Avoiding Mentor and Mentee Pitfalls

Are you ready to elevate your mentor-mentee relationship to a level of utmost effectiveness and success? This compelling episode of Five Fold Food features my guest, the insightful Pastor Jacobi Crowley, who is a generational pastor with a wealth of experience and wisdom in this area. We dig deep into the dynamics that shape these relationships, sharing our personal experiences and shedding light on the challenges and pitfalls that often go unnoticed. 

We dissect the importance of sensitivity, respect for boundaries, and open communication in mentor-mentee relationships, with Pastor Jacoby emphasizing the key role of bridging the generation gap. A power dynamic, we discuss, can lead to significant issues, including the misuse of authority and a disregard for the mentee's time and commitments. A incident found on social media involving a pastor publicly reprimanding his mentee serves as a timely reminder of the importance of humility, respect, and responsibility on the part of the mentor. 

In the latter section of this episode, we steer the conversation towards the essential elements of effective mentorship. From setting clear boundaries and understanding the mentee's needs, to nurturing their growth with care, we leave no stone unturned. Our discussion is peppered with practical tips, including the implementation of a time management system, the creation of plans, and the use of templates. This episode is a must-listen for anyone keen on fostering successful mentor-mentee relationships. Don't miss out on this opportunity to add new dimensions to your mentoring skills.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:04

Welcome to the Five Fold Food Podcast hosted by Dr Robert F Dowell, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment they need to succeed. The Word of God declares and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry edifying of the body of Christ. Prepare to receive revelation, wisdom and insight to empower your ministry for victory. Now let's eat.

Dr. Dowell 0:37

Praise the Lord and God bless you. Welcome to Five Fold Food. I'm your host, dr Robert F Dial. I'm so delighted that you've chosen to be with us for this podcast, five Fold Food, where the Five Fold Minister can eat well so that they can excel. I'm excited for all of you all that are with us in this episode. If you are listening on Spotify, itunes, whatever you're listening on podcasts your podcast. Be sure that you do subscribe so that you can get all the latest podcasts. Be sure that you do go and leave us a review, give us a five-star rating so that it helps us in the algorithm and it helps the podcast spread out. So we look forward to you doing that. If you're one of our video podcast watchers and you're watching this on YouTube, be sure that you subscribe as well so that you can get our latest podcast. Be sure you drop us a comment, send us an email. Let us know how you're doing. We're excited about it. If you want to email us, you can email me at nlfpasta1 at sbcglobalnet. That's nlfpasta1 at sbcglobalnet. Also, you can email me at nlfpasta1 at gmailcom.

Dr. Dowell 1:56

I'm excited about today's podcast. I want to bring in to our studio to be on this podcast. I'm so excited about having him. Pastor Jacoby, how are we doing today? Glad to have you I think you might need to unmute Glad to have you in on our podcast today. How are we doing, pastor Jacoby? I'm doing good, pastor. How are you? I'm excited to have you here. For those that may not know you, pastor Jacoby, can you just kind of tell us a little bit about who you are, and so for our listeners that are with us I know we had you on one of our other podcasts and we're so excited about it I can give you an opportunity to just kind of share who is Pastor Jacoby.

Pastor Jacobi 2:41

All right. Well, my name is Pastor Jacobi. I'm the generational pastor here at New Life Fellowship Church. I'm also the executive director at the Boys and Girls Club. I am a proud father of Naomi Rose and the proud husband of Rachelle Crowley, the basketball coach at Cash.

Dr. Dowell 2:59

Bulldogs, Okay, In the great state of Oklahoma. So, as wife is a coach and you're the director of the Boys and Girls Club and doing a phenomenal job as our generational pastor. And somebody said what's the generational pastor? Well, they helped bridge the generation to gap. I can pull into the generation Y and help the youth, but at the same time, I can pull the minister to my generation your generation being generation millennials. But also I can touch those exes and even those baby boomers. I can cross the generation. So I am a generational pastor and so you do a great job at that, Pastor Jacoby. Thank you, Thank you, Amen.

Dr. Dowell 3:40

I'm excited about our podcast today and we want to get right into it. You know, our desire in the five-fold food is to serve up a meal and so that our five-fold ministers can get the food that they need that they normally don't get, because on Sunday morning we're getting sheep food, we're getting discipleship food, which we all need. That I'm excited about five-fold food Today. In today's podcast, we're going to be dealing with avoiding mentor and mentee pitfalls. You know we've been in this discussion in some of our previous podcasts and I think God just still have us in this vein. We're talking about mentorship because, Pastor Jacoby, that's part of what we're doing in the five-fold food podcast. It serves, as you would, as a surrogate mentor for those that need mentorship that don't have it, don't have people in their life. They can get mentorship from afar and they can learn from this platform. But when I think about avoiding mentor and mentee pitfalls, first of all I think about mistakes that need to be avoided, that you know some of the pitfalls that mentors make in dealing with mentors, and I think one of the mistakes to go with pitfalls that need to be avoided, I think, for mentors is that I've seen some mentors that don't have a sensitivity and because we haven't had conversations, they're not in a room and so they never get that food that if you're going to mentor someone, there need to be a sensitivity to their time, to what they have going on in their life, to those things. Because if you don't have that sensitivity, you can think as a mentor, it's just all about you, you know, and I think it has to be that sensitivity.

Dr. Dowell 5:32

I remember just recently one of our elders within the church. I had something that came up at the last minute, something that I wanted to, I was thinking about doing and I had asked him you know, to be a part of it to do it and he was all excited about it. But he let me know. He said, man, fast, this is great, but I got something else that I had planned and it was something that he had planned with his spouse. And he let me know and I'm like, oh man, okay, no problem at all.

Dr. Dowell 6:02

Because I believe there had to be a sensitivity that when things are not planned, or even though things are planned, you have to be sensitive to what the mentor has going on in their life. And if it's not a sensitivity, then you could one rough shot over the life and I think that's a pitfall. That's when we move into what we talked about one of our other podcasts. We get over into abuse, we get over into that misuse, because it's not a sensitivity. When you think about this, how do you feel in that passage code, as we have this conversation, Because there's always revelation in the conversation what issue have you seen? That and maybe others lives, what do you think about that when you think about that?

