Eat The Marshmallow: Why Delayed Gratification is Overrated

Have you ever had the thought that working away your prime and hoping for an exciting retirement just did not make sense then this is the episode for you! We take a deep dive into the background on delayed gratification, how it became overhyped, and how to find the right balance in order to enjoy your life now.

Transcript

Matt: 0:15

to this week's edition of the backseat driver podcast. The first edition in a couple of weeks, I must say. Um, Chris, where have you been?

Chris: 0:25

That's a good question. I'm trying to actually think of what I've been doing. Um,

Matt: 0:31

well, we went to Atlanta.

Chris: 0:32

Oh yeah.

Matt: 0:33

It's a USA Panama game. Oh, yeah, I know what I did which we'll get into

Chris: 0:38

back to back weddings Atlanta for the Copa America Yeah, I haven't really been here very much past couple of weeks. So, um, but it's all been good, good stuff. Lots of fun celebrating, traveling, enjoying things.

Matt: 0:55

Yeah. For those of you wondering, obviously you've noticed our cadence has slowed down a little bit the last six months and you can attribute that to Nora, our, uh, our baby. So that's slowed us down a little bit. So we're trying, we're aiming for like two to three episodes a month right now. Which may change here in the fall. We may get up to three or four months, so we'll see. But if you're wondering about that, that's kind of a big thing and just a little bit busier with work, especially for Chris. So we, uh, We got that out of the way one other thing I wanted to touch on I also will be out of town a bunch the next two weeks. We're about to go relive our childhood this weekend. It should be fun um And uh, we're gonna go see some family friends and do some things go on a trip that we used to go on every summer Uh, used to play pickup basketball, roast s'mores. So it's going to be a good time. So I'm looking forward to that as well. All right, let's get into it. We have a couple of fun topics today and we're going to start with Chris's most recent, right? Sub stack article. You don't have a new one. Yeah, I don't think, yeah. So, uh, eat the marshmallows, the title. Uh, why we've, why, let's see why our culture has taken delayed gratification too far. So I'll let, uh, Chris kind of intro the article and why he wrote it. And then I'll start peppering him with questions. Just kidding. Well, we're going to bounce some ideas back and forth.

Chris: 2:21

Yeah, i'm really i'm really excited to talk about this because I want to hear your thoughts on it um as well as like i've tried to talk to some other people about it because there's definitely There's probably some controversy in in what I wrote, but it was definitely something That I felt was genuinely on my heart for really a number of months. And as I was kind of doing the writing course and I always wanted to be, uh, you know, writing these blogs and things like that, this was just something that kept coming up over and over. And I was like, let me just kind of write a draft of this. And when I was sitting down, it just like flowed. I kind of got in that, that zone and had a couple of people read it over. And they were like, yeah, this is, you know, pretty fairly interesting. And so, um, it really stemmed from a conversation I had actually with my dad months ago, as I was just kind of bouncing off ideas, I was like, why do like, why is our society kind of built the way it is this idea? Cause our dad always talks about like, he doesn't really plan on retiring, which I actually really respect. And so that was kind of idea number one. And so I started to think about that of like, what's the basis? Why is it created? Are we meant to retire? And then the second piece was kind of my experience with life at the time. It was just go, go, go running around doing all kinds of different things just for a, really a two year period. And where I had like. I would go like monday through friday so full and so Like all out I would get home friday evening and literally just crash like I would take a nap almost every time because I was I was just done and It was just a really really hard cycle because there was like a part of me That's like yes, the weekends are really important to hang out with people But I was also like if I go hang out with people and do stuff Active, like as kind of an introverted person like myself, I have no time to rest. And then if I would do that and I would, sometimes I would get to Monday and I'd just be like, there's no way I can make it through this week, uh, at a high, at least at a high quality, the quality that I want to bring. And I was like, this is a cycle that I just don't see being very sustainable. It's not really. Enjoyable. And it didn't feel like the way I was designed to live. And that, that was kind of the core of it. And so I, I, yeah. Put kind of the way I was thinking about it, um, down on paper. And that really helped me kind of think about it in a, in a way. I think writing it is a, writing's a really cool experience because you kind of collect your thoughts, edit your thoughts and, and try to portray it in the way that, that you want. Um, so that's kind of where it came from. Yeah, and i'll kind of leave it there. Yeah,

Matt: 5:18

so crux of the article is a couple of things one is you kind of use this Study that is very popular. I think there's a book written about it about the late gratification And a marshmallow test that was given to young kids and then following them to see how successful they were in their careers based on How well they did with the late gratification at a young age You kind of took that idea and flipped it on its head So just kind of give the people a little insight into that and then I think we can dive into the discussion from there

Chris: 5:50

Yeah, so Most of y'all have probably heard it if you haven't just read the article Um, I don't know. Did you? Hear that often like was that reference to you often? Yeah, it it did

Matt: 6:03

I don't know if it was just our house. It definitely came up multiple times growing up, at least in our context. I don't know how widespread it was. I think it's pretty popular. There was a book where someone used that basically as the basis of the book. It may have even been the author of that study or someone similar.

