Caterpillar to Butterfly Leadership: Wisdom Before Wings

In this episode, Pastor Dowell sits down with Pastor Cornelius for a candid and insightful conversation about leadership maturity—why some ministers soar in their gift yet stall in their growth. Together, they explore what it truly means to move from crawling to flying by developing the first essential wing of leadership: wisdom.

This isn’t about theory—it’s about real, applicable wisdom that helps leaders balance vision and timing, honor the houses they enter, and sustain the doors their anointing once opened.

Through the vivid analogy of the caterpillar-to-butterfly journey, the discussion exposes how many gifted leaders struggle not because of lack of calling, but because of poor people skills or premature ambition. The conversation unpacks how the simple rhythm of adjust, appreciate, and advance can transform team culture and restore relational flow.

Listeners will hear practical examples of how to navigate different rooms without losing authenticity, expand their leadership toolbox (“learn to dribble with both hands”), and discern moments when silence can build more influence than speaking. The episode also tackles the danger of copying visible success on social media while ignoring context, capacity, and credibility.

From managing challenges “one bite at a time” to valuing relationships without becoming hostage to them, this dialogue offers actionable strategies for pastors, prophets, evangelists, teachers, and ministry leaders at every level.

If your heart is ready to soar but your results feel stuck, this episode reveals why wisdom—not gifting—is often the missing wing.

Pray for it. Pursue it. Position yourself around leaders who model it.

Subscribe for more leadership-focused conversations, share this episode with a fellow minister who needs a lift, and leave a review to help others discover the show.

Where do you need wisdom most right now?

Transcript

Welcome, Mission, And Sponsor

unknown 0:03

Welcome to the Fivefold Food Podcast, hosted by Dr. Robert F. Dial, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment they need to succeed. The Word of God declares and he gave some apostles and sub prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Prepare to receive revelation, wisdom, and insight to empower your ministry for victory. Now, let's speak.

Meet Pastor C And His Ministry

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 0:37

God bless you. Welcome to another edition of Fivefold Food Ministry Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Robert F. Down. I'm so delighted to have you here with us for another podcast. I want to encourage you, no matter where you may be viewing or listening to this, whether on YouTube, Spotify, or iTunes, that you'll be sure that you subscribe so that you can get the latest podcasts as they come out. Our endeavor in this podcast to equip you as the fivefold ministers with the food that you need to succeed so that you can go to your next level. Our desire is for you to eat well so that you can excel. A man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word uh that proceeded out of the mouth of God. I want to encourage you to be sure also that you uh give us a good rating. If you're watching on iTunes or you listen on iTunes, be sure to look in the show notes and you can see of all the great resources and materials uh that we have for the minister to help him grow and succeed. We want to thank God for one of our sponsors for the podcast today, the New Life Bible College and Seminary. Whether you want to further your spiritual education or get the degree that you never had, uh you can get uh the certificate in discipleship, bachelor's in ministry, master's in ministry, master's divinity, all the way to the doctoral. The New Life Bible College and Seminary is here to meet your need. Just be sure if you're interested in uh getting more information from the New Life Bible College and Seminary or any other materials, you should see a QR code. If you're watching there uh on YouTube, you can scan that QR code, it'll give you a link to all those resources, and so that you can know more about the ministry uh Bible school and college. If not, you can look in the show notes and there's be some information for you today. Well, I'm super duper excited about today's podcast, and we want to get right to our discussion on today. Today, I'm so uh delighted to have with me that's no stranger to this podcast, my good friend uh of the podcast, Dr. C P Cornelius. He's with us for this podcast. We so affectionately call him Pastor C. Pastor C. How are we doing today?

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 3:00

Doing good, man. How are you doing?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 3:02

I'm doing good. I know we're looking forward to doing this uh podcast. We hadn't really been able to talk today, and so I'm excited to hear and to see what the Lord is gonna cook up because I don't know what you're doing. Praise God, I don't know what I'm gonna say, we don't know what the Holy Spirit's gonna say, but I believe it's going uh uh to be well. So I'm looking forward uh to eating well so that I can excel in the ministry. But before we get started, real quick, for those who may uh be uh new to the podcast and don't know who you are, can you just very briefly uh familiarize them with uh who you are and where you do ministry?

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 3:37

My name is Pastor Clinton P. Cornelius. I do ministry in Florida, nice city, a little small place, Fort Mead, Florida. I've been senior pastor here for 30 years. I've been employed here for 42 years. So, but senior pastor, like I say, for 30 years here. Um that's what I do. I do a lot of stuff here in the community. I'm real big and seeing a lot of the uh different committees here. I'm real big by community service, doing services. So that's basic what I do here in Fort Sunny, Fort Mead, Florida.

Caterpillar To Butterfly Leadership

Why Ministers Need Leadership Wings

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 4:20

Amen. Well, you're not, in other words, and for those that are new to the podcast, you're not new to this over 30 years and pastorial ministry, more than that, and just ministry and full-time ministry. So you bring a wealth of knowledge uh to our uh table and travel abroad as well, and speaking and working with other pastors, as some would call sons and daughters in the ministry, giving that care as well. Also, as you said, in the community with different uh different leadership uh capacity. And that's what we want to uh I want to we want to talk about uh today in our discussion today. I'm excited about we want to talk about me and you, Pastor C. We was having a conversation, he was sharing with me, you know, uh uh a message that you had preached at your church, you know, and we were talking about that, and then you had an opportunity to uh go and minister somewhere else, and God kind of uh used as a springboard the message that you had taught and had you begin to put a leadership dynamic to it, man. And as we talked about it, it it really blessed my heart. And what we want to talk about today, we want to talk about uh leadership wings, how every leader needs to have a leadership wings, and what we want to talk about how to go from a caterpillar to a butterfly, uh how to butterfly leader, not be a caterpillar leader. In order to go to uh become a butterfly leader, not a caterpillar leader. Uh, you you have to have wings, and I was so blessed as we had that conversation. I see it so stirred something within me that I said, Man, we got to do a podcast about this, we got to capture this because you know this started many, many years ago. We would have conversations, and God has tremendously blessed my life and my ministry uh from our conversations. You know, they're just not chit chat. Yeah, we'll talk about sports, we'll talk about uh different things like that. You know, if we want to talk about sports now, you know, of course, in this season that we're doing the podcast, you know, I talk about those OKC Thunder, how they're the raining NBA champs. You know, I wouldn't say much about the Auburn Tigers because at this podcast, we don't know by the time it comes out later, we might have our same coach. We ain't doing good at all. So I won't even talk about them. Stealers are doing okay now. Uh so but but I was we won't we don't talk sports, we do that, we won't talk that today. But when we always talking about ministry, we're talking about life, the conversations are really so rich, and that's why I say I want to begin to capture that those conversations so that others could benefit as well. So go ahead, pull the seat up to the table as we just have a discussion that we always had, and so that way you can get uh what you need as you're driving to help you in in your ministry. And I'm looking forward uh to learning as well because this is how we do it, Pastor C. But when you were telling me about the message, it stirred with within my heart, you know, uh about from a caterpillar uh to uh a butterfly. And before we get into conversation, just real briefly, can you kind of talk a little just about uh the concept of what you were meaning from the caterpillar to the butterfly? Then we'll kind of get into the podcast today.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 7:28

