Serve While You Soar: Butterfly Leadership & the Final Wing of W.I.N.G.S. Leadership

What if the point of elevation isn’t visibility but responsibility? We dig into servant leadership with a clear charge: when God gives you wings, use them to cover more ground, not to collect more applause. Together we unpack why true growth in ministry means rising for people, not above them—and how to build a serving culture that lasts.

We start by reframing service beyond chores. Yes, grab chairs and pick up that stray program, but don’t miss the deeper lane: your gift is a towel. Preaching is serving the word. Singing is serving hope. Strategy is serving clarity. Preparation is ministry before ministry. When we treat study, rehearsal, and planning as service, we stop performing for approval and start delivering outcomes with excellence and tenderness. We lay out two practical frameworks: time, teaching, training, and tenderness; and a posture that is reachable, helpful, teachable, and consistent. Paired together, they turn values into habits and habits into culture.

We challenge entitlement head-on. Elevation without servanthood is self-promotion; elevation with servanthood is kingdom advancement. We talk through “surgery mode” on Sundays—why well-placed help removes friction so the message lands—and everyday humility the rest of the week. We reject hazing and model instead, celebrating small acts that multiply influence. You’ll hear how 360 serving—leaders serving followers, followers serving leaders, teams serving each other and guests—keeps communities healthy and aligned. For those under heavy expectations, we offer wisdom on boundaries, prayerful strategy, and guarding your spirit without sowing discord.

Bring your towel and watch your title gain power. If God can trust you with service, He can trust you with scale. Subscribe, share this conversation with a ministry friend, and leave a review so more leaders can be lifted—and lift others in turn.

Transcript

Welcome, Vision, And Audience Invitation

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Fivefold Food Podcast, hosted by Dr. Robert F. Dial, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment they need to succeed. The Word of God declares, and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the faith, for the work of the edifying of the body of Christ. Prepare to receive revelation, wisdom, and insight. Empower your ministry for victory. Now, let's eat.

Pastor Dowell 0:41

God bless each and every one of you. Welcome to another edition of the Fivefold Food Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Robert F. Dow, and I'm so delighted that you've chosen to join us for another podcast where it's our desire to feed the ministry leader, the fivefold minister with the word of God so that they may grow, that they may eat well, and that they may excel. I want to encourage you wherever you are listening or viewing this podcast. If you're on YouTube, be sure that you subscribe, share it with a friend so that they can also enjoy the podcast. And that way you'll get all the uh the notifications when we put out new podcasts, not only new podcasts, but other ministry training materials. So be sure that you do subscribe, share it with another ministry friend as well. If you're on iTunes or listening on Spotify or iTunes, be sure you subscribe as well. It'll go right to your account and you'll get all the latest uh podcasts. And so if you're on YouTube, be sure that you get it on the

Sponsor And Credentials Introduced

Pastor Dowell 1:40

audio version. If you're on the audio version, be sure that you get it on the YouTube version. We're so delighted you're here. Also, if you look in the show notes, you'll find other ministry products and materials that we believe will be a blessing unto you. You can see there those that are with us on uh uh YouTube. You can be able to see a QR code, you can scan that, it'll link you to all the different ministry resources that'll be a blessing to you. If you're listening to it, be sure that you check in the show notes, it'll be a blessing to you as well. Also, you'll find many uh free resources and materials in the show notes. And also, please be sure to leave us a five-star review if you're listening on Spotify or iTunes. We're so glad that you're here. And we're thankful for this podcast, one of our sponsors of the New Life Bible College and Seminary, where you can grow in your walk with God, get the degree that you always wanted to have. You study, you learned a lot, but you really don't have anything to show for your learning. Well, in the New Life Bible College and Seminaries, you can get your degree from a bachelor's level all the way to the doctoral level so that you can excel in your education, online education. So be sure you look at the link, you can find any information

Leadership Wings Recap And Theme

Pastor Dowell 2:50

regarding that. It may serve you. Well, I'm excited about uh this podcast that we have uh for you today. Today, again, I am joined. I don't call him my partner in crime, but my partner in podcasting. That's what we'll call it. This is my podcast partner, and so I'm glad to have my podcast partner with me again. Uh, Pastor Canadians, he's not a guest. We'll just stop calling you a guest. He's my partner, so he's my podcast partner. He's not a guest, he's the partner with me on this fivefold poop podcast. And Pastor C, Dr. Canadians. I'm so glad uh to have you here with us for another podcast. Man the God, how are we doing today?

Pastor Cornelius 3:32

Doing well, man. Glad to be here as always, man. I always look forward to this time when we can come together, man, and make this thing work, man. I really look forward to it. I'm excited about it.

Pastor Dowell 3:42

I am too, and Dr. Canadians is no stranger here. So if you don't know who he is, he's been in ministry over 30 years, a leader in this community, a leader in the church, been pastoring for over 30 years, but in ministry, more than that, about 35 years, but a leader in his community, doing great things. He's an author as well. Uh, if you're watching and listening on YouTube, uh, you'll see a uh uh a QR code there on the screen. You can scan it, get some of his ministry materials, a cited book he did about uh leadership, hallelujah, the different dimensions of leadership. You'll see a QR code there. You scan that, it'll help get you uh uh tapped into his materials. Uh, and so we're glad to

Elevation Expands Service, Not Visibility

Pastor Dowell 4:20

have him. Pastor C, let's do this podcast, man. Today, what we what we've been dealing with, we've been in a time of teaching dealing with the concept of leadership wings. And today we're in leadership wings part five. And what we're learning how to go from a caterpillar to a butterfly. I'm gonna encourage you if this is your first time, your only podcast, be sure you go back and catch the previous episodes. We believe they'll bless you in a powerful way. And Dr. Cornelius, you started this concept, man, with a teaching that you did uh from caterpie to butterfiller. I kind of got on it, and we've been uh working this thing out together. I'm excited uh about today's podcast as we deal with uh the letter S and developing uh the wings. We learn about the wisdom, we learn about being inspiring leaders, we learn how to navigate as leaders. Leaders got to know how to navigate correctly. Then we learn we had to give grace, walking in grace as leaders, and now we're up to uh the letter S and leaders. And what you so eloquently taught in your teaching, you shared with us uh the S is that we have to serve while you soar. Serve while you soar. You know, Pastor C, how we like to uh begin our time together. Let's frame uh this conversation in looking at maybe the importance of it and looking at uh the concept of serving while we soar. So we can let these ministers know why this may be an important message that they need to learn about serving while you soar. Uh, one thing came to my mind when I wanted to kind of frame it, I want to hear your thoughts. I thought about in the entry message that you podcast that we did, you talked about how that caterpillar he walks on the ground, and you said that it only covers so much on the ground, but when he gets his wing, he's able to elevate. I thought about a butterfly, he he doesn't just soar to be seen, he soars to cover more ground. So the caterpillar he covers more ground than the caterpillar ever could, and so what happens is our elevation it expands our service. Wow, the elevation is to expand the the whole meaning, the whole concept, the whole purpose of you moving from the ground to the air. We got to understand this. Why I'm glad you put it is to help us learn to serve. We it we elevate to expand our service. It's that God lifts, He He gives the wings to the leader so that the leader can be lifted. But the goal is not visibility. The goal, see, this is the whole thing. The whole thing, it brings us to the S. It's not about the wings, it's it's the wisdom, the inspiration. No, it's not about the wings, it's not about you flying high as a leader, it's not about your visibility, but it's about your greater

Servant Mindset Versus Pride And Pitfalls

Pastor Dowell 7:20

responsibility. That's the whole thing, yeah. Yeah, you need the wings. Yes, you'll fly, yes, you'll be seen because that's what you got to go to fly. But the whole thing is that that God said, I want you to begin to get visibility for greater responsibility. We're elevated to help people more, bless people more, serve more. That's what it's all about, and so our greater assignment is not about just having an applause, but our elevation is about not an applause, but our assignment. And I believe, Pastor C, and what we'll unpack through this podcast that our assignment is to serve. We rose to serve, not to be seen. And that's what hits me when I when I thought about uh the framing and like I because I like to go through in my mind, Pastor C, when I preach or teach a message to help the ministry leaders, I can't preach a message, I can't mount the pulpit, I can't go to God's holy pulpit unless I have within me the necessity of this word. Why is this word need to be delivered? Does this word really matter? I just can't give a word. It got I got to feel and know that it matters because if I don't feel it, they won't feel it. Right, be like fire shot up in my bone, and that's what I got when I thought about this serving that it's the whole thing, it's all about serving.

