Why You Suck at Listening

In this episode we take a deep dive into the most common mistakes people make when listening and communicating. Chris gives detailed examples of how to become more aware of these pitfalls in listening and practical advice for how to become a better communicator.  

Transcript

Chris: 0:00

one of my friends from grad school had a really funny summary of it. He's like, basically counseling is just, Getting people to think that they came up with the conclusion that you came up with. anywhere that you have a statement in your head that says, I just change it to you. And that will fundamentally change the way you hear people. I mean listening Is exhausting? It really is if you are truly listening It's so cognitively fatiguing Welcome in to the backseat driver podcast everyone today we are What we're going to talk about is actually kind of the heart of this podcast. We had a interest we had an experience last weekend where The title is obviously the backseat driver and we took a trip to raleigh, north carolina, which is about four hours from charleston And had four hours on the way up four. I was on my backside, eight hours total of backseat driver conversations. And this was one that kind of naturally came up. And so I feel like today is genuinely the heart of our podcast.

Matt: 1:15

This is like the, the long drive number two, but real life. I thought about, we're not going to title it that, but I thought about trying to record in the car because I knew we were going to have a good conversation. It's just too difficult.

Chris: 1:26

I also had that thought. I was like, we should just record this conversation. But we're going to try to bring it to you guys. Uh, I certainly learned a lot from Matthew and I think vice versa as well. It's today's topic is going to be kind of on communication and listening. And I know Matthew's been doing some reading on this topic. This is obviously a, um, a topic that is close to my heart, to my job and what I do on a daily basis, but I think also for every single job, it's absolutely the foundation of, of what we do. Whether that's in writing, speaking, nonverbal community, I mean, everything in our world is related to communication in some aspect. And so, um, you know, whatever you do, hopefully something from today will, you'll, you'll get something out of it. And that's our goal for it. So.

Matt: 2:18

And to piggyback off that really in every job, but also every kind of friendship or relationship, it's really undergirded by communication, how you communicate, how you understand, how you learn. And the conversation I had yesterday, even I was at a brewery with a couple of friends and. We were having this discussion where we had very different viewpoints and part of communication is learning to navigate that in a healthy way versus learning to navigate that in a way that creates more separation. So I have thought about this topic a lot and I'm excited to kind of share this with you guys and also hear some of Chris's thoughts. Thoughts as well because this pretty much is his job and my job in a sense But we have to navigate it in very different circumstances. A lot of times where time constraints for me People chris is working with motivation to change all those different things change the type of conversation. So

Chris: 3:15

yeah, let's go ahead and get into it. So um For you, I know you've been reading a book that you want to give a shout out to and I don't know if you had anywhere That you wanted to start to kind of just go off of it. Yeah,

Matt: 3:29

so Super communicators by Charles do Higg is the book anyone that's been around me in the last month has heard me talk about this book It's a running joke in our community group that I just talked about this book I think every week for the past six weeks, which just means it's good It's Charles do Higg if you've ever he does the habit. Yeah power of habit. Yeah better faster stronger his writing is just You Awesome. So I love his stuff. It just really hit at a core thing that I had been struggling with, both with patients and friends and just relationships in general. So his whole premise is how do we communicate better, which is what this podcast is about. And so this book will inform a lot of that discussion for me, in addition to some other things, but. He really focuses on how do we be curious, which is something you talked about. And that really caught my attention from the very beginning. How did we be curious in conversation? How do we learn in conversation? And that is something you've talked a lot about, about how do we learn to listen? What does it look like to actually listen correctly and listen in a productive way? So I think there's a huge overlap between things that you talk about in, in this book and the things they talk about, about what he calls learning conversations.

n/a: 4:45

Mm hmm.

Chris: 4:46

Yeah, it was, it was funny. So for you, that was kind of the thing that captured your attention on this. And for me, there was, I shared this with you and I'll share it with you guys. I have a, there was a friend and I was kind of, I was some friends a couple of weeks ago. And I'm kind of a clown when I'm with people and don't necessarily, you know, act like I would at my job, which I feel like is obviously pretty normal. But, um, One of my friends was like, I don't actually believe that you're good at your job. Like how could you be like essentially a counselor and someone who gives like wise advice when you, you know, you know, how I am around friends is obviously not like that all the time. And so we did a test run. I was like, all right, give me a problem that you have. And we did like a impromptu 10 minute session where she just asked a question. I knew nothing about the situation whatsoever. And And still don't even really fully understand the whole situation, but just on the principles of what we're going to share with you today, she left and she's like, Oh my gosh, like, how did you do that? And I was like, I mean, I literally just listened to what you said, reflected the parts that I thought were important for what you're debating in your head. Tried to ask the right question at the right time. And that was it. I didn't actually have any advice. And I, and I asked her at the end, I was like, how much advice did I give you? And it was like, none, I gave zero advice in the whole conversation. And she walked away feeling. Like I had done something where in reality I really hadn't I had just listened and I think I use that example to just show the power of Listening in in that I actually didn't have a ton of knowledge in this situation at all and so this skill set is like is the Most powerful thing that I think we can develop. Um, and then it's worse can actually be a maybe even a little bit manipulative at its best manipulative in a uh a good and healthy way

Matt: 6:48

You highlight the fundamental principle of listening there, which is you didn't even necessarily know a lot about the topic, but you help someone achieve the desired outcome for themselves without actually having to tell them anything specific, which I would say if you were to summarize, most of what we're going to try to talk about over the next hour, that would be probably a very succinct summary is trying to help someone arrive. At the correct conclusion on their own, through their own thought process, through their own kind of words without you having to actually tell them how to think.

