Pulpit Delivery: How Preachers Create Impact & Hold the Room

You can preach an accurate word and still lose the room. That tension is what we tackle as we talk about discovering your pulpit delivery and finding your preaching voice, because the goal is not only to be right, but to make impact that leads to transformation.

We start by clearing up a common confusion for pastors, ministers, and fivefold ministry leaders: hermeneutics is the responsibility of interpreting the biblical text faithfully, while homiletics is the craft of constructing and delivering the message. We also explain why terms like expository preaching, topical preaching, and narrative preaching describe preaching structures and delivery methods, not different ways to interpret Scripture. When we mix those categories, we either chase labels or copy styles instead of learning how to communicate clearly.

From there, we get practical about why delivery matters. We unpack the difference between accuracy and clarity, and why information alone does not produce spiritual change. Our framework is simple and challenging: transformation travels from head to heart to hands. Listeners need understanding, then connection, then action through the Holy Spirit. That is why engaging is not compromising. It is stewardship. We also lay out two powerful approaches you can develop on purpose: narrative-centered preaching that lets people experience the text like a scene, and principle-centered preaching that organizes timeless truths into memorable “handles” people can keep.

We close with tools you can use immediately: how illustrations bridge the gap between then and now, how personal stories humanize truth and help points land, and how to grow through studying Jesus’ sermons, practicing both narrative and principles from any text, building emotional intelligence, and preaching from overflow instead of pressure. Subscribe, share this with a ministry friend, and leave a rating and review so more preachers can find it.

Transcript

Welcome And How To Subscribe

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Fivefold Food Podcast, hosted by Dr. Robert F. Dial, where ministers receive the spiritual nourishment they need to receive. The Word of God declares and gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the perfection of the faith. Prepare to receive revelation, wisdom, and insight.

Pastor Dowell 0:37

Well, praise the Lord. God bless each and every one of you. Welcome to the Five Fold Food Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Robert F. Dow, and I'm so delighted that you've chosen to be with us for another podcast. Go ahead and pull your chair up to the table as we get ready to serve up some five-fold food for the fivefold ministry leader. So glad that you're here. I want to encourage you, no matter what platform you may be watching, uh listening to this podcast, that you will please subscribe, like and subscribe so that you can get the latest podcast. If you're on iTunes or Spotify, go ahead and hit subscribe, it'll go right uh to your device and you'll be able to get the latest uh podcasts as they come out. Also, if you're on YouTube, be sure that you do like and subscribe as well. For those that are YouTube listeners, if you uh subscribe on the iTunes sometime when you're not able to watch the video, you're at the gym or somewhere, you'll be able to have that audio version as well. We're so glad that you're here. Want to ask that those that are on our uh Spotify or iTunes, please be sure that you leave us a rating, give us a five-star rating and a review. Let us know how you're enjoying uh the podcast and share it out with another ministry friend. Also, look in the show notes, you'll find many great resources that I believe will be available unto you that'll bless you in a powerful way. You also, for those that are watching on YouTube, you can click and scan the QR code for the ministry link tree where you'll find resources that'll help you in your fivefold uh ministry. And so, again, I'm so delighted to have you with us today. Again, as always, I'm joined by my fivefold food podcast partner. Glad to have Dr. CP Canadius with us. Well, Pastor C, it's about that time for another podcast. How are we doing today, man of God?

Pastor Cornelius 2:35

Doing well, man. Good, wealthy here in Florida, man. Everything looking real good outside, having a great day, man. Great, marvelous day. Glad to be here.

Pastor Dowell 2:46

I am I am too. We you know, we're gonna cook up some fivefold food. I'm excited because I I have no idea uh what you're bringing to the table. You have no idea what I'm bringing to the table. All we're knowing is we're having barbecue.

Discovering Your Pulpit Delivery

Pastor Dowell 3:00

We don't know somebody bringing ribs, you bring hot dogs, hot links. All we know that we're having a five-fold food podcast, and today we're going to be looking at the subject of discovering your poor pit delivery. So that's what we're going to be cooking up today. Discovering your poor pit delivery. We're continuing in a time of a series that we have been teaching on, Pastor C, where we have been dealing with finding your preaching voice. Yes, you've only gotten one episode in this podcast. Go back on YouTube, look on our playlist or on the iTunes, get the other messages where we've been looking at how to discover uh your preaching voice. Well, today we're dealing with discovering uh your pulpit uh delivery, how you uh deliver uh

Hermeneutics Versus Homiletics Explained

Pastor Dowell 3:57

the word of God. But I thought, Pastor C, before we dive into today's message, I was thinking, I thought that we needed to make sure that we clarify a couple of things because uh what comes to mind uh to make sure we have a clear framework, when we think about uh discovering our voice or pulpit delivery, a couple of things that come to mind. I want to make sure that we don't get these two things mixed up. Uh what happens is uh we get the subject of hermeneutics and homiletics uh uh kind of intertwined. And today we're dealing with the homiletic part, which deals with your delivery, and so uh one is hermeneutics, it deals with the discovery of the text, right? Hermeneutics, hermeneutics deals with the construction and the uh delivering of the text, right? And so hermeneutics is it's just it's dealing with truths, it's uh it's established biblical guidelines and grounds. There's really no debate or discussion when it comes to uh hermeneutics, how that we interpret the scripture. Uh, it's not about personality, it's not about your style. Hermeneutics is not about your personality, it's not about your style, it's not about your preference, it's really about a responsibility uh to be true to uh the text of the scripture. But when it comes to homiletics, it deals with the construction or the delivery, and the homiletic is how we craft it, it might involve some of your personality, it might be, and so we want to make sure that we understand today we're dealing with homiletics and not hermeneutics, and it's important because there's terms that we hear often uh in preacher terms, Pastor C, we hear this term of expository, and many times we we hear uh expository teaching, expository preaching, and in some circles it has been kind of deemed and labeled uh that expository preaching is like the it is the it is the uh uh the top of top notch, it is it is the highest goal, and in some circles, it is the only true goal if you're having what they call expository preaching. We hear expository preaching, topical preaching, we hear about narrative preaching, but I want to make sure we're clear on that those are not hermeneutics, those are homiletic structures because expository preaching, it is a type of preaching, it deals with your delivery, not with your not with your interpretation, and so when we when we look at those things, many times people don't realize uh in that expository deals with your delivery, how you approach the text and how you teach the text, not about how you interpret the text. And so I thought that was uh needed to be shared today because when we're sharing today, uh we're talking about not hermeneutics, but we're talking about homiletics. And so I thought it was needful that we deal with that because when we talk about those that may not be familiar, Pastor C, when we talk about expository, it stays with only one text, it explains it line on line, uh, it deals with the author's original intent. It really not even cross-references a lot of scripture, it's usually that, and so and that's expository preaching or teaching, that's a homiletic, not a hermeneutic. Uh uh hermeneutic, those are agreed upon uh script uh guidelines, how we interpret a scripture, and so today we're dealing with the homiletic uh of it, and so and we won't deal with the exhaustive different homiletical styles like today. We won't deal with the homiletical style of an expository preaching, it's positive that's a style, and there's other styles, but we're gonna deal with some of those today. So we won't be able to do an exhaustive study, but we wanted to be sure that we do a focus uh study uh

Why Accurate Sermons Still Miss

Pastor Dowell 8:03

in that. Having said that, uh uh Dr. Canese, I think a great place uh to begin uh this uh study, uh this discussion today, and talking about discovering your pulpit uh delivery is this when we talk about pulpit uh delivery, why uh why does this really matter? You know, what does it matter how we deliver a word? You know, uh why and I and I thought we'll just get kind of right to the crux of the matter. I would say this: why do you think so many preachers, we've had this discussion sometime before, that they really can, and people have brought us they can preach an accurate word uh that's biblical yet still struggle uh to connect with people or make a lasting impact? And I'm one of the first to say I can't say that in every sermon I'm batting a thousand, that every sermon that you know I since I began preaching, uh, that I knock every sermon out of the park. And so we don't approach this as we're some gurus in this, but why do you think some preachers struggle uh with making a connection and making a lasting impact?