Pastor Jacobi 6:41

sensitivity thing. I think it's important, like you said, to have sensitivity as a mentor in a mentee I think on both sides because both can be abused on each level. A mentor can abuse their not be, not have a sensitivity directed towards the mentee and the aspects of time boundaries, all those different frameworks and so like. Even looking at our relationship and we talked about before, when I first, when you first, when you first started mentoring me, I was single. Now I'm married. It's a different, it's a different level and you know you, being a married mentor, you understand those. So you gave me some some great knowledge and say, hey, you need to set these parameters now so that things won't happen in the future or if something comes up, you have your priority structure.

Dr. Dowell 7:33

What do you mean by that kind of break that down?

Pastor Jacobi 7:34

so we can just, for example, like you say, hey, you know, you know the, hey, jacobi, I got this project. Hey, you know, are you available and free? You know that, may, I may be available and free, but I didn't think about you know, hold, let me check with my wife to see if she has something playing, if we have something scheduled for that timeframe. And now, as a mentee or mentor mentee, you're excited for that opportunity to have that relationship or time with your mentor, but you sometimes you can put other things off, and so, on the mentor aspects of it, you have to make sure that the mentee is aligned. And then on the mentee's aspects of it, you got to make sure that you're aligned so it won't be a conflict of boundaries because it can be abused without even realizing that it's abused.

Pastor Jacobi 8:22

Yeah, I just called you. I thought you said you was available, but you didn't have any sensitivity to think. This is a married person. They have a spouse. They have to make sure that their spouse is good before they just jump and do what you've asked them to do or get into those particular conversations. It has to be a balance on both sides and a lot of times, if you're not sensitive to that and you're just so gone. Hold on to mentorship and it could be at any level ministry, a network. It can go to business anything Cause a lot of times when you get excited about something, you get excited about something. People call me about football, I get excited, you calling me, me about football and you like.

Dr. Dowell 9:00

Cause you're a coach as well.

Pastor Jacobi 9:02

I'm a coach, so it's like you know, if I hey, let's go to the game, but I got a date night on Friday, I can't go, mentally, I know I can't go, so at the end of the day, but that's it, that's a pit father of boy, you know, and you, you, you, you, you, you're mental and also you just giving them that, uh, that sensitivity directed towards it. Now I got a question passed you. Let me let me.

Dr. Dowell 9:25

Hold that just a second, don't lose it. Oh, cause I know you could hold that, cause it is hit me, cause I love having these conversations, that we could have them where everybody can get in the room, cause these are conversations we have, so that you know that's part of my mentorship with you, that we just have conversations and we deal with different topics that we think are relevant, you know, and so this is a one way we kind of model that you hit a key point and I thought that was good, that the uh, the sensitivity, how abuse could come, and it don't come intentionally, because the mentor need to be sensitive to the mentee, that they're all excited, yes, and so, and in that that's so good that they have to have that wisdom and understanding to make sure that they they don't go overboard. That you like. Hey, jokoby, you need to make sure you're spending time with your wife, you need to make sure you're spending time with your kids. It's part of the mentee mentors responsibility to protect the mentee. That's what I'm getting, jokoby. See, that's a pitfall, not knowing that that's part of your responsibility. It's kind of like this in sports. We know this in sports that many times they say if you have a player that he loves football, he loves the team, he's all about winning that. Sometime, in an effort to protect the player, the coach have to say, no, we're going to take his helmet, we're going to make the decision. You're not going back in the game Because if I don't protect you from you, you'll go out there and for the injury yourself, because that's just how you build.

Dr. Dowell 10:56

Mentors have to have that mindset because if a mentee found their zone, their gift zone, their area prophetic, apostolic or whatever they're trying to learn maybe systems, they're trying to learn the business aspect of ministry, maybe automation aspect, whatever they're excited in getting that mentorship. If the mentor is not sensitive to protect them from themselves. That's how we say it. You got to do that. I never thought about that. Like you said, that could be a pitfall, jokoby, not even protecting them. You should be the wise one to let them know like, hey, let's make sure we keep this thing in balance. To have those conversations how you doing, you spending, you cooking up, you taking care of your husband you know what I mean. I know we doing this and you following me here, those that are mentoring ladies and other ladies How's it going? Are you going to your kids game How's things at home and not taking those things for granted just because they're doing all the things that you want them to do as a mentor?

Sensitivity and Boundaries in Mentorship

Pastor Jacobi 11:57

Yep, that's good, that's good and that, like I said, I think, just ultimately, you have to be sensitive towards that. But I think, too, we talk about exposure, towards being sensitive towards something, because if you have been exposed towards a mentor that necessarily abuse their overall ability to mentor you in their time and not being sensitive towards your time, not being sensitive towards your own space, and they basically abuse that, then we run into problems. And so there's you had a question, you had a question. My question was like you know, because me and you have had a great relationship and mentorship and you've never, you know, abused or you know, you were always sensitive to your time.

Dr. Dowell 12:43

Like hey let me give you some big time. But don't lose the thought, though I don't know me and you talking about the other day, but maybe me and one of the elders is like, oh, me and my wife was just saying not sensitive If I just say, jacobi, can you go to Wal-Mart, go to Wal-Mart, get me some grapes and some bananas, and stop by Burger King too. I got to taste, you know, fries and a wapa, you know, and they do that kind of stuff just because you have some authority to do it. Yep, you know, asking someone to go, you know, I would have get some from the Cheesecake Factory for me, and I meant people do that kind of stuff. They, they, they cannot be sensitive that, oh, they can just tell me no. No, you need to be sensitive to protect because they're honoring you and value you. I'm mindful of what I ask for people to do. You have to take carefully the authority and the influence that God has given you that I dare not abuse it.

Dr. Dowell 13:45

That I dare not just say hey, jacobi, you mind getting this? Go, you know, come and wash my car, come and get my cleaners. It's different if I'm busy and I'm coming in off the road and I'm busy and I don't have time and I'm going to miss the deadline, but just out of mere convenience. We don't do that with our mentors because we want to be sensitive to that. So I don't want to throw you off, but that just hit me. I wanted to lay out some practicalities, how, unfortunately, we can see that thing play out, and not because mentors have a bad heart, because nobody ever told them, they never had these conversations to know that, yeah, I got to be mindful that I don't abuse or misuse my authority, and be mindful because people will do what I ask.

