Lead Without Leaving People Behind: The Leadership Skill No One Talks About

What if the missing piece in your leadership isn’t a sharper plan, but a softer heart? We dig into the real work of guiding teams with a clear compass and true compassion—so your vision moves forward without leaving people behind. This conversation unpacks the “caterpillar to butterfly” journey for ministers and ministry teams, showing how to shift from raw effort to sustainable excellence by navigating with others in mind.

We start by exposing the hidden cost of being only goal-driven: frustration, stalled execution, and quiet disengagement. Then we introduce a simple, powerful balance—direction plus connection. Your compass clarifies where you’re going; your compassion builds the trust that gets you there. From there, we get practical: slow down to check on those carrying the load, ask before assigning, and read seasons and capacities so your standards stay high while your methods stay humane. You’ll learn why caring doesn’t slow results—it sustains them.

You’ll also get two field-tested tools. EASE helps you lead people through Empathy, Adaptability, Sensitivity, and Engagement, turning pressure into progress. LAST helps you endure as a leader: Listen more deeply, Ask for honest feedback, Set your attention to body language and energy shifts, and Take time to stop and reset when morale dips. We also tackle generational dynamics, showing how to protect outcomes while adjusting practices for boomers, millennials, and Gen Z. And we address correction that heals rather than harms, guiding with grace so standards stand without wounding hearts.

If you’ve ever felt like you’re sprinting while your team is fading, this is your reset. Learn to hold a compass in your hand and a magnet in your heart, protect the “goose” that produces the golden eggs, and help your people ease on down the road toward real transformation. Subscribe, share this with a leader who needs it, and leave a review to tell us where you’ll adapt first.

Transcript

Welcome And Listener Invitation

Speaker 0:04

Welcome to the Fivefold Food Podcast, hosted by Dr. Robert F. Diles, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment they need to receive. The Word of God declares a fate of apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the faith. Prepared to receive revelation, wisdom, and insight.

Series Setup: Caterpillar To Butterfly

Wings Framework Recap And Focus On Navigate

Pastor Dowell 0:36

Praise the Lord. God bless each and every one of you. Welcome to another edition of the Fivefold Food Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Robert F. Down. I'm so delighted that you've chosen to be with us for another podcast. I don't know whether you're watching this on YouTube or social media or you're listening on iTunes or Spotify, wherever you may be viewing or watching this podcast. I ask that you would subscribe so that you can get the latest podcasts as they come out. If you're able to on the platform that you own, you should maybe see some show notes. If you're on Spotify, uh iTunes, we you should see some show notes. Uh, be sure you look in there. You can find other materials that we have that'll bless you, benefit you, free resources to help the five-fold minister. Be sure that you'll be so kind also to leave a five-star review, share it with another ministry friend or someone who you believe that'll benefit from it. In this podcast series, we want you to eat well so that you can excel in your five-fold ministry. I'm excited again. I'm glad that you're here with us. I want to get right into the day's podcast, and today, again, I'll be joined in my podcast by my good friend of this show, Dr. C P Cornelius. Welcome, Pastor Canelius, uh, to another edition of the Five Food, uh, Five Fold Food Podcast. How are we doing, Pastor C? Praise God, man. I'm doing well. What about yourself, man? Yeah, I'm I'm doing well. I'm glad that we're here uh to do this live recording. We hadn't been able to really uh share and talk about what we're going to talk about. We have a subject in mind we're gonna talk about so we're looking forward to cooking up uh this word uh live on today. And again, for those that are not familiar with you should know Pastor C. Uh, he comes from the great state of Florida, he's been pastoring over 30 years, uh, instrumental in leadership, not only in the local church, but in his community as well. So he brings a depth of wisdom and and just knowledge uh to this podcast. And I'm always glad to have my sidekick uh with me on on these podcasts. I want to get right into our podcast uh for today, Pastor C, because time uh flies uh as we're together on these uh podcasts, and so I want to get right into our discussion for those that have been tracking with us. If you haven't go back and look on YouTube or on um on Spotify or iTunes, you can see wherever you're getting this podcast because we're today we're in in part three of a series that we've been dealing with. And so if you missed the first couple of episodes, you want to go back also here then. But we're in part three where we've been uh teaching on uh uh the subject uh that that God inspired you, and we've been just breaking this thing down and looking at it how to go from uh caterpillar to butterfly leadership, how to go from that caterpillar that crawl to that beautiful uh butterfly that flies. God wants us to be butterfly leaders, to be that butterfly leader, that's just not in an ugly place, but they're not in a beautiful place, yes, not in a low place, but we're teaching them how to see how to get to a high place, how not to stay in their their their now place in their birthing place, but how to get to their next place in their God-ordained destined place. You were birthed as a caterpillar, but you weren't birthed to stay there. That was your now place. You've been sharing, we've been sharing precelles points and principles to help them go from that now place, that next place, that birthplace, because God don't want you just birthed into your ministry, He wants you to be going to your destiny, and that's what we've been sharing. And what we dealt with the key that you so eloquently shared with us on the onset to we got to get wings, wings, and when you begin to tell me about that, I like man, we got a podcast about that helping leaders get their wings. I want wings, I got wings, any leader got wings. I want some leadership wings, I want some wings in this place. That's what we need. In some places, we need some wings, not chicken wings, not turkey wings, but we need some leadership wings. And you shared with us, and we talked about uh the W, how we need wisdom, then we dealt with the I, how we had to inspire others. How you talked about inspiring others to rise, but we want to inspire others that we dealt with, and now we're at the end. And the end is that you shared, Pastor C, that we have to navigate with others in mind. So let's teach, let's learn. Uh, I I'm I got my pen, I'm ready to learn as well as we cook up this message. How do we uh get these wings? Talk to us about navigating with others in mind, you know. Let's let's kind of like we always like to frame it. Why do you believe maybe this conversation is important? You know, uh, maybe you might want to talk about you know, uh, why we need to do this. Why is this conversation navigating with others in mind? Help us with that, Pastor C. What gave you that?

People First: Ministry Is People Business

Pastor Cornelius 5:52

I think that's important. First of all, as we deal with what's navigating, you're moving to a particular direction, okay? You're moving, it requires movement. So as a leader, you're moving, all right? As a leader in that way, so with that in mind, first of all, I realize I'm not in this by myself. You got to realize that we're in this together, so the goal become is where we want it to be, all of us in this thing together. It's a we, it's a us, it's not just a me. So, with that in mind, since it's us in this thing, now I might be and I am the leader, but I got a leaders. So, as the leaders, I as the leader, I recognize that I have others that leaders, but they're not the leader, okay? A leaders, so I'm leading them, and in leading them, I'm moving. So, in that though, they're people, they're people. I want them to follow. As I you made a statement last time we were together about what might swell say in regards to every leader basically share followers, right? Are you just taking steps? So, in moving, I got followers. So when I when I talk about navigating, I'm moving with them in mind, that means I'm considerate. I'm considerate, I'm recognizing, I'm looking, we're in this together, and I become considerate. Number one, I recognize I cannot do this by myself, and so therefore, I need to consider I consider people, so I need to move with awareness, with awareness of who I'm dealing with, and and what that oftentimes also calls intentionally. I need to intentionally be concerned, care about other people that I'm leading. So that's what I mean by navigating with others in mind.

