Intentional Inefficiency Pt 1

We return to the podcast after nearly a year and introduce a discussion inspired by Chris’s Substack “Deep Lessons from Shallow Things,” specifically his article “Intentional Inefficiency.” We examine how modern culture treats efficiency, automation, and productivity as ultimate goals—an undercurrent amplified by AI—and question whether faster and more optimized systems actually improve quality of life. Drawing on Oliver Burkeman’s book “4,000 Weeks,” we discuss time as a cultural construct that became standardized with industrialization and globalization, contrasting it with earlier task-bound rhythms like farming and sleeping with daylight. We discuss that commoditizing time pushes people into constant future-orientation at the expense of presence and relationships, and cite the idea that more productive societies can become less happy. We explore how meaningful work, learning, parenting, and relationships are inherently inefficient. We finish by unpacking the “paradox of limitation,” the stress created by trying to control and optimize everything, and how accepting human finiteness can be freeing, especially for high achievers.

Transcript

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we good a little, we forgot how to do this. A little rusty. How close do I hold this thing? Oh man. Well, I was gonna pull out the, the Cam Newton. I'm, I'm back. But when he came back to the Panthers for like two games and then, yeah, that's about where we're at. Who knows? We'll probably be back for, uh, two games, like on the Patriots, maybe the little Cam Newton on the Patriots run. So we'll see how it goes. But we, uh, we're back a year almost exactly to the day I looked February 15th. That was our last published episode. So I know our a hundred dedicated fans have been anxiously awaiting our return. Yeah, I've getting, I've been getting bugged on the sidewalk by lots of people. Tell asking when we're gonna return. And I told him it's coming. It's coming, but little bit. It's like GTA six. It's coming out next Mo. Next year. Next year. Well, the good news is for anyone that's been waiting, there's a new episode. We're here. We have an awesome topic. Chris has been doing some writing on Substack, which we've plugged a couple times, and this topic will kind of piggyback as a expansion of that topic. So I think it'll be, uh, awesome discussion. Honestly, I'm very excited. We actually prepared, that was one thing we texted each other ahead of time and said, this time we're gonna actually prepare some notes. So we actually looked on the internet, thought about it, wrote down some stuff, so, could be good. Yeah. So I know you're gonna well, for the, for the plug, if you're, if you are wondering what the subset is, it's called Deep Lessons from Shallow Things, which. I made that name like two years ago when I invented it. And the more it goes on, the more I like it. It's a great, honestly, great name, and it's kind of how I view my whole life, honestly, where I basically work in sports, which is a very shallow thing, but then try to take, take away deep lessons from it. So that's, that's what it is. Latest article is in, what did I name it? Intentional inefficiency. That's what it's and yeah, so we'll, we'll dig in. I know you wanted to start us off with a few quotes or questions. Yeah. So basically the, the premise of Chris's article is how efficient the world strives to be, how we see that as an end. We see that as a goal and everything is kind of geared towards this, making life easier, making life faster, making everything more efficient so that we have more time, theoretically to, I don't know, work harder, be more productive, or I think in a lot of people's minds have more free time or more freedom. And so that's kind of the premise behind, uh, a lot of the article. And then as we do on this podcast, per usual, we're gonna challenge some of that thinking. We're gonna go into some of the psychology of that thinking and where from, from my perspective, at least, I feel like it breaks down. And then hopefully, based on how this goes, there'll be a, a part two where we kind of dive into what it, what it looks like to live in the real world and try to combat some of that. And, and what are some other modes of thinking that that can actually, hopefully produce the outcome you're, you're seeking when you're kind of going down this road of efficiency and automation and, and all these things. So that's kind of the premise, I think. I think one of the things that I find most interesting personally is conversations about when people like either a conversation with someone or I read something where. People are, can make you aware of cultural pulls that are so hidden within our lives and our society that we don't even know they're there. And I feel like the one right now is time-based and efficiency based. Yeah. I feel like there's, there's such this pull to like everything, like the automation of everything. Like why do we like it? It is because it theoretically makes things more efficient. Yeah. Is why everyone wants that. And it's like, that's kind of the undercurrent of this whole, you know, AI boom and, and everything that's gone along with it is like, be more efficient. Be more efficient. And I think it's an