When the Minister Outgrows the Mentor

Navigating the delicate dance of mentorship in ministry is a complex yet crucial path to tread. Join me, Dr. Robert F. Dowell, as I engage in an enriching dialogue with Elder James Keith Powers, where we pull back the curtain on the often-avoided topic of outgrowing one's mentor. We delve into the potential pitfalls this may bring about, such as ministers feeling superior to their mentors, which could breed a destructive lack of respect and trust.

In the realm of ministry, authentic mentors serve a paramount role. Listen in as Elder Powers and I shed light on the dire repercussions of prematurely severing ties with a mentor. We illuminate how mentors, acting as watchful guardians, help us recognize our blind spots, bestowing upon us the gifts of wisdom, understanding, and support. We also discuss the importance of recognizing when a mentor may no longer be suited to occupy such a significant place in our lives.

As we wrap up our enlightening conversation, we explore the sensitive dynamics of leadership and mentorship. We discuss the importance of self-awareness in preventing jealousy from festering within the mentor-mentee relationship. Savor the wisdom as we delve into how leaders can foster a secure identity, enabling them to appreciate the growth and accomplishments of their mentees. Lastly, Elder Powers and I provide insight into the importance of embracing technology to disseminate the word of God, and the potential pitfalls of overlooking its benefits. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and insights for any minister navigating the rich tapestry of mentorship relationships.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:03

Welcome to the Five Fold Food Podcast hosted by Dr Robert F Dowell, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment, they need to succeed. The Word of God declares, and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Prepare to receive revelation, wisdom and insight to empower your ministry for victory. Now let's eat.

Dr. Robert Dowell 0:35

Praise the Lord, welcome to Five Fold Food. I'm your host Dr. Robert F Dowell. I'm so delighted that you're here with me for another podcast. No matter where you might be watching or viewing this, we pray that you will subscribe If you're listening to it. Be sure that you subscribe so that you can get all of our latest podcasts, whether you're on iTunes, spotify, apple Podcast, wherever you are. Be sure that you subscribe wherever you get your podcast so that you can get our latest episodes. If you are watching our YouTube podcast, for those that are watching us, be sure that you do like and subscribe and share some comments so that we'll know how that you are enjoying the podcast. I'm excited for another Five Fold Food podcast. Today I'm going to be joined by an awesome man, the God that I have the pleasure of serving in ministry with Elder James Keith Powers. I want to welcome you to today's podcast. How are we doing?

Elder James Powers 1:42

Hey, how you doing, Pastor, I'm so excited to be here. I know we're going to have a great time. I'm ready to get into it Amen.

Dr. Robert Dowell 1:51

I'm excited for all those that are rocking with us in the Five Fold Food nation. We're excited about today's podcast. Before we jump right into it, Elder Powers, you know how we do it here. I want you to. Just for those who don't know you, who you are, can you just kind of give us a little background of who you are? Yes, sir, Tell us about yourself.

Elder James Powers 2:17

Yes, sir, Like Pastor Dahl said, my name is Elder James Keeks Powers. I served over 20 years in the military as a military policeman. I deployed three times and I received a bronze star in combat. I'm a licensed ordained minister. I hold a bachelor's degree in theology from the Minnesota Graduate School of Theology and a bachelor's degree in behavior science. I am married for 12 years. I have six children, beautiful children and a beautiful wife. Let me say the word beautiful. I enjoy what I do. I've been a praise leader, I've been a youth leader and I enjoy ministry and I enjoy serving God's people.

Dr. Robert Dowell 3:06

Amen, I'm glad that you are a part of what we do to help serve ministers. You are a minister, indeed, or a five-fold minister. I want to get down Elder Powers into our topic on today, what I want to talk about in today's podcast. In our previous podcast, elder Powers, we've been dealing with the subject of mentorship. We've been talking about mentors and we started with talking about the need for a mentor those that are crying and may help a mentor. Then we talked about also dealing with toxicity being a toxic mentor If your leader or minister is toxic. How do we deal with all of that? While we're still in this vein, we're dealing with a mentor. In that vein, what we're going to discuss for a topic today's podcast is when the minister outgrows the mentor. What do we do when the minister outgrows the mentor? You know, here on five-fold food, it says that Matthew how that mentioned.

Dr. Robert Dowell 4:11

I live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeded out of the mouth of God, we live by the food of the word of God. Many times, elder Powers in church, when the preacher preaches, I know on Sunday morning, I'm given a meal and it's predominantly what I would call sheep food. It's food for the entire sheep. It's discipleship food to help them grow, and more in the Lord and loving the Lord and following Him. I believe, if we're going to be healthy, that five-fold ministers that evangelize, that pastor, that teacher, the prophet, they need what's called five-fold food. Like a leader needs leadership food, a prophet needs prophetic food. In other words, they need certain things in the diet that are specifically pertained under them, and this is why I'm excited about the five-fold food podcast.

Dr. Robert Dowell 5:06

Well, we can have conversations, elder Powers that many people normally don't have, that you won't get in a church setting conversations that need to be had but many people never get. You know often I share it with you that a lot of times when we're having conversations like man, this need to be recorded, cause this is a conversation. If somebody else was a fly on the wall, man, they would benefit. And so this is where I, many years ago, my vision with the five-fold food for that, for people can get a privy to those conversations that normally that they don't have, and I believe this is one of them conversations when the minister outgrows the mentor.

Dr. Robert Dowell 5:48

Like you know, what do you do If you feel like you've you've outgrown your, your leader, your, your, your pastor, your, your, your apostle, the person that's over sighting you, and we're talking about in terms of five-fold ministers, and I believe God's going to give us some revelation. Our conversation. Let's dive in into into that, because this could be problematic. They say the least. When you find a person, find themselves in there, what sticks out, what comes to you when you begin to think about some advice that we could give them, how this may be problematic, what comes to your mind?