Pastor Cornelius 9:14

I I first of all, I think we have to understand that I know what you said about being accurate, right? I curate is not the same as clarity when you're being clear, um, meaning that you can have it right, the interpretation, like what you were bringing up earlier, and theologically everything is correct, but emotionally, aprically, you're not clear, it's not clear. So I think that's why this is one of the reasons why it's important now. Over near my near my eight eight, it um allow me to paraphrase it, it says that they read and gave the sense and helped that helped them to understand. So, in other words, they're in my when it says they got into the book of the law, they read it and they gave them the sense that help gave them the sense to understand, how to help them understand, so they just didn't read it, they they didn't just read the law, but they explained it in a way where the people could grasp it, where they can grab hold to it. So you always saying, but they was able when they were able to pick up what was being put down. So some some preachers explain what the text meant, but never show what it means now. What does it mean now? They show what it meant, but they don't explain what the text meant now, what it means now. See what it meant, but what about now? So I think that we have to understand first of all, accuracy is not necessarily the same as clarity. Second thing I would say is that inform why this is important because information does not equal transformation. People don't change just because they get information. People can can leave informed but not changed. So, what happens? Transformation usually happens when the text is explained. And you take that text, you explain that text, and the principal is attracted. When you get that principle out there, okay, and the listener can see themselves when the hearers can see themselves in it. Now all of a sudden, sudden change takes place because now that spirit of application comes upon them. So I give these three and I'll be done. I say transformation moves. First of all, let's say the head. What's the head? The head is the understanding. Okay, what once you get it in the head, they get an understanding. The heart. That's when the listeners see themselves on the inside. When they when they see themselves in it, on the inside, they see themselves. That's the heart. And then the hands is when the spirit takes that thing and it comes into action. You have the head, you have the heart, you have the hands. Head, that's when that text is explained and they get an understanding. Okay, then it gets in the heart. That's when the listeners see themselves in it. That's why I think this is important. They get to see themselves. That means they get in the heart, and then the hands represent now the Holy Spirit take that thing, it and they put what they hear in now because of the work of the Lord Spirit, they put it into action, and so now you see a change. So it don't move it. If if it doesn't move down from the head to the heart to the hands, it won't change lives.

Pastor Dowell 12:49

Wow, that's good, it will not change lives. And picking up the baton, our goal as preachers is change lives through the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, there you go. So if we reverse engineer, if our goal is change lives through the power of the Holy Spirit, people apply. So, in order for them to get that change lives through the power of the Holy Spirit, which you call transformation, it has to happen in their hands, the doing. Yes, here is the doing. Right before it gets to the hand, it gotta be in their heart, right? But then before it gets in their heart, they gotta get it in their head. That's the understanding, and so we have to have the whole process that's right in order to be effective. There we go. And so what what I see in that, I think that's so important because all that deals with our delivery, yeah, that deals with our delivery, that's right, not necessarily about our accuracy of our hermeneutic. See, our hermeneutic, we might have a right hermeneutic, a right understanding from the work, but if we don't get the delivery part right, then we won't get the end goal right. Because, see, uh preachers a reason I think this is important because the delivery that's the whole thing, we got to deliver the goods. See, let me let me let me I put it this way, Pastor C why preachers can be accurate, they can be biblical, yet they don't connect with the people and they don't make a lasting impact, the lasting impact. Why? Because see, our goal should be accuracy and impact. But if we haven't been taught this or brought this out as preacher, yes, we need to that's first, we got to be accurate. But if the goal is only accuracy, we won't get the transformation. We have to make an impact, and accuracy, like you said, don't always mean clarity, and it doesn't always mean that it's impactful to people. Uh, see, see, a message can be right, but never still reach the heart. It could be right, but only impact the head. But if it's not delivered right, good God in Zion, it'll never touch the heart. It was accurate enough to touch the head, but it wasn't delivered enough with enough skill and ministerial expertise and anointing to touch the heart that move the hand.

Engaging Without Performing

Pastor Dowell 15:12

So we got to be we have to be taught that. Some ministers they only focus on the revelation they have. That's why we need this message on discovering your pulpit uh delivery because they only focus on the revelation, you know. Man, what God showed me when I was studying the scripture, I was praying, I was exegeting the text, I looked at in the Hebrew, I'll hear the preacher. They only focus on their revelation and not the presentation. They they they they're they're not keen in on getting good presentation skills, presentation things, and so so you can be accurate. Another reason this is so important. I liken that this the example I see is like uh having good healthy food. You know, you can have food that is healthy and good for you, but not desirable to you. It's good, it's healthy, but it's not desirable, it can taste good. But it can't, but it was now it can be good, but don't taste good. And if it doesn't taste good, if a message doesn't taste good, people will stop listening, even though it's nourishing, even though the food is good, even the baby, if the food don't a baby turn his head. Grown folk uh smell it and I don't, I don't, I don't want that, or taste it, don't want that. That says good for you, it don't taste good. I don't care how good it's for me, I don't want that because it don't taste good. And so what happens is as preachers, if we don't make sure that we'll we'll deliver in a word that can connect that also is good and tastes good, then people will stop listening and because our delivery wasn't right, and so then someone uh uh uh says this thing, then we're talking about that we have to have sugar-coated messages that we should, you know, sugarcoat messages and just preach. See, this is the thing where we have to be taught, they confuse entertaining with engaging. Our messages are not our goal as not a preacher, we're not entertainers tap dancing and putting on a show. You talked in one of the previous podcasts, Dr. Caniz, about performing. When we don't find our voice, we perform, we're not performers on a stage, we're man. We're not we're not we're not really even preaching to a jury, you know what I mean? Trying to convince them and we'll we're preaching the gospel because this is truth, and we're gonna tell the whole truth. So, what we're we're we're we're we're preaching, that's one side of it, but we don't perform, but we have to realize we're not entertaining, but this is the revelation of the difference, not entering, but it still needs to be engaging. That's true, because if we leave out the engaging part, we'll have food, we'll have a message that's right that won't be uh desirable because we never worked on uh that part of it, and so I think that's so important. Uh, that we don't have to compromise uh the accuracy to be engaged and some people look at engagement as compromise. Engagement, hear this engagement is not compromise, it's stewardship. It's I'm being a good steward. Break that down, man. I'm gonna be in a good steward. I don't have to put uh uh sugar on the broccoli, but maybe let's steam it, maybe let's add something to it. It's how it's all in presentation, and so I think that's important, Pastor C that we we we we have, we we we have that, and I and definitely try to encourage all ministers, pastors and people. I I said this one thing, I throw this in there, that when we are a pastor of a church or we are a minister in our home church, we get what's called relationship grace. When you preach as a when I preach in my church as a pastor or our fivefold ministers uh preach in their church, you get relationship grace. I call it a home court advantage because you at home, man. That's just with family, that's my pastor, that's that's my elder, my deacon. But when you go on the road as a guest speaker, you don't get relationship grace. And if you don't have your presentation right, then then people will shut you down, they won't listen to you, not because you weren't accurate, because you didn't have a good presentation. Packaging and everything, you don't want to stake on a trash can lid, you don't want to stake on on paper plates, it's all in presentation and you can't make you not want to receive it. Anything else you want to say in that pastor? But I think this is why this concept is so important that we it's not just accuracy, but we want to make uh your word an impact, and and in order to do that, we have to be aware of our uh delivery.

