The Sampler Platter: Law of Averages, Cynicism is Not Wisdom, and the Aura of Greatness

Enjoy this sampler platter of topics as we discuss things that have caught our attention over the last couple of weeks.
Links We Discuss:
https://www.irunfar.com/unpopular-opinions
https://bfastclub.substack.com/p/gamers-grinders-performance-learning

Transcript

Matt: 0:01

Welcome into this week's edition of the backseat driver podcast. We will open up by talking about me because that's the most important part of this podcast. Just kidding. What's up, Chris?

Chris: 0:15

Literally like walk in the door today And if you know Matthew at all, or he just starts talking about his life and I'm like, all

Matt: 0:25

right. Hey, well Here's the thing Shelby's out of town right now with the two kids so I'm trying to cram about three weeks worth of activities house chores and Conversations into 72 hours. And it sounds

Chris: 0:40

like you're doing it. This is the kind of the funny thing we were, we were mentioning of like the difference between an introvert and extrovert is he was telling me all the things he did today and he was like. I feel more energized and then I'm like walking in like exhausted My like last 24 hours And i'm like, I just want to take a nap and so it's just it's just hilarious the difference between those two

Matt: 1:06

Yeah, one thing when shelby and I got married, I thought she because when sorry, I just drank a lot of bubbly water After biking so that's a bad combination if you're wondering but when shelby and I got engaged Like when we were dating I thought she was Equally as extroverted as me so it was a huge adjustment when we got married and I realized that that Season of life she was in she had been probably equal to me But in her normal state when she's working full time other stuff's going on in life She's actually probably closer to 50 50 like needs some people time But she also needs some recharge time and for the first six months of our marriage I'm trying to push her at the same pace on that and You It caused a lot of fights. So if you know someone in your life that seems to be hinting that they don't want as much people time and they need some time to rest, it's not that they're boring or a bad person. It's just that they need time to recharge at a regular rhythm. And that was something that took me a little time to learn in our marriage. I can't,

Chris: 2:12

this doesn't happen to me very often because of my situation with like Not being the most energetic person and definitely on the introverted side where I'm like super motivated and energized and like people around me aren't. So it's pretty rare for me in that situation. But I can imagine it's actually kind of frustrating when you're like really wanting to do stuff and people around you are like, No, I'm good because you probably find yourself in that situation.

Matt: 2:39

Yeah. That's like literally the struggle of living here in Salt Lake city. I didn't really have that problem as much because everyone is kind of like me. You know, they're always outside multiple hours a day. It's, it's definitely a balance. The probably the healthiest thing that I've done is exercise before work. Or exercise really early in the morning. It kind of, this is a serious statement, but Shelby will agree with this. Running about 10 miles a day kind of sets me even, even with like, you know, everyone, normal person,

Chris: 3:15

you literally, when we go skiing in order for you to be at the level, like me and my dad are at. From an endurance standpoint, you have to have like ran a half marathon that morning to be like at the same fatigue level that we are by the end of the day. And it's just absolutely ridiculous.

Matt: 3:33

Yeah. So let me, let me run through my day. This is from woke up at 4 30 AM. Ran a track workout. I wasn't joking about the half marathon. That was not an exaggeration. No, like an actual woke up at 4 30 AM, ran a track workout from like five 15 to six 30. Met with some guys for coffee from 630 to 730. Swam, came home and swam, well no, got my oil changed. 5 minute oil change. Swam for a loop. No, literally 5 minute oil change. Oh, like that's what it's called? You sit in your car and they change it. It's very nice. Swam at the new Danny Jones for the first time. Had a phone call with a friend from Salt Lake City. Went to lunch, came home after lunch, biked for an hour and now we're recording a podcast and then I'm going over to someone's house for dinner. And I have a phone call after dinner. That is a hundred percent extroverts dream day right there. And let me just say, Shelby, if you listen to this episode, my dream day is actually spending a It with you, but if I had to pick a single dream day without you involved, it would look something like this I'm gonna put