Pastor Dowell 8:01

Good. I like that. So, what I'm hearing is the importance of it, you're saying because you're leading, but you're you're not in this journey, and what you're trying to do, you're not doing it alone.

Pastor Cornelius 8:13

There you go.

Compass And Compassion: Direction Plus Connection

Pastor Dowell 8:15

This is not tennis, it's not golf, it's not an individual sport. So, ministry, which all ministers are gonna be affected. Were you the senior leader? It's a church, a pastor, your elder minister, you have other people that you lead, you have auxiliaries that you lead, you have influence, so or your own ministry, your evangelist, apostle, you do conferences or whatever, even whatever you're doing, it's normally gonna take a team because you're not doing everything. So, unless you do everything, then you have a team. Yeah, might be a team of two, maybe team of three, but unless you do everything, I mean that's everything that means you're on a team. So, what I'm hearing, then if it's a team, then we're playing team ball, not golf, I like that, not tennis. So, if it's team ball, I'm not in this by myself, right? So, since I'm not in it by myself, I have to consider others, and I think that's so interesting, Pastor C. That's helping me, and I like that as I'm chewing on it, as you pick that down, I pick up what you're putting down. That that means then, since I'm not in it by myself, as I'm leading, I just can't think about myself. I think this is why we got to frame it because what some leaders do, they end up they navigate because navigating is just how we're moving, we're going from a point A to point B, is getting somewhere, right? Going somewhere, right? Maybe to a vision, to a dream, navigating across town. That's a movement, right? But it's a movement not just for you, but it's for others that follow you. Yeah, so if we're gonna have that movement for others to follow us, what I'm hearing, what I think is so important in this that movement to others to to follow us, then if you just navigate with your with just with they just navigate, but they don't navigate with others in mind, they're leading, they're navigating, man. They got a plan, they man, they got a vision, man. They they got a strategy, man, they got what God has told them. But what they're doing is they're that they're they're navigating, but I think while some leaders are having frustration, why this important many leaders are having frustration in the organization because they don't have the proper navigation. Let me say that again frustration in the organization because you don't have the proper navigation. No, no, no, Pastor Dow, I do. I know where I'm going, I got a map quest. Old school. Uh map, no, I got instructions, I got dot dot, I got a vision, I wrote it down. But what you're doing and you're executing it, you're not doing it with others in mind, you're doing it with only yourself in mind. And I think what we will add to this podcast today, Pastor C, that we have to not just navigate, but navigate with others in mind because you're just not in it by yourself, because you'll end up with frustration or stagnation. And the reason you have frustration because you're frustrated with the people, they ain't following me, they ain't doing what I'm asking them to do. They're not showing up the way that I need them to show up. They don't have the level of for my for my my conference, for my my missionary work, for my auxiliary as my church, whatever area I'm leading in, they're not showing up and they're not executing the way that I want. So you're frustrated. And the reason they're not because the way you're navigating, the turns you're making, uh, the twists you're making, the direction, you didn't do it with other people in mind, you only did it with yourself in mind, and I think that's why this is so important because we'll end up with that frustration, Pastor C. And it's a little subtle adjustment. Uh Solomon talked about take us to small foxes that destroy the vine. I wonder, leaders, are you leading and navigating with others in mind? What are you hearing in this, Pastor C?

Slow Down To Check On Your Team

Pastor Cornelius 12:18

But I I'm hearing it's also we're positive. What you just got through saying is what I'm hearing is that you could you you can have the conference plan, right? You cast the vision, right? You yeah, you got your team, you you got all that in place, and then let's go a little bit more. You can preach the word, you can cast that vision, you can organize the ministry, but you can't forget that ministry is people business, it's people business. Ministry is a people business, and because it's a people business, I have to become considerate of the people that I'm leading. Because, like you said earlier, it's a team. That's how I was hearing you, it's a team, and you were saying all the things you could do and how the first creation and all come because in your navigating, you don't forgot this people business, this people business, and because I'm in the people business, I want to make sure I stay considerate of the people when we lose touch with the people, we miss the whole point. If we lose touch, so what I'm trying to form with the people I'm leading down is a connection. How we gonna connect if I'm not considering them? There's no connection, there's a disconnect, and so now you brought up what was important, why this is important. You talk about frustration. For me, it now I can't get the people to trust. There's a lack of trust, they don't trust me because they don't think I care. So they have a hard time trusting me, and therefore I don't. That's why it's important that I navigate with people in mind, because what I want to do is I want them to be able to trust me, and I want to build relationships with them. That's that connection part, which is gonna help me navigate through what I'm going through or where I'm trying to get through. It's gonna help me to navigate it because I'm gonna get the overall, I'm gonna get that overall help from them now. And so with the vision, with the destiny, everything that you're doing, your conference, whatever it is you're doing, I can get the best out of them because they feel like, hey, we're connected and I can trust him and he cares about me.

Ask Before Assigning: Time And Season

Pastor Dowell 14:46

I think that's good. See, that's why we got to navigate with others in mind, because many times leaders are frustrated in whatever capacity they're leading on, because they don't feel like they're getting the best out of the people, they're not giving their best, and I know they'll they got they they have better potential, they they better that they're not showing up the way that they know that they need to show up, but we want leaders to see, and that's why these conversations are so good, uh, for for for leaders and ministers to hear, because the reason you're not getting the best because you're not leading the best. Because you said, like, if they don't trust you, they don't know you could have that connection with them, that means you're not navigating. All you all you are doing is I like to put it this way they don't have the connection because what they're they're leaders with a compass. Oh, see, when we think about navigation, we think of where we're going. Leaders need a compass. See, you leaders have to have a compass. The compass causes us to how we look forward, it helps us move forward. But leaders not only need a compass, but what you were saying, Bastard, see, they need compassion. That's help you look around you. See, the compass is for you to move forward, the compassion is so that you can lead with those around you. The the the compass is for direction, we leaders need direction, but the compassion is for connection, and so if you're a leader that only leads with direction, and without connection, then you then what'll happen is you'll end up with frustration because you won't never reach your destination, yeah. Because it you like a you like a a train with a with a with an engine, but you ain't got no attachments, and so that's why again, like you were saying, Bessie, they don't trust you, they don't buy into you, you don't get the best out of them. Why? Because you don't have a connection with them, and so that's why you gotta be a leader with a compass and and compassion, because we need to not only move forward, but we got to move with those around us. We only need to have a direction, but we need connection as well. When we have a compass, we'll be effective, we'll we'll be efficient, we'll be efficient, but when we have compassion, now we'll be effective. And when we're in effective, effective, and efficient, now we can be excellence and we can be triple e leaders. And so I think we got to make sure leaders, I want to ask you, leaders, you we're taking it for granted they need a compass. Yeah, you need to know where you're going. Yes, you need a vision or goal, but I believe we're talking with leaders that got vision and goal, right? But beyond that, if you're gonna uh navigate with others in mind now, the others in mind, you got to be able to connect and and and lead with that compassion, and I think that's how we lead with them in mind. We have to have uh that compassion uh with them, and I call this we need what's called a relational compass. You need not just uh a navigational compass, you need a relational uh compass because a real good leader, a real good leader, he has a compass, but not just a compass, but a relational compass in his hand, and now that causes him to have a magnet in his heart, and why because now he's not only have direction, but the great leaders not only have direction, they have connection because they lead with others in mind. And how how what are you in? How do we begin to do this then, Pastor C? How do we get this connection? How do we have this compassion? How do we navigate with leaders in mind? What what do you what do you say? What do you think now?

