Excelling in ministry and leadership with Pastor Fred Moore

Prepare to be spiritually nourished as Pastor Fred Moore and I, Dr. Robert F. Dowell, unpack the essential ingredients for a thriving ministry in this enlightening session of the Five-Fold Food podcast. For seasoned ministers and those newly answering the call, this podcast episode serves as a compass for leading with integrity and fulfilling the higher purpose set before us. 

Leadership is more than a title; it's about influence and presence.  In our conversation we discuss the necessity of leadership that resonates beyond the pulpit. Pastor Moore and I tackle the realities of ministry, from the divine timing that leads to church stability to the personal cost that often goes unseen. We candidly address the challenges spiritual leaders face, sharing stories that showcase resilience, hope, and the transformative power of genuine community engagement. These stories are more than anecdotes; they're lessons in patience, faithfulness, and leadership that every minister can apply.

In our session we discuss of wise leaders we and the significant lessons we've learned through our ministry encounters. We discuss conflict resolution, leadership wisdom, and the crucial aspect of self-leadership, offering actionable guidance for ministers to navigate the complexities of their calling. We emphasize the indelible impact of our choices and the importance of leaving a legacy that echoes into eternity. For seasoned ministers and those newly answering the call, this podcast episode serves as a compass for leading with integrity and fulfilling the higher purpose set before us.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:04

You Fold food podcast, hosted by Dr Robert F Dowell, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment they need to succeed. The word of God declares and he gave some Apostles and some prophets and some Evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ. Prepare to receive revelation, wisdom and insight to empower your ministry for victory. Now let's eat.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 0:43

Praise the Lord, god bless each and every one of you. Welcome to the five fold food podcast. I'm your host, dr Robert F Dial, and I'm so delighted that you've chosen to be with us for another episode. I want to ask, wherever that you may be viewing or watching this, that you're please like and subscribe. If you own Apple, spotify, whatever platform you're looking at, be sure that you be sure that you like, subscribe so you can get all the latest Podcast when they come out. Also, will you please be sure that you will leave us a five-star review if this podcast is helping you in any way.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:19

Be sure that you take a moment. You'll look down there on your device. You have a place where you can write a review. Let us know how it's blessing you. Be sure it's a five-star review. They'll be able to push it out so that more people can be blessed by our Podcast. Also, if you're watching on YouTube anywhere, be sure that you also do like and subscribe, comment, share it out, so that others may be blessed as well.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:44

If you look down in the show notes, you'll see how there's some materials that we can bless you and help you in your ministry, some free materials that I believe that it be a blessing to help you eat well so that you can excel in your five-fold Ministry. Also, we will appreciate your support. If you look down also on your device, you'll see a place where you can support us on any level. We will appreciate your support as we continue to help the five-fold minister. Well, I'm excited about Today's podcast. I want to bring in my Covenant brother that's with us today, pastor Fred Moore from Austin, texas. That's welcome to the podcast, man of God.

Pastor Fred Moore 2:28

Oh, bless you, man of God. Thank you, dr Dahl, for having me as an honor and a privilege to be with you, my friend.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 2:34

I'm man brother, my covenant brother. I'm so delighted our schedules work that you Could be with us as well. We're excited, pastor, about our conversation. I often like to say when I start these podcasts that there's gonna be some revelation in the Conversation and I can already tell what. This doctor, we got behind us man, he got a library behind us, so we know Books. I'm looking at faster, more. No, some real books. They know. They know Facebook show and the thing about it. Man, either you bought those books use, you got a man, a garage sale or the goodwill a man, a guy, you put some work in him.

Pastor Fred Moore 3:21

Well, I got one. I have one up. Let me show you one specifically, since you started that. We just gonna start off. This was given to me, right? This is a legacy, one of our legacy Bibles my uncle Lee. He passed it in Birmingham, alabama, for 43 years. I'm a second generation preacher and uncle Lee gave me this Bible, so I hold on to this Bible to pass it to the next generation. So this is a spiritual baton for our heritage. Uncle Lee passed it in Birmingham, alabama, 43 years. This is one of his old by what he gave me when I first went into ministry.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 4:01

Wow, man, and that's your man. What a real preacher, excited about, about, about the word of God, man. I was gonna ask you, man, was that milk is a deck? Or somebody, ezekiel, somebody in your family, man?

Pastor Fred Moore 4:17

Oh yeah, that's a blessing.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 4:19

That's a blessing, oh yeah, and that that's a blessing. That's what we stand on, the foundation of the word of God, and we can tell your books are being used. Man and God said that that's a good site. They're not just new books, man, I Mean you put some, you in it. So I'm so glad that pastor more is with us today.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 4:37

Pastor more I can say about this man of God. He he's not new to this, he is true to this. Man of God has been in ministry I for over 34 years. I recently celebrated 28 years of pastoral ministry in Austin, texas, the Kingdom of God Christian Center. You know where he does ministry with his lovely wife Michelle. They've been in ministry now they married for 40 years and so, hallelujah, so we thank God for him. He's a veteran, a family man, man of God, my covenant brother, and I'm so glad that he's here with us.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 5:18

Past as we get ready to get into this conversation today. I don't know if anything else you'd like the people to know about you that maybe you could share. But also, maybe you could share with us, maybe your website or something that those that might wanna reach out to you after this conversation and contact with you know where your church is located. Also, if you've got anything going on, if you've got any events in the ministry, kinda let us know, so that way those in the area listening or coming through might wanna connect with you.

Pastor Fred Moore 5:46

Yes, sir, yes, sir, Well again, dr Dahl, thank you, my friend and brother, for having me on your podcast. I really love the whole name of it Five-Full Fool, eat Well and Exhale. Man, I substance all the way in that. You know what I mean. But let me start with some protocol things. Of course I wanna give shout out to our beloved overseer, pastor Valerie Hocum, all the brothers of our organization, cci, and especially you, man of God, because why you may be saying other things about us preachers, listen, listen. You hold your own preacher. You go hard in that spiritual pain. You go hard in that spiritual pain, man, and that's not false flattery. You've always been a man of God, of substance. Ain't nothing superficial about you, and that's why I remember I'm so glad that you have joined our prayer group on Saturday night you know what I'm saying, what you bring to the table Time. You came to the table, man, and I was sharing with you a ministry situation that had really bothered me the way you addressed it. I had to share it with my wife and then I gave you credit the first time from the pool pit when you said something. But from now on I'm just gonna say like I've been saying man, you know what I mean, but we would be honored if anybody reached out to it Just to give us a shout. Man, you know. Our email address is kgccatgmailcom. The website is kgccatxorg. Kgccatxorg.

Pastor Fred Moore 7:14

Again, wanna give a shout out to my precious wife. I'm a girl dad and a girl granddad and I didn't come up with this. I give credit to people who said it the first time. The late great Kobe Bryant said, who has also girls. He says this. He said it takes a man to make a boy, but it takes a king to make a princess. So I'm a girl dad and a girl granddad. You know what I mean. I got girls, two girls, and I got two granddaughters Jennifer and Fredrica and Alina and Amani. You know what I mean. So that's my story. And of course, I got my really the glue to our family man in many streets, the one and only Miss Michelle Moore man, that's my wife. So we just love it. And of course, my kingdom family. Love, peace and blessings. Grace. Grace to them. Love my kingdom family man.

Leadership and Success for Ministers

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 8:06

Amen, and can you tell us where you located? Kingdom of God, Christian church. Where are you located in the great state of Texas?

Pastor Fred Moore 8:14

Yes, sir, everything's big in Texas, so they say but anyway, I mean, it's outside of Austin, we're a server of Austin, it's called Round Rock, texas. We're just north of Austin, so we're not actually in the Austin city limits. The thing about that, dr Dawes, we passed it in Austin, man. We got it for about 24, 25 years and was located in Austin, right, okay. And when the door opened for us to be able to buy our own building, we didn't give Round Rock a thought, but God gave. But God led us to Round Rock, man and the building that he blessed us with. Man, the owner took a half a million right off on it and sold it to us. Yes, sir, peace God. Yes, sir, yes, sir, man. So we're in the beautiful city of Round Rock, texas, and we're loving every minute of it. Downtown Round Rock, 507 West here's the address.

Pastor Fred Moore 9:13

One of my dear friends, dr Friarson, ron Friarson. He visits the building and when he's seeing what was located he's prophetic. So he looked at the numbers and he says 507. And he began to deal with the greats and then he dealt with the 50. Then he dealt with the seven and then right behind us we were right on the interstate and he said and you have I-35 behind us. So he just prophesied what all of that meant for that location. That we had no idea, man of God, that we would be downtown Round Rock, texas, because we always thought we was gonna be in the city of Boston. And that's our story there, man, Wow.