Dealing with different stages of leadership, and that leader growing and developing ultimately to get wings. So that's what we were dealing with, the different stages. Um, that caterpillar, as you know, crawls now. That when he when he's crawling, he's faster than the butterfly on the ground, because he's on the ground, but the butterfly flies over that that the caterpillar having to deal with on the ground. So, as a leader, I want to move from just crawling to eventually flying, but those stages, different stages, I believe you go through that the Lord allows to go through, and what the purpose of the stages is to develop you to eventually you get the wings and you rise up and lead with wings.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 8:22

Wow. I mean, I love that. So what we got to understand is as fivefold ministers, that there's some stages that we need to go through in our leadership development, uh, so we can go from uh the crawling stage to the flying stage, and so we got some leaders, some ministers. If if that we don't have this type of conversation uh relative even to leadership, they can be crawling and don't even know they're crawling when they should be flying, and you're not gonna get to your destination. Listen, ministers, as a as a prophet, evangelist, pastor, uh uh, whatever your your your designation, whatever five-fold ministry you have, you're not gonna get to your this what I what rings in my spirit, Pastor C, that you're not going to get to your ultimate destiny, your ultimate place that God have you without developing the leadership wings that you need, yes, not just preaching wings, not the ability to prophesy or singing wings, but you're gonna have to develop your leadership wings, henceforth. Why we need to have leadership discussions. Uh uh, when we're talking about five-fold ministry, we have to have the discussion of leadership. Something you want to say in that, Pastor C.

Wisdom As The First Wing

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 9:41

Yeah, because we have to understand as leader, we're influencing people. So it's gonna take some wings to do this. You got to know how to soar, you got to know how to fly because we influence. So when we talk about as a leader, a leader is one that influenced my watchword, leader is one that impact. So if you're gonna make a lasting impact as a leader, you need to get to the wings. But there are stages, and the other thing with that, Pastor Dow, you don't just jump from the caterpillar to the butterfly. There's a cocoon in there. You go through a period of time whenever you you're up in that cocoon and you're being developed, and that's in a dark place, and that's oftentimes we go through as leaders, it's in that dark times where you really can't see what it is, but God is getting you ready for the wings. And once you get the wings, now you're ready to lead people to a higher level, and that's what it's about. You want to elevate people, move them to a higher level. How you gonna do that and you crawl it?

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 10:44

Yeah, and and and the thing will hit me, Pastor, see some uh prophets, evangelists, pastors, uh elders, ministers, uh associates, they're crawling as leaders and don't know it because they may be flying as prophets, flying as pastors, flying as apostles, but they have not they don't have the dimension of leadership. And what blessed me so many years ago in John Maxwell, when I came in contact with him over 30 some years ago, that everything rise and falls off leadership. Not only does it rise and fall, but if it if it rise, it won't stay there if without leadership. And so the key component to you reaching your ultimate goal is not just in your uh your gifting, your anointing, that we must have leadership uh development because ultimately you're gonna need people to be able to walk alongside you, with you, and also to follow you. And that takes leadership, not just the ability to operate in your gift.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 11:46

That's correct. That's correct. See, it's like you got to take some flight classes, man. I look at it like that, you got to learn how to fly. We have to learn how to fly, because if you cannot fly, now people ain't gonna people ain't gonna go with you. See, because your your ultimate thing is as I lead them, I want them to develop wings. So I need wings as a leader because I want them to develop wings, because the ultimate thing is when you look at the butterfly, it's a cycle. It starts with eggs, then it's a then it's a caterpillar, goes from that to the cocoon, then the butterfly gets the wings, but then it reproduces and do the cycle all over again. Because a leader with wings now is a leader that's also reproducing themselves in somebody else.

Timing, Vision, And Avoiding Costly Mistakes

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 12:37

Yeah, and I think this is so crucial. Let's get down uh to developing these wings, Pastor C, because this is why many pastors, evangelists, ministers are frustrated with the results of their ministry, is because of a lack of leadership. And they don't know that it's that they think it's something else, but it's leadership. Because whether you're leading an auxiliary in your church, uh many times you you feel like we can't, people don't serve, people don't support, people are not faithful, you know, you can't depend on people. And so we have many five-fold ministry leaders, Pastor C, pastors included, who are leading organizations but are not having the results that they want with the people, and they're gifted, they're anointed. And I want we want them to see in this podcast on the next few sessions as we deal with this, the reason is because they're not flying as leaders because they haven't taken time to go through the different stages as leaders beyond their preaching and teaching. And when you dealt with this message, Pastor C, you dealt with the concept of wings. And so, what tell us uh what was the concept of wings, and let's begin to develop what was what was the W, and that's what we'll deal with today. And they'll have to tune in uh to find out, and maybe our next podcast, we don't get to it today. How else can we develop? Let's talk about that first stage today, and what is that W in wings?

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 14:02

That Wings, you got to walk in wisdom. As a leader, you must walk in wisdom, and so that was that W. And many of you are familiar with what wisdom would be is knowing what to do, not just what to do, but how to do it in the timing of when to do it. That's that wisdom. You got to walk in wisdom as a leader. That that's that W with those wings, where if I'm gonna lead, I must walk in wisdom.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 14:37

You gotta walk in wisdom, and so let's let's talk about then why does wisdom uh matter? Well, let's let's let's discuss this. Why what does why does wisdom matter in terms of leaders? Why do ministers need leadership uh wisdom? Why do ministers need uh wisdom in general for ministry? And what I think about, Pastor C, and I want to give me your thoughts on this. What hit me when I begin to think about this is that Proverbs says that not faith, not power, not anointing, but it says wisdom is the principal thing, it's the primary thing, it's the most important thing, and and and the Bible talking about how a wise woman uh builds a house with wisdom. Wisdom is built, a house is built by wisdom. So I think it's so important, Pastor C, because anointing will allow you to birth ministry, uh gifting will allow you to birth ministry, but wisdom will allow you to build it. Yeah, the reason a lot of times we haven't been able to build properly, because we didn't have wisdom and and and we didn't have leadership wisdom, and so that hits me why we we need that because without wisdom, man, we we can tear down, we'll tear up a lot of stuff. Man, you can you can you can be prophetic, you can be uh can preach the house down and tear everything down because you didn't have wisdom how to deal with different things, and it had nothing to do with your anointing. And so I think that's why it's important to have this wisdom.

People Skills And Doors That Stay Open

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 16:18

Okay, I agree. One of the things is the wisdom also it balances your vision and your timing. See, as a leader, if whatever you lean in, is sometimes our timing is off. I call it getting in the rhythm of God, knowing the right timing. And what wisdom does, not only do I have vision, but the timing of it. When do I walk in this? When do when's the best time for me to make my move? Whatever that might be. So you in the five fold, whatever the gift in you in, Pastor, so you might have all the information. You have the vision, but your balance, your vision, and your vision and your time is not balanced. You got the vision, this is what we want to be, or this is something we need to get done. But you are that's the vision part. But the balance of that, the timing of that, wise enough to do it. And if you're not, if you don't have wisdom in it, you ain't careful, the followers will influence you, and you'll make a move, or you get caught up in what everybody else is doing. So I think that's one reason why wisdom is important. That's that's one of the reasons. And also it prevents costly mistakes. When you got wisdom, that you take the time to get wisdom. A lot of mistakes can be prevented if you just walk in wisdom, in dealing with people, understanding their personality, and knowing when wisdom, wisdom, it's the wisdom that helps me in that.