Pastor Cornelius 18:37

What one of the things is we have to make sure now, even in our navigate, we sometimes have to slow down enough to check on people who've helped me carry the load. So you say, how do I do this? Is I slow down and I check on people. So that's one of the things I'm checking on the ones that's helping me carry the load. Yeah, I don't get so bogged down and navigating that I don't slow down to make sure the load that the people that's helping me carry it, that they that they good.

Pastor Dowell 19:17

Let me say this: don't lose your thought. But are y'all picking up what the doctor just put down? See, they have to slow down, Pastor C, because we're talking to they're watching this podcast, they'll drive and listen to this audio podcast because they're high speed. Oh, good God designed. They'll go get us, that's why they're investing their time that then some of them in the shower, some of them on the way to work, some of them working out. Because they're high speed. What's the point, Pastor Dow? Because they're high speed, they got so much going on, Pastor C. They're juggling. Um we're talking to movers and shakers. That's why they're on this podcast, that's why they're watching this. They're juggling a lot. And because of that. There has to be a greater sensitivity to slow down. That's why that's why that's genius in what you said. Because there's so much that you're doing, that's so important, that's so essential, because you're juggling so many things and you're moving a shaker, and you ain't got time to waste, you ain't got time to be playing around. That's why you got to hear that. That you got to slow down to let to connect with the people, yeah. Letting them know what did you say they need to do, Pastor C let them know what yeah.

Pastor Cornelius 20:33

I was saying that you need to throw down and check on them. Check on them, yeah. Check on them because they're the one helping you carry the load. Check on the one that's helping you carry the load.

Pastor Dowell 20:45

And what I was gonna say, don't let you finish. That's the that's part of the connection. See, that's how you you have that compassion, that's how you don't just have direction, that's your connection. I'm slowing down. I got it. I'm I'm in the airport, I'm about to board a plane, and I got a ministry assignment. I'm I'm about to close a deal, but I know it's imperative that I have to find and squeeze time to connect with the people and check and see about them because that's my connection. That's why I want to say that that's the connection, and I hope that hit with people. That's that's genius, yeah.

Know Your Flock: Generations And Capacity

Pastor Cornelius 21:23

And then you have to when I'm checking on the low, because you was asking, you know, and doing this to make what what it looked like, you know, how to make it look. I think the other thing where you got to ask questions before the assignments. I need to ask questions before the assignment. Why? Because when I I I feel like if I'm I as I'm navigating and if I'm doing it with people in mind, they time matter, they life situation matter. So I need to know that. So I'm checking on my people, I'm checking, I'm checking in before I give the assignment. Because, see, they might have the ability to do the assignment, but they ain't got the time right now. Uh, because maybe it's because it's a life situation going on right now. So I feel like a good leader when I'm navigating, my attitude cannot be if they on the team, they just need to do what I'm assigning them. No, I need to put consider them, keep in mind who I'm navigating with, as I'm navigating, who with me. So at this particular time, I recognize they uh they time, they're gonna be able to get this assignment. So that's gonna help me with what you brought up earlier. I ain't gonna have no frustration. I ain't gonna have no frustration because I recognize they didn't have the time, so they don't get this particular assignment because of their time, but I got frustration if I have it, if I'm not navigating with them in mind, but only me. I got the time. You just got through saying these these they moving, right? So now boom, I'm gonna give you the assignment. Not considering you, you ain't got the time. I'm frustrated because you didn't get it done. Or you say hey pastor, I ain't really got the time. I I wanted to, but I ain't got the time. Couldn't do I'm frustrated, and what eliminate my frustration if I consider to meaning what I ask questions before the assignment. I think all that plays in this navigating, but man, I I love it because that echo not just direction, but the connection.

Pastor Dowell 23:47

See, because that you see the that's why you frustrate. You just had direction, but you didn't have a connection because you didn't you didn't know you always you you didn't know as our bishop would say the state of your flock. Yeah, that's the key. That's the key. That's the key, down. It's calling as a leader. You got to know the pulse. We're talking about the the compassion, you got to know the pulse of the people that you're leading. When I when I measure my pulse, it's telling me something about my blood pressure, it's it's letting me know how things internally internally are going on. See, when a leader, when you only think about the external, the the what and not the internal, the who that's when you end up with the frustration and the stagnation uh with the people, and so that's the I love that that's the compassion, checking in on them, seeing where they are, and I think about it, it's like this too. If you're gonna have that that leadership compass and compassion, it's like you gotta know really who you're leading, yeah, and what I mean, you gotta know who you're leading two ways, collectively and individually. Collectively, senior pastors, leaders of auxiliaries, leaders who leading movements, uh, your your team, that's it. Collectively, you have to be able to not stereotype, not put people in a box, but you need to be able to be able to put your people as best as you can in a category or two categories. Why? Because if I'm gonna lead with compassion and and lead with others in mind, the others are the collective people.

Pastor Cornelius 25:40

That's correct.

