Ministers that Excel Know How to Lead well with Dr. David Mills

Learn how leadership can enhance the effectiveness of your ministry.  Dr. David Mills joins me to explore the profound impact of leadership in your Five-Fold Ministry.   Our discussion underscores the importance of taking the time to nurture one's gifts, highlighting the potential pitfalls of rushing through the leadership development process.

Start a journey through the realms of self-leadership and taking care of others, as we dissect the lessons Jesus imparts to contemporary leaders. From the trials and triumphs that define our ministries to the cultivation of leadership, we share insights on the role of pain in growth and the significance of forgiveness. 

Concluding our discussion, we address pivotal topics such as accountability and personal growth, and how they shape leadership's relevance in today's society. Reflect on how authenticity can be maintained amidst evolving cultural landscapes and consider the legacy you aspire to leave. Whether your ministry embraces a local community or reaches across the globe, this episode serves as a guiding light for flourishing in your divine calling with Dr. David Mills as our honored guest.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to the Five Fold Food Podcast hosted by Dr Robert F Dowell, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment they need to succeed. The Word of God declares and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry edifying of the body of Christ. Prepare to receive revelation, wisdom and insight to empower your ministry for victory. Now let's eat.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 0:38

Praise the Lord. God bless each and every one of you. Welcome to another edition of the Five Fold Food Podcast. I'm your host, dr Robert F Dowell. I'm so delighted that you've chosen to be with us on another episode. Wherever you may be watching or listening to this podcast Apple YouTube we pray that you would like and subscribe so that you can get our latest episodes. For those that own social media platforms, share it out with a friend so that they can be blessed as well. If you're listening on one of your devices, if you'll look there on your device, you'll find a place where you can leave us a review.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:18

If this podcast is being a blessing to you, we certainly would appreciate a review, a five-star review. It'll help us know how we're helping you, but then it'll help push it out in the algorithm so that they can share this podcast with others. Also, if you look down on your show notes, you'll find a place there. You'll see my link tree where I have some resources that I believe that will help you in your Five Fold Ministry some free resources, a book that I wrote. I believe that it'll help you as a minister. Be sure you check out the resources that are available there under the show notes Also, you'll find a place that you can support the podcast, any cap. A donation that you would like to give would definitely be appreciated. You'll see a donate button and we would definitely appreciate that.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 2:05

Again, I'm glad that you're here with us. Again, I feel like I'm one of the most blessed men upon the earth To be able to have this time to dialogue with great men and women of God about Five Fold Ministry. Today I want to bring to the stage a good friend of mine. Dr David Mills is in the house. How are we doing? Man of God.

Dr. David Mills 2:31

I'm honored and overwhelmed and thankful man to be here with you on Five Fold. I mean, Five Fold has been a powerful thing for me. Thank you for pouring into me, encouraging me and my family, as well as the ministry, and for who you are. You know, I call you the kingdom processor. If you get here, you man, it's going to be processed out of our heart into our life.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 2:51

Oh man, you likewise. I'm just glad that we can arrange our schedules to be here to do this with you. For those that don't know Dr David Mills, he's been in ministry for over 28 years and I often like to say he's another one. He's not new to this, but he's been true to this. He's no novice when it comes to ministry. He's the senior pastor of through the word church in Wilmington, delaware, where he is not only the pastor but founder as well. Well, he's been doing an awesome work there for 26 years, and so we thank God for him. If you want to reach out and know more about the church, you can reach them at TTWchurchorg. Find out more about the ministry. You're ever in the Delaware area, leave it to be a blessing you can stop by to see him.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 3:41

He's married to an awesome woman, a God, a Bernadette Mills, where they do ministry together. Now, only do they do ministry together in the church, but they also bless couples throughout the country and what they affectionately called tailor made marriages. They do marriages so they can be tailor made, meaning that when you go through their ministry, their teaching, their workshop, you're not going to have a marriage that just off the rack, now, that ain't going to be tailor made. It's going to fit you in the right places. It's going to lay right your husband going to fit your right, your wife going to fit your right Tailor made marriages. So if you like to know more about the tailor made marriage, you can reach them at tailormademarriagescom. They do seminars. They do a time once a year, a special time. They meet in February. They know what they do with couples, but they meet throughout the year. I believe it'll be a blessing to you.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 4:36

Before we get started in our conversation today, pastor Mills, I just want to let you know, man, I so appreciate the noontan on your life and your friendship and I was just thinking even before we went to recording, just thinking about how blessed I am that God has put awesome men of God like yourself and the more I do these podcasts, it's like I'm blessed to have these interactions with these awesome men of God that you put in my life to help bless me and help bless the body. So I appreciate for all you the example that you have been to me over the years and to see how God has, you know, blessed you. You've been a great example and helped me in so many ways. So just appreciate the friendship and the fellowship that God has done.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 5:21

Tell us a little bit about tailor made, for we don't know when people may be viewing this podcast or watching it, but whenever they are, we know to cycle back around and let them know what you're doing, and connect with it.

Dr. David Mills 5:35

Sure, sure we are. We are, we love, we love relationships. Now what's really crazy is that me and Bernie that comes from the hood, two kids from projects, single parent homes, all right, but we have an incredible 33 year marriage with no drama, no side chicks, no, no, no, nothing. You know what I'm saying? Because God has stabilized us and calls us to be able to build a relationship of commitment, of service. They may be perfect, but we are perfecting one another and we've been perfected in Christ to the point in which that I can see. I can see who God is in her and she can see who God is in me. And we walk this thing out together.

Dr. David Mills 6:07

And one of the greatest things I found is when Tesla was just got from one of my kids the first one just got married. He got five beautiful kids I mean beautiful, they ain't crazy, they beautiful but they ain't married yet. And I was trying to ask them why y'all, why y'all ain't married yet. They said we waiting for something. Like y'all.

Dr. David Mills 6:22

I can't get a better conflict, I can't get a better one, particularly in this day and age. I can't get a better comment, but being able to understand for us as men. You know what we were taught in the world and the idea of the barbershop and locker room. That ain't enough. That ain't going to do it. That ain't going to make us become. That's not going to teach me how to love the parts of a woman, but not how to love all of a woman. So I need to love her mind, her heart, her spirit, her thoughts, her purpose, her plans, her gifting, her calling, her, anointing, all of who she is.

Dr. David Mills 6:46

I would be like John Ludget. I want to love every part of her her curls, her edges and all of her perfect face. You know what I'm saying. Come on, bro. The ideal is I got to get around somebody that can help me and understand how to love all of her. And what I love is. God's word gives us the picture, because he's the creator and everything else. We go back to the instructions. The instructions for how to love a woman is in the camera. Can't nobody teach me better than the one I made it. And the very same way it's for a man the idea of helping our sisters to know that, even if you didn't grow up with a man, you can understand what a man lives, who he is not to harm you, but to help you and strengthen you, cover you, love you and to keep you all your life.

Dr. David Mills 7:22

So telling me, is built for that. We do date nights, we do the ideal man. We just get them doing the penthouse down. Pray for us, pray for us. I know we think spiritual, but we got nothing but a Luther van Dros and we got some you know what I mean Some Anita Baker. But we learn to love each other because you only get to do marriage on this planet. Jesus told the Pharisees he says, look in here that after them seven men died. They said whose wife will it be? He says ain't none of them? Y'all in the scripture know your Bible. Ain't nobody getting married in heaven? So the only time you get to do marriage is on this planet and you need to do it right.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 7:55

If you, while you're here, do it the kingdom way.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 7:58

You all do such a great job in that and blessing couples and marriages, and so I'm telling you it will do your marriage a blessing If you be able to connect with them, the events that they have, and teaching and training, and you know, I think that's sex way into an importance.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 8:16

What we're dealing with, and this topic that God has been telling me deal with in the five fold food, dr Mills, is how that ministers excel, know how to lead well, and again I'm coming back to the point. I believe that many times when we see ministries that no longer excel, when they fail, when they don't do well, many times it's a problem because there's a leader that didn't lead well, they weren't able to lead well, and the ones that we do seek sale is more than what happens in the pulpit, and so I think that's so crucial for ministers to help frame this, to get us started today. Pastor Mills, why would you say it's important for ministers to see their leadership or what they do besides just preaching and the teaching that they do as a prophet, evangelist? Can you help us in that? And to see the importance of?