Elder James Powers 6:25

Well I? That's the doubt this is. This can be problematic. I feel as though sometimes ministers may feel that they've outgrown their leader because a lot of them may feel like they're more gifted, they're more talented than the person that they are submitted to, and this becomes a problem because they lose they they lose a little bit of respect or they lose a little bit of authority for the individual. They feel like that person don't have authority over them because they're not as gifted and talented as someone they may see on television or someone they may see. I know the word Honor. They lose the honor for that individual because they feel like there's someone greater or someone better for them to learn from.

Elder James Powers 7:25

But but this is the reason why it's a problem, because you may have a grown, outgrown them in ability, but you haven't outgrown their authority, because God placed that individual, or place you in that individual's life and they put authority, they give that person authority over your life. But the problem is is they may be lacking in ability in your mind because there's someone that may be more gifted and you lose a little bit of honor before that individual. But here's the thing we submit to authority, not ability. So sometimes we get that confused because someone's gifted and they are talented and what you do is I'm submitting to someone's gifts, I'm submitting because they're a great preacher or they're a great teacher, but no, we are submitting to their authority, not their ability.

Elder James Powers 8:25

And we sometimes we do believe that the gift proceeds, authority, but it doesn't, because it says in Jeremiah 3 and 15, it said I would give you a shepherd. That means God is placing that authority in your life, he is giving you a shepherd and you cannot grow outrow the shepherd in your life, the authority in your life. That person, they may not be gifted in certain certain areas, or maybe not as gifted as you in certain areas, but they still have the authority on your life and so that means that they still have something that they can pour into your life. That means God has already seen what this individual have and they've already seen what you need. That individual still have the ability to pour in your life to get you to your destiny so you can walk in purpose. Now it may not be something big and grand, like you, like you, like you see on on in some ministries, but what you need, that person has those things that you may know.

Dr. Robert Dowell 9:39

Oh man, this is good. This is why you know the powers that I believe we need to have these conversations, because I often like to put it this way If any corn is a legitimate corn and not a counterfeit corn, there's two sides to the corn. If it's not two sides, it's counterfeit, and you have done a great job of helping us see one side of the corn. I believe these are why conversations that we have to have, that we need to understand that side, meaning that that your your your submission, your honoring to that leader, that bishop or whoever that mentor is, because, not just because of the gifts and talents, but to the authority that you felt that God has put in their life for them to you know, pour into your life to help shepherd you, to help raise you up. I think that's so good, because what happens is, if we're not aware that we can focus more on ability and we as five full ministers, whether we are senior pastors or whether we're elders, whatever dimension that we in because I believe we should not only be, we are in authority, but all of us should be under some type of authority If we're not careful, why I think that what you brought out is so good we can find ourselves being attracted to and following whoever seems the most gifted, the most talented, who's hot and popping at this time in this season. So who's most hot and popping, most gifted, then that's who my spiritual If you use that term, my spiritual father, that's my mentor, that's my covering, that's my pastor, that's who I connect with because we're trying to follow gifts and talents and I believe when we do that, we can miss what God put in that person in our lives, what he has for us. I kind of look at it like this way we're going to look at the other side of that corn too.

Dr. Robert Dowell 11:36

It's like your parent. Your parents raise you and maybe they didn't go to college like you didn't. So you go off to college, you get a good job, you know you got more education than your parents. Now you're making more money than your parents. You have any experiences that your parents didn't have. So in one regard, in one aspect, you have a surpass your parents and maybe accomplish more than what they, what they've had, but but that's still your parent. That's still the person in your life and there's still something that they can bring to the table. There's still a value that they have in your life and the problem with that and I'm glad what you brought that out, what I've seen happen, elder Powers is that when a person does begin to grow in whatever their ability whether it's the size of their church and they're under another bishop or whatever you know, in the size of their ministry or the ministry that they have, if they're paramenistry, then they equate that that since I've surpassed them, I've accomplished more than them. I've done more. Now they don't have anything that they can offer me and bring to the table, because now I'm man, I'm doing more than them. You know, and I think when we do that, you can miss what they do bring. Maybe your parents cannot teach you about finances, about buying a house or your 401k or different things, because they didn't matriculate to that level. But the awesome things, when you still have that honor for them that they can bring to the table and I think that's important in a church setting or whatever that we realized that that they still can.

Navigating the Dynamics of Mentorship Relationships

Dr. Robert Dowell 13:21

I know many, I want to say many. I know some men of God who have mega churches and their churches have far lapsed. You know the church that they were birthed at, in their pastor. But because they understand this principle, then they still honor, they still that pastor, that leader still has a place and a space in their life, even though in some regards, they've accomplished a lot more than they have. And so I think this is why that's important, that you brought out that key point, that we're beginning to understand that that they still have a value and what they can offer in their life. And I'm going to tell you why I think this is so important, because the first thing we think of we want to deal with the other side of it is well, I came to you because and I connected with you and you have a responsibility, because there's something that you should birth in me better me to help me. And when you're no longer able to do that, now let's flip that coin. When you're not able to do that, am I bound? What do I do? That's why I say it can be problematic, because the other side do I just stay here and die? Do I stay here and not develop? Do I stay here and not grow? Because I don't have it?

Dr. Robert Dowell 14:45

And I believe it could come into what we talked about in our podcast why we have to all have these conversations, because now it can become a toxic situation. Now why? Because when something is toxic, it's unhealthy, and in our last podcast we thought about God. He doesn't call us to stay in unhealthy. He don't want us in a toxic, in an abusive something that's toxic. And it can become toxic when you're in a situation where you've outgrown your mentor, your leader and they no longer can add value in your life. I believe that's another side we have to realize too, but there come a side where there are no longer adding value.

Dr. Robert Dowell 15:34

When is this work? What we have to hear Sometimes. I believe it can be problematic and I wanna hear what you got on this. You just jump in here that it can be a season. Sometimes seasons change, sometimes things change. Where that relationship has ran its course, that relationship has accomplished what it need to accomplish. It's like a scalpel when someone's paying something. They have a scalpel to paint the building, but once they're painted they remove that scalpel. And I believe that can be a part also this why I said it can be problematic, because it's just not a black and white where you just you stay there, you're not getting developed, you're not growing. It's an archaic system. It's no push, no thrust, and so now you're done.

