Charissa explains the psychology behind some of Charlie's early training, and trouble shoots bucking in general.

It is always a treat to get Charissa Schmidt to weigh in on subjects, her wisdom, experience and education make for well rounded discussions. Any parent, horse trainer, or person in any relationship will gain insights from this talk. The threshold of tolerance, Jungian and humanistic principles, and transference all weave into this parallel discussion about horse training and relationship.

Transcript

0:01

Hi, this is Ishi Abel with the Horse Human Connection. I have Carissa Schmidt with me today to comment on the YouTube and podcast that I did about Charlie Bucks. And a little bit of background is that Carissa had worked with Charlie when he was five. Four. Several months and got him to a place where she was able to get on and taught me a little bit more about training in the process. Mm-hmm. So I'm anxious to hear all the things that you have to say. Oh. So wanna remind people that Krisa is a clinical supervisor and a Help me out therapist. So I have a LPC, so I have a master's in clinical mental health counseling, and then I, my license is as a licensed professional counselor in Oregon, and then I'm. Credentialed to supervise LPCs and MFT, which are marriage and family therapists as well in the state of Oregon. So, okay. So because they're the, the story as I told it on the podcast has some elements of my treatment in EMDR possibly affecting, some of my reality on, on that particular day too. So you're very well qualified to comment on the entire thing as a horse trainer, as a therapist, the whole thing. Okay. I think I'm gonna start within the scope of the horse trainer first and just like, mm-hmm. So I listened to your podcast. You had told me a little bit about what was going on first, and then we tried to connect and talk and the scheduling didn't work. So I got the story for the first time from you through the podcast, and then I kind of, I responded and sent you some talking points and, and I, what I wanna do is just maybe model for the audience. Kind of the kind of conversations that I might have like that we've had before. Mm-hmm. About training. And we're gonna do the horse stuff first, and then we might dive into the psychology a little bit. And I guess like another thing that I will add as far as my training and credentials go is that like. In the therapy world. So I have training and systems theory, but I also have my passion. My, the place where I stay most curious and interested is in union analytical psychology, depth psychology. And then I am also in the process of training to become a Ian Sand Play therapist, which is kind of. And this is all like within the psychoanalytic tradition. And then and then I'm also trained as a play therapist and a play therapy supervisor. And so we'll talk about play. We're gonna, we're, that's kind of where I wanna get the conversation to go. So I'm gonna get myself cozy. Okay. So let's talk about, I think one of the first things to talk about is just like, why do horses buck? And if I'm gonna throw out like three big main reasons why horses, buck, they're gonna buck if they're afraid.'cause it's a fight or flight. It's a fight response. Right? They're afraid they're gonna buck if they're in pain. Mm-hmm. Because the pain often triggers fear and then they're gonna buck when they're playing. These are very different neurological states. Same behavior, different neuroscience. And that's gonna inform like my training approach as we go into the conversation a little bit more. And so I guess a little bit of background for the listeners too. Like you alluded in the podcast to maybe a possible injury. That this horse has in the corrals before he got him. Mm-hmm. And, and so when I was working with him as a trainer, I did a lot of rehab work in his backend to strengthen his hind end because if you watch him, he is, very narrow behind. So there's some confirmational things and he doesn't track up at all in his hind end. Mm-hmm. He is improved with conditioning. And also he bunny hops in the canner. So like, what that means is that there's not really a clear three beat stride. He tends to move his hind legs together in a hop. And so I pushed you. To get him evaluated and make sure that there wasn't anything like medically wrong with him. Just to kind of get clear on like, is this, is his movement pattern, a pain response? And so this is, there's some history. This guy. There is, he never can I, yeah. Can I clarify there a little bit? Like, I, I do remember some of the exercises you had me do way back when I was at the other property. When you were working. Right, right. Which was like backing him uphill. Yeah. And it seemed like there was a weakness in kind of on the inside of a stifle that we were particularly working on. Yes. And then, and I did go ahead and have the vet out here last winter. Yeah, and that was like after you sent me some videos of him in the RAM pen and, and I was just like, he is not. Even behind in his backend. And he is, and he was able to track up on one side, but not on the other. And not on the other as well. Yeah. He, he had some trouble, but when they said he was fine to write, he passed a lameness exam. Yes. And said, yes, I see a little something here, but it doesn't mean he can't be ridden. And that was, that was the professional