Pastor Jacobi 14:29

Yes, and and, and, and, and passing, I'm going to add that and then I got a question behind it. You also got to be mindful that these people are people, and so don't get upset and mad when you open up that door and then you ask them to go get you a donut and some coffee because you don't want to go do it, and they say no.

Dr. Dowell 14:46

And then now I'm not able to.

Pastor Jacobi 14:49

It's not I can't do it, I just hey, I got other things that are going on. And then you get upset off the basis of now, oh, you're not, you're not, you know beating it. Oh you, you're not, you know you're not being in line, you're not. Now we throwing out these, more of the, these phrases that are more catch phrases in the aspects of saying you're just not doing what I asked you to do because I want you to do that, and then you run into fences and you know, and more obstacles that you're running to within the mentee and the mentor aspects of it, but my question is too.

The Impact of Mentorship on Success

Dr. Dowell 15:21

So the thing is, I'm okay with my leaders, mentors telling me no in the respectful way. It's like. It's like the leader like man, I'm excited fast, but man, I ain't gonna be able to do it. I got you know. My thing is like how it's like no, I'm glad because I want to keep relationship with your family, your kids, and so you have to be okay with no. How many know mentors, leaders, bishops, apostles we're not God. People can tell us no.

Pastor Jacobi 15:53

People can respectfully tell us no, yes, that's a love you, I'm not just can't.

Dr. Dowell 16:00

It's not possible.

Pastor Jacobi 16:02

I can't Sorry. You know I got other things, but I have a question. My question was were you exposed to good mentorship that had the parameters in the boundaries already established, or did you go through it the hard way where it's like you was more exposed towards mentorship that didn't have that and you had to basically set that up for yourself?

Dr. Dowell 16:30

No, I've been blessed. I had perfect mentors, you know. But I've been blessed First of all with my father in the faith, apostle Nathaniel Hockham. Bishop Hockham, the founder of CCI, covenant Connections International out of Colleen, texas, now under the leadership of his wife, pastor Valerie Hockham, he was a mentor of spiritual father. That was a model of excellence and what I mean, not just preaching, teaching. Give you some examples, what I mean. I saw from him as a. I remember, maybe 1993, this show, how many years, 30 years ago.

Dr. Dowell 17:19

I remember 1993 and I won't give places because I want to, you know, for respect of people that we're not throwing out, but we were in a particular city. He was there speaking at this conference. I remember being at the conference and because of my father-in-law who was connected with him, I kind of got access to him through my father-in-law. He preaches at this conference, the, the person that's running the conference, the bishop they're running short on the budget. So his bishop brought these pastors they're running short on the budget. And so he routed his people together and telling them like, hey, we got to give me the conference. You know, we need to give that life. And what my bishop did, he said hey, man, whatever y'all we're gonna give me for all of my speaking, put that toward the budget, don't worry about giving me an honorarium. And but then what I got behind closed doors, mentorship from him. His mindset was we've gathered these pastors, these people are just trying to make it. That's just trying to do. You know, we need to pour into them. It's not taken from them. And I said it because that's how he modeled In our organization, that it wasn't a heavy hand of how much you got to give. Yes, he believed in giving, teach giving, but he wasn't heavy-handed with it. Where it wasn't a Authoritary thing, where you felt Demean, you felt bad if he was like just getting your ministry started and you didn't have excess funds, it wasn't about it. You know, and I'm not saying we're against conference registration, I'm not saying there's not a place for that, but for his organization it was like give what you can, we'll give. And that was such a blessing to me. You know, being a young pastor just trying to make it to Kobe, you know what I mean, just trying to make it. So he always modeled that With that and that. That. That blessed me and so that's why I take that model now, because that's the model that I, that I had his humility, I I remember, I remember hearing his wife tell stories, like he may be a ORU Now, remember one time he was in the elevator, think his wife said, and this person was telling him all About the ministry and all that he did, and he just kind of listened to him and amen.

Dr. Dowell 19:37

And then, after he gets out through elevator, his wife, like you know why you didn't tell him what you do, you know, and like you know that he was such a humble person but he never tried to come off. As you know, I got a campus that's, you know, debt-free. We do all these things. And it was from the first time I met him how he dealt with me as a young minister. So much humility but just so powerful, so much authority, strength, strong man, but such a humble man. And because I saw that, jacobi, that's what impressed me and that's how that became my pattern. That became my pattern, you know, for men's, not that he didn't deal with order, not that he wouldn't check you if you need to be checked, you know me, not that he wouldn't order, but that's the pattern I saw and I saw. I hope that help you. So that's the pattern I got of it and and the balance of that to that, when it was time to deal with things, he would deal with things, you know, he would check things, he would confront things, but overall his persona. That's when it was that time and so I got that. That's my, my, my standpoint.

Dr. Dowell 20:50

But then I can't think of a mentor, you know, and I had several, but and just to kind of summon in this Were with a mistake that I saw the mentor make, maybe because they didn't know they tried to make me too much of them Because of their gift, mix, their gift, because I wouldn't.

Dr. Dowell 21:10

It's kind of like in the sports and we use sports, we're used to. If, let's say, if I was a, a scrambling quarterback and they was a pocket passer, they want to keep me in the pocket and I'm like I know I need to throw out the pocket, I like to run this ball. Or if I was a three-point shooter and they like, take it to the rim and they like, you know, stop shooting out of them three and take it in, I didn't think they maybe had the wisdom or the sensitivity that I'm not going to flow like them, I'm not going to do it like them and it's just like a knowledge, and I think that's the thing in that. I've experienced that and and I had to kind of you have to kind of pull yourself away from that somewhat, because if you don't, it'll break your Steam and it can make you feel because they're not normally want to try to make you more into them and still allowing you to be your true, authentic self. I hope that helps?

