Solomon Singer

The bareback riding club on Sundays mentioned in this podcast has been delayed.  Please email Solomon below to check before heading out!

This incredable bareback and briddleless rider understands horseship like few others.  His intuition led him to where he is today.  As Equine director of "The GOOD SHEPARD FOUNDATION" he is in a postition to make a difference in the lives of many people and horses. 

He's also become an expert on laminitis and hooves that are disfigured or special cases and a horse psychologist.

This is the type of education services I've talked and wished about for a while.  So it was to my surprise and delight to find out about Soloman has been doing right here in my backyard, as we catch up after many years.

Now I'm wanting to get involved in this worth while cause, as well.  I Hope you check out the web page and give Soloman a  shout out, if you need his speciality farirer services.

Solomonsinger@gmail.com

https://www.facebook.com/share/1BCQhCozSe/?mibextid=wwXIfr

://www.adoptdont.shop/o/65394/good-shepherd-foundation

Transcript

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Hi everyone. My name is Solomon Singer and I'm the equine director for the Good Shepherd Foundation and a horse psychologist. That's what I like to call myself because as a trainer there's many different training styles, but as a horse psychologist, it really hones in on specifically what I do with horses that analyzes their personality and understands their behaviors and sort of tries making that communication clear with humans. So that is sort of the focus. Of what I do with, with horses and I'd love to talk with you more about that today. Yeah, no, that's great. And I'm, is she Abel with the Horse Human Connection Matrix. So happy to finally have Solomon on the show because I've been asking him for a couple of years. So what is the name of the organization again? So it's the Good Shepherd Foundation. It's a nonprofit animal humane education and rescue organization that I've been part of. And it's based here in Eugene area. Mm-hmm. We have some rescue animals and we do a lot of humane outreach and education as well as assisting horse owners with awareness of, you know, issues and helping horses with hoof care. So it's a, it's a nice, animal rescue nonprofit that I work with. And so I'm the equine director for that. And I work with the equine side of everything as well as other things. That's my focus. With all of the, the different areas that I help with the, I just feel like the horses need our help. The most they do. I know a lot of dogs and cats get a lot of support and they're absolutely necessary to be, cared for. And, people need to be educated about them too. But the horses are actually classified as livestock. And so as livestock there's a lot of leeway and when it comes to care and quality of training and all that kind of stuff, and nobody really thinks about them since they're from the livestock perspective. I don't like to say people should treat their horses like pets. But they should in a way that I'd like to describe to you today. And maybe I should just start with a little bit of background of my experience with horses, because I remember I, I chatted with you about that and it's a, it's an interesting story of how I started, so really, I mean, it started when I was about 11 years old and I was at the feed store with my parents getting, you know, grained for the other animals we had. And I saw a poster on the wall for a horse that was in pretty bad shape. And for some strange reason, I just decided I want a horse now. And so at that point I did the research and tried finding, you know how to get this horse down here and stuff. And, and unfortunately it was a, it was a situation where I didn't really know. That much about horses. My whole family really didn't know much about horses, and so we were the subject of somewhat of a scam in a way where the people said that, oh, this marere, after I, I went and looked at her, she, she was blind in one eye and skin and bones and like, was abused obviously in the past, but she was just really bad shape. And anyway, I wanted to get her as a, as a rescue. But in the process of purchasing her, the owner said. She's in love with this other horse, this stallion. He's a real sweetie and I wanna sell him. I'll give him a really good deal to you so you can buy him too. And we, we didn't know any better. So unfortunately, so an 11-year-old with a stallion? Well, so the, the situation was they said that he was really sweet, but it turns out he wasn't. So I came into the realization that these horses were amazing and, and awesome, but also scary. And so I sort of had an intuitive. Interaction with them initially. And it just, the, the mare was great. She was really sweet, you know, on her way to recovery. Never a mean bone in her body, but the stallion was becoming protective of her and was starting to attack me and like, have issues with that. I, I even got a couple muscles that were damaged, you know, biting me and like lifting me up, you know, crazy stuff a stallion can do. Never knew about that. So at a certain point we decided to send the stallion to a trainer who specialized in stallions. Well, that was my mistake. I should have known better. She, you know, got the horse for a couple months. He came back, he was gelded and, you know, I, that was part of the process. He was gelded and then he came back. But unfortunately, the way she trained him was with. Hunger and control of starvation. So he was super thin, he was abused. They tied him up with, you know, trucks and drove him around to train him how to lead, like, just crazy stuff. And unfortunately this is in Hawaii by the way. So in Hawaii there's the olos. And that's the name of Cowboys in Hawaii. And unfortunately they have very crude methods. Traditionally, I think it might be changing now a little bit with some awareness of natural horsemanship, but in general, olos are really, really rough. And she was basically that. So that was my first exposure to rough and tough cowboy training. And it was shocking to me to see that. And I felt terrible for the horse. And when he came back after the training, he was trained, but he was mentally ill. Mm-hmm. And so I took it upon myself to, at that point, learn how to do training that's not like that. And so it was sort of a reaction and sort of a gut emotional desire to learn how to work with horses in a way that was not that. And that's what started me off on my entire journey. And so at that point, I started realizing that there's, specific methods. There's natural horsemen. I never knew about any of this stuff, right. I was never told about that. I was lucky enough to know someone named Betty and she was my early mentor with traditional horsemanship, and she taught me dressage and western and roping and, you know, a variety of, of a couple different things that, you know, were the usual horse stuff. And I was sort of apprenticing with her in my youth There. And I learned natural horsemanship and I learned