Practices Vs Principles: Adapt With Wisdom

Pastor Dowell 25:41

So, because if I'm leading a group of people who are a church auxiliary or whatever, they're mostly seniors or boomers. How I lead and navigate them, and when I realize these are seniors and boomers, it's gonna be different how I'm gonna lead millennials or Gen Z. Why? No, just they all it's the same vision, it ain't it, ain't about your direction. You can go in the same direction, but you're leading a different group of people. So the way I can navigate with baby boomers and seniors who are the day's different stage and season and then with their time, with their life, with their work, with their finances, it's gonna be with their energy level, it's gonna be different if I'm leading millennials or Gen Z. And so if you don't consider that in your navigation, you're gonna have frustration. Why people don't why while I can't get my team, and then what we do, which is not wise, Pastor C, we commit we compare ourselves among ourselves, which is not wise, yes, and so I look over and how you're navigating, and so now I want to follow your navigation system because it's working for you, man. You're you're reaching destination increase, you're in you're reaching destination multiplication, you're reaching destination uh uh manifestation with signs and wonders. So, since you're navigating that way, then I want to follow what you do, but what you do might not work for me because we're not leading the same people, that's correct. Why? Because see, you gotta lead with others in mind. He's leading baby boomers, yeah. You got a church of Gen Z. You have that you got people at a whole nother level, and so time people got uh uh AAU, uh different things, uh so you uh it there's a wisdom in that C. So I think that's it collectively, and then let me hear this, and I want to hear what you're saying. We cook this up individually, so now you gotta have there's a certain wisdom, you gotta know the state of your flop. Man, um my praise and worship team. I'm putting them all in the box, but I don't have what some may call, like say level 10, level 10 singers who maybe could follow uh a McDowell or a you know, or uh uh or uh old school John B. Key or Maverick City, they probably couldn't be their backups. Okay, see let me tell you the wisdom in this because you got one person they got strong backup people who level 10 people that probably trick travel around and be on the at this season. You you might have level fives and six who can hold a note, love God, but they might not so you might not can lead and do what somebody else does, and that's why you got to be able to lead, and you frustrated these people. See, because you're not leading with others in mind, and so you're not leaving why because when you leave with others in mind, then that may be some adjustments you got to do, but then you gotta look at them individually. What do you mean individually? So now I have a collective and everybody's different, so now I got to interact with different people on the team in different ways based on them. If I want to get the best out of them, if I want them to reach their blessed place, if I don't want to have if I don't want to have frustration, why? Because I'm if I'm trying to squeeze water out of a rock, if I'm trying to get something out of somebody that they cannot give, or not able to give, or don't have the time at this season or the ability to give, then I'm gonna be frustrated. Something got to give. That's why you got to know people individually. What are you hearing, Pastor? See, that's what I'm in. That's what you stirred within me when you thought about this navigation. That's what I'm I'm hearing.

Notice Faithful Vs Fakers And Guide With Grace

Pastor Cornelius 29:53

Man, I I I like that what you said. I'm gonna go back to the to the praise team. And I know um, I'm gonna hit this now. I know you at the end, you we always kind of no, we just float. We just flow. So, but I'm I'm thinking with the praise team. I I remember me navigating through with the praise team. I was way I was raised up, but our how church looked for me to me. I was used to a choir. Praise team did come in with me, but I was used to a choir. Choir have choir practice, cry rehearsal. I'm from the south, so we used to call it choir practice. When the choir comes in, they practice during the week. During the week, Sunday sacred. You don't do nothing on Sunday, you do church. So now I get a praise team. I expect the praise team because I had a choir and a praise team. Praise team will practice either after the choir rehearsal, uh either before. Nobody does nothing on Sunday, got a whole different group. Millennials brought up earlier the the the uh disease. No, they rehearse on Sunday mornings, totally different. I had to navigate with that in mind. Now they're not empty nesters, they have children, they have they have kids, they raising up the younger young. So they say, My best time is on Sunday morning. I had to navigate that, lead that with them in mind. I asked I describe praise team. Now I'm frustrated because they said we can't do earth's during the week. We got PTO, we got the games going on, but Sundays.

Pastor Dowell 31:58

So I'm like, nope, nope, no, if it worked back in the day, but are we compromising? If it worked then, Pastor C for people, it worked then. Why we change it work, you know, before covet, it should work now. Why are we changing compromise? Is that compromise? No, it's not compromise, it's wisdom.

Pastor Cornelius 32:17

It's what we talked about the first is wisdom because the way we at now in the times we at now is wisdom now. Because does it really matter? It has taken away nothing. So now I'm considering their time, what fit best for them, and still when Sunday money rolls around, Sunday rolls around service, they still they're producing, they producing, so no compromise is wisdom. This way we at now, this would work best by then that worked it better, and it was the people that was doing it by then, it's a different group of people.

Correct Without Wounding: The Way, When, Where

Pastor Dowell 32:58

It's good. I I hope leaders working with children, choir praise team, parking lot, bookstore, uh, pastor support, food ministry, pastors, running a conference, your church, your ministry, whatever team, and it's apply outside on your workplace as well. But we're talking to fivefold food principle apply that you're hearing that, Pastor C, that it's wisdom, it's not a compromise because the whole thing is about the outcome. It's not always it. The goal is that we get there, not how we get there. Sometimes the route may change, the vehicle may change, but the main thing is we want to get to that place. The old saying is more than one way to skin a cat. Yeah, that's true. If you can't fly there, we wanted to fly, but flying may not work, so we get a train. But we never we never do train. We we fly. No, we don't do bus. That we don't that trip, that that that weather, the turnaround, the the flight time. It best that we but it's not about the the vehicle, it's about getting to the location, and you have to look at your your your practices as vehicles and what the main thing we want to get to is the destination. That's why we got we can't be a practice-led leader. We have to be a principle-led leader, and on podcasts like this, Pastor, where you're teaching us what we're getting is the principles, yeah, because the principles are universal. Yeah, see, the principles can fit you, it can it's a universal thing, it can work here, it can work there. The principle is the same. That's why the Bible says wisdom is the principle thing. Why? Because the practices may change, but the principle remains the same, yeah. And so when we get that, then that's why I want to follow your principles. It's so good for me to know your practice. Tell me how you do this with your ushers, how you do this with your team, how you do this with your sound, with your video crew, how you do this with your dance minister, how you do this with your team, your apostolic company, how you do this with your prayer warriors, how you do this with your ancestors. It's good to know practices, but we have to go from practice to principle, and wisdom is the bridge that helped us get other people practice. We can pull out the principle, so then we can have the proper procedure and policy for our people. Let me say that again. We have to pick up practices from people, but we need wisdom to get the principle. This is important, Pastor C because some people, when they're not teaching oriented, if they're not breaking it down, marismotion it line on line, precept on precept, where we try to take this time on the podcast. If they don't break it down, see, we're not trying to be repetitive, we don't try to beat a dead horse, but we're trying to break it down to its lowest common denominator that's cool. That's right. Yeah, because now when you get the principle, you can have the proper practice, policy, and the procedure for your people. That's good, man. And that's how we always got to look. Don't try because you what worked there, because you got to look at who he's leading. What's the principle? The whole principle is this not that the praise team got to meet on this time. The principle, what you said, what works for them, yeah.

Pastor Cornelius 36:56

Yeah, that's it. That's it, that's it. And that's navigating with people in mind. What worked for them?

Pastor Dowell 37:06

Yeah, wow. Well, let's let's talk about for a minute, Pastor C. Let's talk about uh I I want to add maybe something that you want to add because what I'm hearing, what you're saying then is when you let them do the practice on a Sunday morning because they said that worked for them. Let's talk about how these principles in practice, like this is how it looks like in action. That's what I'm hearing. This is how it looked like, you know, this is what it looked like in real life and real ministry. What I'm hearing, it looked like adjustment. So maybe you want to share, like, what it look like. How can you really do this? In so again, see what we're doing. See, I want people to really catch it. It can almost seem like aren't we? Aren't we saying the same thing? And then see, this is how you marriage most divide it asunder, break it down so that the clear principle can abound. Oh, good god and Zion.