Pastor Cornelius 8:53

So, what so what I'm hearing then is that elevation does not eliminate servanthood. So he elevates you, it does not eliminate servanthood, but what it does as I'm hearing from you, it lifts you up so you can get a clear vision of what being a leader really is in the responsibilities, and that is that we serve that that that that's what I'm hearing. So, to serve, so I mean, to soar, I mean, is that why I'm sowing, I serve. Okay, and so that really means that no matter how high God lifts you with in influence and responsibility, and even with this with vision, no, no matter how high, you never forget, you should never forget why he lifted you, and his purpose in lifting you is to servanthood. Yes, so elevat uh hey, so that means elevation then I wrote down here as you were talking, that means elevation, what it does, it it amplifies, it amplifies the high he lifts me in leadership, the high I go, all it does is emphasize that I'm called to serve. I'm

Defining Serve While You Soar

Pastor Cornelius 10:20

called to serve, that's what it does. So true, true, true leadership is not about raising above people, but rising up for people.

Pastor Dowell 10:37

Say that again, preacher.

Pastor Cornelius 10:38

Yeah, so it's not about raising above people, but it's about raising up people. That's what it is. That's what that's about. I'm raising for people, I'm going up for the people. I mean, I want to raise them up. I'm I'm there to serve. No, don't they suppose to serve you because of your title? Don't they suppose to serve you? No, I don't want to get ahead of myself, but no, I keep a tower on me, and we'll just talk about that later. But I keep a tower on me. That means I keep the attitude of a servant leader. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm out to serve, and that's what that means to soar.

Pastor Dowell 11:19

Wow, I love it, man. I'm loving this. He raised me.

Pastor Cornelius 11:24

But I think one of the keys, as God take you higher, and you got to keep that mindset of a servant, if not how you like to put your words, as he takes you higher, pride will bring you lower. If you ain't careful, if you don't keep the attitude of a servant, pride will bring you down as God is trying to take you higher. So that's so valid important.

Pastor Dowell 11:50

Man, I love that. What I'm hearing, Pastor C. I love this. He raised us up so we can raise others up, and I'm hearing you saying, and that's the conversations. I love to have these conversations because there's so much revelation in conversations. I'm hearing this that without this in a leader's foundation, they'll end up in devastation. If they don't get this in foundation, they'll end up with regret and upset. Why? Because when God raised them up, how often has we seen this? And we say, people, they got beside themselves, they got the big head, nobody could tell them anything, they got haughty. We say in Christian world, sometimes they got Hollywood, you know, they they became narcissistic. And we hear all these stories and documentaries about how leaders, how they treated people, uh, they became like the diva mentality. I believe this happens, Pastor Z. Not because someone uh decided to go off the deep end, it's because maybe we as leaders have not did a good job when we're helping ministry leaders build the house, the ministry, that what God has given them charge over. We didn't let them know that, hey, in your foundation, there got to be this revelation that whatever he does, it's about you going higher so you can raise others higher.

Serving Through Gifts, Not Just Tasks

Pastor Dowell 13:20

The whole goal is for you to be able to serve on another level. The whole thing for the increase, for the breakthrough, for the next level, for whatever it is that that you ministers aspire to to become all, do all. Why? We say oh for God glory, we say for souls, we we say that God can be glorified so that I can be a good steward of my talents and gifts. All those things are good, but what I believe, the overarching goal for God to be glorified, for you to fully use your gifts, is so that you can serve. So why? Because your greatness, whatever we call greatness is, we learned from my bishop. What whatever being great is, God makes us great. That's it. Our goal is to be faithful with our gifts and talents and and study and learn and upgrade and increase and do all of that. We faithful, but whatever we call greatness, whatever we say it is, God will make you great. But why does he do it? Because the greatest among you should be servant. And I think we haven't put that in the foundation, and like we said, rebar got to be in a good foundation, having the mindset that God will, you know, this is what we tell people God gonna do great things that your eyes hadn't seen, that your ears hadn't heard, that had in your heart, God gonna take you to places, but I think we got to realize He's taking you there so that you can serve when you get there.

Pastor Cornelius 14:56

Yes, that's good. So, because the elevation down, elevation without servanthood, what it what it becomes self-promotion. So if you if elevation without servanthood, all it becomes is self-promotion, but elevation from from you put the scripture up. So what you just said, you know, but greatest among you shall be, you know, shall be your servant. So I see it like this then that what happened is but elevation with servanthood become kingdom, keen them, that's keen of advancement, that's kingdom advancement. See, because you got out you got elevation with servanthood, the greatest among you, and like Bishop always taught us, hey, when he said, Whatever great look like to you, God make you great, but in that I'm telling you, man, that that greatness that it says the greatest among you should be a servant. So elevation with servanthood, what that becomes kingdom advancement.

Time, Teaching, Training, Tenderness Framework

Pastor Cornelius 16:10

I love putting those two together, yeah. But elevation without servanthood, self-promotion.

Pastor Dowell 16:17

I love that. I love that. I love that, Pastor C, because normally we're dealing with either one side of the corn, we're emphasizing servanthood, uh-huh. And so, but then on the other side, we're just emphasizing elevation. Yeah, I think we have to put both of those together. What we do put, we do talk about servanthood and leadership together. Yeah, we do, and so we we we we said it's servant leader, but I'm liking this twist on it now as I'm hearing you speaking. That now is that God wants to elevate you.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

That's correct.

Pastor Dowell 16:52

Couple that together, all of the elevation is so that you can serve on another level. It's not either or, it's not that we serve or be elevated. No, we're elevated to serve. Let's let's let's let's break this down more to the common denominator. As I like to say, let's put it where the ghost can get it, let's make a clear sound so that this teaching about servanthood can be found so the people and the ministry leaders can abound. So let's define it. You know, I like to say, Pastor C, if we don't properly define a thing, people won't be able to find a thing. If I tell you, go get my shirt out the closet. If I don't define what shirt dial, you can't find it, not because you don't want to, not because you're not looking hard, because you didn't define and know what to look for. So, in your mind, let's kind of define what it really means to serve and soar. You know, like what does it really mean to serve and soar? And and and and so what do you see when we talk about what does it really mean to serve and soar? What comes to your mind when you think about defining what that kind of looked like? What is that?

Pastor Cornelius 18:06

I I think the like I said earlier, the soaring is I look at that as God lifting me higher, okay, and in different areas for there's influence, responsibility, everything that comes in, what we say as a servant, okay. And then the servant part is I think the servant tool is where, like I shared you earlier, it's it's

Reachable, Helpful, Teachable, Consistent

Pastor Cornelius 18:30

about most so rising up for the people, for people. I feel like that's what that rule is. That I'm I'm I'm rising up for the people, but I think in that, what it also does now, I think the the sewing, the sewing is being lifted, but it's sustained. I actually think you'll be sustained by your serving. I think your serving keeps you humble. I think humility. What you mean by that, Passi? As you're sewing up, if you're serving, it keeps you humble, it keeps you on a level ground. Because he is sewing, I'm sewing, but I still got to stay level grounded, and what keeps me level it keeps me grounded. I stay grounded while God is elevating me when I'm serving.

Pastor Dowell 19:24

I like that. See, what I hear is this that serving the humility is about it, is you being humble, not humiliated. You're humble because you really it's not about you, right? It's about others. That's right. It's others minded. So when we're serving, it's an others minded. And I like it. I thought about when we think about this in the political realm, Pastor C, that when we look at a politician who's really that said that that they want to be elevated to an office, uh position, you know. Whatever degree, Congress, Senate, President, Mayor, whatever they say that because the out they're they're doing it for the people, right? See the whole thing about them getting in the position when it's right, with why because they want to do it for the people, and so I like that. That that's the whole part about the servant. God want to elevate you, and I think we remember what it looked like that it's not about you. There you go, it's not, but it's about the people now that you can help because of where God put you at.

Pastor Cornelius 20:33

That's good. That's good.

