Grace-Based Leadership: How to Correct Without Crushing and Hold People Accountable

What if the missing piece in your leadership isn’t a new system, but a new spirit? We dig into the hard edge and soft center of leadership by redefining grace as the bridge between accountability and redemption. Instead of lowering standards, grace raises people to meet them—without leaving bruises along the way.

We unpack how to correct without crushing, model honor publicly, and handle discipline privately. You’ll hear a practical G.R.A.C.E. framework—Growth, Redemption, Attitude, Correction, Excellence—that helps you decide when to retrain, reposition, or release someone, and how to do it without trauma or shame. From Moses’ burnout to Paul, Barnabas, and John Mark’s arc of restoration, we show why patience eventually runs out, but grace remains sufficient. Expect honest stories from the trenches: “bloody” confrontations that escalate and “silent” leadership that suffocates teams. Then learn how high standards and soft hearts build trust, reduce rework, and keep talented people from walking.

If your default is to hammer or to hide, this conversation will recalibrate your culture. We share language leaders can use to separate the issue from the person, set timelines for improvement, and make tough calls with dignity. You’ll leave with tools to address patterns early, avoid public embarrassment, and anchor accountability in mission, not ego. Grace doesn’t mean “anything goes.” It means “no one left behind” while we still move forward.

Subscribe for more tools to grow your leadership wings, leave a five-star review to help other leaders find the show, and share this episode with someone who needs fresh courage to lead with grace. Where do you need to correct without crushing this week?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the Fivefold Food Podcast, hosted by Dr. Robert F. Dial, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment they need to receive. The Word of God declares a day of apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfection of the faith. Prepare to receive revelation, wisdom, and insight. Empower your ministry for victory.

Series Setup: Butterfly Leadership

Pastor Dowell 0:32

Now, let's well, praise the Lord. God bless each and every one of you. Welcome to another edition of the Fivefold Food Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Robert F. Dow, and I'm so delighted that you're here for another podcast. No matter whether you are watching this on YouTube, Facebook, or any other social media platform, on Spotify, listen on Spotify, iTunes, whatever you get your podcast, I want to ask that you like and subscribe so that you can get our latest podcast edition. Also, be sure with another ministry leader, especially those fivefold ministry leaders. Share this podcast with them. We believe it will be a blessing to them. Also, if you are on uh iTunes or Spotify, we pray that you will give us a review. We'll appreciate a five-star review. It'll help get this podcast to other ministry leaders as well. Also, if you look in the show notes, you can find other resources that'll be a blessing uh to you and your five-fold ministry. Part of this podcast today is brought to you by the New Life Bible College and Seminary, where they help ministers grow and learn from discipleship programs to doctoral degrees. If you want to grow further in the things of God and have some credentials to back up all of your years of learning, be sure you look in the show notes, hit the link, and you can find more about our Bible school and college. Well, we're so glad that you're here today. I want to get started right to today's uh podcast. Again, today I am joined by I won't say my partner in crime, but my partner in conversation, Dr. C C How are we doing today, man of God? Hey God, I'm great.

Pastor Cornelius 2:25

How are you doing, sir? I'm great. All is well here. Nice weather here in the state of Florida, man.

Defining Grace For Leaders

Pastor Dowell 2:29

Everything looking good, and you ain't said nothing new about that, so don't brag about that. It don't matter whether they listen to this podcast in June, July, or December. It's all gonna be the same then. So uh we're we'll we're thankful for that. I'm excited today. I'm excited. Always look forward to these podcasts as we cook up this meal because we don't know what God is gonna say or God's gonna do. So we're gonna ask you all, pull up a chair as we have five-fold food and eat some things that are on the table. Let's get into the day's podcast. Now, last podcast together, uh Pastor C, we've been dealing with the subject of going from caterpillar to butterfly leadership, going from those leaders that crawl to those leaders that fly. And this podcast series was inspired by an awesome leadership teaching uh that you had conducted. And God put in my heart, man, we need to do a podcast on this. So we so appreciate you birthing out uh that message on the butterfly leader. And so you you shared in that that what we're gonna do in order to go from a caterpillar uh to a butterfly leader, you got to get wings. That's the transformation that the caterpillar gets. And so we've been dealing with what that wing is the W with the wisdom, the I. It deals with being an inspiring leader. Uh, the the in we talk about you got to navigate with others in mind. If you miss those podcasts, be sure you go back and hear them. Boy, they'll bless you or watch them there on the YouTube channel. That brings us to the G uh in our podcast uh today. Uh, Pastor Uh Cornelius. And the G in uh the uh getting those leadership wings is give grace generously. This is what you said. We have to give grace generously, and so let's frame this out before we build it. You know, before they build the house, they like to uh uh frame it, and and and I want to put this in the frame. I would say, as we just frame it out, I'm excited about uh today's uh podcast, Pastor C, because grace uh has been a subject widely preached about in terms of salvation. Normally, when we hear about the term grace, it's in salvation, and sometimes it could be somewhat controversial for some, meaning that you want to be sure how you deal with grace so you don't give people quote unquote, you know, some say a license to sin, and you know, we're we're not getting into that aspect, but normally when we hear grace, it's in terms of salvation. I'm so excited about today's podcast, uh, because um uh many rarely have we heard the subject of grace dealt with from a leadership perspective, not a salvation perspective, but a leadership perspective. And I believe, Pastor C, because we have not dealt with it from a leadership uh perspective, uh, then I believe grace and a leadership perspective have been misapplied, meaning that it has grace has not been applied, applied properly, walked in properly, and I believe it results in leadership imbalance. Well, leaders are imbalance in one way. Well, they they end up what I call a uh a backwards trending ministry, it's the ministry go backwards because they're not balanced uh with with grace. Uh, instead of people growing forward because they didn't apply grace the proper way, uh, it's a backwards trending uh leadership in an organization, but then also on the other extreme, if we don't apply it, we're not balanced with grace and not going backwards, Pastor C, people end up battered, beat up, and bruised. And and they stalled out in the mission. Why? Because grace was out of balance on the other side, and so I think we got to look at grace from a leadership uh perspective. So I'm so excited. I'm brought glad that you brought uh this uh to the table. We're gonna have those flourishing ministries. I think we got to have a balanced approach to grace, and we got to be able to just talk about it from a leadership perspective. When you think about this in a holistic way or framing it and of the importance of this, uh, what comes to your mind as we get ready to take off today in this discussion?

The Bridge: Accountability To Redemption

Pastor Cornelius 6:49

I think first of all, we have to understand how grace to me fit here. Is it means to lead for when we talk about grace with leadership? It means to lead with patience, with mercy, and understanding, the same way the Lord shows us. That in other words, the same mercy, the same patience, and understanding that God shows us, that's what we should do. Not now, it's not easy, right? It's not easy, but and who we show it to, especially the people who have fallen, falling short in their tasks. You know, as you're leading them, they have fallen short in their tasks. So, what we're saying in this, and what I was the concept, um, the principle I was trying to show is that the same way God shows us understanding, patience, and mercy, when we fall short, when you're leading people, they fall short of the tasks of different things. We should be doing the exact same thing. Okay, now what Grace, I guess what I would say, what grace do, Grace says, I see in leadership, I see your potential even when you miss the mark. That's what grace is. I see your potential even when you miss the mark. Now, now let's make it clear. We'll probably talk about this further down the line, but uh now grace doesn't mean overlooking wrong. It means that you lead people towards the right, the right way. You don't overlook the wrong, but you lead them the right way with love, with humility, and with the attitude of want to restore them.

Pastor Dowell 8:35

That's good.

Pastor Cornelius 8:36

That's how I define that grace.