interesting time in our lives to pause and be like, okay, but why? Like, is that actually a good thing? And you know, so I. So I'm gonna start us off with, with an idea. So this is an idea. So if you're looking for a resource, from my perspective, 4,000 Weeks is a book by Oliver Berkman, I believe. And he writes this book and challenges a lot of the assumptions that we're also gonna challenge. So if you're looking for kind of a even more expanded discussion of this idea of time and efficiency and outcome, great book. And we'll kind of dive into some of the, the different areas where, where maybe we even disagree. But I think the first concept to think about is time itself. There's, there's never been a time in any of our lifetimes where time wasn't a cultural construct that everything operates out of right. But there was a time where that was not true. In, in the book, he makes the argument that's probably somewhere in the middle ages around the. 15 hundreds, um, or even a little bit earlier, but basically whenever there started to be factories, industrialization, and then ultimately the need to coordinate the factories with the products, with the economy that they're going to, you needed time because otherwise you had no way to coordinate those things in official way. Well, also, also, as the world became more global, right, you had to have a system to be able to have, you know, Europe communicate with the US and, and, and vice versa, and, and all these different time zones. And so, you know, that's obviously the most thing that made the most logical sense was to make it standardized and, and broken up into pieces of days, hours in, in minutes. And it brings up a, a really fascinating point in the book, which you've probably never challenged, but he basically makes the point that time was not a variable that was. Attempted to be manipulated before that because the tasks that you were doing were inherently restricted mm-hmm. By the task. Well, the best example he gives is farming. He's like, you can't speed up farming. You plant the seed at a certain time of the year. The seed sits in the soil, you water it for a certain amount of time, and then it grows, and then harvest happens at a certain time. There's no way to make that more efficient. Right, per se, because you have to just do the task as it kind of comes. Same thing with like waking up and going to sleep when you don't have lights or electricity. You just go to sleep when the sun goes down and you wake up when the sun comes up. There's not all of these other things happening where you're trying to maximize all these other things because you're not, it's not even a, a variable that exists in your mind. You just kind of go with the natural rhythm of how things go. So he, he was kind of making the point of how that. Uh, there was a time when that was true and, and obviously now we live in a time where very much everything is can, you know, kind of construed within the variable of time. Yeah. It's, it's kind of wild to even think about it. It's so ingrained into our lives of like the concept of time that living without it would be so foreign to us. I think one of my central themes that I've been working on over the past, probably year or so is there are so many, like that our brain was developed for a completely different life than the one we currently live. Mm-hmm. And there's obviously a million different variables to that, but one of them is, is this is this concept of like, how can I get more things done and more things done? And I just don't think that was really the way we were designed to be, would, would probably be my thought on it. And I think we're starting to experience some consequences of it. One of the, one of my favorite quotes, I forget exactly who said it. But you know, someone predicted with all the technological advances that we'd be working 10 to 15 hours a week and have so much leisure time because everything's gonna be yeah. Done for us. And it's gone in almost the opposite direction. Because what people don't understand is the more efficient I can do other things, then that adds more time for me to just add onto my plate. Or if you know you work under a company or a boss, they're gonna expect you to, you know,'cause you're there for a certain amount of time to now, now you can do these other things. So it actually just adds on more work and has the opposite of effect of, I think what most people thought it would have. Yeah. We're gonna hold onto that thought for a second. I want to come back to that, but I think probably if I was listening to this, having listened to our podcast before, I'd be like, what in the world? Why does this matter? And I think it matters because if you look at the actual research that stands behind this concept of. Trying to harness time, trying to harness efficiency, trying to harness automation for productivity and for happiness. You actually find the opposite effect. Generally, the more productive, the more efficient a society gets, actually the less happy they get. And so I think at the end of the day, the reason that this topic came up for us is because, at least for me, I'm always thinking, what, what is the meaning of why I'm here? What is the purpose of why I'm here? What, what is the actual pathway that leads to enjoyment