Dr. David Mills 9:17

leadership. Sure, I think the wonderful thing is that God will give everybody gifts, but you have to learn leadership. So I think the challenge of it is notice that there's no word in the Bible that God says I'll give you leadership. You don't give you that Now. He'll give you his spirit, he'll give you your spiritual gifts, but he don't give you leadership. That has to be developed and I think that's why God has to spend so much time with the disciples on the planet. He didn't spend three years and a half years with them to give them their gifts. They had their gifts as soon as they got the Holy Ghost, but we've spent in three and a half years teaching them leadership. So he's giving them the concepts and the idea of what it looks like to understand leadership. You already got the gifts. You already got the spirit. You already got your knowledge. You already got your calling. You got that. Let me help you with how to lead.

Dr. David Mills 10:01

I think that piece of it and I think sometimes, when it comes to church, I do it from the relationship standpoint. I think sometimes our expectation of the congregation has to be different, because when it comes to church, it's not the congregation. Some people just dating you. They're visitors. That's a date. They ain't married to you, they ain't committed to you, and so stop putting your heart on people who are not committed to you. They can't even leave anytime they want. They ain't even. They've never even told you he was committed to you. So sometimes you know what I mean. As leaders, sometimes we've got to make sure we got our heart in the right place. We want people so bad that you don't even know if they want you. They were just dating you. They don't even in your church twice. So sometimes you know what I mean.

Dr. David Mills 10:40

We got to equate this thing. It's really about relationship, because then, after that you got to date me or something, we got to go out. Then, when they come and join the church, now it's committed why they gave a gift. How do you know they got engaged? Because my expectation on somebody to join the church is like an engagement why I know you're going to be president. At least I know you're going to show up. I know you got the right purpose and plan for our relationship and how we go, and then, when leadership comes in, I'm expecting you to step up and coven it. We married now. Oh yeah, you ain't going nowhere, I ain't going nowhere and we're going to have bumps and bruises and processes, but this is about a relationship and I'm going to make you better, you're going to make me better. We're going to do this together and I think even in this point I like to throw this out to the blended family that's the folk that left our church. Come on, they still family, they still. They still are family down here when they go. I might be mad at you, but you're still family, we still. We got. We said I'm going to see you doing the holiday, I might see you every now and then I still got to treat you right because you fake them. So we got to have a right mentality for leadership and relationship. We pull along together about how we lead in it.

Dr. David Mills 11:46

Leadership is the ideal, the stewardship of trust. I think leadership is the ideal. The management of hearts. I think leadership is the ideal of living with integrity, standing consistency, being able to cover people and honor and using our instruments as well as our influence, to be at our God-given for our person and giving the heart of Jesus as well as the service spirit.

Dr. David Mills 12:08

And my life has to be important more than my gifts, because watch this, if I don't manage my life. My gift ain't gonna make it, so the ideal of it is is making sure that I'm not just going somewhere. But can I take these people with me somewhere that God entrusted me with? And if I can, then I'm gonna cause it again. My life has to be intentional. My mama told me something when I told her I was gonna preach. She said boy, can you let them see a sermon before you hear one? Hey, I almost was offended before I went to the pulpit. Ha ha, ha, ha ha ha. So my goal is I get to preach six days a week with my life. I get to preach one day with my lips. Ooh.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 12:50

Man. That's good, that is good man. You, man, I'm telling you that you're a bad man. Pastor Dave man, you said a mouthful man in that to help us get a picture that leadership is akin to relationship, the dating, the engagement, the matter of how we look at people. You said something interesting. I want you to hit this for a moment. You talked about that Jesus time with his disciples. He was teaching them leadership and I liked that.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 13:23

You and you said that leadership has to be developed. Our other gifts so prophets, the apostle, evangelists those gifts were given under you. He gave gifts under man, and so you. You didn't. I didn't study to be a pastor or review an apostle. You didn't study to be one. It's like you didn't study to be a man the ladies that are listening and watching. You didn't study to be a lady. No, you are one, you was given that.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 13:57

Once we are recognized that we are a pastor, we studied now that we are to learn more about who I am and what I have, but I can't study my way to be a prophet. Now that I, when I realized that I am a prophet, I may study to learn more about what I am, but I can't study enough to be an evangelist. I think this is so key because what happened is but with leadership, you may have certain capacities. That's something that has to be developed. And so what happens is that means we often say we can find our gifts and our purpose by the things that flow naturally out of us. You find your gifts, you find your purpose, you find who, discover who. You are right Because it flows naturally. But what you're telling us, that, what I'm picking up from you, the revelation you're giving us, leadership is not the same. It may not flow naturally from you. It has to be developed. And herein why maybe some may struggle more in their leadership development because it may not have been a natural flow, and so they struggle against it because it maybe didn't come easy at first. Like for certain things that people do, they came easier to others, but if they stuck with it and stayed on it, then eventually it became easier to them. I think this is what ministers need to know about leadership that they have to develop that thing. And I'm thinking about my own walk. You're helping me pass the day because now you know I am a leader.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 15:34

I grew up my leader, but I'm gonna be honest, I didn't. In my early part of ministry I preached, I taught, I did lead, but it wasn't to a couple of years might've been maybe three years after I was in my pastoral where the leadership dimension woke up in me, and that's when I came in contact with John Maxwell yeah, yes, sir, how to being a people person and influencing people. When I got one of his books and I began to read his book, that's when I got on my leadership journey of development. Before then it was preaching and teaching some aspects of leadership, but not the full dimension, until I had to intentionally develop it as we go on. Can you maybe help us understand again? I believe God is trying to speak to us. Why is it and I know you might have heard it again, but I wanna synchronize it why is it essential for leaders to maybe grab ahold of this concept of why I need to develop as a leader, and not just as a prophet, assigns and wonders person, but just in my leadership dimension?

Dr. David Mills 16:50

Yeah, let's see. I think the challenge of it is that many people believe that anointing is leading, but anointing is not leading. Anointing ain't leading, wow, it's just a gift, all right, so there's many gifted people, but there's not many leading people that have the gift and that know how to manage both sides of it. And I think the difference of it is it becomes the challenge of is that you know what? I have a gift, but I guess, and God told us, stir up the gift. I got that, but for leadership you gotta become a student. So you can stir the gift, but you must become the student of leadership to lead. And the challenge of it is is your best leadership is how far can you lead you?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 17:31

It's not even how far can I lead everybody else.

Dr. David Mills 17:34

See, jesus led himself everywhere. He led himself. He actually led himself to the cross. He led himself to Galilee, he led himself to the Gethsemane. They just followed where he was going. Wow, he was leading himself. The challenge of it is we wanna lead other people but we might not wanna lead our own self. And so Jesus knew where he was going. They just went on a trip where he was going, and he kept going to places where he would get in private places with God to pray, or he would get in private places to develop, or he would walk through processes, even in temptations. He would go through it wide.

Dr. David Mills 18:04

This is my process for leadership. I need to let you know I can conquer a devil. Now watch me. I need to let you know that I can handle a cross. Watch me. I need you to know I can handle the watch, this, the religious folk coming against the church, and I'll stand in the middle of it and still do my purpose. Watch me, because I'm gonna leave you and when I leave, you gonna have to learn how to go to the cross, handle your purpose, handle the religious folk, handle ministry when you come in there and you got enemies. But you're gonna have to watch it first. And that's leadership. I give you a window so you'll know what to do.

Dr. David Mills 18:37

Leadership does that? Leadership that shows you my strengths and my weaknesses, and I got all that with purpose. That's what I love about Jesus he shows them. I mean, he's leading while he bleeding on the cross. He's leading while he died in Kissimmee. He's still leading, no matter what's happening, he's leading. But what I love first he did was he spent 30 years as a student and only three as a pastor. Jesus, help me, help me somebody. Okay, he took a student class. He took a 30 year class in humanity how to deliver a house, how to be a husband, what it looks like to be a wife.