Correct Without Crushing

Pastor Dowell 8:38

Good. I like that. I think if we're gonna build it out, you're gonna start with a good foundation, framing it, and I think it starts with a good working definition of grace. I love that. I like to take notes in this time. You said grace is I see your potential even when you miss the mark. So that's what grace is. So we can see it, even seeing that right, uh, the potential in a person, and then also, as you said, looking at the same grace that God had towards us and our salvation, and our walk with Him, modeling that out as leaders. That's good. I think about too when we think about what grace is. I think uh grace is I look at it as like a bridge. Uh-huh. Grace in terms of leadership, it's the bridge between accountability and redemption. Because, see, I think that's how we get out of balance in the extremes. When grace is not balanced properly, it happens because we it's all about we want to hold people accountable. It's that, like like you said about wrong, it's you you gotta be because we know as leaders, we gotta hold people accountable, and not all leaders, but some leaders are type A personalities, they're more aggressive in their personality, even some that might not be aggressive in their personality, they are goal-oriented. Uh, like you said last time, they're task-driven. And so if they're a leader, whether of a church, a reformation, apostle, bishop, uh, outreach, whatever realm they lead, praise and worship, whether we're in the parking lot, as a leader, but makes them effective is that to a degree they have a level of vision. And so they have their vision-oriented and focused people, and so since they're like that, uh, what happens is they know in order to get whatever task that they're done, people have to be held accountable. And when you get out of balance in that, you you're on one side of the bridge, so it's accountability, but then the other side, people need to be redeemed, no man left behind. Oh, I like that. We got to go back. We can't, we it's it's going back for the the the leaving the 99, but how we balance that the balance of it, the tension between accountability and no one left behind in the 99, that bridge is grace, and I believe it's it's grace uh with with wisdom that we talked about as well. It takes wisdom to uh of grace to bridge that gap. I think a lot of time, Pastor C, since you deal with definition of grace, so we can have a good working uh definition of grace in terms of a leadership perspective. So I think that's why this is so important. Uh, as we're gonna lead, because this is part of your wing. You ain't flying nowhere if you don't get this grace wing. That's right. And if you don't give grace generally, you're not gonna fly, you're not you're not gonna fly long or you're gonna fly wrong uh because you're gonna fly in circles, right? And you'll continue to visit things and patterns in your life, and you'll you'll you're flying in circles. Maybe you got the other things going on. You get you got some wisdom, you're inspiring, but you'll find yourself in patterns in cycles, maybe because you haven't really uh got this grace thing done, and so I think when we talk about definition, sometimes we can find it, but what things are not. Grace is not weakness, you know, just grace. Something sometimes I think what happens too, Passy, when we think about grace, we may not have used the term grace in terms of when we're talking about dealing with people and circumstances. I think we might have we might deal with it with accountability, but you got to factor grace in, or sometimes people say we just having mercy, we're being grace or love, we just we're showing love. That same thing, I think, is that same thing of grace, so it's not weakness, but it's wisdom applied with kindness. See, it's wisdom applied with kindness, not weakness. Grace is giving people room to grow without giving up on the standards. I'm not giving up on standards, I like that still giving them room to grow, and so I think grace requires balance between conviction, compassion, correction with care. That's grace that we got a conviction, we got to have compassion, but it's correction, so it's all of those things working together that we got to correct. And some say, Amen, we got to correct, but then we got to have care. I think, and some may not say care, but they might say love. You know, we got to show people love, people need love, people hurt, but then other people need correcting. There's a standard, and I think grace, as we filter through this, I hope it'll help uh the ministers and pastors be able to fly better because now they realize you got to give grace generously and know how to walk in, walk in it and not out of balance, not from a salvation preaching perspective, but from a leadership perspective. What do you mean, man of God?

Pastor Cornelius 13:32

So, what I'm hearing in that I like what you were saying about the grace and the caring. So it's I'm gonna say the correcting and the caring. So you're saying that we correct, but we don't crush. Whoa, what grace is I correct them, but I don't crush them. Uh and and and that's what I I I see. So what we do is we I I that's billing them without breaking them. See, so if if if if I'm gonna I'm gonna have the correct, is there I'm that's that balance. You I'm gonna have to do some correction, but I'm correcting you without crushing you, and I'm building you without breaking you. See, so as a leader, because that leader job is to build, but I don't want to break you. It's my job still as a leader to correct you, but I ain't trying to crush you. So again, I think of those two T's down. So now the corrective is based upon the truth. This is the truth, but the other T with this thing is tenderness. A leader got to know how to deal in the truth and be tender. Both of them go hand in hand together. That's that balance to me. That's grace. Now, when leaders don't lead with that, and and let's say leader tends to be very lenient, you know, instead of correcting, they say grace, and you're kind of lenient, very lenient on stuff. I think that caused people to drift away. You they they end up drifting away from you because you're so lenient, but then at the same time, if you're one that's always crushing or very hasty in something that caused people to shut down because you come at them in that way, they begin to shake they they shut down. So you so what I need then is that balance. What's that balance? I need that truth and that tenderness, I need that correction with dot crushing. I need the beal with that breaking.

Why Grace Matters For Culture And Burnout

Pastor Dowell 15:37

I love it, man. You cooking, man. What you cooking with? I hope it's some healthy or olive oil. Don't use the old Crisco, man. Don't cook with Crisco, man. You use two or three times. Don't cook with that. It tastes like your chicken tastes like fish. You cooking, man. I love it. So we we're seeing now uh uh what what what grace is that we do need to correct. That's why I said we gotta deal with this. Uh Maris Moses, break this word down, break grace down from a leadership because people get out of balance. And when you say that crushing versus correcting, that's what I'm talking about. People get battered and bruised. Yeah, that's right. They never got taught. They was trying to correct, Pastor C. I jotted it down. Yeah, their heart was their heart was to correct, like you said, but they crushed, and people end up battered and bruised. Why? Because they didn't talk, they didn't do it with grace. Then, as you talked about uh ministries, uh, it comes stagnant and stale, whatever. Why? It's because that's the backwards trending because they didn't have that balance. I love that. And and so how we do it, you got to balance truth uh with with with tenderness. And I believe, God, as we kind of walk this down, God's gonna give us some wisdom and insight because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, I believe, is gonna wake up in these leaders, how they can uh can navigate that, and that's I get why this really matters, then, Pastor C. Well, we we look at why this matter, I believe, because grace and leadership, it what it does, it creates a culture, as you were saying, where people can recover, they can rebuild and rise again within your church, your auxiliary, your ministry. Whenever level you're you're dealing with people, inevitably they're gonna be people that make mistakes, they're gonna fall short of the standards, like we fall short of God's glory on the spiritual side, they're gonna come short of your standards, of the expectations of what you have set and what you have agreed upon and what they agreed upon. And if we don't have this working in our framework from the beginning, then what we'll do, we'll end up crushing people not knowing it. And so you got to realize grace creates that culture so people can recover, rebuild, and rise again. A lack of grace, it'll create the frustration and stagnation. Leaders will get frustrated and they'll give up on people because people have met expectation. Then people will stop moving because they feel condemned. That's why a lot of leaders say, Go, get out the way. I do it myself. I wish I had better people. I'd rather just do it by myself, go. And you'll think that you have a Gideon mentality, but it's not a Gideon mentality. What you're doing, you're running people away because you didn't have uh grace uh to see them through it. And so I think that happens, and and we get rigid, we get legalistic with the law with our policies, with our standards. We need them, but we got to operate in it from a place of grace, not law. Like when it comes to our salvation, that that there's there's God could God wants us to be holy and live holy, and there's still standards, but we apply it not from a law standpoint, but from a grace perspective. Not not that I have to, no, I get to and I'm empowered to do it. I'm empowered, it's a grace, not a law, and that's how we have to have what our standards is from that standpoint. And so I like to put it this way, and I don't know if I heard you say it, but it kind of rose within me, Pastor C. So let me know that you say it, but it's having high standards but soft heart.

Pastor Cornelius 19:18

Yes, did you mention that? Yes, yes, yes.

Moses, Sufficiency Of Grace, And Teams

Pastor Dowell 19:20

I thought that that was ringing in me when I was thinking about that. It brought that back up, it's having a high standard, but a a soft heart, right? But wrapped in accountability. That's grace, high standard, soft heart, wrapped in accountability, because people will make mistakes, they will make mistakes. So I think this is why this matters because we don't want a backwards ministry where we're out of balance, like you said, and and anything goes. There's no standard, there's no movement, but then we don't want to be on the other side where people are battered and bruised. And sometimes you don't find out till it's too late until they jumped off the ship. So I think we need to have a balance in this. So let's look at this. Go ahead. You had a comment, Pastor C.