about Pat Pelli and I went through his whole course, you know, self-taught course that he sells, and learned about the natural horsemanship rope halters hack a horse instead of bits and the alternative of bareback pads instead of saddles. And that was my first exposure. But the interesting part about that was when I was in the initial stages of getting those horses, nobody really gave me any direct instruction. So my exposure and experience with the horses was very intuitive. I sort of just. You know, I worked with the horse. I petted her I brushed her a bunch and she liked me, so she let me jump on her. It was a very natural kind of thing, you know, I didn't know if she was trained to ride or not. I didn't know that I was a thing. But the horse was just liked me, right? And so I put turns out I didn't really have a halter initially. So I just put a, a vine from a tree, a strong vine around her neck and went for a ride. And it was a very intuitive type of thing. And it worked great. It was amazing how that works. My initial exposure was very intuitive, but then I got the traditional training afterwards and kind of combined the two. And so really after that I started really diving really deep into like studying horses and herd dynamics and how they think and working about WildHorse behaviors because of course, if you look at them in the wild, that's one of the best ways of seeing their natural instincts. And then also the, the difference is. Abnormal equine psychology. And so when a horse is abused, they're not a wild, intuitive animal anymore. They have problems that, that, you know, has been developed as an attitude, behavior. I mean, you see some horses that are in a stall, which is by the way, terrible for horses to live in a stall. They start cribbing, they start doing all these weird, gasping things while biting on the wood, you know, all that kind of weird stuff because they're mentally ill. I mean, it's just, there's a lot of like abnormal psychology with horses too, unfortunately. So it sounds, it sounds like a whole lot of what you're saying is what we know now, like the neuroscience and all, and a lot of the research completely backs this up, and horses being able to build on horse behaviors that are observed in the wild and not just. The dominance part of it, because there's so many other interactions that happen besides the dominance in the wild between and amongst the horses, and those I think are really more important than they're just now coming to the surface as being really important instead of focused on absolute dominance because absolute dominance seems to. Inevitably lead to some form of abuse in this abnormal state that you're talking about. So how many horses do you think you're describing when we talk about like traditional methods and gaming and all kinds of things, like there are a lot of unhealthy horses out there, it sounds like. Yes. Now we are extremely lucky that horses are forgiving. Yeah. All horse owners at some point or another would be much more badly damaged physically and emotionally if horses didn't put up with the stuff that we give them. So we're it's a really incredible animal to be so forgiving. However, one important thing to remember is. And a lot of people know this is they never forget. Mm-hmm. So if they've had anything that's happened, good, they'll never forget it. If they have anything, you know, that's happened to them, that's bad. They will never forget that either, and they'll learn from it because that's an instinctive behavior the biggest problems that come out of. Horses. I mean, if you ask any horse owner and you ask them, are you abusing your horse? They'd say, absolutely not. Right. Unfortunately sometimes a little resistant to changing their ways because they don't understand a horse. And I think that's really where it comes from. The root cause of the problem is people don't understand the horse. It's a mystery. And there's a bunch of trainers that preach their method and you know, they're totally contradicting some other trainer. And, you know, because the horse is absolutely incredibly able to detect small cues and they, you know, it's an instinctive behavior to try to, you know, pair a cue with something. You can train a horse to do a right-handed circle if you click twice, but if you click once on a clicker, they'll go a left-hand circle. I mean, it's crazy the kind of stuff you can train them, but Right. Is that. Healthy way of training them and just because they do it, what's their motivation? Why are they doing it? Is it because of fear? Is it because of hunger? Is it because of you are gonna punish them and whip them? If they don't, is it because you're gonna spur them? If they don't, is it because you're gonna whack them with a little dressage whip if they don't step in line just right. I mean, the kind of stuff that happens if you actually analyze it from the perspective. And this is, this is my unique, unique way of thinking about, okay, so hopefully this helps. What is a horse? What kind of animal really are they? I mean, a lot of people will have an opinion and a lot of people will have a different opinion and you know, it's basically your perception of what the animal is. But I think a really interesting way of thinking about it is to anthropomorphize them. You want to put them as if they were a human. Mm-hmm. Okay. And, and the reason for that is because. What are horses? They're prey. We all know that. Okay, so they're not out to get you. They don't have that like predator mentality like humans do. So we're a predator prey interacting. We have to make sure that our predator nature doesn't like set off the prey to run. Okay. That's one thing. Fast reaction speed. Horses are so fast, they can far exceed human reaction speed. And that's an instinctive trait, it's defense is to run. Or kick or bite kind of. But they don't really do that with predators as much and they seem to try to stamp'em out or run away. That's their two, they're two big things. So their reaction speed with their legs is something that we have to be aware of as human. Mm-hmm. Another thing is evolution has really given them a lot of survival traits like running fast, galloping, rearing up, having wolf teeth. There are a couple things that have, you know, a sort of instinctive trait that benefits them over time. So, you know, let's think about those two. Eventually. They also never forget, they're 100% like incredible memory. They can memorize every single little leaf and every single little twig in their entire pasture. Oh, they do. Yeah. They, they enjoy that. I mean, it's incredible their type of spatial awareness, especially if they migrate 40 miles a day, they will remember that whole track. So they have a really amazing spatial awareness and we should use that to our benefit. Another thing is they love affection. They're an extremely affectionate animal, especially if you show them ways that. They can trust you, and then you're part of the herd, and then they're extremely affectionate with you, right? But if you're not in