opinion. And what you saw also, we saw an improvement because you had me we were doing weaves. Over poles. Over logs. Yes. Yes. Small logs, like six yes. Logs. And and that seemed to strengthen him a little bit. But yeah, so this is a, there was still like a, every once in a while that back rear end will still get kind of tight. Not nearly as bad as it used to, but his back glute will. Be hard and if I do some massage and some release on it, it will, it will soften up. And I kept checking in while he was down at the trainer saying, are you seeing any problems? Is there any mm-hmm. You know, anything that would indicate, you know, muscle soreness or, or stiff glutes or, or anything in his gait that would suggest that he's in pain or not quite right. And she was like, oh, he's fine. So that was her take on that. Right. Okay, so here we are. We've done our due diligence and we've like assessed the physical domain, like we've assessed for pain, we've assessed the body. Yes, there's something about this horse that requires like careful conditioning and and with maintenance he does. It's like he does come around. And I'm remembering back too, to like, when I was working with him as a five-year-old this was not a horse that really showed a lot of, like, he didn't buck much with me. He was very forward, a little bit more flighty. Mm-hmm. But he wasn't explosive. When we did our initial saddling if you got him moving forward, he was fine. And then I know I put the first few rides on him and got on his back. Well, no, maybe someone else had been on him. Yeah, other people had been on him. One other, one other person had, yeah, him. And that was the woman I bought him from who was a young, right. Very young girl. Like maybe 17 or 18. And what she had told me is that he had bolted Yes. And that, and that story kind of like matches, like my experience of working with them is that I was more, he was more of a flighty horse than a Bucky horse. And then, but I do remember like he definitely as a tight backed horse, and so when he gets nervous, he is prone to bracing. Mm-hmm. His body. And Yeah. Okay. So there's some context there. So some of the things that I remember you talking about in your podcast was that he started bucking when you were going down a hill. Mm-hmm. And so, in my mind, if I think about like, the things that I know that might cause that, I'm just wondering like. One, did the saddle slide forward and maybe pinch him or touch him in a way that he had never experienced before. And then maybe there was pressure on his body from the saddle and the rider. That was a new experience for him. Mm-hmm. And in that new experience, did he just panic? Mm-hmm. Then the other thing might be if, and I haven't seen him recently, I don't know what his condition's like right now, but given his history of being a little weak in the hind end, going down a hill is gonna require him to engage his hind end deeper than on the flat or even uphill. Mm-hmm. And so. Is it possible that maybe like biomechanically, his body was being taxed in a way that he just didn't feel confident in? Yeah. And, and then also like his lack of confidence maybe then turned into a panic moment. So those are like, if we're thinking about like sympathetic nervous system response answers to why horses, buck. Like those are the two things I can think of. Both of those things make perfect sense and could be either or both of them very, very easily. Yeah. Yeah. Especially the saddle thing because during the bucking the pad came off. Yeah. He might be the kind of horse then that could benefit from a rear cinch. Mm-hmm. Just to help the saddle stay in place so that, because what happens is that like when we're going down a hill, like the horse is tipped, if the saddle is tipping off the horse's back and the back of the saddle's lifting, going down the hill. Mm-hmm. That's gonna twist the tree. And then you're gonna get a lot of pressure on the weathers and the shoulders. And a rear cinch would keep the back of the file from lifting up. Yeah. And we didn't, so we made some tack. We made some definite tack errors, you know, and I would, yeah. And not having the bit in was one. And she had noticed that the pad, we had that pad that you had found. For me it's, it's like a synthetic leather on the top with the air holes in it. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, it was like the Caval kind bin. Yeah, Uhhuh. And it was the first time we'd used that and she'd said, oh, I think it's a little big, but we didn't switch it out for the one we'd used before, which was like maybe, yeah. Like too long for his back. I don't know what her, she said it feel, it seems too big, and she didn't say too long, she said too big. And so like I. I, I don't know what that meant. Well he is kind of a petite horse, like, but he filled out into fitting the saddle. Right. But he is, yeah, like a short He does, he has a short back. He definitely kind of back and he has a lighter frame. Yeah, true. I mean, sissy is both a, I mean, she's not a way to frame, but she's a short back too, right, right. That we had used the pad and the saddle for. But you know, so there were some like. Like to check all the boxes of the tack and we had not put the breast collar and the rear cinch on as we had before. Yeah, and I'm wondering too, like if it could be too that going, because I've had this happen too, where