Dr. David Mills 19:17

I sat around Mary and Joseph for 18 years you know what I mean, took it to 30, I even worked for him for a little while. I learned carpentry skills and talents, and then I knew what it was to show up. I learned how to conform and transform stuff. Why? Cause I was hanging out with Joseph. So when it came to changing people, I had already changed wood trees to what's this. I had learned how to transform things before I even left Joseph house. So when a Peter walks up, I don't care what shape you show up, I know how to transform stuff. So he knows how to take people, no matter where they show up in, and position them and transform them for the kingdom purpose in their life. And I think that's the wonderful part of leadership. It's never really about us. It's about what can you bring? The kingdom talent gift calling anointing life and love out of somebody else.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 20:07

Oh man, that's good stuff. Thanks to, I mean, pastor David. That's man, that's good stuff. Watch me Making me even think about looking at the gospel in a different way. Just the change in my paradigm, that all of that. Yes, there was life lessons, but there was leadership lessons the whole time, because you gotta think about those that were following him became apostles, the leaders, but first we were disciples. All of that was leadership development wasn't it?

Dr. David Mills 20:45

First we disciples, because we gotta be students, because that's the process, because we will not be given leadership, we have to be students first. Wow, so they took a three and a half class, three and a half years and master level leadership.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 21:06

That's what they were. So he was giving up all of that is a master class. Only he was giving up a master class From disciples to come and find them. Come, follow me.

Dr. David Mills 21:18

You gotta go get them. Come on, come on you get them and come on. It was different. It wasn't them leaving, it was him leaving.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 21:35

A master class on leadership. Watch me, so I'm here in. Pastor Dave, if you're following a good leader, then you should be able to watch them and pick up some stuff by just watching them.

Dr. David Mills 21:51

Listen, that's why Elijah says he says I want to double anoint you. He don't say here, he says if you see me, if you see me when I leave, you can get this, but you gotta follow me and watch me go to Gilgown.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 22:06

Bethel, Jordan and Jericho Right, Didn't he have to go? You had to follow, watch him watch me, Come on cause.

Dr. David Mills 22:15

you need to know what the experience, the exposure becomes, the education. Jesus took time to give them experiences with him, exposure with him, even transformation of his own life. Why he goes up into the mountain and he transfers in front of them. Watch the leader change in front of you. Huh, so he watched, they watched. They get the education, the exposure, the transformation happens all in front of them. Then they get to see the humility of I'm an authority. Give me your feet in some work. Huh, All have this education.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 22:47

See, so, yeah, all that and that's he's teaching us. How do we train leaders, how to be a good leader? And so, okay, the people that we lead in our auxiliary, in the churches, our businesses, our ministry, the people we lead, can they watch us and learn? That's the question we have to ask Can people watch us and learn? And if they watch us, what are they?

Dr. David Mills 23:12

learning. I think it's mixed the difference, because the truth of the matter is the Pharisees and Sadducees wasn't watching it, they was watching church. They was watching Jesus, oh, all right. So oh, oh, oh, oh. That's why. That's why you can't trust them. Y'all was busy playing church. Y'all wanted the religious stuff. Y'all didn't want Jesus. He was pressing, he was. I was trying to give a class, but you wouldn't come sit. Now, the only one that escaped and did a night class was Nicodemus.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 23:41

Oh, oh man, oh, that's good. That's good man. I hope y'all pull. I hope, if you're still standing, go ahead and pull up a chair and sit at the table as we get this five fold food. That's room. Y'all make room. Pull up a chair and pull up a chair. Get some of this five fold food Past the day. Can you maybe help maybe one or two, or just some, maybe different maybe responsibilities or skills that leaders need to be confident. So, since we something we got to learn maybe they hadn't learned it or maybe they need to sharpen what are some specific Cause? We was talking preaching, which I got to get you back on. We got to talk about preaching now. So, while we're here, can I get your word that this won't be your last podcast that I can't get you on? We can talk about sermon development and how you get this revelation man, you're hermeneutic and your exegesis and all of that kind of talk. Can I get you back on for that?

Dr. David Mills 24:38

You already got that. You got me for like that, okay, okay, well, y'all heard it, put it in the chat.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 24:43

He said that I got him for like so I want to get your word. I've got to get y'all preachers word, cause y'all man and y'all work, because we'll deal with that and there's a place for that. You're hermeneutic, the exegetic, all that is good, but when we're talking about this leadership piece, when we're talking about, beyond what we're doing in the pulpit, in the leading, what are some of those skills or competencies that a leader may need to know about? That's beyond the oratory skills in terms of preaching the word.

Leadership Lessons From Jesus

Dr. David Mills 25:10

Sure, sure, I think the number one one. I would tell y'all, all pastors, ministers, man, you gotta love people. If you don't like people, don't leave, don't leave it. If you don't like, just don't, don't do it. Don't stop lying to yourself, stop it, stop it. You're gonna frustrate them and you're gonna frustrate you. If you don't like, you got to love people. And loving them means I love them when they good, love them when they bad, love them when they pretty, when they love them ugly. We just love people. And then and then, after you love people, can you be what you asking for?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 25:39

Whoo, I'm sorry, it just hit me. I didn't. That wasn't planted. If somebody stepped on your toe, it's like why are you making noise? It hit me, not that you stepped on my toe, but I felt that in my Come on, I know, come on, sit at the end.

Dr. David Mills 25:55

Jesus did. You said sit at the end. I'm gonna write that down. God wanted to save us from heaven. He couldn't save us from heaven. He had to be what he was asking for. Be what you're asking for. That's what Jesus had to do.

Dr. David Mills 26:07

Jesus was like I need to save people. Okay, I'm gonna go down here and I'm gonna be a saved person in front of him. I'm gonna be a leader. Why Cause I'm asking him to be one? I'm gonna be a demonstration of kingdom. Some of them are gonna be one. A demonstration of kingdom. I'm gonna be watch this send less. Don't mean I'm sinful, perfect, but I'm gonna send less than other folks.

Dr. David Mills 26:23

Why Cause I'm gonna be the demonstration of it. So I gotta be what I'm asking for as a leader. Oh, why are you asking? And so I think it's those things. And then I think we gotta make sure we do it first, and then we develop somebody else to do it and do it with them, and then do it in front of them and do it in the forum, and then we let them do it.

Dr. David Mills 26:43

We gotta be willing to release people in relationship, and I think it demands humility, maturity, I think it demands consistency, integrity. I think it demands the commitment to build your capacity. Whew, it's not just a passage job to build you, it's your job to build you. You should make yourself a better leader. Come on, cause, listen, if you come back the next year, you the same as you was last year. Then you didn't do a good job. It's not your faster, it's no. You should be growing so much. You're passing me like I gotta get you out of here. You know too much. Come on, I gotta let you get out of here. I gotta send you somewhere. You learn too much. It's time for you to, like somebody, grow up in the house. You know when your children are mature enough and old enough to get out. Why are we raising the people that we wanna put on? Pablo, I don't understand. I'm raising you to get up out of here. I'm not raising you to stay.

Dr. David Mills 27:33

So humility, consistency, integrity, all those things, capacity, understanding how, what a growth mindset is meaning. Other words, you will always grow. You will never stop learning, never stop growing, never stop changing my me. And me and Pastor Burn always laugh, cause, when she says something to me. She says I'm getting older. I said, no, I'm getting better. No, I defy that. No, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna be better on my last day than I was on my next day. It's an intentional mindset of growth and if you don't believe, it is Jesus did. Jesus actually kept growing. The Bible says that he kept growing and learning. So we gotta keep growing and learning. So I think those are some of the things that are necessary for a leader.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 28:11

Man, this is man, this good stuff, man. Man, I sense Vyn already working on it. Have you already working on it and doing it? That leadership book?

Dr. David Mills 28:26

I have not. But you know, every time you talk to me I end up with it. You talked to me with one book. You told me to build one about family. Now I am 10 books and deep because of you All. Right, now it might be another one, but leadership now.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 28:40

Have you done one on leadership before? I have not. Wow, you haven't. I have not. Man, yeah, you, I think you are. You getting it now? Chapter, chapter, chapter, chapter one. Be what you're asking for.

Dr. David Mills 28:56

Come on, man. God was asking for a kingdom, so his son became it.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 29:01

Yeah, and that's the man. All of that, the humility, all of that, the lessons to learn from Jesus man, you got that's your book, pastor Mille, and this is rich because, see, because that's the challenge Time leaders, if you want people to see, I see what your book can do. It gives a measuring rod, it gives a standard, a rubric by which you can measure your own leadership, your capacity, your development. Are you being what you asked for or are we fighting them out? So what for whoever you're leading in your family, for your children, for your job, your church, if you want them, you want them to go to next level. Are you going to the next level?

