PCOS and the Emotional Landscape: A Candid Conversation on PCOS Mental Health, Depression, And the Stages of Grief

Navigating the intricacies of PCOS and mental health is a dance I've come to know all too well. In this episode, we'll go through the maze of emotions that accompany a chronic condition like PCOS, from grappling with the stages of grief post-diagnosis to the realities of mental health concerns with depression and anxiety when living with PCOS. I discuss my own path, marked by personal losses and triumphs, to illuminate the powerful link between our physical health and our mental well-being, and how the food we eat plays a critical role in this delicate balance.  We'll also discuss some strategies to help with our mental health in PCOS. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:38

Welcome back to an Amber a Day, the Functional Nutrition Podcast. I'm your host, amber Fisher, and I'm excited about today's topic. You may also notice that it sounds a little bit different today. There is a reason for that and the reason is that I finally got a new microphone. Yay, thanks to you guys for listening and for listening through the ads that randomly pop up on the podcast from time to time. I have been able to get us a new mic so you can more clearly hear my beautiful voice.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Now, in the spirit of today's podcast, which is going to be about PCOS and mental health and the grieving process of chronic illness and anxiety, I'm going to share some of my personal experiences with that stuff with you guys today as well. But in the spirit of that, the recovering perfectionist in me has not been treated kindly by the universe the last 24 hours. I don't know what it is, is Mercury retrograde or something but I've been putting off getting this microphone set up for two weeks since I bought it. Of course, I bought it all excited and then when I got here, I was super overwhelmed like, oh no, no, I have to actually set it up. I got one of those cute boom arms and I'm going to have this whole little set up in my office, where it's going to be a little studio, I kind of like how I used to do my podcast. If you've ever checked out my YouTube, shout out to my YouTube. I'm actually going to be making more long form videos for YouTube this year. So if you're not subscribed already, subscribe it up, because I'm going to have some good stuff on there that you won't see other places. If you go on my YouTube, a lot of my videos that are on there currently are old podcast videos and stuff from when I actually did record in the studio and I went through the time to splice the audio and all this stuff.

Speaker 1: 2:31

But now I'm getting more savvy, I'm getting more technologically advanced and, yeah, I figured out how to get this thing set up. But when I went to go open up the boom arm and get it all ready to record for today, the boom arm apparently arrived broken, so I couldn't do that. So I'm like okay. My first thought was, oh great, now I can't record. And you guys know I have a four year old, so my time to record is quite limited. So I'm like, great, I can't record. And then I thought you know what, but it doesn't have to be perfect. Like, maybe I just record the audio, maybe I just use the new mic on a stand, record the audio and we get a podcast up here, an important podcast that I'm excited to talk about, one that I already have all my notes for and everything. So that's what I decided to do. So this is like a little preview of what the new sound is going to be.

Speaker 1: 3:27

Anyway, we're here, I wanted to talk about this stuff and I think it's important and it's a really interesting topic for me, actually, because I've lived a lot of it personally. So now, before we do that, I have some stuff I want to share about related to the podcast, essentially my goals for this year for the podcast, because I'm going to be changing things up a little bit and you know you may or may not like that. So I want to share so that you'll be aware. But I know, personally, when I listen to podcasts, my favorite thing is just like a podcast where I feel like I kind of like know the host, I'm like friends with her and I listen to her while I clean and it's just really nice to have the voice of somebody in the background, basically, and what kind of inspired me to sort of make it official was, if you guys are on TikTok, I think her name is Risa Tisa. She's sharing the who the F Did I Marry series and it's like 50 parts and they're all like 10 minutes long, of her story of this pathologically lying person that she married. And it's very fascinating, right. But she wasn't trying to give it to you in sound bites, she wasn't trying to do it in 60 seconds or less, and she was just talking the way she talks, like the way she would talk to a friend, telling her story, and that was so refreshing, honestly, because the ups and downs of just being a content creator I really hate that title, but I guess that's what I am in a lot of ways, anyway the ups and downs of that and trying to adjust to what these algorithms are wanting and all that. It gets exhausting sometimes and I'm kind of sick of it. I'm kind of sick of doing that, so I'm just not going to do it anymore. Peace, anyway. So here we are and we're just going to this podcast. I think is a good introduction to that style, because I've got some notes, I've got some facts to share, but I also have personal experience in this and really vulnerable experience here, so I want to share that with you so that hopefully it will help you, it'll inspire you.

Speaker 1: 5:49

Okay, let's talk about PCOS and mental health. So I mean, why is this even a topic in the first place, right? Do those two things even connect? I think a lot of times people think that the brain and the body are kind of two different areas, right? So, like, our mental health is separate from our physical health, but in actuality they are very much connected and they feed each other, and so a person who has mental health issues may also have more physical issues and vice versa. And in a lot of ways the overlap is so much that it can be hard to tell.

Speaker 1: 6:25

And if you look at people in different career paths, you'll see that they tend to have a bias towards their own. So, like, for a long time, my own personal career path went the route of nutrition. I almost became a therapist that's a story for another time but I was like set to go to get my master's degree in social work and I was going to become a counselor, and then I just like decided to switch and go for nutrition, because that's what I really wanted to do and anyway, if you talk to me 10 years ago, I very much had the opinion and that, like depression and mental health issues were very much a reaction to the brain of a physical issue. So there are a lot of different things which we'll talk about, that can impact mental health, and inflammation being a big one, insulin resistance being one, adrenal dysfunction being one, all things that we deal with with PCOS right. And so what I noticed is that, working with people who also had diagnosis of mental health issues, particularly like depression and anxiety, their depression and anxiety would get better, particularly their depression would really really improve when they worked on their nutrition and I came to this sort of conclusion that, like the majority of people diagnosed with depression, if they would just change the way that they ate, change their lifestyle a bit, they probably wouldn't need, you know, they wouldn't be so down and depressed and so, okay, yes, I know I don't have that opinion 100% anymore, but this was back before I dealt with any depression issues myself.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Back then I really really wholeheartedly kind of believed that, like most mental health stuff was physical, was nutrition based, and I still do believe that it plays a huge, huge role and may be the cause for, like, a significant amount of people diagnosed with depression, and I think there's evidence to support that if you look at the inflammation depression connection. But that said, if you talk to mental health therapists, they're going to tell you the opposite, right, and you're going to be like your depression is it's chemical imbalance in the brain or whatever you know, or it's trauma related. And if you work on those things, if you work on the mental health aspect right, then you may make better choices with your nutrition. And I know a lot of really wonderful therapists. A lot of my friends are therapists.

