Heal and Stay Healed with Kelly B Haney

Cultivating Post-Traumatic Growth with Two-Time Breast Cancer Survivor Dr. Renee Exelbert

• Kelly B Haney • Season 1 • Episode 14

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Our guest for this episode is Dr. Renee Exelbert — psychologist, elite personal trainer, and two-time breast cancer survivor. In this episode, Dr. Exelbert shares her remarkable story: from treating cancer patients to becoming one herself, to reclaiming her body through a healing mindset, consistent hard work, simple self-care, and unwavering determination.

She discusses how lifestyle changes, visualization techniques, and the power of the mind-body connection all play crucial roles in overcoming health and personal challenges. Dr. Exelbert also offers practical advice on supporting loved ones through illness and maintaining balance in professional and personal life.

As founder of the Metamorphosis Center and author of "Chemo Muscles," Dr. Exelbert is a dynamic example of turning trauma into resilience, personal growth, and purpose. This episode offers valuable wisdom on living authentically and finding our hidden strengths in times of great adversity.

Connect with Dr. Exelbert - 
LinkedIn: @Renee_Exelbert 
Instagram: @dr.renee.exelbert
Twitter X: @ReneeExelbert
Website: Drexelbert.com
Book: Chemo Muscles: Lessons Learned from Being a Psycho-Oncologist and Cancer Patient (Kindle and hardcover versions available on Amazon)

Website: www.kellybhaney.com
Email: info@kellybhaney.com
Instagram: @kellybhaney
Facebook: Kelly B Haney Wellness

Kelly B Haney:

Welcome to the Heal and Stay Healed podcast, where we talk about healing and, more importantly, staying healed from chronic disease and other ailments and issues. We'll cover all the crazy things about health and life the good, the bad, the ugly and the hilarious. My name is Kelly and I'm a survivor and overcomer of severe autoimmune disease, and I can't wait to share with you what I've learned so that you can heal and stay healed too. Thanks for listening and enjoy the show. Welcome back and thank you so much for joining me. Today. We have an extraordinary guest for this episode. She is Dr Renee Exelbert, licensed psychologist, certified elite personal trainer and two-time breast cancer survivor, whose story is truly inspirational. After serving as staff psychologist at the Cancer Center for Kids at NYU's Winthrop Hospital, dr Exelbert received her own cancer diagnosis. This led her to found the Metamorphosis Center for Psychological and Physical Change, where she integrates psychotherapy and exercise focusing on the mind-body connection. Dr Exelbert is the author of Chemo Muscles Lessons Learned from being a Psycho-oncologist and cancer patient. End is a regular expert media contributor. She maintains a private practice in New York, is an adjunct professor at NYU and serves as chair of the Advocacy, Education and Awareness Governance Board for Fight Cancer Global.

Kelly B Haney:

In our conversation today, dr Exelbert shares her remarkable healing journey, having face-down breast cancer, as I mentioned not once, but twice, as well as other tragic experiences. She discusses the lifestyle changes that made a real difference, her insights on the mind-body connection and the impact of a healing mindset. We also explore balancing professional life and motherhood, the importance of self-care, dealing with health anxiety after severe illness and how loved ones can best support those in difficult times, notably the day we recorded. This was a significant milestone in her journey, which she'll tell us all about. Dr Exelbert is someone who's faced terrible adversities and, rather than developing a victim mentality, has used a growth mindset to emerge stronger than ever mentally, emotionally and, as you'll hear, certainly physically. Despite the serious subjects we discuss. This was a truly enjoyable conversation, thanks to the positivity and warmth that Dr Exelbert radiates. I'm thrilled to have had the chance to gain so much wisdom from such an inspirational person through this conversation and to be able to share it with you now. So here we go with Dr Renee Exelbert. Hello and welcome, dr Exelbert.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Hello, I'm so happy to be here.

Kelly B Haney:

Thank you so much for being here. I have been really looking forward to this conversation. There is, I know, just so much that we have to learn from you today. I'm so grateful that you're giving us your time to share your experience and all of your wisdom and insight with us. Before we just dive in, I would love to ask you one of my favorite questions to ask people, which is do you have a favorite quote, short poem or music lyric that has positively impacted you or influenced you that you'd like to share with us?

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I actually, when I think about poetry, I always um yield towards Henry David Thoreau, um, and I love his poem about sucking the marrow out of life. I love that, but in terms of um, a sentiment that I think of a lot. I think it's my own quote and it says we are who we are, not in spite of the things that we've been through, but because of them. And some people don't like that quote because they say I'm not, my experience, I'm not this bad thing that happened to me and we're not. We never are this bad thing that happened to me and we're not. We never are. But I feel like having been through cancer twice, I feel like we are not the same person that we were prior to our journey and that all of the things that happened to us, good or bad, very much change who we are and it's those things that actually create a newer version of ourselves. That, hopefully, is all about post trauma growth. So I like that.