Flowing In Another House With Honor

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 18:00

Yeah, uh, yeah, because wisdom, what did it do? Wisdom will protect you as well. Yes, that in proverb, wisdom will prevent you, so it'll it'll it'll help prevent things. So that's why we need wisdom. And I want to what I want to, I think it's so important, Pastor C, that I I think ministers need to get is that uh this is outside of the anointing, because we need the anointing, we we we need proper hermeneutics, we need proper homeletics, all of those things, how to exhort. But what we gotta also have to be effective, to have things that sustain, we need wisdom. Without wisdom, you can have a successful uh ministry, but lose your marriage from the ministry because you didn't have wisdom. You can have signs and wonder without wisdom. Your your gifting are called chaos, growth are caused confusion, it'll become overwhelming. Uh uh problems uh uh that are small fires become big fires. Why? Because of a lack of wisdom. And so and so we need that wisdom not just to birth that's anointing, but we need wisdom to be able uh to sustain. Now, let's look at what are some of the other dangers that you might see, Pastor C to kind of help emphasize a danger when when a minister uh does not uh have uh the wisdom or maybe some of the consequences. I kind of hear, but I really want them to feel uh the the power of wisdom. And I think in my own life, I give you a moment, I think about even my own life in areas in ministry where where I didn't have wisdom, I suffered unnecessarily. I took some L's that I didn't have to take. I I had some uh problems that I didn't have to have because I lacked wisdom, and so I realized in retrospect, as I gained wisdom in ministry, I learned those problems. So I think that's so important that people have to understand ministers have to understand uh in their ministry, and these are just not pastors, this is in every area of ministry and dealing with people because you need wisdom in dealing with people, and because a minister lacks wisdom, there were some doors. I've dealt with people, even though we're not just saying this just for pastors, just for all levels, because they didn't have ministerial wisdom, they closed doors. You because you didn't know how to relate to uh the the leader in the proper way, you went in with your title, you went in with with your rider, with your contract, you ain't on that level, and you coming in with a contract, and you won't die. And because you didn't have wisdom in dealing with leadership, doors was closed. Your heart could have been right, but because of lack of wisdom, you gave a wrong impression. You came off like you were arrogant, you wasn't arrogant, you just didn't have wisdom to know how to have the proper people skills, how to interact with people. You wanted to guard the anointing and you wanted the God, but the pastor people come, they're trying to be friendly, but you didn't have wisdom, so you gave the wrong impression and you closed doors. You you didn't have wisdom, you came off like you were all about money because you you you've been burned before, and you want to make sure you weren't taken care of, so you start doing all this, but you didn't have wisdom. How that you need to put that in the letter, how you not to know when the right time to bring that up. So now you came off the wrong way. So I'm telling you, Pastor C, we need wings.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 21:43

We need wisdom. We need wisdom. Wisdom, wisdom also producing you down more of a peace instead of chaotic. In some areas in my life, I felt like where things was chaotic, because I had wisdom, it caused me to bring peace in that particular situation. But on the other hand, my lack of wisdom, I created some things that were chaotic because I didn't know properly at the time how to do it. I didn't have the wisdom how to maneuver something. Because as your ministry grows, whatever the pastor, whatever, whatever area you have in the lead, and always use the reference. It's like you move from driving a small compact car to an SUV, from an SUV, you end up now with an 18-wheeler. And you got to have the will to know how to turn it. You don't turn everything the same. You don't make the decisions you make now, you need wisdom in how you make them because how you did it one level is not the same at the next level. So oftentimes when I have messed up personally myself in the ministry, not recognizing when it's time to shift, when it's time to hold it, when it's time to shift, I move to the next. So I needed wisdom to do it. And at that time, I didn't have that. So it killed me. So yes, we need wisdom, even to know when the bust to move or when the whole body, when the ship, when how to turn this thing, it's growing. How do I turn it? How do I shift to another? Wisdom, especially as a pastor for me in a congregation, that I have mixed, I got mixed generations. So I need wisdom because the way I deal with one of my singers in the church, it's not the same way necessarily with one of my millennials. So it takes wisdom to know how to balance that and to get everybody on the team on the same page.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 23:53

Oh man, Pastor.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 23:54

ISU got it's chaotic.

Expand Your Toolbox: Dribble With Both Hands

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 23:57

Let's deal with this. Let's deal with, you know, uh, maybe let's deal with a couple things and maybe how to get some of this wisdom and how we we need this wisdom. Uh, what I'm hearing in dealing with people. That's what I want to bring, and I want the minister to realize, because you were dealing with different people groups as a pastor. So I think the principle is that we need wisdom in dealing with people, not just as a pastor, but whether you're an itinerant minister, minister, you lead an auxiliary, you you have a ministry you do online, you do conferences. You need a wisdom in dealing with people. Meaning that let's look at some areas, maybe some mistakes that we made. We've seen people make pastor. See, we said some of our own. I see what dealing with people of ministers. If you don't get the wisdom, we're gonna tell you how to get it too. You need to know how to deal with what what your pastor in your church. There's a wisdom that you need to be able to deal and flow with your pastor, and because every pastor is different, the personality is different, the the calling is different, the structure of the church. So you need what I want you to understand, you need a wisdom in knowing how to how to how to follow the protocol within your church and the wisdom, how to have your ministry uh that that God has given you, but still honor the ministry that you own, and not building a ministry just like within a ministry. How do you you want to be able to have wisdom to let the pastors know in your church, just as I found maybe we'll give some things to help ministers. You want to always, first of all, let's give some let's give some wisdom. Because I think wisdom, two things wisdom can be taught, and wisdom can be caught. Yeah, so wisdom has to be taught, and it has to be caught, and it's caught on platforms like this and podcasts. So let's let's teach you some wisdom. You what you need to realize, you need to make sure that that pastor, if you are a minister, that they know that you are for the ministry, that you're tied into that vision, that you are tied into that church. We're not talking about this man-pleasing thing that we can get in that kind of mindset. See, that it's not all about man, but I'm giving you wisdom. As you have as a minister, you want to one of the first thing you want to do, you want to be able to assure the pastor, apostle, whoever he or she may be, not just with your words, but with your life and your action, that you are you're committed to the vision there, that you're tied into the vision. Why? Because when they when a pastor or leader, when they see that you're committed to what God has given them, then that unlocks them to help you in what God is giving you if they're the right leader, right? Because there's first things first. The Bible says you got to be faithful in somebody else's vision before you give your own. So you want to be able to do that, so that way, hear this. Now you won't seem you won't come off as threatening, especially you're a mighty prophet, you got gifts, you got the talents. Some pastors are more uh not as sure of themselves. Now, if you round a pastor that's uh weak and can't handle your anointing and your ability, he's gonna be like Saul, you better run when God tell you to, because if he if he can't handle your strength, but sometimes it's not that they're the problem, but you came off the wrong way because you never let them know that I'm for it. Meaning that don't just come with all your ideas and your thing pointing out things that are wrong, criticizing the leadership that has been there before you're there. You want to be able to make sure that they know that you are a part of it and and you're tied into that. And then as you do that, I think that's the wisdom, Pastor C, and and becoming the the own ramp so that way now you can be able to do the things within the ministry and not with ministry, because now that's solid. What are you hearing in this past C? Because I want to be able to get them in some practical wisdom in different areas, like you just gave on the pastoral side.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 27:46

Well, I I think one of the things with that also is you were talking about getting on with your pastor. And that way, you can get wisdom because you want to be able to flow in that house. But I I see leaving that house going somewhere else to flow as well. That it takes wisdom when I'm going into another house outside of the house that I'm under. Can you give them some wisdom in that area? So so one of the things that that first one, I think wisdom in doing, I need to know the house, the house that I'm going into. So normally you want to pray over that house. You want to spend some time listening to the man or the woman of God of that house so you can get a feel for the house. Because you're up the wisdom of it is when you go in that house, your job is to connect the vision of that house to the people in the house. Oh, you ain't going in there to try to re-establish no vision. What's the vision of this house? I want that same flow. I'm here just to encourage the people to connect with their pastor, whoever that might be, connect with the ones in the house. So that's wisdom. So you need to look in the house.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 29:04

I thought they're supposed to just go and give the word that God gave them for that house.