Pastor Dowell 20:34

I look at serving is like this. I thought about when I thought about these things, is serving is reaching back as you soar, even though I'm flying high, but it's reaching back, giving back, it's lifting others and leaving breadcrumbs that that's serving. I'm going higher, but but now even though I'm going high, I'm gonna reach back and help somebody else go higher. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna give back to others that are in lack that they are where I used to be, whatever

Acts 6 Model: Serving Through Preparation

Pastor Dowell 21:10

dimension in my finances, in my marriage, in my kingdom wall, because I remember being the little man, I remember being crawling on the ground. I don't forgot what it's like to have to fight the ants and fight the stuff. Why? So it's giving back, reaching back, lifting others, and leaving breadcrumbs. I call it greatcrumbs because you want to leave principles to help others on their path. So I start looking at servings that in our teachings, in your books, in your podcasts, in your tick tock reels, in your songs, in your poems, in the stuff that you make. What you're doing is your little stickers that you sell and people put, you make wristbands, and you got stuff, and you got a little saying, you're leaving breadcrumbs and principles to help others along the way. That that's serving while you're sowing. While I'm sowing, I'm giving back to help somebody else.

Pastor Cornelius 22:11

Oh, that's good.

Pastor Dowell 22:12

See, see, serving while sowing means God gives you more so that you can give back more. That's true. See, the proof of soaring is not how how you go, but like you said, how others rise because of what you did. So I start looking at serving is that way. I start thinking about my this this is serving. Okay, as I was preparing for the podcast, and think about it. This see, so we begin to, as ministry leaders, look at serving. Yes, serving is moving the chairs, serving is sweeping those things, you know. That that's it, manual labor. We always see manual labor as serving, right? Whatever level of manual labor it is, but be a young the manual labor that when you are serving with your gift and what you are good at, not just serving, when you are ministering with your gift and what you're good at, don't just look at it as ministry, look at it as serving, yeah. And so now what we're doing now, we're serving, we're we're we're we're leaving breadcrumbs, we're we're teaching people through our pain what we've learned. We're serving ministry leaders, we're not picking them up to give them a ride, we're not uh doing nothing manual for them, but we're serving them with our gifts and our talent. And I thought about before we hit start on the podcast. Before we hit start on the podcast, Pastor C, you've been moving today. I've been moving today. We didn't get to talk a lot before, but it dawned on me before we said, Hey, let's do a podcast. We didn't talk, we don't go over notes. We don't, we don't, we don't know what you're gonna say. Man, we get ready,

Preparation As Ministry Before Ministry

Pastor Dowell 24:00

we start the podcast, but it hit me, it dawned on me. You had a phone call, you said, Hey Dal, give give you know, I'm sorry about that for a moment. I just ran out of one meeting, I got another meeting. Give me a moment, we're just getting ready to hit record. You said that let me take this phone call. Let me, I'm dealing with something, and it began to dawn on me that we got to realize that when we are using our gifts, when when we are doing what we're good at, we're serving that that don't no that's that's serving, see, because what I'm doing is not for me, it's for others, and I think when we begin to see serving in a different level that you were serving, that what I'm doing, serving. You mentioned about you saw uh a video that my son released on social media, it's you know called Excel with Sale. And you said, Dow, when I seen that, I I believe I saw you behind that. I told somebody, I that's that's what that's what Pastor Dow that that I said with his son. I bet Pastor Dow behind the camera. I can tell and I see his wife, he's doing it because my son did a video and then he had his mom in it. You said I bet Pastor Dow behind the camera because that seemed like something that Pastor Dow would come up with. I bet they were eating and they came up with a concept, and Pastor Dow came with it, and now he's releasing that because you said that because this is what you said, and it hit me. That's the kind of stuff you do. That's just your gift, Dow. You see things in people and concepts and ideas, and you pull it out and you frame it for them, and you encourage them to do it. You know what I was doing? That's how I served. See, I wasn't just talking with my son, I just wasn't given the idea. I begin to look at that now. That's my service to the kingdom, that's part of my towel. That's how I serve. Somebody else might cook a cake. We'll definitely applaud the cake. Somebody else might cut the grass, somebody else changed the tire. Man, he came by and fixed my brakes. But you got to begin to look at it in different ways. When you're using your gift and what you're doing at, you're serving. When you were making the phone call, you're dealing with leadership issues for the city, for the school system, for your community serving. What's the significance? As a man thinking in his heart, so is he.

unknown 26:24

Yeah.

Pastor Dowell 26:25

So when you start seeing serving on another level, you'll go to another level. When you start seeing, it's like this is my labor. Because serving sometimes mean you're sweating, man. They're trying to fix the diet. See, they they tired, they they they they gotta go through this and this, they gotta cook the cake. I host up all night, getting up, shelling them peas. We they they but they feel good because they break a sweat and they realize this is sweat equity, this is my service. Maybe what you do might not break a physical sweat,

Elevation With Servanthood vs Self-Promotion

Pastor Dowell 27:00

but it breaks a mental, an emotional, a spiritual using your mind, and when we start seeing it as service unto the Lord, I believe we get a greater anointing. We tap into the anointing to serve when you start realizing that you're serving. Yes, I believe we tap into another level, like, hey, this is my service. I thought about it even as I was ripping and running, and we're getting ready for the podcast. This is my service, God. I'm serving you, God. This is not just something I'm doing, not just an idea. That's what not that I have to, I get to that's it. What are you hearing, Pastor C and thing you want to add that?

Pastor Cornelius 27:44

But that blessed me when I thought about that. That blessed me as you shared that because the other thing, what you did, you just defined the lane, and once you understand what lane you in, now you stay in your lane. It it prevents from having an ice in there, it prevents it prevent from running off the road because you stand in your lane, you stand in your lane because you recognize this is serving. What I'm doing is serving hood, just like the one that might be laboring, like you say, with baking the cake and stand up all night to do, but I'm still in my lane, and so I end up having an accident. I get out of my lane because I can't define what is my lane. So I think that that's what I see in that. And in what you have done is showed us another area, show us serving the other things we do. We get the attitude of that being a servant as we're sowing, because that's our whole thing. As I'm sowing, I'm still serving, and it's a disservice, it's a disservice. If all you want to do is sow and not serve, that's a disservice. That's what that is, that's a disservice, you know, because you're called to others, we're called to others, so whatever that gift, whatever that talent is, if it's what we're sharing right now, once you recognize this is me serving. So now instead of you being a disserving, a disservice, you're being a help of service to someone because you're willing to serve.

Pastor Dowell 29:24

I love that. What I'm seeing, Pastor C, in this a disservice. So let's look at how we do it. Let's look at now how do we serve, or we might talk about principles and practice to serve so we can kind of flesh this thing out so we can know how to walk it out. How do we serve now? Because we say, like, no, we know how to serve. No, we hadn't been, we've been told to serve, we've been encouraged to serve, but very rarely have we heard messages about serving. And when I'm talking about messages, I'm talking about teachings line on line, precept on precept, here a little, there a little, marriage most of things. We've just been told serve,