Chris: 4:47

a

Matt: 4:47

psa

Chris: 4:47

and not cause any marital

Matt: 4:49

tension with the first five minutes of this Yeah, so we have this joke in our family I feel like i've matured a lot but early on in her marriage She would always be like I feel like you just still want to be single and i'm like no I I like being married to you It's just that i'm a very naturally independent personality, so it's a big Change for me to to have this like dependence type personality that I have to like grow into or figure out how to be like dependent on other people it's kind of funny that you say

Chris: 5:16

that because I feel like I have a very and this is like whatever i'm sure everyone says this to a certain extent But like I feel like my personality is pretty independent as well. Your person is extremely independent, but it's like in different ways You That's probably true, and I'm just trying to wrap my head around that as you were saying cuz I've never like you aren't in it You certainly were a very independent person before you got married and still have some of those traits, but I don't know That is a well yours. I mean

Matt: 5:48

yours just doesn't look like my independence involves Usually some form of exercise or meeting like activity. Yeah, whereas I think yours just involves because You're more of an introvert. I think a lot of your independence actually involves being alone, quiet things, not being right. Pushed and pulled directions. Exactly. So this episode is going to be fun. We're going to do some quick hitters. And probably five to 10 minutes per topic. And we're going to start with the champions league. So this past weekend champions league final Borussia Dortmund, Real Madrid. It was super fun to watch. It was actually a really good game. Sometimes I feel like those finals, like you said, starting the game are super cagey. I feel like this one was pretty wide open from the KG. If you

Chris: 6:36

aren't a devout soccer fan, basically me is a fancy way of saying boring. Yeah. They just keep the ball in the midfield. No one wants to take a risk. That's

Matt: 6:45

true. That's very true. That's a good translation to our non soccer fans. But one thing that came up during the game that is a really fascinating psychological principle is I, I want to call it momentum, but it's not really momentum. I would say. Taking your opportunities. If you're the underdog, that's probably the most succinctly I can say.

Chris: 7:10

Yeah. So if you didn't watch the game, Bruce, the Adornment was a big underdog to round Madrid and they. Essentially dominated the first, definitely the first half. And then even into the first probably 65, 70 minutes of the game, but the score was zero, zero, and they had good chance of a good chance, but got nothing out of it and at halftime, I told you, I was like, I'm just going to one, two, zero. And the reason I said that, and that's what happened is really, I don't think it's momentum as much as law of averages. Like when you just take first half, for example, you come out, they, they dominate the first half. Real Madrid plays horrible. You know, Real Madrid is going to play better, right? Because they're going to move toward their average and Bruce Huderman played above their average. So they're going to move toward that. So now you're having both directions a shift, but if the score was zero, zero, then, you know, that shift is going to be. You know, like, and obviously there's, there's weird moments that can happen that, that shape that, but in general, that's kind of how it works. And so when I, you see this in football as well, like when teams have, you know, they might go on three really good drives in a row. And kick three field goals or like have one turnover and two field. And you, they like get like six points out of it. And they've put up like 300 yards. You're like, they're screwed because they already put together probably their best drives of that game. Just from a statistical and like law of average standpoint. And they got nothing out of it. So just typically, obviously there's variations to that, but that is kind of a broad generalization. I think this, the final on Saturday was a perfect example of what that looks like.

Matt: 8:50

I think, especially when it's the underdog that's playing above their average to start and you feel like they didn't capitalize you, it gives you that, that sense of impending doom. I had this sense of impending doom. It was like everyone

Chris: 9:06

knew it. The commentators on the TV, us sitting there like. I think the teams

Matt: 9:10

knew it. I think that's the thing when teams talk about real madrid is classic If you don't watch soccer, they're classic for these playing horrible for about 60 minutes in winning the game, especially in the champions league I think some of it probably has to do with that of they somehow Seem to play below their average the first 60 minutes more than a lot of other teams, but somehow don't get yeah, nothing for it. Yeah, and so then they usually play above their average that last 30 minutes You And I think a lot of people say that's like the championship mentality. Maybe it is. Could it be as simple as just a lot of averages though?

