Kimberly Dunn helps unpack" Charlie's Buck"

https://getgroundedequine.com/

Kimberly is well known trainer and breeder of Fell Ponies and other breeds in the PNW.  Trainers here on the West Coast are embracing "The Quiet Revolution" with open hearts and heads.

Unpacking issues in training and psychology like: threshold, regulation, and the use of round pens and animal communication/communicators are themes that come up in this and the next couple Podcast in this Series on "Charlie Bucks"- 

Transcript

0:01

Hi, I am Ishi Abel with the Horse Human Connection Matrix, and I am so happy to have Kimberly Dunn of Get Grounded here with me today to help process some of my last episode and the dilemma of how we walk the line with horse training and honoring the horse and what happens when that doesn't go so well and all the different layers that go along with it. Thanks for being here, Kimberly. My pleasure. It's, it's great to chat again, Ishi. Yeah. Yeah. Always a pleasure to see you. So what, what do you have for me after watching that? Wow. Well, you know, the number one thing that hits home for me because I am a foundation relationship-based trainer. Mm-hmm. Is this, this change that's coming and being in the middle of that I get hit with it daily as not only do I train my own projects, but I'm training for other people. Mm-hmm. And, these old ways, which are now becoming antiquated. Yeah. Is something I'm always up against because I do my best to put the time to build the relationship with the horse and the foundation, and I let the horse direct that journey. So the horse is the number one voice about how fast we go. How much do we a accomplish in a day? You know, that's all horse directed. And I utilize feedback loops to tell me how much can the horse chew today. And, as well as reflection where maybe I asked too much today and maybe I didn't set the horse up for success. Which is something we all do, right? We're all trying to navigate that of where do we go with the horse that feels honorable, ethical doesn't compromise who we believe we are and want to be. And we're not asking the horse to be compromised as well. Mm-hmm. So with that comes a whole shift change for me in method, you know, so you brought up in your video about natural horsemanship methods and how there can, even though it sounds like the nicest approach mm-hmm. I'm not out to try to dig a method. However, there are components with that method that override. What is being true to ourselves and true to the horse, and we have to acknowledge that. I just wanna say that, that, that, that what you just said has been echoed many places recently, like I'm hearing that all over the place. So we're not, we're not alone in coming to that conclusion. Right. Right. Let's talk about though, why is that so if you think historically, just talking really generally, historically, you know, our ancestors' relationship with horses was surrounding utility. Right? We needed the horse to survive. The horse provided the ability for us to do so many things in our daily life. Mm-hmm. Well. There are lots of technical replacements for that kind of relationship. But a remnant of the mindset still exists, right? And so what we kind of see in equine community is this mindset of the horse still is here for us. So what is that for us about? Well, it seems now it's more about entertainment, recreation. Sport, you know, competitiveness. So really the, the grand mindset hasn't changed much for, for a huge part of the equine community, whereas it's, it's about the horses providing something for us. And I think most people would agree, yeah, we have to take care of our equines, but. What is the level of that care? And it seems to be the biggest fault is lack of acknowledgement of emotional regulation. So for me now, even as a foundation trainer, I see the number one priority is. My self-awareness and my emotional regulation and then helping the horse to learn how to emotionally regulate in the context in the world that I keep asking that horse to be with me. Mm-hmm. And with me. So that's a huge mind shift, right? But how I approach now. Shaping behavior and reinforcing behavior to a high rate of reliability. I won't compromise my integrity of that. The horse directs that path and they have to own it. And when you have experience after experience, like I have now for many years where I've let the horse own it. Find pathways for them owning the experience. It's kind of comparable to when you've had a homemade dark chocolate truffle and you'll probably never eat Hershey's chocolate ever again. Right, right. So these experiences now, when I've shifted my mindset, which affected my agenda. Both small agendas that happen daily as well as the grand agendas of what I want to accomplish. I have to have patience and be respectful of what the horse is telling me. At the individual level so that I can meet their needs, meet them where they're at. Mm-hmm. To help shape that, that behavior. So let me just get a little bit more clear about some of what you're talking about, where you are letting the horse dictate it or set, set the pace, set. Some of the, the learning are we talking about like this term I've heard a lot recently too, is habitation and, and that's what we're, what