Fitz Cahall: States of Adventures & Finding Yourself By Getting Lost

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Fitz Cahall—founder of The Dirtbag Diaries and co-founder of Duct Tape Then Beer—joins me to trace a life built around curiosity, craft, and the wild. We get into the nomadic childhood that pushed him outdoors, the dog-mauling that forged resilience, discovering climbing in Seattle, and the early podcasting leap that turned unsold magazine stories into a movement. We talk States of Adventure (DK), how to choose stories that reflect a lifetime outdoors, making inclusive adventure culture, and the 50-day Sierra traverse with Becca that reset his compass. We also explore creative stamina, running a mission-driven studio, and building family identity through shared time outside—plus Alex Honnold, Climbing Gold, and where audio can still surprise us.

What you’ll learn

• How childhood instability became a foundation for autonomy, authenticity, and adventure
• The moment podcasting “clicked” and scaled from 30 friends to thousands overnight
• Anatomy of States of Adventure: selecting 30 stories that mirror a life lived outside
• Why inclusive, everyday adventures expand the ecosystem (burro racing, rollerblading Iowa, etc.)
• Sustaining creative passion for 18 years without burning out
• Designing a family life that keeps mountains and forests in the calendar

Memorable threads

• The power of medium choice: audio stories at the length they need
• Craft over clout: playful branding as a filter for the right partners
• Lessons from a stormy, illness-riddled, unforgettable Sierra crossing
• Curiosity as a daily practice—for interviews, parenting, and purposeful work

Resources & links mentioned

• The Dirtbag Diaries — https://www.dirtbagdiaries.com
• Duct Tape Then Beer — https://www.ducttapethenbeer.com
• States of Adventure (DK) — https://www.dk.com
• National Geographic — https://www.nationalgeographic.com
• This American Life — https://www.thisamericanlife.org
• Climbing Gold (with Alex Honnold) — https://www.climbinggold.com
• Alex Honnold — https://www.alexhonnold.com
• Grand Canyon (NPS) — https://www.nps.gov/grca
• Yosemite (NPS) — https://www.nps.gov/yose
• RAGBRAI (Iowa cross-state ride) — https://www.ragbrai.com
• Pack Burro Racing — https://www.packburroracing.org
  Episode takeaway

Adventure—as practice and culture—builds resilient creativity, community, and meaning when we protect curiosity and time outside.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Impact of a Life-Changing Trip
• 1:20 Introduction to The Adventure Diaries Podcast
• 1:43 Meet Fitz Cahall: A Journey Through His Early Life
• 3:48 The Influence of Constant Movement and the Outdoors
• 7:12 Overcoming Adversity: Fitz's Childhood Challenges
• 11:26 Discovering Climbing in University
• 17:17 The Birth of The Dirt Bag Diaries
• 18:06 The Passion for Storytelling and Podcasting
• 28:11 Creating a Creative Agency: Duct Tape Then Beer
• 31:04 The Inspiration Behind 'States of Adventure'
• 43:40 Reflecting on 18 Years of Storytelling
• 44:36 Visual Storytelling and Existential Crises
• 46:48 Balancing Creativity and Adventure
• 50:34 Memorable Adventures in the Sierra
• 58:00 Family Adventures and Work-Life Balance
• 1:03:24 Future Projects and Creative Endeavors
• 1:05:24 The Climbing Gold Podcast with Alex Honnold
• 1:12:46 Closing Thoughts and Advice

Transcript

 That was, that trip was kind of this like big, kind of like hard reset where we sort of drew a boundary of what mattered to us in our life, where we were gonna have this be a part of it. And that was like a really impactful thing for us to go do at that moment. And, uh, it's really easy to come up with a million reasons why you can't do something.

But when an idea comes along and you find yourself ruminating on it over and over again, treat it seriously you wouldn't ignore. If, if, if a person came to you like that and was like, Hey, here's this thing, you wouldn't ignore them forever. You'd sit down and you'd give them a chance to listen and think it through.

So if there's things that you're thinking about that you would like to do or try in the outdoor world, or an adventure you'd like to take, or a trip you'd like to have, or even just reconnecting with an old friend in a certain way, take a moment. I figure out how to do it because you will not regret it.

You will not regret that. I remember that day of being like, I think I get to do this. I think this is like, I think this is a door has just opened and I'm gonna go walk through that and I, I don't know what it is 'cause no one's really done it before, but I'm gonna go see, and 

I, I did. Welcome to the Adventure Diaries podcast, where we share tales of adventure, connection, and exploration from the smallest of creators to the larger than life adventures.

We hope their stories inspire you to go create your own extraordinary adventures. And now your host, Chris Watson. 

Welcome to another episode of The Adventure Diaries. Today we're joined by Fitz Cahall, writer climber, and the creative force behind the duck bag di. For nearly two decades, Fitz has been shaping how we experience adventure stories, bringing voices from the outdoors to listeners across the world.

Fitz's, early years were defined by constant moves and long stretches of time alone, where the outdoors became both an escape and a playground. That freedom and curiosity later found new expression in Seattle where climbing merged his passion for writing and storytelling. Fitz went on to co-found the Creative Studio, duct Tape, then Beer, which launched the Duck Bag Diaries podcast, and then the Climbing Gold Podcast with Alex Honnold.

And most recently, Fitz has published States of Adventure, a captivating book with 30 outdoor adventure stories to help you find yourself by getting lost. So settle in and enjoy this fantastic conversation with the Adventure podcasting. Pioneer Fitz Cahall. Fitz Cahall, welcome to the Adventure Diaries. How are you?

I'm 

doing great. Thanks for having me. 

No, it's, it's a pleasure. It's an honor. I'm really excited having listened to the Dirt Bag Diaries on and off for a number of years at. It's a bit surreal, I must admit. Like seeing it in he, yeah, hearing it in in person. So firstly, thank you. We'll get the fanboy stuff out the way.

What we want to talk about, what we'll get to Fitz is, is this fantastic book, the States of Adventure, th Outdoor Adventure Stories and finding yourself by getting Lost the tagline. So we'll come to that, but. I want to understand a little bit more about, you know, fits your early life, you know, your formative experiences, and, and we'll build up to your adventures, expeditions, and then we'll get into the book.

So I believe were, were you born over in the East coast in Connecticut, but, but you're now over in pen Pacific North? No, you 

know, as I, as a kid, I grew up all over the place and we just had this kind of wild thing. So I was actually born on a, a little, like a farm in the Central Valley in California. So I'm like a California, like I still go back and I like something taps into like the, the smells and all that, but my family ended up moving around quite a bit and I just, I like it, it just worked out that way.

We lived in a lot of different places and because of that, a lot of times I spent. Time by myself, you know, like I would have friends, but like sometimes like we'd move and you'd be like, I have a whole summer, I don't know anyone here and everyone's outta school. Or, you know, I write and, and for me, like my family wasn't a very outdoorsy family, but like my escape or my way of dealing with some of that was to go spend out time outside.

And sometimes I'd just be like getting on my bike and just being like riding to the other side of the, the town we lived in or you know, in some places we kind of like, there was like a set of really awesome woods with like, stream and, you know, all these kind of like old kind of like. It was like, they used it as like a old munition dump at some point.

So there was like all this like old random like military equipment out of, it's probably not stuff kids should have been playing on, but that was my world is I very much, was, was one of those kids that, you know, my generation, I had two working parents, you know, I kind of like, that was my escape was going out and being outside and doing that.

So I lived all over the place and, and for me that kind of just grew into part of what I was interested in. Even though I wasn't necessarily, like, my parents were not, you know, we didn't go camping. We didn't, we weren't like a, we didn't ski, we didn't do do anything like that. But for me there was just this like really low baseline of being like, as a kid I was really happy climbing a tree.

I was really happy in the woods. I was like really happy moving and that was, that really carried through a lot of my childhood into my adult years. 

Did you settle any, when you were growing up then, were you always on the move or did you settle anywhere that kinda became home? 

No, we were like always on the move.

Like real realistically, we were like on the move quite a bit. It was like maybe three years in one place, four years in one place was kinda like the max and sometimes it was less than that. And so we were, we were definitely like, it, there was a lot of, you know, it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot of like more personal lessons rather than outdoors lessons.

But, you know, it was, yeah, it was, it was just like, you kind of like pick up, we'd go somewhere new and it would be like pretty far. Sometimes we'd be moving across the country, so it, it was, it was this, it helped develop, I think now as an adult, like my sense of home, you know, like what I care about and what I value.