part of the herd, they're not affectionate with you yet that's a, that's a cue of when you've become part of the herd. Another thing is they're extremely jealous. And I, a lot of people really don't know how to work with like a herd. From the perspective of like, who gets fed first, who gets the attention first? Who gets ridden first? Is there fairness of how often you ride this horse versus that horse? If you ride a horse in your. Herd more often than other horses. They'll know that that's the boss horse and then they'll resent it. And a lot of times there's some internal strife that can happen inside herds because the human is paying too much attention to one versus another, or is unaware of that interaction. And if you're, you know, petting the least dominant horse, the most dominant horse is gonna come over and beat'em up when you're gone. If you feed in the wrong order, they'll have to rearrange the order, right? If you free feed them. And that's another important thing too, is, is a lot of people tie up their horses to feed, which is fine, you know, if you have to. But I would highly, highly recommend the, the most interesting and. Informative way of working with your horses is without tack. And the reason why is they've learned very early on as a baby horse that they must obey tack. And that's a good thing. We need to be able to control them, but to really let their emotions and personality and their desires be known to the human. They need to be able to show you what they want, which means if you free feed, which means you just feed them and sort of walk onto the next horse, you feed them, you walk onto the next horse, you're not restraining them from each other. And you're also not trying to initially interact with them only with a halter. Another problem a lot of people have is they never work with their horses with how to halter or a bit or some other type of tack. And so the horse always is controlled by that tack and never is able to really give you. Their opinion of something, and I think that right there is. The difference between equine assisted practices and how we've learned so much more about horses and how they show up so differently from any traditional riding method. Mm-hmm. Was suddenly people all over are interacting with horses in an enclosure, but without any attack. Giving'em the freedom to come and to go, to go to the gate to leave maybe? Yes. If they're, you know, and that's when they show up, that's when we really get to know them. And I think that it's so many equine assisted people being trained. Equine assisted practices, and not necessarily the practices themselves, but approaching the horse in that way that has created relationships and knowledge that is now tipping into the training world. And so what you just said is really important. Yeah, I've been talking about that for a while. Good. Yeah. Oh, this is, yeah. And a lot of people feel that, you know, it's too dangerous to be around a horse without being fully controlled or, I mean, okay. Don't own a horse then if you think that. Right. Like so I, I think, that's great that this is an awareness that's coming up because when you work with horses let's think about them as a human for a minute. Let's think about them for, in fact, as your best friend. Okay? That's a really good way to sort of think about them because they should be your best friend. If you don't wanna think about them as your best friend. Again, try to rethink maybe even having a horse. But if you are thinking of them, anthropomorphizing them into a human and thinking of them that way. Let's, let's think about, let's analyze a couple like common horse problems from that standpoint. So if, if it's your best friend. Would you wanna motivate them by fear? Would you wanna motivate them by pain with Spurs or whips? Maybe not. Okay. Oh wow. Now the best friend idea now suddenly just is so clear. Right? It's so clear what fairness is, and that's a huge thing with horses. Fairness. Fairness goes so far with any species, but including humans, right? But, mm-hmm. Fairness and honesty, right? A horse trainer comes up, whips him for one thing one time, and next time he's more calm the next day doesn't whip him for the same thing. Okay, now he's lying. All right. Like what? It is totally useless. Completely use, completely incongruent. Now it's abuse. Okay? Now it's just random abuse. You're trying to a aggressively tell your horse to do certain things. They're starting to get scared of you because they're prey. You're attacking them, and you just permanently made an enemy out of them, okay? And then it's really hard to, you can come back from that, but it takes a long time. Like once they know who you are. Okay. Let's say your best friend like takes a whip and wax you in the back with it, and you're like, and you know, okay, that's physical abuse from your best friend. Are they your best friend anymore? Probably not. Not. It would take a long time for you to trust them again, right? Same thing with horses. I don't know why people think it's such a mystery. You know, to treat them fairly and not hurt them. Right. And then there's, there's this idea that they're so big that you're not hurting them, that you can't hurt them. Oh, sure. That they kick the shit out of each other. So it must be fine to use a whip or this or that. Right. And, and it's not, it's not Well, so there's, there's different levels now. If a horse, now, this is where it starts getting into the abnormal psychology. Okay. So if a horse has had that experience mm-hmm. The physical sort of. Method of training is a real problem because. You need to completely reset. Like you need to completely change owners even potentially. Right. It might take that but the horse will reset, especially if it's in a new surrounding. Mm-hmm. But if they've had that exposure and they've had that experience and they start becoming reliant on it for, for like responding, like you need to whack them for them to even move. It's already abnormal psychology and really the best solution is just to like get outta that situation, change it, change the trainer, change something, change something big. You know, they need to like reset their brain because you start getting into these problems and horses will be very stubborn sometimes. And you know, if you start seeing the the need for that kind of a thing, it's way down the wrong path already. Right. So, I mean, I'm just talking from people, you know, that they're like, I need spurs for my horse. What do I do? Okay. If you need spurs for your horse to move, don't ride it anymore until you do the ground training and retrain that horse that it doesn't need spurs, because that just means you didn't do the correct ground training right? And you're relying on pain and, and so it is just kind of logical if you think about it as your friend. And it's demystifying, you know, like if you just totally 100% treat them like you would your friend out in the pasture, do they have good water? Are they happy with their food? Did they eat correctly today? Did they have