or fulfillment or purpose, right? And so I think most people think, oh, as we get better technology, we get more efficient, we get more automation. That's what it brings. It brings freedom, it brings more independence, it brings more choice, it brings better income, brings less poverty. And you would think those things are true. But when you really sit down, look at the data and really like. Bring all those assumptions out to light. You don't really see that. And so that's why I think it matters is to break down some of these assumptions. Like you said, these what I call stories of change from a book. I really like these kind of undercurrents of the culture that go unchallenged. They go kind of under the radar, but they have the probably the biggest influences on on day-to-day thinking. I wanna, I wanna jump in on something you said.'cause I think it was really the heart of the article, what I wrote, and, and it's a comment about how sys the more efficient societies are actually the less happy they are. Mm-hmm. And, and I think that really was what I was trying to communicate was maybe without even knowing that study, like what I have felt, one of the, uh, one comment I heard is like, technological advancement isn't actually advancement just because technology's getting better. Like true societal and technological advancement is like, are we improving our quality of life? And I think that's where I raised some questions with some of these advancements of. Okay. When I call a company and I have to speak to an automated voice message and, and a fake operator and I can't get in contact with a human person, it's like, is that more cost efficient for the company? Is it even potentially more efficient time-wise? Sure, but has that made my life better? Has that made other people's lives better? And it's like, I obviously have questions about that. And also how many like interactions we're losing out on which we know a healthy society has that in, in a healthy life, has human face-to-face interactions. Even, even small ones. Obviously deep connections are very important, but all of these things, it's like, are we actually making our society better or are we just making it faster? Yeah. And that, that's kind of the fundamental question, and that's kind of why I titled it like intentional inefficiency is that inefficiency might actually be beneficial in some context. Right. So. I'm gonna kind of tie this all together. The, I think the main kind of undercurrent that ties this all together is once time became a thing, then it became something to be mastered and it became a commodity, right? And so once something becomes a commodity and it can be turned into an instrument, then people try to master, right? They try to take it, mold it, control it. And that's what we've seen with time, is people, you see these crazy YouTube videos or Instagram influencers now that start their morning routines that the guy that threw the water on his face or whatever, you super jacked guy, you know, I'm talking about his morning routine was like five hours. You just see like, yes, it's ridiculous in a sense, but you see this everywhere where morning routines are all the rage right now, the Huberman protocols with 50 supplements, and you do this at this time, you do this at this time. And the point that I want to make from. Time becoming a commodity is this quote from 4,000 weeks. I love it says, when you do that, you're always in the future at the expense of being in the present. Like whenever you are trying to commoditize time, you're trying to master time, you're trying to be overly efficient in your life, what are you doing? You always have to be looking ahead to the next thing. And what is that at, at the expense of, it's at the expense of actually being present. And that to me is kind of the crux of this whole efficient versus inefficient thing. Mm-hmm. Is when you give up, uh, being present, which you're also giving up in a sense, at a deeper level is relationship. And I, and that's what I want to draw of what, what I think you're feeling more than anything is if you really boil down what humans are made for, it's not being more productive. It's not being faster paced. It's actually. Learning how to connect with people in a, in a deeper way. And that's why I think on automation kind of falls into this productivity efficiency category because what do they all remove from the world? They all remove deep, real connection. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean there's, there's a couple thoughts that that come to my mind. I mean, I, my first thought it comes from this, I, I read a really cool article on kind of a someone's perspective on ai. In, in one of the optimistic views of it was it's, we can't outproduce AI now. Like, that's very, very clear. And he's like, the one good thing about that is it shows us like, because we can't compete with it, we can maybe, hopefully accept that. That was never our purpose in the first place was to just produce, produce, produce. Right. And we can actually get more in tune with people and. Deep work and creative work and like some of these things that I think humans have been so much turned into, you know, almost machine, like when you think of the industrial area, it was like humans basically were the