Pastor Cornelius 38:00

It's it look what one way this this principle, what we're talking about, navigate people in mind what it looks like. It looks like when noticing people, you noticing people, and in noticing them, you find out whether or not they're faithful or faking. Right? Oh, so you still hold them to a high standard, but at the same time, you give them you you give them room to breathe when they need to breathe. When they need to just take a breath. When they need to just take a breath, because you're noticing them. So you find out some people they're faithful when others are faking. So what this look like when I'm never getting with people in mind, I notice, I know a fake from a faithfulness. So I recognize that she's not faking, he's not faking this way they're at right now. So I need to give them time to breathe. I need to give them time to exhale. I recognize their life situation got them the way this is, and then there's the others, they ain't really faithful, they just faking, they always bringing up something. You're faking it, and I noticed that because I'm navigating with you in mind. Other words, I might be moving, but I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm watching you. I'm still seeing what I'm seeing, and because what I'm seeing, oh man, uh-uh. No, I need to make some adjustments here. I need that we we might need to make some changes, and so now what I'm praying for for wisdom, dial, I'm being honest, man. I'm praying for wisdom with you. How I'm gonna remove you.

Pastor Dowell 39:48

Why you need wisdom? Why not just so so let me hear this? So let's hit this. I won't hit why we need wisdom, why not just move them? But you saying we want to we want to remove the after when. We round up when we see that people are fakers, yeah. Kind of massage that a little bit for us, kind of unpack that. What what what what do you mean by their faker and then what like why you need to remove because you why you want to remove a faker? Kind of help the reason why I want to remove the faith. Notice who I compare them to the faithful and the faker. You said sometimes the faithful even need a breath, and they need breath, they need to breathe, right?

Pastor Cornelius 40:23

So you know what I said, no, no what I say about the faithful, not to remove them, but to give them a chance to breathe some.

Pastor Dowell 40:31

So sometimes they need time off, they need to take a step exactly. They might not be up to par, they might not be meeting the standard, but you notice them. You there's a good reason why you know they're not meeting the standard, and so what you do is you don't lower the standard, but you give them a chance to better themselves so they can get back to the standard. Exactly.

Empathy, Adaptability, Sensitivity, Engagement

Pastor Cornelius 40:53

You still hold the standard high, like you're saying, all right? But you still got a soft heart, though. Follow me. You have a soft heart. You standards high, but I have a soft heart. I love it. I have a soft heart, so I'm gonna give you a chance to breathe. The faker is just a pretender because they keep making up excruces. Now, I now now I didn't say this here, I'm but I give him his credit. My son was ministering, he said that all excuses is a glorified lie. So, in doing that, you're faking on me and you you're trying to fake it till you make it, but your auxiliary, or if you're in the five-fold, whatever thing you over, it keeps the results is still the same. It's still the same, and so we all say it's insanity to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. So that faker keeps doing that same thing, and I keep seeing the same results. So now, because of that, I need to remove you, and but you asked about the wisdom, but I removing you. I got the guide here, Mr. Down. I'm gonna have the guide with grace. It I call it guiding with grace. I'm gonna spend grace.

Pastor Dowell 42:20

We got him with grace, yeah. I'm gonna card, but high standard. Why? Why why why not go into the why not just cut them, remove them, sit them down? Uh why don't you just do that? Why why all this is necessary?

Pastor Cornelius 42:36

Because I'm not trying to destroy them at the end of the day. I'm still considering them. I'm I'm navigating a person in mind, so I got to understand that this is people's business. I'm not trying to destroy them, I'm still out to build them, help them, but they might just be on the stage right now, all they can do is fake. So I I'm not saying I'm not gonna put you back, but you got to go to the bench. You ain't helping the team, you're hurting the team. But I don't want to destroy the team, the individual. But I can't let the individual destroy the team, so I got to deal with the individual, and how I deal with the individual, I don't want to destroy them. So going to the bench or not letting you kick don't mean I'm not gonna let you kick again. It's just right now you're missing too many field goals. You miss too many field goals at game time, at practice, you looking good, but you're a faker because you can't stand pressure. I'm just using the analogy we always do football. So now every time in pressure moments, you miss that kick. So I want to make sure I grab you because at the end of the day, I got you in mind. I want to make you better. So this is what we got to do. This is what we got to do. We got to cut you, but not destroy you. I'm not gonna destroy you. So I want to do it. That's why I want grace. I want to guide, like I say, I want to get I want guidance, but I want to do it with grace.

Strengths, Struggles, And Setting Up Success

Pastor Dowell 44:20

I love it, I love it. I think that's what speaks to you said a key point that we have to uh realize we're in the people business that still we don't want to destroy them, and I think that's how we've gotten not maliciously, not intentionally, but it's kind of almost happened accidentally that that's how we have a lot of church hurt because uh leaders who wanted to have a standard or had an expectation and they were navigating, but they didn't do it with others in mind, meaning that the the execution of whatever they need to do, that's why we see maybe on social media these days is prevalent. You'll see a pastor, somebody, they do something, correcting somebody, doing something, and it's not always that what the pastor was doing or leader was wrong, it wasn't always about the what, it was about the way they did it, and not it was the way, and sometimes it was the when they did it, yeah, then it was the where they did it, yeah. The what was right, it's like that needed to be addressed. That maybe was not good, but we lose those the wisdom of that pastor see with social media now when it goes viral because everybody's gonna pound on the way, they're gonna pound on the when, and they're gonna pound on the the the where it was done, but and and so what we'll lose is the value of the what was done, and that's how a lot of pastors get in trouble, not just pastors, leaders, leaders, any different area, yeah. And now you're in the pastor's office or whatever, and you feel now you have a problem because you feel like the pastor don't have my back. It's not that you have it's not what you did was wrong, it's the way you went about doing it. Well, you just won't let people do what they want to do, don't have a standard. See, you you didn't you're not getting it. It's not about the the what you got to still, we don't want to destroy people. We and so it's not and see when leaders don't get this because they haven't been taught this, they'll have this mentality. Man, we just gotta deal with kid gloves with everybody. We just gotta everybody soft these days, everybody's soft, soft. That's why we're in a trophy generation. Everybody win a participation trophy, everybody's soft. This is a soft generation, so people, it ain't like it was back in the day, big mama or mama such and such, or deacon such and such, they'll just rebuke you and tell you, like that shirt that dress too short, you know, they need to sit down somewhere, you shouldn't be coming up in the house of the Lord like that. They would just tell you, you know what we did? We we did, we just took it. They'll the usher, and so you think because you went through that, or that was in a season of life in the 80s or the 90s, or whenever, or that particular place. Now they have a image that if it's not like that, then people are being uh coddled, they'll being babied, and that's the what's wrong with them now. They're being babied, not not necessarily that you can still correct, you can still discipline, you can still sit down, you can still do all of those things with love, compassion, and it all happens when you do it with others in mind, yeah, because you know, even with children, that's right, you can have the same children in the house, and if you if you deal with one child, maybe raise your voice or tell them, like, you know, I'm disappointed, you can destroy that child. Because the way that their temperament is built, that you got to realize there's another way, everybody not motivated, inspired the same way, disciplined the same way, and so that's why, as a leader, I think that's important. That's why I thought it was so good. We talk about doing it with grace. See, that's why you're doing it with because that's with them in mind. Your mind is just it's like the old saying is when with your parents, don't discipline your kids when you're upset, because now it's all about you. You don't disrespect me, you don't embarrass me, you don't we raise you better. See, that's about you. The discipline is for the child, so when you get out of your feelings or your emotions, you can do it with grace, and then it is truly what we would say. This really does hurt me more than it hurts you. See, and so I think that's I think that's so important, Pastor C down.