Chris: 7:27

Yes. Uh, one of my friends from grad school had a really funny summary of it. He's like, basically counseling is just, Getting people to think that they came up with the conclusion that you came up with. I was like, that's a really good summary of it. So yes.

Matt: 7:44

So I wanted to find a couple of terms and then we'll go into that first point. I actually want to talk about the The example you just mentioned is the first point, but just so everyone's clear on terms, learning, communicating or learning conversations in the book, super communicators, he uses this, uh, what is the, oh my gosh, the definition, sorry, definition or goal of these types of conversations is to learn and understand how those around you see the world. So your goal in the conversation for that type of conversation is to understand, learn, be aware, and then. Kind of be able to process that of how that person's perceiving the world, what their problem is, what's their framework they're operating through. And then, you know, in your, in your instance, if someone is in a counseling situation or a friend asking for advice situation, how do you help them navigate that with that understanding and that curiosity and that learning to get to wherever you're trying to go?

Chris: 8:43

Yeah. Gathering the. The part I picked up on that that stuck out is like perspective Your your goal is to gather their perspective. How are they seeing the world? and that's really important because we have to Really like to be a good listener. You have to constantly be checking yourself on Is this my perception of the situation or is this theirs? Because if you start to project your perception and perspective on the situation, you won't, they won't feel like you're listening to them because you're applying how you're viewing the world. And so that's a really, that is a really, really difficult thing to do sometimes, especially if. You know, we haven't, you don't have like specific training on it. I mean, I, I feel a little bit like this, um, is a little bit of my area just because I've had formal training on it, supervision and like people being like, no, you're, you're projecting here. Right. And so, um, if you haven't had that, I think the first question I look at for what you brought up is. What assumptions are you making? That's a really, really important question for when you're trying to listen to someone is, okay, they're saying this and When they say it, you're going to have a million different assumptions come up, but if you're not aware of those, you're just going to say those and see everything through your lens. And then you're not going to actually hear what they're saying.

Matt: 10:10

That's why the curiosity piece in the learning piece. I love those words because I think they summarize. That default mistake that people make so often when they're trying to be good listeners or counselors or friends is they don't realize that what happens is they immediately try to relate the experience or take their assumption about how they'd react in that experience. And then say something about what they would do, which is advice. And I love that you started with, with this as the first point, because the number one thing I learned from reading this book and talking to you is that Is the best listeners stay curious and really don't assume they know what's going on and that's what allows you to hold back a lot of your advice for most of the conversation, because like you said, once you make an assumption, you think you have the answer and that can really derail the conversation because if you, we'll talk about this with the reflective listening in a little bit, but if you assume wrong and you say it too strongly, Or say it in a way of like, this is what you should do. You can derail the whole conversation and the whole, I don't know, therapeutic relationship or whatever you guys call it, but. Whatever type of bond or trust you're trying to build, you can really derail that with the wrong assumption

Chris: 11:35

for sure. And just to clarify, this is, this podcast is for day to day conversation. I think we're just utilizing some of the tactics that counselors use very effectively and just applying that into our day to day conversations to help us listen better. Totally. Um, yeah. And I'm going to actually call out a subsect of people that you kind of mentioned, and it's all in good faith. It's all trying to do the right thing and to try to be a good person, but it's not necessarily helpful. And I've certainly had a lot of people I've interacted with and friends. Over the years that that this is their first instinct is you might come back and and tell someone a story or be like wow, like you know i'll give just a concrete example of like I come back and from the golf course in college from practice and I would Tell a story about what happened. And one of my friends would almost always relate. His first comment would be something related to like, Oh, I've had something like that happen before. And there's a time and there's a time and place for that, for sure, of like relating. We might actually get to that, but it's also like what you said, it derails. Like what? I was trying to say, and you're just not being heard because the first instinct is, how does that relate to me and my perspective from his? And I know like looking back on him, he wasn't doing it out of a place of like selfishness. He just didn't have the skills or the understanding of like, how do I make this person actually feel hurt?

Matt: 13:04

So I'd say 0. 1 avoiding assumptions. That's a great place to start. And that leads almost into 0. 2, which you just said, which is avoid that immediate comparison. We'll talk about a very specific time where you actually should do it, which actually made Chris listen to the intro to super communicators because he said that whole story about the, uh, doing that basically counseling session with his friend. And I was like that. And he was like, yeah, I did this. And I was like, that sounds exactly like the intro to super communicators. They talk about a person that does the exact same thing. Who's being interviewed and he is subconsciously or not subconscious. He is guiding the whole conversation without the interviewees, interviewers, realizing he's doing it and he gets to the end and he, and they're like, we don't really understand which, what your secret to success is. And he, he says, well, I just had all of you share some of the hardest things about yourself after sitting down with me in less than an hour. And he's like, that, that's my secret. And that kind of was exactly along the lines of, of your story. So we'll hopefully get to that later. But I just, I think the, avoiding the assumptions and then the, the second point of trying, because that's my default. I think that's why it sticks out to me so much. It's a lot of people. It's a lot. And I think we all have almost tears of people in our minds of, if I go to this friend, I'm getting either them to talk about themselves immediately or they're gonna gimme advice. First five minutes,