machines now and just here's your, you work for this amount of hours doing this job. And it's like, that probably wasn't a, the perfect in intention of human labor in terms of like an idealistic worldview. And so, you know, maybe I, I thought that was an interesting thought to think about it. Like now it's just, there's absolutely no way we can compete, obviously. And so maybe it's gonna allow us to actually have, you know, with the, if we move in that direction, which I think we could at least personally, it's hard to get society to move, obviously in a direction, but personally to use that extra efficiency and time for some more inefficiency in those relationships. That you're talking about. I had one more thought I can't remember right now. So, yeah, I, one thing I love about this podcast is I think the goal is always to say, okay, if you're gonna take the time to listen to this, it's like, yeah, we want to just have some, some fun banter. Yeah. We want to talk about things that interest us and hopefully interest you. But it's also like, is there, uh, a deeper reality where by talking about these things and becoming aware of these things, that you can actually have some freedom? Because the, the funny paradox of this whole conversation is the people that are doing all these routines, trying to be as productive, outsourcing everything, automating everything, these companies, it's like they think they're actually gaining power over those things, but in reality, that whole mechanism and infrastructure and institution of efficiency really controls you, right? Yeah. Because, and so there's something about bringing it, we've said this in multiple episodes, there's something, I'm bringing awareness to things as the first step. Of actually being able to change it. And so in part two, I think we'll talk more about the specific changes, but I just wanted to say that now to say like, we're trying to bring an awareness to something that's very real. I'll give you a real world example. I, uh, love my employer, so shout out, uh, my employer. Don't take this the wrong way, but God, it's, here we go. It's, it's really been eye-opening to see, so they gave us AI scribing for our work. And if you look at some of the research with AI scribes in medicine, it's like, oh, it makes you X percent more efficient. Well, what, what's the logical next thing that's gonna happen? It's not like they're gonna be like, oh, we're so happy that you're more efficient, which means you can see the same number of patients in less time and be less burnout. Right, right. They're gonna say. Okay. In three years, that 30% efficiency bump, we want you to see five more patients. Of course they're gonna fill it. And, and so that's, that is the simplest example of what, what happens is you get more efficient and then you try to fill the time. You try to basically fill the time that you just created by being more efficient. I love this, uh, this quote from, from 4,000 weeks talking about this topic. He says, most of us invest a lot of energy one way or another in trying to avoid fully experiencing the reality in which we find ourselves, which is confronting our limitations in the reality that we can't do everything. Yeah. And I just find that to be so true in this of like, a lot of times the reason we want to keep pressing into efficiency and all this is because confronting our finiteness and our limitedness and how little we can actually do is really hard. And depending on your personality, that hits in a lot of different ways. I think for me it's like. In a lot of ways I want to be, God, I want to be able to have 10 best friends, do three hobbies and be excellent at all of them. Be a good doctor, be a good dad. It's like, but the older I get, the more I realize you can have like one to three best friends. You can have one hobby and then the rest of your time is going towards like doing your job well, loving your family well, like that's just the reality. Yeah. It's just not what you, you can push back against that and try to get all these things, outsource all these things, be more efficient, schedule your routine a certain way, but at the end of the day, that's gonna come at the expense of some of those relationships. If you're trying to fit more and more and more in there, or you're just not gonna be very good or you're gonna end up burnout, like Right. Those are really the only things that can result from that. Yeah. I think one of the, one of the lessons I had to learn probably two, three years ago was when I was first started my business and practice. I was like trying to say yes to everything and, and my goal was to. I dunno. At the time my goal was to like take over Charleston in the sports psychology department. Like do you know, like, and then I eventually realized like that wasn't possible because there's thousands of people that are probably seeking or could use some support at some time. And I'm one person and that's like, it just wasn't, and I had to learn that finiteness and had to accept it. And it was very healing honestly, to be able to, to realize that of like, it's okay if I see just, just a couple people a week versus trying to cram in and literally work and not enjoy my life. And what's interesting is now since I learned that, I feel like I am communicating