Dr. Robert Dowell 16:37

This is why I believe it can be problematic. What are you hearing this? Because I believe we gotta deal with both of those sides, because that's when prayer and wisdom. Well, I think we need to have this conversation because it may be different for each people, but that's why I think this is a five-fold conversation that many we don't have. And if it was just preaching and you preached it, you did preach a side. That was truth. But many times when we're preaching, we don't have time to spend that thing all around and have a conversation so we can break it down. And so then you have the other side, like I'm saying man, you got to man, the thing is toxic, you ain't growing because your leader becomes your leader, elder Proud, your leader becomes a lead on you. If your leader is a eight I'm just saying a five then you can't too much. They become your cap. So that's why the leader needs to raise the lead, so you can raise all those under them. What are you hearing in this?

Elder James Powers 17:34

Well, I know. So, pastor, there's multiple areas that a leader can pour into right, so there's not one specific area that they can pour into. So it really boils down to if the individual cannot give you anything, that's when it becomes toxic. When they can't pour into your marriage, when they can't, they can't provide any value. So what you're?

Dr. Robert Dowell 18:00

saying is that's when it can become toxic and it may need to be a lead thing. See, that's why we got to have this conversation, not just because you got a bigger ministry, you've accomplished more, you're traveling around the world, that your leader's church is 300, you running 1500, that's not necessarily mean you need to disconnect.

Elder James Powers 18:21

Absolutely, because here's the thing although you may have more people in the congregation, you may be more gifted, more charismatic.

Dr. Robert Dowell 18:30

you may be better at let's say you're an evangelist and you're traveling the world, you on bigger stages than the church that you'll go to. Absolutely Should they leave you on a. How can that pastor help you and mean you on the stage with man, bigger people than you coming to a church at a storefront?

Elder James Powers 18:47

Yes, but see, that's the thing, there's so many different things that that pastor still can lead you in. He can teach you in leadership, he can teach you in administration. He can teach you in so many different areas, although you may be doing better than him, that person, in some areas. In some areas in building relationships, in keeping and maintaining the ministry, longevity in the ministry Because, yeah, you might be start off hot, but the longevity part you ain't got yet right. You may just got married, but the longevity in marriage and ministry is totally different from five to 10 years, from 10 to 20 years, 20 years. So that individual still have a place in your life in certain areas. Now back to the original, what you said if they can't provide any value right, we talking any value, that's your right that becomes a toxic relationship, and so I think in those instances, that's when the conversation need to be had. The conversation.

Dr. Robert Dowell 19:53

It might be a season.

Elder James Powers 19:54

It might have ran its course, absolutely the first conversation is conversation with God, because if God placed you there, you got to have a conversation as to you moving on to the next place that you need to go. But then you need to have a conversation with that individual that's mentoring you. Because if it is in fact a situation that you have to lead, there has to be conversations had, there has to be communication as to what your plans are and what you need moving forward. Because now, when you lead, it has to be done the right way. Even if the mentor don't like it. At least give that individual opportunity to have a conversation with you. At least give them an opportunity to dialogue with you and let him know where he's falling short, because there may be some areas that he's still supporting you and he might not realize he's falling shorting. So if you have that conversation, it doesn't mean sometimes that he don't have the knowledge and the wisdom. That could be a season in his life, the, where he's going through some things, the where he hasn't been able to pour into you like he did in previous years. Right, and so you have that dialogue and conversation to see what's going on and then, if still in fact, after that conversation, you feel as though it's time to move on. At least you had that conversation. That's what mature leaders does, and then you can move on to wherever God is sending you.

Elder James Powers 21:31

But you have to have that conversation first. You have to go direct with that leader instead of just leaving in the middle of the night to where there's no understanding, there's no clarity, and then you just left. Because now what you're doing is that you are dishonoring all the years that they did pour into you. You are just doing everything they've done for you thus far, because you can't leave that part out, right? Because if they poured into you in five years and they gave you everything they had, you still have to honor that. You still have to let him know. I appreciate what you've done, right, because there's a pattern that's passed along. Maybe those five years was him passing that pattern on you and he gave you everything he had those five years and it's time for you to go. But now you are showing that you did value him or you value her or you value that leader during those five years.

Dr. Robert Dowell 22:31

Let's see. That's why I think this is why this conversation is so important, because there's so many different new answers to it. As you say, see, there's a right way that we go about doing it and even if there has to be a separation sometimes, the question, the first question, is sometimes, is there need to be a separation? Now we're qualifying next, because sometimes they're not adding value. They become a lead, it becomes toxic, but then there need to be a conversation with God. But then there need to be a conversation with them because they might not know what you need, because they're human, they might not be sensitive and maybe they can pull in in the area and you didn't give them a chance. Then they need to be understanding because what you need them to pull into you, they might not have that, but they got something else and this is why you have to still be able to have that honor and to see them the right way, as you said before, in the gifting and the talent. We have to see the big picture, not just in size of the church they have, the, how big their ministry is what they do, what they accomplish, how many books they have, how many follow. You gotta look at the big picture, that there's still other things that's so important that they can add, just as you said, with and I've seen it, elder Pals, I've seen it, I've seen it with people I mean I've seen it walked out where people were like preachers, like they were on a trajectory that was going high, killing the game. I mean killing the game in terms of ministry, in terms of the church, the congregation, and I'm talking about in terms of numerical, I'm talking in terms of financial doing it, doing it. And I've seen them and we call no names and I've seen them disconnect from leaders that were over them and their rationale is because they've taken me as far as they could. You know what I need and the dimensions that God wanna move me in. They don't have it. Let's say you have a minister, he's more cutting edge. You don't wanna move and doing the podcasting or being more digital, setting up systems and automation, or maybe going to the nations and reaching more apostolic and reaching to the nations and going and raising up other leaders, whatever. And then the leader that's not their flow. They're not automated, they're not dealing with automation, they have no concept of the digital ministry. They're more local. You know you talk about going to the nations so they feel for what I need. I need to connect, I need to be a part of something or organization. That's speaking my language, because it's called the principle of the place elder powers. The place is important. We're in Oklahoma, you you bring palm trees to Oklahoma. That tree won't grow, that tree will die and nothing wrong with the tree. But it's not in the right place. Take that tree in into Florida. That tree begins to flourish. Nothing was wrong with the tree why it was in the wrong place. So where we are place is Important and so we get that, and so it's important where, where we go and who we connect with. All that is important.