we're doing. We're creating these neuropathways in the horse by training and again and again that create less reactivity and more regulation through habituation. Is that, is that how you would say it? Correct. So I noticed when you were speaking in your video, you talked about yourself in your journey about being on the spectrum, that you became aware of memory chains. Mm-hmm. So that's really what, how I see myself when I am. Wanting to create a high rate of reliability with a behavior mm-hmm. Is I'm tapping into what the horse does automatically, which is very autistic, which is building memory chains. Mm-hmm. So I utilize sequence patterns mm-hmm. That help the horse develop and understand. The outcomes of things as well as for lack of better term, trigger, trigger can be used in a negative way. It can be used in a positive way. Mm-hmm. But to trigger a sequence of events that the horse is willing to offer. And so where a lot of people start out with a q. And then they use all this pressure and release or, or dominance or force for the horse to guess what that cue means. And giving a release of pressure or a release of dominance or a moment of rest is supposed to be the way that the horse will learn to repeat that behavior, right? Where I found if you tap into. A positive motivator and you dial into that innate quality where the horse is seeking a certain outcome. Mm-hmm. You can start shaping it through a memory chain like you talked about, or I call a sequence pattern. Sequence pattern. Okay, that makes sense. Sequence pattern, events. So the horse learns I'm a predictable person. They learn reliability. I become something that they know. I will show them what is the beginning of the pattern. Mm-hmm. And they know where we will end together with impact. Can, can you gimme an i i I described for people, I, I think I have an idea'cause I've come and, and worked with you a little bit a couple of times, but what is the pattern and can you speak to what happens emotionally with you and the horse while you're creating this pattern? And how is that related? Yeah. So the process quite often, I call it deconstruction. So if we wanna go back real quick remember I was talking about the mindset mm-hmm. Of mainstream equine world is product oriented. Mm-hmm. Okay. So they're, they're wanting in 30 to 60 days, they want walk tri canner, both directions picking up correct leads. Right. And so there's this mindset of all these, we have to have these. My milestones accomplished by a certain amount of time. And if we, if we think more about process, process oriented work with our horses rather than product. Mm-hmm. And we can start deconstructing. What is the end thing we're looking for? And then if I start going, okay, what does that all look like in terms of what am I doing with my body through each step? What does the horse need to do with their body, with each step? Mm-hmm. And the horse memorizes that. Mm-hmm. Through a positive motivator. So deconstruction, for example, let's just talk about something where we need to be able to walk up to a horse or i'll, I'll extract the word need. Many of us want to be able to walk up to a horse with a piece of tack and put it on their bodies, right? Mm-hmm. So if I think about how do I want to have a horse understand that whole experience where something inanimate is connected to their body? And they're going to feel it through their body and they may feel me through that piece of equipment. Mm-hmm. So I'm already starting to think about it. In a deconstructed way. So I'm gonna break it down into the steps, right? So the first thing, what do I need to know? I need to know that this horse is gonna be okay if I start approaching them. So I'm giving them eye contact, I'm walking towards them in a direct way, and I have something in my hands, right? Mm-hmm. So that. That might be something I start to deconstruct all the way to my approach. No equipment. I'm just going to approach and retreat, approach, touch and retreat approach, touch some more and retreat, then I might start adding the object, right? Mm-hmm. And all the while through this, I'm looking for the feedback. Is it okay for me to add more? So what the horse begins to learn is Kimberly is this source that helps me find end goals I like. Mm-hmm. Through positive motivators. And she's going to always create these patterns of things that happen. Mm-hmm. And she builds on them. So it's. It's a lot like math, right? So whatever I deconstruct in an event or an activity, I start out. Simple. And then I add more and I add more and I add more. Always getting feedback. Can I add more today? So you're break breaking it into little tiny steps. Correct. And little tiny intentions like Yes. The whole thing about like getting a horse in the trailer starts with lifting one hoof. Right? Exactly. Exactly. And. Allowing the horse to give you a lot of feedback and that they know they're, you're gonna really listen to what they think about what you just showed them or introduced to them. Creating trust you. You're creating trust. And when they tell you, no, that's enough for today, you honor that. Quite often, almost always, the next time they're like, I'm ready for you to add more. But they learn. This predictable pattern process