Interview with Krista Daniels, Horse Trainer

 How do we continue to train and honor horses with our training techniques.   This convesrsation includes  tips on body language, developing your own voice with your horse/s and how to listen and prepare yourself for entering training sessions.  Dont miss Krista's perspectives and philosophy for developing the best  authentic relationships with your horse/s.  We talk about things many people miss when training.

Krista Daniels can be reached for advice ( which is free) and training info at Kristalshine05@gmail.com

Transcript

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This is the Horse Human Connection. A captivating podcast where we extend into the world of equine assisted learning. Horse Training. and gentleness in working with these magnificent creatures. Captivating stories from the leading professionals and ordinary people alike unravel novel ideas in being with horses. The horse human connection is an idea, a place, and a voice. The idea is to support the quiet revolution and recognize the intelligence and true nature of the horse. The place is a destination farm near the Umpqua Forest and River that slows down visitors and patrons enough to experience the shift. The Voice is this podcast. Welcome to today's episode. Hi, this is Ishi Abel. Welcome to the Horse Human Connection Matrix podcast. I have with me today, Krista Daniels, who is a horse trainer, and she's been good enough to join me today. She's been out a couple of times and. And and met my horses and we've hung out a little bit and I'm really excited to interview her because she's young and upcoming and has a really fresh perspective on horse training. Welcome Krista. Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. Yeah. So, tell me a little bit about, your background with horses. When did you get your first horse? When did you train your first horse? That kind of thing. So, I started out in horses when I was three years old. I got my first horse when I was five from a family friend. She was given to us. I wrote her and everything fast forward. I moved to Oregon from California and we bought a perch on draft for 400 from our neighbor. And that was the first force that I actually trained with help from another more cowboy outlook horse trainer, who also influenced a lot of my ideas and or deals. Dealing with a very big animal. My draft was 17, two hands high. Oh my goodness. And he knew his size. He was 2000 pounds. He knew his size and he, there's been a few times where he took me skiing and I could not, I didn't know what I was doing. That happened when I was 11 years old to 13 years old. I sold him. I got my Yakima Reservation Mustang, Divine's Halo. And she was the first horse that I finished under saddle. And when I got her, what a year and a half after I had her, I apprenticed with David D Rogers and shady Cove Eagle point in white city area for two and a half years. I've been training horses for five years now, if I include the apprenticeship and everything that I've done. I've done quite a lot of breeds, all the in betweens. I've done a lot of full work. I've done a lot of, you know, problem horses, and I'm into problem horses now. And I lean more into Mustangs. I just got a Mustang three months back as a stud. And he's doing great. He's ready to be saddle broke now. When you apprenticed with the horse trainer were there a lot of great things you learned and then were there moments that maybe your intuition told you to do something a little differently or that you have evolved your own style? Can you, can you speak to that a little bit? Like, what are some of your beliefs about horse training? Well, absolutely. With anything, you know, you always find how you can do it the best yourself and the way that you know how. Practicing with David was amazing. He taught me a lot. He taught me a lot about myself. More so than horse training because I already knew a lot about horses. I just needed to understand my energy, how to listen correctly, how to tell signs, and how to read them better to listen to them better. There have been a few times where he would explain to me or he would want to do something and I'm like, I don't, I don't know, I don't think that's the right idea. And there's been a few times when I got. Very like experienced with horse training and I started branching off and we're about to have a partnership. And I had my own group of horses and he had his, that's when I was really able to like try my own type of training without someone over my shoulder telling me exactly what to do. And that's where I learned a lot of my style. Now body language and Liberty work is what works the best for me. Now that I know how to control my energy, I think that's what David really taught me the most about is how to control myself and control my movements in a way that I can express my body language better. Can you speak a little bit about what your body language and your energy were like before he taught you and what, what that's like now? So my energy was very. sporadic. It was everywhere. I had no grounding at all. I would ride horses that were dead beat tired and they would act like they're fresh three year olds. It was pretty hard to, you know, think that it was me, not the horse, so when he taught me a lot about, you know, he saw me work with a horse and he had to pull me aside. He goes, Krista, What are you doing? I don't know. I'm just being me. This is how I am. He goes, no, no. And he taught me a lot about how to soften my body language and how to breathe. I feel like a lot of the times when we work with horses or other animals, even other humans, we forget to breathe. We get really elevated really quickly. And we just forget to just ground ourselves for a second and just go everything's okay. I'm so glad you mentioned that you know a couple of the other horse people that I have interviewed have talked about breath work and its importance, and I think that that's pretty universal and one of the things that can make a really big difference. No, I completely agree. Horses do the same