Pastor Cornelius 20:09

Yeah. I think we when you says why does it matter? What why it's essential? I think if it it makes you also a leader, I think grace keeps a leader steady. It keeps you steady. And what I mean without it, what you just brought up, see with that grace, are you recognizing the need of it? Or without you giving it, you do become, like you said, you become frustrated. So without grace, frustration builds. And I think it goes from frustration to burnout. Uh, you know, burn all of a sudden burnouts. Uh, you find yourself burning out, set in because you get the mentality of what you said, just move out of the way. I do it myself. The frustration leads to the burnout. So now you say, Ah, I got this. You ain't got to worry about it, I got it. And then after that, I think people become displaced. People that should be in a certain place become displaced because of the way you handled them because you didn't you didn't use grace, you're not steady, because you're not steady and you don't have grace, you you don't got frustrated with people because you don't recognize that what we when we walk in grace, we recognize that people are there for growth. We're there to grow people. Grace helps us to recognize that people are in the growing stage. That means it's part of part of this grace. Shows it's a process, people are in the process. Grace helped you to recognize the process and recognize the key is they got to grow. But we already expecting people to be a certain way, so we don't show them any grace. And because we don't show any grace, once again, I repeat myself frustration comes in on you. You're not steady, you get frustration, and then burnout. I feel like burnout set in, and now people become displaced. I think all of that takes place, is because of that. So, what in a nutshell, I think grace gives people room to grow. I really do. I think that's what grace does, it gives room for growth, and that's what sustain the team. And I think that's how a team stays and lasts longer because of grace. I do. I think I think that's what keeps us the deal through the long haul, is because of grace, because I recognize people can grow.

Pastor Dowell 22:31

Man, I love it, I love it. I I think we see this burnout in the life of Moses. Why we have to have a leadership grace, boy, because he didn't have a leadership grace, he he came to a place of frustration.

Pastor Cornelius 22:48

Yes, he did with the people, yeah.

Parenting Parallel: Firm But Fair

G.R.A.C.E. Framework In Practice

Pastor Dowell 22:50

And see what happened is if you just if you just operate in patience, your patience will run out. I'm run out of because what happens is you get to a point, and I've been there where you feel like I've been patient, I've been understanding, but patience and understanding has its limit, but grace is sufficient. It wasn't by patience and understanding where we saved, it was grace, it's a keeper, it's sufficient, it's enough. So if you just try to be a good leader and be patient and understand it, that'll only take you so far. Some have more than others, but when it runs out, that's when you bring down the quote unquote hammer, that's when you bring down the law. Why? Because I've I hey, I've been patient long enough, I dealt with this long enough, and now it's not that you don't deal with it, but it's how it's dealing with it with grace, and that's what happened with Moses. He he ended up at that point, and that's why he striked the rock, and so he missed out. Whoa, my God. See, you can disqualify yourself if you don't operate. That's why we got to be closed with grace because you're gonna have stiff-necked, rebellious people that's not gonna keep their word, that's not gonna live up there to the full potential. And in order to lead a and whatever level you're leading in, in order for you to sustain, God said, My grace is sufficient. If not, your your auxiliary, your church, whatever the thing that God birthed you, it'll be a throne in your flesh. And and the reason it's thrown in your flesh because you got to deal with people, and that's why we got to get this grace thing. And I think another thing that comes to mind, I was hearing you deal with this, Pastor C, where people say, Gone, I got it, I'll do it. That's a leader, because now you you're not functioning with synergy, you're trying to do it all yourself, or with one or two people that you can count on. You got your little, and now you'll wear them out because you didn't have grace for everybody else, you will wear your your inner circle out because you ran away the other people because you didn't have grace for them, because they didn't show up the way you thought they should, or the way they said they would, but you still have to have grace. And I'm gonna say this too, I think is important, Pastor C, that a person can operate like this and be passive aggressive as well. Just not the type A person that's going off who don't have grace. You can be smiling and and tender-hearted, passive aggressive, non-confrontational, but at the same time, you won't have grace for people, but you kind of you still got them. You you don't fool with them, you don't deal with them. It's like the person who just go ahead and cook the meal and cook all the Thanksgiving meal by themselves, they just didn't make a big thing about it. They didn't run everybody out of the kitchen, but you still did it though, you still did it on your own by yourself, and that's a recipe for failure. So, I love that. I love that, I think that's so good. Now, let's look at then how if we go, how do how do you how does this look like in in in practicality in ministry in church? Oh, thank you, Lord. I say this in life. Okay, I think I want to say this, it hit me. I'm glad this came back to me. I think it'll help us because it hit me when you were speaking. Is this that we look at grace? If we don't have grace, we can many times see it retrospectively as parents. When our children are sometimes grown and gone, and now we're dealing with grandkids. What do you mean that you realize that as a parent, if you fail to walk in grace with your children, you have some regrets in your in the way that you dealt with them in coming up. Not that you shouldn't have held them accountable, not that you shouldn't have standards, but it's like this a, and I heard one man of God talking about this when he looked about when he talked about with his children, is this it's like I wish I would have had a more understanding ear. I would have I would have let them express their feelings and their emotions, even though they might have been negative, even though they might be in the left field. I wish I would have had a little more gracious space so that they can share, so that I can gracefully help stir them in the right direction, help the mentality instead of like you're talking crazy. You that's that's that's you you don't know nothing. You're only 15. You know, you we many times parents didn't deal with it with grace. Not that you ignore it, not that you don't say anything, you don't go in the room, but many parents have that mentality. Man, they tore up the room when stuff wasn't right. They went to school and yanked them out of school and said, What is this I found in your room? What is this I found on the internet? And we've seen some parents what they did didn't deal with grace, put their kids on live stream and embarrass them because they were doing some stuff that was totally wrong, shouldn't have been done, but they didn't deal with it with grace, and that's how we end up battered and bruised. It's not that you don't deal with it. Well, my my son he took the car and they this I was out of town, they had a crazy party. I'm seeing that my daughter's having sex, and they know that they got people in my house, had a boy in my not that you don't deal with it, but it's it's the grace, and I think when you don't do that, you sever relationships as a spouse and all of that. See, so I think that it's that same pattern that happens with ministry as well.

Pastor Cornelius 28:39

That's good, that's good, man. So, what I'm hearing then, grace is firm, but fair, and then meaning what else I hear you saying for this like the parents that mean it it listens, grace listens before before passing any judgment. But sometimes as parents, we don't listen, we already judge it, we already see it, we don't show any grace, but grace listens before judging it. We firm, we firm, but we fair. It's how I see grace. And grace is where I can be I can be gentle, but ground it. I'm grounded in those things the right, and I want to get you grounded in it, but I'm gentle. I think all that. So, in other words, I can correct without condemning. I correct you, but I'm but I but I ain't finna condemn you. You know, like that, you know, that good leader down to me. If they really walk in the grace, they end up saying, You missed it, but I still believe in you. I I I you know, I know we use at the end deal with that. I just had a situation with one with very young with one of our young leaders, and she missed that, but it was something on a personal basis that she was doing, she was frustrated, and she was saying she was trying to make me a lace proud of her, but she messed up in something and she didn't make the grace she wanted and told her, Okay, you missed it. We see it, but I know you're great, you're still great, needed to show grace because I felt like she was putting so much pressure on herself because she was trying to do everything she could to make us proud of her. So we were trying to let her know we're proud of you. You our us being proud of you ain't based upon your grade. Whether you get an A or C, no, we're still proud of you, we're proud of you, so we were functioning grace. Yeah, you missed that. You didn't do that right, you missed it, but I still believe in you, still believe in you, and I think that's how that's that's our grace grace flow. It listens, listen before it passes judgment. It takes time to listen.

Pastor Dowell 31:05

Man, I I hope ministers are picking up what we're putting down, having that good balance with grace all from the beginning. The truth and tenderness, it's balancing truth birth is tenderness, it's balancing being firm versus being fair, it's balancing being gentle and making sure people are grounded, it's balancing correcting without condemning. I think all that that's when we when we are aware of the two extremes. I think people get out of balance when they're not aware because some people only focus on the one extreme, the correct, that the truth, uh, to be firm. But then we have other people that are out of balance with grace when they just so focused on being gentle, but that you weren't making sure that your team was grounded.