that a lot with people that I work with because I usually attract the type of client who is trying to do too much, um, because they're high achievers, high performer personalities, and a lot of that a, that comment comes outta my mouth. A lot of like. It's hard to accept, but we are a limited human being and you can't do it all. And, and it's like, it's actually very freeing in a very backwards way. Yeah. There's uh, something called the paradox of limitation, and it's this idea that the more you try to control things, the more you try to fit everything in, be more efficient, automate your life, generally, the more stressful it becomes. Which, because of what we were talking about earlier, it's like you try to fill the time, you try to see more patients, you try to master more things, you try to have more best friends, so you end up just filling it so it gets more stressful. It actually gets emptier because you can't have the depth required to actually have fulfillment in those things. And then it becomes frustrating because eventually you're juggling all these plates and they fall down and that's very frustrating. Well, what you mentioned was also the, I think the other heart of the article that I was gonna bring up earlier that I couldn't remember, but you brought it up, is I, I think. What's what's been a really interesting informal research study for me was I run a very inefficient business model. Mm-hmm. Like it is archaic in terms of the, like I have a website and that's about it. You know, you're certainly no Matt Shivers saying Yeah, no, I, I have, and what's funny is I actually tried to update it about two years ago and make it very modern and I actually went back to the old way'cause I didn't like it. And what's what's funny is I think people actually like my inefficient process because I spend time with them. Because it's inefficient. I talk to them on the phone and I have to text them to set things up, and when I meet with them, I, I spend time with them. It, it's just like, and it's not like, oh, I got, and I don't cut'em off because the next client's coming in, in two minutes. I, sorry, I have to cut you off. I don't do that type of thing. And so do I probably lose money doing that? Yes. But for me, at least from the just humanity point of view and my own personal satisfaction with what I do, it's so much better. And it, and it goes against everything our culture is pushing toward. But because our culture is pushing so far toward the automation and efficiency side, I think peoples unconsciously find it very refreshing to be like, oh my gosh, I can text this guy. Set up a time to call him. He's gonna spend 15 minutes with me on the phone. He answers my questions that I have. I always tell people, I don't ever tell people, like I never, I don't have a sales pitch. I always say, what's going on? What can I help you with? And they usually tell me, talk to me for five to 10 minutes about what's going on. Maybe ask a few follow up questions and then we book an appointment and it's like, I have no idea how to market or do a sales thing. But I think people that's in and of itself, people are like, oh, he actually like, clearly cares enough to not, I'm not just like a number on his spreadsheet. And, and that is true. Like I don't view people that way. And I think people actually feel that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. And, and it, what's, what was funny was how much that I feel like that stands out now. And what I was questioning is I'm like, I don't feel like I'm doing anything special. And I don't feel like that should stand out, but it does. Which is kind of crazy to me. Which is true I think, across every profession because between Shelby and I, the different jobs we've worked at you, some other people I've talked to, it's, it's very clear in every profession. There are people that do that. The people that generally are the most well-respected, the people that are able to connect with people and generally those people are unhurried. It's, it's, it can look a lot of different ways. I will say for our dad, he's always two hours behind and people know that they're never gonna be in a hurry with him. And so they're willing to be two hours behind, which is, yeah, I mean that, I wanna pause on that.'cause people will literally sit in, they will sit in the waiting office for like 90 minutes, like actually, and be completely okay with it. Yeah. Because they know that they're gonna get the time. Mm-hmm. And that, that's kind of, I think that did that lesson resonated with me from learning from him in that sense is like, wow, people. Clearly care enough about this.'cause like most people are obviously pissed off when they have to wait 90 minutes for the doctor. So, but for me, in my office, I'm almost never running more than 15 minutes behind. But, and I'm kind of saying this out loud'cause I actually don't know how this happens, but very few people leave my office feeling like I'm in a rush. So there's something about how we, how you make someone feel cared for, that you can give'em five minutes or 30 minutes and they can still feel like you are seeing them as a person and addressing them in the way that they need to be addressed. So it's not even necessarily about the time. Right. We're not even saying