Kelly B Haney:

I love that. I just have to say, as you were speaking, I wrote down post traumatic growth right before you said it. There you go, minds think alike. Yes, and you mentioned Thoreau, who I have several of his books sitting here behind me. He was my favorite philosopher, so I think we have a lot in common. Dr Exelbert, absolutely. Can you start by giving us as much or as little as you want to tell us about your health journey, what you've been through, what you've overcome, what you're still overcoming? Please share with us whatever you feel comfortable sharing.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Yeah. So in 2007, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I was positive at that like literally positive at the time, that I wasn't going to have cancer. My mom always had what do they call it? Highly dense breasts and I kept telling the doctors no, no, no, my mom has these dense breasts. She's always had, you know, concerns. But I did. I was.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I had two really young kids and at the time it was really, really overwhelming because I had to undergo really radical surgery and I I suffered a lot of blows to my personal identity, what I thought was my identity, my sense of beauty, my sense of fragility and, just, you know, being in the world and whether or not I was going to have a shortened life, thinking about my family, my husband. So that was when that was 2007. And I had less than a 5% chance of ever getting breast cancer again because of the surgery that I had, as well as the hormone treatment that I was on. And during that time period when I was recovering, I researched everything about healing and keeping cancer at bay and I became a clean eater and I used to inject sugar like heroin youffy, taffy and sour patch kids. It was my drug of choice and, um, I became a clean eater. I became really, really invested in nutrition and exercise. Um, and during several, several year time period, I became so invested in exercise that I hooked up with a personal trainer who was a bodybuilding pro and she used to do these bodybuilding shows and I started getting ripped and people you know were coming over to me and they're like are you doing a show? I'm like there is no way in the world that I'm going to stand on her heels and a bikini and flex my muscles on stage. That'll never happen. Heels and a bikini and flex my muscles on stage That'll never happen.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And, uh, during this time, I was also writing a book that I was very much not ready to put out to the world because it was so vulnerable and raw. Um, but around the five year mark, which is very significant in the cancer world, um, I thought to myself you know what? It would be a great way to honor regaining control over my body by doing a bodybuilding show. And I became one of these women who stands in stripper heels in their bikini and flexes their muscles. And it was a very empowering experience to me because it was demonstrative to me that I regained control of my body, and during this time period, I was so invested in clean eating and nutrition.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I ended up becoming a certified personal trainer and I opened up a center called the Metamorphosis Center for Psychological and Physical Change, where I integrate psychotherapy and exercise, and I also use this very unique blend of visualizations to, you know, augment somebody's journey. Visualizations are very, very powerful for me, something that I use all of the time in achieving my goals, and so I incorporate that as well with my work. And so that was five years out of cancer. And then I continued to write my book and I underwent so many personality changes um, lots of therapy, lots of uh, working on who I really am outside of, like all of the superficial stuff. And, um, I was really ready to put my book out to the world. Um, and then, all of a sudden, I was re-diagnosed with cancer which was like, came out of the blue.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Um, never, ever would have thought that. Um, when I, when I found this little thing on my breast, I went to both my uh, my um surgeon, and my gynecologist and both of them assured me it's nothing. Um and I, I had a recurrence. They're still not actually sure if it was a recurrence or a new cancer, but it was in the same same spot. Um, and because I was young and because the cancer was aggressive, my, my oncologist took my case to the tumor board and they voted that I should have radiation and chemo, even though my, you know, the tumor was very small and didn't actually meet that criteria.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Um, so I, you know, went through radiation and chemo and I had already been living a very clean life and I had many people who said to me you should have just sat on your butt and ate bonbons, so you don't need to do all this. And there was definitely a part of me that felt really frustrated that I had worked so hard to be healthy and this happened again. But the way that I have learned to look at it is that I really, thank goodness, sailed through chemo and I have been very healthy since, knock on wood. And had I not been taking such good care of myself, who knows what would have happened? And had I not been taking such good care of myself, who knows what have happened? Um, and had I not been so hypervigilant about my health, who knows if I would have even found the second cancer? Uh, so I don't, I don't buy into that. You know, sit on your butt and you know what's going to happen is going to happen.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I firmly believe in epigenetics and that we have the capacity to turn on or off genes that are related to health or disease. So I went through radiation and chemo, and I would literally go through chemo on Monday, be in bed for two days, then go out to Long Island and see my own patients come back and you know, by the weekend I was in the gym and I did this for eight months and, um, I, the whole time I was in the gym as much as I could be, and fortunately I got through that. And, um, I have also had skin cancer twice. Wow, which was after the breast cancers.