Pastor Cornelius 20:04

The i'm i'm the only thing I would say, man, what hit what really hit me when you were saying that is that connection part, and I think connection requires incarnation, and what I mean by that, see Jesus ain't just declare the truth, he embedded it. He he he he actually he embodied it. I'm sorry, he embodied it. So preaching a preacher must do the same. We got we got to do the exact same thing. So, meaning the truth got to come in humility when you bring in it your truth, it need to be clothed in humility. So when when I'm preaching, this where I need to connect. When I'm preaching, if it seems like I'm distance, I'm doing it from a distance, uh and all I'm doing is just dealing with the academics of it. The people then become like what you just got through saying, they become disengaged, and it's all about engaging them, not entertaining them, but engaging them. So, in other words, you can be right now, but not reach, not reach. You can be right, but you ain't reaching them. They they become disengaged because you you you you didn't embody that like like the same as Jesus did that that that truth that you was presenting. So when you embody it, what happened is now you end up engaging the people, they become engaged, so it's not just the truth, but it's not just right, but I'm also reaching them. Even if it's tight, even if it's tight, it's right and tight, but yet I reach them, they engage in it because of how I presented it.

Pastor Dowell 21:41

Uh, I think that's that's good, Pastor C. I love that. Let's go, let's go deeper into

Narrative Delivery Versus Principles

Pastor Dowell 21:46

this now. Let's look at we won't maybe do an exhaustive thing, but some delivery methods, so we can help ministers understand and get a frame of uh when we talk about uh understanding your your pulpit delivery. That you can kind of see what you kind of flow in naturally, what you're more inclined to do. So we pray you can kind of be able to look at uh your delivery. We kind of maybe look at maybe two or three predominant styles that we can look at. There's more that we can look at, but what we want to look at today is uh the narrative style and the uh principal center delivery. There's more, like we said, there's expository. That's kind of one you can see if you flow in that, it's usually they stay in the text and they only deal with that text uh in that. Uh, but but some that may flow even more naturally, uh, based on maybe the preacher they was uh raised up under, uh the exposure that they had, the church context, and they're not aware that they're flowing in a style, maybe their own personality. And those two are the narrative centered delivery and the principal center delivery. I think those are the two big ones. If we had to break it up into two categories narrative and uh uh principle centered. So to kind of get a working framework, when we talk about that, what does that mean to you, Pastor C, when we talk about narrative-centered delivery and principle-centered delivery?

Pastor Cornelius 23:14

Okay, first of all, is for me, the narrative is when at that point I call it I preach the story as a story, and so therefore, I get I a lot of character, the character that's in that story. I deal with the conflict, you have movement as it transitions, different things is planning in there, the movement of it, even the tension of it, and then the resolution of it, high-end, what whatever the solution is. So, in other words, to I call it to drive, you know, the drive the sermon. You got the drive. I call that the drive it. You need that characters, the characters that's there. So you deal with that, the conflict is there, the movement of it, the tension of it, and then the answer, the resolution of it. Now, with that being said, if you don't mind, I'm gonna use a quick example. I think I'm better when I can get an example. So if I'm preaching, if I'm preaching, let's say David and Goliath, what happened with David and Goliath? The first thing I'm gonna do, I want to bring the people and walk them down in the congregation into the valley. That's where everything took place in that valley. So I want to bring them. That's the narrative. I'm showing them the narrative. This is what happened in the valley. Then I want I want them to feel the fear that Goliath was putting among the people down there, the other soldiers down there in the valley, and then I want them to hear how Goliath was turning David. So I'm gonna bring that out. So I want to take you down the valley so you can get a feel of everything that's going on in that valley, and then I want them to see that slang shot when it was released. So I covered the characters that was there, the conflict that was there, how it was moving, the tension that was there, but also I feel like I showed them with that with the release of that um slang shot. I showed them also the resolution for you know the solution for it. All of that is within for me, that's that narrative seller type of deliverance.

Pastor Dowell 25:16

I I love I love that. So that's that's this deal with one in time. So that's how you see the narrative, yes, and that and I see it the same way in just some more colorful uh language that I color in in that is the the narrative is when you really you walk people through a story, that's what you just did, right? You walk them through the story. So we're helping the preacher. We want to understand this is the narrative delivery. We when you walk people through a story, as Pastor C said, I'm walking them down in the valley. We're familiar with the story. So you through you're walking them down in the valley, you and and you're walking it with intentionality that you want them to feel the fear, yeah. That David was have you might want them to feel what the people of Israel what they were dealing with, and so I love that you walk them through, you walk them through uh the the story. It's like a movie. See, when a when you so you can start to see different people who have a narrative style, when you hear them preaching, then it's almost like you're watching a movie, they're teaching the Bible. We're talking about from they're teaching the Bible, but it's almost like it's almost like a movie that you that they're they're they're giving you a movie with their words because it's it's it's like it's storytelling, it's storytelling of the scripture. They're telling the scripture, it's storytelling of the scripture. They might also I add in narrative style, they may add in their own stories to help supplement the story. That's good, their own personal story. So that's narrative. When you see a preacher, that's a narrative move. And when we contrast it with uh principle, it's not always anything gonna be 100, but we're breaking it down, we're marismosing it so that we can understand it with dividing it asunder. And so you nobody won't just be all of one, but whenever you bring in a story, personal story, that's narrative. So it's like a it's like a it's like a uh um it feels like a a movie, and so I that's what I see with the narrative as well. It's the storytelling of their own life, uh uh of the text. And so uh I think that is uh that is good now. Now, before we go even uh further in this, now let's look at the principle okay deliver. Uh the principal uh delivered method. When when we talk about those with principle delivered, what does that mean to you in that pastor seat?

Pastor Cornelius 27:39

To me now, now I what I do, I attract and I organize the truth, the timeless, I mean timeless truth from the text. I I att trite and I organize the truth from the text. Now, let me say this about principles. Principles don't change. Principles don't change when I'm doing a narrative that story does move around and change in some things that's happening, but principles are the same, they don't change, whatever the principle might be. So all I'm doing now, I'm organ, I'm organizing, I call it organize the truth from the text. And so let's go back to David and Goliath. Okay, so from David and Goliath, one of the principles I will be using is face your fear. That's the principle. What I what I'm doing is I'm I'm attracting and organizing the truth from it. I'm just not talking and getting them walking in it. Now, this is what I'm putting from it. This is a principle there. Remember, remember your past victories. David remembering his past victories. So I say, fight with what God gave you the slang shot. So I put it this way: the story, because you were talking about moving and walking, the story is the vehicle, the principles become the takeaway. So the narrative part shows it. To me, the principle states it. So to me, the narrative part, I show it to you, but when I'm dealing with the principle, I state what I just got through showing you. Like you say, sometimes they go together, or sometimes uh what the the way I'm presenting is just in that a principal center. So now what I'm doing, I'm actually stating it. When I'm working that narrative, now when I'm doing that, I'm showing it. So that's that's how I look at it.