Entitlement Trap And “Surgery Mode” Analogy

Pastor Dowell 30:10

and we connect it with leadership, so we look at it as only manual or things that seem that like that menial where it make you humble, and you're watching toilets, and you you know, you're picking up groceries. I'm not minimizing that, but that's how we saw it because what you just said, what I think was interesting. If we're gonna do it, and I'm gonna talk about how we do it, a principle and practice from what I'm hearing from you is first what we need to do if we're gonna that's it, thank you, Lord. Serve on a greater level, serve on a sustained level. We gotta know our lane to serve, right? See, and when you find your lane, then you can remain because now when I find my lane, I think service starts with an attitude and not action. True, see, it's not about the action because if I have the action and not the attitude, I'm gonna end up with an attitude, correct? But if I have the attitude that serving one is unto the Lord, but it would it's with my gift, what I'm good at based on what people need. Now, when I have that attitude about it, now I begin to see serving in different ways. Like now we get to do, I get to go to the nursing home and sing. I'm going here and I'm singing, I'm going here and doing this now. My attitude that's serving, it's just not I'm on the praise team, and then now we have the heart before the hands. See, it's not first what you do. See that don't focus on do this, do this, do that. It's the heart of what you're good at, what you're gifted. And so I like these T's for serving leadership, it deals with time, investing your time, intentional moments to serve to give time to invest in someone else's development, okay, and based on what you do, to that's the mentorship time. So now when I'm giving people time instead of looking at like let me move quickly. Yes, we need to be mindful of our time. Yes, we should not let people waste our time. Yes, as leaders, you got to be guardful of your time that you don't want parasites, right? But there's another balance to that that you got to begin to look at your time as an investment of your service. Oh, that's our service. I'm gonna I'm gonna have lunch with this person, and now the attitude is now I'm doing them a favor, I'm gonna make time. It's like Lord, the greatest among you need to be serving, and so now I got a right attitude about it. I'm serving time, teaching, sharing principles and pathways, not just giving your opinion, but teaching people, training people when you're doing things to help train, and when you're being tending to people. So I want to put it in practice. Look at your time you give people, just listening. Start doing that when somebody like they want, one, one, they talking and they just playing the violin. Start looking at those leaders, it's like you're serving them. Not it's like I'm just being no, no, no, you're serving by being a listening ear, teaching, training, and then here I put this other T, tenderness. That when I'm gentle, when I'm encouraging, when I'm patient, I'm being patient, I'm I'm being patient, I'm being patient. Now that's a part of me serving you grace, serving humility. And I thought about our beloved bishop, as went on to be with the Lord. That I thought about how our bishop he taught, he served us with his teaching, with his revelation. But one thing you will always say we would know to be true, that it's like he didn't, it wasn't like a stranger, it's like you could be a room with a thousand people, but he'll make you feel like you're the only one in the room. Yes, that he had so many ministers that when he talked when he called you or when he talked to you, he just had such a magnet, he had a tender, he was great, but he was so tender where he didn't seem afar off that even if he left a message, I still remember a message that he left on the phone because why he had a great man, but he had a approachability and a tenderness, a humility that he served us with

Modeling Over Mandating: End Hazing Culture

Pastor Dowell 34:30

it, and I and when you start looking at that, it's kind of like that people person, that person that's got that charisma, how you doing? Look at that as a service, and so that's what I started thought about what it looked like. Uh, what are you hearing in this and passive? I don't want to go, man.

Pastor Cornelius 34:49

I uh I'm gonna go another way, okay with what you everything you just shared with the time, your time, your your your teaching, you said the training, and then at the end you said the tellingness, right? Uh-huh. Now, to do this, I'm gonna look at the approach to do it, how serving look in order to do the things you just said, you have to first of all be reachable. You got to be reachable. I'm gonna deal with everything what you said is the serving. That's that's what serving is. But how do I do this? What it take for me serving look like you being reachable, you being helpful, doing small things without needing an applause. I'm just being helpful, that's doing small things without needing somebody to applaud me. You being teachable, how you gonna teach? Because you can't serve well if you're not still learning. So you teaching right now, and if I if I'm not willing to grab this, like now, Bishop, if Bishop always says, you want that to stick. If I don't let this stick down, I never do it. So, how can I be serving like the stuff you're putting up, the stuff you're putting down? If I don't pick up what you're putting down, that means I'm not teachable, therefore I don't serve well because I'm not still learning. A person is not still learning, do not serve well because they're not teachable. And then a key serving isn't a moment, you just do a it's just not a moment, it's a mindset. That's where that attitude comes in, where you say it's not just a moment, it's a mindset, and that's being consistent. If it's just a moment, you don't be consistent. That's what I see in it as a servant. You got to be consistent, you got to be teachable, you got to be helpful, do that, and you got to be reachable as a servant, and then you're able to give your time, teach, train, and be telling.

Pastor Dowell 37:14

Man, that's good. I love it, man. I love it because what happens is the things I dealt with was the the doing of it. Yes, the methods I dealt with methods, time, teaching, training, tenderness, methods. You dealt with mindset, yes. See, because if you don't have the right mindset, you won't get to the method. No, method don't work. It's like you're running the play, but you don't understand the concept. You gotta understand the I did I put the ball in his belly, but you gotta understand the concept of the read option, the whole concept, man. We're trying to we're trying to see what that defensive end gonna do. We're trying to see what the cornerback or the the the people jerking the rides, what they gonna do, and based on that, it's gonna tell what I'm gonna do. But if you I put it in this bed, see you got methods without the mindset, it don't work. Right, there you go, you don't get manifestation, and so what we've had, we had some uh ministers that have made they had methods but no mindset, or had mindsets

Build Servants By Example, Not Humiliation

Pastor Dowell 38:20

but no method. See, because you because you need to be approachable, helpful, because it's not doing doing the small things, if you don't have all of that, then you don't get the right method. So I think they all work in tandem, and this is what hit me as you were speaking, Pastor C. I think it's so crucial for ministry leaders, pastors, evangelists, apostles, just ministry leaders, because many times what get us is what happened in the book of Acts. We when the apostles said, like when the the problem came out of thinking among the Grecians, and they had a dispute, and then they said, Hey man, we don't have time to serve tables, let's seek out some people because we can give ourselves continuing to fasting in the ministry of the word, and so they let that they serve, but that don't mean we don't serve. What the whole concept is we don't serve in that way, the best use of our service is to serve the word, to serve with organization. Here we go, to serve with preparation, good. It's not that we don't serve, it's not that that's beneath us, but at this stage, the better use of our time and our energy is to serve in this way, and if we don't realize that, then many ministers what they'll do is they'll throw their baby out with the bathwater or they won't have the right back to what you were saying, mindset about serving. So you got to see my preaching as serving, my teaching as serving. So not that I'm just no, I'm that's how I serve. My preparation is serving. See, uh you serve through your preparation. Preparation is not for performance, it is it is ministry before ministry. Preparation of the song, of the sermon, of the food that we're gonna cook, of the things that we're gonna do in the outreach for the conference, from auxiliary, going and buying chips, fixing up the room, making sure the air. It's preparation, it's not performance, it's ministry before ministry. Planning, studying, rehearsing, writing, organizing, decorating, strategizing, creating resources, events, building systems, systems, is service in seed form. You don't study to impress an audience, you study to impact God's people. You don't rehearse to showcase your talents, you rehearse to minister with clarity and excellence. You don't plan events to fill a schedule, you plan to edify souls. Preparation is serving before people ever see you. Hear this preparation is your towel. Preparation is part of your towel. So now, when we as ministry leaders, in whatever way we got to do to get ready before we get to the stage, before the people show up for the event, whatever, look at it now as an actor, your service, and let he that be the greatest among you let him be servant among you. So now you look at,

Practical Moments: Pick Up The Paper

Pastor Dowell 41:50

and I begin to think about this. Is even I was preparing for the podcast, I was thinking, like, Lord, what you know, we didn't share together, but I do don't just show up willy-nilly, like what would I say? Think thinking about it. That's a part of my service. I'm serving today, God, and you put on your devotion and getting your mind right. I'm serving the God. Thank you for another day to serve. Hear this old school song, a charge to keep. I have a God to glorify, to serve the presentation, present age, my calling to fulfill. This is how we serve, ministers. Do you know how you serve? And when we get this, we expand beside now. We know what real, thank you, Lord, true servant leadership is it's serving with my lane with the things that God has given me. So excellence is not about ego, it's about serving with with empty. It's it's it's part of my service. So when you prepare for service, realize that's how we saw when I served. My that's part of my so that's where I start thinking about what it would it look like. What else are you hearing uh with this serving thing, Pastor C. What else are you hearing?