like a saddle pad will slip out the back of a saddle and that's a sign that the saddle's not fitting as well as you want it to. I'm not saying the saddle doesn't fit, but going down the hill, the fit changed. Yes. And, and when that saddle pad starts to scoot down their back and then go over the top of their loins, like it does, kind of like goose them a little bit sometimes if they haven't had that happen. And so it might be that just going down the hill, the saddle, the pads started slipping. The fit started changing, things started moving around and he was just like, ah, I can't handle it. Yeah, I yeah, I I think that's very likely what happened. And I, so I guess another question I have, I mean, you have some talking points in an order, and I'm sure you'll get to it, but where to now, like, what do I do now? Yeah. Well, okay, well let's talk about. This is where I wanna like, bring in the element of play. Okay. And talk about my evolving training philosophy and then and how I'm growing my ability to articulate these ideas and translate them across fields. And so let me back up and just share a little bit about what my therapeutic philosophy is. Especially when I'm working with children, so I come from the sand play tradition is very, very feminine It. It's very feminine in its approach to things. And I also have a lot of training in the humanistic play therapy modality called Child-Centered Play Therapy. And Child-Centered Play Therapy was developed by a woman named. Virginia Axel, and she was a colleague and a student of Carl Rogers. And a lot of people know Carl Rogers. He is like the founder of the humanistic Person Centered School of Psychology and Therapy. And, and the person centered humanistic philosophy is this idea that like in a therapeutic relationship, yes I am. I have training, I have a degree, but I'm not the expert in the room. The client's, the expert in the room. And, and that's kind of turning upside down and turning on the head. Like the typical attitude that people have when they go into the therapy process. Like a lot of people show up for therapy saying, I'm gonna go see this therapist, they're the doctor, they're gonna fix me. And they submit to the therapist and I'm here to say, no, no, no. I'm here to submit to you. I'm here to maybe help you find the answers within yourself, because I believe they're already inside you. You just don't know it yet, or you haven't found them, but I'll help you look. So that's like the hu that's the person centered, like in a, in a nutshell. There's, you know, there's more to it than that. So the child centered therapy model is that philosophy applied to children? There's Gary Landreth. From, he is still alive. He's in his nineties now and he's still, he's mostly retired from teaching, but he pops up every once in a while and still does workshops. He's the one that kind of developed this into an evidence-based model. And now, so Child-Centered Play Therapy is a therapy model that is now an evidence-based practice for treating children with trauma. And so we're back to the conversation about insurance and things like that. It's, it checks all the boxes, and so I can practice that. But my job in that model, and this, this is also a philosophy that shows up in the union, analytical and sand play world, is my job in that model is to simply show up as a present person. And hold what we call a free and protected space for the client. So my job is just to show up and to maintain the integrity of the space and do as much as I can to create a permissive environment for my client to self-express. Yeah. Now, if we think about classical dressage. As a practice of zero force, my job is to show up in that horse's life. Mm-hmm. And help them self express and take away the barriers and open doors. And allow. And allow and allow. And so what that means is that when I work with horses, I have to be in a state of mind where. I am ready and able to hold anything that horse wants to do, and this is where play comes in. So if we think of an adult horse or a horse that we're riding and we think about a horse that bolts or bucks or is doing this big behaviors we don't like it and our impulse is often to shut it down. Right. So I, I'm getting this visual of a perfect example, I think of what you're talking about. And it is that day that we were at your place and you were writing Stormy. Was it? Was it Billy? I think it was Billy. Yeah. You were the chest nightmare. Yeah, the chest nightmare. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and you were, you were explaining to me how she got triggered with the bit and you were Western bit that was different. And so when she got triggered. A former racehorse, you just let her run and I was able to film it. I don't know where the film is at somewhere. I think I have it. Copy somewhere. I think you sent me one. Yeah. And then at the end you said, and I'm gonna stay on. And I remember all her veins were sticking out when you finally came back and you said, I'm gonna stay on her until we both co-regulate and then I'm gonna give her the biggest reward and get off. Yes. So yeah, that's kind of what you're talking about, isn't it? Yes. I have to be ready to stay with it. Yeah. I have to be ready to be with the horse no matter what. And, and so here, here's like, something that I think might make sense to listeners is like, I would, I