their meals? Did they get brushed? Is their skin sensitive from rain rot? If it was their best, if it was your best friend, you'd treat them right away, right? You'd make sure that they're happy. Make sure that they have a blanket on. Well, a lot of people say no blankets for the winter, so they get a winter coat. I agree with that. But if it's super cold and they're suffering and they're shivering, put a blanket on'em. It's your best friend. You know what I mean? It's logical. Also, when you ride, if you ride with a natural horse hackamore, like a halter, a rope, hackamore there is no way to like cause pain to them. Whereas with a bit, would you put a metal bit in your friend's mouth and go ride around on them for a couple hours? I mean, that's pretty weird. I wouldn't do that to my best friend. You know? Why put it in their mouth? If they're be your best friend, they would wanna work with you. So actually, the way I train and the way I progress through training levels mm-hmm. Is I start with a row pack of more. That's the only thing that I ever use on my horses, and I graduate out of that to know controls. Because if they work with you well, or just a rope around their neck and you just never use it, it's just sitting there. You know, for safety, but that's where I graduate to If you're horse, I take him to the park all the time. No halter. I ride him around. I'd to just describe. Yeah, I remember, I remember being at Elijah Bristow with you that one time and Mango and you did this. Like I tell this story all the time. It was, it is like burned in my memory. You gave. A some gave her some hand signal and she laid down and you got on her. Mm-hmm. And she got up and with no aids, like completely invisible. She went from like zero to however fast she can go. I don't know what that is. Oh yeah. Like 20 miles an hour in like in seconds and screech to a halt again with no aids and no equipment at all. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. T and it was. Incredibly impressive. And I think what a lot of people will say though is, yeah, well not everybody can do that. Of course. Like, you have something special or you know, there's, and I do think that there are graduated, like you're talking about in your training, the graduated things, unfortunately, I. Training horses is actually complicated. Unless, unless you're gifted. And there are a few really gifted people that, that naturally understand the feel that naturally can see that sweet spot where they're curious, they're, they're not checked out and they're not overamped, but they're curious. Mm-hmm. And like that sweet spot, and now we know how to describe it and what it is. You know, from a neuroscientific perspective, but I think there have always been people like you and George Washington and a few others who have known that. Right. Who know that spot, you know? Well, that's a really good point that you bring up because I mean, that's, that's really, I think the, the value of thinking about them in a logical, intuitive manner. I think a lot of people really work well with other people. Right? Mm-hmm. And so if you have friends, you know how to make them happy, you know how to potentially manipulate them to go do what you need, or, I mean, I'm not saying anyone's manipulative, right? Not in a negative way, but you know, as a friend you have influence over them. You can ask them to do something for you, and they would absolutely do it if they were your friend, right? Mm-hmm. And so that seems very intuitive for people, and they're like, oh yeah, I know how to work with my friends or my coworkers, or, you know, that that kind of skill is sort of. Relatively built in our community. They think it's totally different with a horse. And it's actually not. I mean, it's actually very simple. It's very intuitive and I don't wanna make it sound simple. It's, you know, you need to understand the animal. But if you understand the animal like you do, your human friend, you can do any kind of training and you can ask the horse to do anything at any level. And if they truly like you as their true friend, which takes a long time of, you know, trust and training and consistency, and being a good friend who takes care of them. If they, if they have itch spots, scratch'em. You know what I mean? Like, be their friend and they will really, really trust you. In fact, a cool tech technique, which just reminded me is. If you ever meet a new horse, find their scratch spots. That is the number one thing because they're, they're wondering, are you gonna hurt me? If you either feed them or pet them gently or scratch their scratch spots, they've never heard of a predator doing those things. Right. So you just convinced them that you are a friend within five minutes. You, you know, you told me that years ago. You told me that years ago. And I'm flashing forward'cause I'm taking these lessons in Marcola on this on this lovely mayor named Stormy who can be a little like. She's got some stuff in her past where she'll, she'll do a few bucks if your aids are not, like, if you use the wrong aids with her. But that was the first thing I did was I went and I found her ites on her belly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And she is, she really likes me and I'm, I'm fortunate and gifted and I'd forgotten that you were the one that told me that. But yeah, it absolutely is true. It's, it's a simple thing, but it turns out you can convince them that you're not a threat, like really quickly. And some people are, are. Surprised when you see like a wild Mustang that's never been trained and a trainer comes up to them and within an hour they're riding them and doing things, and it's like, whoa, how did that happen? Right. So quick. It's because they just convinced the horse that. They're not a problem. And you know, so if you know how to talk to horse it's not a weird thing. It's just friends. It's just hanging out. It's just showing them, you know, and reading their facial expressions and, you know, seeing their body language. Are they dominant, are they not? And now this is a problem. Another abnormal psychology thing is if a horse becomes dominant on you mm-hmm. They are now asserting their dominance as the herd leader. You may be still part of the herd, right? They think of you as part of the herd, obviously, right? If you're part of them and they trust you, but they want to be the boss of you, and they're very persistent at it. And some horses are very persistent at it in a herd. In fact, some horses will actually rise through the ranks, fight everybody all the way up to the top and become the head of the herd. Which usually is a mayor, but not always. A stallion can be that too. Mm-hmm. And that dynamic nature of fighting their way to a higher place in the herd is a natural instinct for them. So you need to convince them that you're the head of the herd. And the amazing thing is that they don't forget. So if you, if you convince them once, they won't necessarily test you again. They know, they just know. Now sometimes if it's a new horse