Pastor Jacobi 22:02

no, that's good. And they also brings to a point that A mentee, you have to know who you are. Don't go into the mentorship and this is a pitfall to avoid you going to the mentorship not knowing who you are or kind of the line towards who at your gift is because what you can be is you can be a just a copy Of the person that you're getting mentored.

Dr. Dowell 22:24

I'm just being real, I don't know who they are. Pasticobi, if they, if they go into minstrel to find out who they are, kind of kind of help us with that Then no, but that's on you.

Pitfalls and Boundaries in Mentorship

Pastor Jacobi 22:34

You have to seek and you will find. So you have to seek, just as you're seeking for a mentor. You also have to seek the knowledge and information so you can find. You know more in depth, so that mentor cannot be your own lifeline towards what that gift is. Whoo, that's that, and we talked about the last time. This can't be my only lifeline Towards what I want to do in the ministry, because if it is, I'm going to just be a copy of this. Well, you see that more than often. You see that more than often in so many different levels of ministry Preach copies, yeah, process it copies, copies, and we'll say you know, I got this for any it's, it's. You know, it's okay to, it's okay to give, you know, it's okay to get, you know, you know, uh, things from your mentor and connect it have the spirit to have.

Pastor Jacobi 23:28

They are known to you in the same manner it's. It's okay to do that, but you have to have your own authentic self, and if you're not your own authentic self, then you're just a copy. And if you're just a copy, then god can't truly use you how he wants to use you, and so that's, I mean, the only blessing originals, only bless it, that's it, that's it, and so I mean that's. That's a big pitfall that I can see the that could happen, but I'm passing you?

Dr. Dowell 23:57

Why don't you ask me that question, jacob? I'm interested in that. What? What prompted that question about the pattern I seen and that you know Did that because I had. I just have to bless god. That's why I want to give back. I've I've been blessed with mentors. I don't have a lot of horror stories and stuff that I hear and people go through. God just bless me so much in that area.

Pastor Jacobi 24:17

Because I've seen horror stories. I've seen some horror stories, in fact. There's a video, uh that we may be able to pull up, that I sent to you and it it shows of things of what not to do, what not to do in the mentor mentee relationship, what not to do.

Dr. Dowell 24:38

So we want to, so we want to check out a video that can give us some insight Into what not to do, so we can learn from A mentorship. And all right, let's just check out and you let me know we will, we'll pause it through and we'll we'll commentate on it all right.

Speaker 4 24:56

You're gonna blow it. You're not careful, you're going to blow it. If you're not careful, you're gonna blow it.

Dr. Dowell 25:09

Pastor cobra, let's put this in context If we have a pastor, he's talking to another five-fold minister. So we assume if it's another five-fold minister there might be some kind of mentorship relationship. So let's look at a wrong model so we can learn from it.

Speaker 4 25:25

If you're not careful, you're gonna blow it. If you're not careful, not careful, you're gonna blow it. If you're not careful, you're gonna blow it. Get in place, get in position. This is about being a servant. Your spirit has to change. I told you months ago that this next season was going to be the hardest season of your life, and you fumbled the ball three times and I told you, I was making more dramatic this season was, and if you're not careful You're gonna blow it.

Speaker 4 26:08

I don't care who prophesied to you. I'm your pastor. I don't care who tell you x, y, z. I know you by the spirit. I know your shortcomings. I know what you don't do in this church. I know what you do do in this church. Nobody outside this church know and you can tell them. I said it. You can tell any pastor. You can tell your cousin. You can tell anybody. I'm your pastor and I don't care what they tell you. If you don't get yourself together and do what you're supposed to do in this house, everything that God has promised over your life is subject to be aborted.

Dr. Dowell 26:42

Now to Kobe let's, let's look at this. What it is is, uh, let's I mean honestly, is he saying it seemed like the pastor's trying to warn you know, unfel, the minister, of getting off track, that you know he has authority in his life. So what other outside voices? Really no matter for me as a pastoral point. I can't see nothing Doctrally wrong. And what he's saying in that relationship, what about you? What are you seeing here? Is that? Is that a? So we can put it in context, do you see anything really wrong? And maybe what he's saying, because we don't know what the guy's done, but it seemed like he's trying to warn him. Not the phone, and don't worry about what other people. That's like. You know your kid, don't worry about what they're saying. I know you, I know your spirit.

Pastor Jacobi 27:32

Yeah, so I think that just in this situation and so, um, I think ultimately there was a conversation, and I don't I don't see what he's saying in his language is not necessary. I don't feel it's wrong, but how he's going about seeing it, so it's maybe not be the what is wrong, but the how, the delivery.

Dr. Dowell 27:55

Why do you say that?

Pastor Jacobi 27:56

Because it looks like it's a flex. It's a. It's a flex, it's a. I'm the mentor, you're the mentee, you listen to what I say and they're gonna know. You listen to what I say. That could be behind you?

Dr. Dowell 28:11

Why did you say that they gonna know what Kind of hit? Why did you say that?

Pastor Jacobi 28:15

and I don't know the whole story in the background, but it's. It's a flex. When the mentor and that's a pitfall to avoid is for the mentor to try to flex within the mentee Just because you're the mentor, that that strings the relationship. It's a strong, cold and realistically in this situation, like you said, the language may not be all wrong. I mean, he's just, you know, he's.

Dr. Dowell 28:42

Protect him from what messing up that he fumbled.

Pastor Jacobi 28:45

He made some mistakes you know you better get yourself right, whatever that means, I don't know. And then he went on to talk about his wife. You know, in board talk about you clean up, so we didn't see then what what I'm saying.

Dr. Dowell 28:58

That is good when you said that, how the pitfall comes, and I think we did. We deal with this. Another podcast he's trying to emphasize sometimes that principle of open rebuke rather than secret love, and I think we got to make sure how we're going about that. What is the rebuke If somebody's trying to, you know, strong arm the church, that preaching some poison and doctrine? You know what I mean. And we have to mark people, sometimes openly, so all of them know and all of fear that this is a behavior. There's a place for that. But what, what, what, what he's doing here.