Pastor Dowell 29:34

I love it, I love it. I love it. So when you're in the narrative mode, you're showing it, you're showing the text, you're showing the scripture from the story, right? When you're in the principle mode, you're stating it. Yes, you're you those timeless principles, like you said with David. I know, like fight with what you have, right? Use your own armor, right? You know, uh, you know, uh uh find your cause. Because they said that's not a cause, find the cause. That's right. Uh-huh. All those things, like I love that. Face your fears, right? Those are the principles, yes. Yeah, uh-huh. I I love that. So though those that's the now, how I how you how I I would say with the principle is if the narrative is the movie, like the movie, just like you said, the principle is a blueprint. You're not telling the movie, it's a blueprint, and it's your blueprint. Got all these rooms, have all these things that can that so you can see it that way on paper, so to speak. And so it's more like a a blueprint, it's pulling out those truths, everything that you said. Both of them are needed, both of them are good, and so that they both work and they work real good together. And so, we want to begin to share with you so you can begin to discover uh your dominant one, and you know, and uh the one that you primarily lead to, but then that way you can learn, and we'll deal with the other how you'll be able to flow in in different and and different genres of both of them, and so that leads me to my uh uh next point. And I say this the narrative highlights the moment, the principal delivery highlights the meaning.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Good.

Pastor Dowell 31:26

The narrative is the the moment of the take, it's the it's this this moment, this picture, this moment, this it's the picture, the moment. But the principle is the meaning, the point, the principle it ain't the picture, it's the it's the principle that what this mean, what did this mean? And so we we I I I think we need both, but that's how you say what does so. If you're looking at it narratively in what's the moment, what's the movie? If you're looking at it principle, what did this mean? You know, what what did this mean? What's the point? And so the next thing, Pastor C, why is it important then that we understand both? If we just flow in one, well, I'm narrative. Well, no, I'm principal, you know. Uh what what why is it important that we understand both narrative and principle, you know, uh, even if people naturally like that naturally, like me, I naturally lean to principle. That's just how I my I'm wired that way. And and I'm why do we need to know about both? Help us in this.

Pastor Cornelius 32:36

I well for I'm necessarily lean towards narrative, okay. That's how I'm built. Okay, number one, die. I know this gonna seem very you know. Um, that's the easy truth. Yeah, we got that. I know it seemed this way, what I'm finna say, but number one, because Jesus did both. Yes, he did. Number one, Jesus did both.

Pastor Dowell 32:57

Yes, he did.

Pastor Cornelius 32:58

Um, prodigal son over in Luke 15. Uh-huh. Narrative. Prodiga's son, narrative. Okay, narrative. He walked through it over in Matthews 7. Okay, he talks about do uh do unto others as you have now. Principle, principle, guys. He did both. So, what narrative do to me, narrative it captures the heart, principle, anchor the mind. Narrative capture your heart, the other one anchor the mind.

Pastor Dowell 33:31

And let me say that let's tag on the let me just I'm gonna get the baton right back to you, okay. In uh Mark 4, so is so to see narrative. Right, there you go. That's right, ferment on the mount, blessed are the poor in spirit. Principle, principle, he dealt with principles. That's right. So, I just wanted to add that in there. You're right. So we see him straight line narrative, yes, and then we see him doing that. Great, great, great.

Pastor Cornelius 33:57

Yeah, and so what happened like again, that narrative catch the heart, and what and what that principle does, it anchors the mind, it anchors that mind. So if you only tell stories, people feel inspired, but might not know what to do. They inspired, but they don't know what to do. So that's if you just do the if you just do the narrative. The people they they they feel inspired, but they don't know what to do. Okay, so what so because of that, I do I want to do both. If you only give just principles now, people may understand, but don't feel compelled to do it.

Pastor Dowell 34:40

See, so it's all that my word I'm gonna turn right back. I see it, they don't feel compelled because you're preaching right with me, they don't feel motivated to do what they're a good word. There's no they're not you didn't motivate, you didn't impact them enough to want to do what you said to do what you said, but it was a good story, it was a good story.

Pastor Cornelius 35:01

I like the story, it was accurate, like you said, but I didn't leave. I I did not leave there un you know, not I understood it, but but I I I gotta understand it, but the truth be told, it didn't motivate me, like you said. I compel me to take that and work run with it.

Pastor Dowell 35:20

Because that's if you just give principles, principle. If you just give principle, you give principle, they understand what to do, but they don't never necessarily want to do it. That there you go. If you just give stories, then they might they they they'll they they want to do something, they really don't know what to do, but they'll know what to do.

Pastor Cornelius 35:36

So that's why I believe we ought to do two outside of Jesus did both. I think this is why we ought to do too. So I think the strongest the the the strongest preaching they marriage both of them, they marry both of them together. You marry you both of them together. Now you make the greater empire.

Pastor Dowell 35:57

I love that. I and I think it might be percentage, depending how you lean, and you look at it, it might be 80 narrative, 20, 70, 30, might not be 50, 50, but it's that it won't just be it at dimension because that way it works good. I love I I love that. I think it's important, Bastard C that we know both and flow in both, even though we naturally and understand it so we can have intentionality so we can do things in on intention and not accidental. So if you choose to realize that, hey, in this message, in this sermon, I think the best approach is that I'm gonna stick primarily with a narrative flow because I think this is gonna work. I'm gonna put in some principle, but I I really feel narrative, or other words, you might feel for this particular assignment, for this particular method, now I'm gonna flow more with principle. I'm gonna put in some narrative, but I'm here. See, now you you could become you become um skillful in your assignments and sensitive so that you you're not just in a box because some assignments, some messages, some spaces, some places may cause for you to yield more to another. And when you have this in your tool bag, you can use it. And then within the sermon, Pastor C, there's certain places when you want to bring out or teach, or you feel the Holy Spirit wants people to get a certain thing within the message, you'll begin to realize some this need to be done more through the narrative. I need to tell the story. This needs to be more through the principle. And I, if we don't know this, we can't move with that intentionality. And I think this is why we need to uh break this down.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

I like that.

Pastor Dowell 37:49

People learn in different ways, Pastor C.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

That's true.

Pastor Dowell 37:52

I learned this as a teacher. People learn in different ways, so everybody you you'll be able to hit people in different ways, different learning styles, you know, like what people like with some people learn visually, and so when you're telling the story, they get the visual. Other people they learn auditorily. It's like they they just can listen and learn. Other people, they're hands-on, they learn kinesthetically, when they can interact with the truth, with even in school, they like the kid got to do something. Well, when you flow both of them, when you're telling the story, you they they see it. You you just they seen it with their mind when you the preaching that the principle they're hearing, and when you're doing and now when you're having all the object lessons and different things, now you add all of it. So I think that that helps both. And like you said, Jesus did both, and I think development happens when we when preachers uh what we learn to to stretch ourselves even beyond our strength.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Ah, that's good.

Pastor Dowell 39:00

We begin to stretch ourselves beyond our strength, and so when we do that, I think that helps us to be more impactful. Let's let's let's go deeper in this as we'll we're learning now.

What Narrative Preaching Looks Like

Pastor Dowell 39:13

Uh, about we're seeing that's the narrative. We see what narrative, movie, blueprint, touching the heart, uh, like you said, down to the hand that to get the transformation. I love that what you said, Pastor C. That's that's really good. But then now let's look at more of what it looks like. Let's go further. Let's start with the narrative again. What does narrative preaching? We say it's the movie, okay? But we want to break it down more. What does it look like in the pulpit when a person is narrative uh preaching? And we're not saying that's the only thing, but when they're bringing, I like it this way, that dimension, that flavor, that anointing, that delivery. What does that look like in the pulpit?

Pastor Cornelius 39:52

First of all, I think that for me, then the preacher, the preacher respects the tense of the text, the tenses of that text, and then what happened for the congregation, they feel the weight before we get to the solution.