Goal-Driven Pitfalls And Leaving People Behind

Pastor Cornelius 49:02

With like the example you just used with the child, that child that you know always into something. That child is that's that one you show a whole lot of love to. You want to overwhelm them with it, with love. So when you do discipline them down, they recognize what you just got through saying. You you're doing it out of love because you always showing them love. So now when it's time to discipline them, I correct them, they receive it like that. Because I'm always showing love. I don't just show love after I discipline you, but all the time, I'm always kissing on my little boy, I'm always kissing on my little girl. When they look, I'm always doing it. I'm always doing that's when they're doing right, I'm doing it all the time. When they doing, I'm doing it. So when the wrong happen, they still see that. I heard my grandkids one time talking about who they'll call, who they'll call if something happened and they had to go to jail. It amazed me. They would say, Oh, I'm gonna call pop pop, I'm gonna call pop pop. I really didn't think that would be the case that they say they would call pop-pop because they figured out pop pop. No, but I figured it out because pop pop always kissing on them now. It's now, and yet at the same time, pop pop, this I'm the disciplinary one. So I wouldn't think, but it's that is when you demonstrate love now, and the same with people that I'm leading. That if I love on them, if I'm uh if if I'm leading them with them in mind, that means I'm caring, I'm there, they trust me. So when it's time for me to discipline, or when it's time for me to have to correct, they good, because you know what? I believe he got my best interest in heart. Another time, I I know we we just doing it how we used to do. Just had a situation, man. Just had a situation where a deaconess. I went over and delivered something there, and said to me, to me, Pastor, you probably need to sit me down. I said, What? Why you say that? Because they had had a health issue, so they limited what they with what they can do. They limit it. And I said to them, yeah, I I recognize that some of the things that that's mandated now, you can't do it because of what happened to them. Not only a health issue, so they can't they can't breathe, and and I got leaders going through this mandatory training, and they can't do some things, say so. It's probably best, Pastor, because what can I do? I can't do the thing. I said, Hold up, hold up. Let me tell you part of the vision, something we finna do. I say, one of the things deacons do, you make phone calls. You make phone calls. This person said, Oh, I could do that. I said, Yeah, you stay connected with your members that that that you're leading, that's under you with the phone calls. The other stuff, Pastor, know you you don't have the capability of doing. I know that. I said, but I need you on the team because there's some things that you can do and you're good at it. That's what I'm looking at. So I get ready to walk out of this lady's house, she stopped me. Said, Pastor, I want to let you know I appreciate you because you're understanding. You're understanding. I recognize her condition. I care about your condition, but I know one thing, you're valuable to the team. You just can't do all the things everybody else on the team can do. You can't do all the things I'm making mandated. You got to be in this class. You can't do that now. But you can pick up a phone, you can call somebody and say, I'm checking on you, your deacon, but we ain't seen your church. Oh, you're in the hospital. I'm just checking on you. Those things, all right.

LAST: Listen, Ask, Set Attention, Take Time

The Golden Eggs Parable: Don’t Kill The Goose

Pastor Dowell 53:16

Man, I think that's good, and that's how we do it. What you're saying, Pastor C, how this looks like, how do we lead with others in mind? It's not a compromise, but we're navigating what I can hear in the back of my mind from the whiz come on and ease on down, ease on down the road. Don't you carry nothing that might be a load, ease on down, ease on down the road. Why they're easing on down the road because they're trying to get somewhere, they're trying to get somewhere, and I think about that. If we're going to leave with others in mind, I think about ease, ease on down the road. You got it. What you're saying, you wanna you wanna navigate, you want to lead with them with empathy, you're feeling what they feel, but you don't lose focus. See, you you you're feeling what they're going through. See, that's what empathy is. Yes, not sympathy. Jesus was touched with the feelings of our infirmities. Listen, ministers, this is how we do it with navigation. Some leaders are so because they're born the leaders, men, they so they so authoritarian, they so get it done, people. That's good. God made you that way, He made you hard with your face like flint. You don't care about what people think. You are evil. I don't need a lot of friends. I'm need a lot. God get He put that that in there because you need that as a leader, because leadership will break you, but at the same time, you got to be like Jesus. He's a lion and a lamb. Some leaders only you can't just lean into the lion, but if you're gonna be like Jesus, now if you're gonna be a Jesus leader, not bishop such and such, apostle such and such, or whoever such and such who you aspire to, who seem to have results that you like, but because they got the results, don't mean people. This is why we see later on documentaries when you get behind the scenes, people that have been in what we thought were quote unquote successful organizations, ministries, parallel uh uh paraministries, whatever, broken, hurt, and wounded. Why? Because they had leaders who didn't lead like lions and lambs, but you thought because of the success, all was well now. So that's it. Empathy, the compassion, the ease on down the road. Not only you gotta empathize, feel them, you gotta be able to adapt. That's what you said. We can we'll adapt. No, we we'll adapt. You make phone calls, you don't lower the standard. Adapt. We we can meet on Sunday morning. You can y'all can do it then. Adapt, not lower the standard. That's how you help lead with others in mind because the policy is not for you, it's for the people. You know, you're not for the law, the law written for you. So you gotta sometimes not you gotta adapt or adjust your pace, your process with people, adapt how you're doing it. That's a good leader. Adapt why? Because you don't want to go so fast, you you you you outrun them. Then that's you got the ease, you got the e, the a, the s. You want to be sensitive. Come on, let's ease on down the road. Sensitive with the the the what when things shift where they are, the season they are in their life, what's going on, and what what may be for one person may not be for the others. Why? Because you got to be sensitive, then the e engage, like you said, staying connected, communicating. You talked about it, Pastor C, checking in, celebrating that price progress and all that. And I think when we do that and we have that sensitivity, then we have that ease, E, A, S, E, E, then we're gonna have that engagement. That's it. We're gonna be sensitive, we're gonna be empathy, we're gonna have empathy, adaptability, sensitivity, engagement, and then that's how we're gonna help them ease on down the road. That's how we lead with and we navigate with others in mind. And when we're doing that, like you said, in that, what you gotta do, you gotta know people's strengths, you gotta know their struggles because I'm gonna navigate, you gotta know their strengths, that's what they're good. That that what they do well, their struggles. Then you got to be sensitive like that to where they are, and we know their strengths and their struggles, and you have sensitivity. Now you can set them up for success, and you know how to help them ease on down the road. That's good, and that that's all leading with others. Navigate, that's how we do it, and that's what you say. This term all the time. You got to know the state of your flock, you got to be among them to know their gifts, their talents, their strength. And let me say this too. I see if you're gonna navigate with others in mind, you got to know yourself, you need self-awareness. You gotta know your strengths, your weaknesses, you gotta know their personality, your personality, because you got to know how to navigate with others that they're just talkative. That's how they are. That this one that's uh to navigate with them in mind to set them up for success. What are you hearing? What questions you got, Pastor? What are you hearing? Where you think we need to go with this before we we land this today?