Dr. Dowell 29:33

Sometimes that's done because they're trying to get the congregation to fear. Don't you do it, don't you try it. It's kind of like the 10 in slavery we're gonna beat you. So nobody else to try. And I don't think that this case may not be because what this minister is doing, that maybe some of this, and we'll see whatever he is. I will go farther. I think, like you said, the what, the way that he's doing it, that maybe this, some of this stuff could be done behind the scenes. Some of those things could be done one-on-one and maybe not even the same tone.

Dr. Dowell 30:09

Yeah, you know with it, go ahead. But we're gonna go for the thing you said.

Pastor Jacobi 30:12

We're gonna look more video, go ahead and we'll talk more about it, but that's that. What we first talked about was boundary, was that overall sensitivity?

Pastor Jacobi 30:22

you have to have boundary and sensitivity as a mentor and mentee, and Even though you may say what's sensitivity, you see in this, the sensitivity that you see in this is that it's done in the way that it's done and it's out in the open. So you may not be and I don't know their Relationship, so their marriage it may be different and they church may just be like that, I don't know. But ultimately this is not a natural mentorship Back and forth response, because I'm gonna tell you straight up, you're dealing with another person, a human being, and they also have a response, and not everybody's response is gonna be with hands up.

Dr. Dowell 31:04

So you.

Pastor Jacobi 31:06

Mean, you got it. You got to be respected in that aspect. So that's a boundary. Let's listen a little bit more Get yourself together.

Speaker 4 31:13

Get in place for you. Blow it not just for you, but for your family. Get yourself together brief, pick up the vacuum, clean the bathroom. You're not above the work.

Dr. Dowell 31:29

Oh, that is good. Ministers need to serve and vacuum clean. All that is good.

Speaker 4 31:35

You got to do it, get yourself together. Titles with our service are empty pieces of paper. They have no value because his service, which gives the title to push.

Dr. Dowell 31:56

Isn't that good. Titles without any service have no value, because the service that gives the title push. Is that good, that's good, that's great, that's good. Isn't that something good to know Be talented. So it's not wrong at what he's saying.

Speaker 4 32:17

Do you hear me?

Speaker 1 32:18

son.

Speaker 4 32:22

Get yourself together. You operating in the wrong spirit. I don't like it. You're operating in the wrong spirit. I don't like it. This spirit that you're in, it's not from God. God don't operate like that. Get yourself together and be brief. Come here, lift your hands.

Pastor Jacobi 32:58

You have no reason To be angry. We said it pastor. No, he was talking to a kid. I Just thought about that. Yeah, just a tone.

Speaker 4 33:10

To be upset because if I gave you the keys, you will blow it. You don't even know how to turn on a system. If I gave you the key, you ain't. You ain't tried to learn nothing. If I gave you the keys to any church, you will blow it because you don't know how to do nothing. All you want to do, son, is preach, and preaching is less than 10% of pastor.

Pastor Jacobi 33:34

True. Yes, that's true Very much.

Speaker 4 33:39

Work and stop worrying about them. You got to do the work Because without work, you know why a lot of pastors fail. They ain't got no service. True, I can get you the money right now. You want, you want to go out there and do it on your own? I'll give you $20,000 tomorrow. You go out there, you find your building, you go, you go get your sound system, you go pay your rent and after you do that, you have nothing and I guarantee you in six months You're gonna come right back on here broken, and I give you what I started. I give you what nobody gave me when I started, and I'm telling you to your face You're gonna fail Because you ain't putting enough work. And I don't care who prophesied to you. Without work, prophecy is no longer bored.

Dangers of Abusive Mentoring Relationships

Dr. Dowell 34:31

I think, pastor, he, he, you know, I think we get it. He's seeming that he may want to help and Trying to cover the minister. But I think, with a pitfall, this, what I think the pitfall comes, it's not, it's the tone, it's not the what, because all the things these ministers need to know that it's not about the title, it ain't about just the microphone, especially those that want to be pastors. Man, you're gonna need more than preachers. You got to have a work ethic like you don't know, man, I mean, you got to be dirty boots soldier. But I, it's the tone, but not just the tone, jacobi, it's the place, yes, and ring, I said it because his family's there. It's like he's been stripped, it's like in front of his family. I imagine how that man, how his kids, if his kids there, how he looked yeah, his wife there, I looked, go yo yo yo, your wife, his kids, his family, the body no, the body, but his family how he seems like he's demeaned. And so I want to put in context that's why I think how the pitfalls come in.

Dr. Dowell 35:41

Let's break it down. We're not trying to come against that pastor. I don't know this pastor or his bishop, whoever the man, the God is don't know him. We're not saying he's not a man of God. We're not saying that God don't do a good work. I can't even question his motive or his heart.

Dr. Dowell 35:56

To me it seemed like it could be coming from a good place, of intent to try to protect him. He said man, I give it to you, I don't want you to go out there. You're gonna fail because you're not putting in the work. We don't know the relationship, relationship. But when we talk about mentee and mentee, if he was taught, is that one is the place that you say it, everything in the place that, that that shouldn't and I have maybe been a conversation that he had with him in Public, like that it's not a place for open review, not only the place, but then some we can debate, maybe the tone and all that too, because what happens is I and I, if I'm, which I will be, and that's what want to help people to Kobe, I would be transparent. Sometimes these things happen because maybe he had a bad model. Yeah, so he thought this the type of behavior it's kind of like if your parents abuse you and beat you with.

Dr. Dowell 36:49

With shoes that you hit you with coat hangers, extension cords. So then you think that's accepted behavior, that's what you got. You think, like I punch him, I'm punching in the chest. So you do what we vow we punchin our kids.

Pastor Jacobi 37:04

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Dowell 37:04

You, you hit them with shoes. Why? Because you saw that model somewhere, so maybe he had that model or this to Kobe Some personality, some people personality. They're more Wired and more hemp and rough. And there's a place so that everybody's not me can mouth John the Baptist how he was saying you vipers, who's warned you to free some prophets, prophets and motivated people. They could come off more rough, more abrasive. That's the personality thing. Some are more louder, some are more intense, that we have to allow place for that. But I think what we have to be sure to do also to cover we can't rest on that as an excuse To not learn to temper our personalities. And because I think what that happened? Because he's seen a bad model or you get frustrated.