Chris: 6:19

Yeah. It's kind of one of those ideas that I kind of just took for granted for so long is like delayed gratification is better than an instant gratification. And in a lot of contexts, that's obviously true, but I think there's a nuance to it. And that was kind of what I was challenging. It's like we, we had this one study come out probably 30 years ago at this point. And, you know, this so and so, uh, potentially conclusive, um, evidence that, oh, because five, a bunch of four year olds didn't eat a marshmallow right away, like they were more successful. So we should always delay. Or gratification and it was like that feels like a very big Stretch to like take that and and provide your whole life around that. Um, and so, you know in the article I I do talk about like obviously there's a time and place for delayed gratification. I'm not saying it's a it's a poor idea but But my question is like, how much do we delay and invest in the, like, kind of the way everything's set up is like, put away all these, you know, if you do it, I guess the correct way that, you know, financial advisors and all these people tell you to do is like defer money, save up for retirement. Um, you know, work 40 hours a week now. Until you're 65, like all of these things that I'm like, why can't you do it a little bit differently? Why couldn't you to use the analogy, like eat half of the marshmallow. Right. And would that give you, you know, like where you're still tempering to a certain extent, but you're also like, Enjoying life and kind of from a more kind of almost dark, but somewhat existential point of view that I was thinking about, I was like, there's no guarantee that I even make it 65. And so why am I deferring all of these things to, to that age? And also when I'm 65, I have no idea what my health is going to be like, what my situation is going to be like. And so there's just so many question marks that it's like, it just doesn't make that much sense to me to put so much of our resources into that. Um, and it really flips on its head too. If you're like, Oh, I'm, I don't plan on retiring cause well, so then I don't need to stock up as much anyway, right? Because there'll be some form of income.

Matt: 8:38

Yeah. I had two thoughts initially when I read this. So thought number one for me is I do want to recognize at the outset for, for a lot of people, this isn't necessarily something they have control over. So I think about certain people's in certain jobs, uh, especially, Certain education levels, like they don't really have as much control. So I do think a lot of this discussion is for people that have reached a certain level of privilege. So I do want to caveat that. That was one of my first thoughts when I talked to Chris about it. I think the second thought though, is this really highlights, I think retirement is almost like the arrival fallacy of life. So I crowdsourced this morning a little bit at our men's, uh, coffee group that I do every Tuesday morning and just got some feedback and one thought that came up is that Arrival fallacy idea of for some reason people think oh if I attain the thing that I'm working for in the future Then I will be happy and i'm going to do everything now To attain that thing in the future and that's where happiness lies but it's like I I do all this stuff now for that future thing instead of Like you're talking about a little bit more of a balance of being very present now Enjoying the journey now And not necessarily having this grand view of the future. Like it's somehow going to be a hundred times better. And so I think arrival fallacy was the other thing that came to my mind. Those were kind of my two initial thoughts. I really

Chris: 10:09

liked both of those. I mean, one, yes, to the first point, like there's, this is definitely not for everyone at every point in their life. I think if you're not in that situation where you're like, Oh, let me just change my schedule or. You know, financially changed my plan. I think it's more of a societal take, right? And that is where I'm going with it. Not that like every single person has full control over it. It's more of a commentary on that and why some people have to work. I would suggest too much, right. And we're in an unhealthy way where they're craving retirement because of that. Well, I think,

Matt: 10:43

I think for. You know, even just from a, uh, ethical business perspective, this is an interesting idea because a lot of the workers that are lower in the organization usually have the least amount of control over their schedules. Right. So that was honestly my first thought when I read this is thinking about some of the people that I've worked with in medical organizations, a lot of times they have the least amount of control. Um, but they do some of the hardest jobs. They usually have the longest commutes because of where they have to live because of pay. So it was also something that came to my mind, reading this of like those people really don't even have this ability. And that's more of a commentary on the, like you're saying, the societal ethical way we run our business, how we pay our employees, how our structures are as a society around businesses, large business, corporations, employee. Satisfaction, trying to reduce burnout, all those different ideas.