Chris: 14:34

right? So I'm gonna go I'm gonna go into two three things That are just super simple and like takeaways that can absolutely change the way you communicate with people Number one is when someone tells you something say you and not I

n/a: 14:50

mm

Chris: 14:51

hmm That's that one like fundamentally changed how I communicate with people of like you say something we we did this in the car It was really good. He's been Matthew's been practicing it I, I literally told you, I said, just instead of saying like, Oh, I hear this, or it's, I feel like you're saying, just say you are frustrated, like just replay anywhere that you have a statement in your head that says, I just change it to you. And that will fundamentally change the way you hear people. So simple. It's so simple. Um, so that's number one. Number two is kind of what you're talking about, which is. I think everyone's least favorite thing, especially when they're just trying to kind of vent or communicate something is the, the advice trap. The righting reflex is what we call it in motivational interviewing. And that one sucks. It sucks when you get someone who has a righting reflex. Our family is notorious for this Um, and we've talked about trying to to change it because it's it really pisses people off at times Um, and again, it's all coming from a good place of like I want to help this person, but I just don't know how so i'm gonna just You probably see this all the time in medicine with doctors and we've talked about some of the struggles that your profession and some of the Constraints that I have around this. Yeah, but looking at I just lost my train of thought real quick Looking at the way doctors I have a limited amount of time. So someone comes in with a problem and my first thing is going to be like, just do this, right? That's the writing reflex. And that will, it's, it's pretty, I think, um, unhelpful at times. Yeah. Not the most effective way. I,

Matt: 16:48

I think the, I had forgotten they had a name for that. I, I remember as soon as she says like, oh yeah, that's, I remember actually talking about that my first year of med school, we had psychiatrists that led our small groups when we were learning to interview. And they would talk about that kind of stuff and I love what you What you were saying about the you and I we were practicing this on each other in the car And I actually have been practicing with patients and this is one of the thing that one of the things that has actually helped me Become so much more engaged as a as a listener is challenging myself in every conversation to Not say I and to try to say back the you statement as succinctly as possible So even in a conversation where I normally would have maybe been disengaged, just that, just that little challenge of trying to improve my communication has made me so much more invested in the conversation with patients or friends or, or whoever, you know, random strangers. Cause I'm like, I want to be able to say back the kind of the main purpose of whatever they just said. As succinctly as possible without using I And it's hard for someone like me that didn't like you said that grew up in a family like we did It's not very natural. So it requires a lot of thinking a lot of processing as you're listening to do it So I think those are two great great really practical ways to yeah,

Chris: 18:06

I mean listening Is exhausting? It really is if you are truly listening It's so cognitively fatiguing and this is like all I, if I have two sessions back to back, you know, that are about 45 minutes to an hour or whatever, like that, I'm like, I have to take it. I have to go for a walk or something afterwards because it takes so much energy. To truly pay attention to what someone's saying, but i'm not just paying attention to what they're saying I'm trying to find the right phrase to latch on to to reflect to them and then like you said Formulated my reflection in a way that is Gonna be helpful for them to keep their thought process going That's not a super easy process now just like anything. It's It gets easier with practice But at first and i'm still trying to master this right like I understand how to do it And I do it. Well, sometimes other times I I don't I feel like I don't at least and um that to your point like Yeah, it takes a lot of mental energy. It can be kind of fun and keep you engaged through things Um, what is it? Yeah, it's tiring.

Matt: 19:18

Yeah, I think the the next point that kind of piggybacks off of this listening and some of the stuff you're hitting on is You The silent communication or the, maybe the silent undertone of the conversation. This is something in the book that so fundamentally life changing for me. It's, it's something so obvious when I say it, you're going to think I'm an idiot for saying it. It's sort of like the I and you thing for me. It's what type of conversation is the person trying to have with you? So yes, this is this is like it's so obvious when I say it But then you'll you the next time you get in a fight. I guarantee you if you reflect on that fight It's because you had the wrong type of conversation. You were having two different types. So easiest example I can give you is most of the time I'm having practical conversations And my wife is having emotional or social conversations. Those are the three categories he uses in the book. So practical is how do we fix it or what is the next step to improve or basically an outcome based type of solution. So that's a practical conversation. I come to you, I want you to give me a solution, right? It works really well when you're having both people are having practical. Where it really goes wrong is if I'm in a practical mindset, but you come to me with an emotional, meaning the thing I'm struggling with is an emotion or a reaction or something that happened in the way I'm processing it. Or he defined social. This is one I hadn't really thought about as much. You define social as almost how it interacts with the environment around you or how it influences your, your standing and society or how people perceive you, which I thought was an interesting category. Could you give me an example? Yeah, so. If you came to me and you're like, I'm really, actually, I'll give you an example from something you just did starting your sub stack shout out Chris's sub stack if you don't subscribe lessons from shallow things, go follow it. Yeah. If you don't follow and subscribe and get the newsletter each week, it's really good. Um, but you had talked about FOPO. That's a social type of conversation. If you come to me and say, I'm really struggling with this because of. I feel like people at work are going to perceive me this way or I think my friends are gonna Think of me differently if they know this about me, that's a social type of conversation Um, so those are three categories, but his one of his number one things he starts off with he's like We want to have learning conversations But to do that you have to know which of those three you're having in the moment and conversations weave in and out, right? so And that's the that's the skill part of it Is it's not like we sit down and say we're gonna have a practical conversation and then we have a practical conversation all the time it's Example from my work. I may start the conversation with someone with anxiety and it's a very emotional conversation I'm talking about their emotions what they're struggling with trying to meet them at that if I give them a practical Response in that moment kind of lose them but at the end of the conversation After we have the emotional part of the social part, you know, most of the time there's still gonna be a practical part So there's this interweaving and kind of changing lanes That is always happening naturally in human conversation. It's just that people that are really good at communication usually are able to pick up on that and that's what you talk about a lot with listening is. The silent communication and that's why it's so why it's so tiring Is because you if I just listen to the words, but miss the underlying meaning Then I kind of miss the most important part of the media a lot of times. It's