Speaker 1: 9:02

When I've talked to them particularly about this topic, what I hear a lot is you know that they acknowledge that there is absolutely a connection between diet and mental health, but they also believe that you know it's mostly a mental health issue. That then bleeds into like if they were to change their diet, it would. It would help, but it wouldn't like take away the underlying issue, and there may be truth to that as well for a lot of people. So the truth, as with anything I really believe, lies somewhere in the middle. There's a gray area there. I think both things are actually like critical to human happiness and success. You know, knowing how to navigate mental health, working on resolving patterns associated with trauma, but then also really working on diet and nutrition, like you kind of can't, you can't get 100% of the way there without both of them. But I digress.

Speaker 1: 10:03

The reason that this is interesting to talk to in the context of PCOS is because, like I said, so many of the physical issues that we deal with are kind of precursors to depression, and we actually do know that those with PCOS are more likely to deal with mental health issues. So I pulled up several studies here talking about this and so there's definitely a connection between more incidences of depression in particular, but also anxiety, bipolar disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder in PCOS. And you know there's a lot of thought about like where that might come from or why that might be, and what I see is like kind of the dichotomy there again of those two fields, like sort of arguing with each other about whose field is more important, when at the end of the day it's probably both right, but nevertheless it's important because it does impact PCOS and it is something that a lot of us are dealing with and struggling with. So if you have some depression, some anxiety, any of that stuff that you are dealing with managing. However you are managing it, you are not alone, for sure, and you know life has a way especially with me fun of giving me first hand experience for things that I have opinions about.

Speaker 1: 11:34

So I was born as a person who likes to have an opinion and I do tend to form them quite regularly, and then sometimes it takes me some lived experience to sort of change my opinion or soften my opinion, and I think that's why my default now is to be very much like to each his own. This can be true and that can be true. Life is about gray areas, et cetera, et cetera, because I've experienced so much of that sort of I believe this is true about nutrition, and then some studies come out. I'm like oops, I was wrong, or I realize how connected my opinions about nutrition were to my stuff I went through as a child or like my insecurities or you know, all that kind of stuff. So definitely I've had some lived experience with this topic that I'm going to share with you guys, and it has softened my opinion about mental health and treating mental health, which is probably good. It probably needed to happen, although I would have loved for it to happen without me actually having to deal with some of this stuff.

Speaker 1: 12:41

But anyway, you know there's a hormonal aspect to PCOS as well that can alter the signaling of neurotransmitters. So it's not necessarily that all the depression, anxiety and whatever that we're dealing with PCOS is particularly because either we eat badly or it's because we just naturally have these higher levels of insulin or inflammation or whatever. It can also be that the hormone imbalances that we're dealing with too much estrogen or too many androgens can alter the chemistry of the brain, the neurotransmitters, and then there could also be a feedback loop there where it's like, because we you know a lot of us are like low dopamine, right, we may deal more with things like ADHD and that may make it more difficult for us to stick to a routine, for us to balance the needs of a chronic health condition. As far as nutrition goes, like meal prepping, meal planning, actually cooking, actually eating the food that we cooked, eating leftovers, like sensory issues with the way that things feel and taste in the mouth, like all of these things are things that I've seen a lot of struggle with with my personal clientele and I think are connected to changes in the brain chemistry in PCOS, whether inborn, like something that you're born with and it sort of makes it harder to do those things, or because you don't do those things. It continues to make it harder to do those things and it messes with brain chemistry more, like I mean there's a feedback loop, right. So it could be both, it could be all, it could be both, it could be one or the other. So we do know that those with PCOS deal with a lot more mental health issues than the population at large. That's a fact that you're not going to see anybody arguing about. But why? Why? So we've talked about some things already, right, hormones, and.

Speaker 1: 14:37

But I want to go a little bit deeper on some of the things that I think make the biggest difference. And then I think that we have the most maybe control or power over, because, like, at the end of the day, a lot of the information about PCOS that's out there is a little, I mean, it's kind of defeating. It's like, okay, you have this, these are your problems, like, and this is why you're so miserable. Bye, you know. And you're kind of like, okay, so, but like, how do I fix it? Like, what do I do and it's hard. I mean, I'll be honest with you, being on the other side of that topic, getting those questions like okay, well, I know I have insulin resistance, how do I fix it? Like I get that comment. You would not believe how much I get that comment on like TikTok or whatever. How do I fix it? And I'm like, babe, I would love to tell you how to fix it in 30 seconds or less, but it doesn't work that way. I wish it did If I had like a miracle cure for PCOS or like a supplement, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 15:36

I see some of these other like we would call it. I don't know I I call them PCOS influencers, but I see them. They're like Hawken. You know they've got their own supplement lines or they they're like they're Hawken, ova, zatala or whatever, as like it's like this miracle cure, and I'm just like, wow, you know, I wish I believed that strongly in anything so that I could make some money.

Speaker 1: 15:59

But the reality is that it's just not that simple. That doesn't mean that there's nothing we can do, though that doesn't mean that there aren't solutions. It's just that I can't explain them to you in half an hour, even Like I can't explain them to you in a one hour podcast, but I can do a better job of explaining that than I can in a soundbite. So there are a few things that I feel like we have some control and power over, and so that's where I want to focus our attention, because the worst thing is to feel defeated, to feel like you have no hope, to feel like there's nothing you can change. But if you know that there are some things that you can actually do, then you can put your effort towards that and you can put your energy towards that. And, as my old mentor used to say, energy goes where energy flows, and I really believe that. I think whatever you kind of focus on, it comes to fruition. So if you focus on everything that's wrong and how unfair it is, then you'll notice everything that's wrong and how unfair it is, or you can focus on the things that you can actually do to change and to improve and to feel better. So let's talk about some of those things.