Adjust, Appreciate, Advance Your Team

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 29:09

But see, the wisdom of that is now you walk away, not implicit in the house, not implicit in the house. True, that's why I say you spend time in prayer, but what your prayers is Lord, you know this house. What is it for me to speak in the house that's gonna connect me to the house? Because God ain't gonna bring you in and give you a word, it's gonna divide the house. And you have to always recognize as I go in anywhere, it's never about me, it's all about him, but yet at the same time, I want to make sure I make a lasting empire because I connected the people in that house to the vision of that house.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 29:51

Let's give some other wisdom, Pastor C and you can chime in too as you see what I'm hearing in this. One couple things I have that we give wisdom is this. And I want you to ask answer this question. Then I'm gonna make a statement. I want you to answer this question. This is the question I want you to answer is how do ministers, what's the balance in? I watch the pastor on YouTube, so I need to look at their YouTube, look at their Facebook, see what they're speaking, how does the flow of the house, how do they do things, their protocol, how do they flow? And then you say I need to pray, give the word from God, but asking God to help me bring something that a compliment, not contradict what they're doing. This is a wisdom I think Mr. I want you to give the balance of how do they do that, but still be true to who they are in terms of I'm a preacher, that house is more teaching, but they brought me in. I'm more of a uh a preacher, you know. I but it seemed like that. How do I kind of navigate? You know, I'm prophetic, they may not be as b. Let's give some wisdom in that. And this is the thing I want to help the ministers, I believe, I help them. Don't go by what you see on social media. Social media has been one of the best things for ministers. I mean, one of the best things, it's leveled the playing field that we can be now. We're on YouTube, we're live, we're on Spotify, we're on iTunes, Pastor C. It's it's going like it's many, it's been such a blessing, Pastor C. And when it would normally cost thousands of dollars with the technology, right? That we could do that, but it's been a problem because now ministers can see examples of people doing things that seem to be successful, but it's not for them to do. Meaning that you see the profit that you enjoy, and it seemed like they're just cutting up things, like that, you know, like they're bringing a hard word and they're saying things like, Y'all don't, y'all not gonna like it, but I'm gonna tell you anyway. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, I ain't gonna get no amens. And and it seemed like they're popular, they have thousands of people, they're on major platforms, so they feel like I can do that, see, because you know, they just cutting it and they being hard, and they're and they're like they're tearing down the house, and they're saying it, it ain't all about that, so they can see that as a pattern, and I think that's wisdom is realize you can't do what you see other people do necessarily. That may not be why because you don't have the gifting they have, the anointing they have, the credibility they have, the platform they have, and so they can maybe get away with things at their stage that you cannot get away with, and so you can mess up some things and never get to that place. So that's the wisdom I want to give. Don't just go by how you see other people preach and it seems to be successful and feel like well, yeah, they don't just want the truth. No, there's a credibility thing. It's like a parent can say things that other people can't say to a child. So I want to give that wisdom now. What you want to chime in on that, seeing keeping that balance and helping it.

Value Relationships Without Losing Yourself

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 32:46

Yeah, the the question you asked about I'm I'm going in, I'm a I'm I'm a preacher, and this is more of a teaching house. That you know, so so so first of all, the first wisdom in that is the invite. The prophet that's doing the pastor who are giving the invite. Come on, making sure they understand how you flow, what you are understanding where the invite is coming from. So I want to I want to respect that house. But so I'm if I'm coming to your house, I know how your house flows. But because of me and your relationship, I I know what's there. I can still flow in myself and yet still respect your house. Because when I go in once again, it's about me really making an empire that's unto the Lord, not me trying to show off what I'm good at. So the wisdom in that, you do want to talk to the ones that's inviting you. They know you. Okay, this is how I flow. What is it you're looking for? What is it that you're asking? Now, if you're not able to produce what they're asking, you the wisdom of that is to make that known. Because if you get out of your environment, you're gonna make a mess of that. You're gonna make a mess of it. That's not me. I don't flow in that. I might not be the one. So the other wisdom is you don't say yes to every call. Just because it's a call, you don't say yes to it whenever someone just calls. So you want to make sure that would that would be one of the first things I would say. You got to know the house and then connect with the person that's inviting you to the house. Now, with that, what you got to be careful? Sometimes it's not pastor that's doing the inviting nowadays. Sometimes it's somebody else that's doing the inviting. And you're going in, but it ain't their house per se. You know what I mean when I say their house? They're not the one, they're not the placewoman, or man of God in that house. You want to make sure that if that's the case, what is it that the pastor is asking of you when you go up in that house? Got to be very proudful. And then you want to walk in in you, be yourself, but do I fit here? So that's why I I don't believe in. I think wisdom is not to say yes to every call. You you you really shouldn't say yes to every call. You got to make sure you know this is where you're supposed to be, you have an understanding in the house before you go. That's the wisdom of that. Then you can go ahead and flow in the house.

Silence, Speaking Up, And Reading The Room

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 35:33

Amen. And I I want to add too, I think another wisdom that's great, Pastor C, is wisdom is to learn how to dribble with both hands. You will always have a dominant hand, but the wisdom is not to be a one-sided minister. That's all I do is prophesy. Learn how to maybe that might be your dominant, but learn it how to teach. All I do is teach. That might be a dominant gift. Learn the principles of exhortation. All I do is this. So I think as the wisdom is to always be true to you, but to learn to expand your ministry game. And I know that's that I'm saying not a requirement, see, not a have to, a must to, but it's a wisdom thing. Because now you can you can flow in different environments and still be you, but be comfortable and not have to try to be somewhere. I'm not saying you got to learn how to uh uh whoop. That might not be your style. Learn how to whoop. No, that might not that might not be you, but you want to still learn how different principles of preaching and teaching. For some of you, you have a voice, you can sing, you can carry a good note. Don't mean you don't be somewhere you're not, but that's something you maybe could add to your game because you have the the the mechanics as a singer to have a hum. It's like, well, I don't like that. Not saying, but learn to appreciate that's the wisdom, the different expressions of uh of of revelation, the different expressions of ministry, because the more you could do that, the the more flow pastor. See, I don't who but if if I had a hum, if I had a voice, you know, man, I'll sing more, I'll do, but I don't have it. But so I think that's the wisdom that ministers need to lead because what the wisdom is don't be only locked into the dimension of the pastor that you sit under. That's good because if not, you're not careful, you'll see ministry and successful ministry only in terms of the pastor and the predominant leader that you're on, and won't have an appreciation for the other nuances of ministry. And just because that's your pastor, your leader, your apostle, you'll you might not have this, you will have the same spirit, but you might not have the same gift set in ministry, and you'll put yourself in the box. Here's another wisdom: don't just try to pattern yourself after the leader that you have in the house of your house. You want to catch their spirit, you want to have their teaching and their the similar doctrine, the similar spirit of faith, but you might not have the same delivery. He might be slow and methodical, you might be pow. He might be pow, you might be slow and methodical. I think that's the wisdom as well, Pastor C Famin.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 38:21

It is because the wisdom of it all, Don, you got to stay within you. Stay within you, within yourself. Because, like I say, you make a mess of stuff when you get out of within yourself. So, which what I'm hearing from you is the wisdom is you have to sharpen your tools and have more than one tool in your toolbox. That's what I'm hearing from you. That you got to have more than one tool in your toolbox. You hinder yourself when you only have one tool in your toolbox. Okay? So the other tools there, one of the worst things to do is take the screwdriver and try to make it all of a sudden now function as plows. You can't do that. So you want to carry more than one tool there in your box. And so that's the wisdom that you're sharing now. That's like the wisdom of that would be to say, hey, I need to sharpen this, I need to know how to dribble with both hands. Might not be my dumb one, but I can use both if that's what the case might be. And I think that's the wisdom of that. And you got to stay within yourself. Even within yourself. I always tell people the worst thing you can be trying to be like somebody else, and you're a bad copy. You're a bad copy, you're blurry, you're a bad. That's not a good copy because you won't be your original self, who you is.