Pastor Cornelius 43:07

I I I I think I think that the time to keep the sewing part a part of it. I think I know you you know I'm gonna talk about this, but I think it fit here as well as we move on in the mistake that I see with it. Because you have dealt with it, I feel like, like you said, and how you broke it down. I think is that so you want to talk about some mistakes in in serving, yeah, yeah. I think in it, because I think you you you have laid a great foundation built built upon it well. Like you said, I end up talking about the the mindset, you dealt with the method, and you just gave examples of ways from our studying. You have helped us to understand the lane, but I think when we when we put the power back in about the sewing, as you know, serving

Stay To Help: Influence In The Margins

Pastor Cornelius 44:00

as you sow, as you're sewing, I think as you're going up, as you're being elevated, I think one of the mistakes is that we assume it, we assume elevation means separation, and um that's a mistake among the I think the fivefold, those in ministry that as we elevate, this means I kind of separate from the people because I'm getting I'm going into a different group, I'm going to another level. So um, you know, I'm showing I'm moving up. God elevated me. So I think we we look at elevation as promotion that God has promoting me. So because of that, I have to separate myself from being among them, and so now I I I I move, and who I'm among is other teachers, other pastors, evangelists, uh prophets, uh apostas, those in the fivefold. So I got out I got elevated, so I'm among them. So since I'm among them, we usually look at we're on the same level, so there's no serving them. I separate from those is not in fivefold, because I've been elevated, and I think with this, that's a mistake. And so when leaders start believing that they hire, you know, the the believing the higher they go, the less they have to do. That's the problem. Oh, I like it. The higher they go, the less they gotta do, the less they have to do. That's a mistake. So then what they do, down, they drift into what I call entitlement. I earn the right to do less. I earn the right to do less, and for folks to do more for me because of who I am. So now you carry, you carry my Bible. Now, now you do such and such because you don't know who I am. I earned this right, I call it earning the right to become entitled because now you feel entitlement. That's a mistake, and then I think another one.

Pastor Dowell 46:29

Can we can can we work that just for a minute? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. I like that. I call that that now. I like how you said, but I called it like some ministers, pastors, apostles, church leaders. It's like they have this mindset, and I think what you're saying, like they earn the right, that they can't wait till they get to the point where somebody can bring me some juice.

Pastor Cornelius 46:51

Yes, yes, yes, you own it.

Pastor Dowell 46:53

That's it. It's kind of like it's like that's the big old now. Somebody can go bring me some juice, yeah.

Celebrate And Expect A Serving Culture

Pastor Dowell 47:01

Like, because I think it's the whole mind, because they feel like they've earned it. And see, that's when you realize now it's not about soaring, so now somebody can serve you. Yes, now you're supposed to do more.

Pastor Cornelius 47:13

That's it.

Pastor Dowell 47:14

And how I deal with the juice thing and the serving thing, but see, I try to teach our leaders is and uh this pastor, people don't bring you juice, they don't bring you water, yeah. They do, they don't carry your Bible, no, sometimes they do, no, all the time, sometimes they do. I call it, but this is the point. I use it like in surgery, and I tell my leaders when a when a person isn't doing surgery, see scalpel, scalpel why because I'm looking at the patient, and what I'm doing is so important, I don't it's it's not best for me to be looking around for scalpel and stuff. I gotta stay focused on this, so I need people to help me, aid me, armor bear me so I can do this. So when I gotta preach and teach and things, sometimes we need certain help so I can focus on this, so so my mind can be on this, and I tell my leaders, it's like when my mind ain't on this, and I go to a restaurant somewhere that leaders like you don't don't open you don't have to open, no open no door for me. You don't you don't have to get me out the car, you don't even have to drive.

Pastor Cornelius 48:31

Gotcha.

Pastor Dowell 48:33

No, why? Because I'm not in surgery now. Man, I'll get the door for you. I'll drive.

Pastor Cornelius 48:38

It's good now.

Pastor Dowell 48:40

I ain't in surgery, but why are you doing on Sunday morning? I'm I'm going to surgery and they want everything for the man of God or whatever. The people come to open the door because uh this is surgery time now, and I think sometimes if if we see these things and don't understand the concept, we'll think that's entitlement. When they come, they open the door for the first lady, they open the door for the pastor, people go and do stuff. We're in we're getting ready, we're in surgery mode. It's kind of like on the football game on game day. It's like, coach, we got this, we got this, they got the water,

360 Serving: Up, Down, And Around

Pastor Dowell 49:10

people giving the water, got ticket sale, we got why? Because we're the focus, but on the day to day, and I think sometimes if we don't know this, see, and we see this, when we finally start soaring and get to certain places, we had that mentality. Oh, now they can open the door, and now you want that all the time. Ah, I don't want to get on that horse. See, what but I'm gonna get on that horse, man. I don't want to get on that horse, man.

Pastor Cornelius 49:33

What with what we're saying here, sometimes they can get too big, too big to serve. And I feel like if you're too big to serve, you already too small to lead because of your mindset, because of your mindset, man. You you you you you too big to serve, you know who I am. So you too big to serve. So I'm letting you know right now, right now, the real problem, you too small to lead because you got a small mentality, your way of thinking. Now, like what you say about that surgeon, that doctor. This is a different situation. So you stay in humility, you stay in humility. So now, because of that, you understand the concept. That's the key, uh, you understand the concept. So now, when you like you say, when you're away, because you understand the concept, because you're away, you ain't looking for nobody to open no door for you, you ain't looking for nobody to do that, you understand the concert. I am not being a surgeon at this moment, yeah.

Pastor Dowell 50:38

And listen, you always are leading people, honor. I it hit me, you understand the assignment. Whoa, some leaders that couldn't nobody taught them the assignment is for you to serve. I got you, I got your bill. You the pastor, you serve no man. If I'm the greatest, not the greatest. Give me the ticket. That's it. Give me the ticket, man. I'm the greatest. Give me a ticket.

Pastor Cornelius 51:12

That's good.

Pastor Dowell 51:13

Not you serving me, because you got to understand the assignment, and I think how we get alignment. I love what you said, Father C. I earned the right. I earned the right. I think that's part of the mistake because it's like leaders feel like serving, it's like you pay your dues. It's kind of almost become like a fraternity and hazing. Now you balance it out. We ain't talking about this. I want you to balance it out. It's like, especially, yeah, all leaders, but especially you know, apostles, bishops, those that lead churches, now all can fall into different rims. But those that lead churches, reformations really can get into this, and this is the mentality. I paid, I paid

Keep A Towel: Title Gains Power Through Service

Pastor Dowell 52:00

my dues, I cleaned toilets, I picked up clothes from cleaners, I cooked meals, we picked up kids from school, we dropped out people from airports, we did it all. We serve. So, guess what? Now is your time, so it became almost like a hazing. So, young minister, young pastor, I'm gonna create and make sure there's opportunities for you to pay your dues. So, you know what? Because we had that mentality that if they're gonna be a good leader, they got to serve because that's what I did, and it's like we passed down the whole rim. Why? Because that's what they did me. They made me go to cleaners. I came up old school, they made me clean toilets, not wrong. Why I they see sometimes it's like you weren't made to, there was a need to, and you had a desire to, and you did it. But what we start doing, we start creating scenarios. It's kind of like this. I had to walk three miles of school because we were poor, we didn't have no busing, and da da da da.

Pastor Cornelius 53:17

Gotcha.

Pastor Dowell 53:17

But because I did that now, I'm gonna I'm gonna create scenarios and make my kids do that.

Pastor Cornelius 53:22

Gotcha.

Pastor Dowell 53:22

Why? Because it worked for me. So now go pick up my cleaners, go get my clothes, go get my clothes. Now, I'm not running on time, I got time to do it. I just want you to do it. I want a hamburger, go pick up Pastor Fry, because you're a young minister, you need to learn to serve, clean the toilets, and I think we got to make sure we don't create a culture of hurt hazing, serving where it just benefits you. I think that's how that could come. See, I don't know what you're hearing that, but I think we're I I know that's uh uh help me because I know leaders know like no man down. They they need to serve because because they humble, but I think it got to be your whole mindset because I think it has to happen organically, there have to be ways that we serve, be taught to serve, but just doing it to have people do your cleaners just to humble the man, then they start doing the same thing. I don't know what are you hearing in that scene.

Pastor Cornelius 54:12

What I'm hearing that down that they're not our people. What I mean by that, they're as the scripture put it, I I like to keep myself, I always have to remind myself the the guys around me that do quote unquote this here for me, or the young minister that I'm training, keeping in mind that they're not my servant. The scripture says that you judge not a man, another man's servant. Who they belong to, they belong to the Lord, they belong to the Lord, so that's my attitude towards them. I suppose to treat them the way I will want to be treated, not saying, like you say, the hazing, and that's

SERVE Acronym And Multi-Tier Service

Pastor Cornelius 55:00

true. I'm gonna I'm it's not my responsibility to make sure they learn servanthood. Uh oh, hold on, see now not by not by doing it that way, but by teaching them, and I say, modeling it, you model it how we learn it. I'm talking about the way the Lord wants us to, the scripture you keep bringing, he modeled it, he modeled that when when he got that and got that tower and began to wash their feet, and so he was basically telling the disciples, you do the same, because the greatest among you should be a servant, but he wasn't forcing them and saying, you know, go get the donkey. You you knew among us, you go get the donkey, you go get him and bring him back. No, uh-uh, they ain't the way you do it.