Chris: 22:56

brilliant too I like how you laid that out and there's certain yes, I even thinking about that for My work is like I have certain clients that come in and they're like I want advice right like that. That's what I want tools. I want skills exactly. It's like great. Let's do it They're telling you they want in that there's actually usually pretty clear signs on practical conversations Like even motivational interviewing which talks about like, you know Not giving advice a ton talked about writing reflex and all these things to avoid But if someone asks you for advice and is very like clear, like, Hey, what is your opinion on this? Then it's fine, right? That's when you give it because you're not you're matching the type of conversation so that makes sense to me the emotional as well and there are times and this one's tough because a Lot of a lot of times someone comes in with them an emotional problem and I'm like, okay I know what would help this Right. I'm like, exactly. I've seen this before. I have some advice that we give, but I can't give it. Like I have to, I have to listen until they're ready. And that I would say in my experience in kind of everyday life is where people miss the boat. And that was your second point earlier.

Matt: 24:13

First or second point earlier is.

Chris: 24:15

Yeah, and so the the key here is like getting listened to get genuinely listening reflecting on what they say giving them the space to To talk it out in and out and then usually by the end of it either a that's all they needed Right, but they don't want your advice and they just wanted a bouncing Board, which is fine. Great. You did your role or they'll get to the end of it and be like I just don't know what to do. What do you think right? And then now you give advice, right? But you have you cannot skip that first step and that's what so many people do. Yeah,

Matt: 24:48

I love the The phrase that he uses in the book of finding symmetry. That's what he calls. So he uses this Phrase called the matching principle, which is summed up most succinctly as finding symmetry, which basically means in a conversation, I need to match the type of conversation and the type of tone that you're talking with. So I was thinking of an example with Shelby, when Shelby comes to me after a hard day, this is where I go wrong. I could give you 8, 000 examples from our first year of marriage and still happens. But when Shelby comes to me after a hard day, or when I come to her most of the time, I'm very practical. But even when I come to her after a hard day. The first thing I'm going to say is probably an emotional statement of, Oh, the I'm really like burnout or that was really hard. I'm feeling really X Y it's I'm feeling, I'm feeling, I'm feeling right. I'm having an emotional conversation. What's my gut reaction? Uh, let me go take luke on a walk. What is that? That's a practical i'm trying to fix right the emotional comp and immediately the other person's put off Frustrated like no, that's not what i'm asking and you're like, no i'm trying to help you But then I asked they're they're not having that type of conversation. That's where so Many people go wrong and that's why the advice thing can feel so annoying because you are trying to tell them something In the emotional category Okay And just have them listen to that help you process that ask questions or just reflect back to you until you get like you Said until you go to the end and then most of the time once you say you're like, okay, i'm good I figured out what I need to do or I don't need to do anything That was the kind of thing or I feel better just for saying out loud And that's the person you feel heard by because they followed your type of conversation, what you're trying to say the whole time and you were on the same page. So they were matching you the whole time. So I think often people feel the most heard when they feel the most matched. Yeah. The long, you know, the, as much of the conversation as possible. And that's what a good counselor does. That's the thing is that is what a good counselor does. And that's what we're trying to say in everyday conversation. This is a skill. That you can develop to do with everyone like every interaction. It's not hard. It's not like you need to know the person

Chris: 26:59

Oh, it's not easy either. I don't know. It's not easy, but it is something that can be developed It's

Matt: 27:03

not like a talent that's like, oh I have this right now And you can even practice with people you don't know in a way if I go to the no one does this But if I go to the bakery at the grocery store, and I want to buy something I'm just talking with the person behind the counter and they start telling me a story You It's like, am I able to pick up very quickly the type of conversation they're trying to have reflect back? Those are good ways to practice because they're little situations. Can I start to pick up? What the person is trying to convey to me

Chris: 27:31

very

Matt: 27:32

quickly.

n/a: 27:32

Yeah,

Chris: 27:33

I had a as you were talking I had a memory that came up and this was Right when I first started this is about five years ago And I was with a working with a volleyball team and they came in and were just they were having the emotional category for sure and I didn't give any advice like I threw out my plan for that session Which like from the start which was the best thing I could have done I didn't really know what I was doing. I was right when I was first started and Just asked a question to start and they would and they talked about it amongst themselves. I've said a few reflective statements You They kept talking about it amongst themselves, 30 minutes go by, they leave or right before they leave. They're like, thank you so much. That was so helpful. And I'm just sitting there like I didn't do anything. I literally asked one question and probably reflected three or four statements that they said to keep the conversation going. And they felt like I did them this huge service. And that's like, it's, it was such a weird feeling. I'm like, how could that have possibly been helpful for someone? Right. But they loved it. They, it was like the most helpful thing they could have had. So I'm really glad I had that early on to understand that. Yeah.

Matt: 28:53

So I feel like principle number three is matching, you know, kind of talked about that and this is almost like a subset, but you just said people feel like you're super helpful when you just don't talk that much, but you ask good questions. And I think that's because people like to talk about themselves. So that's almost like a, a fundamental principle that overarches all of this, of why people leave a lot of times feeling so energized by a good session where someone is able to listen well, because we're, we are all kind of inherently selfish, where if someone allows us to talk about ourselves and feel known and feel heard. That's what we all desire And so I think that's why that feels so good. Although it's the person they're talking to you're like i'm literally doing nothing

Chris: 29:39

Yeah, I mean sometimes I feel like i'm robbing them. Like I didn't I can't believe you're paying me for this, you know, like But I but I think i'm kind of joking obviously, but

Matt: 29:47

sort of but I I think that's Highlights why this is such an important topic to talk about because to me that indicates that most people Aren't very good at it.