Kelly B Haney:

Wow.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I was like, did I grow up in a nuclear power plant or what? And so you know it's sort of it's wild, because sometimes when you've gone through trauma or adversity, it feels like what's next, like you know when's the next shoe going to drop, but I kind of just keep pushing through. There are people who go through so much tragedy and I am extremely blessed. I'm extremely blessed to be here. I'm extremely blessed for all the treatment that I've had and that I'm healthy, and so that has sort of. Today I was telling you earlier is a very significant day for me, because tonight I'm taking my last anti-estrogen pill that I've been on for 15 years. That is so awesome To mark the end of cancer treatment God willing, forever.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I'm doing another bodybuilding show this Saturday, which I'm super excited about. That's my story. Um, I very much believe in mind, body. I very much believe that we have a lot of control over our destiny. Um, and when bad things happen, I feel like we have a lot within us to uh, change the circumstance and do the best that we can to, you know, to get through it and to definitely, as we mentioned before, have post trauma growth.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah, oh, thank you so much. I look at it two different ways. I mean having experienced chronic illness. Certainly we have very different stories in many ways, but very similar things in that I can relate to a lot of what you're saying about the feelings and the mindset and the growth. I think we always, when faced with adversity, especially with our health, we do have two options, and one is to give up and accept it for what it is, and the other is not to give up, not to accept it and to fight it. And before we dig into more questions about your story, I think just focusing on right now, today, first of all, congratulations. This is a huge day.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

It is. It's such a nice connection because it is a very special day for me, so you will always be a part of that. So thank you.

Kelly B Haney:

Oh, thank you. And then the show, and I know you recently competed in a show, not too long ago.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Did. Yeah, it's great. And you know, the other thing that I am actually sort of interested in my own brain right now because one of the significant things that I didn't mention and I'm sort of wondering why I didn't. But because I'm a psychologist, I always have to think about what I did and why I didn't Right. But, like when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I was also pregnant, um, and so I had to have a termination of that pregnancy. So so much.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah, that's. We'll talk about your book in a little bit, but I've read your book and that I mean your story is emotion provoking, we'll just say that. And just how raw and honest you are. And of the whole story, that is definitely one of the more challenging moments to read about the forced termination of what was a very wanted pregnancy. And yeah, again, just going back to you could either be angry and bitter about that or you could use it as an opportunity for growth and just it's remarkable what you've done, that you've obviously taken the latter path and here you are sharing with others and helping others who maybe aren't just dealing with their own physical issues but are dealing with pregnancy loss as well. So just thank you for your vulnerability in your book here today and I know in everything you do you're just very open and honest.

Kelly B Haney:

I want to ask you about the competition. You've got this one coming up on Saturday to mark this huge milestone, but I know you recently had one and you put a post on LinkedIn, which I have to credit my husband with leading me to you, because you connected with him several years ago and he's been telling me just what a remarkable person you are and he showed me that post and you said you know, this is you celebrating taking control, regaining control of your body. Celebrating taking control, regaining control of your body, that you have taken your body back, looking back on everything you've been through and that moment, standing up on that stage. I would just love to hear the emotions you were feeling. What were you feeling during that time?

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Yeah, I, you know, I was sort of I was sort of surprised that the moment wasn't the moment, like I didn't need the moment. I've been actually taking control over my body for years.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

You know, even this next competition, you know, and even taking my last pill tonight. Um, you know, and even taking my last pill tonight. It's all beautiful and it's all wonderful and contributory towards, you know, reclaiming control and everything that I've been through, but those moments where I shut the door on cancer and I took control of my body again happened so long ago and happen on an everyday basis.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

They really do. I think for me it was more about, like you know, the first time I did a competition, it was five years after cancer and I thought that was it Right. I thought, like I'm done, I regained control of my body, right, and then I got cancer again. Um, and I haven't done a show since. So sort of thinking about, and my body has changed. I'm a little bit older than I was 12 years ago and so thinking about, um, all that I've been through, you know, and all that life has brought, and um, and then also having skin cancer twice, like all of this stuff, it's sort of like that's a moment of pride to just be able to like, really push and you know, and get back to like you know, I'm still here, I'm still going to get, I'm. You still haven't gotten me, thank goodness, like I'm, you know, I'm still strong and I'm still here, and so that you know that action is pretty cool.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah that you know that action is pretty cool. Yeah, I think about it a lot, never having experienced cancer, but having experienced chronic illness where, you know, at 19 years old, I was told this is chronic, You're going to, you're going to be dealing with this forever. And here I am today. I've been 13 years free of my disease, but that rings in my head, that voice is really hard to completely expunge. It's hard for me to say I'm cured, I will never deal with this again.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

No, I hear you. I think that you know I have several things to say to that. My gynecologist once said to me cancer is the gift that keeps giving and I live that because I've had so many things that have been resultant from cancer. But I also had a woman who was a three-time cancer survivor say to me you can't think about getting cancer twice, you have to think about it as a chronic illness.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And I remember when she said that, being so angry, I'm not getting cancer again. Right, I was so angry. But you know, even when we shut the door and you know we say we're done, there's so much, uh, emotionally that people who have experienced chronic illness or medical trauma deal with. So even when the door is shut, god willing, right, you always deal with that and you always change your life and your behaviors, hopefully as a result of what you've been through. And so, yes, I hope I never, ever, get cancer. I hope I never have to deal with that. I think that that thought or that fear will always lurk in every person's mind who has had a chronic illness or severe medical trauma. But I try not to live in that space and I tried to live in like I'm going to be the very best that I can be and be the healthiest that I can be. And what can I do in my control, you know, to overcome whatever it is that I have or had.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah, Everything we're talking about involves mindset. So, as a as a professional and then also having your lived experience, can you just talk about the role that mindset plays and the mind body connection, which I know is something that you believe in wholeheartedly?

