The Autisic Woman: From " MEET MY AUSTIC BRAIN" podcast

I was so honored  to interview, The Austic Woman.  If you havent heard of her, she is a very popular (top 0.5%) podcaster with an educational serries on autism.  She is also an attorney and a part time judge.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/meet-my-autistic-brain/id1548001224

info@theautisticwoman.com

What are the legal protections for ableism and autism? How do high functioning autisic people face their challenges ? And who do you know that is hiding in plain site under the lable, striving harder than you know?

Transcript

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This is the Horse Human Connection. A captivating podcast where we extend into the world of equine assisted learning. Horse Training. and gentleness in working with these magnificent creatures. Captivating stories from the leading professionals and ordinary people alike unravel novel ideas in being with horses. The horse human connection is an idea, a place, and a voice. The idea is to support the quiet revolution and recognize the intelligence and true nature of the horse. The place is a destination farm near the Umpqua Forest and River that slows down visitors and patrons enough to experience the shift. The Voice is this podcast. Welcome to today's episode. Hi, I'm Ishi Abel, and today I have a very special guest with me. I have Susan, the autistic woman from the podcast, My Autistic Brain. And I'm just so excited to have you here and get to chat. Susan, thank you for joining me. Well, thank you for the invitation. It's great to be here. Yeah, so I have gained so much from your podcast. It has helped put so many things in perspective for me. You know, being diagnosed with autism at age 60, it's been an opportunity to go back and look at so many different things with a different lens and understand things differently. And I think a lot of people have that experience when they get diagnosed as an adult. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I was diagnosed at age 64. So I totally relate to that. Okay. Yeah, it's yeah, it's really something. Looking back on some things you know, there's, there's things that have been helpful and advantageous about some of the traits of autism and things that are not so much. And I'm curious with your with your line of work, and you said that you are an attorney. Yes, and a part time judge. And a part time judge. Right. So, you know, one of the, from what I'm understanding and, and experience sometimes is this black and white thinking that happens with people on the spectrum and autism. I can see where that would actually be advantageous. When you're sitting as a judge is that is that so do you find that it is advantageous. It also can have its downside because I tend to try to hold people to the letter of the law, to the point where you know even exactly word for word, but over the years I've learned how to ease up on that a bit. And not, you know, be quite that strict. I don't have to interpret everything in black and white. Mm hmm. Yeah, I know, I know there's a lot of times in my life where I have thought that that was the way it was because that's what it says, you know? Yes and, that leads me into the, one of the, things that stuck in my head as we're all taught as children about the Constitution and that all men are created equal. And that's something that I took at very literally, and have interpreted that really literally. And it seems to lead into that that other autistic trait of not really understanding social hierarchy. Sure. And that there are those things. And so those two, those two things have acted very kind of opposing me in a lot of ways. And I'm, I'm wondering if you've had similar experiences with that or other things that are taken literally or ways of looking at things, or maybe there are stories about social hierarchy and boundaries that you didn't understand at some point. That's a lot of questions. Sorry. Okay. It's okay. As far as created equally, I never thought of it as relating back to that, but I can see how it certainly would because I know I viewed people as thinking like me and not in a negative way, not in a way that I can understand what people are thinking, more of a, when I didn't understand that other people have different experiences that would cause them to think differently. I started out with this level playing field of thinking we're all equal, as you say, said so. And so that made it so that I was quite surprised when I would learn that people think differently. And I'm talking about opinions, not necessarily that they'd have different feelings, in a certain situation, but that they'd have different opinions than I had because again, as a lawyer, you know, it's the constitution, you know, we have to follow it. Exactly. We take it literally. You know, everyone must agree that we should take it literally. And so it was an awakening. to find out that there are so many different interpretations and that makes up so much of the law is interpreting statutes and cases and the constitution from different points of view. Yeah, the the different perspectives can be a bit unnerving. And I know there've been lots of times where I just cannot understand how people could possibly arrive at that. At that conclusion, given the same information, but yeah, yes, exactly. Yes. It's so obvious, right? Right, except it's really not. Right. I mean, everybody does have, whether you're autistic or ADHD or whatever, people have very different outlooks. They have different perspectives. When it comes to ableism and prejudice against autistic people, have you seen that with other people or experienced