Chris: 11:45

Yeah. And I think the, the probably way too idealistic view of it that I have is you shouldn't, how can we get even those low level people to not just be like craving when they can quit their

Matt: 11:58

job? Because for most of them, reality is vacations and retirement, because that is, they have so little autonomy in their job. That's all they can think about. So I think that's a good caveat. We're not going to be talking about that as much. That's a much bigger problem, probably for another day. I think this is more people that are their own boss or in a job that gives them a pretty significant amount of autonomy, people that usually have the choice in some ways, do I work 60 hours a week? Do I work 40 hours a week? Have some control over their income based on how hard they work. Um, so I think those are some more of the people this will be, and also just what you're striving for in general.

Chris: 12:37

So I want to touch on your second point of the arrival and it's, I see a parallel in sports to this of like, you know, working for a championship and, and putting everything into that. And then so many people will tell you this that have achieved, you know, something great. Is there like it was great but also like what now right and So there is that kind of that misconception And then also the people that truly seem to have the most satisfaction from their careers Are the ones that did kind of enjoy every step of it they appreciated the work that went in the the camaraderie and the relationships Tom Brady talks about that is in his documentary on ESPN plus of like The relationships are the things that he looks back on and matter the most to him and that's kind of that Appreciation the journey if someone has seven Super Bowls, he looks back and he's like, yeah the people around me You And that's kind of more of, I think what I'm looking at is like, you know, that journey view, yes, you're striving for something and that's not bad inherently, but that piece, and then this, the second part of that is, you know, there's a pair, I included a paragraph on there. That's a commentary on retired people, right? Which is like, okay, this goal that we have, but what does retirement actually look like in the average retired person watches four to five hours of television every day. And it's probably fairly isolated And you know health isn't great. It's like what are we is that really right my goal, right? you know like What i'm waiting for and that's just so that's kind of something as well like looking at what That currently looks like for people

Matt: 14:19

I think there's two aspects that contribute to that. One is you have a very warped view of work. You see two types of people. There's people that either get no joy from their work or get all their joy from their work. And I think that is a huge identifying where you are there is going to help you a lot with thinking of the next part, because if you get all your identity from work, you're going to tend to overwork and you're actually going to think that is Everything being in the present. Um, but you don't realize some of the things that you are neglecting when you do that. I think for people that get no joy from work, you almost do this the opposite way in the present, where you work five days just to get to every weekend and you're not finding necessarily that passion purpose, any creativity, any joy in your work. And I think that is also just as insidious. So those are two sides of the coin that you really want to pay attention to just on a day to day basis. Because there's usually set up your mindset for your longterm, uh, approach as well, because usually the, the overworker too much over identifying with work is going to have a very aggressive view of like, I want to move up, I want to be successful in my career. So they may not even be thinking about retirement as much because they won't be so successful in their career, but they're deferring all these things now still, and not necessarily in the present because it's always next promotion, next promotion, next opportunity. And then for the person that doesn't have as much identity in their job They tend to look ahead because that's the time I can play do the things I actually want to do so I even think on a day to day basis finding the Correct. I'll use the word theology the theology of work of how how does my work actually have purpose? How does that fit into the overall? Values of my life use values at the end of that article I think that's a really important first step because that sets up the next couple steps that you talk about in the article

Chris: 16:16

Yeah and I think it's hard to have this discussion without just being authentic about where some of these world views are coming from which is like Trying to be somewhat biblical About this like what does what is the bible and christianity in both of our perspectives? on you know frameworks for work and things like that come from and Yes, like what is What is the, you know, finding the purpose in your work, whether it's, you know, glamorous or not, you know, There's still a purpose in there and in finding that where like you said and that's a tricky balance But it is a really important which is how do I find this where it's motivating to do a really good job of whatever it Is and also where it's not everything About me or everything about who I am. Um, so that would be one piece. And then, and then one thing I just keep coming back to that I haven't brought up yet, which is I believe we're, we're all designed to work that that would be, that just seems very clear, right? Like the people with nothing to do struggle,

Matt: 17:22

right? Yep.