and they're used to being the head of the herd, that's an abnormal psychology in relation to humans. You need to try to reset that. Mm-hmm. And that can take some form of, a assertiveness that they understand, which is not aggression, it's not pain, it's not fear. This is, but it is domination of assertiveness. And there's a lot of amazing things you can do just with your hands, with no halter to convince a horse that you are the boss and they will willingly accept that. And the reason that how you do it, it's finger touch pressure and it's not Linda Tillington Jones type stuff with little circles, but it's finger pressure. In specific places on their shoulder. So if you can control a horse by their shoulders and their neck and their head without a halter, just with your hands. Mm-hmm. You are now the herd boss. If they accept you controlling them without a halter. Now see that's the great part. You go out there, you don't have a halter on. You go out there, you work with them in their pasture naturally with your hands. You control them, you poke them, you, you control them. You prevent them from biting you. You prevent them from pushing you over. You just are working with them. In concert with their, you know, movements, asking them to back up, to go to the side, move their leg forward, backward, really gentle stuff, just interacting with them, massaging them, scratching them while you're doing it. It's like this experience where you're now interacting with them, with your hands only, and there's no slapping unless they bite you. But you prevent them from biting you, you watch them before, right? So they're gonna try, if they're a horse that is in a dominant mode, they're gonna try to dominate you while you do that. And if they disengage and walk away, let'em. Go get'em. Bring them back, right. With a like, you know. There's ways of interacting with them. And in fact, it's best to be like in a smaller arena or a round pen or something, so they can't really get away too far. But you can use that as a cue and they'll start working with you. They'll start following you and you know, connecting up with you and you're walking around. No halter. And then you push them, you start lead lining them a virtual lead line. You know, you do round pen work with them, with nothing. They come back into the center. There's all these really cool things. And then once join. Once they join. Yeah, exactly. Soft, soft join up is I, I, I totally get what you're saying and it's amazing. How many people will get on a horse's back or, or trainers or teachers that will have people ride before they've established this relationship? There is no way, now that I know what, I know, that I would get on a horse or put a child on the horse until they've developed a relationship. Because you can't fool'em about the fear. You, the trust has to go both ways, and that's one of the great ways of building the trust. Mm-hmm. Without the equipment. In fact, it's so much faster without the equipment. Yeah. It's letting you see what they're thinking. Right. You're, you're robbing yourself of a tool when you have them on control because now they are suppressing their inner feelings. You wanna show me your inner feelings? Show me. That's what I want. I want to communicate with you, right? As a horse. Show me. And that's helpful. It's, it's easier, right? Another really important thing too, that you just brought up about writers is a lot of people try to ride as like a domination technique, but it turns out, if you think about what their instincts are telling them. A cougar or some type of predator will jump on their back and sort of grab them. Right. Sort of similar to how a rider grabs them, one with their legs. Mm-hmm. And so unfortunately, if a horse isn't ready and trusts you enough to be ridden because you didn't do the groundwork necessary or trust necessary, and you just jump on, they suddenly get a remembrance. Of that way back intuitive thing that a cougar's jumping on my back and is trying to hold on, and they will very, very, very aggressively work to get you off their back, which is what they would do. For a cougar, they would buck the cougar off. Right. It's a survival thing. Yeah. And it, and it's exactly it. It's an instinct. It's ancestral memory. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I wish more people knew. So I am really interested in the education you do. Like I've said so many times, I didn't know anything about the Good Shepherd Foundation and here you are, right up the road. Yeah. That I've said so many times, what we need is education. So, so many, like on Facebook and here and there, I hear people calling other people out about abuse. And most of these people are not, they're not trying to be mean. Mm-hmm. They just don't know. Mm-hmm. And the education is so important. Are there, are there programs that are growing? Are there ways that people who do know that can help out? How, how does all that work? Well, so, yeah. And you know, this is the most important thing is having people aware of it. And so I work at Lane Community College. Mm-hmm. And so that's my full-time position. So I haven't been doing as many like I normally do some kind of a, you know, event where people can bring their horse and I can demonstrate some things, and if they have any issues I can kind of see, you know, like a horse psychology analysis. You know, see. Mm-hmm. What's going on, what kind of interaction's going on. A lot of people are just blinded to it, right? They're like, my horse is really a challenge, but I don't really know how to fix it. And I'm like, okay, show me. Show me what they do. Right. So I've done a lot of that kind of thing. Really, really helpful. But people need to know they have a problem. A lot of people don't know they have a problem, so they won't even think to need a trainer or they won't think to need to come to a seminar or something. So the awareness I think, really needs to start with like drawing the people out to us, you and I, and other people that are aware of this. Mm-hmm. With some type of like event. And so I'm gonna be starting now. At Elijah Bristow once a week on Sunday afternoon it will be, so starting at noon on Sundays, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna put this up in the feed stores and all this kind of stuff because I've done this before. It's a bareback riding club and what's really cool about a bareback riding club is you don't have to ride bareback, but it's promoting the bareback trend. I ride bareback exclusively. The horse loves it the most. It's easiest to train. It's very clear communication. Not everyone is into bareback. Not everyone is into bareback. There's totally fine to ride a lot of other things. It's just a great way to sort of promote humane interaction with horses with a minimal amount attack. And that's a really cool thing. So I go to Elijah Bristol and bring my horse, and we'll go for a once a week ride and anyone is welcome to come. It's a free club to be part of at Elijah Bristow. And that's the kind of thing where