Pastor Dowell 55:53

Well, let me help let's help let's help ministry leaders and those that will be leaders, not to make them rebel against their leader, correct, be down, but let's teach it the right way then. Because so what we do is when we're gonna because I was what I was hearing is this that could be part of the problem with these leaders, this new generation of leaders who are entitled, who yeah, entitled, don't want to serve, is because the leaders like you and Pastor Dow. Y'all, y'all, y'all, y'all had this mindset that you are making these young folks serve like we did back in the day. My bishop, apostle so-and-so. All the preachers had to do this. If he was sweating, they had to get the towel and wipe his forehead. They had to go one day. We had to rotate and go get our bishops cleaning. We had to go wash his car, clean his car. First day the car wasn't dirty either. And you know what that did? That taught me to serve, it worked for me, and that's why y'all don't do that. Y'all messing these young preachers up, just giving them time in the pulpit, and everybody on the podcast and all this. That's part of the problem. But what I hear you saying is, and I want to speak to that, is like what we do, how we go about helping them learn to become service is not making but modeling, yes, yes, not by just giving them not by just giving them tasks, but by giving them teaching. Yes, not that we don't give them tasks, but the whole goal of the task is because it needs to be done, not just as a an experiment that we're gonna teach you. Because I had a leader that did me like that, Passy, when I was in the military. I'm telling I resented. I had a when I was I was a young private, and I I worked for a chaplain, and I remember vividly, you know, he he would have me do stuff and have me go over walls and have assignments that I couldn't do to quote unquote teach me some lessons in navigation.

Boundaries, Humility, And Handling Old-School Demands

Pastor Dowell 58:01

So I remember having to go make like hospital visits and stuff to see the soldiers and not and had no vehicle or anything. So it's like that's how you're gonna learn to navigate, and it's like like you set people up for failure. It's like I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna put you in a scenario where you will fail because that's how I'm gonna teach you. Instead of when scenarios happen and you fail, we teach you. I think that's a flaw in that system.

Pastor Cornelius 58:36

Don, you playing with first of all, you're playing with the Lord's servants. You are. I I I I look at that like that, and I can't see that being pleasing them to the Lord. That's number one, that's the spiritual side. The practical side of that is I think you breaking their spirit instead of building their spirit. Oh, see, and we are we are to all go back to break them.

Pastor Dowell 58:58

We're not supposed to break them down because that's what they do to soldiers. No, break them down to build you back up, right?

Pastor Cornelius 59:04

I don't think we're supposed to break them.

Pastor Dowell 59:06

We are we in the building up business, and like I say, but don't that make them humble when you break them and humiliate them, make that preacher clean toilets? No, to me, are you against preachers cleaning toilets, Pastor? No, because I did it. So look at you, you're a servant, right?

Pastor Cornelius 59:23

Does that what made you a servant? No, no, no, no. What what what made me a servant? What what made me a servant now is what you brought up earlier, and what I I firmly believe is the mindset, the attitude I have always visualized had nothing to do with the toilets, nothing to do with now you ain't cleaning toilets, are you?

Pastor Dowell 59:51

Sometimes because because it's time I cleaned the toilet the other day, it just happened to be my own. I cleaned it. My wife didn't clean it, I cleaned it.

Pastor Cornelius 1:00:00

It it's like you at time you go in there at the night clean, I ain't got time to clean nobody, I'm cleaning it myself because especially at my setup, I as you know, I have a bathroom and all in my quarters here at the church, so I have to keep that clean myself. We do have a custodian clean, but it's times whenever I have to do it myself, and so it's not like hey, I can't, hey, no, I no, hey, this be your I used to do this, I don't have to do this no more. No, that's not the attitude. My mindset has always been that a true leader serves, that you truly serve by example. Now, what I was finna say for me and the leaders around me is I they seem to want to serve down because they watch me serve. That have always been my thing. They recognize pastor get out there, pastor do it. So it's like, hey, if pastor good enough to do it, all of us could do it because that's pastor. So that's me modeling that, that's me showing that. And that's to me, whenever I'm away and I'm I'm not being the surgeon, how you put it, and I'm serving, I think then they have a better, I'm showing them how much I appreciate them, and that gives them even a better appreciation for me, right? Because they recognize I appreciate them, and therefore they appreciate that, and I don't have to ask

Closing Exhortation And Contact Info

Pastor Cornelius 1:01:30

them to do, they do.

Pastor Dowell 1:01:31

So let's help the ministry leaders and hope they can apply it as a leader in the auxiliary, worship, children, marriage, okay, altar, serving, hospitality, or just over there, whatever they're doing over there, conference leader, whatever. Because what I'm hearing with you is how how you implement this is how you do it within your ministry. Give us some principle because uh maybe you had another one to add. So I'm saying within your ministry, how that looks like so people can know how to do it organizationally. What I'm hearing you say, you model it, yeah, you model serving, not make them serve, you model serving, and by modeling it, it helped them to catch it, it helped them to get it. Okay, so that's when you serve, then what does that look like to help people that you say they see me serve? What do you mean they see you like cutting the trees down? When you say that, I mean, let's break it down the comments so people can really catch it.

Pastor Cornelius 1:02:35

In different ways, I finna say to you on a Sunday, on a Sunday, this past Sunday, I ministered to maybe 250, 300 people, right? But at the same time, when I was leaving, I was going to another service. There was a piece of paper there right down there that was there. I picked up, I took the time to pick that up and took a bite. So, you know, I'm getting them a cop, the guy see me, but the paper there. So I wouldn't like a Frank, pick up that paper, man. I picked up the paper. I just one part of me just got through serving because I just got through preaching 200-300 people. The other side of me just picked up one piece of paper, but I made an impact on the young man, the deacon that was standing there. Not that he wouldn't have picked it up, I could have asked him to pick it up, and I would I would have known how to do it in a way where you know, hey, that paper, I picked it up.

Pastor Dowell 1:03:31

And see, I I what I hear the principle is leaders, whatever area, when there's opportunity for you to serve, hit this outside of your gift. Now I want you to see your gift is serving, prayer, all those spiritual things. But when there's opportunities for you to do things outside of your gift that we let's call on a ground level, on a common level, don't miss it. And what I mean by that is that's why I start with the attitude. How I walk this out, I clean toilets coming up, carpets coming up with one of my elders now when we were ministers of church, and he he respect me for that because I mean we cleaned, we did together. I was a minister. He was my point is like we were at a whenever there's a church event, unless it's like another leader there, like say if you were a guest there with me, you're a little different because you're family, but it's there was another ministry there, leader there, and I'm entertaining. If we're breaking down and they they moving chairs and everything, unless it's something that I really gotta go, I'm not gonna just leave them there. I'm gonna I'm gonna like grab a chair, and they're like, No, Pastor, you don't have to. It's like you I ain't doing it for them to tell me they're like, No, man, we I'm helping. Now, if it's another leader that I gotta entertain, that's different. Or if it's enough, if the team is like, we got it, Pastor, we got a big team, we're gonna knock this out. But even in that, I'll still try to help. But if I realize it's like a motley crew and everybody hands on deck, I don't go just standing on the side. Now I've seen leaders. I've seen leaders who was not the leader. That's right. They're not even the leader, just sit, sit back, yeah, cross their legs, yes, drink juice, and and and and don't serve while everybody else is moving like chicken with the head cut out, and they don't realize you missed an opportunity to gain influence, you missed an opportunity to gain credibility by serving. And I know their mindset. Well, this wasn't my event, I'm a leader, this is my time off, I'm not a part of the team, I want to just come to events sometimes and just be able to like relax. I want to just come to events sometime, and I want to just be able to go. Why? Because as a leader, I know the low. I get that, I can understand that I don't have a problem with that, but when you're the greatest, too much is given, much is required. Why? Because sometimes it becomes a bad look for you to sit while others are moving and you're not, or for you to jet early. It's like Pastor, do we stay then? I wasn't on the team, it's a wisdom thing, it's not um have to, it's just you got to be wise with that because if you just jet on everybody else, then what do you see in that? See, because that's some practical things where leaders can find themselves jamming up. Are you hearing that? Does that make sense? That might be I don't know if that's a comedy clearance.