Pastor Fred Moore 9:49

And we released for a preacher. Let me just throw this in parenthetically For every preacher that might be watching and leasing, because, as we talked before, there ain't no playing games with each other. Preachers need to hear some basics. I leased here's the testimony. I leased for 24 or 23 years of the ministry. I was in a strip center and yeah, we were. You know how the devil make sure you get things back to you. And one person said they still in that strip center, still in that strip center, and that was the 411 on the street regarding the kingdom, you know what I'm saying. And we just stayed faithful, cause I'm telling some men of God right now don't despise where God has you at Just because you may not own excuse me, you may not own your own building. See, some people think, because they don't own their own building, that they think blessed up. Nothing can be further from the truth. I always like to say Dr Dahl, I'm gonna get to you in the tree because I didn't take off already.

Pastor Fred Moore 10:57

But don't be bothered. Here's my one thought, beginning with the preachers Don't be bothered just because you leasing on renting man. Moses, listen, you want to know the truth. Moses passed it a temporary church for 40 years. It's happened after what happened after they, after he passed it a transit church, they setting up, pulling down, setting up, pulling down, setting up, pulling down, and then later they had the tabernacle.

Pastor Fred Moore 11:25

So, I'm saying that to some preacher man don't let the devil and don't let anybody make you think less than because you might be in a strip sun and you might be renting or you might be in a hotel. Despise not the little small beginners, cause my daughters. I say this. My daughter said to me some time ago. They said, daddy, when is it gonna happen for you? When are you gonna get your own building? You go to all these building dedications. When is it gonna happen for you? And I ain't gonna lie to you. I went to God in prayer and I said to him I've been listening to my children. My babies are wondering when you're gonna do it for us. And when he did it for us, he touched an owner that wrote off, as a tax example, nearly a half a million dollars. So we got.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 12:10

He does it big man, oh man, what a testimony. Thank you for sharing that. Some ministers, some pastors really need to hear that. Yes, sir, and when God did it, when God do it, when it's in his will, he helped pay the bill, he paid it to you. Yes, sir, yes, sir so you could have did it your way, had to pay your own way and look at that right off. Yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 12:32

So God has a way of redeeming the time. Thank you for sharing that. I think that says the way, man of God with God, I believe, putting in our heart for our discussion so that ministers can eat well, and we pray that you all will pull up a chair to the table so that we can eat well, some five-fold food. This man of God is already cooking. You can smell it in the air, man, we can smell it. He's already cooking. Because I think what that speaks of, of you being able to go through that, that now, at that time, it speaks to your leadership that you didn't get the people in a bad place, a sinking ship in a bad place, because you had proper leadership. You waited the time, even though it was the desires your heart. You may hear somethings are here and there.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 13:23

But, to me what I see in that pastor more. You didn't create an ishmael.

Pastor Fred Moore 13:28

Yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 13:29

That's why, right now, kingdom of God Christian church is able to exhale yes sir. You didn't, with bad leadership, create an ishmael? Yes, sir, and I believe that many pastors, evangelists, the tenoric ministry, five fold ministers in general, in their lives, they are not able to exhale, yes, sir, because they create ishmaels, because they don't know how to lead.

Pastor Fred Moore 13:56

well, yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 13:56

Not that they don't know how to preach well.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 13:58

Yes, sir, not that they don't know how to study well. They exegete the text well, they homiletical and have a proper hermeneutic. They make sure they have a good systematic theology and understand the analogy of the faith and they know the law first reference and they know all of that and they know how to run the text and they know how to lay it out. The reason they're not able to exhale is because they can't lead well. Yes, sir, that's what I wanna discuss in this podcast. You wanna talk about that ministers that exhale know how to lead well. We're talking about ministers that's the apostle, the prophet, the pastor that if you're gonna exhale in your life and your ministry you're gonna have to lead well, and I think that speaks really no false flattery. Pastor, more of your leadership. Yes sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 14:48

Because many people what happens there behind the eight ball when God gets ready to do a thing? Yeah, in his timing. Yeah, now you got to play clean up because some stuff you messed up. Come here, abraham.

Pastor Fred Moore 15:01

Yes sir, yes sir. Because you put your hands on it.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 15:05

Yes, sir, and man that speaks to you, that you weren't already in a situation. You didn't. You waited the time and have gotten. So I think that was by the unction of the Holy Spirit for you to share that for somebody, so that they won't get ahead of God.

Pastor Fred Moore 15:18

And if I may say, and if I say Dr Dow in a, and if I say this because we can preach this all day right here, because a lot of times preachers will go, we feel forced. You remember when, when, when, when a Samuel came to Saul and asked him why did he do what he did and not wait on Saul and get there before he offered up the sacrifice? Samuel? Saul replied to Samuel. He said I saw the people leaving me and I forced myself. That's what Saul said. When Saul offered up a sacrifice and then Prophet Samuel told him wait till I come, and then we're going to offer up the sacrifice. And then Saul took it upon himself to offer up the sacrifice. And Saul said hey, man, what's this about? What are you, what are you doing? And he said I saw the people leaving me. And King James says I forced myself.

Pastor Fred Moore 16:11

Now see, a lot of times we will allow the people and trying to keep up with the Joneses that are already in bankruptcy, to get us into buildings, man of God, that we cannot afford the key, because you might get in there but you may not be able to keep that building. You know what I'm saying to you and, yeah, you happy and happy and happy. But if you up there Sunday after Sunday pleading for more money, back to your point, man of God, you may have produced an issue now because again well, again I got a friend of mine who says this God always pays for everything he orders. So if you ordered that, you're going to pay for it. If God ordered it, he'll pay for it. This is saying you go your own way, you pay your own fare, man.

Leadership Beyond the Pulpit

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 17:04

I know man, that's so good and getting ahead of God. Let me, let's frame it this way, let's put some foundation in this. Why do you believe it's crucial for ministers to excel outside of the pulpit? Because when I was framing this, I know what ministers we need to be homiletical, we need to understand our hermeneutic, we need to know how to exegete, all those things which are the place for that, and so we have a place for that. But I think what many have done, they've majored in some of that and they haven't really understood the leadership part. And so what I want you to kind of frame it that why is it important that we can excel outside of what we do as preachers? And maybe you can kind of share some leadership responsibilities that leaders need to be competent in.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 17:59

That's outside of the pulpit. And let me just say this one thing you mentioned it. We do, thank God and honor I'll oversee a pastor of Valerie and the late apostle Holcombe and all that they've done in terms of leadership and doing. Now we can see the organization was being a part of the same covenant organization, the reason that it has and is now excelling, that it was more than what our bishop, more than what our overseer do now in the pulpit and see and I want to hear your thoughts on it, but I was just thinking about this what happens is we see what leaders and preachers do in the pulpit, but what happens is what normally causes their organization to excel is the leadership. That doesn't happen in the pulpit and that's the part we're not a part of. You had the opportunity to walk, so can you kind of help ministers I think many of them. They haven't got this base and they don't understand the value of that. So what would you say to that? Why is this crucial?

Pastor Fred Moore 19:07

Well, when you say that, because what we have to understand as ministers, especially for a time, there's much more to ministry than just preaching. It's not just the preaching. You know what I'm saying?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 19:20

That's all we see you do. I thought that's all you do. Man the God.

Pastor Fred Moore 19:23

No, my brother, no, my brother, you know. Just see, bishop said it this way it's not just what you do behind the pulpit, it's what you do beyond the pulpit. You know what I'm saying to you. It's not just what you do behind the pulpit, it's what you do beyond the pulpit. And one writer said it this way you got to have a good reputation within and without, within and without. I'll just give you a case of point. And again, if I sound vain because I'm referring to myself, forgive me but I can only use my example, right? I recently got bitten by this bug that's biting people called Pickleball, okay, pickleball, right. So about two weeks ago make a long story short I was playing Pickleball and I strayed my back. So I just been kind of resting my background because I strayed my back.

Pastor Fred Moore 20:17

Now, at Pickleball, you have some of everybody. I'm going to them for you. You have some of everybody, all colors, all beliefs and all convictions, right? So someone, one of the people at the Pickleball court, her name is Alice. I really don't know her. I'm trying to recall who she was passed away. So, a Pickleball place, I call her name, but this is not her name. Rachel reached out to me, okay and said Fred Alice passed away. Rachel is not this other person's name, but Rachel reached out to me and said Fred Alice passed and she didn't have a good relationship with her son and we're not even sure they're going to be a funeral. We was wondering if you would come to the YMCA and we're going to gather and would you say a prayer.