Pastor Cornelius 31:55

That's good.

Pastor Dowell 31:56

You you're so could so consumed about yeah, that's right. We need love, we we need we need love, but people have to be led and people need to be corrected. We don't want to condemn people. No, you don't want to condemn, but people still have to be corrected. So that's why I said if you if you out, if you're on one extreme, people gonna get beat up and battered and bruised. But if you're on the other extreme, your ministry is gonna stall out, and people you're gonna have backwards trending, you're not gonna have no standards why because you didn't deal with anything, you was a weak and a passive leader, and so I think that we have to see where we are and our leadership and evaluate ourselves. Which one do we need to be more mindful of? See, see, some got to balance out on the on the on the tenderness side, some more on the truth side, and I think when we aware of that, then we can walk without falling and getting uh in the in the ditch.

Pastor Cornelius 32:49

So so we have to learn how to correct with compassion because we still correct, but how do you what that look like? I think to me, what that looked like now is is separating the issue from the person, and sometimes we can't do that. You have to separate the issue from the individual. This the individual, this is the issue, but still, this is the individual. So when you do that, you deal with what happened, but you don't destroy who did it. I deal with what they did, but I don't destroy them. Okay, so biblical Jesus, Jesus, we do like Jesus. What are you talking about, Pasty? Jesus corrected Peter. Get ye behind me, he corrected Peter, but he also restored him. Peter messed up. Who he asked for when he resurrected by Peter, he restored Peter. That's grace in motion. I call that grace in motion. That we learn how to separate, separate the issue from the individual. We don't we we help them, we know it, we correct it, you deal with what happened, but you don't destroy who did it.

Move, Reposition, Or Remove Without Trauma

Pastor Dowell 34:13

Well, I love it, and that gets us out of out of out of emotion. I I like to put it this way a framework for grace, G-R-A-C-E grace, that it deals with growth, redemption, attitude, correction, and excellence. Growth, meaning that you give people space and time to develop. That's grace. I'm gonna you're gonna give them space to grow and develop. Some need more time than others. Then it's about redemption, allowing people to learn, to have failures, and to have restoration, but then it's about your attitude, meaning that your attitude and how you go about, especially when you have to correct, when you have to deal with truth, when you have to hold people accountable, when you have to be firm, it's your attitude about doing it, it's how you do it, it's not always what you do, it's a it's an attitude of grace, and here this, and we might deal with a little bit farther. We deal with some mistakes, Pastor C. It's not embarrassing people. See, you you'll being graceful by not checking them in public. That's correct. That's grace. You because you you had a right, if you wanted to, that you really could have just checked them in public, but grace calls you to deal with it in private, not humiliating people. I know, and we get out of balance with the quote unquote open rebuke, and so I think it's the attitude, not embarrassing or humiliating people, but then the C in grace is correction, address the wrong with wisdom, but not with a weapon. Oh, that's good. I want to deal with it with wisdom, not a weapon. So it's not about punishing action, but it is it is fruit-producing actions, not about punishment, but I'm doing this to help produce the proper fruit in you. Solid attitude, not trying to punish you, but this is to produce fruit in you, so now even your corrective actions become redemptive in nation and nature, like we say with people who in natural incarceration that you want them to be rehabilitated. You so you do things in your disciplinary actions to really redeem them, not to uh uh to humiliate them, but to make them better. Then I think too, the E, it's all about excellence. See, grace is it's founded on excellence, meaning that you expect people to rise. Grace is never an excuse for mediocrity, so that's why we don't want to be get it twisted. That's grace, that that is a standard, and and and grace, we're gonna hire you to it. So, grace means you don't move on too soon from people. Here that's the that's the balancing word, Pastor C. I say you don't move on too soon. Maybe my deal with mistakes. See, some mistakes sometimes, sometimes it's a mistake that you didn't move on at all. That what that's misapplied, grace. See that that's what I'm saying. The other side, why you're going backwards because you kept some people in the boat too long, and that's why everything ended up wrong. If you don't ask me, just talk to talk to Jonah about that. Jonah was on the boat, and it was causing problems for everybody in the boat. The storm ceased when Jonah got off the boat. Sometimes people need to get off the boat. Yeah, it's good, but it's not about you getting them off the boat, but it's how you get them out and when you get them out.

Pastor Cornelius 38:08

There you go.

Pastor Dowell 38:08

Because sometimes you can get the wrong people out because you didn't have grace, balance properly, but then other times you left some people on there too soon because you were passive, you you was a passive leader, afraid of confrontation, don't want to deal with conflict, don't want to, don't want to stir the waters. You you you're creating a backward, you're you won't go anywhere. And what happens is if you're if you're that type of passive leader that's uh it that's out of balance with being tender, that's out of balance with being uh so concerned, what you out of balance with dealing with people's feeling, you lose good people, man.

Pastor Cornelius 38:48

You're cooking, yes, sir.

Paul, Barnabas, And John Mark

Pastor Dowell 38:50

Because good people feel like this is this is a low standard, this is not people are not held accountable. Why am I giving my best when others don't have to? So there's a there's a wisdom balance in that. I like to put it this way: see, when we talk about uh uh uh walking that out, is because sometimes grace, I said grace is means you move on from people not too soon, but sometimes you got to move on. So let me try to walk this out. I look at it this way one time is a mistake, so you don't that's great. If you if you're dealing with people and you move on with people off of one mistake, yeah, that's kind of out of bounds. That's not graceful, and uh and and and when you do that, I made that mistake sometime because you can think, well, this was so egregious that it it warranted moving on. Was it or was that just in your standard? Was that your did they break your pet peeve? But that's your pet peeve, and that and so that that's why we have to have that grace mentality because sometimes it could be things that it's not a deal breaker, and but you you made it a deal breaker, maybe. You told everybody it was a deal breaker, but should that have been a deal breaker? That's where grace comes in sometimes. Grace in your policy twice is a problem, three times is a pattern, and so now when we get into patterns and you're letting patterns go on, now you're out of balance. If you're dealing with on the problem level, you're not in balance. So I think grace gives people time to self-correct but recognize there's patterns that need intervention. So grace doesn't mean you keep everybody in every position, sometimes grace is repositioning people so that they can succeed. That's grace. I have enough grace for you that I'm gonna put you in a position so you can succeed. I'm not gonna let you flounder if we're using sports and we both like football, right? And you're trying to catch the ball, and you're you're not good at catching, but you good, you good. Maybe we need to put you at tight end so you don't have to catch as much, and your passes are different types of passes, and you are big and you can block, or we might just put you on the line, or you got good speed, we're gonna put you at DN and use your athletic athleticism where you don't have to use your hand to catch. So I I when you when we frame it that way, that I am operating in grace by moving you so you can succeed, and it's how I go about it. So am I hearing that's in grace, Pastor C.

Pastor Cornelius 41:30

Am I hearing then that grace grace is needed? I great, it's great to have grace, and you're able to value my value. You value how you can value my value with grace. If not, you do what what you just described with the tiny end with catching the ball. Grace helped you to value them so I can move them. Because it ain't time to move on from them. Because I I see I see what you val I see what you're worth, your value. So, what grace helped me to do put you over here, just gonna catch the ball differently, like you said. I'm gonna put you over here. That's what Grace does, but with got the balance of that not having grace, you say, I'm putting you off the boat, I'm getting rid of you. And like you say, now it's too quick. But you did that because you had no grace, but yet at the same time, you don't want to lower the standard. That's the other thing. I don't want to lower the standard by letting you keep getting away with dropping the ball. So I got grace keeps me from lowering the standards, but what and what ends up happening, I still have to correct you because the point for the accountability is so we can get is to protect the purpose. See, accountability helps me protect the purpose that's there. If I have no accountability, I cannot fulfill what my purpose, what that ministry, the purpose of it, because you have no countability there. So the stem is drop, and what your purpose is, it's not protected. So I must have accountability, but with the countability, I have grace.