Dr. Robert Dowell 26:00

Sometimes, season can change, however. This is why you have to have these conversations, a big picture that maybe they can teach you the automation that you want. Maybe they not into the apostolic dimension and they don't understand that because that leader was more past story. Or maybe they not. They don't know the prophetic and presbyterism and having a prophetic team and and deliverance and the deeper rims of deliverance. Whatever it is that you feel that your initial leader may be lacking. They may be lacking in that area, but you got to realize there's still some crucial areas that God may have put in them. That's essential for your next level. And maybe Sustainability, because what I've seen other powers, they disconnect man, the whole ministry crumble. Because those things of Foundation, of those things are how to be a good leader. Those things in and having discernment, those things and maybe Dealing with your money, those things may be in character humility, being able to handle it on the top.

Dr. Robert Dowell 27:08

Because, see, you need somebody In your life who's not impressed with you. Oh good, god and Zion, that's what a daddy do, that's what you did it. Because they, they like, no, they not impressed with all of that that you do. That's not like our wives. Why, sometimes? Why it's good man, you or your husband, your wives, that's just deal with me. You mighty man, the God man, you moving in deliverance and you speaking and you're talking to thousands and everybody. I mean you're changing lie and you come home and it's like me, you didn't take out the trash, you know, like clean the kitchen. They're not impressed. That's good for us. That's good why?

The Importance of Authentic Mentors

Dr. Robert Dowell 27:49

Because you need people in your life who not impressed with you and when you have people like that, then they're not afraid to keep it 100 with you and because they love you, they always have your best interests and they'll tell you better, watch that. No, no, they're not jealous, see, and that's what leader they might bring that to the table to keep, not to beat you down, but they keep you. That's it. Keep your sound and keep your foot on the ground, because now you get around all these people who just sing your praises because you disconnected from a little little church that you went to Because that pastor don't know, he ain't even know, he ain't even on live stream. Man, you, you, on tiktok, instagram, you got thousands of followers, you monetizing, making you know six figures on YouTube. Man, in that pastor, he, he battled on Facebook and so you feel he don't have anything and you missed that. He, he could have taught you how to the relationship, the value relationship with your kids, absolutely. So this is why I think this is this is such a needed conversation.

Elder James Powers 28:58

So so here, here's the thing you know, like you said, people that are being with you or that they're designed to be in your life, they love you enough to tell you the truth and they don't mind telling you the truth and they don't care what the Rem notifications, they really don't care, because they know they, they, they know the truth is gonna get you to where you need to go in life and you know if you, if you really think about it, let's just say let's take the NFL. There are some NFL coaches that's never played in the NFL, never played college ball, but they're coaching on the NFL level, right, and these guys are Hall of Famer. Some of these guys have done way apart seated. The coach made more money than the coach. But they have authority to speak in their lives. They can talk, they can, they can see their blind spots, they can help them get to the Super Bowl. Oh, you hit that hit that.

Dr. Robert Dowell 29:56

That's a see. This is that you hit a kick for to help them see what they help them see the blind spots. And what is a blind spot?

Elder James Powers 30:03

blind spot is areas that you can't see or areas that you don't recognize, the where you can be attacked at, where you're vulnerable at. And you know, in the military, you know, we always say we need somebody to watch our six because our eyes are straight ahead, our eyes of vision, we, we on purpose, we on ministry, we own things that God wants to do, and you need to have somebody watching your six, watching your back, and that's what mentors do. Mentors are the ones that have your six watching your back and they telling you the truth hey, don't go to the left, don't go to the right, you need to go forward right and see, sometimes we have people in our lives that are there for the wrong reasons. Right, they there for the wrong reasons and they tell you to go in areas to where you shouldn't be going, because they don't have that type of Relationship with you.

Elder James Powers 30:55

Mentors, they have that type of relationship because they speak it from a place of authority. They speak it from a place of best interest, they speak it from a place of. They understand where you're going and they understand the place that God has in their life. They understand their mission. They understand that and so, understanding their mission they're. They don't buckle because you get so in a higher level. They don't impress with you, I'm impressed. They know that if I don't celebrate you, absolutely, absolutely, they'll celebrate you. But they don't falter because you reached a level that surpassed them, right.

Dr. Robert Dowell 31:33

This good. Let me say this power man. This is so good because, so what you're saying is because some people don't have the grace for that space in your life. So there's a certain space in your life, well, you need people to see your blind spot, so they don't have the grace for that space. And what happens? Because it's a blind spot, you don't even know that you have a need of that thing.

Dr. Robert Dowell 31:58

See this, why I said you see, I've seen ministries crumble. Because it could have that, because that leader, that you lost respect for an honor, that maybe they couldn't take you to the next level in this or that, but what they could have done they might not have can taking you to a next level, but they could have gave you some victories over some devils. That's it. Because they would say, hey, watch, watch for her. Hey, they don't know that, don't know. No, no, no, when you're traveling, you need to watch out for that. Hey, hey, hey, I know you're going. That's in terms of, let's say, spiritual mothers and fathers that are healthy. We're not talking about, you know, controlling toxic when we talk about mentors and leaders, overseers, why? Because now that mother, that mentor, that that first lady, whatever we call that you disconnect from that pastor, whatever they can see as being a older or more experienced, how, that you need to still take care of the home front, even though you're traveling and you evangelizing. They could give it at wisdom that sometime you might need to go in that kitchen. Now I know you're traveling. I know you something sometimes your man need a, just a home cook meal. He could have told you, I know you buy on the cars and I know you doing all this, but you, you, you may need to sometime. She like crocheting, she like fishing. You need to take it to the fish, but with all your thousands and all the stuff you're doing, you need to take her and put a worm on the hook.