Pastor Fred Moore 21:20

Now let me tell you who Rachel is. Rachel is a woman that believes in the alternate lifestyle. My point is this man and God, it's much more than beyond the pulpit. I wonder if they sin enough of God in me. I don't preach to them. All I do is this Dr Dahl, I'm just out there hitting the ball, but they're getting ready to have a moment to remember someone that exercised among them and the lady who I don't agree with that lifestyle reached out to me to come and pray.

Pastor Fred Moore 22:02

That's beyond the pulpit. If your relationship doesn't carry you beyond the pulpit, it's what Jesus says If men cannot see your life and glorify your father, you may not be a good leader, because you must have a good reputation within and without man and God. You know what I mean. I'll never forget. I didn't understand this one time when a preacher was rebuking another preacher because he was late to the meeting and the preacher was upset. And the preacher looked at him and he said and I bet you got bad credit.

Pastor Fred Moore 22:39

So anyway, man and God, it's not just what you do behind the pulpit, because you only live there only a certain amount of time. The majority of life is lived out in community and it's what they see to me out in community that they've determined what type of leader that you are. And this lady has never called me pastor Fred. Just this morning she texts me and said pastor Fred, would you come? He's never called me pastor Fred. She said pastor Fred, would you come? And I'm thinking this is a lady who believes in me. You know a different lifestyle than I believe in, but yet she's wanting me to come and pray. I pray that because of some type of leadership.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 23:25

Yeah.

Pastor Fred Moore 23:26

And influence that I'm displaying while out there. You know what I'm saying to you? Because the coming action, pray, means I gotta gather all the pickleball players and say a prayer. Is that not displayed in the leadership? Wow, that's what she's asking me to come, do you know? Wow, again, preachers, we need to know is not just behind the pulpit, it's beyond the pulpit where our true leadership skills is shown.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 23:54

Share with us what your experience. You've been senior pastor over 28 years. You've been under authority. Where you've been, you know senior elder in a mega church.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 24:04

You know, all those different things. What are some leadership responsibilities that leaders may need to be skilled as? And I think it's so important, pastor Morrow, I think we have to have these conversations because many ministers never think about the leadership aspect of their ministry. You know, they don't come into that because they don't think about it and many only begin to become cognizant of it if they move into the pastorate. Now they're cognizant, but now you haven't prepared for it, you haven't thought about these things, and now it's on them. Now they're behind the eight ball. Others may not become senior pastor, but we know, as senior pastors, when they don't have a leadership mentality, they're not able to be the help that Erin's in the herd within the house because they don't have a leadership mantle on them, and that's why I believe we have to know leadership. So maybe there's some responsibilities or some skills that they need to be confident in that they can begin to think about. That may help them begin to go down that leadership path. What would you say?

Pastor Fred Moore 25:14

Now we're referring to Pastor Morrow. You asked me that. Are we referring to the senior leader or the leaders around the senior leaders?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 25:21

The leaders around you can hit both leaders around it, because we got leaders around it that need to have it, and maybe the senior leaders as well. Just how have a God put it? Hit both of them if you can.

Pastor Fred Moore 25:32

Right, I think the leaders, the stuff with the leaders around us, because, as you know, today's leaders was yesterday's followers and if you're not a good follower, you're not gonna be a good leader. You know what I'm saying If you're not a good follower, you're not gonna be a good leader. The main thing I say about the leaders that's around us, right, because I had to go back to Bishop Hokemary after I left him and started pastoring and I had to apologize. Dr Dow, I went back to him and apologized to him. And why did I apologize? Because I said you know, now that I'm in this thing, pastoring, I apologize Because I know there was times I looked at the way you was pastoring and I wonder what is he doing? You know what I'm saying, but now that I'm a pastor, I understand the responsibilities somewhat that you have.

Pastor Fred Moore 26:27

I'll come back to what the leaders around us should be doing, because I remember when I first started pastoring, you know I went back then and I basically was whining to Bishop Hokemary. I think I was going through it in ministry. You know I was telling him about this, telling him about that, telling him about the other thing, and you know what he did. I'll never forget it. I'm there, I ain't crying, but I'm close to it and I'm like it's just going on in the church, the back going on in the church, you know, and I'm looking for some mercy, some sympathy. You know what Bishop did? He sit there, he smiled and he slapped me, dr Dow, on my leg. I thought I told him everything I'm going through. He slapped me on my leg and he said you, pastor in now, doc. That's all he said I was like what the heck?

Importance of Effective Leadership

Pastor Fred Moore 27:14

You know what I mean, because I guess he was telling me you thought it was going to be all hunk of glory, sun shining every day. You know what I'm saying to you. So I said that the same man. First of all, if you're going to be a good leader, you got to start with being a good follower right and being a good follower when you're under leadership and I deal with the leaders particularly when you're under leadership you got to trust to Christ, that's, in your leader and some of those that work alongside us, even when you don't understand. Even when you don't understand, because a lot of times we'll make decisions and project vision and then sometime the people closest to us will be the ones that rise up and say they don't see it or they don't agree with it. To me, if you're going to be a good leader, you got to be pliable. You got to know how to come under leadership. See the revelation of the centurion. People can teach whole things about the centurion, but the revelation of the centurion was he understood how to operate an authority and he knew when he need to come under authority. You know what I'm saying to you. You know what I mean. So, if you're going to be a leader, even when you're following the long side, dr Dahl, you may not ever understand everything in the vision that he's projecting, but again, if you are a good leader, you're going to maintain the spirit of cooperation. I may not understand it all, man and God but I'm still going to, as you referred earlier, I'm still going to hold up your hands. You know what I'm saying to you. I'm still going to hold up your hands because I know that's where God has placed me and I always pray that when you have those leaders around your elder I mean, dr Dahl is this Like Elijah said Lord, open their eyes that they may see.

Pastor Fred Moore 29:10

We had in our Bible study last night. We had a deacon to pray and just deacon that prayed. He prayed about everything. First of all, he started off repenting for his lack of leadership Number one, you know what I mean. Now. He got up there and I'm telling you this guy don't play with God. He got up there but he started repenting for his lack of leadership and he covered from A to Z, from giving you know what I'm saying to you To not being in place when you're supposed to be. Once that man prayed. We can close the prayer meeting because here was a leader who recognized it's not my pastor, lord, I got to begin with me when he went there in prayer last night and this is corporate prayer meeting, god. He was a leader that's been with me for years. Has been with me for years Because one of the things I was going to say you see too many leaders that get around us and become guilty of the sin of familiarity.

Pastor Fred Moore 30:09

You get used to us, right, and then there where Moab is, you begin to settle. He said Moab have been at ease from his youth and has settled. And it's the process of making wine better when it goes from vessel to vessel. And a lot of the leaders around us, once they settle just like whether they go through your school, your mentorship, whatever they should never get to the point to where they're so comfortable with you, to they're familiar with you and they just settle and don't rule anymore. They just it's maintenance ministry. Now You're not thriving, you just practice in maintenance ministry. You do just enough to. So I'm still here, you know what I'm saying to you, but you're not developing, you're not applying yourself, you're not doing anything because you've become comfortable.

Pastor Fred Moore 31:02

But leaders, real leaders, not only was once good followers, but real leaders, and you know this, doc, because you're an educated man. Real leaders are always learning, always learning, always learning. They never, they never settle, and I told you this before in another conversation that we had. It's amazing how we let NBA players, football players and others work hard at their craft more than we do at our calling. You know what I'm saying these guys work hard at. You'll hear them. If you interview most of them, from LeBron on down, you're gonna hear them say and they'll say well, how are you? And the interviewers ask you well, how did you, how are you getting the results that you're getting? And they'll say nobody didn't see the work that I put in. I put the work in and as leaders, we gotta put the work in man If we're gonna be better and better and go from glory to glory, from faith to faith. I mean that's good. If we stop learning, we cease to be, you know, effective and you know what I mean.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 32:05

I think that's part of the learning that elders and evangelists those that need to learn to learn about their leadership as well.