Dr. David Mills 29:50

Come on and, like you said, you got to be no matter where you at. And leaders lead in all of life, not in the part of life. Yeah, so we lead in our home. I can't ask my family to pray and I ain't praying.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 30:02

I can't ask them to pray, that's right man, be what you want, watch me, see, that's watch me, right, watch me. If they watch you, what do they see?

Dr. David Mills 30:10

Come on, man, and they're going to reproduce what they see, not always what you say.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 30:16

Yeah, you know what's been saying that you don't reproduce what you teach. You reproduce who you are. Shoo, shoo, shoo, shoo. You don't reproduce what you preach and teach you reproduce what you are.

Dr. David Mills 30:32

Come on, man, come on.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 30:34

I'm looking forward to that Pastor.

Dr. David Mills 30:35

Mille, I'm looking forward to that book. You already challenged me already.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 30:42

I'm looking forward to that. Pastor Mille is there. When we look at Jesus life, we see the stories, the interactions with the disciples, sure, sure, and you have been changing my paradigm. You shifted me because now I can even look at what I'm seeing through a leadership lens. That he was. It was a lesson on leadership. Some of them was some introductory classes, one on one, but some of them was a master class. But in all it's a master class. He was showing how you prepare next level leaders and it started with him first Come on.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 31:21

The 30 by himself. It started before. It didn't start with the sermon on the mount. It started with him submitting himself to authority. Come on for 30 years, now 30 years.

Dr. David Mills 31:33

You didn't ministry for three and a half. We keep messing it up. We think we should be doing ministry. No, no, no. Can you do life for 31st?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 31:41

That shows the importance of development. Yes, yes, yes. And look what his first miracle was Mama released him into authority. Look at when he went to get baptized. Submit on authority the whole time. It started with that right If before, are the miracle. Not he to John, and this is I'm not worthy or not? Shoshu, he submitted, he submitted.

Dr. David Mills 32:08

That's that humility. That's that humility, and I think humility is the gate key to authority. Anytime he was submitted and he, matter of fact, the miraculous doesn't show up till he submits. Don't ever show up. It does. He's on the planet 30 years but nothing miraculous happens till. Mama says, whatever he say, his humility opened up a door for miraculous authority and then it happens again. Matter of fact. What's really crazy is God's voice doesn't show up till he submits, not in Jesus life. The Bible says that when he went to John the Baptist and he says that ties me, he said I'm not going to bat. He said bat time he baptizes him and for the first time his father speaks when, when he submitted. So some of us ain't heard his voice yet because we didn't submit it yet.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 32:57

And that's the, that's the leadership template, that's the journey, that's good and man.

Dr. David Mills 33:07

So you know. I mean, we're one kingdom, but we don't want his pattern. We want kingdom, but we don't want his process. We want kingdom, but we don't want his way. We want our way or our way. He's like no, that ain't my way or my way, and that's why you don't see the miraculous.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 33:21

You bless me, man, god, you blessing the hungry man. Go back and look the word of God through another lens that you know that it was a that's so good man that's worth it right there, that it was a masterclass in leadership. You know, wow, and so it's through the stories all how he dealt with things, how he dealt with people. So is there a story or something, a personal story in your life you know that may highlight the importance of effective leadership outside the church? You know, maybe something in you that we can contextualize it, that help you realize outside of your preaching and teaching.

Leadership Development Through Pain and Forgiveness

Dr. David Mills 33:58

I think the greatest thing that actually helped me down was being crushed in mature. Yeah, I see, I think many people want the oil but they don't realize oil then comes to some crush, so you know what I mean. So for me, I went to this church, man joined. He was a fiery pastor, man gifted. I mean, this dude was a nonic called sing, preach, teach everything. But he was intimidated by us and I didn't even know it, I was just so enamored with the opportunity just to serve somebody that was that gifted. I didn't see if he was mature. And so you know, during the time we were there, actually what had happened, man, was he put us over the children, the children ministry blew up. He put us over the marriage, the children, the marriage ministry blew up. Then he was like what y'all trying to do? I said we trying to build the church. But he thought it was. He was intimidated by it. And so much to the point that he actually told he brought us into the office One day and said, listen, you got to go, but your wife can stay. What, what, what. And I was young. I was young in ministries.

Dr. David Mills 35:05

By my second year, first year ministry, I was like this is what this is, what church is about. You know what I'm saying. And now he was about six, five, about 300 pounds, I mean big dude sitting on the other side of the desk, and I was like, no, that ain't gonna happen. He says, well, you can stay, but she got to go. One of y'all can't stay here. I said, if one of us, we both have to leave. Next thing, I know, the desk begin to move toward us, and I ain't talking about slow either. Ha ha, ha, ha ha. We. So, man, this cat, six, like six, four. My man, 300 pounds, got up. The desk flipped up and I had to push the desk back and I was like Jesus, I don't wanna go back to hood dating. I wanna go back to the one that was on the corner selling drugs. I was, you know, not me, man, but this is my wife, man, and we about to be fisted up and up in here.

Dr. David Mills 35:53

And that day, man, he told me get out. And I was like ain't no problem. And he kicked us out of his church. All right, and I'm gonna tell you straight up I quit ministry. That day I said God, I have disassured, I don't want to. The heck with all this. I could get this in the street. Ha ha ha ha.

Dr. David Mills 36:11

But what happened was God will always have a barnabas for us all for a silence for us all. He will always have somebody in the cut, which was a friend of ours that we had just met not so long ago, was going to some counseling classes. I needed somebody to talk to. I talked to him. He said hey, man, come to our church, we'll cover you. And I didn't realize it. But the pastor's, pastor's church was where we were going and we went over there. The bishop pastor told me listen, son, stay here. I would take care of that because he shouldn't have did that to you. And we stayed there.

Dr. David Mills 36:42

But the hurt and the wounds of being wounded in ministry made me not want to do it. I was like I ain't doing this, I don't want to be involved with somebody hurting. And here's what God said to me that wasn't me, that was him. I said oh God, you're right. You're right, that wasn't even you. He said was that my character? No, was that my order? No, was that my will? No, was that my nature? No, he says okay, then, that wasn't me, that was him. Now can you excuse my children, but I'm still your father, jesus. I said, okay, fix my heart, fix my heart. Then, god and he had to, because the person did some really wrong.

Dr. David Mills 37:29

When you stuff down, I mean he called the wonderful thing about integrity is this we lived in our city for about 15 years before that, and so the church we're going through was outside the city. He tried to call the pastors of the city and tell them that we was doing something crazy, and all the pastors of the city said don't talk to us again. We know their character. That's why they're integrity, that's why that consistency, that's why that humility, that's why that stability is so important. Your character will fight off anybody that comes against you more than you can. So they rebelled against him and they told us come on back home. The Lord told us to stay in the safe space and we did. Now it taught me. I got so much from that. That masterclass down. That was that was my masterclass. That taught me what not to do as a leader. Hurt other people people, discredit people, talk about people, hurt, wound people. Leave them hurting, wounded, wound other people around other people. Don't use the poor pit to hurt other people.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 38:28

I mean.

Dr. David Mills 38:28

I got classes on that man I got. I got a masterclass of ministry, but it cost me something and some hurt, some embarrassment. Yeah, that's, that's part of the process. I think ministry costs Jesus his life. So is that? I mean, you know, so I'm still living, so I ain't paid the same cost. Oh, that's good stuff.

Dr. David Mills 38:49

So we hurt, we wounded man, but God brought a silence out of nowhere, a born beside a nowhere man. He covered us and helped us and encouraged us and he kept us and he helped us to get back on our feet. And then eventually, man God brought that thing around to the point that years and years later, I actually had a member that used to go to his church who about 10 years later joined our church. When she passed, she wrote in her, she wrote in her will that you do, you do, you do, you do the whole, the whole service. But you have him no-transcript. She set me up in a really good way.

Dr. David Mills 39:25

So when he came into the service I said everybody, welcome, welcome, pastor. So and so he's here. He's going to bless us with song. He's a gifted musician, he's a powerful pastor. Come on, man God, come on and sing. And he didn't know what to do. I had already forgave him, I already released him, but he was struggling and I learned the power of forgiveness that day. And that day, man, he could sing, but he was so uncomfortable because I could still love you even after you hurt me.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 39:53

You helping ministers to realize that pain was meant for that game. It was meant to develop them, not destroy them. And when you said that when we see someone flowing and gifting power and anointing, that's someone who's been crushed.