Public Modeling, Private Correction

Pastor Dowell 43:18

Yeah, I I love it. I love it. And what happens is I love how you put that, uh, Pastor C, because that's that's part of the the the balancing typerope with it that you realize grace that is grace reposition them because sometimes we think it's either or yes, either I just tolerate it or I I I get rid of them. So the people who are passive, they don't want conflict, they they don't they don't want uh fireworks. So what they'll do, they won't deal with it at all, and when they deal with it, it's like that person who's either they're at zero or they're at a hundred. And so now that they're dealing with it, it's like you don't want to make your mama mad or your daddy mad, because when they get get there, they're gonna really be there, and they almost feel justified in that. And I kind of maybe in one season of my life was kind of like that because I was dealing with people from a patient perspective. Ran out of patience like now, now it I almost had the mentality, it's like I uh uh I never ran from conflict, didn't really look for it, but I wasn't afraid to deal with it, right? I now I would deal with it, but what happened is when you have when you don't have a grace perspective, you have a patience, then you feel like now you're almost justified when you go off, right? You you feel almost justified when you bring down the hammer because like you deserve this now, yeah. Because because I've been patient with you, yeah, and grace gives you what you don't deserve. That's good because you see what happened is see, even the people who are not just like they feel justified and throwing the book at people because they felt like I've been patient and I and I've been waiting. You know, it's like that parent, old school. I've been patient and you don't got in trouble. Now you're not just disciplining them, you're abusing them because now you got an extension cord. Now you're you're hitting because he done ran his mouth one too many times. Now I'm gonna show them who the man, I'm gonna show that I'm the mom. You you're you're fighting, you're you're you're hitting him. Why? Because I've been patient and they ran their mouth one too many times. See, see that and so now you go from extreme, where maybe you should have been correcting and dealing with it all along before it got to that that that crucial point, or when you dealt with it, you dealt with it in the right way. So, what happens is grace gives you the ability to see their value. I like that the value of their value. Because, see, without grace, you don't value their value, all you see is their mistakes. They drop the ball. Let's see, they dropped the ball and they don't drop the ball before, they didn't keep their word, they're not accountable, so now you're done with them. Get them off my team. I don't want to fool with them, and now you're now that's why you're flying circles, but then if you're just passive and you let things go on, you'll fly in circles as as well. And this is how I like to put it this way what's helped me. Now we've talked about this before. Well, we can see some practical ways we implement it. I look at how grace is lead in leadership is this it's not being bloody, yeah. Meaning that because see all of us come from the from the mindset of I'm gonna, I don't mind dealing with conflict, I don't mind dealing with people. As we have staff, if I have to fire them, my mentality as a CEO was always like, That's why you the CEO. That comes with the territory. It's kind of like I remember watching, you know, those uh what do they call it when the NFL when they show the beginning of the seasons? The uh like hard knocks, hard knocks, and when it comes to a player, the coach bring them in. And I realize that's the mentality you have to have when you have staff, you have employees. It's like you can't shy away from that. Bring them in there, look them in the eye, don't hide behind other people and like bring your playbook and sit them down and let them know this is this is it, it's the end of the row. So I had the mentality, I didn't mind doing that. But what happens is I didn't have a grace mentality and just share what I believe is important, and then now you can make things bloody, and even though I didn't never suffer from being passive, but I could be bloody, meaning that you you if someone needs correction, you got to do it in a way that's not traumatic or embarrassing. Yes, yes. I never really try to embarrass people, but you can be it can make it traumatic. And best way I I do this, and we've talked about this before, Pastor C is this if a if a person being like it's let's say you have a limb, it's gonna kill the whole body, your arm. It's like it's gonna tox it. So we got to get rid of it. If it comes to a place that something has to be removed, first the first place of grace is does it have to be removed? Can we move it to another if we remove it? Can we move it to another position? That's grace, and it takes grace to pray, to think, to strategize, and I love what you said to value their value so that you can put them in a place that they can't succeed. So now when you move them, you're dealing with the aspect of where we're moving, what becomes the subject, not that you're being removed, but where you're being moved to.

Pastor Cornelius 48:47

That's good.

Bloody vs Silent Leadership Pitfalls

Pastor Dowell 48:48

The subject becomes not what you're not good at and where you drop the ball and why we can't count on you. The subject of it is this is where we need you at, and this is where you can flourish at. To do that, it takes grace because it takes time to value their value, find out where they can fit. It's not that you're you are being sensitive to people's feeling, but not over the mission. But because you are gracious, you do take that, you realize that they are human, you do realize that they value, and so you take time to pray to see is there somewhere else maybe that we can put them where they can succeed. That's all a part of grace, Pastor C.

Pastor Cornelius 49:25

That's true. Now, I keep hearing biblically with what keep ringing in my ear is three names Paul, Barnabas, John Ma. I think what you just got through describing. Paul came in, and Paul, the first approach, because of the one mistake, like John Ma turned around the first on that first missionary journey. Paul turned around on the second one, he was bloody. So he ain't going. We cut him, get him off the ship. Bonabas, which means encourage her. Bonabas took him and encouraged him. But John Mart learned from that. Now, as you know, Paul comes back later. And Paul now speaking grace, and Paul speaks on how John Ma. He asked about John Ma. He wants John Ma. After Bonable took the time to show him grace so that John Ma would be willing to go back on the field. Bonable took him with him, otherwise, John Ma could have ended up saying, I ain't doing this, can't do this no more. Because Paul said, I'm I'm not good enough, I can't do it. John Bongo said, No, I take him now, and then later after growth, what happened? Now Paul said, Send me, John Mark. Send me John Mark. And so I think the whole key down is timing, and you kept you said something earlier. It's not just what I do, how you do it, when you do it. All of that plays a role with leading with grace, and at the same time having the balance to know about confronting. I think people struggle with confronting a lot of times because it's it has been used wrong and negatively. So people kind of struggle with that, it has been mishandled, I should say. But I think that when you're confronting, and it's done, if it's done right, if you do it right, it's caring. I confront you because I care. It's like you're saying, I love you too much to let this slip by. I love you too much. I once again, what I said earlier with the grace, I see the potential. You might not be there, but I see the potential, and I love you too much, so that's why I'm confronting you. So I'm gonna still have to confront you. I'm gonna confront you, but I'm doing it the right way, and that's why I think timing is important. And then the other thing, as a leader, you got to always ask yourself, what's the motive behind it? What's your motive as that leader? Why, what, why are you doing what what's your true motive behind it? And then some things you have to look at and say, does it really do matter? What's your motive? Does it really matter? And then what's most important to destroy a person or to try to keep the team together? What's most important for you to say, since I'm the man head man in charge, I'm I'm the leader, I'm gonna destroy a leader. Because I'm the leader, so you got to check your motive out. All of that plays with if you're gonna give gracefully as you lead, you're gonna give grace because at the end of the day, down, at the end of the day, the word of God says every morning we get new mercy, every morning we wake up with new mercy, and God gives it so we got to get God's perspective with how we lead people, his perspective, not just how we see it, but how do we see it?