Speaker 1: 17:10

So the first thing I think is more of a mental health sort of thing rather than a nutrition thing, and it's that you have to understand what happens when you are diagnosed with a chronic health condition, like what happens mentally to you. So a lot of us don't acknowledge that being diagnosed with PCOS even though it's very common, even though it's not life threatening, it's not cancer, it's not whatever but being diagnosed with PCOS it's a big deal and it creates a. There's an adjustment that has to happen in your brain. There's an adjustment that has to happen in your body. It's a life sentence in a lot of ways and a lot of us are diagnosed and then we sort of just move on with our lives and we kind of try to forget about it. And I think that's where a lot of the problems with PCOS kind of come into play.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Because if you continue to live like you're, just like anyone else and everything's totally normal, then you're going to experience more of the side effects and symptoms of PCOS. You just are because you're not like everyone else. You can't eat like everyone else. There's a commitment that has to happen with how you treat your body that's different from other people and that really sucks At the end of the day. Who wants to do that? I just want to go eat at Chick-fil-A and then I want to. I don't know. I want to exercise when I feel like it, but not like out of some sort of need. Nobody wants to do, nobody wants to have to eat a certain amount of protein with everything they eat. It's not fun, and that's not to say that you 100% have to do it like every single second of every day, of every meal for the rest of your life. But you do kind of have to follow at least an 80, 20 rule with this stuff or else you're going to experience more of the side effects of your PCOS kind of the symptoms coming up.

Speaker 1: 19:17

So what I'm getting at here is that being diagnosed with PCOS requires us to go through a grieving process. I talked about this a bit on I think it's called the Naked Wellness podcast, kj Wellness. I talked about this pretty recently on there. But being diagnosed with PCOS, you have to go through a grieving process and you have to let yourself do that. Now I know some of you may be like yeah, real, like bet, I'm already in the main stages of grief, I'm in the anger phase, whatever. But some of you are probably thinking like I'm being a little bit dramatic, and I know I was like that too. I mean, when I got diagnosed I was more like OK, this is a practical thing Like, yeah, I've always known I'm different, so here at least I have a name for it and now I can figure out what to do about it.

Speaker 1: 20:11

But the reality is that, because PCOS does impact your mental health as well as your physical health, there's a difficulty with that that we need to acknowledge. I mean, there's a risk of infertility that's higher. I certainly dealt with a lot of infertility. That's very demoralizing. And then there's higher risks of chronic health conditions in older age diabetes, heart disease, all these kinds of things that can make people feel scared, afraid, nervous. So to brush it off and be like, oh, it's not really that big of a deal, it's not, I don't know what's an even scarier thing Like it's not multiple sclerosis, it's not cancer, it's not diabetes that is not really acknowledging the impact that it's having. And I think if we don't fully acknowledge the impact that PCOS has on our lives and let ourselves grieve it, then we will continue to not make good progress on actually managing it, because you can't live in denial of it and also improve your symptoms and shout out to those of you in denial because your girl has been there for a long, long time in a lot of different ways. So here's the deal. Pcos is a grieving process that you have to go through. What are the stages of grief? There's denial. Denial is like, I would say, pcos denial looks like well, first of all. It's denial that there's even a problem and not even going to the doctor to find out, like no, it's fine that I don't have a period, whatever.

Speaker 1: 22:38

I certainly lived like that for a while. I never had regular periods, ever, ever, ever. But I never told anyone. And then I remember in high school being like man, I'm lucky I have a period twice a year. This is sweet. All my friends are bleeding all the time. And still to this day, I actually have had very, very short periods of my life where I've had monthly periods. It's been a year here, a year there. I'm only 35, so I didn't have that many experiences to do that and to this day I'm still like dang a period every month. That's no fun, it really isn't. I hated having my period, anyway. So for a long time I lived in this Dalululu land where I was like, oh yeah, this is no big deal, like this is great. And then it was like OK, maybe this isn't so great. How is this going to impact me in the future, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 23:42

So denial is like denying that there's even an issue to begin with, but then, once you're diagnosed, denial is saying well, I don't need to really change anything, though I eat pretty healthy already, like I'm fine. The reality is, though, that if you're eating appropriately for your chronic health condition, your symptoms are not going to be to the point where you are seeking a diagnosis, like, just honestly, how it is, like most people with PCOS, if they're managing it well, if they're eating healthy for them, because healthy for PCOS looks different than other people's version of healthy but if you're eating healthy for your PCOS, you're probably not going to be in the place where you're like man, I'm not having periods, my facial hair is out of control, like I keep gaining weight, like what's the deal. So the denial would be saying, well, everything I'm doing is good enough or it's fine, like there's nothing I can change here. I'm probably eating healthy enough, and some people really do live like that, and you may have been there one time too. Probably, if you're listening to this podcast, you've gone past that point, or maybe you always went past that point, and maybe it was more like well, I know something I'm doing is wrong. I just don't know what and I don't know how to fix it and I don't know what to do. But that would be denial.

Speaker 1: 24:57

And I lived like that for I see I was diagnosed in like 2010. And it probably really wasn't until gosh, I don't even know I started trying to figure it out in 2012. So there was a couple of years there where I was just kind of like this is my fate, like this sucks, I can't do anything about it, like what a bummer, feeling sorry for myself, that kind of stuff. And then I was starting to be like OK, there's got to be something I can do, and started getting into nutrition, but it really wasn't for several more years until I actually figured out what that should be. I messed around a lot, trying different stuff, and not always so successfully Anyway, denial.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Then there's bargaining, right, which bargaining is? Like if I just lose this weight, then I'll be good, like I won't have to think about this anymore, I won't have to worry about this anymore. And a lot of us with PCOS get really hyper-focused on our weight and that's not always our fault, because our health care providers do that to us too. But like this constant process of thinking well, if I was just a little thinner, then everything would be better. The reality is that I've been bigger and I've been thinner, and I still have to live inside my own brain, guys, and so do you. It's like that old thing where you look back at pictures of yourself and you're like why was I so mean to myself? I was so cute and small and just everything was just so adorable about me. And you're going to do that again five years from now, right?

Speaker 1: 26:39

But the reality is like the bargaining piece is a lot of sort of like well, okay, I'm gonna start exercising and exercising a lot, and that's gonna fix it, or I'm just gonna change my diet, I'm not gonna actually exercise, or I'm gonna like just drink a bunch of propiarm protein shakes and lose this weight, and then everything will be fine. It's like a lot of like trying to take the easy way out, essentially, or, you know, just trying to kind of like ignore the situation but also, like you know, get somewhere. The bargaining phase, I feel like, is like focusing on the wrong stuff, not looking at the deeper sort of connections to your mental health or to trauma or to whatever, or root causes, but just kind of being like, okay, what can I do to, like, lose weight? Let me do NutriSystem. And again, I have done NutriSystem so I can relate. By the way, okay, I guess I probably shouldn't talk specifically about brands, but yikes, I did that before my wedding back in 2011. That was nasty. It was so nasty. Oh my God, I can't believe I ever did that.