with you. So I wanna jump to the video for a second.'cause there's there it seems the more that I process this and the more that I think about it, I think the main problem that happened was I. I had established a communication with the horse that if he needed me to get off, he would touch my boot with his nose. Yes. Rather than try to buck a human off. And we did a couple sessions with animal communicators even. And when I was working with this trailer trainer, I explained that to her, but when he was down at her place a couple of times, she was able to navigate or push through that in a different way, creating a neuro pathway in her head that said, oh, he doesn't really mean it. Right. So it's over overriding Uhhuh, the voice of the horse. And it always ends up in something unsafe. Yeah. Or it ends up in the horse learning coping mechanisms that don't benefit them. You talked about Csy being a checked out mare in your video Yeah. When I got her. Yeah. Right. And she learned most likely that as a coping mechanism mm-hmm. To whatever stimulus. That overrode her communication of you've overwhelmed me, you've taken me over threshold. Mm-hmm. I don't understand this. And you know, some horses will be like Charlie, who say, you didn't listen to me. So now I just have to speak louder and be an asshole mm-hmm. While I speak. And other horses will figure out a coping mechanism where they just check out and they're not really present. The thing about horses like Cyps e is a lot of people think that they have accomplished something. Yeah. They've taught a horse to check out. And when you have a lot of experiences working with horses and riding horses through a relationship based mode where you honor the voice of the horse and everything becomes, very communicative. There's a lot of conversation going on. When you go and ride a checked out horse, it's an incredibly unsettling feeling. Yeah. For me. Yeah. So, get me back on track because, okay. Alright. So I feel like on a bunny all this stuff is, is very pertinent to it. It, it is. But so I, I guess I have that. I have some guilt around the moment when I could see them escalating up on top of the hill and turning in circles and he put his nose on her boot and then looked at me. Yeah. Yeah. And I like in that moment, I said something, but I wasn't. Forceful enough, you know, I said, how about you get off him and come ride Sipsy and let me walk him for a while. And when she disagreed with me, I should have said, no, it's time to get off. But it's that line. And you know, like maybe this is something to speak to too. I mean. It probably doesn't happen with you'cause you're a trainer who, who knows what you're doing when you take on a horse for someone else. There may be negotiations with that person. There may be needing to educate that person as to what you're doing. But maybe a broader, like to zoom out because there, there are many different sides to this equation is like, how do we navigate our intuition with our horses when they're at a trainer? And yeah, the trainer's responsibilities there and their competence level. Yeah. The, that whole scene the hill scene with the two horses and you are with a trainer. There are so many things we could talk about. But I get a sense that it's fitting to point out, let's think about the power we give. Our trainers and our teachers. One thing we have to acknowledge is in the equine community, there is potential for a lot of bullying and ego tripping. And this, I'm not trying to speak against your trainer at all. I'm speaking more about in a general sense. We as horse owners who are ultimately responsible for the future, the welfare, the emotional wellbeing of our equines, it's common practice for us to hand them over to a professional and then feeling like we are limited in our power to be the voice. For that horse. And so that is something that needs to be resolved and needs to be figured out because trainers are not ultimate authorities. TR trainers are they, they make mistakes and giving them unilateral decision making and sub. Subjecting yourself to whatever they say is, is biblical is a dangerous thing. I've had many clients who I had to do equine related trauma therapy with mm-hmm. Rebuilding their confidence because they were directly hurt by the decisions made by a trainer. Hurt by the horse, by the decision hurt by the horse of a trainer, hurt by the horse. Correct. Which destroys all trust in relationship every which way it does. Wow. It does. So this notion and it goes back to that mindset of we're in this world where horses are, are entertainment, they're our recreation and they're our sport. Creates this, this sense of, well, I have this equine and I'm gonna give it to a trainer and when it comes back it's gonna meet my needs. And there's little accountability. Mm-hmm. Or responsibility with the owner that they have to be very proactive. Quite often they're getting back green horses. But in your situation, you talked about Ypsi who had had a lot of groundwork, a lot of training. She went for finish work and you ended up two or three steps back and you talked almost at the beginning. Yeah. You talked about having to go back to groundwork and it took you a year, a whole year to build back trust where I could, where