Avoidance Breeds Confusion

Roots Of Extremes And Culture-Building

Pastor Dowell 53:37

I love it. I I love it. That's giving it grace for redemption, letting people fall forward. I love that example with with Paul, John Mark, and Barnabas, and the scripture says that the contention between them was so much that Paul and Barnabas no longer walk together. That's right, you don't see them no more, do you? And who was the one that reached out when people wasn't accepting Paul when they had to put him down in a basket trying to kill him? Barnabas, the encourager, and see, but Paul, because of his standards, and later on he gets this revelation of grace, it changed. Yeah, he he was about the standard, so it's not that we don't, but there's a balance, and what happened is it became bloody. Yes, it caused a separation. Not that you don't deal with it. We're not saying don't deal. So we're just gonna let people no, no, no, how you do it, when you do it, and the way you do it. Sometimes we move too soon, some things would have played themselves out, some people would have redeemed themselves, so too soon. Sometimes it's it's the how you did it. Yes, you did it with the wrong attitude, you did it with anger, you did it from a frustrated people. Know when you're frustrated with them, the way you talk with them, the way you were short with them, the way you dealt with them, or you were so passive, they felt bad. You didn't even look them in the eye, so that felt some kind of way you were so passive with it, you sent other people to deal with it. Instead of being a leader, and you sit down and talk and talk and looking people in the eyeball, and it's bloody. That's why I said if something needs to be removed, can we put it somewhere else? But then sometimes it got to be removed, doesn't have to be bloody. If if an arm got to be removed, see and you say it's killing the body, you don't have to you can you can cut it off with a uh a hatchet, yeah. You you can get you can get an axe, you can get a saw and saw it off, or you can put them in the surgery, yes, put them to sleep, amputated it, and they wake up. Same the the same bottom line, the arm is gone. Man, but one is more traumatic, Pastor C. Yes, one is trauma, one it can affect them mentally, emotionally for a lifetime, cause PSTD. Why? Because it was so dramatic, and many times that's where people get hurt in church and leadership because leaders didn't have a grace thing, and things came out bloody, the way you dealt with it, your timing, your attitude, and you didn't have a grace thing, uh, deal with. And so that's why uh we have to look at it that we want to remove it in a way that's not embarrassing and a way that's not traumatic. That takes prayer, that's why it's all about the whole prayer, wisdom, and all of that, so that way we can deal with this. It doesn't mean that everybody's gonna like you, leader. It's this is not about being pleased with people like everybody liking you, or leading by consensus, everybody agreeing with you, agreeing with you, right? No, uh-uh. But but but it's it's making sure you're doing it in a way where it is less traumatic. And I think I think that's uh that's how we go about dealing with it with grace is how, when, and the way we deal with it. Because sometimes some people have been just they embarrass people, right? Correct. They put them on front street, uh, they they're short with them. I think how we see this implemented within the in within the body, Pastor C, uh, as well. Is I think we need to model this out. Grace has to be uh done publicly and privately. I agree how you handle people will show how they handle each other. So as you as the leader or a leader, and that's why we got to model with your whatever auxiliary. Well, they should have came to chop practice knowing the song. Usher should have known we're wearing this uniform. Ministers should have known that this is our protocol for this. They know that if you're gonna be late, I know it's not what, and it's not how it's how you deal with it. Like you said, it's having that language. I uh I believe in you, I see your potential, I care about you, and how you go about doing it, and that takes uh a wisdom. And if God, I pray that those that are listening, but I say, I pray even now that there be a grace released over these leaders to deal with difficult people. Yeah, I pray that there uh uh through this podcast, whether you watch or listen, there be a uh uh uh enablement that move you past being patient, that move you past uh being passive, that push you into a balance that you can do it and lead with with a grace of God, and it's grace is sufficient, and then you can handle what you thought that you couldn't handle. And you now you're a flying soar, and you won't fly in circles because of that. So, I think grace has to be done publicly and privately. We have to teach on grace, we have to teach on it and let your culture know that grace is not weakness, but it's leadership maturity. It takes a mature person to walk this out because it takes prayer, it takes understanding, it takes emotional maturity, take you getting out of your feelings, taking you to walk in balance. And so I think when we do that, we'll be able to make sure we we have grace, and I think it needs to be in our policy that we're consistent and compassionate with the way we discipline and direction and give direction. Then we got to have grace in our process, how we restore people, how we review certain things, how we reposition people. So that's the grace in our our process. When things happen, we do it gracefully. Not that we ignore it, but whenever something happens, we're gonna deal with grace, and then the way we have our policy. So I think that's what has to happen. And and I think we can see this happening in church, and I think this is why this conversation uh was so crucial, Pastor. See, because we really never deal with it uh from a leadership uh uh perspective. What do you see in terms of mistakes or whatever that you see leaders make uh and when it made in terms of grace? And I I realized with me, I didn't even have a mentality of dealing with grace when it comes in terms of leadership. I didn't even have that mindset, and that got me out of balance. Where I think I dealt with things uh uh uh bloody, but where now my mindset, I'm gonna deal with things, but the way I deal with it, the attitude I deal with it, how I deal with it, I deal with it from a grace, and the results have been night and day. Don't mean everybody's gonna like you, don't mean everybody gonna agree with you, don't mean people may not leave from you in their season apart from you, but I've saw a massive difference in in terms of things, and then sometimes because of grace, there's some things that really you you you it's how you go about dealing with them and the way you deal with them.

Pastor Cornelius 1:00:52

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, one of the things that you said that stuck out, and I when I look back over me and Lee, I think I I had that I I was doing it like you say, more with patience, and I would run out of patience with you, and I wasn't bloody, but I what I but I was a silent killer. I killed I killed you, your spirit and all. I did it through silence. I was like, it is what it is, I'm done with you. I I I I wouldn't I wasn't bloody, but I killed you with I was a silent, silent. So you know, like the gun when they were shooting it and they put a silencer on it when it kid, it it's gonna key, but it's just through silence. Nobody else don't hear it, nobody else don't know it, but I'm done with you. Because I ran out of my patience, because I'm like, come on, man, when you're gonna get it right, I kept and I ran out of patience. So some that so that was my thing, and I seen a big change when I learned how to deal with it in grace, and seriously died. I recognize that people are people, and that I needed grace.

Pastor Dowell 1:02:08

What's the difference in how you dealt with it? I love that you dealt with it in silence. I was bloody, meaning that this is I this is how I would say bloody would be, meaning that I wasn't afraid to let the sparks fly. What do you mean sparks fly to bring you in a room? Yeah, tell you what I feel because why? Because I'm not gonna hold back the the fight. If it's firing you or or or or holding you accountable or telling what I see wrong, I had no problem sharing that and looking at you in your eyeball and and and and you know, dealing with stuff like what am I hearing? What is this going on? And I felt like that was more bloody because I wasn't tender, I wasn't tender, like you said, I wasn't soft-hearted. I think you can still do all of that, Pastor C, but from the right attitude. Because I I I did this, and I just want to share this transparent to help people. It's it's all from your attitude that makes the difference, meaning that what God showed me when He delivered me from this and gave me mindset that what I would do, not knowing it, I would put people in corners. And you know what happened if you back people in the corner? Sometimes they're gonna either uh they they're gonna surrender or they come out fighting, yeah. And so I would bag people in corners, and I'm thinking, like, surrender, show me you do you know. I mean, really if you show me humility, we'll get up out of this. But if you if if if you that it said, knock if you buck, if not now, we're gonna go around and that that wasn't God because I I realized you shouldn't have put them in a corner. You put people in a position where they had to either have fight or flight, yeah. And if you get somebody that's gonna fight, now it's bloody, and then even when it was flight, you've hurt them, you've wounded them, you've broken their spirit, they've lost a level of trust in you, they didn't fight you, and they unquote humbled and you moved on, but they now they got a hurt that lingers on. Yeah, yeah, they got a true hurt that lingers on, and from that day, I always say this they take your picture off the wall, you're not in the water no more, and you've lost their heart. And sometimes it may take months or years, that's right. That tree will wither, and that fruit will most of the time die, and you can lose relationships like that because you the way you dealt with it. So I learned from that, Pastor C. I hope that really helps somebody. That's the bloody part. Can you help us from the silent part? The silent part of changes you made. So I change now that I still deal with it, but I deal with it with a grace that if we do have to move on and part ways or whatever, we can do it with a handshake that there's nothing I regret saying, or how I did it, or how I made you feel humiliated, value, not valued. It's all in your wording and your attitude.

Pastor Cornelius 1:05:09

The the part for the silence, the difference in what you were talking about, what you did. What I did is that I moved on from you. I I got to the point where I wouldn't call on you, I wouldn't want to do anything because I was silently killing you. And it was like you, you, you trying to reach out. Oh, what I did, I wouldn't even deal with what you you know. I don't want to talk about it no more. I'm done such and such doing what you was doing. So that that's what I mean by the silent part is that by me saying nothing, but is that better though?

Pastor Dowell 1:05:46

Because at least you're not, you know, you know, don't seem like people mad. I have people may mad with me, you know.

Pastor Cornelius 1:05:52

Of course, they they mad.

Pastor Dowell 1:05:55

I'm a bad person, you know what I mean? I got blood on my hand, man. You know, I got blood on my hand. I still got you know, blood. People, you know, you got blood on your hand now.