But at the time it was, it was a wild process of having to be like. You know, uncomfortable, you know, in a way, you know, like you'd be like, oh man, I gotta start over, do this whole thing again. And you know, but you learn how to do it as a kid. And so I think some of that, it, it, it was formative. 

What was it difficult making friends or, or kinda connections in, in that sense?

Or 

do you know? One of the things, I think that it's funny, like I've never really talked about this, like on a podcast, I certainly would talk about it with friends and whatnot, but I think the one thing that it taught me was, you know, I would move somewhere. And when I was a, when I was a little very young kid, I was actually like, had a really bad accident and I was mauled by a dog, our family dog.

And, you know, my like face was paralyzed for a while and. Nothing grew right on my face as I, as I got bigger and grew up. Like I basically had all the scar tissue. And so I would have, I had to have this kind of like a, like a surgery or some sort of, you know, plastic surgery or operation every few years, either on my eye area or like on my face.

As I grew, as, I actually like physically grew, like they had to kind of help my face grow too. And so I had to go through this process of growing up where, you know, I was moving around quite a bit and at the same point I was like also the kid that maybe had a kind of like a patch over his face or, you know, I'd have to like, kind of like wear that really like white zinc sunblock so that, you know, like the scar tissue wouldn't get worse or something like that.

And it obviously, you know, kids, kids can be kids and it produced very different reactions. So sometimes I would go to a place. And I would be really popular at school and sometimes I would go to a place and I would not be popular at school, and I would be picked on. And it was this weird thing and it would happen.

And I realized, like I, I grew up with the, I grew into the idea of basically you just gotta be yourself. Like you have to do the things that make you happy and you can't really worry what other people think of you that aren't close to you. And that was like a really impactful thing to actually learn at a, at a young age where it just was this, this, this reality of in one place you get called a nerd in one place.

You're a cool kid. What does that mean? Have you changed? Have you acted any differently? And the answer was no. And so I sort of like had the sense that some of that, some of that ways that we chase status in life. Were actually pretty hollow and didn't really matter to me that much. And that in a way gave me, you know, while it was a difficult thing to go through, it also gave me like a lot of confidence in what I was interested in and how I pursued it.

And it made me unapologetic too, in a way. And I, you know, wish that I hadn't gone through that, you know, as a human. But at the same point, like it's, it's my like, lived experience, like what I did. And so I think that when it got time, you know, later in life to be like, I'm gonna go do this weird thing that, you know, my family doesn't understand, no one else understands.

I, I like, I'm like very passionate about this climbing lifestyle, about the outdoor lifestyle, you know, instead of, of trying to. Make a lot of money or, or seek out stability in life. I was very much like, Nope. I'm just, I like this thing. I believe there's something here. I'm gonna go do it. Because to me, this seems like it's closer to what I value than say, you know, just, just going a, a standard route through life.

And I don't, I, I mean that with no sort of cockiness or like superiority, it just was, that was what happened to me is like I saw it and I, I just, you know, I, I believe that there was something there. Yeah, 

yeah. Yeah. I, I mean that's 'cause not when things like that happen to people in their kinda formative years, not everyone kinda reacts that way.

So it is, you know, to have that kinda self-awareness and, you know, to use it as a tool to, to do harder, bold things. And, uh, that's, that, that is a great example. What, when did climbing come into to all of that then? 

Oh, it was, it was like, really, for me, that was university. Like, I'd sort of like, maybe I'd kind of like played around on a boulder with a pair of climbing shoes, but it was really in university where I was in Seattle.

Seattle has a great climbing community and the actually the, I think the first gym in America was, was here, so it's always had this great sort of good climbing community. We obviously have the cascade mounds here, and there was a big part of why I came to Seattle, to the university here, and I just was like, oh, this is this.

It just clicked like right away. I was like, I, I was interested in hiking. I ran, I, I, you know, fished, I like, had done other outdoor stuff at that stage in my life on my own and figured things out. But the climbing side, just at that stage, just, I was good at it outta the gate or, or not, not great at it, but like I had some sort of.

Predisposition to it in terms of, you know, how my body was built and, and my body type. And it was awesome. I just was like, it, it was pretty head over heels. And I'd say with it, you know, by the time, by the time I graduated from university, I was thinking on, oh, I can use this as a tool for exploring the world, for exploring my own inner geography, what's inside of me.

And I can, I can use it just as this awesome vehicle for self-expression and discovery and curiosity. And within four years, like I, I was abroad, you know, and, and climbing and doing trips and you know, pushing myself, obviously like on an athletic level. But I also just, I love the culture of it. I saw that whole side of it.

I saw that there was something really unique about it, how you could go, you know. Pretty much anywhere that had a climbing community and be accepted into it at that stage. And it was much smaller at that stage than it is today. And, and I hope it's still the same way, you know, for like a, a 22-year-old that is like, yeah, scrapping together enough money for a plane ticket somewhere.

But at that stage it was really, it was really pretty neat. Yeah. 

See the kinda genesis of that, did, did you fall into that or did you have a plan? Were you going to university or to college to study anything? Or, or, and this happened, what, what was your, what was your plan about? Yeah. No, there 

wasn't much of a plan.

Yeah, yeah. No, no. It wasn't like that would gimme a lot of credit. No. There, there was not a lot of plan. I knew that I, I, I knew that I liked writing, like I was good at writing and so I, you know, pretty short, pretty early into university. I kind of like. I was like, oh, I, I like writing. I need to figure out a, a way to, you know, make a living doing something along those lines.

And so I studied journalism here, you know, and I studied a lot of different types of, you know, I took creative writing classes too, but the journalism was what I ended up gravitating towards. And I thought I would end up being, you know, like one of my first sort of like apprenticeships or, or big paid internships was like covering state politics.

So I thought I would just end up in the newspaper world. And, and the reality was that luckily enough for me, there was a pretty big downturn in media when I graduated and there was a lot of reshuffling of the newspaper world. And so I didn't, I didn't necessarily, basically I had the job lined up and that fell through and I ended up piecing stuff together through freelance and then just writing about what I knew.

And, and so I, I would try to do more serious journalism, but then I would also do journalism. About the outdoors, and I realized like there was space to bring those two things together.

Serendipitous. What, what, what were your kinda influences from like, kinda reading, you said you studied creative writing, like climbing magazines. Were, were you reading climbing magazines? What, what were, were you consuming that type of content or were you just Oh, 

oh, 100%. Yeah. I like for me, um, I. Certainly grew up reading National Geographic.

Like I grew up with that as like a part of my world. And I still to this day, like my, my boys are watching, you know, some of the, the more recent nature shows that David Attenborough has been, you know, has narrated in. And, and so that was like a, definitely like a part of my world. And yeah, certainly like I was reading, you know, the climbing magazines or, you know, I was, I was reading climbing literature or sort of adventure literature.

Like I saw that there was a really powerful kind of storytelling component to these communities that was like always a part of it. And yeah, I read, I read a lot. I was a voracious reader in terms of that stuff. And I, you know, it gave you a sense like at least there's an ability to kind of like have this path through it.

And then. On the other hand too, like I was just really interested in radio as well. Like I, I thought there was like some really creative stuff starting to happen in, in like audio storytelling and just even storytelling in general. Like there was, you know, like you could go to a ranch, small theater here in Seattle and people would be like doing these story nights where they'd tell a story or something like that.

So there was like this, this thing out there that wasn't, and that wasn't necessarily related to the outdoors by any means, but there was just something where there were people putting together these cool ideas of like how you could really transport somebody through, through audio, through writing, through all that.

And I just saw that there was like a, an opportunity to do that in the outdoor world. 

And how do you go from that to launching the Dirt Bag Diaries, which has been going for what, 17, 18? It 

just, you know, it turned, it turned. Actually, lemme just double check. It turns 18 years today. Oh, excellent. Yeah.

Congratulations. 

Yeah. Thank God, the OG of Adventure Podcasting. Yeah. And that is, I'm, I'm still pinching myself sitting, sitting here. Yeah. Hoping to do this justice, but yeah. Congratulations. What you five, 600 episodes or something must be 

normal. I think we're close to 400. It's hard for us to Totally, yeah.

400. 'cause it, the, how we, how we count it has always been a little bit different. But yeah. We're, I think we're technically at 400 or almost at 400 pure episodes. I think. I 

thinking what, what, what's your passion levels like now compared to maybe 10 years ago? 

Oh, that's a great question. I. Love, like I was thinking about this this morning.