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I mean well, first of all, like everything that we put inside our bodies, whether it be news or reading or friendships, music, food, alcohol, drugs all of that impacts our functioning and so I try very hard to be mindful of that. And, as I said I, I'm a clean eater and I'm an exercise, I'm a gym rat, um, and so those things are joy to me. I used to go on vacation and like, and if I saw a candy store, I'd be like yeah. And now I go on vacation and I look for the first gym and I salivate over what great machines they have and like I can use that gym and I get very excited, which is probably weird. But so that's one component.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

But in terms of like visualizations and where we focus our thoughts, I am a huge believer in seeing positivity.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

There was a really important study done in 1970 by this man, carl Simonton, where he had cancer patients focus on people with cancer, focus on Pac-Man eating up their tumors and there was a dramatic reduction in the size of tumors for people who did this on a regular basis.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And I very much believe in the power of thought and, in terms of the mind body connection, what that really means is that when we think about things in a positive way, it changes our physicality. It actually changes our cortisol stress levels. It relaxes our body, right. And when we are physically sick, that too, the physical can change the way we think, right. So the mind impacts the body and the body impacts the mind, and so it's always about trying to reduce the stress in our bodies, trying to keep ourselves physically and emotionally healthy, to support our positive mindset and changing our positive to support our positive mindset and changing our positive, changing our mindset to be positive in order to change our inner body, our, you know, our, our physical experience, and to understand that there's a great interplay between those two and that if you're physically healthy and eating well and believing that you're going to be strong and healthy, that's where you're sending your energy, and I'm a huge advocate of that. I think that everything we do is connected.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah, I'm so happy to hear you talk about visualization. That's definitely been one of my favorite tools in the healing toolbox. Just how powerful it is.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Do you have a special visualization for yourself?

Kelly B Haney:

Yes. So for a long time after being ill, especially after my year of my terrible flare, I dealt with a lot of health anxiety. So you know, old school call it hypochondria just fear that something's wrong and that I'll find myself back in that place, which I'm sure you can relate to dealing with. So my favorite visualization that my wonderful therapist taught me she said visualize God's healing light, like the healing light of the energy. Just enter from the top of your head and just slowly work its way down your entire body and, as it goes, say healing energy, healing, all is right, all is well. Just all the way down, just repeating these positive affirmations to yourself all the way down and without fail. Once I finished that visualization my anxiety might not be completely gone, but it at least is significantly better. But I realized after a time the point is not to make myself feel better in the moment. The point is to actually have my body line up with my mind that if there is something wrong in that moment I'm helping myself heal.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Yeah, absolutely. It's so powerful. And when you speak to people who are experiencing like chronic health anxiety or are going through a medical trauma and their brain is sort of wired to just see it as something terrible or they're going to get sick again, or you know, I have a woman that I see who says, well, you know, it's going to come back, Right. And I'm like I cannot live in that space, Like I just cannot do that because why, like, where you know they, there's a saying that says when, where the mind goes, the body will follow.

Kelly B Haney:

Right.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

So it's like I'm not putting my my mind in in the garbage. Can you know? I'm going to put my mind in the most beautiful place and try and have my body follow that.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah, I love to use the example of if somebody says the word lice and suddenly your head might start itching. You know, suddenly you've got a little bit of itching going in, and that just to me. You know, suddenly you've got a little bit of itching going in, and that just to me, demonstrates how powerful that connection is. Where somebody says a word and you physically feel it in your body. It's just incredible so to to take it from that direction and turn it around, flip it on its head and use it for good, for healing. It's beautiful that we do have that strong connection because it yeah right, your head's itching now, right, it is powerful.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I mean it is you know, you can. You can plant a thought in your head and completely change your, your day, your experience, your luck, everything you know by what you tell yourself.

Kelly B Haney:

So yeah, can we talk about your book, sure? So you published your book Chemo Muscles Lessons Learned from being a Psycho-Oncologist and Cancer Patient. I know you even in the book and today you alluded to. For a long time your story was very personal and very private to you and you did not, understandably. You were not ready. You did not want to be open and vulnerable and obviously that's changed over the years. You're very open and vulnerable.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I'm the poster child for raw vulnerability.

Kelly B Haney:

Yes, you sure are. When did that change take place and why did it become important for you to write that book and share your story?