Chris: 17:24

And so that's why that's one of my challenges in retirement is like, we're kind of going against our design there a little bit. And then, um, the second part is, is how we're very clearly designed to work, but I don't. See a very like it's kind of arbitrary about how much we work, right? And that's something I want to challenge because the 40 hour work week is pretty arbitrary Like from my understanding I could someone you know, you might fact check me on this I don't know This is what I've heard is that like Henry Ford invented it in you know, like the 1920s for his factory lines Because it was an efficient way that they could like bring in workers and have shifts and all this stuff, right? And then it just became adopted as the norm and that's just like Mike. I've always said why why do we do it this way? It in in every company is obviously different every jobs obviously different So why are we like normalizing this eight hour? No one can really do a high quality of work for eight hours a day It's just not it's not Possible.

Matt: 18:29

I think, I think you're getting at two important realities of the world we work in now. One is the type of work is completely switched. So Cal Newport, great author. He writes about this extensively. So if you're interested in what I'm about to say, he writes about in slow productivity and then he has a bunch of other books where he talks about this, but the type of work we do now is deep work, which it's, it's thought work. It's creative work. We're trying to make something a lot of times. What was the type of work done on Henry Ford's assembly lines? It was one task. You did one thing, very little thought, very superficial. It didn't require creativity. So yeah, you could do that eight hours a day because you were just doing that mindless task. But the valuable work that is done in most organizations for the people we're talking to in this episode is deep work. It's creative work. It is making connections. It is building models. It's all these things that requires in some ways, actually unplugging. To create space for your mind to do that connecting creative work. So by having this defined work, our time, he argues, we actually fill it with useless stuff, very low value work because we want to feel like we're doing something important. And just doing one project a week feels very risky. A lot of organizations don't trust their employees. And so they give them 10 very low value tasks that they do throughout the week check boxes. They do those things They're like, oh you had such a productive week, but they haven't actually done anything meaningful So I think that's one really important thing I have no idea what the second thing I was going to say was but I think that's like a really important thing to think about yeah,

Chris: 20:10

and that's such a good point because That's something I can really relate to in my field and I was telling some people about this Because I just made a pretty drastic shift in my work schedule based on this article I'm trying to like live out this article And intentionally creating more space to create and because it's like for me it's not just you need like I need the rest and then the creative space like there's there's both because if you're exhausted you're not going to create during that time right and that was that was the cycle I found myself in I I wasn't Creating nearly as much as I was before I kind of got into this really busy schedule because I had no time and space to, and then if I did have an idea, I never followed through on it because I didn't have the energy or time. And so like, I'm trying to do work on a couple of really big projects right now that they are exhausting from a mental standpoint, like two hours of really deep focus work is pretty exhausting, but it's like more gets done in that two hours than, Like you said, the, the eight hours of checking pointless boxes. Um, one of the things that I'm sure maybe everyone can relate to with a job, like this at some point, like I remember working at, you know, restaurants in high school and college. And if you like got your work done, you checked all your boxes. They'd be like, but you still had time left on the clock. They'd be like, go find something else to do. And it's like, why, like, like that's the, that's the mindset that just kills any room for creative process and deep work.

Matt: 21:51

You also have no incentive to, if you're on a time. Because you basically are working within a time constraint. So it's kind of like organizations and government and other big structures where you want to fill your budget to the max so they don't take away your money. That's kind of how the way we work is fill it with all these tasks. So it looks like we're busy, we're messaging on Slack, but don't actually get anything meaningful done or anything creative done or make any big changes. Take any big swings. So. Yeah, I think you see that a lot in medical care too. There's really no innovation. And I think a lot of, I mean, doctors definitely don't have a lot of time to like sit back during the day. It's especially now with the messaging portals, I see a patient, answer five messages, see a patient, answer five messages. There's very little time during the day to have any kind of meaningful thought, meaningful discussion. It's, there's going to be no

Chris: 22:47

creativity in that process, right? It's the, you know, there's the. Kind of like the doing and being mm hmm that that dichotomy right and if you're always doing you'll never have because the being is where a lot of good ideas and You know like changes are created made thought about but if you're always doing and I feel like that's what our culture is So built around is do do do fill your time fill your time stay busy be productive in some way That it's just really hard in any type of creative profession And I view my profession as somewhat creative. Like I'm creating presentations. I'm trying to write a book, you know, all of these things. I have to have that being peace in order to do that.