it yourself? In a sense I experienced that from young because I was treated like I was so called normal or neurotypical, and so experienced that. way. So in a sense, that's a type of ableism when people are always expecting you to be as others are. And then having been having gone to a private parochial school for the first time. for grades. Anyway, that definitely is. Let's all be alike. And you shouldn't think outside the box. And that's where, you know, I even see it in the law. I think that thinking outside the box and being different and not thinking like other people has been an advantage, but it also can be a detriment. When again, people want me to toe the line and be like them. It's one reason why I have a hard time working in a corporation or an organization because I can't, I can't do it. I just can't. you know, have that same mindset that you're supposed to have. So in that way, you know, people didn't know I was autistic. Still, most people don't know. So they wouldn't understand why they were expecting me to act like everyone else and why that was impossible to do so. So you said a lot of people don't know that you are autistic. Right. Do you have strategies or have you developed rules for when you tell people or who you tell or how you interact around that? How do you strategize? Right. Well, because, believe it or not, there's so much bias in the legal profession and also in the legal profession, they're late adapters. So what I mean by that, when it comes to technology, for example, some attorneys are still proud of the fact that they don't have email. So yeah, it takes a long time for people to come around, and I know that there would not be acceptance of me in the legal profession. So I have kept that, you know, to myself. So there are other lawyers don't know, other judges don't know, because there is this, you know, idea of what we think a judge should be, and no one thinks that person would be autistic. There even are, there's at least one other attorney I've talked to who is autistic, not in Arizona. And even she has no clue about how you would approach that as a judge with other judges. So I have only told a couple of close friends and a few family members. I am that certain that I would have pushback from other family members that I'm, I'm not going to tell them. Wow. Wow. Different. This really different than my experience, which has been, you know, I'm just by nature very transparent. And so it's only with like, after the fact thinking, okay, I probably shouldn't have told those people or even. So this is something that I feel like I'm experiencing a bit now, even if I don't tell people. I feel like they know there's something different about me. And it seems like it's more noticeable as I get older. Like there was more grace as a younger person to be a little bit different. And of course I, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is like a melting pot of people that are just kind of, you know, crazy in themselves. do wacky things. So maybe I was more camouflaged there. But as an older person now, I find like I stand out more. And there's this turn up term, the uncanny valley. Are you familiar with that? Usually used to describe when anime or cartoons get too close to being human. It disturbs us. Interesting. And, and so they, and it, it has a creep factor, like people don't want to watch it because of that. And so I'm almost feeling like, and I looked it up today, in fact, about how Uncanny Valley kind of applies to autism. People, especially with higher functioning autistic people, sometimes I think people sense that something's different. bit, but they don't know what it is. And so it creates this, this difference. And then along with that, there's, there's so many autistic traits that could be viewed as like negative personality, right? Like, Things about boundaries things about not understanding, you you don't approach your boss in that way because there's a social hierarchy and, you know, black and white thinking where you're digging your heels in on something. So when we have these, this group of things that I'm talking about the uncanny valley and the personality traits. You know, is it fair to call that ableism? Like, I'm going through my head with this. And is it prejudice? Is it ableism? Where is the line? And how do we get things to shift other than your podcast, which is doing a good job of educating people? Well, thank you. Yes. How do we get people to shift? I agree with you about the personality thing. I think people think my personality is be is that I'm very quiet. And that's not my personality. You know, as you and I are talking, I'm very comfortable talking to you. So I'm not, I wouldn't call myself shy, but when I'm in a social situation with neurotypical people, I do keep very quiet. Like many autistics, I don't always know what to say. I'm afraid I'll say the wrong thing. Or I'm afraid I'll blurt something out that I shouldn't. And also, you know, knowing when it's my turn to speak is a problem. So yes, is it ableism when the other parties don't even understand what it is they're expecting of us? That's I think the whole idea of ableism is still being explored. Looking at it through a legal lens, the American Disabilities Act. Covers people that are handicapped, but is autism a handicap and is having personality traits and being autistic, where it may be off putting to people, something that can fall under. a disability or a legal protection? As an autistic person, as far as a disability, from what I understand under the federal law, it does qualify. But when we talk about employment you know, sometimes employment, the kinds of accommodations we need are not