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Yeah. So first of all, the reason that it's lessons learned from being a psycho-oncologist. I was a psychologist in a pediatric cancer center for six years, so I was the psychologist who worked with all of the children diagnosed with cancer. I would speak to their families who are really worried about them dying, and that was my professional job for years. And after about six years I started to experience so much PTSD, literally from so much trauma and death and loss that.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I said enough cancer, um, even though it was the most beautiful work I've ever done, really, truly exceptional work I've ever done Really, truly exceptional.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And I said I'm going to leave the cancer center too much cancer and I left in April and I was diagnosed in July. So that's where the book comes from. I learned a lot professionally about how healthcare providers manage chronic illness and how they work with their clients, you know, with their patients. And then I was on the flip side and I felt like there was a lot of learning that needed to take place, because healthcare providers miss a lot and I saw some of it as a healthcare provider, but a lot of it I understood in a highly different way when I was a patient. I also learned a lot of things from the kids that I used to see, so I felt like that was a really important arena to discuss. So I started writing the book and that was that was, writing is a cathartic experience for me and I started writing it for my own healing and I always intended it to be a book experience for me. And I started writing it for my own healing and I always intended it to be a book.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

But, uh, the journey from being extremely private and seeing myself as fragile and vulnerable and sick and weak and damaged, and all these things changed over several years. Number one, through therapy, um. Number two, through really becoming physically empowered, which I think translates to emotional empowerment, um, and changing. You know, I was just changing and I definitely was not the same person when I started that book and when I ended that book and and I wrote in the last chapter whether that's because I naturally changed due to life, life events, being a mommy, time, growing up, therapy, or if it's because it was going through cancer, post-trauma growth.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

It brings me back to my quote, which is we are who we are, not in spite of the things that we go through, but because of them. Right, I eventually became this person who was very comfortable with who I was, uh, because of what I went through, and I started to learn to see myself in a a way that you know was able to, um, take all of these aspects of my life and put them out to the world, able to take all these aspects of my life and put them out to the world, and I also. One of the things that I also feel is that it's very, very helpful when you're going through any kind of trauma, to have somebody who's who can help you through it, and so I felt like my book. If I could do that for somebody else, that would be a win.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah, I found that by taking this, these terrible things that happen, and and flipping them around and using them for good, it just, it brings meaning, meaning to it all.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

A hundred percent and I don't think that everybody has that, and I think that it's such a missed opportunity. You know, like, everyone takes different things from their life experiences, but, um and I'm not the president of like, oh, I took so much growth from my life experience, but I feel like when you go through things in life, it presents an opportunity for you to either, you know, be sad and depressed and and poor me, or to really, you know, figure out poor me, or to really, you know, figure out, you know what happened and make meaning from it. I don't believe that bad things happen for a reason. I I do not ascribe to that belief at all, but I, I I definitely think that once something bad has happened, it's our job to figure out what we can do with it.

Kelly B Haney:

You, know, yeah, that's beautiful. I want to ask you, woman to woman, mother to mother.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Yes.

Kelly B Haney:

You are a practicing psychologist, you're a professor, you're an author, you're a media contributor, you're a public speaker, you're a personal trainer. You're a competitive speaker. You're a personal trainer. You're a competitive bodybuilder, you volunteer. Not to mention you're a mother and a wife. How do you do it all? How do you manage wearing so many different hats?

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Yeah, my children are older now, uh, so my time uh is definitely different now than when they were younger, uh, and I also think that that's an evolving experience that needs to be sort of. You know, that's important to acknowledge. Um, I've always been this way, before cancer, during cancer, after. I have always been, um, focused, um, I think that, and I've always been determined and I believe that life is always about like accomplishing goals and growing. I think that's something that's very different for me is that when I first was diagnosed with cancer, many of the goals that I set were about being a perfectionist and were about, you know, other people, and that dramatically dramatic. I would say that that's probably the biggest thing that changed for me.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Um, if I had to sort of say one thing, because that's so dramatically changed now everything that I do is about me, um, and nothing that I do is to you know, to prove myself, um, so I think that I take on things that are very meaningful to me and that propels me towards doing them, because it's pure joy, it's, it's what I love, uh, it's not coming from a place of burden or, you know, responsibility or or proving myself to other people. So I think that that enables me to really love what I do. So like if I geek out and sit down and write. You know which a lot of people might be like how do you do that? Or you know, to me that's like a palette for just writing what I'm feeling, and it's so wonderful. Or if I go to the gym and I'm working towards this competition and it's grueling at times. It's not like to stand on stage and show my body and it's like every day showing up consistency, know, living your life in alignment with these goals. That's just like. You know, I'm here, I'm blessed, um, and I want to live every day, you know, to the fullest.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Um, and that doesn't mean that I don't take like time to just sit on the couch and binge, watch, you know, whatever, because I I've learned that that's really important too. I used to not do that when I was more of a perfectionist. I used to be like go, go, go, what's next? Now I'm like I don't feel like doing anything. I want to sit down and and I listened to myself a lot more, and I think that, um, like I said, I'm not sure if it's because I went through cancer. I'm not sure if it's because I grew up. I'm not sure if it's because I, you know, went through therapy. I don't know why. It's a culmination of all those things, but the things that I do I really enjoy and I love and you know they're all part of me putting out to the world. You know, as long as I'm here, keep going and keep doing, and once my competition's over, I have another more things on my bucket list. You know my to grow list.