I could even start writing her again and yeah. And so, I mean, that's a whole topic there that you know, horses going from trainers to people. And so that's about horses going from one skill set. One ability to manage behavior, be it the right way or the wrong way to manage behavior, behavior's, being managed and then going into a scenario where you have people who think it's transferable and all I need to know is I. How to use the aid or how to push the button. And I don't need to consider emotional regulation or what the horse is telling me. I don't need to consider that maybe context that I'm creating is way different than context that the trainer created, you know, all of these things. So really there's a whole topic that could be, you could do a whole series on trainer. Owner relationships, that dynamic, that power dynamic in a way where we can empower horse owners more to expect, that this is a team effort, you know, so it, what what's occurring to me as you talk is like the journey that I've been on, you know, that parallels a lot of journeys. People have, have been on with this and, and this place where a lot of ho horse owners are, where they want their horse to be further trained and don't have the ability to do it themselves. It, it's almost as if, it's almost as if we've been doing the whole thing wrong. And the potentiality for teaching horse ship, which is my new word the relationship with a horse encompasses training, encompasses behavior, encompasses self-regulation, and emotional processing of the person, which could be pretty heavy therapy. Yeah. And, and that this is, this is really what horses are offering is this package. And up till now we've only like played with little pits of the package and, and it's, it's not a hole, like, like holistic horse ship. And I'm, I'm just thinking about this as I'm talking, it's all forming in my mouth like right now, real time as if we were to offer a package that was holistic horse ship. It would involve all of those things and it would require the teachings that only a very few people have the awareness of today. Right. But that's kind of what the quiet revolution might be about. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, I, in addition to training, I do mentorships. Mm-hmm. And quite often. What I see is lacking with people who have horses is a lot of skill in observation. Mm-hmm. And then interpreting what they see. Mm-hmm. And this speaks to all of these established narratives that quite often are formulated on this. We have this duality, we have this. Conflict and that requires some, one of the individuals to speak louder and be more dominant. Mm-hmm. To, to convince the, the subject that they must comply rather than going, okay, I have this horse now that I'm gonna form this relationship with. Where the horse is gonna teach me how to really pay attention, how to pay attention to them in a meaningful way, and how to pay better attention to myself. So I have a practice quite often with new students where we just spend a lot of time observing and we call out observations and then we try to find patterns. With what we're observing. And it's not okay to come up with, with a narrative. It's not okay to come up with a conclusion.'Cause what happens I find a lot of times is people see behavior and they wanna create a story to explain the behavior they see. And so they'll create a narrative quite often when you do that too early. You don't test your theories about what you're seeing which might mean changing context changing equipment, changing what you're doing before you come to a conclusion. But what happens is people come to a conclusion too early and then what happens next? They formulate a plan. So formulating a plan based on a false conclusion, where are you gonna end up? Not where you wanna be. For sure. Exactly. So that's, that's huge. That's important. And that's why I try to keep people on the ground with their two feet on the ground, more interactive, moving, figuring out how to move together with the horse in, in a synchronized way. Works on all of those skills that we need to develop. This really lacking. Even with a lot of professional trainers, I see it lacking. Yeah. So, but when you start getting into that kinda work mm-hmm. You kinda wanna stay there, you know?'cause you ask the question, do I really wanna ride anymore? Yeah. And I'll be one that says, you never have to ride again. I don't care if you ever ride a horse. What I care about. Is how you spend time with a horse is mutually meaningful for the best. Yes. And if I could ride and have it be mutually meaningful, I would do that. But I've had very few experiences outside of the ranch or outside of riding with someone like you or Carissa, where it is meaningful. And that just may speak to my. Un expertise in, in riding and the journey that I've been on to learn a lot of this stuff. You know, the co-created rides that I would have at the ranch that were not, that, where I had no agenda and the horses took me along. Yes. And you know, we were on 200 acres with a perimeter fence where we could, we could do that. They live there. They know there. Those were meaningful sitting in the round pen with the horses and the musical instruments earlier that week, that