somebody doesn't necessarily think they need to be trained or they think that they have a problem, but they'll just come and ride.'cause it's fun an event, right? Some kind of cool thing, like a trail riding course. A lot of people will be there, you know, and that's where the awareness can happen. They just are exposed to the true way of understanding their horse and making it not as much of a mystery. And that's really where. All of a sudden, they will self-correct People will self-correct. If they think that it's their best friend and they suddenly go to put their spurs on, they're like, wait, what do Spurs actually do? They cause pain. Why would I want to have pain on my horse? It's my best friend. Maybe I can train them with gentle. Consistent pressure on the ground to give into. Like I can take my horse, I can just point to her side and she moves away. You don't even have to touch her. You know, if they are aware of the communication, there's no need for Spurs that is just literally like brute force without the training necessary to get to a, a better spot. I mean, you can just tap buttercup. She is very sensitive. I tell anyone that rides her, you gotta not kick her'cause she will run. Right. She's very sensitive. She will do from a dead standstill straight into a Gallup if you ask her to. And I don't, I didn't never use spurs. I, I mean like people and then you, you do sliding rain, no rain stops, you know, loose rain stops, sliding stops. You just lean back in your seat and they know that that's stop. You don't have to yank on their mouth. And another really interesting thing that, you know, while we're talking about bits, a lot of people don't understand the origins of bits. It was started in Genghis Con times when they realized that horses needed to be controlled somehow. They had no idea of how to train this wild animal. They wanted to sit on it so that they could go kill other people more efficiently. Mm-hmm. That was the only goal. It was just fast moving. Wartime stuff. Mm-hmm. And so they put these big huge bits in their mouth with spikes out of the bit and they would put it in their mouth until the horse literally like was bleeding outta the mouth and just completely gave up. And that was the first origins of bits. And they used that as the sole method, like true solid pain in their mouth with blood everywhere. I mean, it was like sharp spikes. You should look this up online. It, there's pictures of Genghis Khan. Bits, and that was the first bits. And then they started going into the Roman Empire and all the other people saw that as a method of training these horses. And it was this brute force pain method of destroying their mouth and yanking on their mouth. And it was highly effective because, you know, the more you yank on it, the more the knife blades go into their gums and you know, it's very effective training. So it's a terrible way of doing it. And now we're still putting these stupid pieces of metal in our hor, our horse's mouth. Thinking that that's like the best, most sensitive way of communicating with them. It is absolutely not. You want to yank on your best friend's mouth all the time. No. With a piece of metal, and then it clanks on their teeth and they get all stressed about it when they put it in their mouth. All these mental psychology problems that are associated with that, it's, I often liken some of the relationships of people and horses to slavery. I mean, that's, yes. It's a very valid analogy there and yeah, that his, I can tell you're very passionate about not hurting the horses and the education needed. And I get that. I definitely get that. Yeah. Yeah. My passion, I guess, comes through with that from that early experience. I just, I got exposed to a scary trainer and I was like, wow, I, I need to do something other than this. But anyway, it's been really amazing talking with it. Oh. Something about Laminitis you wanted to mention potential. Oh, yeah. You said you're doing, you've got some new things with hoof care and, and laminate courses and what mm-hmm. Can you kind of encapsulate that a little bit? Yeah. So, I do hoof care rehabilitation. I apprenticed with the National Ho Hoof Care Practitioners of America, Pete Rainey's work with a farrier in Hawaii. And I've done many, many years of that 22 years of, of hoof care. I now mostly specialize, I do some maintenance terms, but I mo mostly specialize in hoof care rehabilitation. So like really gnarly cases that are, you know, intractable or challenging. Big, you know, slipper hooves, crazy stuff like that. Lam, you know, founder navicular usual kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. Grass founder, though, is such an interesting, weird thing. Grass laminitis. It's now hopefully never fully founder. It is a lamini issue caused by sugary grass around in the contiguous United States areas. It never was really a problem in Hawaii. It kind of was, but it's a big problem actually. Yeah. Especially with minis. They're super super Oh yeah. Susceptible to it. I have a mini and. It's, it's actually interesting to just describe the mechanism. Horses have sensitivity to sugar in certain tissues of their body, which includes the lamina of their hoof. So if you look at the hoof, you know, it's got the, the outer wall. Okay. Just inside from the wall, there's a couple layers of lamina the white line and the bloodline. And then there's the actual, like tissue that surrounds the, the distal pads and all that surrounds the bones. Now that sort of layer in between can get sandwiched between the bone and the outer wall of the hoof and there's no real way for it to expand very well. So if it gets swollen, sort of like tissue swelling from the sugar, it's a reaction is osmotic reaction to sugar. So sugar just makes the tissue swell. There's nowhere for it to go. So it gets pressurized inside and it hurts. So, I mean, think about it basically as you whack the tip of your finger with an with a hammer. Mm-hmm. And there's a blood blister underneath your nail and there's nowhere for it to go. You know that kind of throbbing pain that you get and you can kind of use your finger, but it still hurts and you're just sort of off your finger. Right. It kind of just hurts it throbs sometimes, stuff like that, that's exactly what they feel. So grass laminitis though is weird because it's actually caused by the food they eat. That has a high sugar content. And so it seems that all of the grasses around here are very, very seasonal. And so they store up all their energy and they pump it out about twice a year. Right now is actually the fall time. the grasses self-defense mechanism to protect itself from frost, which is the worst part of it. So the sugar actually drops the there's like a flow, em, there's, there's liquid in grass, right? It's the natural, like liquid of plants, the tissue. They're trying to prevent themselves from freezing by dropping the sap, freezing level with sugar. You can do that too by salting the road, right? Like road, right? No, totally. That's frozen. You put salt on it drops