Pastor Fred Moore 32:15

You're right.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 32:16

So while they're serving on the leaders, then they can still excel, because they're not being the proper help, they're not being the errands and the herds that they need to be, because they stop learning. And one thing when you learn leadership, then you can be able to be a good follower as well. But I think about, like you said, sometimes you might not understand. You know, one day Jesus gave a disciples a hard saying and it says from that time many didn't walk with him. He said except you eat in my flesh, drink in my blood, man, and you hear it. It sound like cannibalism, man, what are you preaching? And you know, like you know, eating my flesh. But what happened? Is they left? And I often thought what if they would have just hung around to get an understanding, to get, and all that getting? Maybe at the moment you don't have understanding, but get some clarity, get some understanding. But they didn't stand so they could understand.

Pastor Fred Moore 33:13

Yeah, that's, that's good.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 33:14

Sometimes we don't stand with our leader, we never get the understanding, and so that's why we gotta go through that shaking. So that's good. Is there a story or something, pastor Moore, that maybe hit you and maybe in your journey that kinda maybe highlight the importance of effective leadership? I know you said your own, anything else outside of the pulpit, I know your personal story with that, but anything else that come to your mind why it's important to be able to lead, you know outside of our preaching.

Pastor Fred Moore 33:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, something comes to mind, but I want to. It's not quite the answer to your question, but I want to just share this because I want to try to help somebody else. Is that okay? Yes, yes.

Pastor Fred Moore 33:54

Because see, when we talk about serving alongside leadership and growing alongside leadership, here's the thing, man and God, you're really going to define. The nature of our relationship with our leaders is when they watch this now, when they have to circumcise us as a spiritual father, correcting us, puking us. Let me, let me tell you a story. What would I mean by that? So we're in a meeting, one time with Bishop. I can only use myself and I'm a talker, if you know. As you said, you could say already I'm a talker, right. And so Bishop was explaining something to the staff and to the rest of us, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I had the unmitigated God to speak up in that meeting, saying the wrong thing. I never forget this man and God. When I did that because here's what he, he was a defining moment in our relationship it corrected me right there, in front of every. I never forget what he said to me. He said see that more you always say the wrong thing, and I think he said at the wrong time. He said something to that fact, but this is I do remember. He said see, much learning has made you mad in front of everybody, in front of everybody. Now, here's the point I'm making a spiritual father doesn't castrate his son, but he does circumcise it. And it was in that moment no, no, no. See, if, see, if you're not a spiritual father, you'll butcher, you'll, you'll see. But if you let your spiritual father circumcise you because of a covenant relationship, you'll be more productive in the end. When he said that to me, he rebuked me in front of everybody. I'm talking about everybody. That was the staff, right. Yeah, I could have got offended. He ain't talking to me like that. But I know he's my father, I know he loved me and when he cut me right, then I'm still with him the day, baby, I'm still with him the day because a real father and a leader will allow their spiritual father to circumcise them, because a real father what I said circumcises us. They don't castrate us, castrate us, they're going to help us, not to reproduce, but a spiritual father circumcises us because we'll encumbe it and for, you know, for the reproduction. You know what I'm saying.

Pastor Fred Moore 36:36

So you know again, I'm not. I just kind of get disturbed when we have leaders and you love me as long as the answers are yes. But, as Passabelle have taught us, no is an unknowing word. And when I say no, that's when I want to see how you're going to respond to the leadership that. Are you going to tuck tail and run?

Pastor Fred Moore 37:04

Because you know, a lot of times in the cell path they come to us and they prefaced it with this the Lord showed me, or the Lord said to me, because what they're saying is I've heard from the highest authority, so what I'm about to tell you you can't trump. You know what I'm saying to you. That's why they put the Lord saying it to me, the Lord showed me. And I always get kind of bothered expressing. When the Lord then said unto somebody and showed them something about the church and administering the direction of it, I say you know I'd be confused. I say, well, I thought I was, I thought I was the one to skip them at the helm. I didn't know that the God was talking to the. You know what I'm saying, you know what I mean. And then when you lovingly not not, not not being harsh correct them, correct them, because if I can't correct you, you define the relationship, you do find the relationship.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 38:01

Wow, man, that's a revelation man. I know these ministers five-fold ministers come baby to chew on this and chew on this man's circumcision versus castration man. That is a revelation of a difference that good leaders and what I'm picking up more from what you're putting down is is hitting me in this, when you say, in order to be a good leader, you got to be a good follower. Because what just hit me when you said that is this as I'm following and I've been cut and I've been circumcised, then I can properly circumcise those that I lead, because there'll come a time when I had to lead and I can't lead from a place of that. I can't correct that. I'm a laser fare leader, but the same time I don't want to be an abusive leader.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 38:51

I want to be a butcher, but I still have to. I have to lead and sometimes correct. Help, in other words, help the people that serve under me, remove, cut some flesh off of them.

Pastor Fred Moore 39:03

That's going to hurt you in the long run. You got to do it. You got to do it.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 39:09

I mean but if you haven't been cut, you don't know how to cut. So you never been cut. So now you haven't been cut. Now see what happens is more, if you've never been cut, then you won't have a grace. If you've been circumcised, you know like man it hurt, it stung. So now when you cut, you're going to cut with the. If you was cut gracefully. But if you will butcher and you learn from it, you realize I'm not going to castrate now, I'm going to cut. So either way, when you'll be a good follower, you're going to learn how to cut the proper way.

Pastor Fred Moore 39:43

Absolutely, absolutely. And God takes the circumcision. So much you know this because you're a scholar of the word God takes the circumcision of us circumcised and our son's so important that when Moses didn't do it, it almost cost Moses his life and his destiny. Remember when they was coming out of Egypt and he didn't do it and his wife had to do it for him Only because Moses was dragging his feet on circumcised and his son. That's a natural, but that's the, that's the spirit.

Pastor Fred Moore 40:15

You know what I mean and what I'm basically trying to say is if we, as your leader, cannot lovingly speak the truth and love and correct you, you define the relationship. Jesus said when he's watching the disciples speak. Now, he wasn't circumcised, but he was watching the disciples speak, and when Peter refused to let him wash his feet, clean him up or correct him how do you want to put it? Because he was washing his feet, because I walked from time to time need to be cleaned and so he was washing his feet. And that's when he told Peter and I love to say, but when people say, no, you're not going to wash my feet, and Jesus says if I don't wash your feet, you have no part with me.

Pastor Fred Moore 40:58

You define the relationship by if you allow me to clean your walk up when it needs to be cleaned- up.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 41:04

That's good stuff. That's good. What are some misconceptions you think ministers have regarding, you know, the subject of leadership, because we think about, because you know we preachers we don't usually have leadership talk and I'm again more the reason that they're not able to excel in the pastorate, in the itinerant, even within the organizations. You know it's like why am I not moving and matriculating, even in my organization of a part of local church or whatever? Because you haven't been faithful in another man's work? God can't give you your own. Then two leaders that have people that are under them, they know those that have bought in and know how to follow.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 41:47

Right and then senior leaders? If they don't have the right kind of leadership? All they're focusing is on the preaching aspect and they don't have the leading. So what's the misconceptions? You would say?

Prestige and Pitfalls in Ministry

Pastor Fred Moore 41:57

Well, you just kind of, you just kind of touched on it, man. They kind of think that in ministry that first of all is all sunshine and no rain. You know what I mean. And see, see, this is old school. You don't see this much, no more. But they've seen the preacher.

Pastor Fred Moore 42:11

I remember one time, man, the God. I was at a zoo and this preacher came walking in, Somebody was carrying his briefcase and he had like seven people following him. Right, he had, like I'm not lying, he was at a zoo, he was in front and they was in a line behind it. Right, and I was like, whoa, he must be very important, Right, but I like the way the honorable TD J said it. He said, with all that security, you got around you. Who's trying to kill you? You got most security in the president. You know. You know what I'm saying. Now don't get me wrong. I believe in the home of era concept and that type of thing.

Pastor Fred Moore 42:54

But preachers, younger preachers, I see that and say, man, I want that, I want that. You know what I mean. People at my every back and call Come on, man, this is, this is we. We're not in the world man, a God. We are brothers and sisters one of another. We're not slaves to each other. So I think they see the glamour, to answer your question. They see what they perceive, what they perceive as the glamour of the ministry. And I believe in the nice things. I believe that the Lord wants us to live a good life, enjoy good, eat good, live good the whole night, but it's not none of that prestigious stuff that they should be drawn to. You know what I mean. It's not status in this type of thing. You know and I think younger preachers get caught up in that. You know what I mean. Like I got people that serve me and people that set at my every back and call no, it's not, it's not, it's not about. I think that's a serious misconception.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 43:51

Oh yeah, they're looking for something I bring in some juice man. They can't wait for somebody to bring them some juice man.