Pastor Dowell 40:08

What do you mean? Let me help me help me. When you say tense, what do you mean by that, Pastor? See, they they respect the tense of the text. What's that?

Pastor Cornelius 40:15

Well, what what what I mean is the the the the once again, because when you think of narrative, you say the movie, you talk about the movement of it, so you get in there and you feel the emotions of it. You you you you you you get in there and you feel the mood of it, it you know, you you actually get in character there where you can feel feel really what it is in the text. So I call that representing the tents of the tense of the text, so that becomes where I get in character there in the text. I need to feel this. What this feel like what what's really going on here? You follow what I'm saying? So that's what I'm doing, that narrative thing, and so now the congregation, because I feel it, I'm I'm relaying that that now the congregation can feel the weight of it before the sol before before once again the before we get to the end point, uh, are the answer, the solution, the resolution. Before we get to that resolution, that the inner they feeling that the weight of it because the preacher respects the tense of it. I love that until now.

Pastor Dowell 41:37

I love that. I love that you respect the tense, the mood, yes, of the text. That's what it looked like. Good. Anything else? But that's what it I love that passive.

Pastor Cornelius 41:47

That is yeah, it it does, and I think that then the preacher don't hurry up and rush, you don't you you don't you got to know how to do it when you feel it when you respect the tense of it, you don't rush to the shop moment. That shot, you don't rush to the shop moment. Some preachers seem to rush to that shop moment. We're trying to get a shot out of you, but you don't rush to that, but I call it shop moment, you know what I'm saying? So you don't rush to that. So if you don't mind, I'm gonna use example because I just preached it mark five, you know, with with Jarish daughter. So if you rush just to rise up, daughter, when Jesus got there, we so then you miss the interruption that took place on the way there. You miss the waiting that was there. You you so so so you miss you miss that. You you you miss the announcement that that daughter is dead. You miss all that. If you just rush to rise up, so that's why you you got to respect the tents of it. Let the people I call it sit in it, Dom. Let the people sit in the moment. Take the time to let the people sit in the moment. Okay, once again, Jesus did it. I think one example for me is Luke. Luke 10, where over in Luke 10, when he did when he do the Good Samaritan. He unfolds that slowly. And he brings in the different people that came by, and and at the end, he finally let you know who stopped. The whole time you're trying to figure out who's gonna be the one to stop, who's really the neighbor? Who's really the neighbor? Because he didn't just run to it, he slowly walked you through it, and we sat on it to the point where we couldn't wait to see who was the neighbor. So he grabbed our attention, kept us, and then. Course, you know, gave the principal at the end there. Who really is my neighbor?

Pastor Dowell 44:04

See, and that's both again. Yeah, you can see how he did both.

Pastor Cornelius 44:08

Yes. So I feel like since you use that term, move it out. So when I think of the narrative, and you're saying what that looked like, I guess I'm saying narrative preaching brings the people to the scene, it brings the congregation to the scene. You call the movie, so it brings them the listener into the scene. That congregation, they actually get into the scene. You don't just tell them what happened, you let them experience it. Wonderful. It's something you always say, see, it ain't nothing like being there. You see what I'm saying? You see, if it's when you got you know how we say you have to be got to be in the room. So what I like to do is put them in the room of my text. I want to put them in the room in the text. And if I put them in the room in the text and they experience it, now when I get to the end of that thing where I'm trying to get them to, because they don't set on it, they can receive easier where I was trying to get them to.

Pastor Dowell 45:09

Wonderful. So I mean, I love the imagery, respect in the tents, bring them in the room. I I I said that what it looked like in the pulpit. I I concur with all of that. I did all of that what you said, Pastor C. It is walking them through the scenes, through the characters. Let me ask more length, like you said, through the characters. So you got to identify the characters that might not be on the they might not. That's it, they might not be primary, but then there's some secondary when you take time to walk slowly, you'll pick up other characters, and you'll you'll begin to say, you know what? I we we talk about you know, G's character. I want to talk about the one that that carried it. I want to talk about we talk about thief. I want to talk about this. You'll pull out other characters that really never get talked about, and that act nuances. Why? Because you respecting the tents, but then the characters that sometimes some primary characters. So you're now in the narrative, you're a movie, you're you're saying you're showing where you want to show the camera at. That's what is now what you want to focus in. There's a whole lot going on. Imagine if you was at a game, you was filming it. You can look you look at the coaches, the crowd, the people in the press box during the film, the cheerleaders, the the sideline coaches, the person that just missed the field goal. You're the camera, and so now when you you you're filtering through that and you're walking, and at that see, that's in your discovery. When you decide what you're gonna deal with, then in your delivery, that's what you're gonna bring them through, right? Character, the the the emotions, like that. It feels like you're painting the scene with your work, you're painting it, you're painting it, you're drawing the picture with your word, you're describing the moments, like when David, when he when he went, he was going, you know, to bring cheese and crackers. He was going just to that, man. They was like scared, it was tense, man. They didn't want him to be there. Like you, you know, you're just trying to see what's going on. They just get back out of here. So you you gotta describe it, and then and like you said, man, I love that you let people feel the text. This the thing, you got to feel it before they can feel it.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

That's correct.

Pastor Dowell 47:27

That's why you gotta you gotta feel it before you feed it. Feel it, then you can feed it better. Many times you can't feed people well because you haven't felt the text, just oh, you got and like you said, you gotta sit in. So that's what the narrative looks like. When you say get in the character, I love that because the preacher, you can see great preachers that do this, they literally get in the character. That's a narrative preacher. When that preacher becomes the woman with the issue of blood, what do you mean? He's on the floor, he's in the character, he's got his eyes closed and he's feeling Jesus. I can't see, and he's he's teaching. I hear him, I don't see him, I hear him. See, he's now he's he he putting you on the scene, and so it that's when they get in the character, they get in the the flow. He's a man laid, you know, that's in the character. Uh, in that so uh I love that, and it helped the congregation uh experience scripture, not just hear it.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

Yeah, yeah.

Pastor Dowell 48:34

See, nothing like an experience pass see. You can hear about it, but you experience it. That's the art of a good preacher that's near. They they feel like, man, you've been there. Man, like like you preached recently for us at the time in this podcast, uh, message you had preached with man. I heard the story Jair Iris, you know, going and you know, his daughter. I heard that story, preached some of it, but after you preached it, it's like man, I I never see the story again. But why? Because the way you told the story, you know. You know, VIP J Iris, VIP that humbled himself. See, because people go past that part. We never took part, we never shined that part on the scene because we get to his daughter, and how there was a scene in a scene, yeah, a crowd in a crowd, and a crowd. See, all of that. Uh uh, but I just say, but it what it do now. You experienced it and it and it and it does something, and so I I love that. And so I think we have to feed before we feed. So that's that's narrative, that's what the narrative looks like. So when we're narrative, we're we're respecting it, we're we're telling that story, we're we're dealing with it, all within lines as well of our our sermon title, our sermon message, but that's that element intertwined in there. So now you can see that that's what narrative, and now again, what the narrative why this is important, narrative grabs the heart of people. There you go. Narrative, like a movie, it wants people to watch. Like everybody likes a good story, Pastor C. Yeah, everybody like a good story, man. I mean, somebody said me tell you, let me tell you stories. I okay, let me. That was once upon a time, and it and what it draw, see, that's it, it'll help engage you, it'll it'll draw you in. But then, like you're saying with the principle, you want once you draw them in, if you don't have no no principles, nothing to do, and still not effective, or uh they they don't they don't know where to go. So let's let's let's go a little bit different in

What Principle Preaching Looks Like

Pastor Dowell 50:39

it. So we'll uh go a little a little a little further because well they'll understand some of the uh the the new no answers of it. The principal sense it now because I look at the narrative. If you draw the narrative, if you don't balance it off with the principal, you can draw people in and they don't know where they're going. True, because they don't know where where we're going. Or when they get there, they don't know they got there. Because you didn't bring out what you said. Let's go deeper now. One of the things you said about principle, let's look at what it looked like. The principle led teaching, one of the things you brought out earlier, you talked about timeless truths. So let's look at that. What does that look like in the pulpit, and how does it serve uh the listeners? One thing I just said, you're giving them that timeless truth, so now they know what to do, right?