Chris: 29:57

Correct the fact that no there are definitely You Clients that I have that I know going in i'm like don't give advice just listen and that's all they're looking for because they Don't have this anywhere else right and that's why they are working with me

Matt: 30:13

exactly So I I think that just as like a general friendship rule is really helpful to know Most people in the world have way too many people giving them advice so even if Even if you do have really good advice, most people are already good. They have people telling them what to do all the time. I feel like they have people trying to control X, Y, Z about their life. And so I, that's why these aspects of listening well can be so empowering to people are so refreshing for people. I think just because so many of those aspects of life already are filled by other people. There's no void of good listeners. I mean, sorry, sorry. There is a void of good listeners. There's no void of people giving you advice. If you have Instagram, you have 800 people. You can find advice anywhere. Exactly. That's the thing though. Right?

Chris: 31:07

Well, that's exactly the point. I tell people, I tell people, yeah, that my job, the most important part of my job is not what I know. That's the least that is my knowledge is the least important part of my job. And I a hundred percent believe that, um, because 99. 9 percent of the stuff I say. You can probably find somewhere on the internet and probably the same with you. Yeah, you know like there's I think that's almost every profession now. And so it's not what you say. It's how you communicate it, right? That's what's most important. I

Matt: 31:40

Couldn't agree more i've realized how Useless most of my knowledges Right there It's Sure. I need to know how to treat certain things recognize certain things. Sure But most of my job in the 21st century as a primary care doctor is trying to Interview someone in a way and motivate someone in a way that actually causes them to do the thing Just communicating the information to them This is actually why I went into primary care because this the challenge of people to me You Was much more fascinating than the challenge of a technical skill of like surgery or something like that I can learn I know I can learn technical skill. I learned technical skills growing up all the time the the challenge of having someone That has no interest in changing and trying to find out why To try to then use that to help them change, right? Was just a fascinating challenge to me. And it's still, and I think that's where my interest in this topic really started. I started to realize how bad I was at it and, and how much growth I need to have to be able to actually influence people at all. These situations, it was like, sure, I have plenty of knowledge. I've, I have, so I have so much knowledge, but my ability to influence people was not changing at all. And I was like, this is, uh, useless. There's definitely a, so you can't communicate. Right, exactly. So that was what the second part of our conversation started turning to is, uh, like, okay, I have all this knowledge, but if I can't communicate, it's, it's useless. And how prevalent that is just on like a larger scale. Yeah.

Chris: 33:20

That's a brilliant point. I just took a writing course and that was kind of one of the inspirations to start the sub sec and David Perel, the guy that runs it. He says that he's like, now what separates you is not what you communicate is how you communicate it. He's like, that is the, that's what people latch onto. And, um, so true in your field. Um, gosh, the. The change, I know we talked about in one of the episodes, the change of expertise from, from knowing knowledge to now it's basically filtering knowledge and how you're communicating knowledge. How do you actually getting, like you said, getting people to change versus just communicating information. Like that's not going to actually, that's just going to bounce off of them and leave when they walk out the door.

Matt: 34:07

Yeah, I do want to highlight one more point from, from our conversation that I thought was super important because you can almost leave what we've said these first 30 minutes. Thinking, okay, all I need to do is not talk about myself. Use you understand what someone's trying to say. And that's like, that's how you'd be a good listener. And I think I want to make sure we spend the rest of the time highlighting there a couple, there's some more nuances that are really important, uh, to making someone feel heard. One of them is you have to know when to match the person in terms of vulnerability. I think maybe you don't do this as much in your job, but this is something that. And the intro the book the guy talks about is anytime someone said something emotionally vulnerable he would actually Match that level of vulnerability and that was one of his big ways that he gained trust with someone So and that's where I think the the skill of this comes in because that that seems like such a fine line to me Of okay. Try not to talk about myself. Try not to talk about myself Oh, but this person says something vulnerable. I have to go back to the matching for like, I have to match that vulnerability somehow. It doesn't necessarily mean I take over the conversation, but I have to. Have to figure out ways to be Vulnerable with them so that trust is built and I thought that was a really key insight of of what good Like really good listeners seem to do to build that trust

Chris: 35:48

that's yeah, I I think I agree with that and It depends on the context of the conversation, but if you're also looking for vulnerability, sometimes leading with vulnerability is the best weights to get it so that they can match. So they feel comfortable matching it. I mean, I've been in meetings and these business meetings, like some of them drive me crazy where it's so dang superficial and if the leader just opens up and it's like actually honest with what they think about the situation, what, how they feel about it. And some of the emotions and difficulties, then guess what everyone else is going to do. They're going to feel safe to express the same. But if, if it's just like, you know, everyone sat in that meeting where it's like, what are we doing here? No one's actually saying anything. We're saying words, but we're not actually saying anything. And that's like my least favorite thing in the world. And so, yes, I think it goes both ways. Like if you're with someone who maybe is a little bit more of an open book and they, They go vulnerable you have to yes, you have to affirm that yeah now whether I think I could My only debate on it would be like, okay Could I match their vulnerability without making it a personal story about myself? And I think you could I could be like I think with your non verbals with some of your reflective statements to be like wow You know, that's that must have been that must have been extremely difficult, right? Like I'm matching vulnerability there without making it about myself, right? You Is there a time and place where yes, I could I could fill in an anecdote about myself. That's really vulnerable Yeah, I think you could do that and maybe it sounds like this guy perfected that no my instinct I mean i'm not perfect on this but my instinct is generally to just really really affirm that feeling and what they're saying and then Maybe it kind of like at the same like at the end you give advice maybe at the end I'm, I'm matched with a story of a similar, you know, similar, similar, vulnerable level.