Don’t Fly Solo: Build Wise Connections

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 39:47

Now, Pastor C, can you deal with this? Let's give some wisdom now because I think wisdom has to be taught, has to be caught. What's some wisdom? Because I think Aries, I think we need wisdom concerning people. So let's let's kind of let's kind of walk the dog a little bit. What wisdom left would you give to maybe the ministers in terms of uh dealing with uh with with people? Whether I kind of dealt with the pastor that maybe might be working with other ministers, maybe maybe working with uh within your church, or when you go outside the church, or just for pastors in general, what wisdom that would you uh would you give? And what I want to do as well, I want to encourage you because you you give a lot of wisdom. I won't be able to get into all this now. You wrote a book that that talked about the seven dimensions of leadership. Uh, and you you uh we want to encourage you that you can deal with the seven uh dimensions of leadership by uh that that pastor see you wrote this book. I want to encourage the the the uh the leaders to avail themselves to that book because you got many wisdom. You can get it on Amazon. You see a QR code on your screen if you're watching on YouTube. We'll put in the show notes you can look on Amazon. Um, it's seven dimensional leadership by uh uh Pastor Clinton Cornelius. But you scan that QR code, you'll be able to get that, and you kind of deal with a lot of wisdom. So much you can get into, but you deal with a lot of leadership wisdom in that. So scan that code, you can get access to uh to that book, but kind of talk about maybe some wisdom that we can help the ministers dealing with with people in general.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 41:24

First of all, I think one of the wisdom things is to wisdom will be to recognize that everybody's not the same. Recognize that people are different, people have different personalities, different ways. So, wisdom is, I believe, fully is to learn people. Take the time to learn people. I think that's why important. That we do well when we learn people, and then in learning them, be willing to accept them for who they are. This is who it is. So, why do that surprise you that they did that? This is who they are. So the wisdom in that is because I know this is how he functioned, this is how she functioned. I the wisdom in that now I'm learning them so I can know how to deal with them. Because at the end of the day, I'm trying to work with them.

Dealing With Problems One Bite At A Time

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 42:19

So we're saying, don't, don't, don't, don't lose your thought, please don't. Okay, if you got a job, because I gotta say this because you just dropped some gold, and I don't want to just go past that because I failed in previous seasons of my ministry because of that, and I don't want them to miss it. One learning the personalities, you I've studied personality, so you got to learn people different personality types, but now beyond learning personality, learning people individually, their shortcomings, their their ways. Now, this is the key that you said. So now you learn that's how they are, so that you can adjust. What do you mean? So that you can how many pastors, how many auxiliary leaders they bang their head on the table, Pastor C, and they're frustrated with people because they say people are not uh dependable, people don't keep their word, people don't show up, people don't follow through, people all and and they're frustrated. Leaders, I've been there before. They're frustrated, they fall out with people, they get snappy with people, they they say off the cuff stuff with people, you know, like oh, just don't worry about it, just just just sit it down. It's okay, don't worry about it. I got it. They call and tell them I can't, I'm not gonna be there. My baby said, I don't worry about it. I got it. Why? Because they're frustrated because of people instead of learning like that's who they are, and you adjust. It's not that we lower our standard. This is the wisdom. And what I found that wisdom is, Pastor C, is finding a sweet spot between the tensions in life. See, there's always tensions in life and leadership. Wisdom is finding a sweet spot, meaning that one place says, Well, I'm not gonna lower my standard. Then the other thing says, like, well, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna break and kill relationships. You got to find that sweet spot by holding people accountable, but then also being graceful and how you deal with them. You got to find that sweet spot, and that's where wisdom comes in. That's why you need books that I'm telling you with the the leadership book and things like this, because what happened is instead of them adjusting, they're angry and they're upset the way people are, instead of them learning to adjust and how to deal with them according to accordingly. Does that make sense, Bass C?

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 44:42

That makes plenty of sense. That's that's plenty of sense, and that's what I'm meaning about you getting the norm, and as you use the word adjust to them, you you adjust, and then the other thing that's kind of hard sometimes. I give you another A. Not only do you need to adjust, but you need to appreciate, just appreciate them for who they are. This is the way they are. So because I showed I make the adjustments and then I appreciate you. Now I feel like we can advance you. I can move with you because I know how you operate. I know, I know oftentimes use analysis, me and you talk about is sports a lot. I recognize you are a lineman. You are a lineman, you're heavy set, you're a lineman. You you you cannot move as far. So you you're not really, you're not being timed on what you do in the four in the faulty because you ain't really running, you ain't got to run it in 40 yards. No, you you're not being timed in that because you're not a receiver, you're a lineman. So this what I know this, I know how you operate. So I'm not trying to ask you to do something that's outside of who you are and what you're built to do. We got to realize we're all built different down. So I got to get in there and get to know you, make those adjustments, and then appreciate you so I can advance you to where you can fit at. And that's all of us got to fit.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 46:08

Pastors are doing that, auxiliary leaders, ministry leaders in church are trying to get people to operate in things outside of what they can do. That's correct. And then what I've seen, it I've seen it, they get frustrated with people because instead of you, this is what I had to learn to do, Pastor C and I'm telling you, it this stuff works. You have to learn to appreciate whatever people bring to the table. Maybe you maybe listen, you believe they can bring more, you need them to bring more, you ask them to bring more, they're capable of bringing more. They might even said that they were gonna bring more, but the bottom line, the end of the day, they did not bring more. You encourage them to bring more, you you you coach them to bring more, you prayed them to bring more. But if they don't, then what you have to do accept and appreciate, not tolerate. Uh-huh. Right. Not tolerate. Why? Because if you don't appreciate what you'll do, you won't celebrate them, you won't properly relate to them, you won't feel them, you won't want to fool with them, and what'll happen is they'll pick that up from you.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 47:21

Yes, and now they won't know you.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 47:26

It'll come through your pores, it'll come through your words. Why? Because yeah, you really uh why? Because you don't, so you have to learn to appreciate whatever people bring to the table, even if you think they can bring more. I'm telling this is a wisdom, Pastor C. This is a wisdom. Why now? Because you have an opportunity to salvage the relationship and get the most out of them that you can. Because if not, you can lose the whole thing.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 47:57

Yeah, true.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 47:58

I'm not speaking wisdom, C.

