Devon O'Day from Mustang Heritage Foundation

https://www.mustangheritagefoundation.org/

Director of Media & Marketing

Devon O’Day has been a career broadcaster known for local, regional and nationally syndicated radio since 1976. She is a member of the Tennessee Radio Hall of Fame. As a songwriter, she has had songs recorded by Hank Williams Jr, Pam Tillis, Lee Ann Womack, and many more including a number one for George Strait. As a professional corporate speaker and emcee, she has been at the podium for local and national charities and companies for over 30 years.

She is a flagship writer for Guidepost Magazine’s All God’s Creatures Devotion books and magazine with horses being a constant theme. Devon has written several books including My Angels Wear Fur, which began with her story of Maria, an old walking horse that she credits as being her life-saver.

Working for the preservation and care of all equines has been a life-calling for Devon as she uses her strong social media platform to get others to understand the importance of responsible ownership, care, and breeding of all horses.

In her personal life, she owns Angel Horse Farm, a small sanctuary in Lebanon TN, that homes senior equines and special needs livestock including a blind steer, a pig who hates pigs, and several old goats as well as the more typical dogs and cats.

www://rewildingtogether.net-- Mustang Wilderness Journey June 24-28th 2026

Transcript

Speaker: 0:00

Hi, I am Ishy Abel with the Horse Human Connection Matrix podcast. Today I have a special guest. I have Devin Oday from the Mustang Heritage Foundation, which is a very large organization in Tennessee. And you're a little bit famous in a behind the scenes kind of way, in addition to your current job in media marketing and membership for the foundation. Is that right, Devon?

Speaker 3: 0:25

Well, I don't know if I, if I'm famous is the right word, but I've had 40 years in the music industry, radio and television. And so I have been a songwriter, professional songwriter throughout that time there. So I've been very blessed as a songwriter and I spent a lot of time in support of songwriters in this town, so

Speaker: 0:46

That's awesome. So today we're gonna be talking about Mustangs and I reached out to you as I'm doing this winter series, trying to understand better. What is happening with Mustangs and what information is accurate and what isn't? And it's a difficult job because Mustangs are handled by BLM largely, and it sounds like a little bit by the Forest Service after being on your website. But every state is different. Every territory and management area has different environmental issues and terrain issues, and and probably competing issues from the cattle and maybe lamb raising industries too, is that like, help me understand what we're facing.

Speaker 3: 1:32

If you ask five people about the plight of the Mustang, you'll get five different answers. That's that's what we're facing, we're facing that Everybody has an opinion about what to do and how to do it, and no one is doing it right according to everybody that you ask. But. I believe in the Starfish principle. Everyone that you work with and everyone that you save, everyone that either has a forever home on the range or a forever home in a, in a home is something good. And that's, that's the way I've always done rescue. That's what I've always done for horses and what I always believe. And there are, first of all, let me address the thing with the Forest Service. A Forest Service is an amazing organization. The Devil's Garden is a huge land area and a lot of the horses that they govern and that area and some of the other areas of the country that, I mean, there are a lot of horses and a lot of land that they take care of, but they also step in when the Bureau of Land Management needs help. For instance, I adopted my Mustang through the Forest Service. But she's freeze branded. She was a bl m Mustang. They just had so many that they had the Forest Service help them get them dispersed and into homes and that sort of thing. So they all work together. They, they really do are the government works together, the Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service. There are a lot of critics out there about how they do things. We stay out of that whole political arena because it is a problem that if you have too many horses on a land, the, the Forest Service has an amazing video that if you go and and do a quick Google or a search on YouTube, you can find it. That will show you land with wild horses on it before and after, and how they can eat down so much and they can use up all the water so that other wildlife can't even use it.

Speaker: 3:34

Okay, so I did, I recently did an interview and because you and I have just met, you're probably not familiar with the 50 some odd podcasts that are floating around out there, but very recently I interviewed people with the WildHorse Fire Brigade, who, I love them.

Speaker 3: 3:49

Oh my gosh, I love them so much.

Speaker: 3:52

Awesome. So yeah, having a purpose for the horses out, because they're actually browsers like not as much as goats, but they're not just grazers. They are browsers.

Speaker 3: 4:02

They are, and they will take down underbrush that helps alleviate wildfire issues. And you can find a place that has wild horses. The BLM and the Forest Service are not trying to eradicate the herds. They're not trying to, unless they've been told something from someone else in government, they're not trying to eradicate the herds. They're trying to keep them in a reasonable number, just like you do any wild animal. You know, let's look at the number of deer, let's look at the bear, let's look at the wolves. Do we have to move somebody around? Do we have to do something? It's really, stewardship is what they've been given. But the WildHorse fire brigade, they're very, very good about teaching how the, they, they keep the underbrush down and if you keep the underbrush down, the ignition and the fuel for fires, right, they shut down. And if you live in those areas, you're very grateful to what the WildHorse is doing, even if you don't know that they're doing it

Speaker: 4:59

right. I mean, we could use, like, where I live, we could use a lot more of that. Like there's stages here in Oregon because we grow trees and there's all kinds of stages in between where. The horses could be hugely helpful in keeping the brush down as the young trees grow up after they've been replanted. And I think unlike cows, horses are not really likely to browse on the trees, even though cows will. Yeah. There's a, there's so many things that can be done and like the Mustang Makeover programs, those are still in existence, right?

Speaker 3: 5:35

They have been, for a very long time, the extreme Mustang makeover, which is something that Mustang Heritage Foundations began years ago. That your organization

Speaker: 5:47

started that.