Dr. David Mills 40:13

You don't get to see the back story. You know what I'm saying, you're right. We get to see covers but not chapters.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 40:21

Yeah, see, that's it. You don't know the back story man, that's good, and I think that's part of the leadership development. The pain that we go through is part of your development as a leader Sometimes what to do, what not to do but all that we encounter, what I'm seeing, dave, when we are leaders. I think, by being a five-fold ministry gift, you become what I call a de facto leader by virtue of your calling. You didn't ask for it because you're an evangelist. I mean, you're a apostle, you're a prophet, you're an evangelist, pastor, teacher.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 41:01

By virtue of your calling, you move into a certain dimension of leadership in the kingdom. You didn't ask for it. So, since we're there now, that wasn't a gift. Now, you got to develop that, though, and so I think, now that they have to be developed, you have to start looking at all that you encounter in life. All your pain, your problems, your perplexities is part of your leadership development. You're just not going through it, but you got to look at how it's trying to develop you as a leader, not just as a preacher.

Dr. David Mills 41:35

I think that's the right thing, but as a chairman, look how you can serve and lead through this.

Dr. David Mills 41:40

See, I think we've got two things there. One of them is that I think that back in the day we've been messed up by these instant cameras. Back in the day we had them as we took a picture of, and it was black when it first showed up and it took time to develop. That's what happens. Then you know the picture is already taken. Yeah, drop it off. Sometimes it might take three, four days a week. Come on, man. And so the challenge of it is we think that it's automatic, it's instant, it's not, I'm sorry. It's a process, and if it took Jesus 30 and 3 1⁄2 years to be ready for his, it's going to take us some time to do it too. 40 years for Moses, 17 years with David, 15 years with Joseph, and you want it tomorrow, come on. So you think that's a what you said.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 42:23

That's a misconception, because I think that kind of leads us to mindsets and misconceptions. Are there any mindsets and misconceptions that ministers have about leadership?

Dr. David Mills 42:35

I think there's a bunch of them. To tell you the truth, man, because I think the challenge becomes, you know, those challenges of leaders, you know, I think it's a process in which the misconception is that you are your gift. Did I say that out loud? I didn't say that out loud.

Dr. David Mills 42:52

I'm not my gift, I'm David, that's. All that happens is, if I don't steward David, david won't even be good with the gift, and so the truth of the matter is, if my mental state is not right, my mental health is not right, my physical health is not right, my relational health is not right, my gift is going to be hampered. I don't care what you say. Now the gift can work, but it won't work at its best. Why? Because I got all these other issues tied to it, and so I think sometimes it's a misconception and those phrases of those processes. I think sometimes too, we've got to learn to slow down rather than be trying to rush vision. It takes time, and then, when we're dealing with people, we've got to remember that some of those issues is that the misconception is that just because I'm gifted, I'm the leader.

Dr. David Mills 43:34

No, no no, no, paul had a bunch of gifted people around him. There's some great gifted people. All of the disciples was gifted, but all of them are leaders. And so it's the reality that people can be gifted but not be the leader. And can you be okay with being gifted but not the leader? Can you okay be being a Joshua when it's Moses, when you're on the scene with a Moses? Can you be Miriam in the process of the process? You still going to be on the pages. Come on, you're still going to be celebrated. You're still going to be known. We're still going to read about you. You're just not the leader. And you're still gifted. You're just not the leader, but you still are known for everything.

Dr. David Mills 44:15

And, matter of fact, some of the greatest people in the Word of God are never leaders, they worshipers. It's like the woman that broke the box. He said no matter where this gospel go, she ain't even a leader, but she used what she had and she gave what she could and she broke whatever she broke. And she didn't watch. This put limits on it that whatever I got, I'm going to give it all to Jesus and I don't have to be a leader to do it. And what messed them up was. She did it in front of other people that thought they was leaders. We got half of the disciples Listen, half of the disciples ain't never mentioned, but this woman is. Anyway, man, go ahead, go ahead, man. I'm sorry.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 45:00

No man. That's good because you're opening up the concept. What I'm seeing is, in certain aspects, you're not going. You're not like you said. You're not going to be the leader. You're not going to be the leader In that context with Joshua, like, say, moses. He wasn't that leader but because of the way he dealt with that season that's the development that season the disciples were not always leading when the time, in the place, in the space where God knew he had to grace, then he could be able to run his leadership race. I love that and that's what I'm saying. You find your leadership race because when you were in place doing that, there'll come a place, a space with your grace, that your leadership race might not be mine.

Dr. David Mills 45:47

You might not be to pray late. I wish that space is called weight management. I call it weight management, not W-E-I-G-H, w-a-i-t. Can you manage? While you wait, come on. Ruth has to do weight management. She has to weight manage. Watch this, naomi, before she gets Boaz. What was I doing that whole time? Weight management. I was doing weight management until somebody else. The whole time, until my field showed up. But because I handled weight management right, god could trust me with something else. If I do weight management right, like Elijah with Elijah, he was doing weight management what does the ideal of somebody serving that person that long? I was doing weight management and you will never get to assignment without a season of weight management.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 46:31

Yeah, wow, that's good. I mean, I think that's all a part of your development. Why not now? Why I'm not the main? It ain't your time to be the main? That's still part of your development because when your time comes, you're going to know how to move in the right way. I think I love that weight management. So, pastor Mille, let's look at this. Is there a specific mistake? I want you to hit that real quick. If you thought Is there a mistake? We see the misconception, but there are mistakes that ministers might make in their role that might get them in a pitfall. A mistake, an error that they made, a mistake that may make in their leadership? Sure.

Dr. David Mills 47:19

I think the first one is easy man Trying to please people and that guy.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 47:27

How does the leader fall into that? How does the leader fall into that? Real easy?

Dr. David Mills 47:33

I want attention, I want to be celebrated, I want affection. And so, all of a sudden, I will close my eyes to problems, close my eyes to convictions, close my eyes to sin. Why? Because I want the people. And so the same thing, what happened to Saul, happens to most leaders I fall in love with people and lose the purpose.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 47:58

So you just said earlier, we got to love, right, yeah? And on the other side of that, you don't want to fall in love with the people you forget your purpose and this is the key to it.

Dr. David Mills 48:08

This is what Jesus taught me. This is how I helped him. I got hurt again, but he taught me the class. I told you the whole management class. So he says listen, can you love them deeply and hold them loosely? That's what Jesus did. He helped everybody, loved everybody deeply, but he held them loosely. That's why you can still kiss Judas. You can kiss Judas if you hold it. You love them deeply, but I'm holding you loosely because I know, peter, I know you're crazy. I'm going to love you deeply, but I'm going to hold you loosely because you're about to disappear and this clock is going to probe three times and you're going to tell me you're going to be with me, but you ain't going to be with me. So I'm going to love you deeply but I'm going to hold you loosely because I know you're crazy. That's why the scripture says Jesus says I know what's in man, what Human nature.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 48:57

So I said, why, why, why tell him that is human nature, why, why?

Dr. David Mills 49:06

Well, somebody said right here so I think, I think sometimes the mistakes is on us, is expecting some things, and sometimes we want to deliver people that don't want to be delivered. You trying to deliver people that don't want to be delivered After you said it to them, told it to them, told you to them. You know you can't keep on. You can't make somebody change. They have to choose that. I can't be your God. God, that's God's job. My job is I'm a proliferator of believers. My job is to help proliferate. My job is not to do it for you.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 49:44

That's good stuff, man.

Dr. David Mills 49:48

I give you what you could increase your life with, build your life with, change your life with. But I'm not the one going to change your life, and so falling into the trap of that can mess you up. And then sometimes we think, watch this, the call is greater than the convictions. And we miss it up because, watch this, if you lose your convictions, you probably gonna lose your call.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 50:08

Mm, mm, mm, mm.

Dr. David Mills 50:13

Man, this is good. Your marriage is your first ministry. Stop trying to fall in love with his wife and be in adultery and go love yours. Woo shut up. Did I say that loud? I didn't say that loud, I didn't say that loud.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 50:25

I'm sorry, dad, I didn't mean to say that Are you good? No, man.

Dr. David Mills 50:28

We fall in love with his wife. He asked you to fall in love with yours. All right, I'm sorry, I might not get back on my feet, and that's the problem.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 50:37

That's the mistake, that's the problem.