Avoid Copying “Successful” Models Blindly

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 48:00

Yep, that's wisdom. And I think the other wisdom of it too, Dow, is you got to recognize or you got to value relationships. Some people don't value relationships, so therefore, I don't appreciate what people bring because I don't value, because everything you just got to share, oftentimes you lose them. And some people have too it is what it is, so what? Let them go. But it's like you should value relationship. No, that's not wisdom in it. See, the wisdom is that I I value you and I value our relationship. I value that. So because of that, are you wisdom with how I deal with you? It's important to me. Now, now we're talking about, and I know we're talking about five, four ministry, but you said something earlier that I think kind of fit here when you were sharing if you don't get wisdom, you might have wisdom, you might be flying, um, have wings in one area, but your marriage should fall apart. I think that even fit here. That that if you do not appreciate even your marriage now, and you don't, if you don't value that relationship, what ended up taking place, it died on you. And now things become miserable. What I shared earlier about wisdom, wisdom brings peace, not chaotic. So stuff becomes chaotic because you don't value something. And I think that's what Jesus was talking about in the word. I think that was wisdom. I know it was wisdom that the Lord gave us in the word about when he used this scripture about don't throw your pearls out. And he, how he used the about the dolls. Because what when he talks about, he never called all the way through the word, he never called people like when we hear that with the woman. I'm dealing with that sunny, you know, you know, you don't take the bread off the table and give to the dog. Don't call he's not calling the doll, but he oftentimes used that to refer to the nature of something, you know, the nature of it. So the nature of a dog, a dog does not value stuff. They don't have the capability. What you mean by that, Pastor C, they can take, they can take a um a shoe of yours that work worth money, chew on that shoe, then they'll take a toy and chew on it because they don't know the value of the the two. They don't know the difference in value. So they can't appreciate it because they don't know it. We have to value relationships and not act like a dog. You got to use the ability to say the wisdom is I value you. So because I value you and because you mean something to me, I take time to get to know you, appreciate you. All that's so vile important. So I accept you. Same way it has to be in marriage, in any type, in relationships, and that's the wisdom of it, man. So the same come over in ministry, you have to value people.

Know Your State, City, And Capacity

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 50:54

Yeah, I think wisdom hit me in that sweet spot because I was taught earlier in my ministry foundation that my trust had to be in God, not in musicians, but in God, in the word of God, not in people. And so uh, if me and God, if I got God on my side, I'm never in the minority, I'm always in the majority. That's what I was taught. So my hope had to be in God, and I would not be held hostage by the faces of men, but see, but that that that's that's the word that's revelation. Because see that that but the see the wisdom, and so what that did is I had a mentality that do what you gotta do. You leave, go. Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you. You go, you don't we'll make it without you. One you know, one monkey ain't gonna stop the show, leave. I'm not I'm not afraid. You go, see, but that wasn't wisdom, see, because that wasn't that that it wasn't a balance in between. You should have your confidence that long as you got God in your auxiliary, in your ministry, you got it. You should not be held hostage by people and people that got money and people like that. Your confidence should be in God, but at the same time, that that's one extreme. It's just me and God got this thing. The other extreme is like, I need people, I need everybody that I can get. I need everybody, I need Lottie Dodd and I need everybody, everybody's needed, and the wisdom is in the sweet spot how you balance that in different situations where you well, you you let everybody know that you make everybody feel and know, not only feel that you really need them, you need everybody, but at the same time, you know in your heart that you can make it if they decide not to no longer walk with you. See, I think it takes wisdom, and I lack some of that wisdom. See, because I was in the early days of my ministry, I was more on the side of like gone, gone, gone. That wasn't wise because I I could have I strained some relationship that maybe I didn't have to strain, some needed to end, but some maybe could have ended prematurely, yeah, or they could have ended in the wrong note. Maybe they were supposed to end, but they could have ended a better way. They could have it could have been premature or could have been not even need to end. Why? Because of a lack of wisdom, yeah. And I think that's why we gotta always make sure we ask God, whatever we're doing, as you said, that we find the balance and we follow wisdom in situations.

Final Wisdom, Resources, And Closing

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 53:29

Yes, I think that's so valid, now, that that we do that in something that you emphasize is that sometimes we think just because we have the anointing, we don't need wisdom. Now, for me, I never ever start my day off with doubt because the scripture says, James, if any man like wisdom, let him ask of the Lord. I start every one of my days off praying for wisdom. I pray for it. Lord, give me wisdom that I might make wise decisions in all that I say and all that I do. Lord, help me to be wise as a husband, wise as a pastor, help me to be wise as a community leader. Any need I have, Lord, give me wisdom. I pray it, man, because he said, if any man like wisdom, let him ask of the Lord. So, word of God says that we get we get new mercy every morning. I feel like I need new wisdom every morning as well to get through my day because I got to make decisions every day. So I want to do it wisely. I want to be wise about it. I mean, you you talk about I I just ran into an incident where I it was an area where I had to correct, it had nothing to do with church, so that's why I said this work across the board. This was from something in the community that I'm a chairman of this particular board with one of the schools, and I I just meant the principal, and and it just didn't go well, but it ended up well. But when I when I left later on that night, last night, I sat in my chair, playing back in my head today, and I felt, Lord, drop them a spirit. You need to go share with her, let her know you y'all on the same team. Reassure her, loose her so she can do her job and let her know you're gonna cover the other part forward. And I felt like the wisdom of that was is that you all as a community is requiring some of the lady, but yet she feels like she handcuffed. How's she gonna do it? The wisdom is uncuffed her, and you'll get better work out of her, you'll get more out of her. So I went, we met this morning, spoke that to her, and the lady that I was there in tears saying, Thank you so much. I really thank you, Pastor C, for taking the time and reassuring me that you all have my bike. So, the wisdom of that. Now, I that relationship, that bond, the trust, to just watch this lady like a taller brick was lifted off. So, why would you take the time to even do that? See, because I felt like the wisdom in that I'm looking for her in the long run. At the end of the day, we want her to make an impact with the kids. How that's gonna happen if she feels like we got a handcuff. So the wisdom speak it to her. So that's just getting to know people, valuing people, and then speaking in their lives. I think all that requires that.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 56:29

And that's what we need, that's why we need platforms like this because wisdom has to be caught and taught, because it anointing a birth, but wisdom will build, you know, gift uh make room for you, but wisdom will keep you in the room, cause you excel in the room, yes, and go from the back of the room to the front of the room to end up owning the room.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 56:50

Can you talk about that down? The room, how wisdom sometimes you in the room, and you just gotta be solid in the room.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 56:58

Okay, I'll go ahead.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 57:00

Knowing that in the room, I'm glad you brought that up. That some places, like you say, your gifting favor might get you in a room, but wisdom teach you how to move in the room, yeah. And sometimes the move might be nothing, you just solid in the room. I'm in this room to gain from it. I you know, I don't have to be the outspoken one in the room. That's wisdom there.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 57:26

You see, and this is the thing, the sweet spot. Sometimes that is the wisdom. Remember, you said in the onset wisdom is the ability to know when to do it and at the right timing to do it. Yes, Ecclesiastes 3.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 57:44

That's a time that's season time. That's right.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 57:46