Speaker 3: 5:48

Yes, they started that. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. They started that because they said competition, getting somebody excited about winning. A purse at the end of it, they'll go and adopt those horses and at the end of that, they auctioned horses off into homes. And those horses were green broke and gentle and ready to, to continue their training. That was a very good way of getting horses, into the world, instead of having let's say someone who says, oh my gosh, I have a bleeding heart. I must adopt a horse. That was me. That was me. I mean, I'll be honest, I'll go in the bleeding heart. I wanna adopt a horse. I mean, I've got to save them. And if you don't know what you're doing, you probably don't do you or the horse a favor.

Speaker: 6:29

Right? And those are a lot of horses that end up on the auction trucks to Canada when the auction is over because people got in over their head.

Speaker 3: 6:38

And that's why the government said, the extreme makeovers get them into the hands of a trainer. The TIP program the trainer Incentive program, they started the, that was a government program, not our program, but the government program and TIP trainers would adopt. They would take a bunch of courses and get them trained and get them started and get them into, into the public's hands. And I don't know exactly all of the reason that it was stopped. I know that everything in the government deals with money.

Speaker: 7:13

It does. And I know they weren't getting paid a whole lot. Like here it was like maybe$650.

Speaker 2: 7:19

Yeah. It was lot. And it's more than,

Speaker: 7:20

it's more than 30 days. And I was noticing as I looked at your website, the criteria for adopting mustangs and you know, not everybody has the same idea of. Gentling and ethical training methods. And I was noticing on there that having fresh water for the horses is on the criteria list. I know there's a woman who was selling mustangs around here and I went to go look at one and she had three round pen panels, you know, 12 foot panels in a triangle. Yeah. And at the apex of that triangle, she would bring water once a day in a two gallon bucket, allow them to drink for an hour and then take the water away. And I just like, that is not the way to general horse, like the, the dominance and the abuse that that can happen is an issue too, you know? And, and the education I wish we had, wow. I wish we had horse education in schools. I wish we had horses in schools. Not only for kids to learn about animal husbandry and all, but for helping kids regulate. Like so many people are. Dysregulated emotional. We have a lot of a lot of trauma in schools. Oh. And horses could be doing so much good.

Speaker 3: 8:41

Mm-hmm. I, I totally agree with you. That's, but one of the planks of the plan for Mustang Heritage Foundation is education. That's first and foremost about what we want, and we launched a new program. Now people can apply for grant money from us for educational purposes. We started last year with Rebecca Bowman at Fall Creek Falls Equestrian. She brought in Mustangs for adoption, but we also brought in. Four different trainers that were incredible. One was a former bureau of Land Management employee. He's a fantastic trainer. And Michael Sanchez, Alyssa Renou, and we brought in ginger, duke, and several people, and we made that a free educational weekend.

Speaker 2: 9:34

Wow. They could

Speaker 3: 9:34

come in and we had two of them, and as a result, there were, I think, almost a hundred horses adopted. Some did not get adopted that day. What what happened was after the learning and after the education, those people who wanted to adopt went home and got their places ready instead of just taking a horse home that, oh, we need six foot fences. Why? Because a six foot fence is what you need, because those horses can jump anything.

Speaker 2: 10:04

Right.

Speaker 3: 10:06

That education process started there and now we, we had four more events. We had a horse human relationship one that was done by Mary Miller, Jordan, and there are so many things and they're, they're making so many of these things free for people so that you can learn about the Mustang, you can learn that they're different from a domestic horse.

Speaker: 10:28

How are they different for, for our listeners, how do you see them as being different?

Speaker 3: 10:33

They're, they're incredible thinkers. Mm-hmm. Where a domestic horse is an obeyer.

Speaker 2: 10:40

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 10:41

As a general rule, they kind of go in with the idea, oh, okay, I'm born into this. They feed me. This is the human, this is what we do. The domestic horse is. More likely to understand that people are not trying to eat them. They have not been prey their whole life.

Speaker 2: 11:00

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 11:01

That WildHorse, everything that comes in contact with them is trying to kill them. The, the, whether it's a mouth boy need to see,

Speaker: 11:12

really funny picture of my Mustang with the with my granddaughter's when she was little three-wheeled stroller and he was absolutely sure that thing was going to eat him as he was with the tire swing.

Speaker 3: 11:24

Yeah. Everything different is something that's going to kill you.

Speaker 2: 11:29

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 11:30

And that's what they have learned. It's, you know, any outlier is, is there. So they think things through. I always say they're very, somebody described it to me, they said, you know, a domestic course is like a dog.

Speaker 2: 11:45

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 11:46

Chances are they're gonna be loyal and kind of get to me a mustang is like a cat. You have to earn their trust. You have to earn their fee. You know you have to. But once you earn that love and attention, once you learn that and earn that, that bond is so incredible. Mm-hmm. Because they're looking to you. Here's the thing that I know, they're used to a herd hierarchy.

Speaker 2: 12:12

That's

Speaker 3: 12:12

what a Mustang is, that stallion, that mama, those two have been very protective. The, the young boys of the herd, you know, work as lieutenants in the herd and they kind of protect from one side. The mothers are fiercely protective of their young. It's really amazing to watch that brought home into a domestic situation. Oh no,

Speaker: 12:34

they have, they have their jobs. I had, I I, I had two, I still had two Mustangs, but I had a different Mustang who ended up passing away of skin cancer on his penis of all things. But they, they would give him a job. Like the, my lead mayor was also a Mustang and he was the lookout. I mean, I watched him chase a bobcat off up the hill, like he just put his nose down and snorted and he just chased that cat away.