Matt: 23:36

So I totally agree. I'm going to switch gears to one other thing that came up both in an article. I read your article and then someone mentioned it this morning. Which is they think that a lot of this doing mindset stems from two things one The arrival fallacy like we talked about but the second thing is the fear to face the reality of life So if you're always doing like you said you don't have to be which means you don't have to necessarily have Deep thoughts about is the author. I just started a book called four thousand weeks Great book and it talks about the mortality and it's time management from a mortality perspective and she said Most of the time people want to be doing because once you stop you have to face the fact that your life is terrifyingly short Mm hmm, and I think that's very prevalent Especially in a lot of cultures today is people are uncomfortable being there was a different article I read where the coach told the track runner That the most important thing for them to develop as a good athlete was they need to learn to sit in discomfort way more In all areas of life. And I think most people never learned to sit in the discomfort and other areas. So they've never learned to do it. And kind of prioritizing based on that fact, because that is the, probably the most important fact is life is very short. It's finite. There's a finite number of things you can do in that time. So if you never properly orient yourself around that fact, you never properly orient your priorities.

Chris: 25:05

It's this is, I love this. So I'm going to challenge a couple of people or challenging guys. In a second, but I want to kind of share a story. So I had all of these ideas and I was thinking about like, I need to create more space in my life. And so I wanted to think, so I went into the woods by myself for, I plan on it being 48 hours of, of pure silence. All I brought was a journal and a pen. And how did you sleep? Oh, it was in a cabin. It wasn't like, you know, I mean, it was a cabin in the woods, but it got cut a little bit short cause I got tick bites. But anyway, that's, that's a different story for a different day. I've never even heard this story. Um, So I wanted to experience because I was thinking about it. I was like, I don't know what the longest amount of time I have genuinely just been in silence where it's just me and my head For I can't like I don't know in the last time i've done it for more than like 30 minutes And man, i'll tell you what it is. I would challenge you guys just do it for an hour like no access to people or Anything except maybe like a pen and paper if you want to write something down You It is eerie because that how uncomfortable we are with that and how uncomfortable I was.

Matt: 26:29

Yeah,

Chris: 26:31

and I don't know how else to explain it other than if you experience it too, but it's like how normal was that? 500 years ago like that was probably a very normal experience There's maybe people go to bed at night and it's like you're there and you're up and it's quiet. There's no TV. There's no phones It's just crazy how much that has shifted, but it's just one example of that, which is like the busy ness is an ex kind of like a unconscious excuse to avoid that. It's escape escape. Yeah. I think that's a better word.

Matt: 27:05

And that's what social media is. That's what media is. Entertainment. I, I have two stories. One, I won't say in detail because it will identify the person, but I remember someone saying to me one time in the most clear way possible. They said, I hate vacation because I then have the time to actually know what I'm feeling. And that makes me uncomfortable. I think that's a reality for most people. I think the other place to piggyback off your story of people being uncomfortable with realities of life and trying to avoid them, the place I've seen this most clearly is at the end of life in the hospital, families, patients, even other doctors are so uncomfortable with the realities of death. That they do things that make no sense to try to prolong life, like they do things that if you were to look at probabilities, just general ethical behavior in terms of what's best for this person, what do they actually want? People just cannot allow death to happen in these moments where it's 99. 9999 percent sure that the person's going to die within the next 24 hours. And I just think that's always been so fascinating to me to watch the psychology of that with these family meetings and other doctors and just how afraid we are of death and there's a specialty called palliative care. And I thought about doing a fellowship in it because those people are so comfortable with death, talking about death. The realities of death. It's so fun to be around those people because you can tell the whole profession has really wrestled with this and they're comfortable with it. And they realize it and they're able to make patient priorities around it. They're usually themselves able to prioritize better in their own lives because it's a reality of their work every day that they've had to wrestle with. So those are, those are some medical stories that I've noticed.

Chris: 29:03

Well, I mean, we're maybe going down a little bit of rabbit hole, but I also think it's related because I will say found. One of the things that framed this whole kind of idea for me was no matter what I do, how hard I work or what I achieve or how successful I am. The results the same, I'm going to die. And that's actually comforting for me in a, in a weird way where it's like I can go for it. I can go for like, what's on my heart and what I feel called to do and not just kind of be this cog in the wheel. And like, if I fail, okay, yeah, I mean, that's stinks, but at least I'd much rather live with. Like I went for what's on my heart. Tried it it works. Yay. Awesome. It doesn't okay I probably learned a lot and I can always just like fund things a different way. Yeah, and Also like verse, you know, versus like that. Um, anyway, that just thinking about for me, that kind of freed me up to want to take a bigger risk was like, the result is going to be the same, regardless of if I die with a billion dollars or 10 in my pocket.