the kind of accommodations employers are used to. So, you know, that's where we see some of the bias come in, I think. I would say that You know, I do think we need to make accommodations and need to understand though what it is an autistic person needs. And that most of all, I think there's not an understanding that these disabilities do interfere with our daily life. You know, you and I can have a conversation and we seem like we're not challenged by life. And then we know when we turn off the camera, we know what the challenges are. each and every day and how much it would help to have someone there to do many of the things we can't do like socialize, right? Or no, you know, like, like, I think I was making I've made a little joke a few times about having a seeing eye dog or a person with me who can interpret like what just happened, you know, but it can be such a a burden on good friends to constantly be asking them, this situation happened. You know, this is how I'm interpreting it. Does that seem right? Yes, yes. Our friends get tired of that. Yes. Right. And you know, I have a therapist, but I only see her once a week. And she's autistic, too. So it's a little like the blind leading the blind sometimes, although she's very good at what she does. Yeah, it's It's a thing. It's a thing that people really don't appreciate and don't understand how hard we work to do or to be in social situations and tasks that other people do effortlessly. Right. And you know, to your point about having someone help us, I was at a function years ago, and there was a politician there, and as he was going from group of person to group of person, he had like an aide next to him, whispering in his ear, Oh, this is the man that was introduced to you at so and so, and he's donated so much to your campaign. And he would say that real fast. And then the politician could shake his hand and say, Oh, thank you. It was so good to see you on such and such a date, you know, and I have never forgotten that because now that I know I'm autistic, I want that kind of person there with me, you know, make sure you say this, make sure you say that, that would be so wonderful. It would be. And. I think there's a lot of people that would be very good at that job. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I would, I would like, let's each order one for Christmas. Okay, and we'll see what happens. I don't know where they're going to come from, or where they're going to get training, but I would like to see that happen. And it doesn't seem like it's that unrealistic. And you know what's interesting? You said they need training. The funny thing is, I imagine that really outgoing people don't need any training. Don't need any training. They're just going to know what to do. It's natural. I'm envious of that. How easily they can talk to other people. They thrive on that in fact. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of times in social situations, I have been very quiet to a point, and then I just say, the heck with it, and I do blurt things out, and I am myself, only to then get quiet afterwards, watching how people are reacting and thinking, oh, you know, I have no idea what I just said, or, or what I said that was wrong, and it's, It's really confusing. It is. Absolutely. And it seems like no matter how much I observe in other people who seem to, you know, are at ease with social things, I still can't pull it off. You know, I'll be convinced I can pull it off and then go to a function and then I'll say something. And I'll see, like you said, that look on people's faces or when I get home, then it just goes over and over in my mind, over and over and over. Why did you say that? Yes. Right. Yeah. You know, and for the longest time I thought other people experience some of that too, and maybe they do to some degree, but probably nowhere near as much. Right. Yes. And so much of my life was just trying to get this information that everyone seemed to have naturally. So I could learn how to converse. So I could learn how to make friends. And I thought everyone else had these same challenges. No, they don't. But you have some superpowers. What are some of your superpowers? I think being creative is one of the ones that I, I really am appreciative of. I can also see things from a point of view that other people don't. And I know that because. There have been times when I've come up with a solution to a problem and everyone's like, Oh, we hadn't thought of that. But to me, it seemed obvious. In fact, I usually stay real quiet because I think this is so obvious, you know, why aren't they saying it? They must have ruled it out. So Those are a couple things that I'm an idea person and then I'm creative. Did you do well in school? I did through high school. And then when I got to college, it was terrible. I didn't know how to study. The environment, being in a classroom with 500 people, that was way too much. And the, the, you know, social situation that is, does exist in school. I just, would go from class to class without speaking to anyone. If I said hello, I thought I was being outgoing just by saying hello. So yeah, it took me 10 years to get my bachelor's degree because I would drop out because of the pressure and then I'd go back and then I'd drop out and go back. Wow. It sounds really stressful. It was. Yes. Yeah, I know. I, I started, I started college at least five or six times. And I'm sure I have enough credit somewhere for some sort of degree, but I don't, but I don't actually have one. Yeah. So, I mean, kudos to you for like keeping at it. And I had the encouragement of my mother at the time who said, even if you take just one course