I had a really busy week and it was like a little hectic and we're working on a bunch of different stories and you know, something was like, something went a little sideways and I ended up with kind of like a really busy little bit, I wouldn't say stressful day, but like just a busier day where I had to do stuff I didn't think I'd have to do.

And I still love putting stuff, like turning a bigger idea and shaping it and, and making it impactful to the point where it could make somebody laugh or it could make somebody, you know, think about big things in their own life or cry or whatever it is. I genuinely love the act of. Doing that with words and audio and you know, in the past, you know, I've made films too with film too.

I love that process of going through and turning something into something that, that's interesting and then getting it to the stage where it becomes both interesting and super impactful. And that's a, that to me is, I, I still have a lot of passion for that, you know, and, and that's, that's there, you know, the, the, I think if I, this is not an easy thing to do, you know, this is not like professionally, nationally, being, you know, outdoor creative.

We have a business, there's like employees, it, this is not, we're not getting rich doing this. And it's a hard thing to do. And so I think that the reality is, if I didn't have that. 95% or 90% of the time, there's no way we would still be doing this. And, and I think that there, they're, I'm very cognizant of that, of if this goes, it's too hard.

It's just like too tricky of a thing to do financially. And, and it's, it takes a lot, it takes a lot of willpower, it takes a lot of all that. So if I don't love it, it probably needs to end pretty quickly. Yeah. Like realistically, 

that's amazing. But I love it. 

I'm here. 

Yeah. And I think the parallels in that to degree fits 'cause, and I will openly, my, I had a very stressful day today and this week in fact, but then, and this is the second session that I've done this week.

And when I just get prepared when I sit down an hour before this is about to come on and I'm just revisiting my notes and getting prepared and listening for it, it just fills my heart and my, my head. I just, just, it just, it makes me realize why I do it. I just love the stories. I love the connection with it.

Yeah. And I love the impact that, that this has on other people and you know, you know, trying to craft that conversation frame or that narrative through it and bring some of these nuggets to life. It's, yeah, I, I, I love it as well. And it's, it's great to hear you talk like that as well. It's, yeah. Yeah. 

I think what, what, and I, and I love too, I like the talk, I love the interviewing side of it too.

Like that side I like, I love, I love esp especially, there's just something that happens, like when you start asking questions and mm-hmm. And that will like, never cha you know, even if I, even if my job changes, like that passion for learning about people or learning about this world that is like so very core.

To who I am and it, it lights me up. And you seem the same way. You know, you're like, oh, I'm just, I'm just curious. I want to know. And I love that. 

And I, and I think that's what kind of makes these shows kinda great to an extent because it is that curiosity. 'cause you can prepare and you, but then you start unraveling and then you get into these little things and I can have the same conversation with someone that's done, you know, a, you know, a claim of whatever, or a first ascent and, and have a completely different conversation and unravel and unearth little things that, that, that then I'm, I'm ruminating on for days later just thinking about it and just like when I'm lying in bed at night, it's just, yeah.

It's, it's, it's a phenomenal art form that Yeah. It, it really is. It, it really is. What, what was it like when you'd done it for the first time? Because you wouldn't, podcasting back then Still growing as a, as a medium today, but back then there wasn't, wasn't a lot mainstream. Attention on that. How did you go about getting your first episode out and what was the reaction to that?

Mm-hmm. And what, what, I suppose thirdly, what made you keep doing it? Yeah, 

yeah. Well, there, so at this time I started, there were probably, there's probably less than a thousand podcasts when I started, maybe even less than 500. It was pretty early. There were, for me, I was like, what I saw happening in that world is that people were able to like, take, like, I also loved music.

And so there was like, good, there's some good music shows that were happening of people like, oh, these are like the 10 bands to look out for. And, and there was, you know, this very formative show too, that was on our public radio station called This American Life. And they were, they were like on the podcast side really early.

We're gonna put it out there, we're gonna do this. And what I saw there too. Was because like there was regular radio, but podcasting, you didn't need to worry about fitting it into a half an hour block or into an hour long block or into a se. It didn't matter how long you could make a story be the length it needed to be.

And so that was wicked at that moment in time. I was writing for a bunch of magazines, 2006, 2007, kind of like, and, and it was, I basically, what happened is that, you know, I went and I went to go do my taxes and freelance journalism was like hard. And I, I had had the best year I'd ever had. I'd sold more stories than I'd ever sold, and then I went and did my taxes and I looked at it and I was like, I made less money than I made last year.

Like, how did that happen? And then I went through and I realized, oh, all these magazines just quietly started paying me less and. Like I, I wasn't paying attention to that. And, and it was this sort of moment where I was like, oh man, I don't, I, I'm not gonna be able to raise a family. I'm not, you know, gonna be able to make writing work for me.

And I, in my mind, I just knew I needed to evolve. And I wouldn't necessarily say that. I was like, I'm gonna give up writing, but I was like, I need to go do something else. This path isn't working. And for me, I was like, well there's podcasting. What I should do is I should just start a podcast and I should take these stories that I have that haven't sold, that I really love that I think are great because I would sell stories, but they would be about big name athletes or big name, you know, professional outdoor people.

And those stories would sell. But like I had all these other wonderful stories about these people in our community that I thought were awesome. But no magazine editor would take it. 'cause they're like, we've never heard of this person. Who cares? And I was like, what do you mean? Who cares? This is a good story.

So I just was like, Hey, I need something to do. I need to help my resume or show that I love these things. And so I just, I started, I just started making these stories and it was like, it was all like very do it yourself. Like it was very, you know, like you had to do, you actually had to like code stuff and, you know, which was not my background, but I would cobble it together based on a MA message board and I was able to get.

These stories out that I, that mattered a lot to me. And really quickly, I think it was probably the second episode, I was like, okay, I've, I've made two, I can tell people about this. And the second episode, I, I sent out an email to my, you know, 30 friends and I was like, Hey, hey, I've done something. I started this thing.

And, you know, it was, at least at that stage, you could see data, you could see like the people were listening to it, which obviously can now too. But then it was kinda like, oh, okay. So I sent it out to 30 people. And you know, by the end of the day, most of my friends listened to it, you know, 30 people listened to it.

And then the next day it was like 300 people listened to it. And then the next day it was like 3000 people had listened to it. And I knew that in that moment, like my life had changed. I was like, I had very clear that I remember that day of being like, I think I get to do this. I think, I think this is, I think this is like a door has just opened.

And I'm gonna go walk through that and I, I don't know what it is 'cause no one's really done it before, but I'm gonna go see, and I, I did, you know, and 

it's such a captive because if you're writing for magazines, you know you're selling that article. It may, I mean, it's going to get published, but you don't really know who, who picks that magazine up and pays attention.

Yeah. 'cause you know for sure 3000 people have made the decision to download and listen to that on a flight or in a car. And they're listening to every word that you say. It must, it's such a, it's such a, it's a, it's such a weird thing. I, I'm, I, I don't deny, I'm constantly checking analytics. 'cause I just still can't quite believe that you get people in countries, you know, that are so far flung that sitting to, to listen to the show, it's such a real thing.

But, and if you'd done that, you know, 18 years ago, it's crazy. It's crazy. And it's still, it's still going strong today. So kudos. That's amazing. Really is. Yeah. What, what was your back then, when, how did you go? Because you, you, you've then created a creative agency, haven't you? You've got your, is it duct tape then beer as well?

Yeah. Where did that We have 

duct tape, then beer, which is like our, our parent, because so many of the things we were doing at that stage were pretty. They were pretty forward. And I didn't, you know, obviously, like I saw that something amazing was happening with the Dirt Bag diaries, but it was a pretty like unclear path, how you were gonna make money doing that.

And we were making some money, like almost right outta the gate. Like we were, we within three, three or four shows we had advertisers. And it wasn't like a lot of money, but I was like, okay, cool. How do we do this? So I think that basically what happened is, is I, we did create a, a parent company that, that, 'cause we didn't know what it would become, whether the dirt, the dirt bag, how long the dirt bag diaries could go for.

There was, at that stage, people were like, podcasting is a fad and it'll burn out. And you know, this will be done in two years. So you just had, we had no idea. So Duct tape and beer evolved out of that. And it is, it's been this, you know, they're, they're all connected together, but it's, it's a thing that holds our podcasts and the rest of our work.

Where does the name come from for the creative agency? What, what's the story behind that? Oh, 

there we were, like, working on figuring out how to name it, and we were sitting around the table with dear friends and my, my wife was like, making fun of me and, and my process of, of like how I might deal with the thing sometimes.