Matt: 30:24

Let me, let me piggyback off this idea with something else that as I was doing some research for this episode came up, which is in 4, 000 weeks, the author Talks about, um, the lie of delayed gratification. And I think it's a, she pretty sure, um, we're going to pretend this is she, for the rest of this episode, she makes this argument that we think we have this lie that we can get everything done. Like there will be a point where everything will be done, whether it's on a daily basis, a weekly basis, monthly, or life basis. And that's kind of the whole arrival fallacy of retirement is, Oh, everything from a work perspective is done, which isn't true. And. And I, I loved the way that she kind of untangled this one. The question I left that, is that actually the goal to have everything done? Why, why is that the goal? I think there's some element of control or accomplishment that may come from that, but why is it the goal to have all of the checklist done instead of having an appropriate healthy relationship with how much we do each day? And how much we are able to be present and available and have margin and whatever else we want to do. Right. The other thing, um, is I think when you have this lie that like, we're always trying to get everything done, then it, the only, the reason retirement seems so appealing is because the only way to get off the hamster wheel, right? Like it's appealing because you feel like you're stuck on this hamster wheel that you can never get off unless you shut off the ability to have tasks before you. The funny thing to me from working with a lot of patients that are retired is people in a lot of ways are so unhealthy. They will figure out ways to make themselves busy doing completely meaningless tasks. They'll have like, they'll have more tasks. And when you ask them what they are like, that really is completely trivial, but it becomes this big thing because we always need to feel like we're, we're doing, doing, doing. And checking things off. She says in the book, the problem with this whole idea is that there's always going to be infinite number of tasks. She's like, if you send an email, you get an email back, you send 10 emails, you get 10 emails back, you send 50 emails, you get 50, like every time you do a task, it is creating a follow up task. So the more efficient you get, generally the more follow up tasks you get. And that's the whole. Fallacy of becoming more efficient is we think that if we're more efficient we'll get more done and we'll have less to do But it actually creates the opposite cycle So so yeah, I just I loved that The books really good I'm actually only a couple chapters in but it's from a secular perspective on time one of my probably the best book I've read

Chris: 33:15

The so I'm loving it. So the way I'm I love this because I heard of this as well something similar of The acceptance that we won't get everything done in life. And that is uncomfortable for people. But also, like, once you realize that, it takes the pressure off. I mean, right now I have a list, I am not even kidding you, and I've been keeping it for, like, two months of 40 things, 40 potential writing topics for blogs or chapters or whatever. I know for a fact I'm not going to get to all those. And that's okay. And that's, that's the difference in mentality versus maybe like a year ago. I'm like, I got to find time to write all 40 of these. Maybe I get to them. Maybe, maybe something happens and it's possible. And that's great if I do, but I think taking the pressure off of, wow, I have to do all of this is because then you add on, and that's just one area of life. Like there's a million areas of life that I have, you know, the, like you said, the never ending list. That just it continues to build and build and build. I love that efficiency example. That's really interesting

Matt: 34:28

Um this I I can tell you this episode's very timely in my own life Not only for myself, but the conversations i've been having with people are so centered around work life balance or overworking or Feeling stretched too thin in other areas or feeling stretched too thin in friendships Not having enough time to prioritize things That comes up all the time with so many different like every person right? Yeah So this episode should be the most popular podcast episode ever

Chris: 34:58

It should yeah

Matt: 35:00

Share it with your friends. Let's make a movement. But but really I think the thing that it comes down to is recognizing your finiteness And these are, these are three points I made, it's just kind of to summarize everything that I thought about that I've brought up in terms of how do we make priorities? How do we wrestle with this in a healthy way? One of the best pieces of advice I ever got is. Every yes is a no every time you say yes, you're also saying no so realize that I think people think that being a yes man is like being or being a no man is like they're both the best like or They both are always the opposite to something else, right? If I say yes to Doing something before work like running then I'm also saying no to spending time at Shelby or sleeping in Or meeting with people, a different side of people are reading a book. That's a reality. So when you say yes to five extra tasks at work, you're saying no to getting home 30 minutes earlier, saying no to some thinking time, lunchtime, relax. Like you have to realize that I don't think people process that enough as they're making decisions of every yes is a no. And you should think about when you're saying yes, what you're actually saying no to, and if that's a higher priority, I think a lot of times we say yes. And then the things that we actually would rather do, we have to say no to, because we didn't have our priorities

Chris: 36:29

aligned in a way. It's why you have to be very clear on your priorities or else you're just going to get stuck doing meaningless