Pastor Fred Moore 43:57

Oh man, let me tell you another story, if I can. One of my dear friends no name to you, so no paper characters attack One of my dear friends worked at Azusa okay, azusa Conference back in the day under the lady who just passed, bishop Carlton Pearson, and they wasn't at a distance, they worked, they was in the mix, got it, they was in the mix.

Pastor Fred Moore 44:29

So my friend and I can introduce you to this person when you come to CCI, when you come to me who worked there Not for I'm talking about in the mix, so, man, I'm younger than them I said, oh my God. I said you work it, you work it so. And so you, at the Azusa Conference, I said I know you shaking this person's hand and that person's hand Because, see, I'm excited about the big name preachers. You know what I mean. I'm like the, the, what they call them, girls that follow guys. Oh, shut up and got what they call them.

Speaker 1 45:05

Yeah, yeah, you know there's a group of girls when they follow.

Pastor Fred Moore 45:08

Groupies yeah, you're like a groupie, right, and the whole time I'm talking to this person about this about them being exposed to this, being close to this person. They just sitting there, Dr Dowell, like this, just looking at me, and I'm like something's wrong here.

Pastor Fred Moore 45:26

I'm like you, you, you don't seem excited. This person said brother Mo, you know what I've learned about God's people? I'll tell you. She's a female. She said I've learned that some of God's people are wicked as H E double hockey stick. She said they'd be requiring crazy stuff certain type of chicken wings, certain type of water in the room, a certain type of honorarium, or they not give, not get, not the vehicle, I'm like, she said. I said are you serious? And she said this to me I cannot wait to leave that job. If I gave you her number, she'll tell you, I believe. So my point is to your point man of God, men of God and women of God, they'll see what they think as this prestigious status having people. It's not about that, man of God.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 46:35

And that's why I love these conversations, man of God, because what helps me that you got to be at a table like this? Yeah, that's why I'm glad they're able to pull up a chair, because you're not going to always get this kind of stories in the pulpit Right. What happens is that's how many get in a pit. They become high maintenance. There you go. That might be some maintenance. Oh yeah, you don't want to be high maintenance.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 47:03

Yeah, and that's how maintenance, yeah, this kind of water, this kind of this, this kind of that and what I feel, and maybe we're going to move on more. But I was thinking how can we help people avoid some of these pitfalls? And one thing I thought with leadership and just ministry role mentality, I just think of conversations like this that I know I want to do a podcast. I was talking with someone to hit me that I need to do a podcast about the pain of ministry. I think the one of our covenant brothers that we uh uh, bishop Charles, charles uh, in Arizona.

Pastor Fred Moore 47:49

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 47:52

And so we, we were doing, we did Johnson yeah.

Pastor Fred Moore 47:56

Yeah.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 47:56

And we we did in the hit me that many don't know the sufferings of ministry because you said it it's not all sunshine, but all they see more see, all they see is the sunshine. Yeah, all they see. Man, when I met I saw your armor shining. Man, last time I told you, man, the man of God, the word you preach, man with Moses in the river, man going down and God already had stuff. Man, your armor was shining. They see armor shining in the pulpit, people bringing you juice, man and got this for you pastor. They think that that's all ministry is about. So I think sometimes they can when they get a part of these conversations and we hear there's other aspects. That's why I said I want to do one about just to suffer. I ain't talking about sickness and disease, but the pain, how ministry will bring pain. They don't hear that.

Pastor Fred Moore 48:48

What would?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 48:49

you say to, to men and depression.

Pastor Fred Moore 48:50

I mean depression, depression, man of God. How does Elijah go from calling fire down from heaven one minute, slain in false prophets one minute, and the next chapter? He's suicidal. The next chapter, he's suicidal man. You know what I mean. He's up here. He ain't called. Find out the next chapter. The dude is suicidal and a cave.

Pastor Fred Moore 49:15

See, paul told Timothy. Why would Paul tell Timothy and do a hardness as a good soldier? Cause it's going to be some hard times. Timothy, you got to be able to endure a hardness as a good soldier. And Paul said one of the hard times was he says that my when I first got here, nobody stood with me, everybody for certain, everybody for certain and the and the and the silver lining for Paul was but the Lord stood with me and strengthened me and delivered me out of the mouth of the line. But it ain't all peaches and cream, it ain't all sunshine every day. You're going to cry a lot. You're going to be frustrated a lot. You're going to be mad a lot. You're going to be misunderstood a lot. People going to come and go a lot. You know what I mean. Now, that's too real for people. I'm sorry. You know what I mean, that's just. That's just the way it is, man, we want them to eat well.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 50:12

See, because they can excel if you don't eat well. And that's why I said conversation, Anything else. What would anything else you'll say to the minister to help them avoid some of them traps? Just to get in conversation like that? What would you say?

Pastor Fred Moore 50:26

Maybe help Don't have the wrong mindset about ministry man. God, don't have the wrong mindset about ministry man. You know what I mean. I mean, don't don't get me wrong I love what I do. I love what I do. Wouldn't want to do anything else, Because here's the thing. Here's the thing, dr Dow. Here's the thing, dr Dow. Look at it this way, man of God, thank God for a good coach, thank God for good teachers and thank God for other good people that we have in our lives that might speak into our lives, but what they do for us, dr Dow, is only temple and for this life.

Pastor Fred Moore 51:00

What we do for people to preach is why is this man God? It affects eternity, not just the here and now, but eternity. What does God think about us as shepherds? Now, the Bible says concerning Egypt and Pharaoh the Egyptians despise shepherds. But don't forget a couple of things when Jesus came, the first people that God announced them to were shepherds, and God only had one son, and God made that son a preacher. So we're doing, we're doing, we're doing, we're doing. What's wrong with?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 51:37

you that man, that's good man.

Pastor Fred Moore 51:42

He only had one son and he made him a preacher and when he came to the announcement of his son, he didn't show him to governors and prestigious people back in the day, but shepherds abiding in the field. So, man, we got the best gig going, we got the best calling going. But don't be deceived about it, because with this, come on, when you give me a start, I can talk. So I started the church yet, but I'm in Kaleem and a dealership having my car retired, I mean repaired and so I tell this guy he said, hey, yeah, man. So I was like, who are you? I said, yeah, my name is Pratt. I'm excited because I'm getting ready to start a church in Austin, texas.

Pastor Fred Moore 52:23

Well, he was bi-vocational, he was a pastor and he worked at the car dealership and I'll never forget it. He said get ready for a lot of headaches. Now look here, dr Dowd, like a lot of preachers, he said that immediately in my super spiritual mind, that might be your story, but that won't be mine. That man was right on. He said get ready for a lot of headaches. That's what he said. So to the preachers don't go into the ministry uninformed or unrealistic. Don't get me wrong. There's nothing I'd rather do than to be a servant of God, use of God to preach the gospel of God that bring changes to lives.

Pastor Fred Moore 53:10

But, I also settled that, the reality of it, because here's the reality in a way, on your marriage in an effect, in an effect, your kids. Now I probably I'm hesitant to say this part, but I probably need to say it because it'll help pass those kids. I got two beautiful daughters whom I love like nobody's business. But the last man that those sisters say they ever would consider marrying was a preacher. They say I never marry a preacher, daddy. And why is that? Girls? Because I see what you and mama go through and how y'all get treated. Y'all do all this for people and we see firsthand what y'all go through and how people treat y'all. I never marry a preacher. You know what I'm saying.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 54:03

My couple of things hit me. You're such a blessing Just that last part, the essence of your leadership, and there's no false flattery To hear you share what your daughters would share. That's why people need to be at the table, Because you don't hear this in the pulpit, Because when you're in the pulpit, your message is about him. You're directing the people about him, you're not talking about you. So what they see is sunshine, because you're letting the sunshine.

Pastor Fred Moore 54:32

Absolutely.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 54:33

And that's a part of why your leadership. If a person were not at the table with you, they wouldn't know all that you go through. And that speaks of your leadership, that you're able to endure hardness, go through these things, but then bring the people of God a quality word, not a beat up word. You don't preach out of a place of bitterness and brokenness and your frustration, but you're preaching out a place of revelation. See, that's because of the leader in you able to be able to go through that and still be able to command the ship that you want to. So that speaks of why we need these, because many leaders, ministers, don't know that we go through what we go through because of our ability to lead outside the pulpit. Count that.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 55:19

The other thing with your daughter's, my wife and I'm I can't wait to tell my wife about this conversation. She said she says the same sentiment. That's part of her testimony. She said I didn't want to marry a preacher Because I had. My dad was a preacher and I saw all that her bio dad and the step dad. It wouldn't that she got her mom, they got divorced, whatever, but both of them end up being preachers. So she said I don't want no part of that. But she said God had jokes, man y'all. I didn't want to be no. First say it because I know what to go through.