think most of the people listening to this podcast would never stop a, a fo from playing. Right. I, I wanna make a point in that example,'cause I didn't explain it really well. Is that okay? Okay. Yeah. Going back to Billy, back to Billy. What? Yeah. What you did When she got triggered, she wanted to run. And you, you just being the excellent rider you are had no problem staying on and letting her ride out a quarter mile. Like she did huge circles in your pasture and she must have covered about a quarter mile before you came back and stopped. But not only did I let her run, I said, you wanna run? Let's go. Mm-hmm. I said, you wanna run? Let's go. I'm running with you. And, and this like, I think is what the wisdom of running a horse in the round pen is. It's not, I'm not chasing the horse around until it's exhausted. I'm saying I'm following and I'm saying, okay, you wanna run, I'm gonna run with you. I'm gonna, you know, you're running big circles on the outside. I'm walking little circles on the inside, but I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. No matter what you think, no matter what you feel, no matter what you do, I'm with you. And that right there is the therapeutic principle that Carl Rogers brought forward of unconditional positive regard, where I say I have positive regard for you as a being no matter what you do. No matter what you say, no matter what you feel, no matter what you do, I'm with you. Right, and that's what you told me. There was a moment in Charlie's training where he was so anxious in the ring and you said, did you see that? He just figured out that we could stay heart to heart connected while he's in a balanced rhythmic trot. Yes. I remember those moments. Yeah. And so that's, and it took a few days. It did, you know, it took hours. It took him time to learn that I was gonna be a consistent enough presence in his life to be with him no matter what. I remember, I remember you saying, did you see that moment? And I did. It was clear. And that's exactly what you're talking about, right? Right. These are both examples of what you're saying. And so this is where like I have the skill as a rider to get on a horse and know that I can ride through the buck. Mm-hmm. You know? And so I can, because I have the experience in my body of knowing what that energy is like, I can stay regulated in the intensity. Right. And, and this is where I think the word regulated gets misinterpreted because we think that regulated means calm. Mm-hmm. But that's not true. Regulated does not mean calm. What does it mean? It means that we're in our parasympathetic nervous system. Most people access the parasympathetic through calm, low energy states, and this is where play comes in. So play, mm-hmm. Is a parasympathetic nervous system state, but it includes the entire range of human experience and it's the place that we practice the things we need to survive. So when a little full. Is ripping around the pasture as fast as it can and it's kicking its heels up and it's going and going and going and it's playing and it's, you know, that is not a sympathetic nervous system response. That's a parasympathetic nervous of a system state with intensity. Hmm. This is where things become relational. So I'm gonna use examples from the therapeutic process in a playroom. So when I'm with children who've experienced trauma. Go ahead. May offer, may I offer something? Because as you're saying that I'm trying to, I'm searching my childhood for a memory. Yeah, that fits that. And what I'm coming up with is the memory of the edge. When as, as an only child, when there was play and, and I did have some trauma that came out of play. Yeah. There was always this edge where it got uncomfortable. And then as a mother with my own children, as things would escalate in play, there'd be a place where I started to get really uncomfortable. And I think that's the switch. Like what I was experiencing was going from parasympathetic. To sympathetic. Yes. And, and really feeling that edge, like as a highly sensitive, autistic only child. Yes. Like I can re, I can remember those moments. And so that's, that's what you're speaking to? Yes. Okay. So, okay. So maybe I'll take that. You gave an example before I gave one, so, we'll, we'll build on that. So back to like, let's say going back to the training sessions I had with Charlie in the round pen with him before I got on him, we played with Intensity a lot. I. And, and we use the idea of like turning up the volume. Turning down the volume. And if we think about, like people sometimes talk about our window of tolerance. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Play is all of the behaviors that we can tolerate in the high highs and the low lows and everything in between. That is inside our window of tolerance. Okay. When I step into relationship and we're co-regulating, my window of tolerance is often bigger than the horses. Mm-hmm. Window of tolerance. Can they borrow some of that? Do they borrow? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And that's how we grow it, and that's how it naturally grows in relationship between people too. So when I'm in the therapy room with the child, my job is just to have a bigger window of tolerance than they do while they explore. All of these different states of being, and sometimes that looks like quietly coloring together. Sometimes that looks like pulling out the play swords and having a sword fight or a pillow fight. And so everything is allowed in play. Everything is possible. Everything is permissible. Wow. And I, that's an incredible, that's an incredible parenting thing for people to know and to realize as well as horse trainers. Yeah. Yeah. And so much of our training methods is about restricting and controlling and shutting down behavior. And I do think that's maybe the difference between the performance world, like the pleasure world, things like that, where the horses, like, again, we're going back to the history of things where horses had to look a certain way in order to win the ribbon and earn the check. Mm-hmm. And so they became very boxed in and restricted and, and that's different than. Some of the other schools where like, it's okay if the horse makes mistakes and the horse moves its body out of rhythm, or maybe has like a big Bucky canner step or something like that. Because they have to do all of it in order to find it. And then we find ways that we can do it together. A lot of layers, a lot of knowledge, a lot of being present and knowing what you're seeing and what you're working with and where to go with it. So yeah, so this is to say that like let's say hypothetically I was the person on Charlie's back mm-hmm. When he got Bucky. Mm-hmm. And like assuming that there's not a tach mill function and I can stay on him, like, I'm gonna go to my skills. I'm gonna set some limits to maintain safety and the integrity of the relationship. And that limit might be doing a one rain stop. Mm-hmm. And say, okay, keep your feet on the ground right now while we WEConnect and stay connected to one another. And, and I might, you know, we can set limits with other aids too. Like, I'm gonna put some pressure on his, you know, with, with a leg. I'm gonna maybe use my body and my weight to counterbalance and, and ride it out. Then the moment that it chaos stops, we're gonna get back to work so that we can find the play again. And I'm going to do what I have to do. To test, okay, what is your window of tolerance right now and what, what are the things that we can do in the vocabulary of all the things that we already know how to do together that create connection? And that might be turning bending laterally, that might be trotting him down the trail. It might be, you know, whatever. Whatever it is I'm gonna take whatever energy he's giving me and we're gonna work with it. We're gonna just stay connected, stay connected, stay connected, and I'm gonna do whatever I can do to match his energy because there's something energetically about the reason why I need to be able to match his energy is that that is my way of non-verbally communicating to another nervous system. Mm-hmm. That I'm with you. So there's something that happens in horse training that is kind of like that, but I think it's something. I think that's why it works, but I don't think the way it's often executed and the philosophy behind it, like that's probably why it works. But I don't know that the philosophy behind it is that great. And that's where in order to control a horse, like in the round pen mm-hmm. A trainer becomes bigger than the horse, almost in a scary way and then brings them down. But that's different than what you're talking about, right? Because play. Play is keeping the horse inside their threshold, you know, so, so we're, we're not flooding. We're still inside the threshold, but it still allows for big energy when, when we need big. And it also allows for really quiet, calm energy, the whole spectrum. That's good to know. I did not realize, I did not realize this about play. I think it's really, really important. So. At this point, it doesn't seem like it's gonna hurt Charlie necessarily to wait a little while to see what hap I haven't put a Saddleback on him. Right. What do you think about that? I think that you do things at the pace, you do them and you have other ways of connecting with him, and he's still your horse. Yeah, no, the next day he really let me know, like, I'm still with you, you know? Yeah. Right. I still trust you. Yeah. Right. And lots of times they do. The moment, the moment the moment is over, they're back to connecting. Yeah. Very much connecting. Okay. So I had an animal communicator. Yeah. Check in with Charlie. Yeah. Okay. And he said, he said a couple things that are, that are pretty interesting to me. Okay. Do you remember some things that you used to say when you first were training him? No, I, I'm not. It's, it's been a few years. Okay. Okay. So this is what I remembered. Maybe if I say it, it'll jog your memory that you were, you would say to him or to me about him. He has a very young brain. Oh yes, he did. Like, he was five, but he felt more like working with the three-year-old. So he kept saying that to the animal communicator. I have a very young brain. He's embraced that. And finally, finally, she said, actually, you're nine years old. You're a mature horse. And, and had a conversation with him about you're, you have permission to grow up now. I love it. Oh my gosh. And she kept saying, I feel like he's five years old. And I said, well, that's how old he was when Carissa was working with him. Oh, interesting. Oh my gosh. Isn't, isn't that fascinating? So you'll have to watch, I haven't published it yet, but I think you'll get a kick out of