Think about it. It is both Jesus was full of he grew in grace and truth, be wise as the serpent, but homeless as a dove. So when to apply the truth, sometimes you you my point is sometimes that's wisdom that when you in the room, be silent, learn, pick up, hear, observe. But then sometimes wisdom is the in the room is to let your voice be heard. How do I know the difference? See, wisdom, wisdom. How do I know what why? Because sometimes see you it takes a Peter to stand up and say, This is that which the prophet Joe prophesied. That's correct. Sometimes this is your moment. There's a vacuum, there's a void, and then I always say that times call for leaders to emerge. Sometimes it's your it's your time, it's your season to speak. How do I know when to sit back? Wisdom. How do I get wisdom? Being around wise men, in the book that I told you, right? Uh avail yourself to different platforms, you know, where you can where you can learn, being in room, learning, seeking wisdom, praying for wisdom. Why? And asking God, because sometimes you need to speak, and sometimes you don't need to speak, and you've got to always get God to give you uh the the wisdom too, because sometimes it's in your silence you speak via. But then sometimes it's something that you say that can change things, and sometimes it's knowing how much to say, yeah, wisdom to know when to be when to be when to stop talking too. There you go. I think that's why we have to we have to find wisdom. I want to say this dealing with the people for ministers. We almost had a time, we got to get ready to close this podcast down. But listen, Pastor C, some ministers, because they ain't had wisdom with people, and I want you to deal with wisdom with problems. We're gonna get ready to close because they ain't found a sweet spot, they fly solo because they realize that eagles fly alone. Many strong prophets, pastors, apostles, elders have no relationship with other outside people. Why? I'm good, I don't need people, I'm an eagle, I don't I'm good by myself, and that's not wisdom. Why? Because relationships, I was telling some people the other day, I'm so glad that that that I reached out and I gave a dot white a cassette 20 some years over 20 some years ago, maybe 26 years ago, and through that we met you. What if I didn't have the people skills or the wisdom to know to sew into other people and not charge her and say, hey, you want to buy some materials? It's our bookstore, buy some stuff. Wisdom say that your guests sew into your guests, and because of that, our relationship formed. My point is sometimes wisdom is a wisdom. I want to give ministers, some of you need more people connections. You you you go into rooms, I I've introduced you to people, Pastor C, and because they didn't have wisdom, they they they see they came off as ultra deep. I gotta preach, don't halfway want to talk to you, don't halfway want to interact with you. Not that their heart was wrong, but but not knowing wisdom is that when you meet people, you you you're humble, you you be gracious to people. You never know who you're talking to. You you never know who you're gonna need, you never know what door somebody can open. Well, somebody say, Well, I don't want no door. See, that ain't wise. I want every door that God got for me.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 1:01:19

There you go. There you go.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:01:21

You that's wisdom to say, I'm not looking for a door, but I want every door that God got. So many times it's wisdom and not you don't build relationships, you go in the room, you just be quiet. And see, that wasn't wise. See, that's why, because sometimes in some room, you're sitting there, you you looking acting like you're humble, but you come over like you're stuck up, like you're too good for the room. Yes, you ain't you ain't talking to nobody, you ain't somebody come and ask your name, you say your name, and you just sit there. That's not wise. So, um, so I think there's a wisdom that ministers need that need to build more relationships, but there's a balance, the sweet spot. You don't need a thousand friends, that's true, because now you don't have one true friend. You spread two things, you have no all your relationships are superficial, all your stuff is that. So that's a oh Lord, help us till we need wisdom. Oh god, we need wisdom to find the sweet spot for our lives. Yes, so before we close, Pastor C, what would you give some wisdom and anything else on your heart, man? With that time runs so fast here, yeah. Uh uh, on that dealing with wisdom, give the ministers and pastor some wisdom concern in dealing with problems. Because you said that's how we get the wing right. That first wing is all about this wisdom, right?

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 1:02:42

Walking in wisdom. Now, with problems, I think the the one of the things I would say for giving you something to wisdom about problems, is that we all have to deal with them. We all that's one of the things, uh, that's simple. But I think sometimes the wisdom in that is we tend to think we're exempt sometimes. So recognize that we all, and I'm back to what you said earlier about social media. If you ain't careful, you get all bogged up and caught in that. And it seems like it looks so good on that sign. Man, they got it all together. But the wisdom in that is to understand that we all have to deal with problems. That's the wisdom in that that you have to. And I think also the wisdom in it, because we all have to deal with them, that don't sweep them under the road and act like it's not there. They do not go away just because you ignore them. Okay. The wisdom of it also, I would say, is pray as you're praying, and I think it's wisdom to something you always would say with to me, I know you don't share before, not necessarily the problem, but that's what I'm hearing now, is that some problems are too big now to try to solve in one bite. You to always ask me about the alpha, you know, what it takes to eat an alpha one bite at a time. You got to be wise enough to know problems that's too big to try to solve at one moment. And I teach my leaders here also that don't get caught up in almost like going to the car dealership and say this deal is just for today. And if you don't take the deal now, you're gonna lose out on the deal. My point is don't attack every problem when under certain circumstances when you might not be calm, you might not be calm right now, you might not be in a good place right now because you're in your emotions, you and your feelings that might be mean something. Hey, let's table this and we come and bite to it. Not that we keep it under the road. It's just that the timing of trying to deal with it is not now. We often was taught that in raising our children. When you first initially do something and they come in the room, they ain't a good time to whoop them, as we would say, or to spank them because you're doing a lot of anger out of your emotions. Calm yourself and then deal with it. I think that's so vital also when I'm dealing with problems. And I wisdom and the other wisdom, I think you just spoke to it about having others in your life to help you in the midst of it. The problem was the wall was torn down. But what happened? Nirma got others to help him to solve the problem. He had the strategy, but he had somebody else helped him to actually bring the strategy into reality. So I think with problems, it's good also to have others with you. Bounce things off of them, ask others, especially someone that has maybe a common problem, that thing you're going through, they may have been through it. You want others there for you. So that's why building relationships are important. So those some of the things I would say are some wisdom to dealing with problems.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:06:14