And she's, you'll just deal with it with duct tape and then you'll drink a beer, you know? And, and our our dear friends were like, oh no, it's, it's duct tape. You know, it's, and someone was like, duct tape and beer. And then our friends were like, no, no, no. It has to be a process, so it's duct tape, then beer.

You know? So there's an order to it. And I remember at the time, like, all of us being like, do we really name a company this? You know, is anyone really going to, is this a good idea? You know, is are people gonna take you seriously? And. You know, it turned out to be a, a really good icebreaker, and people you knew right away whether people got a chuckle out of it, whether they were gonna jive with you, you know, or not.

And it tended to be like a really good filter for who we might wanna work with in terms of like, how seriously they were. Like, we were doing really serious, we were doing impactful, like, serious things with like lots of money. But I think that that it, it, you know, at times you're kind of like, well, how seriously do we all take ourselves?

And that was just a, that there was like, that lightheartedness, I think just stayed, stayed throughout it. 

Yeah. It's, well, it's a, it's definitely a conversation starter, so it's mm-hmm. Love that. Thanks. So can I sh shift in lanes a little bit then back to the, so we're gonna come onto the book, state, state of adventure.

Wh why the book and why now? 

That's a good question. You know, we, through time we'd been approached of a, a couple times about, about doing books. And I always see it seemed like I wasn't done. Like it wasn't done. It didn't, you know, people come to us like, do, would you wanna do a book? You know, could you, could you turn this show into a book?

And, and, and, you know, I think we, we attempted to do it and it, it, we just said no, you know, I, I don't know. Like, we were just like, we were busy doing the things we wanted to do versus reflecting on them. And I think this time when DK approached us with this idea, I realized how much we had done and it felt like.

A little bit of a better time to try something like this. And the way, and how they approached it and like what they wanted to help us make, we were, we were into that idea where it's, you know, it's not like a travel book, it's not like a guidebook. It's, it is, it's almost like this awesome template for, you know, what a life lived outdoors can look like.

And, you know, they, they did an incredible job with the photography on the, the side of it. And, you know, we were, we were blown away about what they, and, and they let me write, it's not just, it like has a feel of a coffee table book, but they actually let us, like, really, and they let like our whole sort of, you know, like they, we included other people that have been on the show that wrote essays for it.

And I really appreciated their kind of, they, they got it. It was like. There's this, you know, they, they got the assignment I felt like, where like they understood what we were trying to do and they were into making us like, or helping us kind of like make a book that fit that vision for what the show was.

So this time it just was like, sure, let's give it a whirl. And it was good to do for me. You know, it was like, it was good to reflect on all that. And because 18, 18 years of having doing one thing is is quite a lot. 

Yeah. 

It's like you wake up and you're like, I'm not 26 anymore. You know? Like I, I've lived a fair amount of life.

I've, I've had a lot of things happen and I have not always been the best at celebrating wins, if that makes sense. You know, like I, I just. It's kinda like we finished one thing and I just look to the next thing. And for this, this moment was actually like this ability to take a couple steps back and feel, feel proud of what we built and the types of stories we built and the version of our community that we presented and we opened up to others and, and I was proud of that.

I was proud of the work we'd done where we had created a more welcoming, you know, less sort of hero centric version of the outdoor world. And it's a 

tangible as well. It's, it's a tangible, it's things that, I don't know how to express this, but it's something that, because I, I read a lot and obviously through the show interview a lot as well and speak to, and it's just nice having something d you know, Dolan, Kingsley, I grew up reading a lot of their books that they had published.

You know, a lot of nature stuff. And, and I think what, what as, as silly as this may seem, but just like the. The glossy pages. Just, just something about that. It just, it was a bit nostalgic as well. 'cause I hadn't, I haven't had the day book for years. And I th I like the fact that it's not a climbing book either.

'cause I know there's a lot of, there is a lot of climbing stories and naturally there are climbing stories in it. But, you know, climbing, ski, hike, bike, paddle, and there's a lot of really cool stuff in it and things that I had never heard of before, like Boral racing, the donkey racing thing, which we'll probably come onto.

But it's a wonderful collection of stories that you can pick up and dip in and out to. I've, I probably had it for a few months, so firstly, thank you for, for sending it and. Like I say, I, I'll sit and wander in my mind with a coffee and look at it on occasion and come back to it and always come back to it so it's not like a one and done.

You read it and you, you know, and it goes back on the shelf. It seems to kinda sit there and I keep, keep going back to it and it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it does, it does make you think about a lot of things, you know, like the horse packing ex example just in Montana that, yeah, there's just some fantastic stories in it so that, yeah.

So the next question naturally is how did you select the 30 stories? What was the process for, for that, and how long was that process? 

Yeah, that, that process was quite a bit of work. Like, it was like, like I said, we're coming up at about 400 episodes total, and, and these are very, these kind of stories are very produced.

They're, they're stories we would work on for oftentimes, you know, like the, the shortest it takes, you know, start to finish on a project is a month for us. So we spend a lot of time working on, on these. Sometimes it's, sometimes it's been like something that's taken a year to pull off or something like that.

The. Going through, we, we knew we, what we, we ended up, we have a lot of, we have the international stories too, but I think we're just like, oh, for the sake of packaging and, you know, working there, let's keep this focus on stuff here in the states. And, and that also just 'cause so many of my adventures are, are here in states, it kind of allowed me to tap into a lot of the, the writing and the storytelling I've done about my own experiences as well.

So that kind of gave us some parameters, but it was hard, it was like a really difficult thing to go through and be like, alright, loosely, like we had this idea of let's make sure that we bring stories that reflect, you know, one our community, one that sort of diversity of ways that you can have an adventure.

Because I think that that term has broadened in a really good way in the last 20 years. And sometimes it's, you know, it doesn't necessarily look like a, an expedition to the Himalaya. It doesn't need to look like that. And so we wanted to create these, like different versions to give like what our idea of adventure is.

And, and then on the other side, we wanted to make sure that it represented, you know, the journey that people take through life with this, you know, where it's like they maybe just go from like a wild-eyed youth, you know, being like, oh my God, this is the most incredible thing I've ever experienced. To that deepening side that happens.

You know, if, if you live this life, you know, you, you understand that you're maybe gonna lose friends doing this, you understand that it's gonna be hard to, to balance passion with just the needs of, of day-to-day life, right? Like that, that's gonna be a trick. And then, you know, people evolve to the point where they also are like.

I wanna teach this or I wanna share this, whether it's with my kids or with students. And there's this sort of deepening of the whole thing. And so we wanted to make sure that the stories reflected that as well. So we kind of like took that, we tried to model like what our vision for like a, a life outdoors really looked like through time.

And then we took the stories and we tried to have them come from different parts of the country. And it was tough because I think sometimes, you know, there were like the Grand Canyon's, a perfect example. There's on, on our actual show, there's three or four standout stories that occurred in the Grand Canyon.

And that was pretty tough. 'cause there were, there was like, the Grand Canyon one was like one of the toughest bits because we didn't do two on the Grand Canyon. And that was like, oh, which one do we do this one or this one? And we ended up picking this, just the kayaking one about Abby Holcomb, who at that point was like a 13-year-old and she.

She beca, she, I think she became the youngest person to, to successfully run all the rapids or paddle the whole Grand Canyon and the Grand Canyon's. Rapids are huge. They're massive. They're like, they eat boat, like they eat giant raft boats. And she had this tiny little pink kayak and it almost looks like a toy when you see the photo.

Yeah. She like, 

that looks like a rubber ducky or 

something. Yeah, it does. And, and, and that story I love just because the heart of that, of this, of this, this spirit, you know, that she has at 13 years old is so clear. So com it comes off so well, and you know, like that was, that was a tough pick, but I think we, we picked, picked wisely on that one.

So there were, there were some pretty tough decisions to go through it, but we hope that we've, we've created like a, like, especially for some, especially if someone like, you know. In the UK opened up, like you get a pretty good sense for the range of different landscapes and what people are doing. Like another great example of one where you're like, traditionally it wouldn't necessarily fit in, but there's one about doing this.

There's a community bike ride that happens every year in Iowa, which is a place people, most people think it would be like devoid of adventure or adventure community. And every year all these people from Iowa, Iowans, they, they ride 500 miles across their state and it's like a moving party. 

And in that story, there's this story about this guy who's, I'm just gonna roller blade 

this thing and.

It's, it's, it's hilarious to me. But then the reality is that he since then has done these incredible, like, ultra 

rollerblading trips and he's an incredible athlete. And it stem out of this, I'm joining this moving bike party, but I'm doing it on roller blades. And it turned out to be really hard and 

it had all the elements that we love in a good adventure story.