Dr. Dowell 37:56

I've been frustrated in in earlier days in my ministry. I can recall sometime wanting to help people or minister somebody and I'm trying to warn them of being more abrasive and in retrospect too abrasive in my means to help. Why you're frustrated you? You're frustrated with them for the decisions that they're making and so you're trying to help them. And if that's part of your personality, you can come off like that. That don't make it right and I had to learn Jacobi to, because you know that coaching me, I'm a former coach too, so there's a coach in me, and when I coach, I coach with excitement and enthusiasm, meaning that when they did well, jacobi, I'm Nicole we would run over there and tell them, like what are you doing?

Dr. Dowell 38:41

Grab them and said that's the way you play. That's what I'm talking about. It's odd. No, I can't stand it. Now, when I go to a game and a player make a good play and do something, the coaches don't say nothing. We're jumping, we're like get them up that way to play. That's how we play ball around here. That's winning football, that's bulldog. I was that kind of coach, so so that's a part of me. And my wife all the time tell me that babe, you getting, you getting loud, boo, boo you. And so I had to learn that when I was dealing with people and I'm frustrated and I've Forgive, I've yelled before and I shouldn't have yelled I've raised my voice and I shouldn't raise my voice. I'd acted like a Tasmanian devil.

Dr. Dowell 39:30

You know, I'm hot, I'm hot, I'm hot, and I had to learn that hot got Moses in trouble. No, he was man to God, that hot. So I had to learn to temper myself and learn to be patient. Still, you can correct, you can rebuke, you can keep order, you can chastise. There's a way to do it, yes, and there's a place to do it, yes, but that you don't have to abuse them, you don't have to leave marks on them. You can discipline elders, ministers and leaders.

Dr. Dowell 40:05

But that comes part on the men toward Jacobi, because he Environment, because you're your prophecy motivated, and some people are straight, and I got past the friends and people, man, man, they're strong men, that strong and and I don't think they should have a model like mine and they're strong leaders and they're put stuff in order. We're not saying none of that wrong. But you, we have to all be cognizant that we still respect the mentor, that we have a respect, and just because people tolerated Doesn't mean that it's acceptable and good. That's it. That's it because you get away with it, jacobi, and I think that's why we put you perpetuate that, because nobody ever let them know like, hey, that's not acceptable behavior. You should know after demean a person. So that's my thoughts on it.

Pastor Jacobi 40:53

No, and that's true, because you get past, you get, you get. You know the face. You'll get the face like you see on my shirt, a smile. Well, you can take it and have the hands up. But you also see the back, because they'll leave you and you wonder why they're not. You wonder why and some you wonder why they're not returning your calls. You wonder why your relationship is strained. You wonder why now you don't have that person that was your mentor and that person is there right beside you. You know getting that information anymore. They left is because you abused it. You abused that power, you abused that, that particular relationship, and you didn't respect that boundary and you were not sensitive, even though they may have been wrong, even though you may have even said right even though you were right, cause what he was saying was right Good stuff, wasn't it, jacobi?

Pastor Jacobi 41:46

Yeah, it's just like hey, one plus one equals two. Write it out One plus one equals two. Go on the board and do it. One plus one equals two. No, you put up three. You're teaching them. They got the wrong answer, but there's a way to go about it. And if you don't respect people as people and that's one thing Jesus did when he was on his earth he made everybody understand that you got to respect people for people. And so I think that we we cannot get so toe bogged down in the mentor mentee aspects of the mentor aspect and we get all high and mighty and we forget that this is a person, this is a soul, and I have to deal with them in a diligent aspects, because this soul can also smile and say yeah and leave.

Dr. Dowell 42:39

And even worse, jacobi, even worse. They smile and stay and we break people. We break them where they but they become broken, they're demeaning and they're broken and really, really they're broken where that. We smashed them. We took it in their steam, their words, who they are. That's even worse and this is why we hear these documentaries and sometimes it happened a small church it ain't just, it ain't just mega church is always because some people, because they look at that pastor, that bishop, that mentor as representative God, because they don't know better, they realize man, they are no ented.

Dr. Dowell 43:31

I didn't mess up, kind of like a child, don't know no better, I did wrong, you know I did wrong, and so they look at it. That person's anointed. I know God walked with them, I know they've helped me, I know they got my best interest. I do fumble and make mistakes and sometimes, if they don't lead, you go, but they, it breaks them and they take it because they, they kind of start feeling like this is the word I deserve, that, I deserve that and it it crushes their steam. This where we get church, church, soul ties and sometimes people stand that stuff for years until they break out of it and then many times they're through with church, they're through with God. And now they don't want to hear no kind of thing about no spiritual sons, no spiritual daughters, no kind of thought. I mean, they don't want anything to do with that, but all they know is that's abusive and so that's worse.

Dr. Dowell 44:27

And that's when we see these documentaries about Sajikobi in these churches that that was going on, even though the church was flourishing. It was abuse going on, because it's a well why? Cause I don't think in the early stages, see, if we get parents early stages and get them the food that went, yes, your child going to get on your nerve, that's your child and sometime it's going, but you, you don't, you don't shake that child, don't know, you don't, don't shake. You don't want to demean the child and you step down. You don't want to break them.

Dr. Dowell 44:59

I know you're upset and they spew stuff, but you, you got to be the mature one. You can discipline them, but you don't want to break their spirits. And because we have dealt with this, this is five phone foods you call me where they're here in this ad Cause if you go to a conference, a pastor's conference or leadership mentor, they're dealing with other new answers and they don't have these real conversations and on the time we had these conversations. When somebody do a documentary, when something like a heel song, a Mars heel or church abuse, and then it come out and everybody's saying like we went through this crazy stuff for 15 years, yep.

Speaker 1 45:38

But if we get over the front, end.

Dr. Dowell 45:40

We can stop it and have some conversations and say like, hey, pastor, you know we, we will change and if enough people leave, they'll change. You know, and think about what. You know, what made, what made me change? What you know. I'm not saying I definitely said I wasn't an abusive pastor or whatever. But I've known I've been upset before, I've known I've raised my voice before and what I had to learn was just my time with God. It's like you know, and if I reflected on some relationship that did sever or some relationship that did go south, on prime reflection I don't take all the responsibility, but it's like I could have handled that a little better. I could have handled that better. And when you, when you know better, you do better, do better.