Speaker 1: 27:56

Anyway, chronic health is a grieving process. This is probably true for other chronic health conditions as well. Right, you get diagnosed with diabetes. I'm sure it's a very similar thing. Get diagnosed with an autoimmune condition. I know that's a similar thing because that's happened to a lot of my clients.

Speaker 1: 28:12

But there's denial, there's bargaining, there's the anger phase. A lot of the content on the internet is aimed at the anger phase. Okay, so what I see, what I've noticed and I think this is just human nature is it's a lot more fun to be angry about something than it is to accept something and actually take responsibility for it. I mean relatable, right? We all do this in different ways. I've certainly done this with PCOS. I went through my phase where I was like this sucks, I did nothing to deserve this. None of this is my fault at all, why is this happening to me? At the end of the day, the genetics are not my fault, right, there are some things that I was doing that certainly weren't helping matters. There were some things that I did that I could have not done, that may have impacted me. There's just.

Speaker 1: 29:15

And taking responsibility for something doesn't necessarily mean you're saying this is my fault. It means this is my responsibility. It means maybe this wasn't my fault, but this is my reality and I need to do something about it. It's like when you have a child right, you go from theorizing and thinking about this is what I would be like as a mom. This is the type of discipline I'm going to use as a mom. This is what I believe about, I don't know, circumcision or whatever.

Speaker 1: 29:49

So many things come up when you're having a little boy right. There's the theoretical aspect and then there's the element of actually you are a mom. They're asking you do you want us to take him and get him circumcised? It's actually a weird example, but it's a good example. It makes sense. He's in the middle of Walmart and he's screaming and you're like, okay, so authoritative or gentle parenting, how am I doing this right now, in this moment? What am I going to do here? So there's theory, then there's actuality, and I think that's what taking responsibility means, and it's a lot easier for us to not do that.

Speaker 1: 30:48

Who wants to take responsibility for something that you never asked for in the first place? I certainly don't, but it's the reality, right, and a lot of the content that I see on the internet that surrounds PCOS is really kind of pushing those buttons of anger, those buttons of not taking responsibility. It's like stuff, like and you've seen it, I'm sure I guess it's like trying to be relatable, which is fair. I mean, I think there does need to be more content out there that is relatable and that makes us feel like we're not alone, because something that PCOS can definitely make us do is make us feel alone. But it'll be stuff like you eating your salad while your friend eats this giant burger and milkshake because you have PCOS. You know what I mean? It's kind of like oh well, everybody else has it so good and I have it so bad because I have PCOS, and so I can't do anything about it and it doesn't just suck and everybody be angry with me. And I want to say this now because I feel like I'm already past that point in my grieving journey, but that is part of the grieving process, so there's a stage for it and you have to be in that stage. When you're in that stage, right, and you have to be able to say, oh, I'm just not going to feel that, I'm just going to go straight on to acceptance and to taking responsibility for this issue, a lot of people bypass that anger stage because in general, they maybe don't like to be angry, they like to be people pleasers, they like to go with the flow.

Speaker 1: 32:27

It gets into tricky questions, philosophical questions with their faith and things like that that they don't want to wrestle with. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes on when you're diagnosed with a chronic health disorder and you have to kind of like, think these things through. And a lot of people try to bypass the anger phase but then it comes out in other ways because you are angry at your core. I mean I'm angry, you're angry. We're all angry at our core about different things and it's okay to be angry when you need to be angry, particularly about this, because there is a lot about PCOS that I think is worth being angry about. I mean, yeah, the fact that you have to put so much more effort than other people, the fact that your effort gets you like half as far.

Speaker 1: 33:13

There's a lot of things to be angry about just the unfairness of it all right, like especially when you get into fertility issues, if you deal with fertility issues with your PCOS. I know I went through that and I was very angry during that time because I ended up having to use IVF to conceive my son and I paid a lot of money for that. I think it was upwards of $20,000 and it could have been a lot more. Honestly, we got really lucky but it could have been a lot more. And I remember just feeling the unfairness of like nobody I know has had to pay upwards of $20,000, $25,000 to have a child. And here I am saddled with debt to just conceive one without even the guarantee that one will come home. So that can make you angry and it's fine that it makes you angry and so I guess, going back to my previous comment about content on the internet that pushes those buttons, it kind of annoys me now but maybe that's because I'm through that phase for the most part and it's maybe good for people who kind of need that, to acknowledge that.

Speaker 1: 34:23

But I do feel like it is also very much a what is it, what do they call it on Reddit rage farming. So they're trying to get you riled up, to get you emotionally responsive, because when you're emotionally responsive, you're also more susceptible to sales pitches, or not? That everybody who does that is like trying to sell you something. I mean, at the end of the day, like anybody who's got an online platform that's fairly large, they are trying to sell you something, but what they're trying to sell they may actually believe in. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 35:02

So, like myself, I sell, I try to sell you guys my courses, right, but I really believe in those courses. I put a lot of hard work and effort into making them really nice, really thorough and really helpful. So I believe in what I'm selling and so I don't feel that there's any moral issue with trying to sell them to you. It's your choice whether you buy them or not, but I am trying to sell you something. Or, like, if I recommend a protein powder or a matcha that I really like, like, yeah, I make some money if you buy from that company, but I only choose to affiliate myself with companies that I trust that I use myself Like you know, I have ethical boundaries around that for myself so that I feel better about it.

Speaker 1: 35:48

Because like I would feel really icky about it if I didn't and I don't want to give myself the ick. But like there are not everybody's like that, or some people will say they're like that and they're not actually like that. You know what I mean. So be discerning, especially if somebody's trying to push your anger buttons.

Speaker 1: 36:04

But anger is a phase that you have to go through when you are diagnosed with PCOS and that's fine. And then you get to what is it? Depression, there's anger and then there's depression. Depression for me can look a lot like the denial phase. Right, because instead of deluding yourself and being like, yeah, I don't have to change anything, because like, there's nothing that I can do, you know you can believe whatever you want it You've got people telling you that there's nothing that nutrition can do for PCOS. I mean there's plenty of people saying that. So if you want to be delulue and believe that, like you totally can, a lot of people do.