But on, you know, at a glance it's goofy. Right? But yeah. Yeah, that's a great example of 

it does a, it does a really good, uh, really on earth, like unique, like you say, it broadens that the sense of the word adventure. 'cause it's not just hiking and, you know, first ascent, ascents in, in, you know, in the rum or the Himalaya and stuff like that.

You know, the example that I touched on there is, is it burrow or burrow? The donkey racing, for example, burrow hit up. Yeah. Burrow racing. Was it Marvin Mar? Marvin San Sandoval, I think it was. Yeah. Remember? Yeah. Marvin Sandoval Sandoval. No. 

That's a great, I had never heard of that when that story came to us.

Like I had never heard of that either. Like a, like a hundred percent. Like I was like, this is a thing. And, and it, yeah. It turns out that that's this, this wild thing that happens in Colorado actually happens a a, there's kind of a bunch of the Western states. 

How many is, how many is why they bought two and then he became a world champion like racer.

Yeah. All were these, these donkeys and some of them are so stubborn and it's such a, an act. An act trying to get, be patient with them and get 'em along for the ride and stuff. It's, yeah, it's, it's amazing. Yeah. And I think another one that I'd, I'd said, I called out as well as the, the horse parking. With, it was the lady Cat, was it Cat?

Cat? Cannel. Cannel. Through Montana. Mm-hmm. Grizzly. And that just, you know, she wanted to do something quite badass, I think was the, was the quote in it. And she trekked all the way through beer country against everyone's best advice and was singing hatred to, to, to alert the grizzlies that she was on. But it just, there's just phenomenal stories in it.

I would highly recommend anyone listening or watching pick up a copy and yeah, just, just let it take you away and inspire you to go and go and do something a little bit different as well. It's fantastic. On the story selection, did you have any who had final say on that? 'cause I know your wife was involved Becca, wasn't she?

In a lot of the story? 

Yeah. Yeah. This, the Dirt Egg Diaries has been inducted and beer, like Becca and I co-own our business together and co-create everything. There's always, you know, she and I always have back and forth about. We're what we're gonna do, we're, we're, we're almost like, we agree 95% of the time, like it's, it's not there.

But in terms of this, they actually like our, our staff. 'cause there's, you know, there's a team that makes the show. And so we definitely, like, we, we all sat down and it was a lot of fun for some of the people we went and talked to, some of, you know, 'cause we've had it for 18 years, so some people, you know, it's like, there, there were old team members from 10 years ago and we like would ring them up, what should we do?

You know, like we, like everyone who's worked on the show. We kind of talked it, talked it through a bit and you know, dk kind of like. Give us feedback. You know, when we did one round of, oh, you know, this looks good, this looks good. Could you do, is there one like this? Or, you know, so they were, they were good.

And it was just like, we just slowly got to that stage where we had the stories to do a book. And I think maybe the list even, I think maybe originally we were only gonna do 25, but it went up to 30 just based on the strength of the stories. Yeah. 

Have you, have you got anything held back for volume two? 

I need a few more years.

I, I would worry, I, that's, yeah. I need to like do this for another 10 years before we go into volume two. I gotta get, gotta get up there. But yeah, no, and I think that there was some story, you know, we also, because there is, it's such a, it's got such a strong visual component to it. We did, you know, find, we did select stories that had.

Really good images to go along with them. 'cause that was like, you know, that was D K's vision, which we appreciated. So we worked, that was one of the parameters. So I think that the fact that they had this vision of how to make rad books, which they've done for many years, you know, to your point of being like used to read them as kids, that was an awesome thing to work with as a parameter.

So that, that impacted what stories we picked as well. 

Just that complete side, side step. Do you ever get any sort of existential crisis that you're gonna run outta stories or, or creativity doing this or is that just me, you 

know? No, I have, sorry. Yes and no. Not, not really, not anymore. You know, my existential crisis tend to be different.

But there certainly, like earlier on, you're like, oh my God, where's the next story coming from? What do I find? How do I do this? We got to the stage where we were big enough that we had momentum. Based around that, like people would reach us, reach out to us with stories. You know, I was out in the community.

People would, you know, come up to me and talk, be like, oh yeah, I have this like friend who did this incredible thing, you know, this, this happened to him. And it was like this really deep experience. And so it, it's become that, that's not a worry for us quite as much anymore, but I remember that of being like, oh God, when, you know, where's this next story gonna come from?

Or, or will I be able to do this and string it together? And part of it was just this slow, steady growth of the whole thing. And, and, you know, the, the whole outdoor adventure world has grown a lot too. And so with that and, and the number of people, the different types of people participating, the, the different backgrounds of people participating, they every, you know, there's so many unique stories and interactions that come into that, that are happening out there right now, that it doesn't.

Uh, that's not my concern, you know, 

and I say that yes, to, to, to be honest, I did hit when I, 'cause I'm into season three, this will be back of season four, probably got a roster that's taking me up to season five and six at the minute. And I've got notes as long as my arm on my iPhone. For the amount of things that I keep, I want to circle back on, get three whiteboards sitting behind me here at the minute with ideas.

I plan to, it's, I think my crisis come from just not, you know, it's assimilating all that into an order and finding the time to get through all. And what would be the most impactful story to surface at the right time. And is the episodes, you know, do I need to be congruent or, yeah. So that, that's where all my existential dreads Yeah.

Not crisis. It's, it's how do we package all that and then, you know, should I released that episode at that time or done it, you know, two weeks later after the previous episode? Yeah. I tend to overthink a lot of things to. Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yep. And it's so funny because sometimes, you know, you do all this planning, you know, and, and it, this is where it lines up.

This is where creativity and like actual adventure really run in parallel is you do all this planning. You, you learn, you know, as much as you can about the thing you want to go and try and do, you know, whether that's a, a huge face or whether that's like a, a crazy alter race or whatever it is. You learn, you learn all, all, everything you can, and you make a plan.

You do this whole thing, you talk it through five times with your partner, and then it, you know, sometimes it, sometimes it goes like how you would expect it to or the same hurdles are there, but most of the time it ends up just being different. And you have to make choices out there and do it and, and you know, realize, oh, maybe I made the right choices today.

Maybe I read, made the not the best choices today. It's what you learn from doing it and that, and then who you do it with. And so I think. That is how, like through time, I think maybe that what you're going through, that's how I've, I've maybe adjusted. Yeah. And I still look back and be like, God, I wish I had that one back.

Or Yeah. You know, or, or I wish, you know, I wish I'd been able to do this then, and or I even, I wish my skills were as, as like strong as they are now, 15 years ago. And you know, there's always that side of it, but it's, you need need through, there's something confidence building when you realize we're all kind of making this up anyway.

You know, it's like you bring, you bring all your old experiences. You, you go, you do a thing and you're like making it up a little bit. 

If you knew it all at the time or even at the current moment, you know, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be as, it wouldn't probably wouldn't be as engaging or as compelling as it as it is because I think that is part of the process really, isn't it?

Because yeah, nobody knows anything and it's. We are all still learning as we go. And I think what kind of, what, what you made me think of there, I I, I sometimes get, you know, so pent up over this as well and then go on an adventure and that's the release and that's where more of my creativity and thought process comes from.

It's quite a, quite a weird, you know, full circle moment. A lot, a lot of the time. Yeah. So it's, it's almost like doing the adv because I've always said I, I do this as a degree of therapy, uh mm-hmm. And, and getting out into the, the hills or onto the water or something, it, it helps free my mind a little bit and make me a bit more, not just resilient, but it creative and it lets me gather my thoughts in terms of what, what I want to do next with the show and stuff.

So that is weird how they can compliment each other. 

Yeah, 

yeah, 

yeah. They do.

Rolling back a little bit in terms of the, the actual adventures I wanted to touch on. 'cause you've gotten some adventures in there about the work, about your own adventures, and particularly one with you and Becca and the Sierra. Was it 50 days or something like that you spent in the mountains and it sounded quite an undertaking.

Yeah. 

Nearly struck with lightning. Oh, I, I remember some, some, oh yeah. Mental challenge. That was, 

that trip was like, that trip was a, like, it's, that trip was awesome and it was also terrible. 

Like it, I mean it's like fully awesome, but it was also 

one of those trips, you're like, God, what keeps happening to us on this trip?

Yeah. We did a, we did an incredible, it was like we loved it. It, it's a very in, in beck and i's like long partnership of, of trying hard things together. That trip still stands out to us as this. Thing we did. And I think even sometimes we, you know, we will have a di difficult day, you know, just, just in life or you know, sometimes out in the mountains and, and we each kind of know, like it's a little thing that we can go back to.