was meaningful. Horse hiking has been meaningful. Yeah. I do not want to be in a position again where I need to make my horse go up this four foot dirt embankment because she just told me no. I, I don't wanna do that anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it when, like I said, it goes back to that chocolate analogy, you know, once you've tasted something that's really, really good. Yeah. And really speaks, feeds your soul, speaks to your heart. It's hard to do that other stuff. It's really hard. Yeah. And you know, I have clients who come to me who have agendas mm-hmm. With their horses and quite often I'm thinking missing out. From my perspective there, you're missing out on what this is all about. Because we don't need them for these things. We don't need them to win ribbons. Mm-hmm. Can it be fun? Absolutely. Can people go and do events and have fun with their horse? Absolutely. But there's too much focus on the ribbon. There's too much focus on the competition. There's too much focus on. That product and no acknowledgement of the process and how that's just the space to be where there's the peace, there's the joy, the delight. I moved to a rapport building model now where I work at Liberty. Mm-hmm. And I use a positive reinforcement model. So I'm setting up a mindset. In the beginning with the horse where they see if they can pay attention to their themselves and to me and my influence it will end in a positive outcome. And that mode I can be there forever with the horse because. It becomes this, this process where I can ask the horse, are you paying attention to when my toe is pointed this way, or when my toe is pointed that way and they can show me. Yeah. I'm paying attention to that. And so all these opportunities where the horse gets to freely show me their level of awareness. Mm-hmm. Their intelligence in solving a problem. Mm-hmm. Just through this utilization of a positive motivator which is tapping into innate seeking, which we all do, you know it's, it's just a beautiful place to be and it feels so good. It keeps me on my two feet. Way longer than most people who are focused on, we gotta get'em walk truck canner in, you know, in both directions. Some of my horses that I do foundation relationship training on mm-hmm. They're not picking up the canner for a year. Yeah. What's the hurry? And then I see people who've got'em, you know, they threw all the equipment on'em at once. They hopped on'em in a round pen and first or second ride, they're doing all three gates. And you can see the horse is like, holy crud, am I overstimulated? Am I overwhelmed? And it just, it's overridden. Yeah. You know, there, there, there's, that's just an experience I've abandoned. I have no interest in that anymore and I'm hoping that other people I. Will feel comfortable moving into that space. That's just, that just is, you know, you talked about being for hours. Mm-hmm. In a round pen, in a different way. You know, you're, you're sort of repurposing the, the round pen. And I love that. We see round pens, you know, a lot of people will build them with solid high walls. Mm-hmm. You know why? Because the pressure load is gonna be so over the top, there's a risk that that horse is gonna go up and over or try to go through. And it, it adds this emphasis of demand. You must focus on me. So I have a round pen. Mm-hmm. And it's three strands of electrical tape that are not even electrified. And I know when I take my horse into a round pen that I have to be very well aware of my pressure, the amount of pressure I put on that animal, because they will go through it. Mm-hmm. So I'm more impressed with taking a horse into that space where there is no escape. You know, if we're asking a horse to move in a round pen through pressure. It's not natural because horses will tell other horses to move. There's a way out, and once that other horse is far enough away mm-hmm. And has moved according to the direction of another horse, then pressure is done and over with. But the round pen scenario, the old way of utilizing a round pen mm-hmm. Doesn't give any release. Really? No. Just a place for the horse to go. Right. Right. And I mean two, you know, two things occur to me as you're talking about that and you're, you're absolutely right about like how we use round pens. And the image that came into my head as you're talking about that, is when I'm in the round pen with them doing, you know, therapy type work or just hanging out with no intention, sometimes a horse will go and stand at the gate and bump the gate. Yes, you can go out. They, they're just, they're asking and they're there. I mean, they're enclosed in there, but they also know that if they ask to go out, they will be let out. And the exercise that, you know, Monty Roberts came up with that is so everywhere in horse training. I, I've seen a softer version of that in pastures where people will just. I'm curious about your conclusions about this because it is about less pressure, but it also is about some horse behavior is they will go to the horse where the horse is standing in the pasture and take up that space and the horse will move and then they will walk to where the horse is and they will take up that space and the horse will move somewhere else. And