Pastor Cornelius 58:53

Okay, one of the things I I will ask like, have you ever led something? I some I would ask leaders have you ever led? Are you moving forward without realizing who had been left behind? Hmm, you got ever yeah, have you ever as a leader to these leaders? Have you ever been moving forward and then later realized you had left somebody behind?

Pastor Dowell 59:23

I I I would say with me, not I wouldn't necessarily say maybe left behind, but I I I would speak to in that same point where I made what I made maybe mistakes in navigation because that's a that's a navigation mistake, right? Yeah, you think somebody behind you made a mistake. I don't know if I necessarily may left them behind. See, maybe I probably left behind, but I uh I know I made some mistakes in that because uh because I'm so go focused, and leaders like this have to worry about that because you. When you're goal focused, you goal-oriented, like a lot of leaders. Man, I'm a goal-oriented person, I'm a goal-focused person, and because I've been so uh in certain seasons before I learned to navigate with others in mind, I was about to go, Pastor C. And then you probably right. I probably did leave them behind because I was about to go.

Pastor Cornelius 1:00:22

Because see, everybody at the same pace as you at the same speed of you, especially people like what you just brought up, and that was my point. People that's really goal-oriented, yeah, task oriented for completing the task. I got this goal whether deadline oriented, yeah. If we careful, we overlook that everyone don't move at our same speed, and then people sometimes don't tell you they struggling to keep up with you. They struggling to keep up with you. They just what they eventually do, they slowly just pull on, they just pull back because they can't do it, they don't tell you that they struggling. That's the stagnation, yes, yes, and you you what you like?

Final Wisdom, Resources, And Closing

Pastor Dowell 1:01:15

Oh man, what's going on with them? Uh well, when you frame it that way, you said task, go. What else did you say? You said what else too? I said that these people are deadline, deadline, yeah. TAS go deadline. Man, you're right. Well, I probably have left people behind too, but see, because that's how I was in one season, and and and uh shame on you for not preaching this, teaching this before then. I wouldn't made made that. He tell me, man, what kind of friend you are? Glad I got a friend in Jesus. Man, you should have said this 20 years ago. I could have kept me from some frustration, agitation, heartbreak, hotel. Why? Because I'm I'm about to go, the mission, the deadline, and then we need to get it done, yeah. And so uh, and and and and and I I struggled with that, but now had to learn, and I didn't put it. You helped give me the terminology now. I had to learn to leave with others in mind. What to be more sensitive to where they are, and it might I'm we might not get there as fast as I thought, right? I might have to carry what I learned to do. I learned that I run, but I don't try to make my people run as much. Yes, like I had to look at their season. Maybe I wanted this to be accomplished in them, let's say in three months, it might take nine months, it might be another year before we really get there. But the point is that we get there, right?

Pastor Cornelius 1:02:40

And see, I think we make mistakes sometimes as leaders when we don't navigate with people in mind thinking that they just because they're quiet, they fine. They ain't saying that so they they fine, they're all right, because they're quiet, or we assume that everyone has the same energy or the capacities we do, out of other people that you're leading to. Uh we believe caring. If I take time to care, it's gonna slow down the progress. When the truth is, caring helps sustain it.

Pastor Dowell 1:03:18

Man, you dropping gems. I love it. You said slow down the process and write that down.

Pastor Cornelius 1:03:24

Yeah, before that sometimes we believe caring might slow down the process, it slows it down, but the truth doesn't matter, it sustains it.

Pastor Dowell 1:03:32

Yeah, man. I've been there. See, that's why we have what people that's why you gotta be sensitive, and so now because I've had seasons where people I found out in retrospect that I was moving too fast, but they didn't tell me, and you know why? Because I'm moving and I didn't pick up the signs because I was moving too fast. Because sometimes some people won't go, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, did you tell them I'm tired? Did you just hear me? Listen, I said that I I got um my my my child got soccer, and my daughter got ballet, and and um, and my and and I'm preparing for a new thing on my job, pastor, uh head usher, head deacon, hell da da da, whatever. You you you remember I told you that I'm not you know, you said in a respectful way, remember you just gave me another task and you gave me another assignment. Remember, I told you I got a whole lot of things on my plate right now, and it might not be to you know, after the summer or whatever. Remember, I can't do that, but you just sent me down, you know. I wanted to bring that, but what people to do, and I'm gonna encourage leaders, don't be like that. That's why I had to learn what people to do and what people did to me, they'll pull back, yeah, or worse, they'll get offended, yes, and they feel, and you have to take the hit, and they'll be like, You ain't sensitive, and and really true, they really didn't lie, but it wasn't a heart thing, it was a head thing. It's like you don't care about me, pastor or leader. You you I told you what season I was in my life, you didn't hear me, so it comes over like and that's truthful. You didn't hear me, you're not sensitive to me, and it really seemed like you really don't care about me. That's how it comes over, that's how it looks, and at the end of the day, you have to own that, but that wasn't my intent, though. I I do care, I am, I do need to be more sensitive, so you have to learn to slow down because everybody won't make them think so. Now I made it my mind. See, I'm very sensitive. Why you don't have to tell me I'm watching and looking, I can tell by your life because if people don't do that, or if you so fast, and I had it with my wife to say, I told you, pay. That's why you got to own it as a leader. I I told you, and you have to own it. You did, but I was so focused on my goal, so focused on my deadline, so focused on my task. At the end of the day, I didn't really hear you, and I made that mistake, Pastor C. And that's why I slowed down when I'm dealing with people, and I turned up my sensitivity volume so I can help people ease on down the road. I love it. I hope they're getting that, Pastor. I hope they're getting that.

Pastor Cornelius 1:06:32

They will not tell you. Well, guess what happened to leaders Z and down when you do that? That's never gonna you last. L A S T. You last, you last because you know what you did? You listen, you listen more more more deeply. You ain't just you listen more deeply. That's how you last. You ask for honest feedback. This is how you last, man. You ask for honest feedback, right? You set SCT, you set your mind on, listen, listen to me. You set your mind on paying attention. You set your mind to it. You that means you intentionally do it. You set to pay attention to body language and energy shifts. When people's energy begins to shift, you set your mind to pay attention to body language and when energy shifts. This time you last, and you take the time, you take the time when the morale is down, you take the time to stop and reset. When morale is down, you take the time to sit down, to stop and reset. What was that? A I love this. What was the A? The A is you ask for honest feedback.