you need to spend an hour with every person. It's, it's more about how do you view the time? Is it like, if I need, because there are some patients, if I need to stay in there an hour, I'm will. It's almost having the heart to be like, if this conversation needs to be an hour, I will stay in here an hour. It can be, yeah. But it can also be five minutes and really connecting. Yeah. It's not, yeah, it's not the length of time. It's uh, I actually, I actually tell people on the phone, I'm like, a lot 45 minutes roughly, but I don't do time. Yeah. And, and which is, which is, uh, people, once people find that I don't do time based things, they usually get fascinated. And that's one of the things that I get inquired about the most. But I agree. It's, it the conversa, like that's the most important part. And to try to extend things to last a certain amount of time or to quicken things, to shorten to an amount of time, people feel that. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. And I mean, I know how many times I've been in appointments and I've felt it, and I'm like, this really, this really sucks. Like I wish you could just slow down. And it's like, I get it.'cause I know they probably have a mandate to see 40 people that day, but it's like. You just feel completely unseen and unheard and like, I drove 45 minutes to get to this office and waited 30 minutes and then I get seen for five minutes by a rushed professor. You know? And it's just like, yeah, for sure. It's, it's tough. And again, I understand it because that's our culture, but I think that's kind what we're trying to fight against. Right. And in this first part, I think we wanna just bring in as many perspectives of people. We've read articles, we've read personal experiences, different professions, and, and if I had to summarize it, it would be like, we're trying to show you the danger of this, what, what I would call an idol, this thing that we hold up as an ultimate goal to achieve because we think that will bring us the fulfillment or the enjoyment or the happiness we're looking for. And I just love this quote that summed it up and this person was talking about how what we do is anytime we hold something up, it allows us to have this, this fantasy of how it's actually going, or how it's actually gonna end up, because we're not there yet. Right. It's always ahead. Mm-hmm. So you can always. Create this picture. It's sort of like when you're dating or when you're single and you want to be dating and you create this person in your mind of who you are gonna date, or if you're dating and then you're like really infatuate the person. And then you get married and you've created this idea of how it's gonna be in marriage. And then you get there and you're like, but then once you're there, you're there. It's like reality. It goes from fantasy to reality. Right. And you have to deal with the reality of how it's different from that. Yeah. Expectation you set up. And so this quote says, it's better to cherish an ideal fantasy than to resign oneself to reality with its limitations and unpredictability. And basically just saying that so many people would rather be like, AI's gonna fix everything. Or I'm just gonna keep trying to my, try to make my life more and more efficient because eventually I'll get to this, this place right where it, it's gonna be exactly the way I envision it. And it's better to live with this like fake hope than is to confront the reality of like, oh, I actually have to say no to things. Or I actually. Have to be inefficient on purpose to have a deep relationship with someone. Yeah. And I just love that quote because I really think at the end of the day, for a lot of people, it's actually the fear to step into being intentionally inefficient that holds in back because you, you do have to give up a, it's the culture's pushing against you so hard. Yeah. Every social media ad, every hook, every video, all these people's lifestyles, all their routines, that that's all you see. Right? It's that current that we're talking about. What does a current do? If you ever stand in the ocean, there's a current Yeah. It's just pulls. Yeah. It pulls you down the beach. You don't even notice you're gone until you look up and your family's half a mile away and you're like, wow. It's a strong current, right? Yeah. It's, it's literally become our, I, I think I could make the argument that it's become our culture's highest value, which therefore has made it the king of our, our culture right now is, is how can we make things more automated, more efficient, so that we can be. You know, lazier and get more things done. Like, those are kind of the two, the two idols. I think, and you kind of mentioned this, but I just to emphasize it, almost everything that's like genuinely important in life that actually holds value is inefficient. Mm-hmm. And, and like when you think about relationships, I know for you, raising children that couldn't be more inefficient spend like doing good work actually learning things. I was actually doing some research today on like the learning processes and literally the whole message was, it's more inefficient at first in order to become obviously better and, and retain things more. And so it's like all of almost everything that is good and holds