at a time, eventually you'll have a degree. So I had that, and then once I decided I wanted to go to law school, I had that final, you know, inspiration to keep going and get it done. Yeah. Things are so hard for autistic people that there is a really high suicide rate. Yes, absolutely. Do you have statistics off the top of your head on that or, or just information or maybe people you've known? Yes, actually in the last few years I've lost two immediate family members to suicide. So it is something I'm, I'm, Very familiar with. Unfortunately, I believe one of them was undiagnosed autistic and the other one I doubt was autistic. There's not only a high rate of suicide. I think there's a high rate of addiction as well. I'm convinced that people who who are autistic have a harder time of breaking addictions. And you know, we hear about people who smoke and then they quit smoking and I've seen people who I know are autistic who have tried to quit smoking their whole lifetime and they can't do it. So it does make me wonder anyway, and I doubt there's any science regarding that, but it does make me wonder. Well, someone said something. And, and I'm sorry about your losses. I I lost a son to suicide. My son also, I lost a son. And I'm, I talked to his best friend after I found out I was autistic and said, do you think My son was autistic. And do you think he knew because he was such an outside the box thinker and he was, he was a law student also. And his friend said, yeah, I, I, I think he was, I'm pretty sure he was. I don't know if he knew or not. Huh. I see. Yeah. So, hard, hard. It is hard. Yes, it's I believe my son was autistic. Again, I wasn't diagnosed so I had no way of even putting that into context but he had special interests That he would get and then learn everything he could possibly learn about them. So he had a number of things in his life that he had learned so much about and become an expert. And I remember one of his friends saying to me, You know, he could do anything he wanted because he'd learn everything there was about it. So I knew it wasn't just me that saw him that way. I also know he had social challenges. Especially with relationships with, you know, having a girlfriend that was really hard on him, hard for him to do. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds very familiar. Yeah. So what else can we do to educate people and to enact changes. Do you, do you think about that? Do you have ideas? You know, it's, it's easy to get discouraged because of the biases that are out there. And most of those biases are due to a lack of education or information. I think that the approach I'm starting to take is to, rather than say I'm autistic to people that I know are resistant, I start to tell them a trait or something about me without saying the word autism, with the idea that once I've laid the groundwork enough, I will be able to say, see all those things I've told you, that's what autism is. That's why I have trouble with X or Y is because of autism. So it gives them a chance to buy into the traits so that when I finally do tell them, if I do. They, they've had some way to believe it. Otherwise, you know, you get answers like everyone's a little autistic, which is one thing I do not like to hear because it's not true. So let's talk, let's talk about the spectrum because they're, they're confusing things about that too. And I too have done what you just said and also had friends say, Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm neurodivergent also. And, you know, they're not exactly the same thing, neurodivergence and autism. They are all on a spectrum, you know, being a genius is part of that spectrum too, from what I understand. And yeah, there are just, there are a lot of challenges. And then there's also this, I don't, I don't want to make a line because it's a spectrum of like lower functioning and higher functioning autism, but it's something that. I'm not sure how to address. I, I, I want to be fair. I mean, everybody on the spectrum is so different, even though there are all of these common traits, you know, that you may have some, but not all of right. Right. I think that I, when I heard from one more person about it being on a spectrum, which that person sees it as a straight line, you know, from, you know, Black to white kind of thing. And sometimes I think of it more like a scattergram or something. I finally thought to myself, I think maybe what people are mistaking is not the medical definition that we know of, which is social issues, you know, hyper fixated interests and sensitivities. That's all it takes to be diagnosed autistic. Now, these other things that we know are common traits. I think people are thinking they have a few of those traits, so it makes them on the spectrum. And it doesn't necessarily, as you and I know, we have some traits that are neurotypical, but that doesn't make us on the spectrum of neurotypicals. So I think that we're hearing these misstatements by people who really aren't on the spectrum, who think if I have a few traits, That's what makes me a little bit autistic, and I don't think that's true. Yeah, it takes a professional to have the diagnosis, and as has been said, autistic traits are not, they're not separate from being human, they're just exaggerated. Yes, they're still human traits. Yeah. So there's something that was on the tip of my tongue before and I lost it. Let me, give me a sec here. Of course. Oh, the dendrites. So someone said, and the dendrites don't die back. In an autistic brain. Ah, interesting. Have you heard that? I had not heard that before. So there's this book, I'm going to go back and just sort of fast forward. There's