I think go, Pastor C. How many? Uh, I don't want to just rush right past it, but how much help we've been to one another because we had somebody to bounce ideas off of. See that see you feel you. This is the this is the wisdom in it. I'm capable, I got it, I know the Lord, but wisdom always say, you know what? I got a man of God, I got somebody in my life that can give me another view, and I might go with that view, I might not, but let me let me bounce off to see if I got a blind spot. Let me run this by you. It's kind of like proofreading stuff. Like, can you proofread it? I'm I'm I'm I'm not planning on rewriting it, but but I want to proofread it. Why? Because I might have missed something that's crucial, and so that's the wisdom, like you said, to have people in your life that to help you, and and so that's why we want to in this podcast, ministers to be able to fly and get that leadership wisdom. That's why I would encourage you to be sure that they they avail yourself to the book. You scan that QR code from Pastor C's book, it'll take you to Amazon, you'll be able to get his book. And also, I wrote one dealing with igniting the leader. You can also scan, scan this QR code, and it'll take you to my link as well. And also, you'll see a code on there that's just a ministry link with all other materials. You scan it, you can go back through the platform, you'll be able to hit those different links, and it'll be able to help you as well. And one to subscribe to the podcast as well. I think that's why we need to be in a leadership environment, uh uh wisdom and leadership environment. Because how I get wisdom leadership, Pastor C, I listen to leadership teachings, and I'll be around leader. That's I get my leadership wisdom, and I need that wing. Uh, because if I'm going to if I'm going to not just birth but build, I need to fly. And many people are crawling and don't even know it because they haven't been employing wisdom, they've just been having revelation, prophetic words, insights, rhema word, and logos. But the wisdom is the principal thing, and it is caught and it is taught when you're around uh wise uh people. And so thank you for sharing that and dealing uh with problems because problems are like fire, and wisdom is like water, you will you will put it out or you'll make it worse. And sometimes in the early days of my ministry, see some fires I'm I I made worse. Man, I came out get upset and angry. I'm dealing with this. Man, I'm I'm dealing with this. I'm turning over tables. Why? Because sometimes it's not wise to always you can't not that I do this, but one wisdom I seen people do, they try to do not only in terms of preaching, a mistake that they do as leaders, and you might have one pastine. We'll we'll get ready to try to end this. Is that some leaders they make a mistake by trying to run their ministry auxiliary within their church or their church, if they're pastors, they try to, or even the marriages, based on how they see other successful leaders do it. The key point is successful, Pastor C. If this person is successful in their ministry, and this is the way they run their ministry, this is how they deal with their people, how they deal with their staff. This is how this praise team that praise team is great, and I like that praise team. So this is how they run theirs. So evidently, that's a good model for me to follow because they got the results that I want. No, that's not wisdom. Why? Because you might not have the same personality that they have, so you can't pull off. You might not have the same people under you like they got under them. You might not have the credibility that they have. See, some jobs can have people that work for them, and these people are making six figures on this job, and on those jobs, and these people making six figures, the bosses and the supervisors may be able to deal with the workers in a certain way, may be able to say some certain things to them a certain way. Why? Because that the value of the job that it holds, that people feel like, man, we tolerate this, we put up with this because this is a six-figure job, you know, and I take it with it. Your job might be paying them 20,000, and they ain't putting up with that. So, my you you cannot pattern yourself after what you see others, quote unquote, successful leaders. Because just because they're doing it, it doesn't mean that they're doing it right, and sometimes people will tolerate stuff that they might not tolerate with you. I'm just telling you wisdom because you can go shipwreck by trying to follow somebody else's pattern as a leader when that wasn't the pattern for you. Well, what pattern do I follow? Wisdom is the pattern, and any man like wisdom, let him ask of God. Yes, yes, she's searching. She, you gotta look, man. I'm looking for wisdom. See, that's why all of my life I've been asking questions to the point it'll get on people's nerves. I didn't know it, but see, I've been searching out wisdom. Any mistake that you see you want to bring out, and anything you want to say before we close that'll be able to help these ministers. I've enjoyed did this help me, and this is what praise God.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 1:11:47

Same here, same here, Dom. Same here, man. I think one of the things that I I would point out that that that is a mistake is as you were just that that you were just um sharing. I I I look at that for myself, and I felt like one of the mistakes is trying to be like somebody else, like you were just sharing. And a problem, uh mistake is not knowing, not knowing your state. So, oh what you mean not knowing my state? Everybody knows what state of no. Some people, you you for example, when I state that I I know the state of my city, I know the size of my city, city. So wisdom is, you know, I live in a city with only 6,000 people. That's kind of really the babies and all. So I know that it's certain things here that don't work that might work in Lawton. And so it's a mistake for me. That I might work in Atlanta, that I see that and I try to make that happen. I become discouraged because it didn't happen. That's a mistake because you did not know your state. Know your state. When we're in the state of the union, know your state, know who you are, how you can function, what's why the wise thing is, the wisdom is this. Do this thing here. Do this event, will this event work here? Just because it worked there, don't mean it worked where you at. Know your state. That's so vital important. And I think within ministry, whoever you're surrounding yourself with, know your team. Know who it is you're running with, know the state of that. So you won't be asking something that's that cannot be accomplished, or something that's gonna put you, send you under because you're trying to do something that's way above that. Know your state, the state of you.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:13:54

Wow, I love that. I love that. You know, know the state of the flock, know your state, know where you're at, where you are, who you with. That's wisdom. And I think this echoing me now is giving me just a having this conversation. We can think even in terms of more of just that wisdom, that that's a master key. It's the principal thing, it's the foundation, it's the it's the beginning, it's it's paramount. But all you're getting, go get get wisdom, and that's what I want to share. My final words, and you can share if you have to young ministers or seasoned pastors. I would say to young men or seasoned leaders, young ministers of those seasoned as soon as you can start developing your leadership wing, get wet wisdom to lead, seek wisdom so that you can lead. Not just wisdom, wisdom for the pulpit, wisdom in that, but wisdom to lead because that's what's gonna cause you to soar. Yes, wisdom in your gift, but wisdom to lead, start that journey, and that's why it's not about just trying to promote uh Pastor C's uh uh book, but really it is to help you you scan that QR code and that and it help you. Also, my book with the leader within you. I mean igniting the leader in you. It's not about just trying to get your book, but trying to give you materials so that practical from people that are practitioners that are doing it to help you in your leadership development. So that would be my word to ministers, your ministers develop that that that's kept me so far as Pastor C. And I began on my leadership journey and try to develop my leadership uh wing. And to those that's been in it a while, I want you you you you continue to develop even more wisdom and and leading. Continue to help your leading because some of you you ain't you ain't you're not you you're not pouring out, you're not developing, you're not, you're not producing, all you're doing is preaching because you don't have the wisdom. All you do is preach, you ain't developing, you know, you ain't teaching. So that's why I encourage you. You scan the QR code, you find a link for our uh platform, get involved in our Bible college, our Bible school, a different trainings, because there's some things that you need to be developing so that you can do more than preaching, but it takes wisdom to be able to get out the river that's in you besides just your preaching and teaching. You need that development, and you can find many free resources as well in our uh link tree. Any final words you have for ministers or leaders uh uh uh today, Pastor Cena. I'm gonna say this, man. I I enjoyed this time with you, man. This has been awesome.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 1:16:33

Always enjoyed myself, Donna. Always, man. You have been truly a blessing to me as well. I would just say wisdom battles because as leaders, it's it's when you have that wisdom, you flow in that wisdom, it it causes leadership to be more effective.

unknown 1:16:52

Uh huh.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 1:16:52

You become more effective. Wisdom does that, and then I would say, without wisdom, leadership is dangerous. If you're trying to leave without wisdom, that's dangerous. With wisdom, you're very effective. Without wisdom, it's dangerous. So that's what I would leave with you. That's why it's important. You need to form those wings, that W wisdom.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:17:20

Wow. And that's how you can move from crawling to flying to be a butterfly. And many people that we see flying, Pastor C, we thought they were flying because of just the anointing, or signs and wonders that they have, or their accuracy in the prophetic, or the range that they have in their singing, or their gift and their talents. But when you take a closer look, you find out that if any minister, ministry, pastor, evangelist is truly flying high, behind all of that is a level of leadership. You don't pull off the conference by just good preaching. Leadership, the organization, the planning, the structure. See, that's what we got. That's the missing link, Pastor C. You just said it is wisdom. How many ministers are seeking wisdom? All of them seeking anointing and gifting, but wisdom that's the principal thing. Look forward to our next time together. We're gonna continue to help you with wings.

Dr. Clinton Cornelius 1:18:40

I can't wait to see what this eye is and what we can digest with this eye, man. Yeah, we're gonna do with the eye in the wing.

Dr. Robert F. Dowell 1:18:47

Leaders got we. We got lead. Do you got wings? Y'all got some wings? Y'all got wings? I'm not talking about no buffalo wing, no chicken wing, no turkey wing. I'm talking about a leadership wing that caused me to go from crawling to flying. And that's our prayer for you, minister. Until our next time together on Fivefold Food. This has been Dr. Canias, and I've been your host, Dr. Robert F. Dow. We pray that you have eaten well today to help you excel. Until our next time together, be sure you check us out on our various platforms. Subscribe to the podcast, look in the show notes, and we'll see you on our next time together.