Dr. Robert Dowell 33:27

See, it's a level of blind spot that you don't even know elder powers that you don't even know that you, you, you're missing because you don't have that person in your blind spot, because you disconnected from them, because, because you felt you're gifting your talent, all those things you brought out, you didn't value the other thing that they could have brought to the table. And this is what happens Sometime other people in your life, they only care about you because of what you bring to the table. You know why you're hot and popping and gifting. You're good, but after all that is gone, hmm, I'm gonna take the prodigal son and now you left with nothing because they really weren't authentic relationships. Sometimes it's like a spiritual geek. It's transactional relationship. See, when you have a true mentor, leader, recovering, those things are our relationship, elder powers not transactional, transactional. It's like it's a relationship based on what you bring to the table and when you no longer bring anything to the table, there's no, no relationship. This is transaction. See it when it's, when it's true, authentic man, it ain't nothing. Now, if it becomes cononia, it becomes like no, you know, we're here, you know, and that's when it's, and that's why that's what real mentors Do for you.

Dr. Robert Dowell 34:59

Those that you said that Haven't came to that point and we want to deal with that when it comes to that point sometime where there is a season, it is a toxic thing, but I think we haven't had this broader conversation and Landed out this way, because many times what people are here, you just stay. You just don't matter what going on, you stay and what you do is it's almost like the principle of David, saul and Jonathan, david, always honored. You know, saul, he honored him, all this javelin throwing. But then there's another part of that that you don't want to. You don't want to be like Jonathan. He died in Saul's house. He died, man, he died. You don't want to die in Salt House either. You don't want a loyalty to a fault. You die in your vision. You die in your ministry. You die because you're like I'm staying and I'm staying, I'm staying, I'm, that's it, I'm staying. So this is why we got to have, we have to have that conversation, because some need to stay and get that authentic and some need to move on. And this is what I say, this is how we do it.

Dr. Robert Dowell 36:20

Sometime now, let's bring some wisdom to the table, since it can be difficult. How do we navigate in this? What are some things we need to do? Let's talk about that from a mentee's side of point of view. When you feel your leader, you've outgrown your leader. So what do I do?

Navigating Mentorship and Leadership Dynamics

Dr. Robert Dowell 36:36

This one thing I say I found out that you have to realize that it's okay to eat off of other tables. See if you have a healthy leader. This is the signs. Thank you, lord. This is the signs where you can know where it might be a season or if it's toxic when you begin to have these conversations, because if you feel like there's something you legitimately need that your leader might not be able to give you once you have those conversations, or is it just apparent that they don't have it to give you Some things? It's just apparent they don't flow in that function. You know what I mean. They haven't been out the state and God has called you to the nations. They're not even on social media and they have no concept of email automation or getting a lead magnet, dealing with pain points and doing an offer. They have no idea of what you're talking about. So you know some things, so you have to realize it's okay to eat off of the tables.

Dr. Robert Dowell 37:45

So when you begin to have a conversation with the leaders and they begin to let you know that maybe something that you need, you may need to connect with other mentors. You may need to become a part of other organizations. You may need to connect with other tribes so that you can get what you need. Your house may not flow in the prophetic, like you feel, or the apostolic or social justice. You have a need for that, and so you might need to connect with other organization mentor so that they could do that. And if it's a healthy leader, other powers, my people, if I'm a healthy leader, if they need. I'm not jealous of that, I'm not envious of that. I don't try to control that that you dare not go outside the house, you dare not connect with that organization. How are you going to go be a part of that and you're part of this. That's when the control comes in. Now you might have a toxic leader.

Dr. Robert Dowell 38:45

Now I think this is what some of the problems come in with Elder Pile when people begin to try to get that control that you can't go here and you can't go eat off that table. You can't be a part of that, that control. And then not under control, now they begin to throw javelins at you. You're still trying to be honorable, but now you connected with a person or people that can help take you to that next level, that can help pull into you. Now that they're throwing javelins, now they're disparaging you, they're clowning you. Now you get in the cold shoulder, you get black ball because you're not loyal, because now you're going to somebody else camp and because that leader don't connect with them, they don't roll with them, they're not a part of that. They're not. They want to deny you of that.

Dr. Robert Dowell 39:38

I'm not talking about in terms of maybe you're, if you're in a local church Sunday mornings, but I'm talking about additional things. That doesn't take you away from your duties and what you have If you're part of a covering church, in your bishop, you still support your organization, you still support your conference, your convocation. But now, not only do you support your conference, your convocation, but now, rather than disconnecting, now I'm going to go to here. I want to go see what they're doing here, darius Daniel man, I want to see that. Or what somebody's doing at Union Church. I want to go check out of Ivy Hillia. Or I want to go check out what they flow more than prophetic man, I want to go see what, john Eckhart, what they're doing, and so you may eat off other tables and other streams, but you still realize your commitment and your first to that and I think that's a wisdom and a conversation. I think people don't have in those rims to do that, but when the leader don't do that, then it's that the toxic in that.

Elder James Powers 40:45

Absolutely, absolutely Pass. I think with that too, as you're communicating with your, with your leader, your mentor, a good leader is always going to have a referral. Right, they're going to refer you out. They're going to. They know somebody, that knows somebody, or they have a wisdom in where you can go. Right, they, they're going to refer, they don't mind referring you out because they have your best interests at heart and they, they, they should be self aware of what they can and can't give you. That's good and a healthy leader, then good, healthy leader.

Dr. Robert Dowell 41:21

When you begin to matriculate this, it's going to let you know that you may be on the other side, like we're talking about elder powers, where they may need to chuck the deuces they may need to, maybe a season thing. Well, that it may be that correct? Am I right about it?

Elder James Powers 41:35

Absolutely. And so that's why I say if, if they're willing to allow you to go, like you said, and if they're willing to refer, referral, give you a good referral, hey, you might want to connect with this person or connect. Why don't you try connect? Cause they don't. They don't have no, they don't have an agenda by keeping you close and controlling you.

Dr. Robert Dowell 41:55

They don't have an agenda, so they don't mind you going out, seeking and searching, finding a solution, Our healthy leader that made them look bad cause I you're supposed to get what you get from me. I teach you about the prophetic, I teach you about they know the automation anyway, and they know all in the digital stuff anyway, and they know all in going places about being where you at. I teach them. You don't need to do all that stuff. You're doing the most.