Speaker 3: 13:01

That they do that at my little Mustang, she's only 12 one. She's a tiny little thing from the Mariah herd in Nevada and

Speaker 2: 13:09

mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 13:10

But she is fiercely protective of the old as I had a, I had older horses. So when I say older, they're over the age of 30, so she's very protective of them. If you know, one of the cows gets too close, I have one, I have a blind steer, and so when he gets too close, she lets him know, no, no, no, no. This is not your place. This is our hay. You, you have to go to the, the cow hay. You have to go to the other place. You know, and it's just funny to watch. I'm going, he's just a prissy little thing that says they're old, I'm taking care of them.

Speaker: 13:44

Yeah, the, the, the, so the herd hierarchy is more obvious with the mustangs Oh. Than maybe with the domestic courses. And I think with that comes in the preservation, like the what's good for the herd is good for everybody. There's less vying, you know, that, that, that kind of thing. That's

Speaker 3: 14:07

right. And they don't like to be separated. That's the other thing is that I thought I would have a hard time introducing my Mustang to my senior herd, because I have one mare. My red, my red American saddlebred mare is very, very, she's a mayor. She's definitely a mayor. And she doesn't know that she's 30. So she, she's very, very aggressive with anything new. I mean, it was over when Petya, the Mustang showed up. It was like it was on like Donkey Kong. As they said. She, they met over the fence. They were fast friends. And I'm just hoping that that Mustang doesn't learn any bad behavior from my old mayor. They immediately, because it's part of the herd, they want to be part of the herd. She was not going to have it the herd's that way. And when they ran toward the back, she's like, what are they running from? That was her instinct was she looked behind them. Yeah. So when you become, you become part of the Mustang herd as their trainer, their gentler, you are there. They're stallion, they're lead mayor, you're the one, your safety,

Speaker: 15:19

once you've established that.

Speaker 3: 15:20

Yeah. And when you look at direction, they're gonna look that direction. And when, when you let them know that they can trust you not to lead them into a bad situation

Speaker: 15:31

mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 15:31

Then you got'em.

Speaker: 15:32

Right. Because I think, I think one of the biggest things that I did with my horses back when I was on the larger ranch was to go out and hang out with them and be the lookout. Yes. Like just constantly scanning the horizon. They know that you're doing that. And if somebody is on the lookout, then everybody else can have their head down. You are spot on, spot on. And there's a lot of exercises like that that I know. I'm very fortunate to have a an extremely knowledgeable mentor and had some really good horse people train me early on about the behaviors and what you can do to earn that trust. You know, that, that being said, I think every school, like talking about trust and, and regulation and horse therapy and equine assisted learning, I have for some time thought that every school should have a couple of horses in it. When kids are dysregulated experiencing some kind of trauma or meltdown or trigger, you know, if, if somebody was trained enough to be out there with them, the amount of good the horse therapy can do a kid, even if you're just going out to brush them. Of course we might have kids faking that they're under some sort of trauma response to go out there and be with them, but it would also be a placement. And learning and the relationship learning that happens when you're learning about horses is so applicable to humans.

Speaker 3: 16:59

Well, I couldn't agree more. I think it's incredibly important. There is a girls school and academy in Chattanooga, Tennessee that has a team of Mustangs. Really? They, they and the girls have a drill team, and they're all, they learn on Mustangs. They're, they're, they're all Mustangs. And it's this beautiful drill team. But I've I've watched these young ladies, they write songs. Now, these are all young ladies who do not look like they would be cowgirls. Mm-hmm. They do not look like they would be writers English or Western. They, they're inner city kids. And we had a Mustang Hall of Fame gala not too long ago, and Dr. Zann Wells, who runs this program, she had her girl speak. And Dr. Sue n Wells allowed this time in front of the, and each one of the girls spoke, and each one was so eloquent, and the last one literally had us telling about what that Mustang had done for her. Yeah. And I mean, it brings tears even to this day. The power and the strength and the freedom that that horse evoked in this young lady. I don't think a domestic horse could have done what this Mustang did for her as she studied the life of the Mustang, where they came from. She knew, as you know, this horse was wild like me. And I loved that. I mean it just, it it got me. It really did.

Speaker: 18:29

There, there's definitely something a, about the wildness of spirit that speaks to so many of us, and the freedom and the, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this. The purpose of my podcast is. The revolution, the quiet revolution in the horse world. The movement away from absolute dominance. And the further down the road I've gotten with the podcast, the more I realize as the world continues to change, that this just isn't about the horses. This is about people and our culture, and it's about the whole world and the amount of dominance that's happening. I also, one of my next guests, I just read this paper by him the other day, and it's about the control and ai, but AI not being the beginning of that by any means. It's just another tool in the control of, of humans. And sometimes this topic is so big, I don't know where to start and where to break down. I was talking about horses in schools and somehow ended up here. Sorry. That's okay. But I think the point being is. There's a fear that Mustangs are going to be extinct. And I don't know, you know, it's hard when we're getting all this, all this information, like, you know, Y 2K, like, what was that, 20 years ago? In 1999, we were sure that we were gonna have this huge crash on New Year's because nobody had programmed computers to understand that we were changing into 2000, the year 2000. But that didn't happen. Yeah. And you know, when I was a kid in school, they said, you know, I think we're the same age, you know, I think in sixth and seventh grade, the population explosion was gonna happen and we were gonna have so many people in the, you know, and that didn't happen either. I mean, we, we have too many people, but we we're, we're not like busting off the planet because the, the population didn't follow the trajectory that they said it would. And so when we're talking about. Sterilizing the horses. You and I had a, a conversation on the phone the other day about like, is this steril and I wanna find out more about this. Is the sterilization for that season, like human birth control, is it happen for them for the rest of their lives if they get three shots? Is that what it takes for it to be permanent? Are there any, you know, side effects that, that if they do fall, that can cause birth defects or anything like, these are all really good questions and right. Is the trajectory with, as the wild Forest fire brigade people said with a genetic bottlenecking, is the viability not really there to continue and is it in pockets or is it overall.