Chris: 9:48

Well, I think, I think there's two things going on. One is what I talked about. And the second, there, there definitely is an aura around teams and players that have, the, the mind is a storyteller. And so it will latch on whether it's conscious or unconscious of like, Bruce DeDorm is probably sitting there in the first half, like we missed our chance. Right. They, they probably knew in their, in their heart of hearts were screwed. And then of course that just like actually screws them and real magic sitting there like, Oh, we've been here, we've done this, you know, 10 times in the last two years where, you know, we weathered the storm somehow got out of it and we're going to score a goal. And so it's like, I do think there's a mentality aspect to it for sure of like, whatever you want to call it, self belief or self fulfilling prophecy. Or like I said, an aura around. Teams, I mean, I, I think in tennis, you see this, I absolutely believe that Nadal, and Roger Federer won as many majors as they are because of their name. Like, where you get a certain point where you're like, I'm playing Rafael Nadal and Klay, like, I have no chance. Like, you just know it going in. Yeah. And there's definitely something to that. That's a hot take right there. I mean, I think. I don't think that's, I don't think it's as hot of a take as you think.

Matt: 11:08

I mean, you've worked with a lot of high level soccer tennis players and that's what I hear. Do you hear that? Absolutely. That's really interesting. So the things you're hearing in sessions is that names and ranking and status opponent Absolutely. Absolutely. Makes up. What does that look like practically? I don't,

Chris: 11:31

I don't think it should.

Matt: 11:32

Right, right. But I think I'm done. No, I, I totally, obviously you don't think it's should that's literally your job, but what does that look like? Practically? Like what kind of things do they say or how, how's that get in their head? Or what, what did they say to you? Are they thinking about on their warmup? Is it the night before does it change their approach? Are they more, it's,

Chris: 11:51

it's one of those things. It's like trying to ignore like a baby crying in a corner Like, you know, it's there and you're trying to pay attention to whoever's talking But you're like like you you know And that's the that's the tricky part is I think a lot of people just try to pretend there's kind of two ways Yeah, I'll say

Matt: 12:16

what's your approach to this?

Chris: 12:17

I think a lot of people try to pretend like it's not they're like Oh, I'm just playing another player I probably lean, and if that works for people, great. But I probably lean a little bit more to like, let's just acknowledge the situation. Like you're playing someone significantly higher ranked with all these achievements or, you know, higher level team and that's okay. What do we need to do? Right. And like, just, just acknowledging all of that. And then getting it down to what is your process? Let's focus on that because regardless of who's on the other side that's not going to change and that's what we need to focus on, but I'm not, I don't, I don't like the pretending like everything's okay and normal when it's.

Matt: 13:00

Yeah, that's a, I hadn't thought a lot about that probably cause I've never worked with high level athletes and a lot of the sports I do are very like individual, so you don't necessarily go. Head to head with anyone that's like ranked.

Chris: 13:14

Well, you could probably see I bet you could See this in individual sports as well like running or or golf. I think the good people you're like, oh the course has a has a Notorious for being really hard or whatever like at the end. It's tough I'm in your mind. You're like, oh, I know this stretch is coming up that everyone talks about like

Matt: 13:33

that

Chris: 13:34

kind of thing

Matt: 13:34

I'm, just saying i'm not good enough to have personally experienced that. Yeah, okay All right. So, so yes, to sum up that real Madrid one to zero as Chris predicted, should I start recording your predictions? And then we play them back during the episode, like timestamp, this is a great idea. That'd be a great episode. We, we tie, we'll record our phones, get 10 predictions. And then like every three months we'll do the prediction episode,

Chris: 14:00

I love that idea though. Yeah, that's a see how it's healed Smart I actually am or dumb.

Matt: 14:06

all right, so i'm gonna read you a quote and i'd be curious to hear your thoughts. So this is from a I run far piece by Zach Miller. So for those of you that don't know, I run far as like an ultra running website. It's like kind of the OG ultra running website that did ultra running journalism, Zach Miller is kind of the prototypical American ultra runner. He is what we call a dirt bag. Like he lives out of his car makes like for a long time. He just would wear the same clothes every day for like a year. It seemed like. Just that kind of ultra are we are we looking

Chris: 14:43

up to this person?