Pastor Cornelius 1:06:45

Yeah, all that makes sense, and you was asking me how do I do it? And I brought you say I noticed you say you moderate. Another thing I think tying with that down and the way you just presented it, I also celebrate it. I celebrate that, I make it known to the ones that did stay and do it that this how you do it, and I do that for the ones that did not stay and do it. No, that ain't the way to do it.

Pastor Dowell 1:07:11

How do you feel about that? Sometimes people feel like, you know, I do this all the time, and now I want to have my break, you know. I mean, because you know it's not my program, and now I want to be able to just leave sometime.

Pastor Cornelius 1:07:24

I'm raising my hand with a purpose in mind, I'm the same way, but I still have to do it because that's what a servant does. I feel exactly what you just like you said.

Pastor Dowell 1:07:33

So nothing wrong with having those feelings, yeah.

Pastor Cornelius 1:07:35

See, so what you have to do is back to that mindset. I feel the same way at times, but I still have to do it, and the reason why I have to do it, once again, I'm modeling that, I'm modeling that.

Pastor Dowell 1:07:46

And see, I look at it this way I know what you said, like you have to do it. I think when you take on the servant, you realize this is an opportunity to up level your influence.

Pastor Cornelius 1:07:56

It I just you you took out the words out of my mouth. When I when I'm saying I have to, it's because of the position I carry, I have to to make the impact I need to make. Just making an impact, and so this is what I do. I'm out of that, I'm showing that, I'm impacting this an opportunity for me to make a greater impact. How? Because they recognize it, and I'm telling you, down, then the other time around, others want to the other leaders that maybe not be the leader, but a leader want to do because what they seen the leader do.

Pastor Dowell 1:08:33

Okay, so you you you model it, you make a big you you celebrate it, make a deal, big deal out of it.

Pastor Cornelius 1:08:42

And and I'm what's another is anything else with it? Yeah, it's something else too with it. How I said it, and I expect it. I'm telling you, you don't stay on the team with me if you're not one. I expect it. I expect it, I celebrate it, and I'm on it. So I expect you to do it to serve remain on the team. How do you expect it? Well, like meaning that like if you don't serve, you can't lead. You can't lead. Because what remember the statement I shared with you earlier? I'm a firm believer that that if you if if if if you too big to serve, you too small to lead. I'm a firm believer of it.

Pastor Dowell 1:09:27

See, let me let me show you. That's good. I like that. Model it, teach it, have an expectation for it. So, what you've done, you built a culture of serving. Yes, yes. Let me give you our metrics of how we build a culture, at least I attempt to. I'll call it a 360. So I think you can have to apply it to whatever level your leadership. One way I try to do it is I call it like a 360 serving. And what I mean 360, normally we think serving liney linear, that you know, you serve the leader, serve the pastor, then we take it, we serve the visitors. You either serve in the pastor, and then the pastor encourage everybody else to serve the guests, serve the new people, serve the visitors, so it becomes linear. But I think what it is is we don't serve down or up, we serve around. That's good. We serve up or down, we serve around. So 360, yes, serve the pastor, because we always get that serve the pastor first, yeah. But then pastors serve the leaders, and the leaders serve the leaders, and we serve the people, and we serve the visitors, it's a 360. It's not that everybody serve the visitors and forget about the people that's already here. No, we serve everyone, it's a 360. So leaders serve followers, followers serve leaders, teams serve one another. The pastor serves, so I model it same as you teach it and train it. Then I try to normalize it that that become the norm. And now, like you said, you stick out like a sore thumb if you don't. If you don't have a servant, you stick out, it you look strange. And when you you look strange and and everybody and you stick out, why? Because it's like everybody serve here because you'll be the only one sitting on the side, you'll be the only one that it and you you and I it become the team show you, they ain't even got to tell you because this because like you look abnormal, it's like everybody else got on red shoes, you got on blue, and so that's how we try to model the teacher, train it, normalize. I just do the three, we try to three, six, and I try to model it, teach and train, and so it's not just don't just serve me, not just the visitors. So that's one way, and I think if we can maybe get that in every leader's department, that might be a practical way very good, do it, and those are the mistakes that I've seen in that. If I said mistakes, they serve just the pastors, it's a linear, or we just try to serve the visitors. I think it need to be 360. Pastor C Man, uh man, this time flies on the podcast. What are some other things about uh serving that maybe that we didn't we didn't share that maybe be in your heart that you want to share before we close?

Pastor Cornelius 1:12:21

I think one of the main things that I emphasize with the down that you you you touched on a little bit earlier in in Daddy is the tower mentality, that you have to keep a tower mentality, keep a towel with you at all times. So let me explain what I mean by a towel is and is that that tower represents serving, a servant attitude, like you like like you brought up earlier, you know, that you know that servant that that servant attitude. So when I say you know, when I say that of a having a towel, because I think I don't think having a tower to never never take away from your title. But having a tower, a title without without a tower, take away from your power of your title, if that makes sense. So I think what I mean by that top taking away that power, your influence, your ability to impite, is because you never carry a towel. All you talk about is your title. But if you carry a towel, folks will always respect your title.

Pastor Dowell 1:13:37

Rewind that man, yeah.

Pastor Cornelius 1:13:39

So if you carry that title, that towel, folks will always respect your title.

Pastor Dowell 1:13:46

Why is that? That's so good. Why is that, Pastor C? Help your ministers and leaders see that that if you always carry a towel, yes, they'll respect your title.

Pastor Cornelius 1:13:55

Yes, because you can do so much with the towel, with the attitude of a servant. Number one, we talked about it earlier when we're sowing, and I talked about raising up people, you ain't being raised up. Guess what you can do with a towel? Somebody can grab hold to it. Back into what you were saying to us earlier. You were talking about the different giftings that we do. That's a form of a not the tower, that's the form of a tower because you said that's the form of serving, so you can use that to pull people up with that same towel, is what Jesus did. You can use it to wash people's feet. What that represents for me is you serving others, you're willing to serve others with that towel, with that same tower down. You can pull people out of some stuff. Now you serving. Like you just got through saying the time in you putting in with this here, you know, the time I like you said before we got on this call, I had to do some stuff for my community. Well, I was using a towel, not my towel, not my towel. You heard the conversation. I never referred to the lady, oh, this Reverend Cornelius. No, no, no, no, no, no. Right now I need my towel. I was telling her this is the need. Hey, what could we do to improve this, make this better? I threw out my towel to try to bring some things to make it better in the community. So I was serving in that way. What benefit do I get out of it? Nothing. No benefit for me, it's benefit for others. So I think that's the key, man. I honestly think that's that you know, that's the key, is if if you see anything else I see with it, it's making sure your emphasis is with the towel and not the title.

Pastor Dowell 1:15:42

Wow, this is good. My final thoughts not here, yours. A couple things hit me is when I think about the serve, I thought about an acronym to help people in there. But we talked about data serve that you want to see and support others through lifting them up, leaving the breadcrumbs, you want to see and support, like that towel. That's the S E elevate by example. So that's the model. So you want to elevate by example through your preparation, your excellence, your humility. That's how I serve. I you want to be an example in all that you do in your labor, but also in your results. Yes, so you look at that as serving, not to impress, but to impress upon people the need for excellence, trying to impress people, but make an impact, like you say. So it's about that. Then the R to reach back. I'm serving, I'm uh whenever you're giving back and reaching back, especially when people can't repay you, but sometimes when they can't, but also your service become also in your products that are sold. See that part of your if you when you learn to serve on another level, then you'll see sales on another level. See, see if you if you serve on another level and you serve people on different peer things. I'm gonna just drop this real quick. You serve them on a free level, you serve them on a a smaller level, a lower tier, five, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, thirty, thirty-five, forty, forty-five, fifty, fifty thousand, sixty-five, sixty, sixty five, seven, seven, five, eighty, hundred. Serve them on that level, five to a hundred. Then you serve them on another level, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500. Mid tier. Now you can serve now. You have products and serve, you can serve them on a higher ticket level, thousand, two, three, four, five. See, when you serve on different levels, you'll see sales on a different level. But all if you do is serve on the free level, you ain't seeing no sales on the other level. If all you serve is on a up to a hundred dollar level, and you don't serve, you have nothing to serve people who want to pay five hundred dollars. You don't have nothing people who who who want to invest thousand dollars when you you say you need to up your serving game. You ain't serving enough.