Speaker 3: 21:22

Well, I know that it would be in pockets, first of all. I mean, I'm not a veterinarian. I can't speak to any of the permanent sterilization. I don't know. I know that darting was one of the ways that they found that they could keep horses wild. Mm-hmm. And in their, in their places without having to worry about the herd doubling every season. That's the, that's the thing that they were most, they go, okay, we can feed this amount on this amount of land. We can, they can find water with this amount of horses. But if you double that every season there, therein lies the problem. Then you have horses that are standing on roads. Then you have horses nobody ever talks about starvation of horses. Nobody ever even brings up how many car accidents and fatal truck accidents and things happen because there's a herd standing in the middle of the road. Do they, do they know better than to get in the road sometimes? Sometimes they don't. And there are a lot of accidents that way. Population stewardship is important. However I mean, I don't think anybody that I've ever asked with the Forest Service is saying, let's eradicate the herds. Never. They love these horses. They name these horses. They know their characteristics. I think that sometimes the big bad government hat gets put on people that really got into this business because they want to preserve all the wildlife within their jurisdiction. That's the most important thing. And people, if you ever meet these people, for instance, the, the gentleman who spoke at our seminar for free, he has Mustangs, loves them and knows so much about their behavior that this is a man who did it because he, he loved these animals. I don't think anybody wants the herds to be. Nobody I've ever spoken with wants to get rid of these herds. So I, I think probably a great podcast would be a veterinarian maybe that works with the darting program to find out how darting is also inaccurate sometimes and very expensive.

Speaker 2: 23:31

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 23:32

So that's why I'm saying pockets more than anything. Right. So it,

Speaker: 23:36

it's good to understand the whole thing. I mean, so I heard somebody talking the other day about a checker board. Yes. And that there were problems because some of the territory and the management areas checker boarded with ranchers. And, you know, when you're talking about open range where there aren't fences, sometimes there aren't cattle guards to keep them separate. It seems like there could be some more innovative answers, like if it weren't checkerboards, if things were more contiguous. And you know, the government is great about, what is it eminent? No do domain where they just, they can give you notice and take the land. If they're putting a highway through, they're gonna pay you for your land and you're gonna take it and that's gonna happen. And so they, they could do the same thing, experience

Speaker 3: 24:24

at the very moment. I, I, my front yard is imminent domain right now, so of my little farm, and so I get that. Totally. Yeah. You're talking in Wyoming and that's where that's, that's that's happening right now. And they're getting, they're, they're wanting to move those herds out completely. You know, when they say eradicate the herds, they don't mean they're gonna send'em to slaughter. They don't mean they're gonna kill them all. They don't mean any of that. That's just moving them to another area. But that's because of the, the checker boarding and. I don't fully, I don't have, that's something I cannot speak to because I don't understand enough about it but I do know there were, my Lord, some of our, the, the, the herds, there are some of the most beautiful and sought after and beautifully colored horses that you've ever seen in your life. Those

Speaker: 25:10

red, those red duns that look like they've got some appaloosa, like, oh my goodness.

Speaker 3: 25:14

They're just gorgeous and the paint colors and, and it's just, they're stunning. So those Wyoming horses it's, it's very important. What, and I just say follow the, the wild horse news. I mean, I, I mean, set up your Google alerts to keep up with the news, and I always say, how do you know what's true and what's not? Well, first of all, check to make sure it's not a satirical magazine or publication because they have satirical stories all the time. Mm-hmm. Number two, check your sources. And if there is a common thread in about five stories, that one thread is probably the truth. All the other stuff is probably opinion. Mm-hmm. So look for your common threads. That's how I, I, when I look for a story, I look for about five different sources with that same story.

Speaker: 25:58

Yeah, I, when I was, I, I just resubscribed to Apple News and I was away for several months. Mm-hmm. But you know, looking for unbiased sources and that, but in the Mustang world, I'm sure there are particular publications that specialize in, I mean, you don't see Mustang stories in the mainstream news very often. What about land banks? I mean, I don't know. I was in real estate here in Oregon and in California for a short time, and we have wetlands here. Mm-hmm. And if, if you want, like our Walmart is situated on what was a wetlands area, and when they bought the land, they had to purchase the equivalent amount of acres from a wetlands bank that would then go into a land trust, a preservation. So that. The total amount of wetlands in Oregon will remain the same, but it does allow for development like in town when there happens to be a wetlands where the highest and best use for that land is commercial use, not being preserved as a wetlands here in the middle of, you know, downtown Roseburg. So I'm curious about this concept with land for the Mustangs. If the BLM has dual purposed the land and leased it to cattle or sheep grazing, we have a I don't know enough about the law or the way the Mustang and Bureau a act of, was it 71 or 78 was written to know if that goes against the intent of that act. But if it does, I mean, I guess that's one question, but an answer to some of these problems would be. Mustang Land Bank, national Mustang Land Banks.