weight and holds value, there's an element of inefficiency to it. And. It's just the complete opposite. And so, and, and it's hard to, to go in that direction right now'cause you have to become aware of it or else you will be the person who ends up two miles down on the beach and then be like, wait, what happened to my life? It's, it was David Epstein as newsletter before Last Race talking about that MIT or Harvard study with, with Chad, GPT. And the point that this study was looking at is whether you can learn as well by just using AI generated learning such as GPT or similar or if there is a value to doing the inefficient learning first, where you're really kind of struggling with the material and then using AI to help you afterwards. And, and the difference in learning and retention and the data is exactly what you expect me to say based on this conversation so far. But there was almost no learning or retention in the people that used AI first to try to write an essay or summarize their thoughts versus the people that were inefficiently trying to write and struggle through rough drafts. They had ex. Extremely high levels of retention, even after they used AI for their second draft to help them summarize things, clean things up. But because they had struggled with it at first in an efficient way, they actually retained and learned it. And I think that's, uh, I think all of this is a really, a discussion of trade-offs. There. There's, by being more productive, you think you're being more productive, but in the long term, if I have to go reread a book three times to learn something, am I really being more productive? Well, probably not, right? I'm, but the trade off, we don't think about the trade off that we're making by being an efficient now to actually have deep learning that is retained or deep work that is meaningful, or deep relationships that are longstanding. Like if I have to go make a new friend all the time, that's also not, you know, if I think I have 50 friends, but I'm having turnover every week because I can't sustain a friendship, it's like that also is a trade off that you're just not aware of. Yeah. Just one thought I had on that was in the, I think it was 2024. I think I read three books and, but I, but it was because every book hit me so hard that I was like, I have to just stop. I, like, I, I would like read 10 pages and then just like, stop and just be like, I have to let this sink in and I have to like, meditate on this before I move on because I, I can't just keep going. Like, the concept was super, and it's like, what's crazy about that is I probably read less than, you know, a lot of people, especially in like academia in my profession, but I, I remember those three books and use concepts from them almost every day. And like that is so much more powerful than had I read 20 and not remembered them. Mm-hmm. And, and, and like. I didn't obviously used to do that. So, you know, that's kind of a newer concept for me. But it's, it's so much better because I'm like, I actually know that book. I know the content from it, and I've like, actually took time to like, implement the concepts into my life. And so now they're, even if I don't necessarily remember like the exact quotes and stuff, like those concepts are ingrained into the habits because I took the time to pause, experiment with them, put'em in, into my, you know, daily routine. And so anyway, it's just, it's just kind of a, an extension of what you were talking about. Yeah. Oh, there's something you said that was so good that I wanted to piggyback off of, but then I got distracted by a text classic. Always put your phones on do not disturb. Speaking of efficiency yeah, I think. This is always a fun experiment. I, so what I always tell people to do this is such a good, is I always start, I, so I'm gonna repeat what I said and it'll hopefully ring a bell. I always, I love doing this. This is an on podcast experiment we're doing right now. So I was talking about how I read, read three books a year and during those I, I, I felt like I actually got more out of it. Oh, I know that you, yeah. Perfect. See, this is real life experiments. So our family always makes fun of me for this thing I'm about to say, which is, it's taken different forms over the years. But usually after I read a book, I used to have note cards, I would go back. So what I do is I highlight is I read a book so that I don't get distracted. I have to keep stopping. So I'll read however many pages I'll highlight, and then what I do is I go back through the book and basically I will either take notes. In college, I made PowerPoints of books I read, and now I. Shout out. Remarkable. Pat, if you wanna sponsor us, just send us. I know, I'm trying. I think we try. It's crazy. I use it every day. I love that thing. We've, I've gotten, sorry, I've probably gotten five people to buy these things. I know. Remarkable. Pat, you really are missing out on some business here. It is so good. Like I don't need aur, I don't need anything else. It's the best. It's of the best. You can use it for everything and they keep updating it. So you can bring PDFs, you can connect it to Yeah, I use, it's just so use every day for work. Anyway. Damn it. Remarkable. Yeah, we emailed them and they didn't even respond. Small