Speaker 1: 36:55

And depression is more like acknowledging like yeah, I could do something about it, but like I just don't have the energy or I just can't anymore. I can't try anymore, I'm fatigued and burned out, I'm tired, and that is a valid phase too. So a lot, a lot, a lot. I did a podcast fairly recently on health burnout. But a lot of the people who I've worked with go through this phase while we're working together. And I think it's nice that they go through it while we're working together because I see it as my responsibility as the practitioner to really validate for them that it's normal and that it's okay and that like to give themselves some kindness, because if you're just kind to yourself during those phases they will end faster. But if you deny them, if you deny yourself the ability to kind of get into that numbness or to get into that like sort of fatigue and depression around the issue, then you I think you burn yourself out more. I think it lasts longer. So I always remind people remember that health is a journey and it's like a lifelong deal. So in the grand scheme of things, if you take a month off from thinking about PCOS and just eat whatever and give in to that, it's not going to be the end of the world. Like.

Speaker 1: 38:28

The real test is can you get back on the horse? Can you keep going? Can you forgive yourself for your humanness, even when your humanness pops up again and again and again? Because it will. If you can forgive your humanness, then you will eventually create more consistency with your habits. It will happen, I swear to you. It will happen and I know that because it has happened for me. It's happened for clients I've worked with.

Speaker 1: 38:57

Everybody starts somewhere different. Some people start way, way back. You know they've never eaten a vegetable in their life. Like they live on fast food. It takes that person a lot, lot longer to build up the consistency of eating a daily salad. You know what I mean. Like you can't expect that person to go zero to a hundred and for it to last. Now some people like to go zero to a hundred and try it out and they like to see that change in themselves. And that's cool. I think that's great. If you're that type of person, then I mean I'm all for it. In fact, that's often how I run my practice with my clients. It's like, okay, you're here, you paid all this money, like let's do it. If we're going to do it, let's do it. And so some people are like that. But you can also take it slow, always acknowledge where you're starting from and where you've gotten to.

Speaker 1: 39:51

When I look back, I remember being in college. I think I've probably told this story before because it's one of my favorite illustrative stories. But when I was in college I literally could not eat vegetables Like. I mean I could maybe eat broccoli if it had cheese on it, but like raw vegetables it was a no, particularly salads. I hated the taste and texture of like cold raw vegetables, lettuce stuff like that. It really grossed me out. I had a lot of sensory issues with food and that's why I talk about that so much, because I went through that myself and I had a friend I always talk about this friend who is my best friend from college.

Speaker 1: 40:31

Her name's Margo Really lovely gal, but she grew up eating just more of a like what I would consider a normal balanced diet. I remember going to stay at her house. She lived in Tulsa and I went to stay with her house once for the weekend and her mom brought home muffins from the local bakery but we also had vegetables with our food. She like I remember they took, they went. They were members of like a country club, so we went to eat lunch there after church one day and they all ordered salads and I was like I don't want a salad, I want a burger. So I ordered a burger and fries. It was good too. I still remember that.

Speaker 1: 41:18

But, like you know, I felt I remember just like watching them make these like choices that I was just kind of like really Like you're just doing that, like are you guys trying to lose weight or what's the deal? But that was just they were used to eating a normal balanced diet that had a little bit of everything right. So they were kind of feeling a salad, and sometimes I'm like that now too. But back then I never would have. No, you couldn't have got me too. I hated the taste and texture. It grossed me out and made me gag anyway.

Speaker 1: 41:48

So I remember being very inspired by Margot and her family and I wanted to be like that too, and so I said you know what? I am 20 years old, 21 years old. I forget how old I was. I'm going to have to teach myself to like vegetables. So I started by getting a crouton, wrapping it in one spinach leaf, because I like to spinach more than I liked lettuce. Wrapping it in one spinach leaf, dipping it in honey, mustard and eating that, and I just did that Like and that was my salad. And yeah, was it the healthiest thing in the world? No, obviously I was eating a lot of croutons, but that's what helped me get used to the taste and texture of those foods. Same thing with like cheese on broccoli. Like cheese was actually really helpful for me to like broccoli as a vegetable and as a consequence of that, broccoli has been one of my favorite vegetables for a long time and I crave broccoli a lot more than I crave other things, because it was easier for me to eat, because I was used to eating it with cheese.

Speaker 1: 42:48

And you know, I may have done a podcast on like how to make yourself like vegetables. So I've talked about all those tips, so I won't go into it now. But there's things you can do there, but giving yourself the time and the space to let yourself make those changes, to be human, to struggle with them. You know, after I ate the croutons, did I go immediately into starting to eat salads and then, from there, you know, go into actually craving salads? No, that took years. That took a decade. I think it wasn't until like maybe a few years ago that I actually started to crave salad. Sometimes I was already a nutritionist, but I was very much like, oh, I just like my vegetables cooked. You know what I mean. So it took, it took time, but maybe it would have gone faster if I had allowed myself to be a little bit more human too.

Speaker 1: 43:46

I do think back on that because, like I didn't do that process perfectly by any means, I guilted myself and beat myself up the whole way there, which is sad looking back on it. But you don't have to do that. Learn from my mistakes. Don't do that to yourself. Let yourself be a person like my God. We're all just like trying to, you know. We're just trying to make ends meet. Like, look at the world, the state of the world that we're in right now. How can you worry about being human when you know you can't even afford I don't know your standard, your like basic living expenses, like I get it, you know. So let yourself have those times when it overwhelms you. That's part of the grieving process. And then the other part of the grieving process is, like we talked about before, coming to acceptance, and acceptance, like I said, is taking responsibility for the, for the issue. Like we're here now this is a reality, like we can't change it. So we know we have this and now we look for solutions and we implement the solutions, and so I think that's a really good thing and, yeah, that's the way to do it. So that, I think, is that, in my opinion, is the major driver of mental health issues in PCOS is like being in that grieving process, Because most of those stages have an associated mood change right, so that, that, I think, is a big piece of it.

Speaker 1: 45:13

Another big piece of it from the mental health side is trauma. Like those with PCOS are more likely to have childhood trauma, have higher what we call ACE scores or adverse childhood event scores. A lot of us are dealing with like some stuff from being kids and it could be things as simple as like maybe you were bullied, really bad. I was bullied in middle school. You know I didn't have a lot of friends. I have some really traumatic experiences from back then, and there's other things too. You know that that I won't get into, but we, a lot of us, carry things like that that really impacts the way that we see ourselves and the way that we carry ourselves and and impact our mental health, and they're related to our PCOS for sure, because they impact the way that our bodies handle stress. So we know that we have more like cortisol adrenal issues in PCOS and that's partially because when you've been traumatized your body is more on guard against against stress. So you know what would be just like a regular email for one person of their boss being like, hey, can we talk later. For somebody who's got like trauma and anxiety is going to be like, oh my God, I'm getting fired, you know. And so it impacts you more, like your body's more like ready to fight or flight or fleet right, and that a lifetime of that built up it contributes to PCOS symptoms. It also contributes to mental health symptoms and they're definitely connected.