Speaker 3: 27:44

I think that's an excellent idea. I think that that's something that you could, if, if you want to do something that would really affect change, start writing members of, of government, people that you're connected to, people from your state, your state representatives, your state senators. Start a letter writing campaign, a WildHorse Annie, who we all love and remember what she did, remember what she did and the change that she affected. She was just a one little woman who started a letter writing campaign of school children,

Speaker: 28:23

right? These were

Speaker 3: 28:25

children writing to congressmen and to representatives in Washington dc letters from school, children in school. And they were handwritten with pictures and thi and, and, and nobody wanted to go against this. And it was, it was incredible. But we forget that we have that kind of power.

Speaker: 28:47

We do forget in the, in the face of the news and everything that we hear, we completely forget that we have that power and you know, the belief and the efficacy that, that is gonna make a difference. I'd written that in my notes,'cause I saw that on your website, that letters to school children and horses in schools and land banks and the eminent domain to make the continuous things like all of these things can happen. The other thing that's kind of interested me is in my search, I've come across several Mustang rescues, which are a, a little bit different, but they're private land where people are putting mustangs on private land and caring for them in some regard, or allowing natural breeding. Or a measure of somewhat of natural breeding or natural breeding for a little while, because obviously with the populations growing that's whole other, like, sorry, I'm throwing so many questions out there and concepts at the same time, but does the natural breeding, seems like conditions would have to be really favorable for a population to double in a year given, you know, full mo mortality and natural predators.

Speaker 3: 29:59

Oh, oh, now that's something else as you bring up. I always mention this to people too. When I say the population doubles. Yeah, it has the propensity to do that. But just remember, not all will be life folds. Part of that is also a food source. Wild horses are part of a food chain as well. In the wild. They are part of a food, food chain. That's why they come to us with the personality of, everything's going to eat me because they are a prey animal. That's what they are. I always venture to say, when people will say, we just need to get rid of'em, and I said, you think about not only do they help with fire and eating down brush, but they also are a buffer of a food source for wolves, bears mountain lions. If we remove that food source, those other animals still need to eat. Where do they come? They go to livestock, right? They go, you know, I mean, you, you, you, you start backing it up, okay? Remember, your wild horse is there. Everything on God's earth has a purpose. I, I don't know about mosquitoes and fleas. I'm not quite seeing mites, not so much, but, but everything does have a purpose. And I always say when you remove entire animal groups from an area, it creates a gap there. And I go, okay, those other animals that are, but they're, they're the buffer between you and some dangerous animals. What happens next?

Speaker: 31:34

Right. No, it's like with the deer, with the deer population and, and hunting. Like when I first moved to Oregon, it was still legal to hunt bears and, and cougars with dogs. And then they made that illegal. And then the deer population exploded. I, in one little on the west side of town in one little area. I remember the population control permits for hunting dos was like 3000 issued because we had like this, you know, bloom of, and they're dead on the side of the road. Like, you know, every 50 feet you're seeing a dead deer.

Speaker 3: 32:13

Well, if you think about hitting a deer. And they're heavy. I mean, a big deer is heavy and the damage it can do to a, a vehicle, it's, it's that way in Tennessee. I mean, if you don't have that population controlled, at least a little bit. I mean, during running season, man, I tell you what, it's just wreck after wreck after wreck of people getting deer. And you know, and the deer are not the only ones that are affected. People are affected as well. And that's the same thing. If you don't work with the populations of things, we have to, we can coexist together. I do believe that we can coexist in this world together.

Speaker: 32:50

Yeah. Yeah. No, I imagine that hitting a horse is more like hitting a moose. Like that is so dangerous. I lived in Alaska for a year, week and three days, and the moose on the Palmer Wasilla Highway, they have a big sign like how many moose have been killed. And you're wondering if 200 moose have been killed. How many people got killed in those accidents?'cause those are big animals.

Speaker 3: 33:11

I have a dear friend that was in a near fatal accident in, in Canada with a moose and it was all that, you know, and you know, over 20 surgeries later, she's still with us. She's a recording artist and she tells her story. But it was I mean that was one case. I mean, and you know, there are tons of those cases where people hit a wild animal. You know, you're just tootling along. It's dark. I mean, we have to watch where I am. I mean, we're out in the country and deer as you, you go, so you know, your wild horses in those areas, it's very desolate. A lot of those roads are very desolate. They wouldn't necessarily know to look, you have one car every two hours, you know, but if you're that one car,

Speaker: 33:57

right, right there, there is that. So there are there are court battles that I'm told about still trying to support, maybe interpret the WildHorse and Vero Act of, is it 71 or 78?

Speaker 3: 34:13

You know, I can't remember. Anyways, that, that act, that's what that act, it's the one act that we've had The the The

Speaker: 34:21

One Act. The one act show. So I'm curious, does the Mustang Heritage Foundation have anything to do with supporting the funding for any of that court stuff

Speaker 3: 34:32

at this point, no. At this point? No. No. And we are not government funded either. I mean, that's the thing that while we did work with the Bureau of Land Management at one time as far as helping place horses. Mm-hmm. And they had some money that they helped us with to get those horses place. They would provide the horses and the TIP program and things like that. But we don't get government funding anymore. We have been separate from any government funding. We work with the Forest Service, but we do not get funding from them. And we are 100% non-profit. You go out and raise your money, sell candy bars, whatever it takes is to make the, the, the nut for what we do. We are not, we do not get into government fights.

Speaker: 35:18

So how, how do you make the money? What are some of the programs you have that make money

Speaker 3: 35:24

that I'm so glad you asked. We do everything from, well our, one of our most recent, we had a barn dance where we brought four live mustangs into a Nashville honky tonk. Oh my gosh. We brought them literally in, and it was as much about, because we're a tourist area, so we advertised to tour. So we had people who showed up from England, from Ireland, from all over, and they go, these are actual wild horses. And they were, but they'd all been gentle.