thing with their breath work. They'll tell you when they're scared of something with their breath. They'll tell you when they're calm with their breath. They'll tell you if they're in pain with their breath. Like you can tell a lot from just someone's breathing, a horse's breathing, and just the way that they hold themselves and the energy level you feel from them. What are some of the other really profound things that you learned from David? And what are other techniques that you use to get yourself grounded? Like, how do you get there? And those are two how I had to learn to ground myself and bring my energy in was I had a picture all my energy going out through my feet into the earth. That was the only thing that worked for me that would fully bring me down and where I can control my energy better. And then with that, I can raise it and do whatever I need because it can always be released back. So that taught me a lot of give and take and how to associate that with horses and with myself. And it's helped me a lot in every situation that I've ever been in, honestly. I'm really glad that I have that universal skill now. As for the other profound things that I learned or that David taught me was how to watch and be on alert around your horse and how to really be part of a herd environment. Tell me more about that. How did you learn about the herd environment? And what exactly do you mean by that? So In a herd environment, horses rely a lot on other horses body language, and their attention, and their energy, and what they're feeling, along with smells and sounds, of course, but David taught me in a way where, when I first started with him, I had to sit in a pasture, With a bunch of horses and just watch and then I had to report to him about everything that I saw and how How long did you do that for I did that for about three hours my homework, excuse me Excuse me. I Had to start with my own horses Report back to him about what I learned about my own horses and about what I was feeling from them, what I saw from them. And then I did it with his horses and when we introduced new horses, that's when I really saw how a herd interacts and how they work. And it was really special because I was able to see just how much body language plays, like you could openly see what the horses were telling the other horses. Openly, I mean like they were having a full conversation in front of you. Like it was plain as English. If you watch, it's there. Exactly. If you watch, you know, your horse is going to tell you. And all the horses around you will tell you. Horses are not shy. They definitely tell you everything that they're thinking and they're feeling. And I think that's the beauty of it, too, is that if you watch, That means you're listening and horses do a lot when the person that they're trying to rely on watches them because they're watching you all the time. They know everything about you before you even know stuff about yourself. And tell me more about that. What do they know? How do they know? So, horses can smell up to a mile or two away. They can hear two miles away. They have such keen senses. They have so many nerve endings in their skin that they can feel fly land on them, you know, and they're so used to going in between sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. We do that, but not to the extent they do at all. They're able to constantly go up and down, up and down from it. So horses. They see a lot, they see in a yellow green vision, and when they watch you, they can see everything about you. They see every subtle movement, especially since they're creatures of habit and of pattern. They'll make patterns with what to associate you with. So they, each horse, there's general body language, and then every person has their own body language, and what they mean by that. And when you watch your horse, and, you know, you watch yourself and how you express yourself with your horse, you get different answers. It's the same as how you relax, you know, when you want them to ho or come into you, versus I want you to go out. Leave me alone. Yeah. I'm, I'm picturing some of my interactions with my horses as you're talking about that and, and also thinking about how they each have such an individual voice and how they'll do these different things that are communicating different things to me to get my attention, like stand exactly in a place and whatnot. Yeah. And they can communicate differently just as we do, but. Their main thing is body language, patterns, and once they're used to you, and they know that you can hear their conversations with you, just based off of seeing their body language and how you watch them, that's when the real magic happens. Because you can really read your horse and understand everything about your horse and really have that connection of, a nurture nature environment. So we're talking about talking to your horse right here. That's really what we're saying. I mean, we're not, we're not talking about it in the form of like animal, an animal communicator would maybe get words and pictures and things in their mind, through ESP. But we're talking about very real time available to everybody ways to connect with your horse. Okay. And have the horse know that they're being listened to and show the horse that by your body language because they talk in body language. Is that right? that's exactly right. And it's not just talking to your horse, it's listening. Most of the time, you know, you're talking to your horse, but you have to listen to your horse if you want them to listen to you. Right. It's basic and I think that's where a lot of exactly, but I think that's where a lot of horse trainers or people with horses kind of fumble because they don't understand how to properly assess listening to their horse. I know I didn't when I started out horses. You know, it's not something that just you know how to do it's something that you have to build up keep doing over time to understand your horse and understand yourself to the extent you know how to talk to your horse and then listen and return. Okay, so