the temperature. So they're doing that to protect themselves from these cold mornings. So the worst time to put your horse out on fresh grass. You shouldn't really have them eat it at all if they're susceptible, but dry alfalfa's great. It's relatively low in sugar. It's very good in protein and a bunch of other things. Horses are great with alfalfa. You can't feed them exclusively alfalfa for a long time, or they might get a calcium compaction. Is the, the risk, but if you alternate with other foods, it's fine. So alfalfa's great te hay. If it's a really sensitive horse that's like super zero sugar. There's actually another one called meadow Grass. Hay, which is even lower. But anyway, that's the usual laminate stuff. Soaking. What about soaking the hay? I, I've dealt with this with Ypsi over the years, and they have our, our local OSU out out branch office has a tester where you can go get a core sample Oh wow. Of the hay, get it tested for sugar from whatever field you're buying it from, even if it's meadow grass. And then there was, I don't know. This is what I was gonna ask you about. Have you ever heard about the iron, copper, and zinc having an effect on the sugar uptake? Yeah, I've heard a little bit about it. I haven't really researched that much. It might help. For sure. I also heard vitamin C helps. Yeah. There is a woman down in she was working under a vet down in the Medford area. And, and what I understood, and maybe I got it wrong, is that there's one receptor for iron, copper, and zinc. Mm-hmm. And the ratios of that are something like 10 to three to one in that order, iron, copper, and zinc. And if it, if it gets out of whack, your horse can't. Regulate it because there's only one receptor for all three of the minerals. Mm-hmm. And somehow the balance of those minerals, and this is the part I don't really get, is tied into how they metabolize sugar. Hmm. So, I mean, I don't know if it's real or not, but well, I mean, you know, it could very well be, I need to do some more research. That's interesting to hear. You know, the, the real challenge is, I mean, your horse really shouldn't eat sugar. I think a lot of people should know that horses are keto fully. Hundred percent their entire body is running keto. Which means that basically ketone bodies and, and bacterial byproducts are what they're actually eating, right? They're not they're not meant to metabolize sugar like humans do or other types of animals. Like it's unhealthy for them to eat a lot of sugar. What they usually eat is. Grass, which they get some nutrition and some stuff from that. Mm-hmm. Maybe very, very, very, very, very small amounts of sugar that they usually have in grass. But then a lot of their energy they get is from fats. And if you, you know, are trying to pump up like a race horse or something, you give'em racehorse oats because it's like, you know, it's carby but not sugar. You give them sugar, like sugar cubes, it's really terrible for your horse. really sweet apples and they just overdose on'em, you know, it's not healthy. But actually it's, it's their. Cecum and the archaea bacteria, which actually break down starch, that then produces a vast majority of their nutrients. And so, you know, it's a really essential, like gut biome type of, reaction they're having. They're like cows in that sense. Yeah. I mean, I wondered for years how cows could be so muscular when all they're eating is grass, but there's a byproduct in their digestion that creates the protein that is actually what's feeding them. Yeah, well, you know, there's some direct protein too from the grasses, but all of this, all of the the. Fiber is really what they get a lot of their nutrients from, right? 70% of the food that they eat is not processed. And that's a lot of times why horses poop in one pile, which is interesting. Stallions, poop all in one pile. It's actually, because in the wintertime. That's an instinct. They poop all in one pile. After, in the wintertime, they get super, super hungry. The whole herd is starving. They'll go dig up that old pile and eat it after all of the parasites have died from frost. And so that's why they actually like, and you'll see horses eat their own poop sometimes, or not their own, usually others. And it's like, why did they just do that? My mini just ate like a big chunk of the other horse's poop fresh. And she was like all about it and it was really confusing and it was weird, but they're actually sharing Biome, right. And there was like, okay, that smells good to them. For some reason it's, it's good to know that there's an actual like reason for them to do that because Firefly only does that when she's really, really mad at me. She will, oh wow. Squeal. She will stomp and then she will look at me and then she will eat her poop and then she'll look at, she just did. And she'll look at glare at me again. Wow. Saying interest eat shit. Oh, wow. Interesting. I don't think she's saying that. You don't think so? No. I mean, it is a, a craving for them. Sometimes it's weird, even though they're totally stuffed with normal, delicious food and they have no shortage of food. I mean, if they're hungry too, they'll eat that. Which is not, but not all horses squeal and stomp. When they're doing No, that's interesting. At maybe she really loves it. I don't know. No, she's, she, when she's done it, she's been mad. Oh, okay. Maybe that's not good then. I don't know. I'd have to see it. Yeah. You know, it's, it's really funny. But that's, that's actually a weird one. They just all poop in one spot. Especially the stallions. They're like, they're thinking ahead. They're thinking the stud pile. Rough winter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, the Laminitis thing is just weird. I've never really had to protect my horses from grass. You don't think that's like something you have to do, but I keep'em inside. You know, they're inside their smaller area right now. It keeps them from having, grass poisoning. Yeah. No, I have sy separated right now. She's on a diet and yeah, she has to, normally she disp spends two days a week separated, you know, so that she doesn't eat as much as everybody else. But yeah, she's, she's better as she was last week. But it's, it's, it's manageable if you're pay attention. Yeah. And, and you're paying attention to those things with a horse that's had it before, it's absolutely manageable for lots of different ways. I mean, so like one of my horses, unfortunately, mango is now susceptible. Last year, I, I missed, like, I put her out about six hours too early. It was early in the morning. It was cold grass. She got a dose and she came in all lame, and it was like acute and I was like, uhoh. So I locked her in and I fed her only chaff. Which you have to prepare them for. But she loves it. So she eats that. That's one of the best things as like an emergency, drop the sugar in their bloodstream as quickly as possible kind of thing. Because Is that fermented, that hay? Yeah. What is it called? Hey, hay in a bag. Yeah. It's like silage basically, but it's