Elder James Powers 42:21

You know, the far as I know, pastor is only one one that can give everything to everybody. And he ain't here. Well, he's here, but he he's not here in the flesh. So, so, so that's the thing Like. So we're not able to give everybody everything. We, we can't give everybody, we don't have the capacity to give you everything. Right? God didn't put you in, you know, he didn't put you in that person's life for you to give them everything. Right? You give them what you're, what you are called to give them, and then they're able to get other things from everybody else. Right? That's what it's designed to do. They got to go out and search and find out who else have the things that they want. And if that leader can't allow you to do that, then it's probably time for you to find someone else to, to mentor you.

Dr. Robert Dowell 43:18

Or cover you. It needs to be a prayer, like a conversation with God. That's when you need to be thinking about it. See, I don't take that lightly, you know, when we disconnect and move. But there comes a place in a space because, see, that's how people stay in places and die Absolutely. That's why I'm excited about the high food food, so we can help be a supplement, we can be a aid to help people get, maybe, what they're not needing. Not having these conversations, elderflowers not knowing what to do.

Elder James Powers 43:47

So, so there's a lot of ministers right now that may have a heavy heart, heavily burdened, because, think about it, it's not hard, it's not easy to walk away. You're talking about people that's poured into your life, who you care about, who you, who you respect, who you love. It's not, it's not easy to walk away, but you have to love yourself enough. After doing everything you could do, after you've had the conversation with God, after you had the conversation with your leader, after you've been there and you realize that it's a controlling and toxic environment, when you've been there and you've done everything you can and even potentially had conversations with another mentor of yours right, with another mentor that you may have seeking advice, who has a wise counsel, right After you've done all you can do, it may be time to move on. It may be time for you to get the covering that you truly need and that person has, because sometimes there are some leaders that turns have a Saul's heart that they, they heart just turned they were jabbeling

Elder James Powers 44:57

because here's the thing some leaders, when they get to be toxic like that, they see you coming and they may feel like, oh, he trying to take my spot. Take my position. Because, truth be told and just being honest, some, some mentors, they, they want to die in their position. They don't want anybody, they don't want a successor, they don't want they're going to be 90 plus years old without a successor, right. And so if you have somebody like that, you got to realize, after you've done all you can, you got to have the courage to find another cover, because it's hard to do that.

Leadership Mentoring and Avoiding Jealousy

Dr. Robert Dowell 45:36

Yeah, and that's good. Let's help the five full ministers and that on both sides. It's one day they're going to be mentors, one day you might be being a mentee. Now Some things, what to do and not to do. Let's have that discussion, some things that the mentor should do, things that the mentee should do, some things that the mentor shouldn't do and the mentee shouldn't do. Let's kind of had a discussion so we can have this conversation to help people in it.

Dr. Robert Dowell 46:10

And one thing I'm seeing in this is, when you were a mentor, you need and that's why we need teaching and training these conversations Five full food. Because listen, as a mentor, what you want to do. You need self-awareness, meaning that you need to be aware of your strength, your weaknesses, who you are, what you're not. It's being aware, being cognizant, knowing you know what your boundaries, where you are and when you are aware of who you are, then you're not intimidated of what you're not. And so you need a self-awareness that you don't. You can't give them everything. So, as a parent, my thing with my boys is the things that I don't know. Maybe I should have learned them, but I didn't get them. Somewhere down the road. I didn't pick up that skill. My thing with my boys are grown and grown now is that I connected them with other people. Hey man, they good with handyman stuff. So I want them to mentor because I was securing who I was. I didn't have a problem with somebody else teaching my kids something you know, and so that's why a leader need to have a leader. That's why you need food now to get secure. So when you become the senior leader other leader then you won't be like Saul. That's why we see repeated patterns, elder pals, because you never got security, self-awareness. So now there's a jealousy.

Dr. Robert Dowell 47:41

A good leader, a real leader, they want to see those that they mentor, their sons, their daughters, those that are under them, or whatever term we use. They want to see them excel. I want my boys to do better than their pops. I don't want to be like I'm the grand poop. No, I want my boys to do better. I want them to go farther. I want those that I mentor to stand higher. Why? Because I don't mind them standing on my shoulders. I want them to stand higher.

Dr. Robert Dowell 48:17

Why? It's not about me, it's about the next, and that's a sign of a healthy leader. That's the mentality you got to have that we're not competing, no, it is in that. That's when we have to have healthy leaders, and so that's the mindset that a leader need to have, that I want to see you succeed, I want to see you, not a jealous thing, and so that's why we got to make sure leaders in that. And so let me hit that. Why do you think, elder pals, from your perspective, why would a leader, why would it be jealous? Why would there be jealous? I'm thinking because they don't have self-awareness, they don't know who they are. Why would you be jealous and not want to see your people excel and connect them and go for it? Why wouldn't you?

Elder James Powers 49:01

Well, I never experienced it internally Because I've never been jealous of someone that I'm leading. I'm kind of like how you mentioned you want your children, you want people that you lead to be better than you. I was taught that way so it's hard to understand that, but I have seen it. Some are jealous of their gift and talent. Some are because there is gift. The gifts make room for you and it's everywhere you go you see that person have favor.

Elder James Powers 49:42

You had to get it out the mud. You had to start with two people. You had to preach in your garage, and so what you're doing now you're comparing the hardness that you had to go through compared to what they had to go through. And since they didn't go through what you went through, you jealous of how God blessed them at that level. And, in truth, be told, god took you through that path because there was something that he wanted to teach and train you to make you strong enough to be where you are because of what you had to go through, because what we go through is tied to our purpose, and so you may see that and you may think that that person have to go through everything you went through. And since they didn't.

Elder James Powers 50:30

You may feel like I got to come down on this person, I got to mistreat them because they didn't have to deal with the things that you had to deal with, and you're thinking they can't last because they didn't deal with the same, they didn't have the same path as you, and so I can see how that jealousy can creep in because of the comparison thing, because of the experience that you had in ministry. It don't compare to theirs, and so now you jealous of them because you think they got it easy. And so now you come down on them and you feel like you got to make the situation tough or harder than it should be, when, all actuality, you still have the ability to pour into them, even if they got it a little bit easy. Right, because Saul's route was different than David's route, it was just totally different.