when you're training your horse, and you're listening to your horse. How, how does. Like it's important in horse training for them to listen to you, but if you're busy listening to them like how does all that work? Like, like you want to be the one listening, but you're training and you're expecting a certain outcome. So are there choices always or how does that work? So anything with horse training is a choice. You know, you can't make a conscious being do your every will and whim. Yeah. Just because, you know, I mean, in my mind, I can picture it like how you would a little kid. You show respect, you get respect, and with horses, of course, there's never respect or disrespect necessarily in that sense, but it's a really basic thing that a lot of people will understand you're saying that it's not like it is with people. So, the word respect is You can use it, but it's not exactly what you would mean in respect with people because horses don't think the way people do. Is that, is that what you're saying? That's exactly it. So when I say a horse disrespects or respects me, I mean, a horse is not tuned in with me or they're not, listening to me at all, which means that then I'm not listening to them because. All horses ask her yes or no questions. A lot of the time. I mean, they'll tell you a lot, but when you're training them, that's all you're doing is saying yes or no. Can I do this? Can I leave the round pen? Is this, is this what you wanted? Am I supposed to try? Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of the listening and, you know, Not listening comes in because a horse that does not feel that you're listening to them will not listen to you. If a horse does not feel comfortable enough to listen to you, how do you know when you're with a horse? You talked about about the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system. And what my mind does when you talk about that is I equate that with self regulation and people like when people get emotional or they have some trauma or some PTSD or they're just even like scared of a big animal like a horse that learning to self regulate like our breath calms down our our blood pressure is probably affected. We feel more grounded the up and down thing is partially emotional, but it's also partially physiological. And so that's part of what you're talking about with that, right? To an extent, yes, but not fully because of horses, they do not, they do not think in that way. Right. Right. Right. So, a horse that has trauma isn't going to get rid of that trauma or try and self regulate after that. I'm thinking about a horse that comes down, like when you stop asking something of them and you're grounded and you're just spending time with them, then they're not up in their, in their parasympathetic nervous system anymore. Is that like part of the training that you Yes. Yes. So, any training base is off of sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. So, us, like, humans, we have six nervous systems. Okay. But when you're talking psychological, the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system, they come in and out of it so quickly and all the time because they're prey animals. Right. that we don't do that. When we get into parasympathetic nervous system, we're grounded and everything's okay. But when we go into sympathetic, we stay there for a long time, a very long time. Even if you think you're grounded later, you're still in fight mode, fight or flight. So horses have a totally different understanding of parasympathetic and sympathetic. I see what you're saying. They, they can cycle much, much, it. more quickly than humans. Exactly. Because it is such a second nature to them to be able to have a fight or flight and to come out of it so quickly. So that's what horse training is about. Right. Okay. That was my next question. Like how can you give some examples of like how to recognize that and how to use it when you're training a horse? Yeah. So when you see a horse and sympathetic nervous system, you're going to notice that they're going to pin their jaw shut. I mean, that's just going to be. Lock jaw shut. You're gonna see twitching. You're gonna see their nerves start to come out on their nose. You can see, you can physically feel from them their tension. You can see their body movements be more rigid and that you can tell when they stop looking for you, but they start looking for a threat how do you use that? What actions does the trainer take to be effective when you start to notice these things? So when you start to notice them and you want your horse to come down into parasympathetic nervous system, that's where listening to your horse comes into play. So if you are doing your job and you're listening to your horse and you realize, okay, this horse is in sympathetic nervous system, they're freaking out about something, you have to take steps back to figure out what got them there in the first place. Was it something you did? Was it something that an outside environment did? Is it something that they might have trauma from? Is it something that you did not deal with accordingly? I mean, as humans, we always mess up, you know, and it's another animal that you're trying to teach. You know, it's hard. You can't always know what's going on all the time, and you can't think of every possibility, because you just can't. There's no way for you to know 100%, but you can deal with the knowledge that the horse gives you at the time. What do you do at that point though to like with your body or with your switching what you're doing? Or like, do you make a change that then helps them along? You make a change in your body language. You tell that horse, listen. I'm relaxed. Why aren't you relaxed? What's going on? You have to be another horse that your horse can depend on. Okay. If that makes sense. So, when I train horses, I use body language very clearly. How I know another horse would use it, or I would know someone else would use it. And I am very clear about it. That's what liberty work is. You have to be so clear about it that sometimes you