Speaker: 35:50

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 35:52

And did they not write, not

Speaker: 35:53

gentle to the point of being rideable, but gentle to Oh, no,

Speaker 3: 35:56

no. These were writeable. They were okay. One little girl, a little 12-year-old girl was there with her Palino, who was a former extreme Mustang makeover horse. That horse has been under saddle for two years, and now it is a lesson horse for a little 10-year-old girl. They had the Southeast roping champion. Mm-hmm. He is a roping horse. He was an untouchable. Horse that someone had adopted. It's one of those that could have ended up in a terrible situation.

Speaker 2: 36:24

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 36:24

But this wonderful roping cowboy said, I think I need to work with that horse. And he did. And he's a southeast ROP roping champion. We had two other, one was a singer songwriter who came from Nevada u Utah. And she brought her horse along with his best buddy who was a paint horse. And they're, they're literally just two peas in a pod. They, so she brought both of them. And his name is, his name is Bluebird and Blue was just absolutely stunning. ULA gelding. And so watching people respond and they were just fascinated getting their selfies with these former wild off the range Mustangs. People think they use the term wild as if they cannot be domesticated in some ways, but they can't.

Speaker: 37:14

Perception is so important here. I mean, there are people that's, we did that. There are people who don't even realize there's still wild horses in the United States. There are people that get surprised to hear that and then more surprised to understand that it's not a zebra, you like it actually is a horse that is domestic hateable. They're just different.

Speaker 3: 37:36

Yeah. They're just different. And I, I think all the time, one of the things that, that I spent my first year with the organization moving from music into this, telling people I didn't work. I Mustang Heritage Foundation, people thought I worked with vintage cars. I mean, I go, no, do I? I mean, I've been with horses my whole life. No, it's, and that's literally the perception that we face. Is telling people, one, there are wild horses. Two, they need our help. And three, there's something you can do. We have a campaign within our organization. You don't have to own a Mustang to save one. So we have to go outside the bubble to get people to understand that you can help conserve this wonderful, wonderful natural resource.

Speaker: 38:25

Yes. So I mean, this is something, if you're coming from the vantage point of maybe some particular herds in Northern California and Oregon that are being genetically bottlenecked for one reason or another, whether that's sterilization or the herds just are not big enough, and it seems like there's a big decline. That doesn't necessarily mean there's a decline nationally of this national treasure of wild horses. Your organization is there to save and help save the Mustangs. And it sounds like one of the major ways is to place them with people as the numbers grow to take, you know, it's like a resource that's being grown. I mean, it could be your bank account, right? You, you invest in something that creates interest and uses extra money. So you sweep that money into a savings account or you sweep it into your vacation fund. You're sweeping the extra Mustangs into a pipeline that promotes adoption. Is that correct?

Speaker 3: 39:25

That's That is correct. What we don't get involved in what the government does out on the range because that's not our business. But what breaks my heart is to see these beautiful wild creatures that are relegated to living in. Small government holding.

Speaker 2: 39:44

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 39:45

It's, you know. Now do they take amazing care of them? Yes. Do Do they love them? Yes. Do they want them to find forever homes? Yes. That's the bottom line, is the, the government's not some big bad entity. They've got a job, they have to do it to keep balance. Balance is the optimum word here, but we wanna get them out of those holding pins and into forever homes. And what we found out with, as we, and I'm so glad you asked this question, we, what started with Extreme Mustang Makeover? We found a need for all these people who wanted to keep their mustangs because they would train these mustangs and get these wonderful bonds. And then part of our program was they auction, auction em off auction. Yeah. Now they could buy their own horse back, which many of them did. But here's the thing that we have next October in Edinburgh, Indiana, we're going to have a wild horse and Burrow finals because the wild horses and burrows that people have kept, any of the wild horses and wild burrows can compete in this show. That's going to be next October. All the details are on our website, but this is to encourage, they have a green division, which would be your. Recently adopted, but for those people who've had their mustangs for years and they want to compete still in a finals that they, this one, this says, we want you to love your Mustang. We want you to keep your Mustang and here's a market for you to show your Mustang in a finals competition.

Speaker: 41:21

That's, that's amazing. I wanna break this down'cause you and I have watched some of these. I'm, I, I'm sure you've watched more than I have, but I've been so impressed. I just wanna describe a little bit of this for listeners. This is just not like a walk truck canner around an arena kind of show. This is theater. Like these mustangs are trained to ride in the back of convertibles and get out. They're trained to lay down while their owners do a song and dance and act out a scene like with Mustangs rolling on their backs and people balancing on their legs. And I mean, the types of stuff that happens is just absolutely incredible entertainment.

Speaker 3: 42:00

Well, you'll probably make me cry in this one because we just lost a premier horse entertainer. One of the number one entertainers that's ever been in the equine world was the late Bobby Kerr. He's a member of our Mustang Hall of Fame. You

Speaker: 42:14

heard that name.