outta seeing the things that he had to say and he kept saying Too much, too fast. I need breaks. Yes. And I remember you used to give him some good break, big breaks. He needs a lot of soaking time. Yeah. Yeah. Like yeah. He needs a lot of time to integrate and process. He talked about that too. So just it's, it's just kind of thrilling, you know? I mean, when you get, get the human words, I mean, they communicate a lot and we understand them, but it's just, there's something charming about getting, like the English language translated from them. Right. It just validates what we know happened. So yeah. That was Oh, that is so sweet. I, I see he still does, he does have like a really youthful spirit about him still just in the photographs that I've seen of him recently and things like, it's still very much there. Yeah. And yeah, he's a sweetie. Mm-hmm. He's a real sweetie. So what do you think about what I was saying about like having that memory chain open with this. Idea thing happening of, Ooh, that was, it was really heavy for me, but I wasn't the one riding him either. But, but from my perspective, I'm having the same thing happen in, in so many, like, so many parallels of, well, I said this, I said this and I said this. I don't know. I mean, in the other situation, I really didn't know what else to do. Yeah. In this situation, I could have spoken up. I could have taken charge more, but I chose to be in a place where I've said what I need to say, and this is, yeah, this is not, this is this is outside of my lane. Yeah. And so back to like the me Yeah. I mean, you're gonna bring that energy into whatever the field like, and they're gonna pick up on it. So, and, and, because. Horses don't really filter. Like whatever is going on is going on. Mm-hmm. It, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, all of us are doing that all the time, which adds a completely different layer that I think most people aren't aware of. I could use some language from the psychology world. In my supervision process I gave, I talked about this a little bit in the other podcast, so I employ. A lot of what we call parallel process in the, in my supervision practice, and it's working with ideas of transference and counter transference, and people might know what that is a little bit from the psychology world. So transference is when, okay, transference is the energy that the client brings into the room. And so transference is the, like the unconscious stuff that then gets projected onto the therapist. And so like the classic example would be like, oh, a client comes in and they're mad at me because they're really mad at their mother, you know? So that's the transference. The counter transference is then my emotional response that I might unconsciously or inadvertently put back onto the client. And so for me, that might be something like, I have a client that is chronically late and I'm starting to get a little irritated because I feel disrespected. Mm-hmm. But it's not about the client, it's, it's about what, what's ever going on in my personal relationships. Mm-hmm. So here we are now in the Yian School. We talk about a third process. So the Freudian School talks about transference, county transference. The Yian School talks about a third thing called the co transference. And the co transference is when we come together in relationship and the clients or the horse. Because Charlie had his experience, right? Mm-hmm. Too much too soon. Mm-hmm. Too much too soon. And this mis like this idea. I've got a young brain. No, you don't. You're nine. But he is still working with the energy of being young. Mm-hmm. Okay. So he brings that into the relationship. You bring your stuff into the relationship, and then the co transfer is the alchemy. That happens when those energies come together and whatever the trainer brought. Right? Exactly. Right, right. So parallel process is then assuming that like whatever energies are going on are gonna somehow be reflected in whatever meeting or, or like whatever encounter we have. Hmm. And, and I can see this in my supervisees. So like if they're talking about a client, they're gonna take on the energy of that client when they talk about that client. And I can in, in the course of one supervision hour, they might talk about three different clients and there'll be three different energies in the room. How many people do you think are. I mean, I guess we're all responding to those energies all the time, but it's whether we're doing it consciously or not. Right. Right. What, do you have any idea, like what percentage of the population is able to be conscious about that stuff? I have absolutely no idea. I, I think that we all are capable of being conscious and unconscious. Like I have moments of consciousness and I have moments of unconsciousness. Yeah. I guess all of this too. Yeah. Wow. Lots of interesting points there. Yeah. About getting off the horse. Like a lot of times what I was talking about is, part of the story is the times that I got on him twice. Yeah. After he came back from her place and before she came back and rode him again. Mm-hmm. Where he took me under the, he was about to take me under a tree and he wasn't responding to the b. Or my leg. Mm-hmm. And so I just jumped off. Yeah. And, and even with Cyps e when she was refusing, after I turned several times and we were really having a heated