have to use tools. Thanks. When I know if it's a horse I'm working with that I see that they're in sympathetic nervous system and they're Freaking out about something that I did. I take two steps back. I take them. I stop everything that I'm doing I take two steps back because I would rather them come to me at the end Than I would whatever we're working on If you take two steps now, two steps back now, that's two steps further in the future with something else that you work on you definitely don't wanna push when they're in that, kind of a mode? No, because what you mean by two steps back, I mean, do you mean literally you're taking two steps away from the horse, steps in the training. Yeah, in the training. You go back to where the horse was comfortable in whatever you were doing. And you work back up and you try again. It's like climbing stairs. Got it. Okay. And you have to take a rest. You know, every now and then, you know, you're climbing a big flight of stairs, and you're climbing them, and then your thighs start burning, and you gotta sit on the step that you're at, and just, okay. And kind of sit there for a second. You know, it's the same with horses. They're such intelligent, such interconnected creatures. Mm hmm. That if you prove to them that you can listen, and that you don't have a goal or intention with them, then you're open with them, and you're not a predator to them. Do you ever do that when you're on their backs? Like, I mean, for me, that's like a co created ride. Do you ever have, like, the, like, not have the intention, and, not really be asking much except for, you know, carry me on a ride. Is that something that you ever do? Or when you're riding, is there always intention and leadership or dominance or something? I do not align myself with leadership or dominance. I believe the rider can have leadership and the horse can have leadership in both instances. Whenever you work with a horse, you never go in with intention or goal in mind. I'm going to get this like halter on this Mustang today. Well, like you can say that, but you can't go in with that intention because that is. Already setting your horse up for failure. You can't go in expecting everything. You have to go in with an open mind, you have to work with the horse that you have today and that's all you can do, you know, you can have goals set in mind of where you would like to be, you mean the expectation of what you'll accomplish? The expectation of what you want, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of instances where sometimes I need to take the leadership role because my horse is not listening or it's not understanding what I want. So then I have to help them through that you depend on me. I depend on you. I trust every horse that I've ever rode or ever trained. I would trust them to make decisions for me on a ride. And I think that's how it should always be. Well, they definitely can hear and sense and, and smell way better than we can. So it must be frustrating for a horse to have to listen to a human who is at a deficit in those areas. I went and worked with You this Mustang out in Canyonville, her name was Dallas. And she built the patterns on how I was feeling, well one day, I was going through a lot. I mean, I was just stressed out, you know, I have no money in my pockets, and I had to come out, and I mean, I didn't get home that day until 10pm. It was just a really long day for me. And when I got up there at 7 PM, I already had the idea of what was going to happen that day. And I went in with expectations and because my expectations weren't met, that just stressed me out even more and brought me further back into, this is a horrible day. And that just set everything for disaster. But what is so good about when you still go out and do it is that you still teach yourself. You're still doing it. And it teaches you how to take two steps back with yourself. It sounds like your conscious awareness as you come into contact with the animals, you're consciously aware of yourself and you're always learning. Always. I mean, you can never know it all. Ever. There's always new things for everything. And I think the one skill that I learned on my own Was I need to picture all the baggage I'm carrying from the day and all the weight that I have strapped my shoulders I hang them up outside the round pen outside the arena, you know And I just hang them up and I'll pick them up when I get done. Or not. Leave them out in the rain and let them get washed into the earth. Well, what did we all like to do that? I know what you're saying that you're conscious about what you have and what you're thinking about, and you know, that you can't bring that with you to work. Exactly with any animal at that. And even with humans, when you interact with. Other people, you would just have to put it aside for a second, go, this cannot overshadow everything that I'm doing today. Right. Tell me about your most memorable ride. Do you have like some rides that really stick out in your memory and who are you riding and where are you and who are you with? So, I have quite a few. I have one of the Mustang that I trained that another trainer said would not amount to anything. And that it would take like two years to train this horse to get her ready for trail rides. All that stuff took me six months and on her seventh ride, I went, you know what? Let's just take her out and see what she does. And that was the most memorable for me because a horse's seventh ride ever under saddle. And I took her out on the trail next to the road on this trail that got windy and goes up and down. And she did great. I mean, she acted like she's been doing it her whole life. And that really stood out to me because that was just, you know, that's what we did this together. You know, we were so clear with each other that we could do that. Another one that sticks out really big for me. Is my buckskin Appaloosa thunderstorm. When I started training him, I knew that he didn't like the halter and I was trying to saddle break them and train him. Well, when a horse builds a bad