And for us, like we had this vision and I remember really clearly being like, Becca, do you think this would work? Where we were like, could we take a, a climbing trip but ditch, just not have the car? You know, basically could we like go the whole length of a range trying to, you know, sometimes repeat a route that was classic but also put up new route.

Could we like, try to do this and, you know, not really come out of the mountains. And we had the, you know, basically a vision for kind of walking about three, 300 miles, you know, carrying all the stuff to, to do. You know, new route, you know, we, there's ways you can get resupplies or, you know, like there we had some friends that worked as rangers of the park so that they could be like, take it to a kind of remote cabin or something like that.

So we like figured all the logistics and the trip just, it turned out to be probably not the way to do that trip in all honesty. Like it was, it just, it was so much work, but it was incredible to, to, to take that kind of journey and go through it. And there were so many powerful experiences and, you know, just days where we would.

Run up a mountain. Like it just would be like, you know, we'd have, we had a, we didn't have a lot of gear 'cause we had to go really light. But, you know, we'd do a, a first ascent and just say, Hey, there's, that doesn't really seem like that's been climbed before. And we'd look at it and we'd go and do it. And then, you know, we'd get down and we'd pack up camp and we'd hike for three hours and, and go fi you know, walk to the next mountain and look at that mountain, say, well, does that look like that would have something on it?

And we did not end up doing as much I think in the, in the 50 days. Like I think we did 10 days of climbing. Like realistically it was so much harder than we thought it would be. We got shingles like, which was ter, I got shingles, which was terrible. Becca got Giardia, which is like basically a stomach, you know, the stomach bug that won't go away.

And you know, we had, we had to leave the mountain to like come out of the range twice to go deal with our health issues, but then we would just go back in and it was like so pigheaded. I don't, it was like so stubborn and, but we did it and it was, it was pretty awesome. And it, you know, of course like the end, it ended like in the completely fitting way.

Like the end was like basically we, you know, it was unforecasted. We, you know, left the sort of northern party Yosemite and it was like, oh, there's gonna be like a little, you know, like a little rainstorm one day, no big deal. And. It was kinda like, oh, this is a little more than a rainstorm. And then it like turned into a blizzard and we were not close to anywhere and the Sierra can get like 10 feet of snow in a storm.

It like, it can just go from being like a nice fall to being like, it's winter now. And we had just, just a, we had quite the experience like getting out of the Sierra 

with 

Yeah, definitely one of the most tired days I've ever had in my entire life of just, of just being like, there's not much left in me right now.

But yeah. 

You accounted, you know, hearing phantom cell phones ring ringing and stuff. Was your mind playing with you playing games on you due to fatigue or exhaustion? 

You know, I think that just in general, like that chapter of my life like was a really, you know, I think we did that trip at kind of a point where.

We were a few years into doing what we were doing like creatively at that stage. And I was working all the time 'cause I was so passionate about it. And at the same point, like I knew that there, there could be a version of this, of my life where it's just like, I just worked all the time. Like I became a, you know, which, which happens, like there, there are people that like edit, you know, some of the beautiful magazines that like barely get to go outside.

And I was like, I was fighting that, you know, of like, how do I do the, how do I like summon the energy and the willpower to do something novel creatively, but how do I also do the things I want to do outdoors? Right? And so that chapter in my life, there was a lot of noise in my head. I worked very, very hard.

Like it was a lot of, and it didn't, it didn't feel that way. It just felt like life. I was, you know, all over the place doing all sorts of different things, you know, back at a computer, putting together shows, figuring out the voice, figuring out how to like, grow the thing. And that was, that trip was this like big, like hard reset where we drew a boundary of what mattered to us in our life, where we were gonna have this be a part of it.

And that was like a really impactful thing for us to go do at that moment because it ended up coloring our experience as we had kids, you know, and as like the, the, the, the time constraints in our lives became tighter and tighter. It colored the way that we thought about what is it like to have a, have a team?

You know, do we just work all the time? Is this about like money? Is it about this, or is it about just raw ambition, or is it about having a life. You get to engage with something wonderful, you know, on your, your nine to five, and then also have the space to go do things out in the mountains that you're talking about, right.

Or that you're writing about. And so that trip for us, I think really became like this, this sort of, you know, like flag we put down where we're like, Hey, this is, this is what it's gonna be for us. This is what it's gonna mean, and this is what, what we're gonna do. And it's gonna look different. It's gonna look unique, and it may not be the most efficient way to do something, but it'll be proud.

And how is it now if that's how is your balance or work life balance, or whatever label we want to put on it, how much time do you get out in the mountains? 

Yeah. Quite a bit like it's, I, I think. At some point I kind of sat down and I like quickly mapped out all the things I wanted to do with my life, like kind of everything.

And I even think I like mapped out like all the things I wanted to do outdoors in the mountains. And I was like, dude, you need three lives to do this. This is, this is not a realistic thing. Well, there could just, I would, if, if we could create, like if anyone out there listening right now can, knows how to create like an eighth day in the week, I'm, sign me up.

I'm all for it. I'll take more of it. So I, I am like, I get excited about things and, and I love doing so, so on one hand I feels, oh, I, I could be doing more, but, and truth of it is like, you know, I, I, I usually am like, I usually have two days a week where I get to be out in the forest or I get to be out in the mountains during the win winter.

Sorry, excuse me.

Yeah, I just, I, I, I'm fortunate enough that we're able to kind of build that into our space and I, you know, obviously there's some times where you like have to compromise a little bit on, on one side or the other, but my boys, I have two, two sons and they're getting the stage where they're both quite competent at, you know, moving in the mountains.

They, you know, they still, they still need, need, Becca and I to kinda, well drive them there and get them point in the right direction. But, you know, they, they're, they're growing competent. So I think that side of it is like, they have this passion for it. And now I find myself as a, my role as a facilitator sometimes too, you know, and so that, that was, you know, we didn't necessarily like, like we would've if, if our boys.

You know, wanted to just join the chess club and spend the weekends joining, doing playing chess, that would've been fine too. But they've gravitated towards a lot of the same things that we like as well. And that's been really fortunate for us because I think that's just how, you know, we get to be as a family these days.

Fantastic. Do you do stuff as a family then? Like the four of you, or, oh yeah, totally. Yeah. 

Yeah, we do. Becca and I will go do our own things and you know, now the boys are starting to be able to like go with their friends, you know, they, they'd be able to kind of. Sort of ski on their own or, or you know, go, go for a, go for a bike ride, you know, with friends.

So they're getting to that stage. So we, we do our own things separately. Yeah. And then we oftentimes do stuff as a family. Like this week I think we we're gonna do, there's a running race. This is like really classic running race up, up here that happens in the spring. It's kinda like a celebration of spring it all these, all these, it happens right when all these wild flowers come out and it's like a marathon length, but you can do it as a relay.

So we're gonna do it as a family, but as a relay. So my 9-year-old has the first leg, which is easier, you know, my 13-year-old has like a harder leg. And then Becca and I each have our own leg. So this week we were, we were, we went and took a trail run out in the, you know, like a local park, but out in the woods, you know, all four of us together.

Yeah. And, you know, we'll, we'll be skiing together this weekend and, you know, maybe, maybe one of us, you know. Maybe someone goes off with their friends or does whatever, but it's like we, we come back to doing stuff together and it's this pretty special moment in our life, in all honesty. Sucks. 

Yeah. My, my little girl's, nine years old.

Mm-hmm. That's, it's the same age and she's getting into all the adventure stuff with me, and it's just a, it's just a wonderful thing. And I've booked for all of us to go, tomorrow morning, we're going for our first skiing lesson, so I've never skied, nobody's, nobody's skied. And so there's nine of us going tomorrow, so we're excited about that.

I think doing things, friends and family and, and in this world, it's, it's, it's, there's something really stressful about it. 

Yeah. 

That's wonderful. 

Yeah. It's, it's, it's magic, you know? It's not all, it takes effort, it takes, it doesn't do it itself. You know, you gotta, you gotta make it happen. But it is, that's, you know, we get one, we get one crack at this whole thing and, and to go and spend time in the natural world.

You know, moving these bodies that we're all lucky enough to have Yeah. And to get to do it with, with people you love. You're like, does it get better than that? Probably not. 