Speaker 3: 42:15

Bobby Kerr lost his his battle with cancer on this side, gained his wings on the other side, but he performed with Mustangs solely with, it's just, it's incredible. And he's the one, he, his mustangs would jump through fire for him. They would jump over a burning car. They would get in the car and ride around with him. He had his dog in and the act. He had a mini in the act that would work with these mustangs. He had birds and chickens who would be participating with these mustangs. It was unbelievable. And he's won every cowboy award. Possible with Mustangs. And that's the thing that I want to bring up too. The horse world has priced itself out of the market. I mean, a cheap horse is 60 grand if you're a kid, if you wanna get involved in horses, most parents can't do that. But then you start looking into American saddle Breads and others where they're, they're over their six figures and up. What are we doing? What are we, do we, well, kids can't do that, but you know, a kid can adopt a Mustang for$125. One of the highlights of my life was watching a 9-year-old at our last competition at the Kentucky Horse Park. Take her horse. On a lead. That horse jumped for her. That horse got on pedestals for her. That horse did everything she wanted. She got underneath it, walked underneath it. She was on top of it. She was all over this horse. She was nine years old. Children and Mustangs worked together like peanut butter and jelly. I'm telling you, it's the most amazing thing I've ever seen. A Mustang and a veteran. We have people and I, I do cry because I, we have these veterans that I, I love the story of Doc who was in a wheelchair. He's a, he, he, he dealt with a lot of issues and he said, I couldn't get on that horse, but I would go every day and read to her. Finally, he said, would you wield me out there? And they said, are you sure, doc? Are you sure? And he said, yeah. And I, he said, that horse came over and put her head right in my chest. She knew me. And watching what happens for, I say, Mustangs are medicine. Their medicine for the American veteran, they're me, medicine for children. They literally are at a$125 horse in the right hands. I tell you, God sent him here for a purpose. And there's this one scene that I watched this little young lady do a couple of years ago. She had this beautiful dress and she was barefoot. Mm-hmm. And she had her horse, her Mustang, that she had trained for 90 days, 90 days.

Speaker: 45:13

That's not a lot of time.

Speaker 3: 45:14

No. She picked out her horse and this young, I think she was 12 or 13, she went out and she did all the things. She had him jump through things and whatever on lead. Then she took the whole she took the, the halter off.

Speaker 2: 45:30

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 45:31

There was no lead rope, no halter, and they danced. I mean, that horse did everything. He danced with her mood with her, and here was this beautiful young lady barefooted free and this horse. Bear and free

Speaker: 45:46

So if you were to, if you were to vision right now, if you were to vision a program that utilizes maybe groups of Mustangs, maybe not large groups, and people in these, I guess we can call them vulnerable categories. Veterans, children maybe autistic people maybe handicapped people. You could just vision a program, what would that look like? How would people come, where would the horses live? What would the interactions be? What would it, what would you call it?

Speaker 3: 46:22

I don't even have to vision it. It's already, it's already there and it's not our program. It's everybody else's. They're already programs all over the country. There are programs for veterans, there are programs for children, and our job as Mustang Heritage is to come up with programs where they can apply for grants to keep their programs open. We don't have to even invent the programs. Soul Stang is a beautiful program. We actually helped fund a program for veterans in Texas a few years ago. I've spoken to two, and I will send you a video of this. I've spoken to two of the veterans that went through that program. Both of them have gone back to their home states and started programs with Mustangs of veterans.

Speaker: 47:05

I love that. I love that. It's amazing how powerful it is.

Speaker 3: 47:10

There's Soul Stang who work, who works. That's Doc's story. He came from them. I went to visit them. They're in Ohio and right on the Kentucky border and watching what Soul Stang did, and Tina Caldwell and her, her group, these veterans who. Didn't want anything to do with horses, but it was a day away from the va, the day away from their, whatever they did. And so half the day they go do fishing and things like that, and half the day they work with horses. And she said, watching them respond when they didn't want to come. And then they're signing up, when is the next one? Can we come to that? When is the next one? It's, it's, it's astounding. And so our job and what Danielle Amit, who is our director of programs, she came up with ways that people could do education, sponsorships, they can do program sponsorships. We want to do grants that we can help more groups that wanna start programs like this. Our job is to help raise the money and people say, what do you use the money for? Education, for helping people that maybe are spending their time in the trenches with these mustangs. They're, they're working with these people groups.

Speaker 2: 48:23

Mm-hmm. Let's

Speaker 3: 48:23

help them. So they can keep doing what they're doing. That's, that's our goal is to help that. And every single thing that we do is focused on what can we do to create a demand to get these horses out of holding and into the hearts of people. That's it.

Speaker: 48:40

That's a beautiful narrow focus. You're not so much dealing with what's going on in the BLM management areas. No. You have money to help the horses that are living where they're not the happiest. I mean, I've been to the Mustang Pens and Burns Oregon and Yeah. I mean, you can tell they're, they're, they're healthy, they have good body weight. They have large areas. Yeah. But they're wild horses in, in a prison yard for,

Speaker 3: 49:10

for lack of a better word. Yes. And, and, and I, I cannot say enough nice things about the people that I have met. That are in charge of their care. These people in these holding facilities know what they have and they are so caring and they know each and every one of the horses. And that's the thing that I think we forget because the big bad government gets a bad name.

Speaker 2: 49:34

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 49:35

When they got into their, their jobs because they love our country, they love our environment, they love the creatures within that environment. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 49:47

And

Speaker: 49:47

There's a lot of five oh ones, five oh threes out there that are there to help Mustangs in one form or another. Are we being as efficient? As we could be.

Speaker 3: 50:00

No, because everyone, and now this is Deon talking and this is, this is me taking off my, my organization hat, and this is me with the spirit of the horse in mind. I think that for years there has been competition over community.

Speaker 2: 50:17

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 50:18

We have to start thinking of rescue sanctuaries, groups like ours, placement organizations. We have to start thinking as a community of people who love one horse, America's horse. This is America's horse. We forget that this is our horse. I mean, it is so distinctly American. No other horse. Can benefit, can really boast that this is America's horse. That's why in Germany,

Speaker 2: 50:47

mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 50:48

The biggest demand for horses around the world that are American mustangs is in Germany. They have extreme Mustang makeovers in Germany, and when they do a sale of a horse, those horses are$50,000.