usually about the third time, the horse will start following them around. Just like what happens in Join it, but it's a much softer version. Have you seen that? Do, what do you think about that? I don't see any problems with that. I think working in a larger space is more ideal that offers the horse the ability to give you feedback by responding. Mm-hmm. So working at Liberty, yes. Quite often in my arena when I'm working at Liberty, I'll have, I have gates at each end. Mm-hmm. And I'll leave them open. One opens into a courtyard, one opens into a small pasture, and those gates are open. And so if the horse chooses to disengage or if they need to step out to just check on where are the other horses or whatever, and come back. Mm-hmm. That gives me valuable information about what they think about me. What I'm doing and what I'm offering. Wow. So, yeah. So that's huge. Like, that's such a huge novel thing. Like that's amazing. Yeah, it is. Because I, I'm not looking for a false sense that a horse wants to be with me. If, if the horse blocks away and says, you're not that interesting today, and I've got other things on my mind, or I'm unsure about you, so I need to get away from you, I wanna know that because I want the challenge of, well, what do I need to change about myself to be more appealing? And or what is it about the context I've asked them to be in that's concerning to them? So that, that brings up an, an important point from what happened to me and, and how and why I brought in my own personal you know, where I was in the midst of my EMDR with this issue. I mean, like, it was, it was repeating itself, I felt like most of the time. My regulation was okay. Although I had that fear, like I had that fear about me getting on Charlie that I couldn't even tapping it, even like honoring it, even like sitting with it. It, it would go away and it would come back, it would go away and it would come back and it turned out to be, there was something very real to be afraid about. But my, you know, like how are, I guess a big part of this is how. The owner or the trainer's emotional state affects what's happening with the horse. And I guess the idea of like, what do we do about that is so wide, how do we navigate that? That's a huge question because it's so individual, but it's also super pertinent to what we're talking about and to the idea that there could be, you know, a real. Holistic horses because that's a big part of it. Right. Right. Well talking about your emotional state and your emotions related to your confidence mm-hmm. With him. And whether he can sense that or not. I would say yes. Even if it's just at the physical level, because you know, if you're in a state of not feeling fully safe or comfortable mm-hmm. You're gonna release certain chemicals and you're gonna smell a certain way. Your heart rate is gonna do certain things, you know, your whole nervous system is affected. Mm-hmm. And what people don't realize is horses can memorize a moment in time. Kind of almost like multi-dimensionally, where quite often we rely on the visuals or what we hear in a moment to remember it. Mm-hmm. They're able to fully assess their body in terms of position. What they're doing with their body, what they're doing in their body, in relationship to whatever else is around. But they're also taking up notes on you. What's your nervous system like right now? How do you smell? There could be body gestures, expressions that you're conveying when you're in that state. They're picking up on that. And so these are the things that. Are not being addressed or given enough time and space that is lending to disconnect between horses and humans, which in turn leads to dangerous situations. Speaking of dangerous situations like moving forward. What would you say about, like, I have, I, I've hung out with him in his, in his barnyard. I haven't put him back in the, no, I did put him back in the brown, in the, in the round pen. We actually did a a coaching session with someone and he's been, he's been great with me on the ground and, and it doesn't seem like I don't see the effects of what happened, but I also haven't tried to put a saddle on him. Is he, is he trainable? I, I mean, is he, of course he's trainable. My question is, what do you think it would take for someone to ride him and do you think he will always buck? Yeah, that's a really good question. So I've always perceived bucking is a response. To some sort of overstimulation over threshold. Mm-hmm. In initially. Mm-hmm. But it can become a habituated learned behavior that gets triggered. So, in other words, some horses get to the point where I have these emotions and I have these feelings. And I can't figure out how to make it all stop and get a release from them unless I buck. So in other words, there's a memorization of a, of a sequence pattern, right? Mm-hmm. And certain, certain triggers are happening to, that, leads to that behavior, and it can become a go-to behavior whenever the horse feels like. This person's not listening to me, or I'm telling you No, or I have concerns. And so it, it just becomes a habit. Then going to your question, can that somehow dissipate? Is there a way, is there an approach to fade that go-to behavior? Absolutely. Good. The, the