Yeah, exactly. And I like what you said earlier about kinda not chasing the money, like kinda mapping this out and, you know, can you chase the money at the expense of having time in the mountains and really living, you know, you know, a fulfilling life with adventure and exposure to the natural world and 'cause you can't, you can buy those experiences, but that Yeah, it's something that, that I am aspiring to in years I'd like to do this full time at some point, hopefully in years, so that I can carve my week up to spend more time out in the, out in the mountains.

So it's, it's lovely to hear that that's your take on that.

Switching lanes again, if it's future projects, you know, the book. Fantastic. You know, you've got some fantastic stuff going on with the, the creative agency and the podcast, but what about, you know, if, if you get any other future projects around? 'cause you mentioned like video and stuff as well, so anything in, in the visual side of things you, you know.

Yeah, no, no. Like right now, no. It's, it's been an interesting chapter, like for all of us, like it, we've put a lot of effort actually into the podcast. It's one of those things that, that, and part of writing a book kind of like clarified some of that for me. So we've still been putting a lot of energy in, into just, you know, even though it's been 18 year olds, you'd be like, oh, it's doing the same thing over and over again.

It doesn't feel that way. And so like a lot of our motivation right now is, is, you know, we have another podcast too that we do with Alex Honnold, the climber called Climbing Gold. And so. I, I think there's still, we'll see if, like, we get to make these, but there's still like projects that, especially like in the audio world, that I wanna tackle and do.

And so for me that's where it is. I, I'd never hurt for the ideas. It's mostly just, is it the right time for this idea? Can, can we find some money to make it work for this, this idea? Can we, you know, do we, have we saved enough money to make it ourselves and then see if we can turn it into something else.

So we go through that chapter. So it's, right now I am like, I, like there's no big thing that's about to happen three months from now, but that's like the best period in my life. I feel like a lot of times creatively is like where I get to take a step back and say, what am I doing? Yeah. What am I gonna make?

And I find that these moments are when I end up kind of making things that changed the course of, of my career trajectory. You know, the diaries came out of a similar moment. You know? Yeah. Yeah. 

Wonderful. Uh, out, out, out of interest, how did you and Alex come to strike up a friendship and then a podcast?

How did that come to be? Mm-hmm. 

You know, it's, it's so interesting 'cause I think we, you know, the world of climbing, someone was asking, someone was asking me about this the other day and I was like, walking my kid to school, and there was another dad who, who's a, who kind of like, is a climate. She's like, how, how do you even know this person?

I'm like, you just do. It's if you, the, the, the, the truth of it is like the number of people that are really committing their lives to doing something like. Climbing or lived outta the back of their car for it's not that big. And certainly like 10 years ago it wasn't that big. And then 20 years ago it wasn't that big.

So it, it still feels like very much of a small community. And for me, you know, Alex is, was just like in my peer group of how it is. Like, Alex and I weren't super, like we'd met a few times, but he was really good friends with people I'm really good friends with. And it just kind of like, I was working on this idea for a climbing podcast and then I was like, would Alex be interested?

And it was like, yes. And it was like, you know, 10, it was like almost, you know, within a day we were on the phone talking to each other about it and it went from there. Yeah. 

Yeah. How, how do you find it, because they're very different podcasts. Mm-hmm. How, how do you find it? Do you get equal amount of satisfaction from both of them?

Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I really like. We've done with both podcasts, we've been, been able to do some really cool things. And there's been a couple like, projects on climbing gold where we've been able to do these like multi-part series, which are just awesome. And I think the other thing that I've loved about climbing gold is that, you know, like when we started, I was like, I'm, I'm very, very, very involved in climbing gold, but you don't hear me as much on that podcast anymore.

Uh, if at all. And when we started, I was on that podcast like my, you'd hear my voice all the time, and Alex has just grown and gotten to be like really good at talking to people and getting them to like, share really perf, you know, kind of like, you know, great. Parts of their life and perspectives, and I love that.

It's like we sit down, you know, I'm, I'm on the interviews and I do it and I just watch and you know, I'm live there and I'm present and it's, so that side of it is, is I get a lot of joy over seeing somebody, like a collaborator be really good at their job. I feel like it's a little bit like, maybe like how, you know, playing on a sports team and you're kind of like, see somebody like really come into their own.

It feels like that across, 

it comes across very well on and it's a great podcast that it comes across very well compared to, you know, like when you think about his fame through free solo and all that kinda stuff in somebody like the, you know, Arctic and things like that. Sometimes you can, you know, they, that kinda angle can portray him as being a bit, you know, closed off.

But when you see him very engaging or hear him very engaging on that. Yeah. More so it's, uh, yeah, it is great. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah. He 

gets to be, he gets to be himself a little bit. Yeah. More. Like I, I think, you know, I shouldn't speak for him, but that was my, that was my hope for it is, you know, like I, I feel in a way, like it's been an awesome working relationship with him, but I feel like I've been like, oh, you know, we're gonna get to do this.

You're gonna get to figure out what you wanna say versus having somebody, you know, just edit you to be a certain way. And, and I, I hope we've been able to do that and I hope, I hope he gets out of it. 'cause he, he, he's really good and, and he's really thought, he's a very thoughtful person. Not that he doesn't come off thoughtful in other spaces, but he's a really smart, thoughtful, interesting person who's really curious about the world.

And I think it comes across. Yeah, 

absolutely. Yeah. I think you, he, you know, the way he expresses the himself is it can be very different and I suppose those are the documentaries. You, you're in a different frame of mind I suppose as well, because you've got different challenge or obstacle in front of you.

Interestingly. Do you like being the kinda creative director more so than being the interviewer or not? 

You know, I think that one of the things I learned really quickly outta this whole process was, 

and I don't mean to deduce that if you want, it's not a binary, it's not a binary thing. I was just thinking about 'cause, 'cause I think the way like, you know, your art for storytelling and the craft, you know, and directing and, and you know, having that vision for, you know, climbing gold versus, you know, maybe, you know, the interviews type style stuff and multi-part things in the dirt bag.

Just trying to understand Yeah. Your philosophy or your thoughts. 

Yeah. No, I think one of the things I, I learned, or like a really strong sense for pretty quickly is that when I started the diaries, like within the first year, I was like, this is gonna have to grow beyond me, is I'm gonna have to figure out ways to engage other people for this to work.

And part of that, you know, you, you asked like that sort of stress around finding stories and part of that was, was that, is that I, I needed, I needed to make sure that there were, that I was like tapping into to more ideas, more people. Oh.

Yes.

This has been 

wonderful so far fit, I've really en enjoy, I've really enjoyed kinda chatting to you and, and talking through the, the, the journey and, and the book, but maybe time to move into our closing tradition. So there are three in this season. So one being great forward suggestion, two being a called adventure, and then I've got a quick fire q and a thing to close out the mm-hmm.

The session just in a little bit of a. So starting with the pay it forward, your opportunity to raise awareness for a cause, a project, a charity, anything that, uh, that we can get the listeners and viewers involved in. So what would you recommend as a pay forward suggestion? 

Oh, wow. That's, that's a great question.

I think one thing, like, just on a global level, one of the things that we support and we joined quite early, is 1% for the planet. And that for us was like this awesome thing that we did, that Becca and I are one of the, the most proud of. Like really of any things we ever did was like, really early. We're like, we're gonna do this.

And it was a smaller organization and now it's grown into this global movement where businesses and, and now individuals can actually join in and figure out how to pledge 1% of their, you know, like earnings towards causes and. You know, like basically at the, at the, you know, a certain time of the end of the year, we have to go through and look at all, you know, all these different organizations and figure out how we want to make donations.

And that is like one of my favorite things because, you know, they're, they tend to be organizations that are driven, you know, in a conservation direction or in sort of a, a way that is helping support climate change initiatives and whatnot. And so for us, this is like our chance to give back and 1% for the planet has just been this awesome thing that we've been a part of.

And, you know, I think it's, it, like I said, it's a global at this stage. So that's something that people should take a look at. 

Excellent. Fantastic. 1% for the planet. So Nick, a call to adventure. So your opportunity to make a suggestion could be a place in activity, just anything to get people inspired.

Maybe this weekend to go and do something a little more adventurous. So what would your call to adventure be? 

Oh, I, I would just say to say to people is like, you know, sometimes we'll have thoughts, like, they'll be like, oh, like I have this idea. And, and then you're like, oh, like, that'd be awesome. And it fades and goes away.

And sometimes there's these ideas that kind of keep coming back, you know, that keep showing up almost like a squirrel that runs along defense line or whatnot. And I would say is like, when you find yourself with that kind of idea, take a moment and sit with it, because I think there's something to it.