High Standards With Graceful Implementation

Closing, Resources, And Reviews

Pastor Cornelius 1:06:03

Yeah, but but no, that no, the reason why that's not better is because I was messed up eternal wise on the inside of me. I'm still holding stuff, so now I don't I I don't allow the situation to cause me to become unforgiving. It caused me not to show any grace. So, no, that's not the better thing. All I did was suppress it, and I put them in that same way. Some of what you say about biking them up, you pushed them into the wall. But I dealt with something I felt like more deeply. I got in their soul because that's what I was destroying. I was out to hurt your soul. You know, I might ain't push you, but I was out to hurt your soul because you was doing everything and you had no idea. Pastor didn't like this. I passed ain't past the said nothing to me. So, hey, no, I ain't said I'm done with you. So, what I supposed to do, oh what? So, in that way, now what I had to learn how to do down and how with correction, of course, by the help of the Lord, had to get to the point, and once again, that's why I said it earlier. Start realizing that that it's about the person, it's the person, it's the individual, it's not just the issue that's what I had to deal with because I was so test test-oriented, and I was a hard worker way. I want to show you I can do it without you. So that the frustration comes. I find myself not working all the time because I'm trying to do I'm trying to do three jobs. One man trying to do three, four jobs because I wasn't really to delegate to you anymore. So on the inside, I'm angry with you, I'm mad with you in a sense. I'm we cool, but deep down rooted in me, this bringing on more on me. So I so somebody else might get the frustration. Truth be told, Lady C, my wife might end up with the frustration because I'm coming home frustrated and tired, uh, coming from a meeting because some a leader wasn't doing the thing I wanted done, and I'm through with them, so I'm doing it. So I'm bringing all that home. So so I really didn't have peace. So that's where the killing part was. So, what I had to work on is once again, these are people, they make mistakes just like you. If God take away his grace, prel you in trouble. So that so I built it into our culture. I it how built it into our culture. Number one, I start modeling the way it's supposed to be. You brought that up earlier. As a leader, you got the model that you got to model grace. I started showing grace intentionally. I let people know I appreciate them. I did most celebrating of people, recognize it's it's the individual. We still confront, we still deal with things is not right, but at the same time, I celebrate. I start you, you have to model it because people repeat what they see their leader demonstrate. I'm a firm believer that people a the if what the leader does, a leader will begin to find themselves repeating what they see you doing. People you're leading, so to all of the leaders, what I'm saying to you, what whatever whatever they see you demonstrate, that's what they find themselves repeating. So take ownership to your mistakes. So it was some mistakes made that I had to start owning up to, maybe because I like the community good communication skills. That's why I go into solid mode. So one of the things helped me I start communicating better. I intentionally started listening, not just trying to get my point over, but I became a better communicator. I wouldn't let other people hide behind. No, tell me how you feel. Seriously, how you feel? We might not agree, but still, I need to know how you feel. I intentionally got out of the silence mode because that that would totally that would totally forgive me. I started learning to forgive quickly, all right, and then to correct privately. I always made sure I don't want to do that publicly because even publicly, people can sense it in the room because of the looks on my face. He might pass not might not be saying that, but I could tell you see how he looked. I heard him before say Pastor could give you a look, he'll give you a look. I had to work on all of that, so then if I need to correct, I'd rather do it and I do it for the betterment of the team and that individual, I do it privately. And from that, I learned grace, and I found out what you said earlier. Grace is not weakness. Because no, do I feel I'm otherwise weak, weak? No, but I do think we have a stronger ministry because that's our culture. Grace is our culture, so I expected out all the leaders because they seen the leader do it, all my other leaders, the other leaders that lead now, the different auxiliaries, all those leaders, they operate in grace because they see me operating grace.

Pastor Dowell 1:11:29

Man, I I think that's that's that's phenomenal. Because when you say that silent killer, I see that can be you know that's psychological warfare. Well, a person in no man's land, yeah, they're wondering, like, I I I'm put out and I don't even know. So neither one of them gains so man gains, the past you ain't help nobody too because you didn't have a big fallout or blow up. They can't take uh it's kind of like in a marriage. The person who shut down realized when you grow in marriage, you realize you're no more better by shutting down than the person who blow up. There you go. It's like, well, they blow up, they're wrong. We we we acknowledge the person that blows up, go off, ghetto. We know those things are wrong because we can see them emotionally, but when you grow really in marriage, then you realize the person that shut down, you're you're no better than them because now all communication is stopped. You you're killing it just as much, and sometimes it's even worse because some of the worst killers is a silent killer. Yeah, if you have a heart attack, you know to run to the hospital because your heart hurt. But if you got high blood pressure and other stuff, it kills you silently. Before you know it, it's too late. Yeah, so almost that even almost worse because it it sneaks up on you, yeah, and it got you. And by the time you realize it, it's too late. So that's it can be more almost diabolical. Both of them are wrong. One of them is just violent, but they both end up they're both deadly, yes. Like carbon monoxide is deadly, right? Because you don't you you if if there's smoke in the house and you have a fire, you smell the smoke and it can jar you to like run out the house because you start coughing and it hurt, but in order to get you out. But carbon monoxide, you just sleep through it, yeah. So you don't want to be either one of them is wrong. I think one of a mistake I think some leaders they they again I want to emphasize we pray to close, they get out of bounds, they avoid it, or they just be abusive. And I like to say this when it comes to avoiding to help people in that avoiding part. Uh avoiding conflicts breeds confusion. And what you don't address in one way, you are blessing it. If you don't address it, you'll it's like you're blessing it. And when you when you don't, so that means you you're giving it approval and and and and the behavior that's not addressed and dealt with, it'll continue. So that's why you gotta realize there got to be a balance to help those in that. Before we land this plane today, Pastor C, I was just thinking, why do you think leaders get in the ditch? Maybe we already dealt with it in terms of being too passive or maybe too aggressive uh in that. But why do you think? Because I think we we're talking to leaders, I believe that most of them are probably on one extreme, some may be more balanced. Why do you think they get in that uh uh uh that that stream? Because I've seen leaders in times past when I when I swift started shifting, or when I was even in my patient mode, exhibiting some terms of grace or grace that I kind of feel it, not necessarily. They say it, but it's almost like you're being too nice. It's like I'm not like you, you know, or like that's why people don't hold the standard. It's almost like they feel they see it as like that's just like what a pastor do, like you being babied. People don't need to be babied and pacified and coddled. You they lose term like coddling people, dealing people with kid gloves, and they don't have time to deal with people's and feelings, and people need to grow up. They look at it as more so as a like they took come up. You you shouldn't have to go through all that to tell somebody they was wrong and late. You know, they were wrong and late. I why do you think is it just like a mindset that because I've seen people good people struggle with that that they don't sometimes don't see that they don't see it as like it's a balance, and that's how you bring the best out of people. What do you see? Or some that are so passive and they never deal with things. What do you see? What's the root of that?

Pastor Cornelius 1:15:56

I think the the simple answer I feel like would be because some people haven't been taught and they don't they don't realize that grace doesn't lower the standards. Okay, that grace that grace doesn't lower the standards. What it does, it rises people up to meet the standard, it raises them up to meet the standards. Grace does not lower the standard, but it raised people up to meet the standards.

Pastor Dowell 1:16:18

So I'm saying go ahead. I'm saying so it's kind of almost like then the way we they some people look at it with salvation. If they hear grace, they think you're telling people you can get away with anything, and it's not saying that when it's preached properly.

Pastor Cornelius 1:16:30

Exactly.

Pastor Dowell 1:16:30

That's exactly they almost see it like that with leadership. That if you have grace, you're just saying anything go. They think grace means anything go.

Pastor Cornelius 1:16:37

They think grace means you're letting people get away, you're lowering the standards, you know, and and and not stabling the team. I'm trying to keep this team stable, and not only stable, I'm stability, but I'm trying to get them where we stay a while. We stay, we're we're strong enough to stay. Why? Because I'm I'm showing grace and die. Jesus did it, and he correct, he corrected. So I think it's a lack of teaching, and of course, they stay in the ditch because there's no balance, there's no balance that I think. I and you say, Why did why they go so extreme? That's what they seen. I think when people go to extremes, it's what we see.

