, because it is a 36 hole qualifier in one day. And if you get one of the spots that they have five or six, usually you're in the U S open, which is, you know, our country's open. It's grandest stage, all that. So I get through local qualifying last year for the first time ever. And I went to sectionals at old Chatham golf club in Durham, North Carolina, and first round in the morning, I missed a lot of putts. I shot even par and it was almost like. Again, I had nothing to lose. I was way out of the number. I had a quick lunch. I went out to the putting green. I figured something out on the putting green. I went out and on the front nine, I was eight under through nine holes. I was actually nine under through ten. Had a bunch of the the membership start following me when they caught wind And I birdied I started on the back. So we went to oh, no, I didn't I started on the front. And so 10 I birdied And I birdied 14. So i'm 10 under through 14 and the number was 11 under at the end it ended up being 11 under so I kept pushing And that's the hardest thing to do in golf is when you start to go super low. It's hard to not want to protect where you are Mentally, it's hard to keep pushing That's kind of something that I've had to learn is like, you know If you get off to a really hot start you want to keep it going you're swinging it. Well, you can trust it Not oh my gosh. What if I mess up? I don't want to lose this You know And I felt proud of myself because I held on to it, but I was still hitting really aggressive golf shots I just missed a couple putts coming in and the last hole. I knew I had to make birdie but I Probably got a little too aggressive because I missed it I wanted to it didn't work out, but that's, that's golf. And it was just a fun, really fun afternoon. It was, it was crazy. It was a lot of fun.

Chris: 42:06

So this is, this was funny because I I'm not really on social media a ton, but I have Twitter and I, you know, I follow up like a few golf accounts and I'm just scrolling through Twitter and it's like golf's longest day. So they have like, you know, random updates from across the country and like multiple, the accounts I follow, like tweet out the scorecard and it's like, You know, all the circles for the birdies and I'm looking, I'm like, Oh, that's crazy. And then I like click on it and I'm like, my God, it's Jamie's like, what in the world? And it's just this ridiculous scorecard of nine birdies through dentals. It was like, Oh my gosh, dude, what is

Jamie: 42:39

happening? Yeah. I missed like a seven footer on five for birdie and made par and I was looking back. That was it would have been, would have been pretty cool to be 10 through 10. Yeah. Yeah. Afterwards, looking back, I was like, gosh, I wish I birdied five What was, what was go,

Matt: 42:54

I,

Jamie: 42:54

yeah. What, what does feel, feel like? I'm not Yeah, I was about, say, I

Matt: 42:56

was about, say, I don't think I've ever had a moment in my sporting career where I've been in that kind of flow state. So I'm just curious, like, as you reflected on that, obviously you're probably like, I did the same thing I've always done, but I'm just like, what was going through your head as you reflect on that front nine?

Jamie: 43:13

It was really. It was really strange. So one easy hole, birdied it. Two made a long putt, three hit a wedge close, made the putt. You know, I'm 300 through three four. I hit a great shot and made a putt. So I'm like, oh my gosh, 400 through four. Like crazy but I'm still way outside the number. Yeah, I needed a miracle. I mean, and in the end I had to shoot 61 to even get into a playoff. So I knew you shot what, 62? I bogeyed 18 when I got arrested, so I shot 63. But, you know, it, it, it's kind of like a staying present type of thing. Because I was so far back that I wasn't like, oh my gosh, here comes my run. I'm going to charge at this thing. It was like, who cares? I'm only, I'm still six out of this thing. And then, you know, they kept adding on and all of a sudden I birdied nine to be shoot 28 on the front. And then I thought, okay, well, I'm actually right back in this thing. And you know, I mean, making the one on 10 was a bonus. I didn't birdie the par 5 11. I knew 14 was almost guarantee birdie. That was, it's like a driver, eight iron par five. I remember making birdie there and yeah, I mean, it was almost just so shocking those first 10 holes that I wasn't really thinking about how good it was, I was almost just thinking like. This is crazy. I was just kind of in shock. But I never, there was never a moment where I really thought, Oh, I've got this. It was almost like a coming from behind mental aspect, which I enjoy. People ask me all the time, like I'd rather, I'd rather be two back going into the final round of a tournament or one back than one ahead because I like to chase, I like to be able to put the pressure on. And go out there and swing free instead of holding on to a round and that's just that's just me personally I you know, I think that's a little bit why I played well I found something and and just started making birdies because I could and it didn't really matter if it went south I could just be aggressive and I stayed aggressive and it got crazy. It got ridiculous and that was it was just a ton of fun It was fun having the membership out there. We had like 20 guys out there that were walking with me and They still they still talk to me on instagram and stuff and invite me back to the course to come play whenever i'm in town so that's really cool. They were super super fun to have out there with me