fish in a big pond. But yeah, now I just take, I go through, I take these extended notes on all the books I read and it's so fun. Like for this podcast, I knew I knew exactly where it was and it's so fun to have gone through a second time. Like, so a lot of that material's already in my head and the notes are just nice'cause I have specific quotes or specific things that really stuck out to me. And it's so nice for prepping for this'cause I'm like, man, that's such a fun concept, but it's also fun to go back and like reread it and just, and see how much it has actually sunk into your life in different areas. Because this is one of the, this efficiency thing is one of my biggest struggles. Or it was I, and I think some of that gets stripped away by like being married to Shelby, she's inherently, she loves her slow mornings. She's never really in a rush for the things I'm in rush for. She wants to be efficient in other things, in the things I don't. So it's really funny to see the ways we like, have helped each other in different areas of efficiency. But I, uh, yeah, I've really had to step back and, and be like, wow. If my kids just want to sit here all day, then that's like learning to be present and content with that verse. In Utah, a good day was wake up at six, go for a run, then go to the climbing gym, then go ski, you know, then go to a brewery at night. And now it, it was an efficient day and it was fun. But it also became this thing where to have a day that felt fulfilling, it had to be filled like that. Right, right. Or else you felt like you're wasting. It's because time's a commodity. I'm like, oh, I'm wasting time. Right. A lot of people feel that wasting time. Oh, you brought up, you brought up the concept. So this is gonna go way longer than we planned, but I don't care.'Cause I don't care about time. So you bring up, so I, I have two concepts. One is my schedules. Remember that? Yeah. And then, but this one you bring up the main flip that happened for me that was genuine, I don't use this term lightly, like life changing, is this idea between time scarcity, which almost everyone works under in our culture. Culture and society certainly does. Versus a time abundance mindset. Time scarcity basically says that time is a limited commodity. And we need to use it because we're constantly running out of it. Like the, the longer we live, the less, less time we have, so therefore we need to make use of it. And we can, by that definition, waste time. Mm-hmm. Because it's limited. Right. And the, the opposite approach, which is highly recommend, is the time abundance mindset, which is understanding how unlikely it was for you to even be here in the first place in that you've come together, lived however many years you are now, and that that is by far more than you probably deserve anyway. And there can be a spiritual component to this too, of like, we don't deserve any amount of time. So like anything is a, is a bonus and what that it's so freeing to do that, to be like, wow, okay. So now I'm thankful for all the time that I have had, all the experiences I have had in, in a continuous gratitude for Okay, the more time I am here. Awesome. And then if I get gifted more time, which I'm not guaranteed, and that's okay because I've already acco, I've already been, I almost used the word chronic accomplished, I don't wanna use that word. I've already lived probably more than I deserve anyway, and more than so therefore, it's like, it just comp, it just flips everything. I, I think it, it inherently slows you down because you, there's no such thing as wasting time when you're in, like when you're playing with house time mm-hmm. At the, like, house money essentially of like, wow. I mean, the ch the chances of, of being born, the chances of making it to 30 years old. Like it's astronomical when you like actually look at the statistics and the math and it's like, why do I feel like I deserve 50 more years when that's just, there's no guarantee. So why should I act like it is? Yeah. I'm glad you brought this up, because it'll allow us to argue a little bit. I, I'm not sure who starred this concept, but it also came up in 4,000 weeks and this is one of the areas where I disagreed with him a little bit which is super fun reading a book and going back and forth in your mind about what you agree and disagree with. But the one thing I will say that I totally agree with from what you're saying is that there's this idea that you to have a life that meant something. There's a certain amount of like stuff that you need to have done that that's really how my default mindset was. And I think most people, and that's how you get a scarcity, is like you have a scarcity when you feel like there's a certain number of things that need to be done or seen or experience for the life to have been lived well. Right. And so I do, that's the part I really do agree with of like. That's, that is a, a false assumption that leads you to always feel like you're wasting time because you have this mental checklist or those bucket list things and you feel like if you don't do that, then that's a life that's been wasted or not lived. Well to hear the second part of this, you're gonna have to tune in for part two though. And, uh, wow. We see you in two weeks. I love it.