Pastor Cornelius 51:38

So to me, it serves them because you give them structure, structure, you give them clarity, it's clear, and I think this part here for me, Dow, too. Lastly, I would say now you put them in a position to memorize memorization that to me that plays a role when I'm dealing principle. So, like I what I use a lot for me when I'm dealing with principal is uh uh acronym spelling out something, make it easy for them to remember. Uh three three movements, giving them just three movements or three points. We would say, uh uh uh four keys, all those type of things. There that's what it looked like. It looked like that.

Pastor Dowell 52:30

That's what acronyms of yeah, acronyms love. That's what when a preacher said they use love, or they say, like, you know, fire, you know, it those are principal uh methods and movements, right? Four keys.

Pastor Cornelius 52:44

Okay, so from Joshua one, I'm I'm working something now, so that's why I use that from Joshua one. Be strong, be courageous, be obedient, be mindful of the word. I just gave a bunch of B's, B E's. You can be these the B's from Joshua, yeah. The B's from Joshua. Okay, so principles to me when you look at the principal uh center preaching, and you ask the other question, but how does it serve them? Now this helped note takers. Ones is gonna take note. This helped the note takers. This provides hammer to memorize, stuff to memorize. I'm putting out stuff that you can memorize because it's just not a movie, it's just not a story, but it's principles, and I think it it it aids in discipleship because I'm giving you principles things that that's more appliable, not just a story, and it's teaching over and over. I'm repeating it, I'm repeating it over and over. And the primary place I would say what Jesus did with the uh in Matthew 5 Beatitudes. This should be your attitude, and you know where I learned that from. This should be your attitude, so the beatitudes, so I think like that is short principles, principles you can easily remember, and people always remember structure, man. A building well put together, people remember that. A house, the structure is well put together, and people remember that, or I remember how that room was. That's our principles, like what you shared earlier. So now that's what that looked like. I don't know whether I made that simple enough or not.

Pastor Dowell 54:44

Oh no, man, I I love it, and I and I I I concur with it as well, exactly what you were saying, because one word I use a couple things, it helps it to stick. Both of them do, stories help stick, but then the principle helps in retention of the the the uh the timeless truths, yeah. So when you work them together, now it becomes masterful because that we remember story, yeah. And then also not only story, but like you said, when you like our bishop taught, the be attitude, let this be your attitude. See, putting that that that that that that principle out, let it be your attitude, and then the way you bring it together in a crafty way, it sticks, and so that it that it it it sticks that way. So another thing in that when you say handles, I love that because we you you you get handles for a baby. A baby has a handle so they can grab the cup. Baby got that. See if you have a baby and you have a bottle of water, a baby can't they they can't they they they can't flow with things, they need the handle so they can grip it. Why? So then they can they can do it, and many times the baby cup, when we had gave they had handles, you look at that handle, it got handled on how many sides, two sides, yeah. Don't it two sides? Why yeah? So he can grab it and hold it the sippy cup. That's good, man. When you put principles, yeah, cheese, points, uh uh acoustic in my early days of ministry. I thought that was just preachers being cute, and I like I don't have to be you know, rhyming, uh alliteration. I just thought that was being cute. Not that I was against it, I didn't see the value of it because it's like I ain't gotta be good. I'm just teaching, we're gonna teach them about faith, you know. That we're gonna teach them that difference between faith and and uh foolishness, the difference between faith and mental ascent, you know what I mean? Because it's faith not in your heart but in your head. So I'm excited about teaching them faith versus mental ascent. I mean I'm caught up in the res revelation, but not the power of presentation, presentation for preservation, why retention we learn in school I before e except after C. That's right, why? Because you you you learned it, kids learn A, B, C, D, E. They sung all it's ways to help in retention, and so those principles, when you align them with with new uh mnemonics in a word, they ain't just being cute, it helps people remember so they can remember and do it, and so I love that pasty. That's where the principle comes in. So it helps with retention, it helps them uh organize it, it helps them so they can uh apply it. You're able to put those uh handles on it, man. And I I love that, and that's that's so important because if people don't if people don't have that, they won't be able to keep it, and so that's what principle like me. It looked like uh sometimes it might look what people might everybody don't use, but it's powerpoints. It it it's it's uh it's definitions, uh defining what words mean, the etymology of a word, what the root word, what this word is uh this is phillet love, it's philaleo, it's agape, it's all see now. You you're you're breaking down the principles of the word, yeah. See, that's what that doesn't have nothing to do with the story, not a narrative, but it's in that all that to pull out principles of uh of agape love, and so it's it's it's finding the Greek, it's the Hebrew because without uh, but if you don't have the pictures from the story, it can seem clinical, yeah, yeah. See, we looked at the narrative. If you have the narrative, if you don't have the principles, then they don't know what to do, they don't know where we're going. They they they can have a heart, but like you said, don't have what you said, like the uh the anchor in the mind, right? Right, that's right. But if you have the principle without the story, then now you're driving somewhere people don't want to go. You're feeding something that you never won their heart. That you never won that, you never won their heart. It feels it can feel too academic.

SPEAKER_03 59:45

Yeah, that's what I'm saying earlier. That's correct.

Pastor Dowell 59:47

It can feel academic, it can feel like school, and a lot of people despise school, so it might not feel spiritual, it can feel heady, and and in circles if a message seems like it's just head knowledge and not from the oldest spirit, it could be from the whole spirit. But if all you're doing is principles and principles and principle, no, it it could it could almost appear to sometimes like spirit because it seemed like it's all knowledge in the mind, and so it why because there's the reason is because there's no feeling in it, there's no there's no you don't you ain't feeling you ain't you you you you're you're telling us, yeah, you're preaching the Bible, you're giving these principles and all these points and all these antecedents, all these different things and contrast, but there's no no no feeling in it. Because you hadn't said in it, you because you don't feel it, because it's might all be in your head, yeah. And so that's why we need that that that air and and the we we need, I think that's why we need both, Pastor C. We need we need both. Well, what you just say in that. I think that's why it needs to be uh uh a both, and you you did it just even as we were dealing with you. So let me give give you an example of it, see right

Illustrations And Stories That Stick

Pastor Dowell 1:01:08

in that. That's how you we're we're doing we're teaching principles now, right? But all even throughout why we're we're we're giving out these the telling the story to help bring it out, and we're using what we're doing, we're using illustrations to help bring it all out. So let's add that that moment, let's talk about that because they kind of go with the narrative teaching, yeah, and they go with the principal teaching having illustrations. So uh what let's talk about the the purpose and the effectiveness of illustrations as we get ready to uh uh approach our landing on this podcast. Okay, what is the purpose of illustrations and preaching? And let's talk about uh what make illustrations uh effective because I think they they serve in our delivery, whether it's narrative or is it principle, illustrations help serve in both.