Matt: 14:44

He is really I I do like him. He's a really nice guy. This is this your single dream No, I don't think I would want he he's very minimalist. I'm, not sure that I would

Chris: 14:55

he

Matt: 14:56

Yeah, I

Chris: 14:56

mean

Matt: 14:56

i'm

Chris: 14:56

minimalist to a certain extent He does have a pretty sick like tricked

Matt: 15:01

out like sprinter van type thing he lives in now, so that's kind of cool all right, but in his article, he, he called it unpopular. He writes a column for them every month or so it's called unpopular opinions. So the first part of the article, he writes his knee jerk reactions and they're like all hot takes. And then the second part of the article, he starts it with this quote. He, it says, I'm consciously shedding the assumption that a skeptical point of view is the most intellectually credible. Intellect does not function in opposition to mystery. Tolerance is not more pragmatic than love. And cynicism is not more reasonable than hope. Unlike almost every worthwhile thing in life, cynicism is easy. It's never proven wrong by the corruption or the catastrophe. It's not generative it judges things as they are but does not lift a finger to try to shift them And I was like dang, that's a really interesting quote. I think because his hot takes were all like Oh, this is dumb that people want to run a 250 mile race or it's dumb that people want to do Barkley marathon or you know, just like basically all his knee jerk reactions and then he's like He's like just me being cynical doesn't make those opinions more valid or correct He's like just because I don't want to do something doesn't mean that other people can't enjoy that or That other people don't think what I do is stupid and I find a lot of value in it. So I thought that quote though, and the culture we live in right now. Of like having cynicism and having, you know, I love the first part, the skeptical, like, I think people think, Oh, if I'm skeptical or, you know, I don't necessarily know that we can a hundred percent believe that, or that's a hundred percent true. That's the more like intellectually credible place to be. And so I saw that quote was awesome because it's saying like, Oh, like cynicism and skepticism don't make you smarter. They don't make your, you more intellectual. They don't make your position more valid. I think a lot of times that's how people think. So that's my quote of the week. I didn't prep Chris for this.

Chris: 17:11

I'm processing it. My initial reaction to that is I don't, I don't disagree. But I think there is, I, I almost feel like people go along with things too much in life, you know, that we, we, we've talked about think again on here and there's just so many beliefs and just ways we do things that are very cultural, depending on whatever culture you're used to, and you just never consider until you get outside of it. And so I, I don't mind a healthy amount of skepticism. And I don't think he's saying that it's bad inherently either. But I'm also, I definitely agree that. You know, just being that guy that is skeptical to be skeptical, just cause it, you like to disagree, isn't the place either.

Matt: 18:08

Well, I feel like he must be hanging out with different people than you. Cause it seems like based on his article that he's saying that most of the people he hangs out with have too much, or, you know, most people he's hearing in his life are very, you know, there's a lot more cynicism, a lot more skepticism. I don't know. Maybe you hang out with a lot of positive people. I feel like the, the general. Air of what I hear is a lot of cynicism. I'm like, you know, every Politician wants to destroy the world and hates people every thing about the world sucks They used to be better ten years ago. Every city's overcrowded. There's too much traffic There's too much development too much taxes too much this too much that you know

Chris: 18:49

Yeah, I mean you can definitely complain about anything right and that's that's probably the point. That's the point exactly which yes I can agree with that I think the counter flip side and maybe the devil's advocate part is. You don't want to just go along with things to go along with things either. And so there, you know, there's a balance to that. I probably, I always am trying to not even trying to, I think just seeing the world from a different lens, I think always willing to experiment with things. And so, I don't know, I think there's a little bit of pushback for me on that, but I also, like I said, I don't disagree with it. It just depends on who you're around. I agree to disagree.

Matt: 19:36

All right. Next one. Follow up from our episode last week. So Michael Gervais interviewed Charles Duhigg, so super communicators author. And they did an episode together, which was really good. If you want a one hour summary of the book, I highly recommend that episode. But I texted Chris highly recommend our own episode or theirs. No. If you want a recap of the book, you should listen to their episode that you're plugging our, I also am going to plug our previous episode about why you suck at listening, which takes some of those principles, but as a spinoff and talks more about the listening piece. So but one thing I texted Chris after I listened to it. Is two of the differences I spotted. I think Chris clarified and thinks they're not differences, but I'll have him say it here on the podcast. But one is Michael Gervais uses a lot of short prequalifying statements and his reflective listening. And this actually came up in a, a book I was reading by an FBI hostage negotiator in the past of never split the difference he uses really emphatic dramatic language. To set someone's mind kind of at high alert and then usually the thing you ask them for is Below that so he'll use a statement like, you know, I have the most Annoying favorite ask you I have