Kelly B Haney:

I love that your to grow list. As a recovering perfectionist myself, that is an amazing reframe that I'm going to borrow from you. Not a to do list, a to-grow list.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I think that there are a lot of perfectionists in the world, and I think that it's very hard for children to grow up with so much pressure and, you know, so many people see who they are based on their accomplishments and what they do, and especially with social media, I feel like that's really heightened and exacerbated in such a negative way, and so I think it's really important for people to learn to figure out their own voice and pay attention to themselves and what brings them joy, because ultimately, the you know, success isn't financial. Success is like being a happy person in the world. It's like what makes you light up. You know and you do that.

Kelly B Haney:

Well, I want to read a little excerpt from your book. In terms of self-care and you said I was buying hook line and sinker into the belief that our bodies and minds are connected the more I exercised, the more I wanted to exercise, the stronger I felt, the healthier I felt. The more care I exerted with the foods I ingested, the more I felt in control of my body. With the foods I ingested, the more I felt in control of my body. This developed a level of self-care that I had not possessed before cancer. I just thought you worded that so beautiful.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And it made me like that.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah, that was really good, good job. It just made me wonder. You know clearly you value self-care and, in the obvious ways that you've already mentioned, exercise and what you put into your body. Do you have other self-care practices that you've developed over the years and, in your experience, what has been very helpful?

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I. I think self-care is so important and, as you mentioned earlier, I am a professor and I always talk to my students who are aspiring therapists about this. Self-care does not have to be something that you make time for. Self-care is a moment to moment experience in our days and for there is small exercises such as sitting and just breathing, or taking a body scan throughout the day and sort of figuring out where I'm holding stress or pressure. And even a big one is like putting my hands on my heart and rubbing, and like giving myself love or giving myself compassion, right, like if the world feels heavy or experiences feel hard. It's like just giving myself love.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

But I definitely notice the mindfulness aspect of self-care. For me is like going outside and using my five senses, you know, seeing the trees, feeling the wind on my face or the sun, smelling the air. Right when I eat. I'm not shoving down my food, I'm literally thinking about like, how does this taste? And I and I'm a big freak when it comes to eating because I'm like this broccoli that I'm eating, you know, has phytochemicals in it that are actually making me healthy and reducing my breast cancer, you know or this green tea, like when I'm eating. I don't become obsessive about it, but when I'm certainly eating like healthy foods, I am thinking you are taking care of yourself right now.

Kelly B Haney:

And when.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I'm exercising, it's a very when I'm exercising I'm in like a different place, like I, you know, even prepping for my competition.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I have certain exercises that I do where my mind is so off in a visual space, like there's something called like a reverse cable, where you kind of are working your back muscles and you take two cable machines and you pull them and for me I am seeing myself as super girl, literally with a cape on my back, and I am like over and I'm thinking about the things that I have to get through and I'm like literally seeing myself like flying through them.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

To me that's a very mind body connection and that's the kind of work that I do at my center. But when I'm doing pushups I'm not just going down on the floor and pushing up. Like when I'm doing pushups I go down on the floor and I think about all the garbage that I've been through or all the junk in the world or, but mostly, the struggles that I've been through. And then when I push up, I think like I am literally pushing myself up, I'm holding myself Right, and that's what pushups are to me. And so when I'm doing those things, it's, it is self-care, it's very much reinforcing, you know, the mind and the body together and taking care of myself moment to moment.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

But I would say that the biggest thing is like the day to day, the moment to moments, throughout the day.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

When I come home from work, whether I have a 20 minute commute or an hour and a half commute I either shut off music entirely or I listened to spa music and the entire time I'm just breathing and I'm deescalating and I'm letting go of anybody else's stuff that I heard throughout the day, so that by the time I walk into my house I am clean of it.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And I also have a ritual that someone, someone, taught me years ago that you should have a ritual between, like, work and personal life. And my ritual is the moment I walk in the house, before I touch anybody, see anybody, I wash my hands, ridding myself of everybody else's problems, and then I get into my cozy sweats and then I'm mommy and I'm, you know, and I can do anything but like. Not until then, not until I've, like, had that separation. So all of those things are self-care for me and they're so important, plus the bubble baths, massages whenever I can, um walking outside nature and identifying the things that light you up or make you healthy friendships, um being around healthy people. You know people who light you up, and for me, turning on Joni Mitchell and baking for hours is like the greatest.

Kelly B Haney:

I love it, and so much of what you said is just so, just simple, these little things that I'll come back to you thinking about it, prioritizing it. It doesn't have to be a day at the spa Right To be self-care.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Right, I think that's a problem that everyone thinks self-care has to be. You know, take an hour to go to the gym or it doesn't has to be. You know, take an hour to go to the gym or it doesn't have to be. Like you can do leg lifts when you're brushing your teeth, or calf raises when you're in the deli line. You don't have to make it a grand gesture, and studies show us that the grand gestures, you know, that's why January 1st there's 100 people in the gym and January 30th there are 20. Right, it's like grand gestures don't work. It has to be small, sustainable changes.