Elder James Powers 51:26

And so you have to take your experience of getting it out of the mud and teach this individual because this person may be complacent and God may have put you and took you through the mud so you can teach this person that, hey, although you got it easy, you want to be able to maintain this and you got to grind to maintain it, so he might have put you in his life just for that reason. God may have took you through the mud, had you go through the garage. So now you can train this person and keep them grounded and keep them. Let them know that, hey, you might have gotten easy, but I can show you how to maintain it. So why don't you miss what God was showing, trying to get you to teach that person? Because you're jealous.

Dr. Robert Dowell 52:06

Good food, five-fold food. They don't have to go through what you went through to get to where you got to and sometimes you don't have that understanding then I think you can get out of bounds and become jealous when they don't and hold them back. I think, too, what we have to always do I think you mentioned it is, I think, given that honor Mentees, no matter how it goes, you want to always still honor. David always honors all. That's why he felt bad when he even cut part of his you know his garment off. He felt bad because when they would cut a part of the garment off, that was like when they say, in his train, field of temple sometime, it's like they would when they conquered kings. They would like toss you know part of the garment and showing that they got victory. So it's kind of like he was disrespecting him like I got you. That's why he felt bad about it. It's like why he felt bad Because that's what you do when you defeat somebody you know you cut the garment and you are tied on to yours and the sign of your victory. So there's always need to be an honor, no matter what. To the end, I think it needs to be an honor. I need to be like you said prayerful conversation. I think you need to try to see what value that they can bring. You want to begin to eat off other tables and then you get to realize too that the law of the place that you, you, sometimes seasons, do change, and this is what you have to realize. Sometimes some people are just in your life for a season and we have to realize that we don't own people and we have to. This is how I always framed it in my mind.

Dr. Robert Dowell 53:46

I think sometimes leaders get, they get hurt, and that's what they. They want to hold on. You have to realize that everybody has the right to seek their, seek God, follow him and make the decision that they feel or in the best interest of their life. And sometime that might not always go with your plan, your dream, you know. You thought they were going to play piano for you. You need to be an, a player. Now they go somewhere and they already got to.

Dr. Robert Dowell 54:20

I know it seemed unfair. It don't seem right, right that they go somewhere and you need them, but you have to realize God is God and you have to be okay that everybody has the right to make the decision and this is my, my thing as we get ready to bring this podcast to an end, keith is this this is why we need this food, as as ministers and leaders. That's why you need to always be on a growth trajectory yourself, meaning that you don't want a flat line. You always want to try to be steps ahead of those that you lead and you mentor, not competing, but growing in your lane and your dimension, because it's the law to live. I don't want to be a lead to the people that I lead, so I have to always up my game, not competing, not saying I need to do more than this one. I need to do it. No, I need to be on my game. That's what self awareness, my gifting, what I'm called to do, my assignment that I want to grow and be on a growth trajectory in my assignment. That's why I don't five-fold food, why you need to grow as a leader. You may need to grow in your prophetic dimension, discernment, your apostolic dimension, reaching out beyond your borders. So you want to always be on a growth trajectory so that you won't become a lead when people get into them, places where they don't know if you're still bringing value in their life. So that's the thing you know you should. Are you still growing? Some leaders have stopped growing and now you can't be upset because when you stop growing, there's an expiration date on your success. It will expire at a certain time. You're doing church like they did in 1980 and it expired, and so that's why we always need to have that growth. So that's why I said leaders need to grow and to always have those conversations with people and to celebrate them and don't look at it as a competition thing. And so that's what I think.

Dr. Robert Dowell 56:36

When the minister outgrow, the leaders, one day you might outgrow in some areas, but is it all areas? You might have outgrown in some areas. So sometime, I think there need to be a conversation, there need to be some things. I think we've helped some people today. We want to hear from you. Be sure you share with us in the comments. Email us, write us. You can see in the show notes how you can contact us. You can reach me at nlfpastor1 at sbcglobalnet. You can reach me at nlfpastor1 at gmailcom. You can also look in the show notes as well. You should maybe get an email. We want to hear from you. Give us your comments. We want to be able to serve you and give you the food that you need to succeed as a minister. Anything else hits your heart. Concerning this topic, elder Powell's, when leaders, ministers, outgrow their mentor or the leader.

Elder James Powers 57:37

Yes, sir, I think when it comes to self-development, you've got to be willing to change, not stay the same, because if you're not willing to change, you're not going to move with the time. There are some lessons that COVID did teach us. It taught us that you have to be willing to change and not stay the same, because if your ministry, everything will die, even the people underneath you. You have to be willing to change to show them that, hey, this is the requirement, this is what it takes, because you're leading the way. Every time that there's a technology, if there's a move, you have to be willing to change with it. That's the reason why. That's what caused leaders to get stuck and not develop because they're not willing to change, they're not willing to do anything different and they remain the same.

Dr. Robert Dowell 58:35

Hold on now, hold on now. It's this one new podcast. I thought it was the power of the Holy Ghost, the word, the blood. You're talking about technology and changing with stuff like that. What about, just don't we? This is the power, right here, preacher. It is the power.

Elder James Powers 58:53

It is the power.

Dr. Robert Dowell 58:56

I mean. So is that the problem? You're talking about technology, but it's the power. This is what changed lives right here.

Elder James Powers 59:04

Not a live stream.

Dr. Robert Dowell 59:06

What you're talking about technology seems like you're just trying to be with the latest fad and email and. Instagram and Canva and all these other. I don't know what y'all call these things.

Elder James Powers 59:20

The power of technology gives us the opportunity to speak about the word of God in more states than the one we're in right now. So we're in Oklahoma and right now this podcast, it can go across the world. It's going and it can change lives. And we're talking about ministry, and we're talking about helping people who may be struggling or burdened down in ministry.