Pastor Fred Moore 55:58

My wife said the same. Thing.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 55:59

Oh, really, so yeah, so I get it. Men you got many. Many don't know that Because it'll break that children.

Pastor Fred Moore 56:05

If we could just just for a minute stay here, because preachers need to know when you go in the ministry, it ain't just you, doc, it's your wife and your kids, it's the whole package. You know what I'm saying to you, it's your wife and your kids. You know it's the old joke where people said say about kids. Sometime I saw the, I saw the pastors kids acting up and the preacher replied yeah, that's because the pastors kids are hanging out with the Deacon's kids. But the truth is, man, ministry and I've seen it ministry will destroy your marriage, man. It's possible that it can destroy your marriage Just for you. Yeah, destroy you and your marriage. You know what I mean? Because some ladies and families will be like then sign up for this, chuck the deuces and they out, that's why you gotta be able to lead your family.

Pastor Fred Moore 57:02

Yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 57:03

You gotta be able to lead your children, and that's more than a text.

Pastor Fred Moore 57:07

Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 57:10

That's more than a sermon. Yes, sir, sometime it's like you said more. You told me, we, we. We come and say the other day you said, pastor Dow, monday, when we were preparing for the podcast, I text you and you said, pastor Dow, I can't get with you now because Monday is Michelle day. You don't know how that. See, that's my kind of like. I said this this is my kind of doctor right here. That's it, man. I'm serious though. Yeah. That's leadership. Yes, sir. That's leadership in your family.

Pastor Fred Moore 57:41

That's my first. That's my first ministry, man, a guy.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 57:45

But that one, the text though. Man, you, you might've been at the mall somewhere. Man, you could've been in the nail shop.

Pastor Fred Moore 57:51

Yeah, man, Not the nail shop. That doctor said the nail shop.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 57:58

I'm with my wife at the nail shop.

Pastor Fred Moore 58:00

I'm crazy. She's in the pedic, she's in the nannies and pedic.

Pastor Fred Moore 58:03

Cause we cause, we in this together, man of God, you know, I, I, I am my saying it, I do the preaching, but my wife, man behind the scenes, she takes care of everything else. Man, you know what I mean. God bless me, gave me a wife that's spiritual and beautiful. So I'm I, I got, I got a double blessing. She's spiritual and beautiful, man, you know, so I'm, I'm great friend, but I don't want the preachers again to bind to the false narrative that ministry, every day again, is sunshine. No, no, no, there's challenges, man, you know what I mean. It can weigh on you, it can weigh on your family. Now, again, it's the greatest thing you could ever do to be chosen by God. God picked you. Preacher, god picked of all, not you, not you, not you, no you, god picked you. I didn't say Michael Jordan picked you, I didn't say some other player, football player picked you, god picked you. But no, when that comes, a whole lot of other things that you better be prepared for.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 59:05

And I love this cause. I see leadership in that. Leading your family yes sir. I mean, you said this is Michelle Day man, I like that man.

Pastor Fred Moore 59:13

Yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 59:15

Michelle Mondays. Michelle Mondays man, I like that. When my wife, we used to have date night Tuesday. And. I probably I should know that for about 18, 19 years and we started when our kids was young so we could get the teenage babysitters Cause on Friday nights they go on the games so we had to pick a night where nobody business. So we would do our date night on Tuesday, cause we can get some help.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 59:43

We'll go pick them up, bring them home and get the kids in the bed and we could everybody know that's past the date night, Tuesday until our kids got older and grown and gone now. But that was her time.

Pastor Fred Moore 59:56

And I think your church needs to know that you know what I'm saying to you. It's like Monday, I'm not answering that phone and calling nobody back. You go cause you're still. I don't care how much you say it, they still gonna try it. But they see, when you don't respond, okay, past, it is serious. Okay, here's the story preacher and I ain't gonna tell them more stories. So this member tried to reach out to their pastor and they called their pastor on the day that the past is all right. So when they finally seen the pastor back in the church, they ran up to the pastor with an attitude pastor, I called you on Monday and I called you several times and you never picked up the phone. And the pastor say well, that's because Monday is my day off. The member with an attitude replied the devil don't take a day off. And the pastor say yeah, and if I didn't take a day off I'll be like the devil, yeah.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:00:55

Man. Oh, that's good man. I see you've been in them. Books man. You haven't too many gyms. Man, You've been in the book, you've been in the book.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:01:07

Come apart, come apart. You gonna come apart. Come apart and rest a while, or you gonna come apart. That's what this is about.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:01:14

I think this is so good when we put it in context like this pastor Moore, there's two sides to everything. I always say if a corn is legit, it's two sides to it. Yes, sir, one side of the ministry corn that there's a pleasure side, that's what we'll do with this purpose and pleasure.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:01:32

But then the other side, there's problems in pain, absolutely, and that's why we have to have conversations like this Absolutely, so we can show people that there's two sides, absolutely To the corn. And when five full ministers hear this you said that ministry come with a lot of headaches for that senior leader and then also for them on other levels of leadership when they hear this, these conversations, I can just say God has blessed me with leaders. When you know what your man of God those that may not be senior leaders going through now, you can be the right kind of help because now they know the lay of the land, so to speak. Man, I never really thought about this, what my pastor going through this, what my senior leader going through, amen, so now you can help alleviate some of those headaches when I have good leadership, because they carried the weight off me.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:02:28

Absolutely.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:02:29

What would you share from your experience with walking with man, just man, an iconic leader, our leader, you know? Of.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:02:37

Bishop Holcomb walking close to him. I know you shared the story, man, of him cutting you man, so you might have a more look, a less painful story, because I like your stories more. You can share how you learned a lesson from him about leadership because you know when you, when you walk with a leader, you can learn what leadership is and any story that you can share that may help all of us when we eat these wings.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:03:07

Yes, sir, here we go. He used to say this to us ministry is not paperwork, it's people work and people are not problems, they just have problems. Ministry is not paperwork Now, you have people involved, but it's people work and people are not problems, they just have problems. One of the things that he taught me through people that came and went through the Christian house of prayer was how to keep myself in the love of God. I would see the way this man and God treated people who had walked away from him did and wrong. We're being public. We're being public. I never forget it.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:03:52

When he would see a former member, even if it was a member that didn't do him right when they left, you would still see Christ likeness and how he greeted them and associated with him. And I would kind of pick his brain and he'd talk. He said because more I'd rather for you to walk away from me, thinking you got over on me, than the walk away sin I did you wrong. Wow, he taught me that. He taught me that he said I would rather for you to walk away from me. I says thinking you got over on me rather than the walk away sin I did you wrong, and he would always emphasize this keep yourself in the love of God, because you stay there. Can't nobody, a devil, stop what God's gonna do in you. Man, do with you. You know what I'm saying.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:04:46

I'm packed this more, if you can, just a little. That's a case. When you said people are not ministries, paperwork would not people work. I'm packed that a little so we can understand that. But I wanna say this you know what, just in my spirit, when you said that, that I rather people leave thinking that they got more over on me than I did them wrong. In my spirit I am saying God said it, but just in my spirit. What the worst just hit me is like see God can trust a man like that.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:05:15

Yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:05:16

And see, that's the essence when we're talking about I hope they're picking up what we're putting down that exhale lead. Well. Yes, sir, that's a leader outside of pulpit. How he's conducting himself in interaction with those that left, those that betrayed, those that gave him the Judas kiss, if it would be, that's the leadership. How you conduct yourself outside of the pulpit, that's your leadership. And you was watching.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:05:47

You were watching you were watching, I had the privilege of being by your side on many. Okay, I'll tell you another one, which is, which is a leadership principle, but I just show it to you, tell you about it. So we're in the church is in Colleen and Carpers Cove, but we're in Austin. Actually, we're in Round Rock Bishop and I, right See again, he taught me more by how he lived it, the foaming, than just preaching to me. You know what I'm saying, cause you know how they say it's more caught than taught right, see we picking that up, ministers.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:06:25

Y'all ought to put that in the chat. More caught than taught. So that's your leadership, people catching your leadership, not just what you preach.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:06:33