Pastor Cornelius 1:18:12

That's good.

Pastor Dowell 1:18:13

You ain't serving enough. You need to up your serving game. You ain't serving. So I think is you want to reach back and then you want to be value people, not just position. I value people enough that I got stuff to serve people who have zero dollars. I value people enough that I got cheap products. Then I value people who sometimes I don't want cheap, I want quality. Don't just have ten dollar shoes. I want my feet sore, I got bad feet. I need a good pair of gloves. Serve, what do you got for me? Then you got people who say, you know what? I'm not bougie, but I've been a good steward of my money. I want something that's gonna last. Price is not the option. I want what I want, I want something that's gonna help me reach my goal, whatever I want. Are you able to serve that person? See, you want to value people on every level, not just the broke level, not just well, oh, you got this high stuff, you ain't got nothing to help the little man. You want to engage in 360 serving. I thought I'd just throw that out. That's what I think about serving. See, so when you look at serving a whole nother level now, up your serving game because the greatest among you, iPhone, the greatest among you, serving millions of people, football, NFL, serving me, serving up entertainment, and you serve on another level. God can trust you on another level. The whole thing about you serving is so that you can serve. That's why you go to the greatest hotels and what they are known for. They're serving service. I don't mind paying, I don't mind paying it, because they give me good service. I don't mind paying it, see, because I don't mind paying it because of the Service service. I mean, you just said something.

Pastor Cornelius 1:20:05

I end with this. I tell you, man. I wrote it down. I end with this right here, man. You said it. That was good. You said it. I say, if God can trust you with a towel, if he can trust you with a towel, he can trust you with a towel. But if he cannot trust you with a towel, he can't trust you with a towel.

Pastor Dowell 1:20:30

I love that. It just hit me. I'm picking off you. If he can trust you to make a difference, then he can trust you to make money.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:40

Yes.

Pastor Dowell 1:20:44

Good. You ain't making money. You ain't making dollars because you won't make a difference with your service. You won't make a difference with your service. You'll never make dollars. So you just trying to make dollars with your service. But you ain't even making a difference with your service. You ain't gonna make no dollars with your service. You know how to make a difference with it.

Pastor Cornelius 1:21:03

You got to stay almost, man. You got to stay almost, you got to stay grounded. You got to stay almost, you got to stay grounded, and you gotta keep your hands busy, busy blessing others, serving others, keep your hands busy serving others, stay grounded. That's what I would end with, and stay humble.

Pastor Dowell 1:21:23

No, don't end. We're gonna we're gonna we're we're gonna close it, man. They can they can catch it when they get through working out and they get off work. We're gonna close though, but here this real quick, because we want to be complete. The leader who we talked about being made to do, if there's a leader, we correct, we have the leader that may be doing it, see another mindset. But if they're getting that, what advice would you offer to the minister leader who might be in a position like that? Because we ain't trying to cause a revolt, trying to say that they gotta leave or move. How do they handle that? If there's somebody that came across this and they're like, Man, I'm kind of getting haste. My pastor's old school, my bishop, my apostle old school, my first lady. I kind of seem like they doing it because they really believe in that humility thing, and they want to make sure that the people not that, and I'm realizing that man, I'm kind of getting like they I don't have to walk three miles, they making me walk three miles because they realize they want us to be humble. How do you and it what advice would you have uh for that minister?

Pastor Cornelius 1:22:34

First of all, you want to keep an attitude and recognize now, even in this, that serving is not a step down. So I think that's gonna help him with it because see, even in it now, if they feel like after hearing like even what we were just sharing, and like you said, they'll feel like oh well the way he's doing this, and listening to them, it's like it's a step down. Man, I'm being played. I'm being played, so we're not saying that. What we're saying, you still stay um, you still say um. That's one of the things I would highly recommend. Like I just got through saying, is that you do stay um now back to what me and you talked about in the very beginning about wing with this wings that W got to use some wisdom, and something you text me this week, just this week, hit me while listening when you was asking the question, and you got to lean in and get your strategies from the Lord about what your next move. If it is a move, Lord, is this where you want me at? This is what you got me doing. I want to stay in my place, give me strength, help me and stay humble, help me, give me wisdom in this year, give me the strategy and the direction in this year to stay humble that I might walk in and do the right thing and keep the right attitude towards my my my leader. That's what I say. So you keep working the work. If this way you feel led, this is where God got you at, you work it because if you kick against it or against the leader and what they're asking you to do, you're saying, oh no, no, uh-uh, no, uh-uh, this is a step down for me. No, if you get that type of attitude, God ain't happy with that attitude, it's not a good thing, so you got to keep the right attitude about it.

Pastor Dowell 1:24:33

I love that, and what I add in that, I love that getting the strategy and the wisdom. I would say don't don't throw out the 80 for the 20 either. Just because we brought this up, it wasn't a problem before, or you or we brought confirmation you felt somewhere wrong. Just because there's a problem, that don't mean you throw out the 80 for the 20, but you got to be prayerful and mindful regarding it. So it's not don't make sure it's not a deal breaker, don't it don't necessarily have to be a deal breaker. So why the it's not right, it's not because gotta give you wisdom because part of it might not be just a deal breaker, you want to keep the right attitude, and one thing you won't don't want to do, don't spread that to others. If this is how you feel and what you see, don't try to get other people on board without this is not right. Now you're sowing discord among the brethren. Don't do that. This is not what this podcast is for. Don't do that. So, what do I do? One thing you can do as you're praying about in wisdom would be learn to say no and draw healthy boundaries for you. You don't got to talk to nobody else about it. What do you mean, healthy boundaries and no for you? Well, let your leader, first lady, pastor, bishop, apostle know, you know, keep your attitude. You know what? What we do, da-da-da. I love, I we appreciate you and all you've done for me. You know, what'll work good for me is like every on the first Sundays, uh, you know, with my family, what we got, we'll we can do da-da-da, what you need done then, or like these days work for da-da-da, you know, that you don't mind serving, but you wanted to be within bounds and reasons, so don't stop serving. But if you know if it's an inconvenience, overkill, certain things, you got to learn to set those boundaries and then be able to say in a humble, respectful way, no, not not able to. Sorry, Pastor, not able to. Sorry, I wish I could right now to sorry, can't and and if they're the right God's leader, they'll have to be okay with that. You gotta learn those boundaries, and then I think that's where you walk it up with humility, not just because you just want to say no. But right now, I can't get my baby out in the cold to go and do this, and this was a last minute notice. Sorry, Pastor. I sorry, past, I just my just laid my baby down. I can try to see if you can find somebody else. I can make some calls for you, but I can't. That's wisdom where you learn how to do things wisely. Don't poison your pastor, don't speak negatively. I just felt led to say that. I wanted to share the end last thing in that past C because I really want to hear that. That's on it, that's on it, man. That's own it. That's good. We wanted to just serve you, man. Wings, wings from a caterpillar to a butterfly. We pray in this series that you got your wings now. It's time to fly. The whole thing is for you to serve on another level. I hope they hear that now. See, on another level. Level. Thank you, my friend, for this podcast series. This has been a blessing. We pray that you've been blessed. Email us, send us a send us an email. Email me at newlifepastor1gmail.com. Let me know how the podcast has been blessing you. Make some comments there on Facebook or if you're watching a YouTube. Shoot Dr. Canelius also an email. Let him know. Uh, house blessed you. Look forward to our next time together, our next time of ministry. We pray, five four minister, that you have eaten well and now you will excel. This has been Dr. Robert F. Dowell and my podcast partner, Dr. Canelius, until our next time together. See you next time. Looking forward to our next one, Pastor C.

Pastor Cornelius 1:28:45

Looking forward to miss also, man.

Pastor Dowell 1:28:47

All right, good night, everybody.