Dr. Dowell 46:27

And I think if we don't have these conversations. People can stand that perpetual cycle. What are you here in, pastor Cause I think you know this is kind of stuff pastors need to know and we need to know about, and mentor and everybody, pastor, that comes with.

Effective Mentorship and Boundaries

Pastor Jacobi 46:39

that's why this conversation is important Because, like you said, the lack of exposure is a lack of knowledge, and so you can be exposed both ways. You can be exposed negatively or you can be exposed positively. I mean when we had, when I asked you the first conversation about you know what gave you, you know the understanding of boundaries and being sensitive towards when you're mentoring other people's boundaries, it's because you had a mentor that was sensitive to you and so you was exposed to that and you had great mentors. And I think in this situation it shows that someone that you know whoever that person, that pastor, that mentor that was in that video someone probably exposed him wrong. That looked that sound like some old school, and so somebody, somebody exposed him wrong and it never was corrected.

Dr. Dowell 47:31

And so now we said don't people need it? Now you can do anything in the church, anything. Go wear anything, do anything.

Pastor Jacobi 47:39

So we always got to get better and I think that's the most important thing you don't shun what happened, you don't shun tradition, you don't shun things like that and they say, oh, that's not a bad, but it's a way of going about it. And you know, back in the day they didn't record, back in the day we didn't have video cameras out. You cannot do that on that level, because you're bringing now more issues driven towards that, and it has. Yes, we're dealing with the spirit. Yes, we're dealing with God. Yes, we're dealing with every. Yes, we're dealing with that. But there's a sensitivity towards a soul and you have going to be even more responsible for that soul, rather than the rebuke that you're trying to send to that person. And so, ultimately, how you handle it is important. So this is how they'll do. They'll smell and some may receive it.

Dr. Dowell 48:29

Majority of them will smile, but you gotta look at the after effect after you get done, that's it and I think that's where it happens at, and we've seen it with kids and their parents, right, that's it Afterward, and they realized when they get grown I've been abused, come on now, when you grow up.

Dr. Dowell 48:52

You grow up and you realize I was abused and that's what happened with people in the body when they get teaching, something like COVID happened, they get away from church. That's what helped a lot of people. They still realize like I was abused.

Pastor Jacobi 49:06

It's a tick. Talk about that. The parents, the parents were writing the apology letters to their kids when they used to hit them with extension cords and hangers. And you know telling them, you know, knock them into the in the next week. All this stuff, you know it's great. You know things that have been said that have brought a lot of fear.

Dr. Dowell 49:26

But what I hear Pastor Jacobi with it, and I know we need order. I'm not saying that that, that the minister, all those things may have been true, but there's a more excellent way of going about it.

Dr. Dowell 49:41

That's a way you don't let your kids just jump all around. No, we can Well, we're on the time out to work. No, because. And then again too and I got a teaching that's dealing with this Some people they need more sternness, yeah, they need that. That might be a relationship there. And some people more stern in their talk. So we're not saying that that everybody got it. We got a tip to around the different gifts, different personality. Some people need that more straight. Give me straight, with no chaser. They respond better than that. Then, like we want to drop that, they like that. So we need to have new answer.

Dr. Dowell 50:18

But I think we had to have this conversation, pastor Jacobi, should be a balance before we close. What's any other? It was another pit fall from the mentor mentee that you want to bring out. There's so many to come. That's why, pastor Kobe, we should have it in the show notes or we'll be able to have a link on it in it that what I want to do.

Dr. Dowell 50:37

I have a teaching and I'm going to break down the different how to be an effective mentor mentee, and when you see that come out, it should already be available when you hear this podcast. Be sure that you're available, because there's so many things that we want to deal with because we haven't been taught about how to be an effective mentor, how to be an effective mentee. There's so much we need to know in it. I want to make sure you avail yourself to that teaching because just a couple that I deal with in the teaching is that you need processes and procedures, you need a plan, you need processes and procedures and then that I have some templates and things like that where you need an assessment from your mentee to know, like, what is it that you need for me, so that I can evaluate what your need is and I can evaluate what I bring to the table. So you need systems in place and in that teaching I have those systems and those templates where you can give them something we're going to have that directly for you where you can give them that and say, hey, fill this out and you can see, is it a good fit, what they and it helps the mentee get clear on what they need. So you got to be clear on what you bring, be clear on what they need, and then you need to be able to have a plan, and so in that I'm going to deal with that and all those processes, because some of the mistakes you don't know how to guard your time and what mentees do they're pointing to background.

Dr. Dowell 52:05

See, if you don't have this training, I deal with it in the teaching you can pitfall. You've invested time in people who didn't need your time because you didn't have a process or plan, and so now you're frustrated. So now you guard your time because some other people wasted your time. But in the teaching I'm going to show you how to redeem the time and that's why I'm able to mentor many multiple people, because I got a system. I have a plan with a way to help mentor this podcast as part of my system of mentoring ministers, and so now I can have one and I can help many by this one podcast. I can help many, and in that training I want to help the five full minister develop the system in the plan for what they need, and so be sure that you avail your self to that.

Boundaries and Pitfalls of Mentorship

Dr. Dowell 52:57

But one last one I thought about you, kobe, and I can go in more detail in the train. So be sure, looking to show notes or visit our website, go on Instagram hit on my link tree as well, and Instagram. On Facebook, go on my link tree. You should see it there on our website at five full food dot com, you'll find a leak tree and you'll be able to get that. Click the link. You'll be able to get the course for the mentor and the mentee course. We pray that it'll be a blessing to you and the way we do it here.

Dr. Dowell 53:28

Be sure you write us to if anything that we're offering, if you see that course and you just like very non, of course, but maybe you don't have anything. Whatever, you write us, email us. We want to make sure we make all of our materials so that people can be blessed. So you be sure you reach out to us. Let us know your unique situation. We want to get those materials in your hand, but sometimes they play games.