Dr. Robert Dowell 59:48

So, without this technology, we will be limited, and so that's why we're talking about it, just me and you having this conversation in Buffalo, wild Wings. Right, just me and you talking about it and I'm helping you. Right, but it's limited to that. I think this is a good conversation.

Elder James Powers 1:00:04

It's limited. It's limited, you at your house, I'm at my house. But we having this conversation that can go out in the world, right, and we're still honoring God and we're still glorifying God, right. So we're doing it with the technology that he gave man the ability to utilize. And so you can deny the technology right and be stubborn, deny the technology, deny the change and the move. And that's the reason why some of the people that we mentor are trying to tell you pastor, why don't we get on YouTube? Why don't we do? Apostle, absolutely Oversea Every mentor, leader, spiritual leader. Why don't we do? And you deny it because you're not willing to change. And now what you've done is you cause that person to feel like I need to move on to somewhere who's willing to lead it.

Dr. Robert Dowell 1:00:59

Absolutely Cool. That's good wisdom. And what I hear in that Elder Powers is you refuse to upgrade. Yes, sir, it's not just technology. That's why we need to five full food upgrade in your leadership, upgrade in the prophetic, upgrade in the anointing. Upgrade in your in impacting, upgrading your preaching, upgrading your teaching, knowing the difference between preaching and teaching. Upgrade in your in your training people. Upgrade in your disciple, in people.

Dr. Robert Dowell 1:01:42

In that there's upgrades that we need, but it's easy to stay the same and this is when. That's when we can become a problem because we don't want to grow and we don't want to grow, we don't want to go, we don't want to upgrade. And I believe that's why and I'm, I'm, I'm speaking God's releasing an upgrade over your life, that there's a spirit of upgrade. As you're listening to the five full, full podcast, you're watching it, we decree declare that there's going to be upgrades in your life, that you won't stay in the same place. You won't be the leader over your organization, in your ministry, whatever ministry, god has given you a senior leader, organization leader or whatever you do, your paratrooper, whatever overseer that you want me. But there'll be a spirit of upgrade that we're speaking over you. Why? Because as you get the food that you need, you will succeed. Now the power.

Dr. Robert Dowell 1:02:34

That's our endeavor in the five full food, as we're dealing with those, those topics, so that you won't have that dilemma. Yeah, with mentors, and sometimes you may do all that and people still, season may change, but when you upgrade and you understand it, you realize what God has for you. It is for you and people don't belong to you and you become a healthy leader. Your final thoughts? Elder powers. Man, this has been awesome today, man, we're not out of a topic, we're just out of time and I'm looking forward to me and you chopping it up again on the five full food. What are your final thoughts?

Elder James Powers 1:03:11

This has been an awesome topic to speak about. I wish more people had this and I wish more people had leaders that were open to learn and to grow and to provide platforms like this to the individual that they're a mentor. I'm thankful and grateful to my leader, which is you, that you're open enough to be able to share and dialogue and learn and grow together. I believe that if you're a mentor out there, sometimes it takes a little bit of humility, but if you're a mentor out there, you have to be willing to grow in order for you to allow the people underneath you to grow. I hope this podcast helped you, I hope it touched you and I hope it helps the individuals that you're leading.

Dr. Robert Dowell 1:04:20

Well said, wonderful. We're here for you. Reach out to us. We've got resources, whether there's courses, books, that, any way that we can help you in that growth and that development. From your standpoint of the prouds. You don't see a lot of people getting this day. That seemed to be heartfelt, that you said you wish more had it. Where did that come from? That seemed to be heartfelt from you right there.

Elder James Powers 1:04:42

To be honest with you, this was the first place that I did receive it. Most individuals they'll preach and you kind of just have to get it. They will. You know some.

Dr. Robert Dowell 1:04:56

What do you mean by that? What do you mean they have to get it. Tell them what we're doing. What do we do? We break down film, right.

Elder James Powers 1:05:03

We break it all the way down. We talk about intro of your message. We talking about how to study for your message. We talk about how to break down scriptures. We talk about how to prepare a message for five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 30, 45 minutes, while we deal with all the aspects of preaching a message, not just, hey, I'm a preacher message, you see it, then you emulate it and you go and do it. No, we talk about all aspects and I know in the five-fold food maybe some of these things are going to come out. They will, I knew they would.

Elder James Powers 1:05:50

But that's the thing. When you have leadership like this, it will help you grow and get to where you want to go to in life. So I've never seen it in other places. I've never seen leadership talk. The leadership that I learned prior to coming here were the military, and then I brought what I learned in the military and I realized how leadership work in the church and put it together.

Elder James Powers 1:06:17

But in some places they struggle in leadership. They struggle in the kingly side. They're good at the priestly side, they can teach and they can preach, but they don't know how to lead men. So we're talking pastors and that's not to put anybody down, but if you never had, you was gifted and you can preach, but you've never had any leadership qualities and never been taught how you're going to lead. So this is so important to the body of Christ because it's breaking down things that people don't get. Your gifts and talent can get you to a certain position, but now you need to grow and develop in the areas of where you weak at, and I believe this podcast can help you strengthen in areas to where you may need some assistance.

Dr. Robert Dowell 1:07:09

It will, and that's why we need leadership food. We pray that you've enjoyed today's podcast. We certainly look forward to being with you again. Be sure that you do Like and subscribe If you're watching YouTube, if you're listening, be sure that you do subscribe so that way you will be able to get all of our podcasts. Also, you can visit our webpage at fivefoldfoodcom. Be sure that you support. We would love for your support so we can continue to expand on what we're doing in the podcast. You'll see a link there.

Dr. Robert Dowell 1:07:41

If you want to support any gift, of any amount, we'll appreciate it. Write us, let us know your questions, some things that you would like to know. We love hearing from you. We're excited about all that God is doing, that you are contacting us and letting us know, and we'll be sharing some of those things here online. God bless you and never forget that God has a plan and a destiny for your life and I believe, as you continue to feed on the word of God, you continue to feed on this fivefold food, you're going to be able to eat well, you're going to excel and I'm excited that you're going to live better. You're going to do better. You're going to experience and release all the brilliance that God has put in you. Until our next time together, look forward to seeing you. God bless you.