Matt: 37:52

Yeah. I think I tend towards trying to say something along the lines of like, not necessarily a story, but trying to let the person know that I relate to what they're saying in some degree. And sometimes that looks like, Oh, I haven't come close to experiencing that. That must be so hard. Right. It can be something as simple as that of like. It went something like some of my patients, they have the craziest stories. It's like, and so my, my vulnerability with them is actually telling them that like, I've never experienced anything like that. That is unbelievably difficult. And I think that it can be as simple as that, right?

Chris: 38:37

Well, here's a free, yeah, here's a phrase like, wow, that must've been, you know, extremely difficult. Like, tell me more about what that was like. There you go. Now I'm used to talking about embracing curiosity. Like now you have affirmed them because you're saying I'm interested in an end to You've asked them to continue, which makes them feel safe to continue to express that. Yeah. So yeah, I think there's a couple of different routes you could go to do that.

Matt: 39:04

Why don't you, uh, go through if I don't know if you can even do this, but people are probably wondering at this point, okay, we went through some kind of high level concepts, you gave some practical stuff. What would it maybe look like to do this in a conversation? Like what kind of like things are you saying after certain statements? Like even specific phrases you use a lot. You've mentioned a couple, um, I can lead with one to just give you an idea of what I'm thinking and maybe I'll, yeah.

Chris: 39:33

If you want to, I mean, just, you could tell me maybe. You just tell me something that's been on your mind recently and we'll go from there.

Matt: 39:43

Yeah. I mean the, the thing we've been, I've been thinking about the most is, um, like anger. So thinking about being frustrated, obviously there's a lot less time and control and freedom with two kids. So that's something that's come up a lot and in my thought process or in me and Shelby's conversations lately.

Chris: 40:08

Yeah, you've been struggling with the lack of autonomy. You've been feeling in your life lately,

Matt: 40:12

right? So that was a great example of what you're talking about because I just love the this is one thing chris really helped me understand You can go back and listen to what he just said. He actually said a statement which seems so counterintuitive to me But that's something i've been been actually using with patients a lot in it and it works because in your head I think as you listen to people talk about listening and being really good listeners You always think they ask good questions. That's part of it. Yeah, but I think what I wanted to highlight in that 30 seconds is You You actually took what I was saying you actually made a statement Which is it just blew my mind the first time you were talking to me about that. I always was asking questions I'd always big it seems like you're saying or I feel like I hear you saying always all these preface fluff words and then a question and you were like You don't have to say any of the preface and you can actually just say a statement and to me that was almost So direct that it caught me off guard, but then as I started to do it, I've realized that it really keeps the conversation going. Yeah. It's crazy.

Chris: 41:25

Cause I was, when I first learned it too, I was like, that doesn't make sense. Right. It doesn't sound, but so basically what I did was took your statement. This is why it takes so much energy, right? Like that would, I was processing that the whole time. And I was also feeling the pressure of like, I better make a decent one here. Um, but started with you, right? So you're, and then here, here's the tricky part is I can't, I can't A very kind of low level reflection is better than nothing. So if you start here, it's fine But a lower level is just saying what they said and kind of back at them Like I could have said you're feeling angry That you know, you don't have as much time with two kids, right? And and that might have been okay, but to make it a little bit more complex where it's like I'm adding something to the conversation and trying to get his Mind to continue to continue it. Hopefully it would be the goal of that It's like okay. You're I don't remember what I said, but I said you're struggling with The fact that you're something along the lines of you're struggling with your lack of autonomy Right. He said i'm angry. I've been feeling angry My lack of time and energy so I just changed the words a little bit made it into a statement And and again started with you

Matt: 42:45

Um, you were trying to mine. I think maybe the way i'd summarize You're always trying to mine one level deeper than the person's statement almost.

Chris: 42:53

Yes. So you are this is a good point so And we did this in the car because bear with it so you were telling me I'll give you a real life example so he was telling me some of his thoughts about Kind of a more spiritual

Matt: 43:05

topic. Well, just yeah communication and like sub like subtext communication

Chris: 43:09

communication within specifically the church and things like that And he was kind of expressing a frustration and I took a guess at what he meant kind of like that But I was actually wrong. I was like, oh, so you're you're um upset at the way You know, they're communicating this and he was like no actually it's this and then he kept going but even though I I took an educated guess at what he meant. So that's the complexity and inflection This is where it gets a little bit into the weeds. It's it's So start with simple, right? But if you feel pretty confident that you actually move the conversation forward by guessing what he's trying to say, and you're summarizing it for him. So then he hears it and it's like, yes. And

Matt: 43:57

yeah,

Chris: 43:58

it's going

Matt: 43:58

or no,

Chris: 43:59

or no. Yeah. Or he's like, no, not really. This is actually, now I know, right.

Matt: 44:03

That was the part that blew my mind. Cause I assumed if you said a statement that was that direct, That if you were wrong, it would derail a conversation and that's what I was trying to figure out There's this there's some kind of subtle difference because earlier I was like if you say advice it derails the conversation if you're wrong But somehow if you say a reflective statement the right way and you're wrong, it actually just keeps the other person talking Do you have any idea what it is about is it like tone or is it just? Like the fact that you're trying to summarize it that way makes you the person feel like you're listening You

Chris: 44:38

I think it's that that'd be my guess. I think it's obviously there's some nonverbals involved, right? Um, but yes If it shows that i'm at least trying to hear what you said And I maybe I don't think anyone truly gets offended if there's just a small miscommunication It's like no actually this and then you just rephrase it in a way Cause maybe you actually didn't communicate the way you thought you did. And so you can like put that together in a, in a different way for the people you're talking to. Um, yeah, it is kind of interesting. It's a little counterintuitive for sure. But I remember just going into a few sessions, like I'm just going to experiment with this. And I was blown away. I was like, this is crazy. Yeah.