Matt: 45:37

so I have a follow up question, there's this quote that I love and it's A guy and he was taught he's a high level athlete and he says whenever I go into a race I have the thought of be prepared for wild success So his part of his mental preparation is being prepared for You Basically the most outstanding performance you could possibly imagine. I love that. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm curious as you reflect on that, if you think that not having, you know, Chris talks about this with his tennis players for when they start losing, because you see people start losing and they lose their mind. And Chris always, when we're watching on TV, he always goes, have they never, have they never considered the possibility that they might start losing in a match? It's like, they've never thought that. So I, my follow up question is. I'm just curious if you think that not having ever thought that was possible

Chris: 46:30

was like a barrier barrier. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: 46:31

Like barrier made it, made the back nine harder because you were so caught off guard. Or if you feel like it didn't really affect, like, I'm just curious. That's a

Jamie: 46:39

great question. And yeah, I, I do, I do think that I like it's, it's really difficult just thinking about it now to be prepared for like the craziest thing on a golf course would be. You know, birdie 18 holes that's never been done ever. And it's like that could happen. It's, it's physically possible. And so, yeah, I mean, I think it was probably a barrier. It put a limit on what I thought I could do. Subconsciously It probably was a barrier in the end because I was caught so off guard like you said and you know, I stopped I might have stopped really like being super aggressive or or I was almost satisfied with where I was and Yeah, I could definitely see that as a barrier I like what you said about Chris talking about your tennis players when they start losing they lose it bad because Something that I've gotten I've been good at since since college and professionals like if it starts going sideways for some reason I start playing My best golf of the week whenever it goes sideways and it's almost like a I start losing So what do I have to lose like let's get this thing back It's almost like I'm on autopilot and something shocking kind of wakes me up and then I start playing really well It's almost like a Never stop fighting mentality. Right. And I think it's harder once you have so much early success, you get freaked out and it's, it's easy to stop fighting because you're like, what just happened? Yeah, I think that definitely could have been a barrier. If you look at my scorecard, it was a barrier because I made nine birdies and 10 holes and then one on 14 pars all the way in until the bogey on 18. Yeah, you get on

Chris: 48:25

the last eight. Yeah, that's interesting. I think you, you talked about something that. Is a very common experience amongst really high level athletes is like, you talked about liking the chase and I think, I think that's more natural than the other way around and that's why people marveled at Tiger Woods for so long because he was the one guy that like actually could close the lead every time. Every time. Cause it's so rare and the, yeah, I mean that, that shift, that psychological shift, this is why I love like what I do. It's just, I'm just so fascinated by it because it's like, if you think about it, like nothing changes. Literally, like if you, no, if you think about like if you're playing the 13th hole at 10 under or two under, you're still playing the 13th hole. Right? Right. And like, but it's like psychologically it feels so different. So different. And that, yeah, that ability to like manipulate that is really difficult. Also, like to compare it to you, you brought up Matthew that. You know, how, how do you not, how do you have, you never prepared for like being down? Like, how does this freak you out the same, you know, we do the same preparation of like, if someone's playing someone really good of like, okay, you win the first set and you're up in the second set. What are you going to do? Right. How are you going to, what is your mindset going to be in that moment? Because we need to prepare for that too, because if you're not ready, you see this all the time in sports, the underdog team gets off to a great start. You've seen a March a lot. And then they're like, Oh, the pressure's on us now, you know? And then, and then they crumble the other team kind of like, you know, gathers and you see that pattern a lot. And it's all just the framing of the situation. It's just so fascinating. I don't really have like an. Answer to I mean I could go more in depth but it's just like crazy to hear that experience like in you know at your level in the In that environment. It's really cool.

Jamie: 50:11

Yeah. No, I agree. Like you you see the underdog team or a player, you know, they get They get freaked out by the top dog. In golf, it's like, you know, you enter a tournament, you see these names and it's easy to just look at the names and be like, Oh, they're really good, but you can't focus on that. You need to, you need to do it's, it's all about controlling your controllables. I think that's something in golf. That's really important. If you do get off to a really hot start, like I did I think something I let into my mind was what if I do get into the U S open? Oh my gosh, I didn't think this was feasible three and a half hours ago. And now here I am with a chance because something crazy happened. I think, yeah, preparing mentally, that's, that's really important, especially in a game that's so mental like golf is you just got to control your controllables. Obviously you're swinging it great. You should just keep doing what you're doing and control what you can control. And wherever that ball goes,

Matt: 51:01

that ball goes. Yeah. I think staying present is really hard. It almost, the situation you described playing that second 18 is almost like running a marathon, right? It's like. You were so far behind you had so much golf to play. You're so far behind You're just like it's impossible not to look ahead of like I would have to do this So like it's the same in the marathon of like you get 10 miles in you're not even halfway Right, like you're it's just so you you have to try so hard to stay present And it's so easy to just make one little mistake like you're talking especially when the margins get so fine at the level you're at Where you lose that present focus for one shot, you hit one bad shot. And then that's the one, you know, that's, that's such a fine margin.