association, you know, you don't want to use that with everything. You know, you don't want to constantly put it on them and constantly just like just because it's bad doesn't mean that it's not because I'm with you, you know, you have to, you have to prove that to them, you know, you have to earn their trust and earn their body language to clearly tell you. And so, one day I went, you know what? He knows my body language. I was lunging over my round pen. He knows my body language. He was stopping on a dime, did everything. That I was asking him to do. And just, we felt so in tune that I went, you know what, we'll do your first ride without a halter and without a saddle. And that's when I asked him, you know, are you ready for it? And he looked at me and he walked up to me and he lined up to the mounting block. I mean, I can't, it sounds like I'm making it up, but he did. He walked over to the mountain block. I had to move it a little bit, of course, you know, to get actually get on him. But he walked over there and looked at me like, yeah, that's You know, let's do it. I did his first ride without a halter. I asked him to go forward based off of body language and I've never been so nervous and so anxious. I mean, I had to tell him just how nervous I was. And I think that's what a lot of people also don't fully comprehend is that if you tell your horse what you're feeling, instead of them just feeling it from you, they understand better because you're being open with how you're feeling. And your horse can then help you through it. They don't want anything to do with incongruence. I mean, optimally it seems like, like, having a calm rider is the best thing, but the next best thing would be having a congruent rider, which means you're not lying about how you feel. Exactly. And if you're clear with that, then your body language adds up to that. I know there's a lot of times where it's like, fake it till you make it, which works for a few things. But with horses, if you're true with how you're feeling, your horse is going to be true with how they're feeling. There's not going to be any doubts there. And that was one of the times that I had to depend on my horse more than I depended on myself. So that's, it sounds like, of course, I wasn't there. But in theory, that sounds like what I'm talking about, about the regulation, like horses can help us learn to self regulate. Absolutely, they can. And I think that's what a lot of people or a lot of horse trainers kind of get stuck at, that I've seen, is where When the horse is open, and you're not open, it doesn't meet into good terms, at all. Right. And, what I learned from my experiences, is every horse that I've used body language with, more so than I have, basic, like, natural horsemanship cues of just watching them till they calm down. Those horses, I'm able to depend on them just as much as they depend on me. Okay, so let me, let me bring a little bit of clarity here because Some people may, may have different definitions of things. So in that, in like traditional evolving, because it's not that traditional natural horsemanship, there are often things that people do, you round pen, like dropping your shoulder and turning away from the horse or stepping in to have their shoulder or their rear end move out. So there are like. dedicated moves that you see on videos on YouTube all the time. That's not what you're talking about. You're talking about your own communication singularly with your body language, just like the way you speak, not like, not like an aid or, or something you learned from watching some other horse trainer. Exactly. And you can generalize body language. But you're going to have your own regardless of how you do it. You know, it's just going to be different because you have a different voice with everything that you do. And, you know, you can use as starting out or with the horse that you don't fully know, you can use those generalized techniques of dropping your shoulder, you know, softening in your hips and breathing in and out, understanding how to be clear, but at the end of the day. Your horse is listening to you and you're listening to your horse. That is, I really liked the way you've encapsulated that. And it's really important because so many people will watch like a famous trainer on a YouTube video and come home and try to do exactly the same thing. And a lot of times it fails. And I think a lot of times the people in the videos don't even understand exactly what they're doing, that they're trying to tell people to do. And you've hit on something that, you know, It's a conversation. There are two people, every, you know, a mother who has several children, your relationship with each child is different. Your relationship with each horse is different. Your relationship with each of your friends is different and everybody has their own voice and their own style. And so looking at it through that lens. It empowers people with their horses so much more. Exactly, and it, honestly, it empowers you for everyday life, too, not just with your horses. Right. Because you can generalize things all the time. Like, I tell everyone, you know, just because, You know, I'm able to do a lot of silent things because I use body language. Doesn't mean that I'm still not using generalized, you know, techniques. I mean, how you go about them and how you figure out is best for yourself is what's most important. And, and the horse, if, if you listen to the horse, the horse will listen to you. And that gives you a wider, a wider range of like, you don't have to be perfect. You just have to listen and show up. Exactly. And you just need to be there. And you know, it's one of those things where, how would you want to be listened to? I think it's more commonplace that people need to work with a trainer and learn what the trainer's doing. But it's not even specifically what the trainer does as far as being able to follow them. It's what they do in theory and in concept and in how they build the relationship. And that's why relationship training is so universal and Something that