Pastor Cornelius 1:02:07

That's correct. I number one illustration, they be a bridge between the text and life. They do they build a bridge, bridge between the text and life. Illustration does that. I got the text here, I put a bridge there. Illustration that brings that to life.

Pastor Dowell 1:02:28

Let me grab, don't, don't lose your thought. I'm gonna grab the baton. Okay, so we just so I don't have to double back. I think it's what I see. That is that bridge is from then, as you were talking about there now. Uh-huh. See, a good preacher is it's not knowing what happened then historically. See, that's interpretation historically, but if people don't know how that that's what happened in Jerusalem in in 20 BC, it's good now. I'm in 2025-26. I know you're talking about that, and you telling me this is what they did. I got it. That was a sheep gate, and that was the dongate, and that was all that, but I'm here. The bridge so that people can understand how those things connect is the illustration. Sometime you're saying, right?

Pastor Cornelius 1:03:18

Right. So, all you're saying too is that it clarifies the truth, not distract from it, it keeps the truth. All I do is I just I clarifies it when I use illustrations. That's the illustrations do. Illustration is shorter than the point. That's how it helped. Also, it's shorter than the point. You got the point, but the illustration is shorter than the point, but it makes the point. I love it. And I think illustration also it serves the scripture, not your personality, but it serves the scripture. Sometimes we we kind of call our personality. I can't do that, but no, a illustration, it actually serves that scripture, it serves it. It helps that scripture, not the truth of it now, the equis of it, it serves it in where you'll make it, you're able to put it out there clearer now. I love that. See, and what else they do it. I call I say it reinforce, it reinforces the central ideal that you have. A illustration does that, and that's it.

Pastor Dowell 1:04:31

That's powerful, though. See, you said help clear without clarity, then people can't apply the truth that you're telling them.

Pastor Cornelius 1:04:41

That's it, it never gets to their hands. What we talked about understand, right? Because they didn't understand it. So that's what that illustration goes, that's what that illustration is gonna do.

Pastor Dowell 1:04:51

See, and that's like you said the chalkboard. If you if even though we tell you this, if you don't understand it, you're gonna fail the test, you're not gonna do your homework while you didn't get so they like, let me give you another understanding. If he if somebody gave you you know five hamburgers, you went to you went to you went to Brahms, yeah. Everybody had a bag of burgers, and then like, yeah, how many burgers been that five? Okay, what if you had to give your little brother one big one? How many you got left? Oh, I got three. See, you got it. Oh, that's how it means that's what it means. So just instead of thinking a bag of burgers, it's a bag of seven burgers now, and you're gonna take out oh that's it, just taking them out now. The child got it, yes, because see what the illustration does it make abstract truth visible. See, that was abstract to the child. Now that you told him it's a bag of burgers, or like you have, you know, you have how many, which what's your favorite kind of? I like I like French fries. You have McDonald's fries. What if you had 10 fries in there? You had to get, oh man, I got eight fries, you know. So they understand that. And so it helped it helped uh abstract through sanctification. Man, people don't men do that. What's Sanctification, you know, sanctification, redemption, reconciliation. You know, when we start bringing biblical terms like that, people might not understand all that, you know. But it helps some when we you familiar as a preacher, but they're not. And so illustrations help them to understand understand those those truths. I like to put this way when people can visualize the truth, they can crystallize the truth. See, if you can't visualize it, it's not crystallized. See, something that's crit not crystallized, Pastor C, you can't grab it, you can't grab smoke. You can't grab water like it goes through. It's if it's not crystallized. So when you crystallize it, when you visualize it, now I can that illustration help them say I can see it now.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

That's good.

Pastor Dowell 1:06:56

See, it helps believers learn and truly get it. Because if you if you don't understand, you can't stand. You see, what illustration does if you don't understand, you can't stand. You don't understand warfare and all of that, you can't stand. So, what an illustration does, it says this that if you understand that, those bags of burgers, then you can understand this.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:21

That's good.

Pastor Dowell 1:07:22

That's what a parable was.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

That's good. That's right.

Pastor Dowell 1:07:24

He threw down para bole P A R A B O L E. Para, we get parallel from lines, run through infinity, they'll never cross. Boley, throw down. He threw down a natural illustration besides a spiritual concept. Understand the spirit, this natural illustration. Now you understand. Oh, so and so the seed. Oh, I got it. One fell on Stony, Stony. I understand how seed work. The birds came and got it. It was too shallow, it didn't get enough water. It got burnt by the sun. Oh, now you got it. And the word is the seed of God. Oh, so that's why warfare coming when I get good preaching. That's why warfare, that's why some folk make it and some don't. They never got they was too shallow. Oh, I got it now. I understand the whole warfare. I got it. Why? Because you understand seed, time, and harvest. So he gave the parable, then he came back and gave the principles. When he called his disciple, he did both.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:27

That's right.

Pastor Dowell 1:08:28

And so it so when we're preaching, sometimes people don't get it. That's what the illustration helped them get it. And this we gotta understand as preaching sometime, Pastor C. You may have it, but the people don't. You you do to this, you've been in this 10, 15, 20, 30. Man, they some folk don't even know Bible stories. It's true. So, how long are they gonna understand the fifth dimension of faith? Prophetic impart. You talk, oh, activation, prophetic manifestation, activation. You know, there's a there's a there's a clarion call in here, a clarion. God, God is calling a clarion call. It's a clarion, clarion call. Me, not the clarion call, man. There's a spirit of impartation. Oh okay. What what does that what's the impartation? God is about to activate, okay. So uh when you give an illustration, oh oh, like my ATM card that I if I don't never get it activated, I can't use it. So when I call it activate, now I can use it. That's what's gonna happen when you come to the altar and we lay hands on you. Gonna act. See, now people can get it because you understand that it helps with retention and all that. So uh um before we move to X, what makes illustrations effective?

Pastor Cornelius 1:09:54

Um I think what makes it effective, it makes the scripture like you just got through saying our different principles understandable and unforgettable. That unforgettable, but uh oh yeah, that that's what good illustration now bad illustration makes people remember the story but miss the scripture, but a good illustration, what it does it makes that scripture uh uh that that that scripture unforgettable.

Pastor Dowell 1:10:38

Oh yeah, huh? I saw you do it. The first shall be last, last be first. I remember you teaching the message. He had everybody get in line, and you put people in the line, and the person that was at the end of the line, they didn't get it, but then you said in the way God had a way a turn thing, then you told them to turn around, and now they was at the front, right? You do you you it it you memory, you remember it, it impacts you.

Pastor Cornelius 1:11:01

It does, it really does. So I think that's that's the effect, but once again, that's why I gave the example of a bad one, is where when people remember that story, but they forget what scripture was tied with it. So I want to make sure, like how you just explained it that I kept that tied there, that the scripture part is tied there, so it is a good illustration, not just the illustration, and it don't went bad because people can remember. I said the story, I used it.

Pastor Dowell 1:11:30

You don't know what the point of it, what what was they have no biblical basis?

Pastor Cornelius 1:11:34

It's I use one now that Bishop taught. I'm gonna show you the empire. As me and you know, you know, I believe Bishop is going on to be the Lord, but I still can remember I use it a lot. If I had mustard sitting right here on this table right now, a mustard bottle yellow, and I had usually put ketchup, it's red, both of them sitting in here. I squeeze the ketchup, I squeezed the mustard, and my question is what's gonna come out? What's gonna come out? Whatever I put in it, it might look like this on the outside, but we don't know what's in it till the squeeze is on. Whatever's on you, whatever's in you when the squeeze is on, that's what comes out. Illustration, bishop you the impact in my life. I won't forget that. See, yeah, it's what's in me. When does it really come out when the squeeze is on?