this book that my horse trainer a few years ago came across called Horse Brain, Human Brain that got me really, and she's a trauma therapist, and got me really interested in the neurochemicals, which are pretty buzzy right now. A lot of people talk about neurochemicals and different So all different aspects from activities from primitive cultures to what happened to us in COVID. And I started paying more attention to the very base level neuroscience. And so when someone said in an autistic brain, the dendrites don't die back, like we have these neuropathways, right? Like you learn to spell a word. And once you learn the right way, all the wrong ways that you were spelling that word kind of go away. Sure. It explains why I'm a bad speller, but in an autistic person, those other pathways don't all go away. So anytime we're talking about a subject, a lot of autistic people can recall all kinds of facts. about that, or things that are similar, that they've categorized that way. So our brains make these webs. And I think that, to me explains a few things. I have this huge question. It's really a question for a neuroscientist, not not an attorney. But like if we're treated for PTSD, or Or you're making progress in some kind of a personal growth way. The things, the traumas or the things that happen are not going to die back the way they do in a normal brain. I see what you're saying. Sure. And that makes a lot of sense. It's yeah, I'm sure that trauma is differently processed by the autistic brain. It just has to be right. And this goes back to what you were saying about addiction. Like you have some theories. about that. And I wonder if those things are interrelated. That would make sense. How do you rewrite the brain when it has an addiction problem to not have that, you know, how does, how do people do that? I don't think that's possible. Yeah. Well, I think it, I think it's harder and maybe different strategies need to be used, but Exactly. And when they don't need to be guilt and shame that doesn't seem to work for an autistic person. Maybe it does work for people who aren't, but I think there's too much of the system was built around guilt and shame. And that's, you know, when you're talking about people who already are carrying around like you said trauma and guilt and shame from all of that, making them feel ashamed of the fact that they have an addiction problem. I haven't seen that be successful with autistic people. No, and I think that the shame is the main thing behind most addiction and, you know, across the board that that's like how our culture handles handles that it registers in the brain in a different part of the brain than emotions do it registers in the part of the brain with physical pain. Ah, interesting. Yeah, so, hmm. Yeah, so the prejudice, I, I, I imagine someday that there'll be enough education about how different people's brains work. That there'll be legislation also that protects people from Being mistreated because the PTSD and the trauma we're talking about for myself and probably for you just living in a world that's made for people that are different than us racks up enough of that trauma. That I don't know how to say it. Yeah, it's definitely trauma that we have had to deal with since we were quite young, and it continues. And I think that, and I don't know if this is true of you, but I think a lot of autistic people are highly sensitive sensitive to hurt. Sensitive to happiness to we just take delight in things that are that make us happy, you know, but the things that people say that can really hurt us deeply, that just piles on over the years. And so that makes it very hard to deal with PTSD. And I don't know that there are many people who know how to relate to an autistic person with PTSD. And is it even different? I don't know. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not sure. I've been doing this EMDR with my autistic therapist and it's working, you know, it's taken the edge off of all kinds of stuff. So I think that there is hope. I just, I just wish people understood to just arrive and function, how much more work it is. Yes, yes. And the societal norms is that if you don't work an eight hour day, you're lazy or you're, you know, you're unproductive where many of us can work an eight hour day and do all that amount of work in four hours, but then we need to be able to just chill after that or go home and take a nap or something. And that's not valued. The, the work you do is less valued than the amount of hours you put in in some cases. And that's hard for an autistic person, to, to have long hours that go on and on. Yeah, and not fair. Just not fair. Right. Exactly. It should be about what we are able to produce, what we can do. And I think that's why, like, I interviewed A man named Sean about his autism and he was talking about having to learn to not give a hundred and fifty percent, you know, to give seventy percent because his seventy percent was easily a hundred percent of somebody else. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think people know how hard it is for us to even get up in the morning and get going, you know, and yeah, we can be organized, but that doesn't mean we'll go through that whole list and do everything that's on it. Right, right. It's interesting to me how we're all so different too. What, what inspired you to do the podcast? Well, when I learned I was autistic, I did want to tell the world. That was my first thought. I want to tell everyone so they'll know there's nothing wrong with me, which is sort of funny. But I wanted my family to understand what life had been like for me so they could know what autism was from in my case. And I didn't know as much about it as you probably have experienced. We're learning more every day. Ourselves. Yes. And so I did the podcast just as a way to let people know what it'd been like. And as it turned out, my family wasn't that interested in listening to it, which is fine because other people were. So that's how it came about though, as a way to communicate with them. Yeah. And you have, you're in the top one half percent. Yes. That's, that's amazing. Like, are there numbers that go along with that? Do you have any idea what their numbers are? Well, this is from listen notes. And that's who ranks people. And they come up with a listening score. And I think that's based on the number of listeners, how frequently you put out an episode and, you know, whether people continue to listen. So I don't know, because they're not going to tell their proprietary formula. I don't know. But I think those are some of the things that go into it. I think also if a person has lasted a while, you know, cause there are a lot of people who start a podcast and then it just lasts a few episodes. So if you can stay in there years and years, I think that adds to the ranking as well. And how long have you been doing the podcast? This is my fourth year, so January 1st will be starting my fifth year. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I send your podcast to all kinds of people, always forwarding them. I probably forwarded more of yours than mine, which is okay, because I want people to really understand, you know. More people need to understand autism than horses, probably. So, I try to bring, as I've been interviewing people, that has very little or nothing at all to do with horses, I like to bring it back somehow. So, autistic people, People and animals being sensitive and animals. Do you have special animals in your life? Have you felt like you had stronger bonds with them because of the autism? Yes. I never knew it was because of autism. I have cats now, but I'd had dogs my whole life. And then once I was on my own, you know, not married any longer, then it was just easier to take care of cats. But I actually worked on work study in college and working at the local zoo. So That's where I developed a love of birds and I had had a parrot, parakeet, a macaw at one time. Also, my father had what I call a gentleman's farm. It was a gentleman farmer, so to speak, which was six acres. And he had, you know, sheep and horses, no cattle. And then I guess to add to that in college, I took a class called animal science. Which was about cattle, horses, sheep, chickens, and those kinds of things. I, I've had chickens off and on throughout my life. So yeah, I'm definitely an animal person. How about ESP or, or special abilities, clairvoyance, clairaudience, anything like that in with you or your family that you, any connection you see between that and being on the spectrum? You know, I didn't call it ESP, but I know there's cases where I can size up a person immediately, and it is like a sense I have for who they are. And so, you know, we're often told that we don't have empathy. But I think autistic people have something else we maybe can't explain and maybe ESP is the right word for it. And that is the way we can size up a person, sometimes a situation, just almost instantly. And I have heard it from other autistic people as well. I do know one autistic person who, yes, has, vivid dreams about the future, for example, and that, and then many of those things actually come to fruition prophetic dreams. Yeah. Yes. Now I felt like I could, and now I believe it's due to autism, see patterns and trends. Now we know patterns are, but the seeing those patterns helped me predict trends in the. past and therefore I could get ahead of them and, and be more successful in whatever it was I was doing. for example, in the legal profession, advertising used to be illegal. We couldn't advertise. And then as soon as the Supreme Court said we could, well, again, attorneys are late adapters. They thought it would be wrong to advertise, it would take down the respect of our profession, but I ran with it and started the advertising and did it in a sophisticated way. It became more of a. informing people rather than ambulance chasing as you've heard that term probably. So I think then finally attorneys started to adopt that. But I feel like we were ahead of the curve with, with advertising and doing it in a way that respected the listeners. Yeah, the pattern seeing patterns can be can be a really good thing. Yes, I value that very much. Yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about? You know, one of the things that I have really been surprised by but appreciate is the amount of support there is from the autistic community. And I even see it in YouTube as well as podcasts. And I like to encourage that amongst podcasters, that we really should support each other. I don't see us as competing. No, I don't either. Yeah, we all have a similar goal and that is to increase awareness to provide information and education and it's to all of our benefit to help each other. So as I see that I'm really pleased about it. Yeah, I think that that's a powerful, it's a powerful statement and a way that more education can get out there for sure. Yes, definitely. And I think that's the whole point. Yes, it is. It's the reason we start podcasts. I think, you know, you want people to know and all of us have the same goal, really. Absolutely. Well, I think this might be a good place to wind up. Okay. Thank you so much. I have enjoyed getting to chat with you and get to know you a little bit. It's been wonderful. I'm glad we got to talk. Yeah, me too.