is, is worth everybody exploring because it's not, it's not this outdated thing of somebody else puts 30 days on my horse and then I get my horse back and he doesn't do it for me, but he did it for the other guy. You know, like there's a huge disconnect there and you have a way, the, the tools that you use, you're able to show people how to have that relationship with their horse. That's how a lot of people think about when they send their horses to trading, but that goes back to learning your horse. You know, you have to be able to learn your horse and know the horse that you have, that when you receive them, you receive the horse that you already had. You can't expect to have something different and only accept what was different. Does that make sense? It sounds like you're saying if you didn't know and listen to your horse in the beginning, the 30 days training that somebody else put on it isn't going to really help you very much, because you have a different, you have an unrealistic expectation. Exactly. And that's exactly what I was trying to say. When someone sends their horse to 30 days training, that trainer learns the horse. They learn each other and what a lot of people don't understand is that when they just send their horse to a trainer, they're not accepting the horse they already had. They're trying to get rid of the horse they had and come back with a new horse. Right. And you can't have that mentality. No. So tell me a little bit in the beginning, you mentioned that, you know, quote unquote, problem horses, which we all know is like a relationship issue. Not like the horse's fault alone is something that you're quite interested in working with. What does that look like? How can you help? So whenever I get called out and go, Hey, I'm having problems with my horses, usually in the sense of riding them. It's been very rare that I have problems with groundwork because a lot of people understand groundwork pretty basic. Right. But when it comes to riding, a lot of the times that I have to do is I have to go back through the steps. And when I go back through the steps. And I reassess the horse and I can feel how they're feeling with certain things. That allows me to determine, oh, this horse was just probably not being listened to. Like, a good example is, I'm riding this horse that has had tons of desensitization. She's a great horse in every way, but once you ask her to go into a canner or go faster, she bucks. I went in knowing that she bucked, but I did not hold that against her and she still hasn't done it to me. And what I've noticed is the other person I'm working with that's paying me to ride this horse rides her and won't get her into a canner because they're still holding against her of how she was. It's the body language that you show you're thinking about it. You know, we have subtle hints and the horse can notice when we're uncomfortable and what we're expecting. Because in every day when you ride them or you're around them, your body language bounces off one another is the same as in the saddle. And if you hold something against your horse every day, irregardless, if they've done it every day, the 10 days, then all of a sudden they don't do it and you still hold it against them. They're going to keep doing the same thing because you're still showing them the same body language and the same. They're responding to the pattern. Yeah, exactly. And that was something that was really strong for me to understand when I started writing this mare and I started telling. The person writing her without me there, I'm like, you have to not hold it against her. You know, I mean, I go in not holding anything against any horse that I'm working with, regardless of what I've heard about, you know, it gives me an idea, but that's it. That does not mean that that's the horse that they are today, just like we're not the humans that we were yesterday. You know, you grow every day and you understand things every day and you learn things every day. So true. And I wouldn't like someone to hold something against me that I did yesterday. You know, that's kind of like an eye for an eye. Vengeance, and that's vindictive. Yeah. Horses aren't vindictive. They don't care if a horse kicks them the day before. They're not going to hold that against them the next day. No, that's a very human concept. Exactly. And so I feel like that's what a lot of people do too. And a lot of horse trainers is that they hold things against their horse, but they don't need to be carrying with them I've had horses buck me off. I can't hold it against them. It's not the horse's fault, right? You know, it's never the horse's fault. It's never any animal's fault. Whatever they do, you know, they're just, they're trying, they're asking questions. They're asking questions and they're telling you something and most of the time. You just don't listen the first time they tell you, and they have to build up on how they're telling you. Yep, that's where the micro movements come in. Well, this has been fascinating, Krista. I'm so glad that you could join me today. If people want to reach you for horse training, Can I put your email in the show notes and is that the best way to reach you that is the best way to reach me as my email. Okay. If you have, you want to schedule mobile horse training. I come to you. I work with you and your horse. If you want me to just solely work with your horse, that's different. We can talk about that more, but absolutely anyone that's interested is welcome to reach out to me through my email with questions or concerns. I also give advice the best that I can. And that's free of charge. We broke down some stuff a while back, you and a couple of other trainers that I know. And there was a particular video that we all kind of had commentary on, and I really appreciated your insights on that. So, and that is such a useful thing for people to be able to say, Hey, I'm having this issue, let me run it by somebody that trains horses, I just so appreciate your time today. Thank you. Absolutely. No, thank you for inviting me. It was a pleasure.