Yeah, jesus say. I've given you an example that you should follow. I've given you an example, so here's another. Here's another example just to show you what kind of man of God he was. So he and I are eating at a restaurant. It's not in Carpers Cove or Colleen well, we all lived there at the time but it's up here in Austin and we're in a restaurant. Why is this? Dr Dow and a preacher from our area walked in the restaurant with another woman other than his wife, and Bishop Holcomb knows this guy really well. Now I'm like a. The picture, dr Dow, I'm gonna give you is I'm like a little boy holding his father's hand and I see what he see. But I wanna see how you're gonna respond to it. You know what I'm saying.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:07:20

You know my son can hold my hands and somebody's coming to it and your son look up at you and then look up at them like daddy. What's that about, bishop? The person walked to that. Now, I ain't saying the preacher was sleeping with the woman. All I'm saying is he walked in the restaurant. We all live in the Colleen Carpers Cove area, but this woman, this guy, was in closer to Austin, in a restaurant with a woman other than his wife. Okay, and I ain't saying nothing was going on, but when, bishop, they have the counselor, they have the counselor.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:07:59

I'm saying, I'm just saying I'm calling you.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:08:03

I know, forget this. Bishop greeted them. We finished eating, we got in Bishop's car and drove off. You wanna know what Bishop told me about that situation? Nothing, he didn't say one thing and never did. I said, oh, I get it, cause he had a phrase more just leave it alone. Just leave it alone. Now, he didn't say that to me, but that's what he did. He greeted him and walked out and he said he never said anything. He didn't say could you believe he walked in there with that woman? What is he doing with that woman? He never said one thing. Cause there was times when I would be inquiring about this and inquiring about that and Bishop say more, leave it alone. He said things here's his phrase things come to get my attention, but I don't give them my attention. He said things come to get my attention, but I don't give them my attention. He said I'm going forward into what God has promised me and I'm not looking back to see who's following. That's straight from the Bishop's mouth. That's straight from the Bishop's mouth.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:09:18

So that last part. I'm taking notes, man.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:09:22

Things don't get my attention they won't keep my attention what you say after that he says problems, things come to get my attention, but I don't give them my attention.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:09:32

And then he said something after that.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:09:33

And then he says I'm going forward into what God has promised me and I'm not looking back to see who's following. Woo yeah. Yeah, straight from the beloved Bishop, nate Holcomb.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:09:49

I'll see this is again. We see ministers exhale. We think it's just only because, they preach. Well, right, we think it's in the preaching Right, in the marriage. Most we got here because of the marriage most, no, no, they forget that. Maybe one side, but they forgot there's a leadership? Absolutely, we're picking up here more. What you learn is is that many can't leave because they, like the wrong things, get their attention when you just should leave that alone.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:10:29

Absolutely, Absolutely man I'm just preaching Christ and moving forward. We, we looking back and man, we running into stuff, like y'all following me who didn't come, who didn't show up, who didn't support, and I had that problem more in my wife.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:10:51

The woman helped me because she would tell me this more she I would be, more we do something. I'd be more like, well, what was this one that and what was that one that? And my wife would be like, hey, let's, let's. Don't focus on who didn't come, let's focus on who come. Another word Don't look back at who, who, who didn't, who following. Just keep moving forward. Yeah, that's great.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:11:16

That's leadership. Let me tell you what I'm preaching. So so another preacher. He said because, again, keep yourself in the love of God. So another preacher. He gives me his, one of his tapes. We date myself and I want to be state one of his messages.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:11:31

He said why don't you listen to this message, man? And I preach? Man, I preach this message. I want you to listen to it, man, and tell me what you think. So I'm not, I'm not making the fish bigger than it is, I ain't exaggerating.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:11:42

So I listen to the message from start to finish, and it was a little while before I saw it right and I'm following in the spirit of what you just said. Think about what you just said. Your wife would tell me I'm following. And so I listen to the message, dr Dow. And then I'm like whoa, whoa. So I never called him back. So when he saw me, he said man, I gave you the message. Man, I ain't heard back from you. What's going on? What did you think? All I can say to him, dr Don, was who are you mad at? Who are you mad at? That wasn't a preacher preaching, that was a preacher fussing a better, a bitter preacher. A bitter preacher, you may remember, in CCI we have some twin brothers that passed it and they came from Louisiana. They passed them in street porch. Remember the twins that used to be with us. I don't remember that name, but they were twin brothers.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:12:42

I think I know you're talking about yeah.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:12:44

Well about the people not being here. So one of the twins told me this story. So he got so mad at his church and they had gotten his last nerve and people wouldn't cooperate until he got up in that poor pit and he just went off on him and he said after the service a mother, a mother in a church, said baby, who you fussin' at there, was you fussin' at, not even here. You don't talk to us like you're talking to them.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:13:11

I'm done Wrong man. God, that's good man, I know man, I know, I know we've been eating good. They get ready to close down this restaurant. So we're going to have to do some rapid fire before we get out of here, because I see them getting ready to clean up. To where to they get ready? Everybody ready to go home, they shut down the kitchen.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:13:34

Okay, we're going to get ready to close this down. Okay, I think this has been so good. This is good, man of God. Because what I'm picking up when you say, people, that people work, not paperwork, do the paperwork, but the primary thing is the people work.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:13:50

If you don't have. If you don't have people, you don't have no paperwork to do. If you don't have people, there's no. Put the priority where it should be. If you don't have any people, you ain't got no paperwork.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:14:03

It's okay to have all the forms and you don't have to do it. They're going to fill out this and they going to do this and that's good, so that's why you got to. So you got to know how to deal with people. I love that man, I pour that man. That is, that's good stuff, man, that is good stuff.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:14:22

I love this so much to, and we'll do the rapid fire that you want to do, man, but I'm saying let's chop it up again, man, if you open for it.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:14:33

Oh, man, my open, I like to. When I have people on here, I can get your word in front of y'all listening. I can, when we work, do our schedules you, I can get you back on again, right? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I know you, man, you were.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:14:47

I just like to get it wherever I'll put it in the chat I love to come home with you with this me, you, your boys or whatever you want to do it, man, Put it in the chat that you've invited us, man.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:14:58

Put it in the chat. Pastor Moore said he coming back on, so that way they got your word. Y'all put it in the chat. He's never come back.

Leadership Wisdom and Relevance in Ministry

Pastor Fred Moore 1:15:04

Whenever you want me, man, god, man, this is good. You let me know, you may lead bands. Now when I say at least in advance, a few days in advance, you know what I mean. I got. I will be honest because preachers is. I'm a friend to preachers, I love to talk preachers. Talk, man, this is good, let me say this, it hit me.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:15:22

We're having this conversation I think the Lord is orchestrating and we talk about again. We didn't, we didn't exegete text, we didn't talk about hermaneunics. It's a great thing. All what we're seeing in the essence is helping people have a bigger panoramic view of the leadership. And what I just pulled out of this, Pastor Moore, just kind of hit me is this when you said the preacher, like the person made the statement, who are you mad at Right? Remember early I said that it was a testament of your leadership, that all that you go through, that all that you encounter, see, that's what you're saying, yes, sir, and that that cause cause you. Man, you bring a revelation, not your frustration. Yeah, I, you go. I'm not saying in the word, not your worry.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:16:10

And there's a temptation, preacher, especially when people have left your church and you know they did your own. Because to me now the congregation is looking at you like sheep right To see how you're gonna respond when you getting that pulpit. Are you gonna come up there and show godly leadership? You know what I'm saying to you. You know, because Paul said when the folk left him, he said I pray that it don't be laid to their charge. When the folk was crucifying Christ, Lord, forgive them for what they're doing. When they were stolen in Stephen, forgive them, Lord. They don't know what they're doing. That's gotta be our position. Even when we're wrong, man, we gotta get up there. Bishop Jake said it like this you gotta be willing to lead while bleeding. Leading while bleeding, man.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:16:58

You know what I mean, and it's gonna be that the biggest problem is not what happened to us, but how we respond to it how we respond to it and that's a leadership, and what I was gonna say in that more that I just see with you is it's self leadership. Yes, sir, Back to what you said early the learning, yes sir. Meaning that when you have the self lead, you lead yourself before you get in the pulpit? Yes, sir.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:17:23

Yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:17:24

You let yourself through healing? Yes sir. Through deliverance.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:17:27

Yes, sir, through forgiving.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:17:30

That's why you have to lead yourself to, like you know, the prayer group that we have, that you all have for many years, or being around good brother. See, that's self leadership that gets you to a place. Yes, sir. So that when you get in the pulpit you can really pull people out of the pit, because you already pulled out of your pit.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:17:48