Speaker 1: 46:48

Another thing that's going on, maybe physically, that that I don't think it's talked about enough, is the insulin connection and exhaustion. So people don't often realize that if your blood sugar is out of balance, it's going too high, it's going too low, it makes you really tired. So one of the ways that I can tell a client is dealing with particularly high blood sugar after meals and that their meals are not aligned for them is that they get really tired after their meals. So if you eat lunch. It happens a lot at lunch. But people go out to lunch or they bring lunch for the office and they've been kind of sitting all day so they haven't been like doing a ton of activity. You eat lunch and then you feel really sleepy and you want to take a nap. It could be because your blood sugar is high, particularly if it's paired with being very thirsty. Those are both symptoms of high blood sugar. And then add another thing to it if you get like to where you really need a snack, like two hours later, or you feel that you are going to pass out or you're weak or you're shaky or whatever, that's a symptom of low blood sugar.

Speaker 1: 47:57

And that can happen when you've got PCOS and insulin resistance. When your meals are bumping your blood sugar too high and then you've got so much insulin in your system it's bringing your blood sugar too low. They call it reactive hypoglycemia. This is common in PCOS, very, very, very common, and I see it a ton, especially in those who don't actually have an insulin resistance, like lab. They've never had a blood work that says like, oh, you've got insulin resistance, because a lot of the blood work that we do for it is not really revealing of like early stage insulin resistance.

Speaker 1: 48:30

But anyway, another topic for another time. Blood sugar swings and high insulin levels can make you exhausted, absolutely exhausted. So if you are tired all the time or you notice that, like when you are eating well you're not tired all the time, and when you're not eating well you are tired all the time, your blood sugar is probably playing a role in that. Now, the way this connects back to mental health is that for a lot of people, myself included, the main manifestation of depression symptoms is actually exhaustion. So I was diagnosed with depression a couple years ago and it was after my hysterectomy.

Speaker 1: 49:12

So a lot of you know that I had cancer endometrial cancer when I was younger and went through a lot of stuff with that, like some ups and downs and things I was able to like get I guess I'm cured is like the wrong word but we were able to get under control to the point where we could preserve my fertility and I really wanted to have a child. I've always wanted to have a child and so my husband and I went through IVF, had our son, but it was a rough few years there because we were going through the infertility process. That was really difficult emotionally. Then we go through IVF, we get pregnant and my whole pregnancy was just absolutely miserable. I had something called a subchorionic hemorrhage, which is like a bruise that breaks open and re-bleeds in the uterine lining. So this meant that while I'm pregnant I'm also having these random bouts of like really heavy bleeding, and if you know anything about pregnancy, you're not supposed to bleed, so you think you're having a miscarriage when you're bleeding like that. So it was horrific, scary, and because it seemed to be in like a weird place where if I stretched too much it would reopen it, I wasn't able to continue with much exercise. I was put on bed rest. I was also put on pelvic rest, which pelvic rest means you can't have any into coas and you also can't have any orgasms. So there goes your stress relief, right.

Speaker 1: 50:56

It was a really, really hard pregnancy. I felt terrible the whole time, probably because I was so sedentary, my blood sugar was getting out of control, my blood pressure was getting high, towards the end High-ish. I didn't have preclamps or anything, but I was starting to get issues. I gained probably. I think I gained like 45 pounds or something, and then at 30 weeks I went into early labor, preterm labor, and I had my son at 30 weeks and five days. So then I had a preemie and so I went straight from like this miserable pregnancy and this like infertility experience to having a preemie at the hospital for a month. He was there for I think we counted out like 37 days, right, which felt like forever. Very scary, obviously, because he was so small when he was born. He was like three pounds and suddenly I'm like thrust into that process and having to like all my energy and focus was changed to being on that, so I never really got to grieve the other stuff.

Speaker 1: 52:02

And then, when my son was about nine months old, I decided to go back in for a checkup that I had been putting off. I was so, so concerned with being able to try to provide milk for my son because he was a preemie and the his doctors were really like pushing me to like try to pump and produce as much as I could, because breast milk is very helpful for preemies, and I just could not like my supply just wasn't there. I couldn't, no matter how much I tried, and I was pumping like 12 times a day. I mean I was pumping like every two hours. I was doing everything that I could and I just I never was able to make more than five ounces of breast milk in a day, and that was like later, after we were back from the hospital, all that stuff. So I never was able to fully feed him myself. That really, really hurt me mentally and emotionally, especially when all those hormones were raging.

Speaker 1: 53:05

So I kind of stopped taking care of myself during that time and didn't go back on my medication that I needed to be on in order to keep my endometrial lining in the right place. So I go back to my doctor finally, because I'm like it's been nine months, like I should probably get checked out and you know, I was thinking maybe I might need a little higher dose or something, and my doctor was very concerned about how things looked, referred me to my oncologist. The oncologist, you know, looking back, was a little bit snip happy. He liked to do robotic surgery and he really pushed in on me. I probably shouldn't have listened. I should have gotten a second opinion.

Speaker 1: 53:50

But anyway, from a Friday to a Monday I was diagnosed with what they assumed was the cancer had kind of come back and on that Monday I had a total hysterectomy. They removed my ovaries. They removed my cervix, they removed my uterus, like it was a major surgery. And then sorry, I'm giving you guys my sob story. But then at the hospital, as I'm supposed to be recovering from this surgery, that's like supposed to be like you have a surgery, you go home the same day.

Speaker 1: 54:25

I'm not getting better. It's also COVID, so I'm alone. They won't allow anybody into my room because this was like July of 2020. And yeah, I'm not getting any better. They finally realized I'm bleeding internally. I guess one of my lymph nodes was like that. He had like biopsied, hadn't closed or had reopened or something.

Speaker 1: 54:52

I still, to this day, don't know exactly what happened, but I was bleeding into my abdomen and so I was getting very, very anemic. I stopped being able, like my vision started going out, I couldn't see anymore. Of course, I was extremely tired, like scared. Yeah, it was, it was rough, and so then I had to go and have another surgery to get that fixed. And you know, irony of all ironies, the American healthcare system I had to pay for that second surgery, which is just still to this day, bothers me. I feel like that should. I feel like that one should have been a freebie, anyway.