Pastor Dowell 1:07:54

You got to be able to handle the truth, too. There you go. You got to. And don't get offended when they tell you the truth.

Pastor Cornelius 1:08:00

Yeah, right. If you want to last, right? I'm talking about folks that want to last as a leader. Wanna last? If you you you you're talking about we're talking about wings now, don't forget. Because we're talking about sowing. We're talking about we're not talking about the calipital that's crawling. That's the particular stage where you go through that stage and you get in the cocoon. But now, if you want to soar, if you want, if you want to be that leader, you need wings. That butterfly, you need wings, and you want to last. And you said listen for what that listen with what now you want to listen more more deeply, more deeply, not just casual. I mean, more deeply. I'm listening to you. Listen more deeply, ask for you. You ask for honest, uh, honest feedback. You then you stop and pay attention. You with your mind, you set your mind, you set your mind to pay attention to body language and energy shifts. Because people body language and how they energy shift. I do it in meetings, and I'm not talking about just at peaceful. When I'm in board meetings, I'm I'm I'm looking how I could tell the body language the in shifting because I got to know how to take control of that room. So I I'm saying that, and then the other thing you do, man, you take the time to stop and reset. I love sometimes you need another meeting, man. It ain't you don't need another meeting, you need a moment of ministry, not a meeting, a moment of ministry. What I'm what I mean by a moment of ministry where you minister to the person because you're concerned about the person. We don't need another meeting. I just need to minister to them. A moment of ministry.

Pastor Dowell 1:09:50

That's that's genius because it's not about the test or the goal, that's that people more important, and when we find four minutes, you gotta realize that. And I failed at that. I love that last acronym. I failed at that in seasons that I didn't last because I didn't, I didn't listen more deeply. I listened shallow because I was so focused on my goal. See, I was I was more compass leader than compassion leader. You gotta be balanced, you gotta be relational, you gotta have a compass in your hand, magnet in your heart, but it gotta be a relational compass. I went from just a compass to a relational compass that I have to be compassionate so I can help people ease down the road. It reminds me, see, uh of the story. I don't know if you heard of this farmer, he had this goose, and this goose would lay these golden eggs. And man, these eggs was worth thousands and thousands of dollars. And so every time the goose laid the egg, he goes to the goose every three days, every you know, maybe every four or five days, he get that egg, he goes sell it money. He goes and selling they're like, Man, can you get more eggs? I'll give you this much. He goes, and then he was like, he couldn't wait for time, he couldn't wait to get the egg, and then he kind of like you know, couldn't wait for time, he get the egg. He got to a point, he said, You know what? Man, I'm I'm waiting on these eggs. I'm just gonna, I know what I can't wait. I need these eggs now. He went and he he killed the goose, and I'ma cut it, I'm gonna cut them open so I can get the eggs out of there. Then when he when he cut killed the goose and got the eggs out, he realized it wasn't no eggs to get and then and and because he was so focused on getting the eggs, he killed the goose.

Pastor Cornelius 1:11:51

Man, that's good, Down.

Pastor Dowell 1:11:53

And he ended up with no goose or no eggs because he killed the goose when we don't navigate as leaders and are sensitive with others in mind, we can kill the goose. The very thing that's gonna help get us the result is your team because you you went too fast, you did too much. So don't lead us, don't uh kill the goose trying to get your egg. Man, anything you want to leave with us, Pastor C? Any question, thing we didn't cover today in this?

Pastor Cornelius 1:12:35

Well, I think the lead with the leaders, all of us, is that I believe we're in a season where God is actually calling us down to slow down enough to see people again, not their titles, not all of our tasks, but to see people, see people, see their hearts because when you care for people's hearts, God will always take care of the harvest. You'll get the harvest. The things to come that you won't if you care about the hearts of people, wow, that's what I would leave with, man. God is calling us to slow down where we can see people again. Not the task, not even their talents, but I want to see your heart. So, what my challenge would be to the leaders, my challenge would be this man to personally take time, maybe once a week or something, with the people that you're leading, sometime or another, definitely gonna go months without doing this if anybody once a month, not to talk to them about your ministry or whatever you over, but that just ask them how you really doing. How you doing, how you really doing that kind of connection when you do that, that keeps you grounded and that keeps them growing. Wow, what wisdom.

Pastor Dowell 1:14:11

Well, my friend Pastor C, I've enjoyed this conversation that we have. I pray that others, as they pull the seat up to the table, we pray that you've enjoyed this five-fold food discussion. If you want to uh get other materials, because it's so much, Pastor C's uh great leadership, great leader. There's a QR code for those that are watching with us on YouTube. You can scan this QR code, or you can go to Amazon and look up the book, The Seven Dimensions of Leadership. Is that it, Pastor C? Yes, that's it. And you can look at the seven dimensions of leadership by uh Dr. Clinton Cornelius. Also, you can check out a book that I wrote. You see that Igniting the Leader in You. Just some other materials that can get uh help you. Also, you want to get other ministry. There's a uh link that you can get to our ministry link tree resources that available to avail and bless you. And then also I'll put a final link. You can scan that, you can go back and watch it, go back and see the replay, or you can subscribe to courses that may be a blessing uh to you. Well, any closing thought I see I've learned, man. I love that last. I'm glad that I want to be a leader that last I failed in that regard because I'm so goal-oriented, but that's why I think it's so important that leaders know themselves and leaders know who they are, so you can learn to make adjustments and be able to lead with others in mind. I've been blessed by this conversation, uh, and I appreciate your wisdom. Any final thoughts you have for our so you bless me, man.

Pastor Cornelius 1:15:53

I'm sitting here thank God for you, man. No capping, man, for a friend like you. All I could think about is that ease on down the road, ease, man. That ease that I gotta keep showing empathy to people. I got I got to understand the important of adapting, I'm making adjustments down, being sensitive to people. Man, I'm telling you, and then that last E man engaging, engagement.

Pastor Dowell 1:16:17

You said it how to engage. You taught us how to engage, though. Yeah, so now to see people, yeah, not just caring about the title. That's that's how you help ease on down the road.

Pastor Cornelius 1:16:27

I love it, man. I know always a blessing, man. It's conversation. That's how it is.

Pastor Dowell 1:16:35

I know, and now we're talking over some wings. I know we're talking about chicken wings, you're talking about butterfly. We pray that you've been blessed, ministers. Be sure you subscribe to the podcast. Let us know if this has been blessing you. Any uh content you like for us to deal with. We look forward to our next time together. We pray that you've eaten well and you will excel. God bless you. Until our next time, Pastor C. I look forward uh to gathering around five fold food. Praise God.