Chris: 20:55

the oh, I love this tactic this is one of my favorite tactics if you don't know this we you need to go into this one because so

Matt: 21:04

It's really good hotels. I'll say that this is great. It's a great hotel. It's attic which story,

Chris: 21:11

well, when, when we were traveling as a family, a couple of years ago, like our dad was with us, he was, he had just read this and he was like, he gets super excited about things. He's like, I'm going to use the tactics from the book I just read. So he has this, like, I don't even remember what the request was like, get more towels from the hotel. It was like something super simple, or maybe they wanted to switch rooms. That's what they wanted to like switch rooms. And because there's something wrong with theirs and so my dad walks down to the hotel clerk and it's like I have like the most impossible requests to make and I just you know, really want to see your thoughts on if we can make this happen and Of course the dude like here's the request he's like, yeah, of course we can make that happen But it's like the way he set it up made it made him think it was gonna be this absurd Like he was gonna ask for a free room for the night or you know, like yeah He

Matt: 22:07

also tried that tactic again and snowbird and it didn't work as well when we're recording our podcasting literally getting kicked out of the room

Chris: 22:17

Yeah, he may overuse attack it is a fun fact I will

Matt: 22:19

say shelby is it before shelby is the queen of negotiation dude She can I, I do not understand any, anything, anywhere like refunds. She's the queen of getting like refunds, credits, money back in the recorder conversations. It's crazy. She used it at her job a lot too. It made her so good at her job. It's just like, and I listened to her talk and I don't, I'm like, what is it about what she's doing that makes people so. Receptive to she does a lot of the super communicator thing She she's very cheeky about one thing that i've noticed when she wants a really big request She listens for that one thing that she has in common with the person and then she like exploits that The one that I can remember the best is one time She was talking to customer service and somehow found out this person was like a new mom and she like really Like rode that like similarity because it was when luca had just been born and she was like sympathizing and empathizing with her on all the struggles and the lady gave her like You know double the refund basically so she's really good at that. I've tried I i'm the worst. Yeah,

Chris: 23:33

you don't have that personality. Yeah, i'm it's not surprising But you don't get many refunds Yeah, i'm not not really i'm too wishy washy. I'm just like like I just hate pushing people. It's just uncomfortable for me So i'm they're like i'll ask for something to be like no, I don't think we can make that happen. All right I just like

Matt: 23:53

walk away. second thing that was a little different than our episode that what was the pre qualifier like was that the pre qualifier? So it's pretty qualifier would be something like that Like this is gonna be really hard or he would say like I have a really tough question I have a really emotional question or you know, just things like that. No, that's good. Whereas you you were saying we speak Reflectively more directly more succinctly.

Chris: 24:17

Oh, no. No what he's saying. I'm not disagreeing with us at all He he's saying before the conversation setting them up kind of preparing them for it of like this is gonna be a difficult conversation That's fine. Right, right. I have no problem with that. Yeah,

Matt: 24:34

that's actually very good. No, for sure. I think he uses it even with his reflective statements. Yeah, and I think I do too. Yeah. It's just,

Chris: 24:43

yeah.

Matt: 24:44

And then the second one that I do think you do a little bit differently, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is in the book, and Charles Duhigg repeats this, when he loops, he actually asks for confirmation confirmation. That the person has understood or that they are correct which And I actually was talking to shelby about this. I think your version and our podcast is actually higher level. I think looping with affirmation like Seeking affirmative like is this correct or incorrect is actually the lower level version of that is

Chris: 25:15

It's not wrong, right? One thing that I do a lot of is when I really am not sure, right? And I'm and I'm gonna make a summary statement or a guess. A lot of times someone will tell me a lot of, you know you might go through your story with your experience. And then I'll say, okay, you're going through, let me, let me take a guess on this. Tell me if I'm right or wrong, right? That's my qualifier. And then I go and say what it is and 95 percent and above of the time they're like, yeah, that's, that's right. And so that I, yes, to use that sometimes it's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just, I think it would get annoying if you're constantly reflecting, you're like, is that right? And it's like, Just trust, just trust yourself a little bit. And what we said last time is most people won't even realize it's like, no, it's actually this and they'll just continue the conversation for you.