Matt: 36:37

things. So I think that's one, the limitless thing is probably the biggest one for me. We think we're limitless, but we're not. This is the one, the list thing for me, I, especially with social media, being into so many hobbies. I have 500, 000 things I want to do. And that just drives you insane. So I think the, the wisdom, the maturity in that is, is actually contemplating the finiteness. Um, I think there is a way to do that. That actually allows you to be content. I think it would be very hard from a secular perspective though. I I've thought about this a lot. I'm not sure how, if I wasn't a Christian, I'd be content not doing those things. I think I feel a lot more pressure to do those things because there's not something more satisfying now or in the future to like satisfy that desire. So I would love to hear from people. And that's a lot of what my conversations center around when I, um, hang out with non Christians run with it, whatever it is. I think this comes up in a lot of conversations. Cause I'm always curious, like you have to reconcile that somehow. So I'm always trying to figure out how different people reconcile that drive. I think I have that drive a little bit more than a lot of people. I feel that a lot more often of, I wish I was limitless. I wish I could do everything.

Chris: 38:01

Yeah. I, well, I liked that. I'll make one comment on that. Cause I feel that too, in, especially in my work, I really, and this is how it got in this position was when I was first starting, I was like, yeah, Anything that came up, I was going to say yes to because I was looking for work experience all this and in my head, I was like, I want to work. I mean, like, this is obviously an impossible thought, but I was like, I want to work with basically every athlete in Charleston, which is like impossible. I mean, that's just a ridiculous thought or like every, you know, it's like any, and, and it's still hard for me to be like, okay, it's okay if someone else works with that team or that player. Yeah. Like I can't work with every single person, like just do a really good job with the people that are in front of me. And like that, again, I think that's the, was the maturity of understanding that. And also if I were to work with every athlete in Charleston, I wouldn't do a good job because I'd be completely overworked. And so like, there's that humility and kind of accepting that, and that wasn't there, I think at first, and I'm, and I'm kind of learning as I go along. Um, so that was my one, one piece on that. I want to hear your third one.

Matt: 39:13

Uh, last one is. Stop investing your time in the future and actually spend it now

Chris: 39:21

Well, I love this. Can I what go ahead? That's all I have to say because when I think about um, This is the like we're in our really the prime physically, right? And so Hello, nora. She's coming to to join. Um,

Matt: 39:41

i'll be in the video. Let's see if she'll talk

Chris: 39:47

But I I look at the I love this point Because this goes to like the 65 thing there's going to be a lot of things Like let's say I have the money in the time then because I saved up It's like there's gonna be a lot of things I can't do then and so kind of taking advantage of the physical mental Prime of your life and not just wasting that on Grinding away in the quote unquote factory. Obviously the modern factories of life, whatever those are for for us And like you said using some of that time and energy and money to do so

Matt: 40:27

Sorry, I was trying to get Nora to talk but she wasn't interested. You got to have your priorities straight. Isn't that right? Um, so those are kind of three big takeaways that I had. I think, um, one other, uh, thought I had is the thought you just said applies to everything, right? It's not just experiences travel also applies obviously to money, but I think people don't realize how much it applies to money as I was, um, again, preparing for this episode, someone said, I often think about the money I'm spending on a coffee. And how I'm spending that money now and not able to spend it later. It's not being safe for retirement. So it's even as subtle as, okay, you do the thing, but you're still thinking how it affects your future. And so I think that is often what happens too, where people are not, we just. Are so unable to be fully present enjoy the thing we're doing because we're always thinking about the the waves it's creating for other things Yeah, that's a great point So if I was like challenge people just to do one thing it would be try to be present And like make decisions not in a crazy rash way But just in a way that has a little bit more balance for present versus future

Chris: 41:50

the the money thing is interesting because I will, I will say this. I was, I was, I talked about how it's working ridiculous hours and obviously through that was making more than I needed at that time. And, but I was like, what's the point? What am I? I'm like, not, not even ever able to use it because it's like, I'm frigging so tired when I get home. Right. Then I'm like, why am I, what is the purpose of making all of this money? That, and I'm not like a million, I don't want to clarify, but like what felt like a lot to me. It was just like what's the point of all of this if I can't enjoy the money that i'm making right or or using it in a way that's Fulfilling purposeful helpful dollars, whatever it is. However, you want to use it. Um, so I think that's a that's a good point Of you know thinking about it that way do you have any other thoughts? I have one. I have one more good Um, and we talked about this in our long actual long drive number two Number uh, no in the actual long drive. No the the Oh the actual episode to raleigh. Um America's sin Of busyness. Yeah, it's the sin. I know we touched on it But I want to share this experience because it was so interesting Someone you know, it's like one people just assume now that you're busy and it's kind of weird if you're not And so someone asked me the other day They're like, oh you got a you got a busy week Come coming up and you know like the the normal thing that we don't even think twice about but yeah I got busy week coming up this and that And I literally said And just like the shock on the person's face was it was so funny, but it was also like It felt weird to say that and that's wrong,

Matt: 43:49

right?