discussion about if we were gonna, you know, go around this gate. And finally I just, I mean, there was a trail enough around the gate mm-hmm. And I finally just got off and walked her. Yeah. And a lot of people say. You're teaching the horse that you're giving them a release when they don't wanna do what you're asking them to do. What do you have to say about that? I think, let's go back. Okay. Yeah, because I can see how you might ask about that, we talked about how with Billy, that horse who wanted to run and run, like when she finally. Came back down and deescalated and we were co-regulating again. Then I got off, I took the saddle off, but that was not to release pressure, that was to create a new relational experience. This horse was dripping sweat. Mm-hmm. So I took the saddle off when I brushed her down. Mm-hmm. And I took care of her and I continued the connection. And I tend to her body, and this is where like in the high performance world, like you stay with the horse until their respiratory rates down and their temperature's down. And you tend to them and tend to them and tend to them, and you don't leave them. What about people when they're having PTSD episodes, right. Same. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cancel my next client and I'm gonna stay with that client until they're regulated. And there's an art to kind of timing and facilitating a therapy session to make sure that the client is regulated by the time they walk out your door at the end of the hour. But I have canceled clients so that I can be with the person that needs it most. And not abandon them. I am sure they really appreciate that. Like that, that I wish more people did that. I don't know if it's a standard practice, it matters, but yeah, it matters. It's, it's not, not standard practice. I don't like different people have different perspectives on things, but mm-hmm. When you start getting into trauma specialties, yes. That's best practice. But you've also told me I'm jumping around a little bit, but I'm going back to getting off the horse. You've also told me many times over the phone it's okay to get off. Like if that's what you need to do. Right. Because what I'm hearing though is in those moments, yeah, you got off to, for some self preservation or to deescalate a fight, and, but I'm not hearing that you just like walked away from your horse and threw'em in a stall and stormed off all mad at them. No, you stayed. Yeah, you stayed with them. Right. So from the horse's perspective, you're still connected. So it's not teaching If somebody. If somebody gets off during a period where they're trying to teach their horse something and the lesson isn't going well, especially if you don't end there, it's not a bad practice. Right, right. I think that's important for people to know that, because I think that there's still some old myths about, you know, what's okay to do and what's not okay to do. And the more neuroscience and the more relationship that we understand what, what we're forming, what we're doing with horses, that some of those myths really need to shift. Yeah. And. And this is again, like there some of the myths that we have, some of the practices that we have in the horse world started out with good intentions. Mm-hmm. And then got turned into something else. And, and back to the idea of like making a horse run in the round pen. So. Chasing a horse around a round pen until it submits is, I don't think that's how it started. I, I don't think that's how the practice started. That's not what was taught to me. No. I mean, I, I actually went to see Monty Roberts was there, it was his apprentices that were doing the training. Yeah, yeah. But I, I saw it live when I first, first got a horse and I. It wasn't so much chasing, it was a balanced grounded way in the middle, and not like I've seen some people do, but you know, when you're new to all of that, the subtleties can easily escape you. Right? And if you don't have. This is again, like the, this is where having the benefit of having a teacher and a mentor supervise your work mm-hmm. Is important because the, the mentor, Mon Roberts was then able to step in and help his, correct, his apprentices from chasing the horse down. But then what, you know, he published a book and people read it, and then they applied the method without supervision. I mean, I have a video of myself chasing Firefly, having no idea what I'm doing. Way too big, and she's working so fast, I'm sure. She's like, what are you doing? That was one of the things that I first like stepped in and and corrected when we first started working together. I'm like, why are you chasing your horse? You're scaring your horse. Like, why are you trying to scare your horse and you are humble enough to listen and that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate all your input and yeah. Taking the time to do another podcast. I love it when we get to talk with you. Well, thanks for having me on. I'm curious to see who else responds to your invite to talk about this and hear other people's take on, yeah, on what happened this is a great series. It's been really good to learn from the experience to think about it. And, you know, I'm so sorry that she got hurt. I really am yeah. She seems pretty humble about it though, and, and pretty grounded in okay. Thanks Carissa. You have a good night. Thank you. Bye bye.