Jamie: 51:44

Oh my gosh. You see it happen. It seems like every week on the PJ tour, just somebody hits one bad shot and then it gets in their head. They just let it to their head. They think, what if I lose? What if I win? It's, it's both sides of the spectrum there mentally. It's like. You could think, way in the future, what if you win, what will it do? You could think, way in the future, what if I tank and lose it? What's everyone going to think, you know? You can, like you kind of talked about earlier, between shots, that can happen a lot. Those thoughts creep in. It's just really easy to let that happen in golf because it's all eyes on you. And it's a really hard game. To begin with but I think staying present and focusing on just the shot at hand is so important that people say oldest saying in golf is one shot at a time. And it's just so true because you can add them up at the end. But if you put all of your effort into the one shot you have right in front of you, and don't worry about anything else, blinders on, it's probably going to work out pretty well. And if it doesn't, you did what you were supposed to do and what you could do.

Matt: 52:50

So I know we have a couple of minutes left, so I'm just, if you have anything specific you want to talk about, I want to give you time to do that. But also I just want to hear kind of what your plans are upcoming. What does your schedule look like? What are your. Okay. Kind of goals or big things on the calendar for the next couple months

Jamie: 53:08

I've got I play on a mini tour called the G pro tour. It's probably like the best or second best mini tour in the country Just because our competition is amazing and and the guy that runs it Gary runs, you know runs it so well I have three of those events in May. I actually have u. s. Open local qualifying on Thursday Like this Thursday. I was say, I knew it. I knew it. Tomorrow. Leave tomorrow. Yeah. Where? Where's it at? Where's it at? At Columbia Country Club. It's, I only played there three times a week in college for five years. I was gonna say that. I was gonna say, yeah, I know it pretty well.

Matt: 53:40

Do you think that will be an advantage or, or neutral? Yes and

Jamie: 53:43

no. I've actually, I mean, I've done it three times there and not gotten through I usually play pretty well there. We have a GPRO event there and I've played well there the last couple years. Yeah, for some reason it's. In locals, I just can't do it. I couldn't do it, but I mean, this year I'm going to, I'm going to crush it because I just, for some reason I always play well there. I've been close. I've gone to playoffs two years in locals, but

Chris: 54:05

yeah. I just want people to appreciate the mental gymnastics that this game, like what just went through your mind in that, like, 30 seconds is the life of a pro athlete. Like that is like, God, I mean, I always play the way I do play well there, but I can't do it. I never made it through, but I'm

Jamie: 54:20

going to do it this time. Right. Yeah.

N/a: 54:22

Really being some pro athletes can be so fun. Yeah. And

Jamie: 54:25

then you're, you're setting schedules and you're like, Oh, I like that course. Oh, I don't like that course. Oh, I play well there. I played well there that one time. Yeah, no, it's and then a couple Monday qualifiers for the corner ferry tour, just basically 18 hole shootout. And top usually four or five get through and get to play that week. So I just played my first one of the year was in Savannah. I lost in a playoff. So that was tough, but I know I played well. I play well, all 18 holes and got through it. So I did, I Monday last year, I got through one Monday qualifier. They're really hard you just have to go out

Matt: 54:59

there

Jamie: 54:59

and I'll say

Matt: 55:00

people don't and if you don't follow golf you want these People shoot like six Henry. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say nine ten under to make the playoff It's insane

Jamie: 55:07

one of my college teammates who's really good player now Ryan Hall. He's on the corn ferry tour He told me last year that if he if you go to every Monday qualifier and shoot seven under par That's probably either gonna get you in or at worse in a playoff So usually seven under is kind of the number I like to think of You Like if you shoot seven, you've got a very good chance pretty much every time Six is iffy like I shot six in Savannah. I was in a playoff so Yeah, like you said life of pro golfer, yeah even more so it's even like tennis so low you let your mind reel It's crazy, but it's just so rewarding just all the things that golf's given me over the years good, good life lessons and pressure lessons, you know, good for my, for my head, psychologically it's just been, it's been so awesome and it's just given me so much, I'm really thankful for that. Well,

Matt: 56:04

I know I've enjoyed this conversation. I'm sure Chris has.

Chris: 56:06

This is, this is one of my personal favorites. It's just I think, I think this is brilliant for a lot of people out there. And whether you know, if you're an athlete, it's, there's a lot of insight. If you're not, I think it gives you a lot of, hopefully some appreciation for, you know, the pros and cons of what pro athletes go, go through, especially golf. Yeah, I think that was that was awesome. Yes, man. Thanks for being on. Thanks for having

Matt: 56:28

me glad to do it It's a lot of fun. Well, hope you guys enjoy this episode and

Chris: 56:32

go follow him on instagram Oh, yeah, and what's

Jamie: 56:34

your in your youtube thing? Jamie wilson one underscore is my instagram at jamie wilson one underscore If you want to follow me Wait, well

Matt: 56:45

good luck in qualifying for the s open and I appreciate it. Hopefully we'll have you back soon when you're In the U S open, that's right. See you guys.