Speaker 1: 55:32

So, gosh, where was I? Why am I telling you this? I think I'm telling you this because I have been through a lot of stuff and it's impacted my body in a lot of ways. So trauma, for sure, trauma, right, medical trauma and all kinds of other traumas could be associated with all that that I went through.

Speaker 1: 55:58

But after my hysterectomy I was in menopause, right. So I went through what's called surgical menopause and the change in my hormones and I think the combination of just like needing to like actually grieve a lot of stuff was so hard on me that I really I just didn't recover from it. And it was at that point that, probably about a year later, that I just realized you know what I just I like I need some help. At the same time, I'm like building my business, I'm like building my online presence, I'm like putting myself out there and, you know, dealing with really looking back, it was a lot that I was going through and kind of putting myself through out of fear and all this, all kinds of stuff. But anyway, I ended up getting on bupropion. Well, butrin I have never shared this publicly that I'm on psychotropic medication, because I used to be one of those people. That was like, oh, people shouldn't be on those meds, they should just take care of their diet. Then it happened to me and I realized, oh wow, today, sometimes a little bit of support and help can really really turn things around. Because after I got on that medication that I finally got some of my energy back.

Speaker 1: 57:26

The way that my depression manifested was just pure exhaustion. I was just so tired I could hardly get out of bed. I could basically just do what I needed to do to take care of my child and my work, because I was very focused on my work. I could basically just do that and then I was in bed. Obviously, things were falling by the wayside with my personal health. I was so, so, so tired. I can't even describe it to you. I'm sure some of you have felt this but just that exhaustion that just makes you more exhausted. You know what I mean. You're tired and then you rest and you feel more tired. What was that? It was hormone changes, it was adrenal fatigue, it was grief, it was a lot of things all at once. I really struggled and the usual tools, the usual things that I had done before supplements, nutrition, all that just weren't enough. Yeah, I started taking medications and I'm so glad I did and I'm still on them. I am happy with that and I'm not changing that because they helped me a lot.

Speaker 1: 58:50

I wanted to share that with you because I guess I just wanted to remind you that, even though I work in functional nutrition, that field can get a bad rap for being completely alternative or way on the holistic side. It's really not about that. Conventional medicine is about using the best of what we've got as humans as healers. Conventional medicine, even psychotropic medication, is some of the tools that we've created as humans to help. It's using the best of what we've got on both sides to help us. I'm practicing what I preach there by doing both. I'm a nutritionist. Obviously I try to eat right. I take certain supplements that are really helpful for depression, for me and anxiety, but I also take some prescription stuff and I like it that way. That's what's working for me, a lot of the stuff that we've talked about so far. I know this podcast is going to be a real long one, but a lot of that stuff is what I think contributes to mental health issues in PCOS.

Speaker 1: 1:00:04

One of the other things that I didn't discuss yet is the otherness of PCOS, which is essentially the concept that you feel different when you have PCOS because your body doesn't work the same way as other people's. Maybe you have androgenic symptoms, so you've got hair loss or you've got facial hair or you've got the weight issue that a lot of us deal with. I know for myself I always felt different from my friends. I just never really felt fully like a woman, comparatively, because I didn't have some of the stuff that they had. I also had some stuff that they didn't have, like facial hair. I just never really felt whole in that sense. That otherness was bred a lot of anxiety For me. My life was mostly anxiety related to PCOS and stuff. After the hysterectomy, the anxiety left because I started going to therapy and that was wonderful and very healing. The anxiety left and then the fatigue and depression took its place.

Speaker 1: 1:01:15

Fun types, what we're getting there. We're making progress. Let's talk about progress. What helps? What can we do? What are some solutions?

Speaker 1: 1:01:26

So, number one, from the nutrition side. Obviously there are some nutritional things we can do Manage our blood sugar. Go listen to some of my podcasts about insulin resistance and methods for managing that. That's going to give you the best information you can get Either that or. I mentioned some of my courses. I think PCOS Foundations is a really, really good place to start for getting a handle on a balanced, blood sugar friendly diet.

Speaker 1: 1:01:55

Eating your blood sugar does 80 out of 100 things. It practically does everything that you would want it to do. It's pretty simple to do. It's really just about making sure that you're eating enough protein and that you're doing that with every meal and that you're not overwhelming your body with too much starch, that you're eating healthy fats, that you're eating fiber. It sounds like a lot of things, but the reality of how it actually looks on a plate is not that complicated. There may be a podcast about the PCOS plate as well. Do that first, because that will help with your energy. Your energy is key because you need to have energy in order to be able to actually function and do the rest of the stuff that needs to be done. I would put a lot of energy into nutrition first.

Speaker 1: 1:02:41

On the nutrition side as well, there's supplementation that can be helpful. I find that Omega-3 fatty acids so fish oils really really key for brain health, and that includes mental health. If you want to look in the show notes, I will link to my favorite of these favorite brands I always link to. I usually link to Thorn, which is a therapeutic quality brand. Their products are really really good, really potent as well, and potency matters a lot if you're going to be paying for a supplement. I highly recommend them. I will link them below if you want to try them out.

Speaker 1: 1:03:21

Vitamin D is another one. This is particularly key if you find that you are more depressed or anxious in the winter time or when there's not enough sun. I live in South Texas so I am very, very addicted to sunlight. Even when it's summertime but it's a rainy week, I start getting really down because I'm not seeing the sun. Some of us are like that. Vitamin D is the pill form of sunshine. Maybe if you have a vitamin D deficiency which I would highly, highly recommend getting tested for because it's very common in PCOS and the US population at large If you have a vitamin D deficiency, correcting that deficiency can feel like the lights are turning back on. It literally feels like the sun came out. It's craziness. I remember that for myself when I was first getting into supplements, some of the first things I did was vitamin D and magnesium, which is another one. That's key. When I started taking both of those and the difference it made in my energy and my anxiety was crazy different. Highly highly recommend both of those. Definitely get your vitamin D tested Then B vitamins can also help a lot.

Speaker 1: 1:04:32

Those of us with PCOS tend to more commonly have something called the MTHFR gene mutation, which makes it more difficult for us to process B vitamins. There are different severities of this mutation. Some peoples is pretty mild, but some of us have it more severe. If you do, it may really be impacting your mood. I'd highly recommend I think it's pretty safe to just get on a good quality prenatal vitamin that has methylated B vitamins. I tend to recommend that for PCOS since it doesn't hurt. It helps. It's like a prenatal. The only difference between a prenatal and a regular multivitamin is iron, sometimes choline, which are both great. Highly recommend those from the nutrition side.