Matt: 26:14

Yeah. That's, that's a lot of nuance there for me. I'm just kidding. Yeah.

Chris: 26:20

This is, this is maybe a little bit of the cursor knowledge for me. You know, when you know something very, a little bit more in depth than average, your average person, it's kind of hard to communicate

Matt: 26:32

the simplicity of it, you know? Okay, I do have to say, you just reminded me of something that happened at work this week. So we had a drug rep come in. I mean, I felt like such a super communicator. After our episode, so we had a drug rep come in, they were selling, they were there to like, tell us about vaccines, like updated vaccines and yeah it was a Pfizer drug rep and we were just, I was just, I always talk to them because I always feel bad, like they're coming to our office for lunch, they're bringing us lunch and, you know, sometimes I sit there and like no one talks to them and I'm like, that's, And some of my friends are drug reps and, you know, work in orthopedic medical device sales and stuff like that. So I think I have a soft spot and our dad's orthopedic surgeon. So I think I have a soft spot for the, the people that work in medical device sales and, and medication sales. So I always talk to them for like half my lunch break. But I actually forgot to text you this I was so proud I get to the end of this 20 minute conversation with this guy I'd never met him and he tells me like the most personal thing and I was like, I am a super communicator It reminded me of that intro we had talked about where the guy You know the way he tells him about his divorce at the end of their like 45 minute conversation the guy was like telling me about his history with like addiction and And it was, you know, what's funny about what I had said that made him feel comfortable saying that is I had talked about how Exercise can be like I have an addictive personality and exercise Can be some of that outlet and that like little that didn't feel very vulnerable to me for him to follow up with you know That thing that he'd gone to like rehab and like all this stuff. Yeah, I mean But it was cool. I felt it was good. I felt like, okay, I had made enough connection in the first 20 minutes of our conversation, then this last five minutes, like shared one thing and you know, he felt comfortable enough to share. I was like, ah, super communicator, which I do feel like, you know, your strength is definitely the listening. I do feel like as far as communication, though, like making people feel comfortable having deep conversations is my, my super communicator, super power as Charles Duhigg would say. So that's what I've been that's the practical application of what I've been learning lately.

Chris: 28:54

Yeah, he's using it Good

Matt: 28:58

All right, you want to do one more all right Last one. Sure All right. So this one is the title of this article is actually on someone's this is on sam robinson sub stack I saw it in the morning shakeout, which is a newsletter I get by mario frioli. It's like a running newsletter We get every monday or tuesday And the title of the article is gamers versus grinders I thought you would have a a good perspective on this from your background in athletics, plus who you work with. But he, he basically says there's two types of athletes in his mind, or he has two subsets. So there's gamers and there's grinders and it, you know, these two, the gamers are the people who hate practice, but they show up and perform and then the grinders are me. I'm just kidding. The grinders are the people that love the practice. They love to work hard. But they don't necessarily perform as well as you would expect based on like how, how consistently they perform it, practice and show up to all this stuff. And he basically makes the, that this is like all anecdotal. This is just from his, like having run in college and like people he had run with growing up, just kind of like watching what he reflected on and seeing these people. And then at the very end of the article, he basically says, let me get the quote. So but he says the truly great have lots of grind and game the goats have both in spades Fear these people fear them because they learned to learn they realized that their inherent strengths were not sufficient And they needed to change and adapt These are the gamers that recognized they needed to work harder And these are the grinders who learned that executing a race is just as important as the build up That's the theme of the stories below how to learn and how to adapt. So Yeah, so kind of interesting and then the rest of the article has some really interesting stories about learning so it was a good one But I feel like that summarizes us to to some extent like you definitely practice But you were you were a gamer for sure especially early on in your career, especially not golf. I think golf you You became more of like a mix, but tennis and basketball, especially early on you were, you were,