Chris: 43:49

Like that was the that was the part that I was like this is this something is not right about this And it's not like I was sitting at home all week Like I had stuff on the calendar, right? But it was not I wouldn't consider it busy. It was a healthy amount of Work Time, you know social events all this stuff and I was like, I don't feel busy or rushed.

Matt: 44:09

Yeah, if it's things That you want to do you feel like you can be present Then you shouldn't be saying you're busy And if you're saying you're busy because you have so much stuff to do then you should probably think about your priorities so that you can make a Calendar that fits your desire so you can actually be present at the like the events Things you actually want to do instead of having twice as many things on your calendar and you're not present any of them and burn out the end of the week.

Chris: 44:39

The normalization of busyness is something I want to, I want to start challenging and people around me should make t shirts like it's not okay to be busy. There's a time and place for it. Obviously things happen in life and I get it. And look, I'm for you, it's probably that much harder with kids and a wife, right? All of these things. But like, like you said, what's the, that just makes you prioritize even more and be intentional about that. And, and like, it was ridiculous for me as like a single guy to be. Feeling busy. Yeah, because I don't even have those concerns So like if I can't do it then you know what I mean, but it's just it's just like the standard like you said It's like oh I have open time slots. I need to fill it with something. Yeah, and that that urgent that Urge to do that because it's so uncomfortable for me like oh my gosh I have two hours and I don't have to do anything. That's productive.

Matt: 45:34

That's good. Um Any closing thoughts before we transition for the last few minutes to to little copa america recap the state of u. s. Soccer

Chris: 45:47

um You do yeah, we can do that. Um, we'll just edit this part. Um, what was the question? Well, I guess so we just wrap up then

Matt: 46:10

wrap it up.

Chris: 46:13

So I uh, I would say as far as closing thoughts, um one hopefully read the article, uh, I and I I love Feedback. I love different perspectives on this. I don't anticipate everyone agreeing with it. I'm sure there's a million different, um, perspectives and lenses. People are going to see this through and obviously the different situations. And that's one of the, the, uh, fun things, but also I would say challenging things about putting something like this out there, that's a little bit uncomfortable for me is understanding that, yeah, yeah, people are going to disagree with it. And that's okay. I actually want people to, um, but at the, at the end of the day, I think my goal with the article and this podcast is just to start to challenge some of these ideas that we, that are just so ingrained in our society and the way we think about things that it's like, okay, why are we doing this? Is there anything I can do about it? And what would that, how would that change things for me? Um, I think that's, those are kind of some of the big questions to start looking at. You know, I made, uh, I thought about this for a while and I ended up making a big change and I will say like, you know, if there's going to be some. Different ways. I'm going to probably have to construe some of the financial reconstruction of obviously like stepping back from a large part of what I was, what I was doing from a financial standpoint, but, um, also what it's done for me in my life has been just amazing and the ability to go deeper into relationships. Cause I have time and energy for it, taking care of my body and mind and soul, um, because I have time and energy for it, the quality and the people that I am. Working with I feel like has gone up, you know, all of these other things I'm able to do some of these personal projects that i've been wanting to do for a long time. So in those Aspects, it's really enhanced my life. Yeah, i'm making a little bit less money certainly at least temporarily But for me, that's like from what else it's given me. I feel richer In that way Um, so anyway, that, that's just kind of where I'm at with that.

Matt: 48:22

That's good. I appreciate you writing. I appreciate diving into it and I've really enjoyed this discussion. I think if it's something that's really piqued your interest, I would encourage you to share it with a friend, sit down for coffee, have a conversation about it. I think that obviously helps our podcast grow, but also it's a great jumping off point for a good conversation starter. So if that's something that, uh, you. Our feeling, and you just want to support us or you've really enjoyed Chris's writing or the podcasts. We'd love for you to do that. So, um, hope you guys have a good day and we will see you next week or the week after we'll see when we record next bye guys.