Amen, amen and I think that deals with leadership. But back to people have problems, but they're not problems. You said people are not the problem, they have problems. Let's do some rapid fire. We can help these minutes before we close. When we're leaders, we're gonna often have to deal with conflicts and difficult situations. How do you recommend ministers handle conflicts within the congregation or teams? You know they might be over the praise team. You know head elders, deacons, just five-fold In general. Give some wisdom in dealing with different conflicts and problems that people have.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:18:27

Well, number one, except, again, the reality that there's gonna be conflicts, there's gonna be differences of opinion. No, that comes with. I always tell our praise and worship team and our musicians that we have, you know, if we don't have a law of the orchestra, but for the people that we have, I say y'all guys, gotta remember that Satan failed from heaven and straight into the music department. He failed from heaven as a worship leader at the orchestra and failed right. So if there's gonna be any challenges, it's gonna be in this praise and worship and this music department. You know what I mean.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:19:04

But again, if we're on the tool, it's Matthew 18. You go to your brother and you try to reconcile with your brother. If he won't listen to you, you go to your brother with some other saints and if he won't listen to you you know what I mean you take the leadership and leadership address it. That's what I believe in doing Practicing. Matthew 18 just answered the question when we go to him ourself to try to resolve. You know, if it's a conflict between leaders, have you went to them? See, don't come to me about it have you went to them, cause the biblical way is you go to them. They won't hear you, then we take somebody else. If they won't, that's. You know what I mean. Matthew 18. To me, it's one of the main ways to resolve conflicts among leaders and leaders using the Matthew 18 principle.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:19:46

Good wisdom, because what happens is if a pastor get involved in stuff before the season, then you mess up stuff. You shouldn't be on that level. So not help pastors, let it go through the proper levels.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:19:58

Absolutely.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:19:59

You don't bring it up to the high level. You can't go into that level.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:20:02

Right, cause it'll come across like you're favoring those that bought it to you. And again, I've always told Michelle this make sure you hear the whole story, because remember there's two sides to every story, and promise it when you judge a matter before hearing the whole story. You're not wise. You know what I mean. I, like Solomon. I always say with certain situations, I really mean this, dr Dow, somebody that bring me something, I just say a prayer, as Bishop would say. My heart goes to God and I say, father, now give me the wisdom that you gave Solomon when he was able to discern which one of them was the real mother. See, god gave Solomon that wisdom and he was able to discern which mother was lying and which one was real. So my heart and he had me no longer a Lord, give me the wisdom to discern not who's right, but what's right.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:20:50

That's good.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:20:51

It comes through. Good man, I got sorry man that's good.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:20:53

Now, that's good stuff, pastor Moore. Pastor Moore, as the landscape of ministry involves, with the advancement of technology, changing social norms, how should ministers adjust their leadership methods, mindsets, because we know that we got the same message, but our methods, mindsets and skill sets to remain relevant and effective. So much change in social technology, all things. What's just some advice that you would give to ministers so they won't fall behind?

Pastor Fred Moore 1:21:28

How do?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:21:28

you remain relevant. What would you say?

Pastor Fred Moore 1:21:30

Well, I'm a court of bishop and it's actually Bishop Paul Martin. He said preachers, you're married to the mission and date the method. You're married to the mission and date the method. What he's basically was saying to preachers in a cause. They had a questioning and answer thing about this technology and all that. So, because some people criticize preachers who preach from an iPad, you do realize that, right, there are preachers that think, man, he bringing an iPad, a desk, that is a Bible and why are you preaching from the iPad? And my precious wife, god bless her heart, and she's just having a life like technology, she said I wonder if Jesus would say, would he be bothered by an iPad? You know what I mean. So you'd be married to the know, your mission, stay married to your mission and why. You know what you're doing, what you're doing, but you date the method.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:22:26

Things come and things go. They evolve over time. You know what I mean. They evolve over time. So I'm for technology. Now I just tell you this. Now I can get in trouble right here. I can get in trouble right here. I just say, in a generous sense, I just say that technology lights all that. Let's just make sure, though, that the environment that we're trying to create is that of a church encounter and not a club, an event. You know what I'm saying Because I was telling this guy and I just say this, he was a precious wife, brother, and he was saying I need to get my son in a church, friend, you know what I mean.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:23:04

You can think of me in a church, and I mentioned one church that I thought would be good for his son and he said no, friend, I want my son to feel like he went to church and not an event. You know what I'm saying. I want my son to be able to say he went to church and not an event. So God is not against technology. God gives men the knowledge that we have. You know what I'm saying. And technology is not bad. I'm talking about from the large screens that people are using and all that. You know what I mean, but I still believe, whatever we do, first of all, every preacher, you do what God telling you to do. But ultimately, let's make sure that when the people come, that they say they encounter God and not just went to an event.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:23:47

Well, I love it. Yeah, I love it. We'll have to break that down on another podcast, whatever, because that's so good that you want them to make sure that they had an encounter with God. An encounter with God, you know they left, Because when people go to a ball game, they go to. They want them to know you were at a sporting event.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:24:06

Absolutely.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:24:07

When you come to church you want to be. No doubt I've been to the house of God. We have all of that, but if I don't leave knowing I'm been in the house of God. We missed it somewhere.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:24:16

We've leading wrong right. It's not good. It's not good, Dr Dow, this needs to note. It's a distinction right that this was church.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:24:24

It's not the same.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:24:25

Bishop, let me say this about the guy before you go. Bishop said this Bishop quoted this scripture to his famous scripture the All Preachers know. Jesus said my house shall be called the house of prayer, but you made it an inner thieves. Now, what Bishop put the emphasis was he said my house should be called the house of prayer, and you know it. Dr Bishop said but you've made it. He says some churches, what they become, it ain't what God made it, that's what you made it, but you made it an inner thieves. So some churches are no longer a church. You've made it something else other than what God wanted to be. You know what I'm saying? Those folk need to leave our churches saying listen, as Jacob said, surely this is none other than the house of God. That's what they need to say. They need to have a Jacob moment where they say surely this is none other than the house of God. God is in this place.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:25:19

Man, pastor Moore man, I've enjoyed this time I pray that you all have enjoyed Pastor Moore. Be sure you put in the chat. For those that are on a different social media platform, be sure that you leave us a review. Let us know how you enjoyed this. You can reach Pastor Moore at KGCC, at KCCATXorg.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:25:42

Yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:25:42

If you're ever in the Round Rock area, sure, round Rock Texas, round Rock, texas, I'll show you. Outside of Austin, visit them at the Kingdom of God Christian Church. Pastor Moore, I enjoyed this time. Any final word of wisdom that you like to maybe just speak before we end this for now, because this has been good. You know we're standing up. They've got the keys at the door. We've got the keys, the wings, at the table. Man, they don't vacuum clean while we're talking. They're ready to get out the building. Yes, sir.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:26:14

We've enjoyed the meal. I've enjoyed it. Any final word that you give to these ministers to help them in the leadership. But they said, man, I heard something. I want to just be a preacher. Yes, sir, I want to be a good leader as well. Any final words?

Pastor Fred Moore 1:26:29

Well, I would just say to every preacher man, don't despise the day of small beginnings, Don't try to keep up with who's doing this, who's doing that. Run your own race at your own pace and don't be bothered because your church is of a certain size. You know, 80% of churches in America are small, and I'm not saying this because I don't pass the mega church either. But I'm not saying that God must like smaller churches, If 80% of the churches in America is of a smaller size. But be comfortable in the skin that you in. Be true to yourself. As the late Dr Mars Monroe says being original Don't die a copy man.

Blessings and Achieving Greatness

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:27:12

Amen. Well, I appreciate you, passimo. You are a great leader, man and God, original, not a copy. We pray that you all have been blessed. We pray, now that you have eaten well, that you will excel. I want you never to forget, no matter where you are, ministers, or what you're going through in life, god is testing you for greatness and I pray and I believe that you're going to live better, you're going to do better, you're going to fulfill the divine mandate on your life and even, as the man of God has said today, that when God birthed his son, out of all the things that he made him, he made him a preacher. Thank.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:27:50

God for the call on your life. And what we do, as the man of God said today, is what we do today. It will echo in eternity, not just to coach your teacher. What we do will have an everlasting result. No leadership, not just your preaching. It will echo in eternity. We look forward to being with you on our next podcast. God bless you. Thank you again, passimo, being with us on the day.

Pastor Fred Moore 1:28:16

Got love for you, man.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:28:17

Amen, amen, amen.