Dr. David Mills 50:39

That's good, that's a mistake, mm, mm. So all of those things I think are major keys of where we can really make some major mistakes in the ideal of our life and so I think that those things play a big role on that and the ideal of that and the ideal of just, you know, walking through those places that create big mistakes in those places.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 50:57

Man, that's good. I know you talked about your story with the encounter with the pastor, with the test. Get flipped over and all of that. You learn from the negative aspect of what not to do, yeah, and out of that pain that taught you something? Yeah, is there a flip side? Any is a story or something that counted with a good leader, something that you learn, a lesson that we can you know we can eat from what you got. From that you know a lesson that you learn from a leader that help you?

Dr. David Mills 51:30

Sure, I'll put it this way. I think that leadership comes many folded, and what I mean by that is I've been really blessed in the idea that I learned leadership from many different people. My first pastor man. He loved the word of God. Oh, he made me fall in love with Jesus because he preached so hard. You know what I mean. You know what I mean. So I had a love for the word through him. But then I went to this counseling school and when I got there this was this other pastor man. His name is Dr Willie Richardson man. He had one of the biggest churches in Philly, but everybody knew him because how he loved his wife and he was a total.

Dr. David Mills 52:09

I was like I got the word from one, but this thing about loving your wife and your family was different. He was the first African-American man I ever saw open up a door for a woman, walk her to the table, pull her coat off, slowly, slide her down into her chair, take the napkin and put it on her lap and already sit down his stuff and then declare what she wanted to eat before she even said anything. I said what the devil is that? So one gave me the word, but the other one taught me how to love my wife. People made that. I watched. That was like you know. That helped me from a distance, was like the Dr Mazma Rose, the Bishop to our Bismarck that's where my revelation came from was I need to see something different. There was bigger than tradition, and I need to see something that was functioning. The other person was Dr Cindy Trem. I never heard kingdom the way that woman had got taught it. I never did and still have any. I haven't met a man that could teach kingdom like her, except Dr Marrow. And so all of them became I'm a combination of all of them, not one of them. That's why I'm now. It's like many foldedness. So the ideal for me is the ideal that Jesus had the windows, and Jesus had windows too, and I think Jesus windows were John the Baptist. He saw him preaching and teaching. He saw that Jesus spent a lot of time in the synagogue bikes the ideal of what a lot of people in this world think that people don't go to church. Jesus went to church every week. That's why he's teaching in the synagogue, going to the synagogue. The synagogue was the church. He showed up every week. So Jesus actually sat under a lot of teachers. Wow, he was a teacher.

Leadership and Accountability in Ministry

Dr. David Mills 53:43

So the idea was you have to keep growing and learning through this process of who we are, for development and being able to learn who you're supposed to guarantee both the negative but also the positive. And then I think the other side is putting yourself get some great books. That's why, you see this, I have to change my shelves about every two years. I refuse to stop learning. I refuse to stop learning. I'm gonna learn till I die, and so I'm gonna keep on buying books. I'm gonna keep on reading. I'm gonna go to conferences, I'm gonna go to classes. I'm gonna go to pastors classes, I'm gonna go to ministry classes, church classes why, why not be my best? But the only way I can do that is to keep learning, and so those things help me continue to grow. And then the other thing is having what I call two things People over me, people with me and people under me.

Dr. David Mills 54:31

All of them hold me in accountability. My apostle, he holds me in accountability. Now he can call me today and if he says stop, right now, I'm gonna jump off this slide. But he also can call me and say what's going on with you on a burn, and I'm gonna tell him whether it's good or bad. If it's bad, I'm gonna call him. Hey, man, you need to help us, we need to go to dinner, y'all need to talk to us. And yes, he holds me in check. Yes, he does.

Dr. David Mills 54:53

Then I got my leadership. Why? Because they open to my world and my life. And these are the later people. These are the covenant people, not the engagement. All right. So the covenant they can check me. Hey, fast, what was going on that day? What was happening? You all right, what's going on? They called me in accountability and then I'm accountable for my kids and family under me that if I make crazy decisions, it's gonna affect them too. So there's accountability over me, with me and under me. And then I'm accountable to friends like you. You ain't got no friends that can call you, check you and challenge you. You're in trouble.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 55:29

All right, man, that's good. I like that. It's multi-dimensional and from different leaders and people you learn a different aspect of leadership. They impact you in a different way. What I'm picking up, what I'm processing that, david, it hits me is that you learn kingdom from trim. You learn from the other leader how to deal with your wife. From someone else, you learn it gave you an appetite from the word. Not that you learn, but it bettered you. It led you into deeper realms of the word. It led you to be a better wife. You were led to have a greater understanding and moving in the kingdom.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 56:12

So what I'm hearing is and I won't challenge ministers to think about your leadership then leadership if it's multifaceted, it's beyond. Yeah, you lead in the pulpit, do that, but it's beyond what you do there, even in the church, but outside. But it's your area of influence where you cause others to move to another place, and you need to discover that, finding your voice. So you find in your voice and your message. That's a part of your leadership too that I'm picking up, and yet it'll take place in the pulpit. But you got to look at it as leadership, not just a sermon or a message. Yeah, we lead in the pulpit, but we were looking at it outside of just when I said outside of the pulpit, when we talk about leaders that excel, they know how to lead. Well, we were talking about Pastor Dave more so, just not about your sermon.

Dr. David Mills 57:15

No, I think that's the challenge too Dall, because we have a messed up diet. As preachers, our dietary issues are messed up. We eat more for people than we eat for ourselves. Whoop, ha ha ha ha. Hmm, listen, man, you gotta have two diets. You gotta have watch this. I gotta diet for David and then I gotta diet for through the word. Ha ha ha. David is gonna eat two chapters a day and then Pastor is gonna study and prepare for preparation of the sermon his Thursdays and Fridays. There ain't nothing to do with that. All the rest of the days I'm eating for David. Yeah.

Dr. David Mills 58:00

Because if I'm not full, the pastor ain't full. If my person ain't full, I mean he is a pastor ain't full.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 58:08

I got to feel me and when I'm here and see that's good, dave, when you say you got a diet for you and the people. As a leader, when you have that personal time where it's not sermon prep, when it's not about a sermon and you're fencing and you're learning, you're growing. That's when you find your leadership voice. Yes, you find your place. Of what do you mean your leadership? The place, the space that you call to have dominion at and you can influence other. And it'll come in form of a message. You might have a message of prayer or intercession, or with marriage or kingdom, or breaking generational curses, or stuff like that.

Dr. David Mills 58:49

I think what we do is they make people. We end up as preachers falling in love with the art but not falling in love with growth. So we love the art of preaching but we don't love the art of building the person. And what Jesus spent 30 years doing was 30 years. He built the person and he only preached during the hat. So again, maybe, maybe we invested too much into the wrong thing. All right. So if I invested into the person, my preaching will automatically grow. If I pour into the person, I will be a stronger as a preacher.

Dr. David Mills 59:28

So the private time, and I think when revelation comes, revelation is a combination of what you did privately and what you did what you did privately. That's why John gets to revelation on a pat and that's why I got him in isolation, in separation. He ain't around no crowd. He's saying, he's saying he's saying he's just being in him. That's why he's giving revelation at God. This wasn't about anybody but me and him. And I think so many times we build the stuff of congregation but we're not building our personal. We're building our personal life. Is my prayer life stronger than my preaching life? And you ain't seen your best preaching till. Your prayer life is stronger than your study life. Whew.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:00:04

That's good stuff, man you have it.

Dr. David Mills 1:00:07

No, no, no, no, no. You ain't got revelation till you got a better conviction. You ain't got it, you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:00:15

That's good, dave man, that's good. And many times what lead leaders into prayer, that cause leaders to prayer when they're dealing with people, problems and conflicts and issues. And so can you offer some advice for ministers and leaders, past or whatever that might be with the ushers, sure, maybe with the children's church, sure, it might be even in the entrepreneurial thing in business. But just with giving some wisdom, some insight on how to lead in dealing with people, problems and conflicts, how to handle that, what's some tips?

Dr. David Mills 1:00:51

and wisdom you can give. I'm saying for me, pat down. My problem was my prison was my problem. What I mean by that is the way I saw conflict was a fight, no matter what. Whatever you thought was conflict, I thought always all conflicts are fight, but they're not. Some conflicts are negotiations. They sit down at the table and they discuss how to buy a business and nobody raises their voice and we transect millions in dollars in business with a negotiation. But you thought it was confrontation. It was. Confrontation can be a negotiation. Confrontation can be correction, not discipline cause. Discipline means somebody got hurt. Correction means somebody got changed.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:01:28

So you jumping bars man.