Pastor Dowell 1:17:22

What about the passive then? You you hit the part about the aggressive. Why do you think some people just so passive? Personality where they don't confront, they let everything go.

Pastor Cornelius 1:17:32

I think per personality, and we and and they don't seem like I shared earlier, that people miss himself how they confront people. Ah if they miss him, they they they they they they don't seem people like the parents now who don't don't discipline their kids at all, right? Right, like that, because they seen it mishandled. So, other words, they seen it bloody, and they seen it, they seen it, they witnessed it. So, uh I'd rather not have any controversy, don't worry about it. I'd rather not no, I ain't gonna say nothing because it was mishandler. I I know the way I was, you know, that became the attitude. I know how I got trained. Uh uh uh I want to treat people like that so that they they they miss kind of uh don't worry about it, just let it go. I p I I do it up. All of us have stuff to do, you know, gonna be late. But that I think one of the keys to leaders, though, I said it earlier, is that you got to build that culture, man. It's the culture. I I firmly believe in that ministry, whatever you're leading, that auxiliary, you have to set that culture. How you gonna how you want it to be? So me, you talk about all the time, you know, when the coach, a new coach comes in, the first thing he works on, sometimes I got to change the old culture, I got to change it. How do I change it? You know, you know, I work towards trying to change that, and I think that's what leaders got to do. And this is kind of when when I feel like the Lord gave me that G, I you know, I was looking in terms of I knew me, and that I realized I didn't have my wings until I learned how to give grace, how to give grace, but yet, still, what I learned through it, man, is that now further correcting, I try not step a lot of it. I don't I don't seem to have as much correcting I have to do now as I did maybe then, because as I learn and I start walking in grace, people pick it up. You know why? Because it's the culture. So we never have to say right here that we we I was brought up. I my former pastor, I was brought up hearing one thing all the time. Everyone, members here, we used to repeat it. He said it more said it so much. Winners are own time. That's all he would say. Winners are on time. Winners are on time. So what happened is we became a church that did everything on time. So people know we function like that. People know we operate like that. So that's part of our culture. And the same with how we lead people, it's part of the culture. And so now I don't have to do as much correcting because it's our culture.

Pastor Dowell 1:20:26

And it just thought to me, I love that. And I'll get your final thoughts. But what hit me, Pastor C, where you were speaking is I think sometimes people have looked at we dealt with in our last podcast, but they look at the results of people who they admire and leaders that they look up to, and they think because of the outward results that they see, they think they equate that with it being okay to have that aggressive type, mainly in that leadership. Because you usually don't use normally see it, or even both. Let's say if it's passive, but you normally don't see that a lot of success in that. But if it is seeming passive, then they don't know then that there are other leaders that are holding people more accountable. You just seeing one phase of it. If a leader doesn't seem like they're aggressive, you're just seeing what you see. Thank you, Lord. You seeing them in public when you see a leader that's like that. Maybe what you see in public, but you don't see what happened privately.

Pastor Cornelius 1:21:29

There you go.

Pastor Dowell 1:21:29

In the conversation, so it seemed like oh, they're passive, they let stuff get away. No, you just don't know about it. Like we think about like a Tony Dungey, we think about you know, or even the coach now for uh Todd Boers or something, you know. Yes, the personnel that seemed more laid back, you might seem like they're laid back, but they still hold people accountable, they just do it in a different way, and you might not just see it publicly. That's true. So I think that, but when we see those leaders who are more on the extreme uh over aggressive, we think they're okay because it the success that they have, the results that they have, and many times we see in retrospect as a fallout from that. And I think uh I think that's I still remember now, man. People who I believe are anointed, I believe the hand of God is on their life. Um I learned from them and grow from them, but I've seen some leaders just embarrass people in such a way that I felt bad for them. I mean, like they're just read like, didn't I tell you this? Haven't I done with it and just just berate people? Ministries flourish, and sometimes people can think in a way because they see other leaders get away with that, and leaders they might feel like you keep people in order. I think that's almost like an old school welfare mentality that they taught they would talk people in a way to keep them in line. Come almost like you know, like the way the pimp would people pimp people like he talked to the person in a way that's how you keep them in order. You know, you do you talk, that's how you and that's not God. And just because sometimes people have growth and they have great things in their life, I think sometimes we can learn wrong patterns. And sometimes if you grew up in that and you have uh uh you have that pattern, and it seemed to seem successful, that doesn't mean it was right, and I think that's why we have to get balance in in grace. So, my final thought is we realize that grace is not measured how fast we correct, how hard we correct, but that we cover and cultivate that's what it's all about. We want to, like you said, we want to bring out the best in people.

Pastor Cornelius 1:23:44

Anything that's on your heart, Pastor C you want to close in and one thing I would say down for there's a statement that I remember teaching a saying that hit me kind of picked up from our bishop once. He said it in another way, he didn't use grace, but I think it fit here. He tells he said, Before we can go up, we have to grow up. But I feel like if grace, if God gave gave give us grace, he gave you grace to grow, then I think we ought to give other people grace to go. I think we keep people from going because we don't give them grace from growing and going, growing and going because we don't give them grace, but yet God give us grace to grow, but we don't give people grace to grow. It's like, hey, you should be here now. This is it, this is where you ought to be at. Give people grace to grow, like the Lord give us grace to grow, then they can go. Go where? Go to that next level that you need them at to help you lead.

Pastor Dowell 1:24:41

I love it, and that grace to go. And I I want to put this on too so people would know it. Since we wrote most of that horse to one side, that that is grace when you remove people because you're putting them in a position that they can succeed. It is grace sometimes for people to be fired and removed so that you can get to the place where you can survive and thrive. It's it's not grace to keep you in a place of failure, but it's how you go about doing it, it's the time you go about doing it, and doesn't mean you throw them away. Sometimes you just reposition them at another place, don't kick them off the bus, but you put them on another seat on the bus, and and it's how you do it with dignity. So it's not about that you you no standards, but it's when it's how, and the way you go about hitting those standards, and that way I think that's grace holding high high standards. We don't want that to be clips. See, high standards, but it's it's it's how you go about implementing those high standards. Well, my friend, this has been great. I pray that you all have eaten well. Yeah, I pray you got some wings. We're growing them wings. This is how we get uh leadership wings from that caterpillar to a butterfly. Any in the military, we say it this way, Pastor C. We call it alibi fire, meaning that after we shut our uh repensed down range, that means if you got any rounds left in the chamber, they call it alibi fire in the alibi fire. Shoot them all out because we don't want to take them out the range. So you got in the alibi fire, anything else stirring within you? Uh, because I've enjoyed this conversation. You want to share? I know we had final thoughts, but anything else stirring within you?

Pastor Cornelius 1:26:29

What one thing don't misinterpret grace to mean that you don't correct, or like you say, you lower the standards, you don't want to do that. Grace does not lower the standards, but what grace do it raise people to meet the standards, so I don't lower them. I got to make sure I don't know, and I do not avoid because you're gonna cause stuff to be dysfunctional. If you avoid controversy, if you avoid it, if it uh what I mean by avoid it, you you you ignore it, it's there, you don't ignore it. It's a problem we got. So, what we do, we don't lower our standards, we don't do that, but what we do, we give grace and what you shared early. We learn the why, the how, the timing, all of that in the midst of that. So that's what I will leave with.

Pastor Dowell 1:27:16

Well, what a wonderful time. We pray that you've enjoyed this five-fold food uh podcast. Be sure you scan the QR code that you may see on the screen. If you're watching this on YouTube or any social media video platform, you'll be able to get any other ministry resources that'll be a blessing to you. You listen on iTunes or Spotify. Be sure that you do subscribe and like, leave us a five-star review. We'll look forward to our next time together. Share this podcast with another leader, ministry leader. We believe this grace is gonna help you run your race until God ordained pace. Why? Because we're walking under God's grace.

Pastor Cornelius 1:27:54

Ah, that's good.

Pastor Dowell 1:27:55

Look forward to our next time together. Remember, man should not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. See you on our next time together.