Kelly B Haney:

One thing that kept coming up during your book that I could relate to, because I'd experienced this myself. Several of the physicians that you encountered over the course of your journey we alluded to it earlier with people can say things that have a lasting impact, and I know that you encountered some I don't know if callousness is the right word unhelpful interactions with physicians. Can you just talk a little bit about that and just the power of our words Along those same lines when you were sick? I would love to hear from friends and family and people in your life what was helpful and what was not helpful.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Yeah, so I mean two very big questions. I had so many health care professionals who were very damaging. Conversely, I had some who were incredibly kind and beautiful and those people made as much of a difference as the negative people. When I was first diagnosed literally first diagnosed my gynecologist at the time was the person to call me and tell me that I was diagnosed with cancer and at the same time, I wasn't positive, I was pregnant and I was waiting for a call from a radiologist to tell me what my biopsy revealed. And my gynecologist called and he said to me what is this? I understand you have cancer and you're pregnant, cardiologist, and I don't know if I'm pregnant yet. I think I am. And he said you are pregnant and you do have cancer.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And within a breath, within a breath said I gave you a prescription for a mammogram a year ago. Why didn't you go? And I was like what I am just hearing, that I have cancer and I'm pregnant. Like I was driving, like I couldn't even fathom. And here I was, 37 years old, right, and it's like I have this gynecologist blasting me for why I didn't go for a mammogram a year earlier, when recommendations weren't until age 40. And the only reason that somebody would ever go earlier is if they had a significant family history, which I had none. And the only reason that he gave me a prescription a year earlier was because I was thinking maybe I'll get pregnant and if I do get pregnant, then I'd like to have my first mammogram earlier, because then I'll be breastfeeding. I was just planning and so hearing that in the context of like, life altering news was so devastating and something I'll never forget, um, and I think that that experience really shaped, um, this idea in me about, like, really advocating for ourselves as patients.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I had so many experiences, so many, and many negative, but also some really positive, and I think that the positive ones can be so they're so small sometimes, but they can make such a difference. I remember when I was at the first surgeon's office and I, you know, and I was learning like about life altering surgery and I was so young and I I felt like, you know, my world was ending and he was also callous. I remember some older woman walked in and she just saw, like me, so upset with my husband, and she said, honey, you don't worry, you'll be all right. And like I, just, it was so, you know, it was just such a nice thing. My plastic surgeon, like the kindest man, like I just had some people, my my oncologist, you know, when I went on Tamoxifen I said, making me emotional, when I went on Tamoxifen I remember I said to him I heard that Tamoxifen makes you gain a lot of weight, is that true? And he said, renee, exercise the hell out of it. You know, I'm like just there are just certain things that, like people can do to change your experience.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And so family and friends. I had my own family, um, you know, my husband, my girls, like couldn't have been more supportive when I was first diagnosed. My kids were, my two daughters were very young. So they, you know, they didn't, they just knew I was having surgery when I had cancer the second time they were older and very loving, going through chemo and radiation, very supportive, and of course that shaped their lives as well and how they see the world and health and sickness and all that. Um, my husband, a rock through everything. Um, friends, I think that one of the things that I learned, uh, is that I, the first time I had cancer, was not someone who ever asked for help because I was perfectionist and so I was like I've got this, I don't want to talk about it, I can handle it. Don't tell other people what's going on with me. It's none of their business, which, as we know, lends itself to not getting much support.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Right and so that was something that I learned about myself going through the years. So second time I had cancer I was like sure I'll welcome the meal train that you drop food off of my house, sure you know you can take my kids to school. Like I was in a different space and I also was in a different place to ask for help. I remember earlier on really struggling the first time, really struggling with being angry at people because they didn't treat me the way that I wanted to be treated and I was so conflicted about how I wanted to be treated because I wanted to be strong and I didn't want anyone to think that I was weak, but if they didn't call, I was angry and so much right. And I think that's important to know how to ask for help. And then I think, just from like a basic human level, people are very well intentioned but they can say lose your breasts Right. Or like as soon as they met me, they would just like stare and um, I had like that was the first question. They wanted to know Um, which I found like you know, this is what you're going to reduce me to Like it was very overwhelming.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I had people often say to me. Oh, I have a friend who died of cancer, or my grandmother had cancer, and I was like this is not helpful. Had people give me their you know, expert medical opinion who were not remotely in the medical field, like, well, when you have chemo, this might happen to your fertility or you know, and I was like this stuff is not helpful. And so I think the thing that is always helpful is to ask somebody what they need from you and to not just say I'm there when I'm here. If you need me, because people don't want to, you know, take you up on it, because they already feel like a burden or they're struggling with their own whatever right now.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

And so to say, can I take your kids to school on Wednesday? Can I cook dinner for you on Friday? Can I drive you to chemo? Can I? You know how can I help? What can I drop off for you? You know, I think that that's very helpful. Um, and telling somebody about relatives who died from cancer or went through a worst case scenario is not helpful. Um, comparing, I had people compare, people who didn't really know what was going on with me. Oh, you have it so much easier. This person had X.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Y and Z and I'm like I'm not going to compete about who has a worse cancer. Trust me, we're all losers here.