just fermented alfalfa. Mm-hmm. It ferments all the sugar out. It's like the best, it's even better than Meadow grass. It's the, the best emergency backup, like get my horse outta dodge kind of situation stuff. I keep a bag of that. Now if the horse isn't used to it though, they won't eat it necessarily. If it's like a fresh thing, you gotta be careful it's a little bit at time and make it better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once, once they like it though, that's like crack for them. They'll eat it faster than grain. They'll prefer that over grain if they get the too crazy once they get on it. Yeah. No, I've used it. I've used it too. You started to say the thing about when the grass is the most dangerous and there's something about the height and there's something about the time of day. Can you run through that? Yeah. So I mean, if it's cold in the morning, that's the problem is at night, right? The coldest time. So you really don't want the horses, if they're susceptible, don't let'em graze at night. Especially in cool evenings, cold evenings, frost, poten potentially in the ground. And even if your thermometer is up high and it's not reading anywhere close, it could be 39 up high, but it's frost on the ground, you know, little bits. It's enough for the grass to freak out, stress out, make sure it's not gonna die. It's all of it. Cells burst if it freezes, so it's gonna completely kill the grass. So it's gonna protect itself with sugar and it's gonna pump that sugar in overnight. So early morning is like the most dangerous. Once the sun starts shining though, apparently it. Metabolizes that sugar into other things like starches and fats and other things, which are a little more complex. And so it's better, like if it's fresh grass and you're gonna give it to'em at all, which if they're susceptible, you really shouldn't. But if you are gonna just give'em a little nibble it'll be a better thing in like a warm afternoon after the sun has hit it for a little while, it's gonna be different. A totally different profile in the afternoon, which is really weird. Just a co couple hours is enough. Right. And so those are cold times of year. I, I've heard this, that in the summertime it's reversed that in the summertime you don't want them grazing in the heat of the day. Yeah. That it's better at night. Is that, is that what you've heard too? Right? Yeah. So it's a weird one because, yeah, it's the opposite in the summer, and the reason why is now they're making sugar with super high intensity sun. Okay. So they're, they're producing that all of the, you know. Plants are doing their thing. They're all bright green, right? That rich green is what they're doing there. And then in the night they're actually processing other things. There's other stuff going on in the plant at night but it's not as high in sugar. So in the summertime, if like it's a, you know, evening nighttime, like nine to 10 o'clock, that's like a great place to let the horses graze a little bit. But you know, if you're, if you're super sensitive, it's, if the horse is super sensitive, you don't like my mini. She eats alfalfa and orchard grass, or you know. Timothy Hay or some other kind of thing like that, you know, I don't really go too teff'cause they really don't like it unless it's like an emergency food, you know, it's not their priority food. Do fine on alfalfa. I give her that type of stuff and then she'll go out maybe an hour or two in the afternoon. Mm-hmm. This time she's totally fine with that. No problem. And, and there's something about the length too, like really short grass has more sugar, three to seven inches has less. And then in the summertime when you're over seven inches, sometimes you've got the the grain on there. Yeah. And then that has, does that have sugar? How does that affect them? Richer. It's much richer. Yeah. It's definitely fattening. They'll fatten up real quick on the grain grass, which is awesome, but I think that's probably one of the best for them because it has the highest amount of fats. And again, the fats are like really what they're. They should be eating. And yeah. So I mean, all of those kind of grasses generally are pretty good. Now, a lot of times the horses will just go and pick all the grass tips off and eat all the seeds, which might actually be too much. So again, it's gonna be one of those like frugal type things. You know, it is amazing when you look at a horse like an Icelandic, they live in Iceland and eat like a handful of moss. A year. Like, I'm not even kidding. They eat so little and they're fine. They're fat, they're fine. They got big coats. They're a winner in Iceland, I mean, which is actually really green anyway. And Greenland's icy. But so, but it's a really beautiful place to have horses. Absolutely gorgeous, but they don't eat that much. And then they come to Hawaii here somewhere and it's just. Massive amount of food. It is like going into a grocery store and not having a satiety center in your brain. Right? Right. You just need everything. It's too much. So you gotta kind of like limit a little bit, unfortunately. But so much, with that. Wow. We've covered a lot of information and I am, I'm grateful for the perspectives, grateful for the training philosophy. Okay. Because it really is in line with what the show is all about, which is the quiet revolution. The movement away from absolute dominance. Now, there are some times when dominance is appropriate in short amounts to protect ourselves or to control in a particular situation. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. You know, we have, we have exceptions. Health, safety and travel are three exceptions. Sure. Where I will become dominant, you know, it is benevolent leadership. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's not free choice and yeah, I agree. Yep. You know, there's some things that you just, you have to do, but that doesn't create the abnormal psychology. Yes. The constant dominance. Yeah. The constant control. The not allowing the horse to show up or be a person of slavery. Is what we are against. Would you say, ask everybody this question, I call it the quiet revolution in the horse world. Would you say that you are part of that revolution? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's where it has to be. It needs to be quiet because if it was really a open thing all these other horse trainers would fight it. So it just has to be a common sense movement with horses. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for what you do, Isha. I appreciate it. Oh, thank you, Solomon. It's been a pleasure to reconnect and I'm gonna definitely look into this Shepherd thing and who, maybe I can make it up to the park. It's on Sunday. At what time is the, yeah, so it's gonna start at this week or next week, but it's Sunday at noon, so just, you know, anybody shows up Sunday at noon at Elijah Bristow, come on down, ride bareback with us. Okay. That sounds awesome. Awesome. All right. Good to see you. Thank you. You too. Take care. Bye bye.