Dr. Dowell 53:47

Minister to Kobe, so much I need to get into.

Dr. Dowell 53:50

But mentors play these games and I had a mentor not a mentor, but I had a leader in my early days of the minister of the military that they would put me on projects that to set me up to fail so that I could learn, give me stuff to do without giving me all the information and a way of trying to teach me, and so sometimes mentors are play these games and I want to get you to do something because I want to just teach you and mow you, and it's almost like you're playing a game. You're playing a game with them and that's not good mentorship. It's like I'm telling you to go, but I want you to go do some and I want and I'm setting you up, and that's not good learning. I think those are pitfalls that we don't. We haven't been taught how to be good mentors and stuff, and so I want you to be sure you're very yourself to that training. I think it's going to help you. Anything you want to say in that pitfall, minister to Kobe.

Pastor Jacobi 54:43

Before we close out I think big pitfall that is important to understand is that you have to bridge an authentic mentorship relationship on both sides. I think also that if a mentee or mentor but a mentee for sure feels that their boundary or their mentor did not handle them properly, you have to address that. You're in a, you're a person. You have to address it, because if you don't, it's going to get worse, because only what you allow will be basically presented. And so if it's something that I was like no, that you know, that kind of you know rub me the wrong way, then allow your mentor because it's don't think that your mentor has to be a perfect person and that's what happens.

Pastor Jacobi 55:35

There's not a balance in understanding that this is a human being. I'm a human being, so we're looking at whoever messes up first, whoever doesn't do something right first. This is when the relationship screws up. No, that's not it. We're both humans, so allow each other to make those mistakes, but you also have to be you know true to each other in the aspects of telling if something happens, if that person rubbed you the wrong way, or if you feel that that person overstepped the boundary, that you felt that was, you know, not, not proper and you have to speak out and say that because if not, you're running to more issues of that continual abuse.

Dr. Dowell 56:12

Wow, and you know how we often in our mentoring sessions and you know some of former informal always ask you to Kobe you know any, any, any questions that you have. What, what, any final questions you have, or maybe what we covered today, what, what question would you ask me that we're, since we're here live and we're flowing authentically what, what would hit your mind past your couple? We had a final question for me. What we shared today, or maybe something I shared today, what would be your question?

Pastor Jacobi 56:41

I think my question is why do you think it's important for mentors to not abuse? Or why why you think it's important for mentors to understand the boundaries and sensitivities for the men too and I think you talked to me, mean, you have had great conversations about this but a lot of people they not. They don't understand. You know, when you have certain people that are at a level that you want to be at and you say you spoke on a, briefly, you know you can get honed on, hey, I want to do this.

Pastor Jacobi 57:30

I see a lot of times it comes in coaching that you know when you go GA, they got you doing dirty work because this is what you want to do is that the head coach at the heat they talk about him all the time just off of the basis of he was, you know, the laundry guy, he was a ball boy, he was this, he was that and now he's a head coach because he had to do a lot of dirty work to get to where he's at. And some people that mentorship level works. But just talk about why it's important for the mentor in the mentee, the mentee to understand that you still got to have a life while still being mentored.

Dr. Dowell 58:12

I go in detail in the course. So be sure that how to be an effective mentor in the mentee because I just for time is so much to cover, you know with it to lay it out but it, and to kind of sum it up, one of the things I deal with is balance. That's it, because if you, you, you want to, you want to be out of balance, it please ask. These talk about there's a time and a season for everything, everything, and I like to put it this way, and one of my books is you know, the Bible says what does a prophet, a man, to you know, to save the world, lose his soul? I kind of talk, that's what I talk about. What does a prophet, a man, to gain the world, lose his soul. But what does a prophet, a preacher, to save the world? Loses family. What does a prophet mean to to, to build a ministry, to go to the nations to prophesy, to have a mighty teaching thing, this do all of these things that I supposed to do in the ministry, my singing ministry, and lose my relationship with my wife, one of my good fans, dr David Mills, he coined the term, he called it. There's a ministry called family, ministry called family. That's. That's my, my priority ministry. My family, my relationship with my wife, that's ministry. My relationship with my kids, especially when they're young and growing, that's that's a ministry. That's not just me I'm, I'm babysitting, that's a ministry. Sending that stand in the cold weather, cheering my son on, going to the gymnastics and flip tactics and going here, that's ministry. And so, understanding those boundary, it helps us put ministry in the proper place. Then, when we put it in the proper place, then we get the proper blessing. And so that's what those boundaries, so you protect them and so, and then from themselves, and then you protect yourself. Because when you get out of balance, god's not gonna bless you. Because now you're out of balance, now you, you, you, you, you, you something that's supposed to be in a blessing, it can become a curse to you now. Now you become a dude, my dude, aaron boy, and do this and do that. And God never made it to be that relationship. No, that's why the bound? Because you lose your blessing when you cross boundaries. Not only do they lose their blessing, you use their blessing, because now God can't trust you with the next level. That's it, that's it. What a wonderful podcast. Fast to Kobe, this been a blessing. We pray that you've enjoyed it.

Dr. Dowell 1:00:48

Be sure those that hadn't subscribed be sure to subscribe. Those that hadn't left a review. Be sure you leave us a review, on whatever platform you watch it. Those on YouTube, be sure that you do subscribe. Put in the comments, write us. Be sure that you do check out our course. I believe it's gonna help you, as we've been dealing with the subject of mentorship. I only can deal with it so long, so be sure you get the course. I think it's gonna help you be an effective mentor and a mentee. You're gonna learn on both ends because if you're a mentee, one day you're gonna be a mentor, and sometimes we should always be in both dimensions.

Dr. Dowell 1:01:20

To Kobe, we should always be mentoring somebody pouring in. We should always have somebody pouring in. That's how we get the balance. Well, this has been dr Robert F Dowell, with five full food. We pray today that you have eight wells so that you can't excel. I want you never to forget, no matter where you are, a matter of what you experience in your life. God has destined you for greatness and my prayer is that you're gonna continue to live better. You're gonna do better. You're gonna release the brilliance that's in you. God bless you. We look forward to being with you in our next.