Dr. David Mills 1:01:35

So I just think, man. I think that some issues of learning, see, correction goal is always restoration. So even when we correct people, I tell them hey, listen, what you did was really wrong. You offended so and so you did this, you wrong. We're gonna sit you down for 45 days. Then we gonna bring you back. Guess what I just did? I told you I'm gonna correct you, but I just told you I'm gonna restore.

Dr. David Mills 1:01:56

You See, we discipline people without giving them hope. That's why they left, had you told them, I'm gonna bring you back and I'm gonna see you in 40 days you gonna be back up there, worship and lead a worship, and 60 days you gonna lead worship. But now, during this 60 days, I'm gonna need to talk to you once a week. I'm gonna need you to read this book about character development. Then I'm gonna walk with you. I'm gonna call you every week. Once a week, you'll find out and you're gonna send me an email on every chapter and I'm gonna meet with you at that somewhere to eat. We gonna hang out, we gonna kick it, cause I'm still building a relationship, cause I'm not just building a position, I'm trying to build a person. So when they get back up. After 60 days. They actually stronger than what they were.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:02:38

When they've jacked up and left.

Dr. David Mills 1:02:42

So negotiation sometimes is separation. The ideal of confrontation is hey, listen, we're not gonna be to do this anymore. You know what? I love you and I appreciate you, but right now you're gonna have to leave the church and I still love you, but you can't do this here, come on. That's what Paul and Barnabas had to do at that moment. We had a disagreement, but we had to have separation, and it was confrontation. They didn't punch nobody, they didn't hit nobody, they ain't screaming holla. They just had different opinions about John Mark. But it was confrontation. Why we was doing miraculous stuff. But we can't do it cause now we're not in agreement. I still love you, barnabas, paul, I still like you too, but we got this.

Dr. David Mills 1:03:18

This confrontation is means of separation. So there's times when it means separation that you gotta do, and sometimes you gotta make separation for vision. Okay, abraham said a lot. Hey, bro, this ain't gonna work with you here. I appreciate you. You're still gonna be my nephew. You know what I mean, nephew, you're my nephew, but we can't do this together, no more. And so there's levels to this thing, and I think that there's so many different things the way to do it. Couples have confrontation all the time, but they don't always get divorced. Healthy confrontation comes with a solution or resolution or restoration, and that should be the goal of any confrontation. I'm not fighting with nobody, just to fight with them. No, can we help you? To restore you, to bring resolution, to bring a solution? That's the only reason I'm in. If I can't do those three things, we probably know what gonna have to do the separation piece. You gonna have to go.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:04:14

And I can still love you from afar, man. That's the way you laid that out. There's no, it's not cookie cutter when you're dealing with people, problem and conflict. So if you're gonna be a good leader, you need to have a framework, and you gave a framework. You gave framework that it starts with your prism, your paradigm, how you see this problem, the situation, your outlook gonna change the outcome. So you gotta start with that and you laid out the framework that sometimes it's a negotiation. It sometimes is gonna understand the correction versus discipline.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:04:58

We're trying to we ain't trying to nobody to get hurt change, but then the whole restoration plan, dealing with it, and then the whole process of seeing them through the journey, giving them hope. That's how you deal with problems. So if you're gonna be a good problem solver, you need frameworks, you need this kind of dialogue, and so, again, that's the mills man. I'm looking forward. I can't wait to you able to release this in the body. That's a chapter man. You making me work already, dad. All right, that's a chapter man, because how many pastors don't have that? How many are possible? But that's what Jesus did with Peter.

Dr. David Mills 1:05:40

You know what I mean. He goes crazy, but I left the window open for that. I came to where you are. Confidentiation, do you love me? Why? Because I want you to feed my sheep. Restoration Come on, I was trying to help you understand. I know you may have made situation bad, but I can restore you and you a solution. So, even though you got a problem right now, you still my solution.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:06:05

But the whole journey. How many pastors don't have a framework or pattern we're dealing with? How many who are bishops or overseas got leaders under them? Do you have that problem? Or you willy nilly? Do you have a framework? You know, sometimes we can get out of balance. I'm not going to throw them away, but you didn't give them a structure, place to help them grow from that place. Sometimes you tell them never to go to that place but you didn't give them a system to grow from that place. And that's why you said we're going to read the book and not only we're going to. I'm going to tell you accountable. So there's accountability. Sometimes you need to get where there's not a visibility. That might be a part of restoration.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:06:48

But it's like and it's working with it and still like. We still maintain a relationship, though. So it's a lot of wisdom in that, pastor Mills, that I'm looking forward to you helping, and not only on that level pastorial, apostolic or bishop but then you over the praise team, you over the children, you over the parking lot, the bookstore, you know the outreach ministry, whatever, now, the people under you. Now there's things that you've got to be able to deal with and you need to be able to deal with it. How to framework to make it work, yeah.

Dr. David Mills 1:07:24

The beautiful thing about this too, is that I'm telling you truth. Normally when it happens in our church, nobody knows what us, me and Pastor Byrne. Nobody else is told. So for anybody to know it, you would have to tell.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:07:36

So you just not, you don't have, you don't put them on the front row.

Dr. David Mills 1:07:41

No, they in the church. They come in the check. They just ain't out on the pulpit. They might not be leading the thing, but they there, but it's still gonna serve. You can still help, you still do whatever we want to do, but right now, though, being over, it is not there, but we are with you and your process, and I'm gonna walk you through it to restore you. You know, I think it's like becoming stints to a broken leg.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:07:59

Hmm.

Dr. David Mills 1:08:00

I know it's broke, but I got to come alongside the whole in place till it heals, hmm, and I can come away from it because it can hold and normally that leg is stronger than the other one. That wasn't broke.

Leadership and Relevance in Modern Society

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:08:14

Mmm. Yeah, it's gonna be minutes gonna be good. Good, this book gonna be good. Man, before we get ready to wind this down, this has been so good I see the waitress that they're starting the vacuum clean, you know, and they tell the week finish. Y'all, go ahead and finish. Today. They Get out of final glasses and stuff like that.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:08:38

This been good eating man. This is how we excel. We eat Well, this is good leadership food to help awaken the leader. And I'm praying that the leader in you is being awakened Because that's what's gonna cause you to excel with.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:08:51

Again, I'll just say we look at a. You know, you know my pastor friends will look at a. David Mills will see what you're doing, you're ministry, or go to a tailor-made or will see your life to man, see you, preach, you hear you there and it's like man. Man, that's a blessing and they'll equate All of you, most of your success. And what you're doing is like he got revelation, like his wife. They're knowing to mmm. They didn't realize.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:09:16

No, there's a leadership dimension that he ain't just, he ain't talking about it, he preaching about it. But that's why he's full, he's leading the family, mm-hmm, leading self. That's why he's there. That's why the opportunities and doors are open, because there was a self leadership, yeah, yeah. So that's why I want to emphasize the importance of that and so, with different you to. You know Instagram, all the stuff happening in social media and technology. Things are changing. You know. We know the message is the same, but that our methods and mindset and skill set. You know that it's a change. How can we deal with all of that and be relevant? Can you talk about that? With? With so much changing in society, how do we deal without all the things and and stay relevant? You know?

Dr. David Mills 1:10:13

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. I think that, um One, I think that we got to know, without a doubt, that we have been called for the season, we in mmm. What I mean by that simply is this I don't think Peter could survive right now. I don't think and I'm Paul would be in a whole lot of debates if he was online. But because we are, but because we are who we are and where we are, there are certain things about our own life that we got to know. Like I wanted one of the verses. That's my life verse.