Speaker 2: 51:03

Wow. They love

Speaker 3: 51:04

them. They treasure our resource sometimes more than we do. More than we do.

Speaker 2: 51:08

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:09

And so my goal and what I say is that we can all be friends because if we keep that horse in our sights as the reason that we are here, we can all work together. We could look at Skydog, which is a beautiful organization in California. Claire Staples runs Skydog Sanctuary and what people never give her credit. She's an amazing fundraiser. And I always say fundraisers get jealous of really good fundraisers because they think that they're getting all the money. Claire Staples is an amazing, she uses all of her star resources in California to raise incredible money. And, you know, people know that she has Blue Zeus, which is a film that came out this year, an independent film that has an award-winning film about this beautiful stallion that she drove in the dead of winner across to a pickup place for one of the, the government a holding pens. Mm-hmm. Picked him up for$25 and he became a horse of the year, and he was a briar horse. She reunited him with his herd at her house, at her place, at her rescue. It's, it's a beautiful story, but she said anybody could have gotten blue Zeus, anybody could have driven across mountain passes in the dead of winter. And gotten that horse for$25. And she says, you know, and she also, she works a lot with our friends at Devil's Garden in the Forest Service. Mm-hmm. What she said, they talk about the one horse that's showy and whatever that I end up with. But what they don't talk about is the 12 or 13 plane horses, you know, that had eye issues or foot issues that were really suffering and needed help. She said, we took them in, did their medical care, and they live with me too. She's in the, in right now, raising funds to get more land so she could take care of more horses. Not every horse will stay on the range, but if they're not on the range and they're into holding facility, let us help'em find homes. Let's not fight each other. Let's not compete with each other. Let's work with each other. We specialize.

Speaker: 53:16

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 3: 53:18

And the biggest thing everybody could do is share the, the good stories about Mustangs on social media. We forget the power that we have with the click of a button. The click of a, like the click of a share, share. Save lives more than anything. Good stories about Mustangs. Join a group, be part of that group, and let the world know how beautiful these horses are and how important they are as an American icon. I'd love for you to join our group because we really need you, we really need your, your help. And so

Speaker: 53:48

you said for$35 somebody could become a member. Let's talk a little bit about membership that, you

Speaker 3: 53:53

know, membership is something that grows every day because I've got a, a lot of, you know, corporate partners. Okay? At the very base, you get some really cool discounts. I mean, we've got organizations like Summit Health, and we've got Durango Boots, and we've got spana silk care products, and we've got Ely Walker, Western Wear. Those all give you discounts, but the truth is that$35 is for the person who may never, ever even own a Mustang. But they can still save one. That$35, we can put that good to good use. Membership money can go directly into grants. It can go directly into helping these other programs stay alive. It can help with education. We want people to know what they have Americans. It's not just Mustangs, but we forget what we have in this beautiful, glorious country we call home.

Speaker 2: 54:45

Right? But the

Speaker 3: 54:45

Mustangs are perhaps one of the most important symbols of our freedom. It's an American icon, definitely. And, and, and if we don't protect it, there is something still wild and free. And as the American people and our spirit, I don't think any other animal embodies who we are as a people more than the Mustang.

Speaker: 55:06

I agree. I agree. Wow. This, this has been really educational for me. I love the work that you and the Mustang Heritage Foundation are doing, and I'm gonna become a member. I'm gonna online, I'm gonna do that, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask other people that are listening to do that and to share it with their friends. I often forget to ask people to subscribe to the podcast and the YouTube channel and to follow us on social media, because we do have a social media page. And I also wanna remind people that in Rewilding Together, which is my retreat program and business, is taking a a four day Mustang journey. It's a five day retreat. It's a four day journey on horseback into Nevada from ca from like Southern California below Yosemite. And we're gonna be taking dance and somatic movement, preparing our nervous systems to meet the Mustangs in, in a different way. And I would love for people to come and tell other people about it. You can find that on, in Redwing together, and Mustang Heritage Foundation has a website and places to donate. They do so much good in the world.

Speaker 3: 56:25

I appreciate you so much, and, and I do want everybody to subscribe to what you do. I think that that's very important what you do by being a, a voice in this world for, for these mustangs, it's so important. Is she they, they don't understand. They don't, people don't understand what the importance of this horse and you being a mouthpiece for it. Yeah. It's very important.

Speaker: 56:50

Thank you. Thank you so much and thank you for being on the show today. It's been a pleasure to meet you. Hope we can keep in touch.

Speaker 3: 56:57

I wanna go on this trip with you. I just, I, I wanna make sure I go, that's just, and I was speaking with Danielle Amt, who is our director of program. She goes, oh, tell me more about this program. So when is your trip?

Speaker: 57:10

It is June there's a the first night is at a hot springs called Benton Hot Springs. And there's options on the back end of the trip. Not included in our price, but to go and to stay at the hot springs again, which is a really good idea after four days of riding. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 57:25

I, I love that whole idea. I love the, the what you do. And I think we're both on this, on the same train when it comes to that. I think it'll be a very healing trip. And I wanted to see if I can move heaven and earth so I can go. I think that would

Speaker: 57:38

be, I would love for you to be there. That would be amazing. Absolutely Amazing. Well, thank you.

Speaker 3: 57:44

Thank you for all you do.

Speaker: 57:45

Oh, thank you.