Chris: 31:14

well, yeah. I mean, even I, even I'm still working on this and this idea really that I'm trying to translate from, from one of the writing course I just did is this idea of like making everything you do super high quality and how much preparation and editing and reflection that takes. And it's just a lot of fricking work. To make something really good. It especially consistently and my biggest problem and maybe kind of the the gamer mentality, whatever you want to call it is You can get close to really good without a lot of work And so that's the challenge because you're already pretty good at it but it's like you you also recognize at least for me like I tell people this in my golf game now i'm like I can I went out the other day and shot even par on nine holes without i'm playing six months, but I also recognize that for me to Actually be able to consistently do that and below par is going to take a ridiculous amount of work. And that's really daunting. And so for someone who kind of doesn't have that mentality, it's like, do I, you know, you have a decision of like, do I really want to put in the time and effort that it's going to take to get 2 percent better, but that 2 percent it's obviously everything at, at the top levels of things. So yeah, I'm, I'm thinking about that in, in the way I, you know, Sessions like presentations and and just trying to implement a little bit more of of that mentality because from for all Intensive purposes at least from kind of some of the the feedback. I've I get like when I do a You know group session or whatever come in it's like fairly positive, but I know Maybe I can make it that much better, right? you know with some of that editing and reflection and and really putting in the extra work to trim it down a good example of this Is like comedians how they will maybe shoot off 100 jokes the show you see is like the top 10 performing jokes of those 100 that they Perform at maybe smaller places or with their friends You And so you think like, wow, every joke they say is hilarious, but in reality, it's, it's not like they just filtered it through a really long arduous process. And I think I'm trying to learn from that. So,

Matt: 33:52

yeah, that's good. I, I think another thing that you touched on in that statement is when you first start something, you grow by leaps and bounds. So your progress goes from, you know, not very good to decent to average. But then once you get above average, it goes from like above average one above Average two percent above average four percent above average five, you know, it's like the growth is so much Slower for the per amount of work. So you put in

Chris: 34:24

yeah, it's a lot of diminishing returns. That's what's frustrating

Matt: 34:27

and but that's why You got to have both like you gotta you got to have that grinder mentality because you have to be okay with That diminishing return and still enjoying it Or else you never, like you said, you know, you just get stuck, right? You stuck and you move on to the next thing and the next thing without ever like really reaching that, that thing, which I mean, for most things is fine, you don't need to be great at everything. If you want to be great at something, I think a lot of people quit, right. When they start getting to that really diminishing return, where it's 10 times the work for 1 percent of the progress. Which. You see it in everything, which is why there's a law that describes it. All right, we ran through my topics. That was fun. Anything else? Oh, you want to tell them about the, the remarkable thing?

Chris: 35:23

Yeah. So we're, we both use remarkable pads for our notes. Like, I don't know if you use it in work too. I use it for work. I use it for everything. Yeah. It's amazing. And so we were like, well, we want to shout them out. So we reached out on Instagram DM and they responded when they were like, A very nice way of saying like nah, we're good and I was like whatever so we're gonna shout them out this one time And then yeah, we're gonna we're gonna cut them off. We're not big enough

Matt: 35:54

operation. No free advertising. Yeah, so

Chris: 35:58

We love you, and we hate you remarkable

Matt: 36:01

It's seriously. I know another person that has one and everyone said the same thing which is like they don't regret it's expensive I don't think a single person i've talked to that has one regret spending any of the money they spend on it You It's so nice. I used to have like five notebooks, you know, for different topics. And yeah,

Chris: 36:21

no,

Matt: 36:22

it's, it's a

Chris: 36:22

game junior. The other. I guess shout out if you haven't Heard or seen any of the writing i've been doing on substack. I'd love for you guys to check it out. I'll have another article coming out this weekend and really looking forward to Hearing maybe some discourse on on that. I've put a decent amount of thought and work into it. So hopefully it's it's enjoyable and thought provoking

Matt: 36:46

I got a preview of the upcoming one. I think that's Your best one yet. So excited for you to release that. And that's,

Chris: 36:52

that's really just been a fun personal project to be able to apply some of the stuff we just talked about, right. And it was like the, the quality and the editing and all that stuff. So

Matt: 37:03

cool. We'll try to link all of the articles we talked about in the show notes. And then I'll also try to maybe throw them on Instagram story with all the links or something like that. Hope you guys enjoyed and we will chat with you next week or two weeks from now. Have a good night.