Dr. David Mills 1:10:52

For me, it says this it says David, after he has served his own generation and, by the will of God, fell asleep, it was laid for his father's assault corruption. What I love about that is my job is to serve my generation, which means everything that God wants from me. He gave for me to serve the kingdom in this generation. That's why he chose me as a person. That's crazy. That's crazy. So he says I knew you could handle. You know Facebook, instagram. You are knowing you are anointing your calling, your gifting, your all of that faith in whatever it is LinkedIn, whatever you you can handle this and your life and your gifts are Expected to be able to have success on this, and I think that's part of it. I think it's the other part of that having a balance of realizing that anointing without integrity is ugly you know what I mean it is and it's realizing that the ideal, that that, without you know, the anointing without character is a manipulator. It's understanding the anointing without discipline gonna be a problem. It's understanding that the anointing without patience will create a mess. It's just understanding that the ideal anointing without conviction will give birth to self-destruction. It's it's understanding that the anointing without a commitment will bring disappointment, some stuff. We're gonna have to know that even anointing without holding this is fake. It's just what it is. It's righteous, it's. The anointing without righteousness will fail at its purpose, and so all those things are part of it. But I think they'd be able to be relevant Is this is that you've been called with the word that can change the world you live in, and the word of God.

Dr. David Mills 1:12:27

And when I go to the scriptures that I go. I go stupid. Pray for me. I go stupid. I go to the scripture. Every time I look at the scripture I like I don't know nothing. So the Holy Ghost can teach me everything.

Dr. David Mills 1:12:38

There's a scripture over in signs 111. That's my favorite. He says this he's has literally opened my eyes to the wonderful things in your word, oh, shut up. Which means I never go looking for what I heard, I never go looking for what somebody said. I'm too busy looking for the wonderful things that's in his word. And so revelation is the combination of what was written and what is spoken, with a combination of bringing them together for producing a kingdom and kingdom expression in our world, and it's marrying that. And if and if you are in the world, but not of the world, you can manage to to the world. The only time the church gets a problem is that when we try to become something we're not I'm not the, I'm not the world of the church, but I can reach them, and everything they're lacking is everything we have.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:13:27

Hmm.

Dr. David Mills 1:13:29

And then my job with the word is simply this to get that revelation. And then I become a servant. I know what temperature, who I'm serving, where I'm serving it, at, the culture I'm serving it in, and Then, when I serve them at the temperature that they, that they needed, that they wanted, that they get it and they enjoy so much, they don't even realize they just ate the word themselves.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:13:56

That's good day. What would you say day before we close? The minister, not since this by the spirit, I want you to just take a moment, minister to them. You know that could be a pastor, parcel, evangelist, minister, and, and and this does like a resistance Of this technology and social media doesn't mean everybody gonna be on LinkedIn and everybody don't have a YouTube channel and everybody gonna, you know, maybe do a podcast, or everybody might do a Mastermind and, you know, do all this social media thing, whatever. But, like you said, though, we're here for this generation, to serve it. What would you say? Just speak to the minister, them, to encourage them that, you know, man, they almost feel ill equipped, or they, they, they stagnate, that they're, they're resistant to to grow to. You know, 20 years ago, we weren't doing this because we didn't have this.

Dr. David Mills 1:14:56

No, no, you know we need it, so can you speak there maybe help, because I don't want, because what I don't want them to do.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:15:04

I don't want them to become outdated and antiquated.

Global Leadership and Kingdom Impact

Dr. David Mills 1:15:09

I feel, I feel and I'm a tiny, straight up before COVID, I want all of. I wasn't, but what blessed me was I found out two things. One of them is this is that, in different situations, god will always find a way that the word will always be able to reach the world. And because the gospel has to go around the world, do you know how ingenious it was to be To hear me I ain't saying God calls a cause COVID, but to allow it so that everybody had to come to their screens All day because it wasn't the world's you could go. How else could you reach all the world if all the world had to stop? So I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I get an Airbnb in another city and have an upper-home experience. Come on, come on. You will not find, see, the challenges are creativity. There was nobody more creative than the Creator Himself.

Dr. David Mills 1:16:43

Jesus was in a field, walking, talking about wheat. Jesus was talking about I walked past a bush killing that bush. He would, I mean, whatever it was. You know what? I was with a woman by the water, by the well, and I told her that she was thirsty. What? Nobody was more creative than Jesus. And Jesus is saying creativity is already in you because I'm the one that created you.

Dr. David Mills 1:17:06

Do not box Jesus into our religious process that you can't reach people. There are people waiting for your life online and you used to think that your ministry was local. Can I make an announcement? If you are knowing it, your ministry is global. It's no longer a congregation waiting on you, it's humankind waiting on you. Right now, we got members in Atlanta. We got members in North Carolina. I'm like how in the world did this happen, jesus? Because you didn't put limitations on me. So they're sewing, they fly in on big services. They actually take a plane flight. They go we having a service, a big service that they can. I fly in, pastor, I ain't paying for it. They're like I know I'm coming and they fly in and I'm going.

Dr. David Mills 1:17:55

God, what is this? He says this is kingdom. It ain't religious church. The fish can come from every place. Stop thinking that it's just one kind of people that want your ministry. When Peter pulled up that net, it was 153 fish. What does that mean? There are 153 different nationalities on the planet and God want to catch fish from every nationality. So white fish, black fish, puerto Rican fish, chinese fish. But if you limit it to your local concept, you will only make a difference in your local mindset. Your mindset has to shift. Then God can expose you to so much other things and so many other people are waiting on your ministry. Don't deprive them by being your own prison, by your own tradition.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:18:47

Wow, this is leadership beyond the pulpit, beyond your preaching.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:18:56

Not just the local, it's global. Somebody just shifted past the day. Somebody's shifting from the place of complacency, from apathy, to a new place of victory, for they can serve this generation. Come on, man, hallelujah, I can say you're Batman past the day, man. I've enjoyed this podcast, man. This has been such a blessing. As we close our in and final leadership thought, a nugget, because I believe ministers are leaving this podcast with a greater hunger and a thirst to be the kingdom leader that God's called them to be the lead in their area and their influence. I believe God has spoken in them and they're thinking about if people can watch me, they're going to watch. I believe that I think there's something that's, there's a leader rising up in them and so now that they're motivated and they've been stirred and that activated any word that you give them so they can be able to finish this thing for the long haul Because I don't want this to be a brevity, you know a thing where they like yeah, but I, because the victory is in the longevity.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:20:13

Not just the diet but the lifestyle. Any final word, because I believe, I know they're stirred past the meals. I know they're stirred, dr Mills, I know they're stirred, but we want them to have a longevity and not just be a season, but this become the lifestyle, being that leader that God came to be. What final word and thing you do so that that can become their reality?

Dr. David Mills 1:20:36

Yeah, I put for me. I think the idea is realizing that you've been called with the kingdom and God trusts you so much with the kingdom. He gave it to you but you were never meant to keep it, never meant to keep it. If you don't give this kingdom to your city, to your family, to your community, to your country we did God at this service he says the kingdom is in you, but it was never supposed to stay there. The child's becomes. Now is when you're.

Dr. David Mills 1:21:04

What will be your legacy Will be the legacy that when we think of your name and think of your ministry and think of your, your, your, what you did in this planet, what will you leave it? If Jesus doesn't come back, believe me, I want him to come. I want him to come to Mars Cool Now. If you don't come, cool too. But if he comes by the end of the week, I want to know that I gave him my best. I want you to, I want you to, from this point on, to show up at your highest, at your best, regardless the number of people you show up in front of, cause there's an audience in heaven watching that out numbers them. I wanted to be so that you have a ministry like Stephen had Even Jesus kind of stand up at that.

Dr. David Mills 1:21:50

I ain't preaching for the congregation, I'm preaching for the kingdom and I want heaven to take a stand and go. That's my boy, that's my man. He is doing this and I'm going to keep him living, no matter what go on, cause I need him in the earth to do what he's doing, or her in the earth to do what she's doing. She was sent for this, call for this. And in case you doubt it, the Bible says I hid my inheritance in the saints. Oh my God, get the inheritance out of your life and into your world. Spend the rest of your life. The Bible says that God's grace gives me a concealer thing, but it's the glory of kings to reveal it. How about you keep revealing what heaven has given to you?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:22:37

God bless you. Oh my God, what a time we've had. This is five fold food. I pray that, as you have eaten well today, that you will be able to excel in your five fold ministry. Thank you, dr Mills, for being with us. Thank you.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:22:55

Those that have been with us. I want you to never to forget, no matter where you are, what you're experiencing in life. God is testing you for greatness. I believe in you. I believe that you're going to live better, you're going to do better, you're going to be better. You're going to experience and release all the brilliance that God has for you. Until our next time together, we'll see you on five fold food. Thanks again, my good friend.

Dr. David Mills 1:23:17

You've been such a blessing. Thank you,