Kelly B Haney:

That's really helpful. That's a good takeaway in the sense that when you say'm here if you need me, it almost sounds like perfunctory, like this is what I'm supposed to say, but by saying something very specific like can I take your kids to school, can I bring you dinner, that sounds like that's what got through to you, as not just yeah, this is actually going to be helpful, but also this is genuine.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Right. And I think the other thing is that your expectation that certain people will show up sometimes is matched with their showing up and sometimes it's not. I remember being very surprised by people that I never thought would show up. You know, I remember some woman drove like an hour and a half and hadn't made me like mashed potatoes and chicken and all and just drove to my house to drop it off, Right. And then other people that you expect to be there who flake out, you know. So really surprising.

Kelly B Haney:

Yeah, so, as we start to wrap up, we've covered so much today. There is one final question, a very important question, that I am very eager to ask you. In your center, and as a cancer survivor, you obviously have had a lot of hands-on experience dealing with people who are sick and, of course, going back to what you did years ago in working with the families of children with cancer, so you've seen a lot, to say the least. What would you say when you break it down? What are the most significant ingredients in the recipe of success for those who are truly seeking to transform their health, transform their lives and to truly heal?

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I think so much of that comes back to your why right? I know that's sort of cliche, that people say that a lot, but it's very much about like who you are, what you want, how you want to live your life right, and it's like what do you want?

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

right Like, if you want to live your life Right, and it's like what, what do you want? Right, like, if you want to be healthy, what do you need to do to be healthy? Right, re-examining, like, your priorities, um, re-examining all of it. You know your relationships, the people that you spend time with, the music that you listen to, the self-care practices, the music that you listen to, the self-care practices, even your clients. You know, like all of it, like, um, and so I think that the ingredients are like to real. For me, they were really to like, become much more mindful about the things that I'm doing in my life. I I don't spend time with people who I don't want to spend time with. When I get a phone call from somebody who I know is going to dump on me, even if I love them, I've learned to say I can speak to you for 10 minutes and then I have to go, like, being more protective of my own personal boundaries, so I'm not too overwhelmed own personal boundaries, so I'm not too overwhelmed, um, really listening to yourself about, like, what you need, versus. I think it's so much about being authentic, figuring out what you need versus like what other people need, trying to listen to your inner voice more. Um, that's like the most simplistic way I can say, but like living your life for you and that's a big thing for me.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Like you know, I work with a lot of adolescents and I'm constantly talking to them about, like, why it's so important for them to get the approval of this person or that person or social media Right. When my daughters come out of the dressing room and ask me what I think of you know their hoochie mama shirt or whatever I'm like, why do you care what I think I'm like? And they get so annoyed with me. But I'm like you know, I'm a mom Like I may be wearing like mom jeans and be like the most uncool person in the world and you want my opinion right? Like, why is somebody else's opinion of you more important than your opinion of you? Right? Like, it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what you think you know. Live, live your life. You only go around once, as far as I know, and it's not about making other people happy. It's about, like, doing what feels right for you and the more you are tapped into that, it doesn't matter what everyone else is thinking, it just doesn't matter.

Kelly B Haney:

Dr Axelbert, you're such an incredible special person.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

I'm so grateful, kelly you're making me cry multiple times today. It was such a joy to meet you. I definitely know that we are kindred spirits.

Kelly B Haney:

You're amazing, thank you. And speaking of tearing up, I don't know if you could tell, but I think about a dozen times I almost had to reach for these tissues because I know firsthand just how powerful it is to hear someone else's story and to just be able to take from it and apply it to. Whatever you've been through, whatever pain you've been through, it's always so helpful to know that you're not alone in this world and in past suffering or current sufferings. I thank you so much for all the people that are going to hear this and be helped by what you said today.

Dr. Renee Exelbert:

Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Kelly.

Kelly B Haney:

I hope you enjoyed hearing that conversation with Dr Renee as much as I enjoyed having it. She is such a delight and such a great example to all of us of turning adversity into purpose and power. If you are interested in learning more about Dr Exelbert or her work at the Metamorphosis Center, go to her website, drexelbertcom. That's D-R-E-X-E-L-B-E-R-T dot com. You can also find information on where to get her awesome book Chemo Muscles there on the site as well, and you can connect with me at kellybhehaneycom or at kellybhehaney on Instagram. And if you received value from this episode, I would greatly appreciate it if you would take a moment to subscribe to the show, download the episodes, rate and review and, of course, please share it with anyone who you think may find value in it as well. Friends, I am honored to walk alongside of you as we heal and stay healed together. You.