Matt: 45:20

I don't think it's, like you said, I think there's almost levels or tiers to this, and I'm glad we're kind of getting into this towards the end. Because all the stuff we've talked about is really good. Intro I think this last 10 to 15 minutes here is really good kind of next tier stuff of you can just Reflect with questions. You can definitely do that. I wouldn't say it's wrong.

Chris: 45:44

Yeah, I I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend it Personally, I think it's fine questions are fine. I mean you need to ask some questions, but if you're only Questioning then you're it's almost becomes like an interview And not a conversation.

Matt: 46:04

Yeah, because when I first Read this book and it was just experimenting with different ways to do this I used mostly questions because he talks about a concept of looping, which is kind of what we're talking about right now, which is the reflective listening. He uses the term looping definition being basically you hear someone say something. You repeat it back to them and then you say, is this correct? Or you basically give them a chance to correct or say yes. And expand like you were talking about and they use looping to define that. But my, from listening to the book, it seemed to me to be more question based. And so I, when I first started doing it, I had done mostly questions, but after you just said that, and after our discussion, I've moved more to statements. And I see, I think your point is really good about the interview. If you, if you just go question, question, question, question, I do see how that could make the person feel interviewed and not necessarily like you are having a conversation maybe, and the conversations what builds trust. So you may get answers, but there may not be the level or depth of trust that's built as if you're doing more statement type reflection.

Chris: 47:18

So here's, here's, there's kind of a, if you're a ratio person who's just like, give me the fact, like. The, um, two to three reflections per question is kind of the broad generalized ratio. So I ask a question, you answer it, I make a reflection, you say whatever, I make another reflection. And then I'm kind of free. To maybe okay. There's another reflection I could make or I can I can ask a question about that So it's kind of like if you want to roll there you go make at least two reflections Um before you ask another question, so that would be one i've actually taken this to another I've almost gotten rid of my intake process because a formal intake is a bunch of questions, right? And I'm like that is the worst way that that is the opposite way of I want of how I want to start a relationship with someone is like tell me about the Or what's this? What's this? What's this? How are you like so I just open it up to them Start reflecting like crazy. I have a couple questions in mind Obviously if I they kind of get to the end of that that'll move on to that But it's like I have completely gone away from your standard intake that you would go to at a doctor's or maybe a more Formal counselor or psychologist and because all that information comes out anyway, right? And so like I want to build the trust And get the information, not just be like, all right, today's going to be all about this, this, this, and this. And yeah, I really don't like that. And, and, um, kind of the, one of my favorite books on it agrees with that. And so I know that goes against probably a lot of people's process and that's fine. Well, that's just how I like to do it and to your point it gets away from that Like oh, I'm an interviewer or I'm the expert and you just answer my questions now I want to make it a very equal where we're on equal terms and we're just having a conversation together

Matt: 49:16

That type of conversation gives the other person the control of the conversation which is huge verse The interviewer, interviewee is almost reverse control. Like, the interviewer usually has control of the conversation.

Chris: 49:30

Yeah, you relinquish, you do, you relinquish control. Cause I, I mean, usually the questions are very open ended as well. Like, what's on your mind? Uh, how are you going about this process? Like, very, very open ended. I have no idea where they're going to go with it.

Matt: 49:42

And that's one huge part of good conversation Or building trust or having someone really feel heard is them feeling like they have control I think that would almost be a better way to summarize what I said earlier about people like you talk about themselves The more if I think a perfect conversation is both people feel in control of the conversation That's like that's where people are gonna leave really feeling hurt and energized I think so the best listeners usually help someone feel like oh I was like like what I wanted to talk about that's what the conversation was about And I think that's what good statements do that's what good questions do is they the other person's always feels and control the conversation

Chris: 50:28

It's funny and this is kind of a little anecdote, but like when I was working on this stuff. It was obviously more for And I say when I was, I'm literally practicing every day and week, but to try and genuinely master this skill, which I don't feel like I'm at at all. Um, but man, the side effect I didn't expect is I really feel pretty confident that I can go into any social situation and really not know things about people and have a good conversation with someone. And that's a really, really cool feeling is to just like. I, it was funny. It was like, uh, I'm going to my roommate's wedding in a couple of weeks. And I was like, put me at a table where I don't know anyone. Like I would actually enjoy that more because of these just skills and kind of, uh, frameworks that like anyone I'm around, even if I know nothing about what their job is or the things they want to talk about, I feel like I could at least hold the conversation. Make them express genuine interest learn something about whatever it is. They're talking about um, and and so that's that's been the coolest kind of like part of this that I didn't expect that I Best case scenario that hopefully everyone can feel some sort of or at least move in that direction. Yeah Um, so yeah

Matt: 51:56

I'm gonna rapid fire some big concepts that I learned from the book that we didn't touch on And feel free to comment on any of them They're kind of I think they encompass some of what we talked about, but Like it rapid fire segment. Yep. Here we go. All right. So one thing you talked about is Remembering multiple identities allows you to have more empathy. So when I talk to someone Remembering, um, both a dad a runner a Christian doctor Husband, he's like that the more identities that you can remember about yourself The more likely you are to have empathy because you're gonna have share some kind of shared identity with most people You So I thought that was an interesting one. Like, I hadn't really thought about that, but he goes in depth about that. I think that helps listen to, because it creates that trust connection, uh, shared whatever between people you can always, you can usually find that, uh, and exploit that in a conversation in terms of the way you reflect or a question you ask, or the way you can empathize with someone's statement or say, Oh yeah, I've. You know what xyz

Chris: 53:05

here's a thought and I don't know the answer to this But like okay if i'm talking to someone with young kids I actually my way of relating to that is through your young kids it's like oh, you know, i'm not in the situation, but I see how so and so is in this situation and Yeah, I see that all the time and completely, you know, like find that common ground, even though my identity is like not as a dad or whatever, right. Do you think that would work too?