question is though, what is the time involved? Mm-hmm. And what is the process involved and how long, you know, how long will it take? For some horses it could be a quick, easy fix. Mm-hmm. For other horses, maybe not. And so you have to. Except that you're not gonna try to shortcut and you're gonna be more thorough and detailed and thoughtful and you just, it's a journey. You just have to see where it goes. But it, I see a buck, you know, a lot of people think that's just part of the process. We get on'em, we buck and we ride the buck. We know better than that. Yeah, no, the thing is, is you know, the professional. With the big guns can ride the buck, but just because they rode it doesn't mean it's gone. It's there. And then the question is, when will it come out again? So a horse can learn, well this dude or dude at knows how to ride the buck and they've got all this other methods of containing me. That's not transferable necessarily to, you know, the owner or the novice. Right. And so it, I believe any kind of vicey dangerous behavior, there is always the potential. It's, I look at it like it's a deep groove. Think about a deep groove that happened. Somebody gouged your wood coffee table. Mm-hmm. How deep is that groove? What does it take to get that groove sanded out? You know, some, some deep gouges are gonna need heavy grit, sandpaper, very, you know, lots of levels of heavy grit working your way up to fine grit, and that takes time, right? Mm-hmm. Other, other gouges and grooves might take less sandpaper. So, I'm sorry, my, my super autistic brain has to add, has to add this to your coffee table and it's kind of an interesting it's kind of an interesting metaphor because there's a way to get dense and grooves out of wood, which is put a warm cloth on it and a hot iron because those cells are still alive. I mean, they're not alive'cause the tree's dead, but the cellulose will expand and come up and you can get rid of it with this heat and moisture. Yeah. Yeah. As well as with, as well as with all of this, you know, layered sanding and it's all part of, it's all part of the, the horse or the groove in the coffee table. Right. But let's go back, let's talk, let's talk reality about sanding out a groove. Okay. So we know that there are triggers related to Charlie's bucking certain, and it's definitely when he probably reaches a certain amount of emotional feeling, overwhelmed. Bam, I know how to get this to end, right? So. What needs to happen if we go back to what we were talking about earlier, deconstructing end products into their small bites. So creating sequence patterns, we may have to formulate a whole new kind of sequence pattern. So it's kind of like another route to that end goal that we want, because there may be too many triggers in the, in the. Way he has had it presented to him. That's going to risk risk that quite often I've found when I've had to reroute and create a new kind of sequence pattern to towards an end goal. Once you kind of get'em over it and they start showing reliability, then you can start inserting the old parts of the old. Pathway and your triggers are not as evident. You, you see what I'm saying? So you can go back to possibly old ways after you've created a new path, a new pattern. Yeah. That, that, that, that does make sense to me. Yeah, so I mean, I have an important decision here because I, I love Charlie. I, I like the work that I do with horses that isn't riding them, but I have the, like, I have a responsibility I. To this horse that if something happens to me that I want him to have value in this world that hasn't caught up yet to the intrinsic value of horses. So that he will be cared for. And he's a young horse. Yeah. I'm 62 and he's nine. So, you know, there's potential that he could have another home. I don't know if I'm ever gonna get the image of her coming off over his head and doing two flips and him continuing to buck outta my head. Right. Right. So no matter how much confidence I were to build on other horses, you know, riding is not that important to me, that I'm gonna spend that much time. Doing those things. So now it's really about what's best for the horse. Right? And you know, the work you're doing through these podcasts and talking to all these people who are thinking outside of the box mm-hmm. Is gonna help not only Charlie, but so many other horses that are in the same situation as Charlie. And that's finding value in other ways. With our equines and not just saying that the value is only this, you know, where it hits our recreation, our entertainment, and our sport that we can find the value in any horse if we're just willing. To open our minds and shift our mindsets and so that's what you're doing. I'll get a little emotional. Yeah, no, I've got goosebumps the way you started saying that because that is, that is the point. And you know, part of my answer it is in what you said, so thank you. You're welcome. You're very welcome. This has been great, Kimberly, and I think this is a perfect place to end. I so appreciate you being available for this and all of your wisdom and the work that you do in this world and with horses. Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity. Yeah. All right. I'll talk to you soon, Uhhuh. Bye-Bye.