Speaker 1: 1:05:25

From the mental health side, there is some research that shows that cognitive behavioral therapy is very effective for PCOS. If you have a therapist that can do CBT I really love a therapist that's trauma informed, because not all CBT therapists are A therapist that's trauma informed. A therapist that does EMDR, which is eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing, which is a way of helping your brain to process traumatic memories that are stuck in the body. That's a real thing, very evidence-based. Go look it up on PubMed if you want to. I know it sounds hokey, but it's a real thing. And cognitive behavioral therapy If they can do all of those things and they're good at all of those things, that's the gold mind. My therapist I love her. She does all those things. She's fantastic. I will pay, I will give her my kidney. Seriously, I love her so much. Honestly, biggest difference in my anxiety for sure has come from that work. Depression that's a little bit different, I think, because for me there's a lot of physical component to that, but for my anxiety, totally, totally different with those things, and same thing for a lot of my clients too. The other thing to keep in mind is that there is some good research connecting mindfulness and gratitude work with, and stress reduction with, reduced mental health issues. So if you've never tried mindfulness, I mean there are lots of ways to dip your toe in the water there.

Speaker 1: 1:07:08

Meditations are usually a good place to start. The Calm app is nice, but even just committing to doing one 15-minute little meditation exercise a day, it can really make a big difference in your mood, particularly if you do it in the morning. If you have trouble sleeping, you could also do it at night, but I think doing it in the morning is really nice, even something like listening to bird sounds in the morning. They've found that that helps people feel calmer and happier. So lately I've been listening to bird sounds in the morning and thank God it's becoming spring so there's actual birds now that I can listen to. But these things all can play a role and they're just little things. Playing bird sounds in the morning it's not hard. You can even get one of those hatch alarm clocks and it'll do it automatically for you. So that's an easy thing. But also just simple 15-minute guided meditations. If you get something like the Calm app, you do have to pay for that, but it is very convenient. It's all in one place, whereas you could go on YouTube and find free ones. But I don't know. Sometimes I struggle because I'm like I don't like this person's voice or I'm very picky, so you do you. But guided meditations is a good place to start. You can also make your own meditation practice.

Speaker 1: 1:08:27

I do different things. If I get bored, I'll start doing this something different. So sometimes I do an active meditation where it'll be maybe stretching or yoga based. Sometimes I'll do passive meditations where I'm just sitting and just closing my eyes and clearing my mind or trying to clear my mind. Sometimes I'll do guided stuff and sometimes meditation for me just looks like quietly drinking my matcha while looking at the window and daydreaming. That can be meditation too. There's just those kinds of things set us up.

Speaker 1: 1:09:05

Another thing that we can strive for is something called low dopamine mornings. There's this concept that if we burn out our dopamine first thing in the morning by like being on our phones and different things, then we'll be more depressed throughout the rest of the day. So low dopamine mornings is a cool concept. I've done it some and it is helpful. It's hard to do, I'll be honest, because I don't get enough alone time. So sometimes in the morning I just want to watch TikTok and I know, I know. But when I have done it it does help with improving mental health because it just kind of sets you up for a little bit more presence and calmness throughout the day.

Speaker 1: 1:09:49

I think sometimes if you start your day on social media, it's almost like you're outside your body. You're not in your own life. You're in the internet for the rest of the day. I don't know how to describe what I'm saying, but hopefully you get it. It's a little more difficult to come down to earth and to be happy with the simple things. There's something to be said for making a matcha in the morning, for cooking a meal without distractions and TV and all these different things going on. It's the pleasures of life, the pleasures of the moment. They can be difficult to perceive if you are burning your dopamine out by constantly watching stuff. So if you can let yourself not do that in the morning, at least it does help set you up for the rest of the day and it helps with sleep. So just some thoughts, some different things that you can do. There are obviously a lot of other things.

Speaker 1: 1:10:48

I know one of the biggest things for my personal depression has been exercise. I have really really increased my exercise since dealing with all of this and probably more than most things, that has made a huge difference. Just some form of exercise. So right now I'm doing dance, I salsa dance and I do bachata and I go to dance like four times a week, sometimes more. If there's a social, let me cook, because I'm not sure how long I can keep up that sort of pace. But I've always loved music and I love dance and I love the connection and I love the people and so for me it's a really, really fulfilling experience that really, really gives me a lot of good endorphins and it's great for my blood sugar.

Speaker 1: 1:11:46

The key is to not get burned out on things, and I tend to do that when I get excited about stuff. But we're trying not to. But I've also done I did pole dancing for a long time pole fitness, which I think is fantastic exercise for PCOS. I think it's really great, especially if you struggle with your body and feeling comfortable in your body. So the piece of advice I always like to give about exercise is really think outside the box. Everybody gets so caught up with just going to the gym and that's so boring. If you like that, it's cool, because some people like to just escape go get on the treadmill or whatever and listen to their music or whatever, and that's fine if that's what you like. But for me it's never been motivating enough to keep up with and I've found that I keep up much, much better, that I actually enjoy physical activity if it's something fun. So pole fitness for me.

Speaker 1: 1:12:36

I like stuff that has levels so you can get better and better and you have guideposts on how good you're getting. Because I like to win, I like to succeed. And then I like stuff that's connection with other people and I like stuff that's connected to music. So different forms of dance have always been fun for me to do. I used to do Zumba back in the day, so that's a great workout. You need some strength training in your PCOS lifestyle, for sure, but if you're not doing something fun with your exercise, if you're not doing something that you really enjoy, think about trying some different stuff, because you're more likely to stick with it and it's more likely to help with your mood if you actually look forward to doing it or you know that once you're doing it it's so fun you're going to feel better. After Some nights I don't feel like going to dance, but I know that I always have so much fun at dance and then, as soon as I get there, I'm like oh yeah, this is why I like going. So, anyway, those are just some of my thoughts for you.

Speaker 1: 1:13:38

I hope this podcast has been helpful. I know it was a long one, so I'm going to try not to make them all this long, but I just had a lot I wanted to say today. Thank you for listening. If you liked this podcast. We could really use some reviews on Apple Podcasts, so if you get a chance, you can find the link for that in the show notes. I really, really would appreciate it, and just let me know what you guys like, what you want to hear more of, and I will see you soon. Take care everyone.