Matt: 53:33

Well, I think you're, it's still a shared identity and the fact that you've had that experience with it, like you've seen, I guess the shared

Chris: 53:40

identity would be

Matt: 53:41

around experiences with small kids. Exactly. Yeah. So that was one that caught my eye. I love this statement. Avoid generalizations because it will shut people down because it makes them feel one dimensional. That goes back to the control idea. That is, if I was to say assumptions, the reason they shut down conversations is because they make people feel one, like there's only one path forward in that conversation, it's like you say something, there's no, there's no other roads they can take to expand what you just said. It's like, Oh, that's. That's how they think about me is this one Defined path now and it feels like the conversation is has to go down that path So I thought that was a really helpful phrase Um, it goes into the assumptions. It's like oh I assume and then usually when you assume you make a generalized statement and Generally speaking Those are those are wrong because there's More nuance to the situation or there is more context to the situation that makes that person not fit on that path Well, so then they feel misheard and then they not right

Chris: 54:49

and again, that's the assumption thing, right? Exactly I'm just because when you're right, it's that's where you just have to be going back to the beginning of this episode be really aware of the assumptions that you're making because And this goes into like Daniel Kahneman's work. We won't get into it. Um, of like our brain always likes to take shortcuts So you make a statement that falls into a box that I have in my head. I'm like, oh you must be like that and that's horrible for human communication great for like If you're a computer scientist or trying to do data or something, but terrible if you're trying to make someone feel hurt. Right, right, exactly.

Matt: 55:27

So I love that. And then this is a great way to wrap up everything we've talked about. So at the very end, it talks about the Harvard. Uh, there's this big heart, basically the biggest Harvard study in the world. It's on human happiness and they looked at what makes people happy. And they've studied these people for like 40 years. So if you're ever interested, you should take a look at the study. Number one predictor of human happiness. Can you guess connections? Yep relationships and connections.

Chris: 55:53

I didn't look by the way. Just yeah

Matt: 55:55

number one predictor of people's happiness in the study no matter how poor rich job success like it was all about number of relationships they have and I thought that was really, uh affirming for this type of conversation of what What is the whole purpose of this for most of us? It's to deepen relationships, connections, friendships, just connections with other humans in general. And that is the number one predictor of happiness. And most of, most of the overarching, like, uh, philosophical question of life in every podcast is how do we be happier? How do we live better lives? And right. You know, that's what all these podcasts are about. So I thought that was just a really good bow on the, on this podcast. And I agree.

Chris: 56:42

I, I, that makes that it, yeah. Thinking about connection being the number one and then how do we have better connections? Yeah. Yeah. And then this is how you do it, or at least some ideas of how you do it. I mean, there's obviously a lot more and you could spend probably a hundred episodes on this, but, um, yeah, that's, that's pretty cool.

Matt: 57:02

More and more studies are coming out about isolation being as dangerous as smoking. There's something there about Connection is key for health Isolation, it's essentially like one of the vices you think smoking eating a bunch of candy being overweight We think of all those things as bad, right? Isolation is just as bad when you look at the actual data actually worse than most of those things But often not talked about so hopefully this conversation Has given people at least a few tools or a few thoughts on how can I be a better friend, a better listener, a better human being, some really practical stuff from Chris as well. So thanks for that. And this is something that I am just wading into from a, from a learning perspective. It's

Chris: 57:50

been cool. Uh, he sent me a text this week and was like, Hey, I use some of the tactics we talked about. It went really well. I thought that was pretty funny. And then, um, You know, I can't express enough and use the term earlier, like said, life's changing some of, some of these techniques genuinely have been life changing in the way that I'm able to connect with people. Um, so yeah, I can't kind of emphasize that enough, but yeah.

Matt: 58:16

Any other resources you direct people to, if they have a, Want to take a deeper dive?

Chris: 58:21

Uh, I mean a lot of my stuff is kind of from counseling books I mean motivational interviewing just the book is one of my favorites. I look into it over and over just to Continue to refresh my mind on it Um because it's so effective. So that's one of my favorites. I'm trying to think there's other ones I mean, there's a couple other ones, but yeah, that'd be the one i'd start with.

Matt: 58:42

Yeah, I plug super communicators, obviously Yeah, it's been it's kind of the the poor man's version of the textbook for motivational interviewing. I feel like

Chris: 58:51

yeah a little bit more Civilianized so yeah

Matt: 58:55

a little more storytelling. Yeah Well, hope you guys have enjoyed this Any other thoughts? Oh, please follow rate, leave a review. Instagram or apple, uh, makes our show more visible. Our audience is growing and we're excited about that. So the more you guys do that, the more you share stuff on social media, whether on your story or make a little post, um, or share with your friends, send it to your family group texts, whatever you can do. We appreciate. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks guys. Cool. Thanks guys.