And it's really easy to come up with a million reasons why you can't do something. But when an idea comes along and you find yourself ruminating on it over and over again, treat it seriously. You know, you wouldn't ignore if, if, if a person came to you like that and was like, Hey, like here's this thing, you wouldn't ignore them forever.

If you sit down and you'd give them a chance to listen and think it through. So if there's things that you're thinking about that you would like to do or try in the outdoor world, or an adventure you'd like to take, or a trip you'd like to have, or even just reconnecting with an old friend in a certain way, take a moment and figure out how to do it because you will not regret it.

You will not regret that. That is not something you will end up reaching the end of your days being like, I'm really bummed. I went and took that trip, or I spent time with that person, or I did this thing I was curious about. It's just not how the world works. 

Yeah. Follow your curiosity is very, very sound advice and I'm going to plug your book for you.

So pick up states of adventure and you'll get more than your, your fill of unique ideas and adventures. So thank you. And finally, to close out 10 quick fire questions. Okay. And you can answer just as it comes to your head, so just for a little bit. Al question one of 10, you can have a dinner party with two guests dead alive.

Who would they be? 

Hmm. 

Well, I said, I mentioned David Attenborough. I would have, I would have dinner with David Attenborough for sure. Yeah. And then who's fortunately still alive, but let me think. Oh God, that's such a, it's such a tough question. I, I knew you were gonna do this to me. The, I I do think that being able to go back and talk to some of the people that really pioneered the environmental movement, like, especially here and I'm sure the case in the uk, but there's like people like David Brower who was this sort of key founder in this sort of Sierra club here, and really was a big part of making changes to our country.

I think that would be, I would be pretty interested in that too. 

Excellent, excellent. Question two, what is the, the craziest experience or story you've ever heard on the road?

Oh God. How PG is this show? You're like, how, 

like how mature is your audience? I don't know. There, there, there's definitely, I've had some like really weird experiences where I've ended up in strange places and been like, I need to be excused because I'm being like 

propositioned into some weird, 

and I'm not in, I'm not like bizarre places, just like rest stops Iowa and campgrounds and things like that.

Not Iowa, Iowa. I always been good. I've been good there. But yeah, 

that always kind of like trips me out a little bit about sometimes how there are, yes. So those are, those are strange experiences that I've had where I'm like, why is this happening to me now? 

There 

no war. 

Excellent. Uh, question three. Do you have a hidden talent?

Oh, I think that it's not so hidden, but I think it's kind of like, there's just, like, my optimism gets, like my blessing and my curse is like, there, the, the optimism I have is this, I think it comes out, comes out. It's not so hidden, but I think some, like the people that know me best are just like, oh man, you are just insanely optimistic sometimes about stuff.

And that is, it's, it's a strength and a weakness. 

Yes. Situational bias as well. Mm-hmm. I've got a bit of that as well. I, I always want to see what I want to see. Uh, uh, number four, favorite movie. 

Mm. 

Diet is 

a trick.

I, so I grew up loving movies like I love, love, love movies. That was like a big thing my dad and I bonded over was like watching movies and it's really hard for me to pick a single favorite, but I think if I were to be like judging it based upon the number of times I've watched it, I would pick the Royal 10 and Bombs by Wes Anderson.

Like that. I've seen that for years. Favorite book number five? 

Oh, that's like, this is, this is tough. You're cutting like right to the heart of it all. You're like, what do I do with that? I love books like that. You get to the end of it and you're like, I wanna go back to the beacon and it, that does not happen all the time for me.

But one book that I remember that happening to is Murakami, the Windup Bird Chronicles. Which is just this crazy, surreal kind of detective. 

Yeah. 

Fantasy mystery that mashes up culture in all sorts of really profound ways. 

I've got a long flight next week that I might actually pick that up, so thank you.

Number six, what was the last music gig gig that you went to? 

I saw Jamie xx with my kids and it was fricking awesome. So good. We were just like, yeah, Jamie xx has a new album out, and we went to see this venue and it was an incredible show, like truly awesome. 

It was funny, we saw two British like electronic producers, like in the course of two months we saw Fred again, which was also insane.

But Jamie xx was technically the last one I saw. 

Yeah. Excellent. Number seven, if you could snap your fingers and be anywhere doing anything, what would it.

I had, if I could do, if I could create or some sort of weird channel, like I would be transported to the desert. If I could like ping pong between where I live and this desert southwest, that would be like, that would be amazing. Yeah. And, and, and what I'd be doing there. Wouldn't it mean mostly enjoying sunshine and not being running in the rain, but Yeah.

Yeah. From Seattle, number eight, what scares you?

Oh, I think running outta time, you know, I mean, like, that's not something I can do 'cause it's like, I don't necessarily have control over it, but I do find myself, that's something I feel and, and will catch myself worrying about. It's just running out of time because there's so many things I want to do with my life.

And I've had to be honest about that reality. Right? And it is in all sorts of walks of life, whether it's my creativity, whether it's like my time with my boys when they're this age, whether it's my time with Becca, whether it's my time outdoors, whether it's the, my like time with the, the body I currently have, you know, of being able to like, use it in awesome ways.

I think that's, maybe scare is like a strong word for it, but I sometimes worry about that. Just like running outta time. 

Yeah. You number nine. If you could relive any moment in your life, what would it be?

You know, it's funny, I thi I think about this question and I'm gonna, I would, I'm gonna, I'm gonna share 'cause like I would relive most of my life, like over again in a heartbeat. I think about it, and there's been a few years where I'm like, would I relive that one? And I think I could maybe punt on some awkward teenage years where I would be like, I don't necessarily need to relive that one.

But beyond that, like so many moments, I would, I would replay this back in a heartbeat. Even the bad parts, even the hard parts, a hundred percent. Wow. It's, it's been awesome. 

Wow. Wow. That's the, that's the warmest response I think I've had to that yet. Thank you. And sincerest as well. And 10, and finally the best, what is the best advice you have ever received?

Yeah. One of the best bits of advice that I received was, you know, it was really, it was oriented towards my career, but I, I often think about it is there's this, a great adventure photographer, Corey Rich, he. Is a few years older than me and, and helped and mentored me and gave me advice in my early in my career.

And Corey said is that in order to make it in any creative field, you need to have some level of talent. You need to work very hard and you need to have some level of kind of like serendipity or luck. And, and, and that was like, he also really coupled it too of being like, none of it's gonna matter if no one likes you too.

Like you have to be a good person on top of it. So it was really like four things. I feel that that was the reality is like you need some talent, you need a work ethic. You you're gonna need a little bit of luck and, and you can't be a dick. You gotta be a nice person. You need to be personable. Yeah.

You've got to be personable because it'll catch up. And, and that's true. I've seen that and a lot of people, I've seen people that are like really talented, that do get lucky, that have a strong work ethic, but then. They'll, they'll make a few things, but then people are like, I can't actually work with that person.

So I think that that sort of, those four things that he threw out there, I think were, you know, resonate with me and I still share with other people. 

Excellent. Thank you. And that's, that's at the end, which I'm a little bit sad about. I've thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed this. I think I can, yeah. I've enjoyed it too.

Talk to you for, thank you fit. This has been wonderful. And I hit up as crass as this sounds, because this is how I use usually close the show out. Where can people find out more about Fitz Capital? 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, obviously 

the most people will know who Fitz Kaha is, but for the small part of my audience in the UK Yeah.

With the people. 

Well come, come listen, come listen to the, the Dirt Bag diaries. You know, it's, it's, if, if, if you're not filled up with what Chris is doing, you should come check, check this out too. Yeah. You know, and, and it, 'cause it is, it's been like, you know, for me it's almost like another child. It's different, but there's been a lot, it's 18 years, you know, today.

Yeah. And there's been a lot of love put into it and, and I've shared a lot of my experiences, not all the time 'cause I, I get tired of listening to myself, but you know, through, through, through the time I've been able to share experiences. 

Yeah. Amazing. And yeah, we'll, we'll link it to that and, and tag. So yeah, we'd recommend pick up the book as well.

States of adventure, give fit and the duck bag diaries a follow a climbing gold as well. Give that a lesson and a follow as well with, with Alex Ronalds. This has been wonderful fits and I think I'll bring it to our close. 

Well, thanks for having me, Chris. I appreciate it. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode.

For the show notes and further information, please visit adventure diaries.com/podcast. And finally. We hope to have inspired you to take action and plan your next adventure, big or small, because sometimes we all need a little adventure to cleanse that bitter taste of life from the soul. Until next time, have fun and keep paying it forward.