Pastor Dowell 1:12:28

See, and see that's what good illustrations do, they stick.

Pastor Cornelius 1:12:32

They stick.

Pastor Dowell 1:12:33

I remember some people I didn't even know I almost about not forgot the illustration. Well, I did illustration one of our leads was saying how they was new to the church that they never forgot that the illustration, and you know, won't get an illustration, but just the point, it was like it impacted them that much. There you go, there you go. It make the impact. This one, I think we won't we'll have to do another podcast to deal with it, but just in a nutshell, to have effective illustrations, I just think two key words I can just summon up timing, like they said with a comedian, whatever the timing, timing, and presentation. It's not just the illustration, it's the presentation, how you present the illustration, and in order to be effective with the presentation. I say this, unless you are truly gifted, seasoned, or just in the Holy Spirit flow, you need to prepare for them and plan them. Sometimes people who are gifted and seasoned, they don't have to, they've done it so many times, or they're in the Holy Spirit flow. They're not seasoned, they're not gifted, but the Holy Spirit gave it to them on the moment. I've had it. He give it to me on the moment, and just do it. I just don't illustrate. I didn't think about doing illustration with a sippy cup today. That example, I didn't do I didn't prepare, but I said it. There's been some things I've been teaching the message, and so I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit, that's the Holy Spirit. Then some people are seasoned and trained in doing it, but the norm is preachers to have effective illustration, you need to prepare for them, plan for them, and even practice them. What do you mean? Have the elements for your illustration, have them on hand. If you it would have gone better since you're saying, Oh, I I wish I had I had this. I had to get let's say if you if I if I had that and I know one day I want to do the ketchup thing and that, if I prepare for it, then I literally have a ketchup, I have my bottle, then I have in the in one instead of in the mustard, I put ketchup I put I put ketchup in there, and I have one and says, see this mustard. Now what did they look the same? But one, why something else got in and it got contaminated? Now I have more impact than what I got to tell them, imagine. See, you didn't prepare, or I'm stumbling. Presentation. It's like I I it didn't flow right because I wasn't prepared. I I was stuttering, I was stumbling. Well, such and such, he said he don't prepare, he's he's been in the game a while. She don't go by when they cook, they don't measure stuff, they just do she's been cooking for a long time. You can't get away without measuring, you can't get away without time. They can just feel it. You can't feel it. You need measuring sticks, you need you need order. So have a good illustration. Prepare for them, plan for them, practice them, and make sure you're cute, you're sure what the point you want to make. Because sometimes the illustration might not go with your point. When I'm working through an illustration, sometimes I gotta realize, okay, what is the like if I'm using the I'm using the I'm using the lock and the keys, I might the people, are they the lock? Or the people the keys is the Holy Spirit gonna be the unlock or the devil, whatever. So now I gotta clear my mind what's my emphasis when I give it, who's what? Just this I'm I'm clear on you are the lock. And the Holy Spirit is the key, or no, no, people are locked up. You the key that God gonna use, just on how I'm gonna use it. You the key, people been locked up all of their life. See this lock in my hand, people been locked up all of the day, but you are the key, and when you connect with them, God is gonna open up. That's why He's trying to isolate you. You are you are the key. It's good, but sometimes it's like no, you've been locked up, and and and and and when we have this altar call, God's gonna what say? Um, so but if I didn't think through it, see, I can fumble the moment, right? And I and I said it, then but then this who babe that was good illustration, but who was the lock in the key? That's ah, see, because I didn't prepare it, didn't plan it. I wasn't prepared for it. So that's what makes good illustrations that you can and some the Holy Spirit do it, but if you can play prepare for them, and then they can land uh the right way. What would you say with this in stories? Then see before we close. This hit story. What makes an effective story and what role do they play in the preaching? The story of personal stories, personal stories, personal stories. What role do they play in effective pulpit ministry? Like you know, got illustration. What role do personal stories play? How can they be effective as well? What makes it effective?

Pastor Cornelius 1:17:46

Effective stories. One of the first things I think what what personal stories do to me it it humanize the truth, it humanize the truth, man. Yeah, that's what it ends up doing. When I when I give one of my one of my stories, uh, if I give a person, it actually it brain humanizes it. So now it grabs somebody's attention because it's real, it don't seem like it's way off. It humanizes it, it they can feel it, it's for real.

Pastor Dowell 1:18:16

Huh. I can't see I can't relate to it.

Pastor Cornelius 1:18:23

Exactly, exactly. So that that's what that's what happens there, and I think it also engaged the imagination. Because I think while people there, the imagination need to be engaged. Wow. Right? Remember Nathan and David? Remember Nathan confronted David about that story, and David judged that man that was in the story, not realizing it was him. But that story got him. That's what he did. I love that. So yeah, so I think that that's what happened, and I think I think that's how that's how they're effective in the pulpit. It it keeps things also down. I think a story helps make things clear. It's honest, and it also connects it, it usually connect emotions because it's it could connect to whatever emotions in the midst of it when it's a story. Yeah, I you know, I just I I just shared a story yesterday because I had a women group during this time of this um time and and I shared with them about um each day for so many years. However, old you is that's how many, that's how many new. Um, I was teaching them on embracing your now, embracing who you is right now, embracing your uniqueness and who you are. And so, in that I share with them how have it, whatever your age is, if you're 59, if you 89, 81, embrace that, ladies. Don't don't don't don't be ashamed of your age. I say, uh, embrace it. And then I gave the story about my mom. I began to share with them, you know, told them, you know, a couple days from now, uh, that helped me to embrace who I am, uh, embrace the day I have my age, embrace it that I'm still here is basically the point. And in sharing the story, I shared that you know, two days from now, she is the day she left here. So that took them there because everybody in the room there knew that. So I brought them to that date, and that story took them there, and I felt like it made them human eyes. They felt that oh man, from that, I appreciate that I'm 81, I appreciate that I'm 75, I appreciate that even that I'm 50, because I'm still here. So the story, the story engaged their imagination, it brought them, it brought them, it brought them there.

Pastor Dowell 1:21:12

So that's what I think with with I I think what the story does it help people not, it helped it helped the congregate, whatever you're preaching, it helped them to understand, and also to help your point land. Woo! I like how you put that understanding and land. See, because you it helped it helped whatever you're trying to say, it helped it land, it needs somewhere to land, and when it lands, and a story can land it. So sometimes you can be teaching and preaching truths, and the story sometimes, why? Because it could be you got it, you prayed, you was praying. The Holy Spirit opened your eyes. They ain't been praying and thinking about you know the the what you got over in Deuteronomy, but that story helped it why because you ain't got that much time to give all the background that caused you to get it, yeah. But a story helped it land, and it can land it quickly. That's good so it can help you land it now. So it helped now understand, but it helped land the point. I love that. I love the humanize humanize because now it's common, now they can get it. They feel like this for me because you got a common story, they can because people see themselves in the story. So that I what make a I like stories stick too. I remember stories you told, stories stick. People engage everybody, love the good story, you know. People become a part of it, but I think again to be effective story, I think it's all in presentation.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:45

Oh, yeah, you gotta it's how you present it.

Pastor Dowell 1:22:47

You can mess up a good story, it's true. Like I said, they messed up a good meal. You messed it up because you didn't present it right.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:53

It's good, you know.

Pastor Dowell 1:22:55

So you gotta be it's like somebody said, like a good joke. You messed that joke up while it's how you presented it, it's in time, it's in timing, yeah. It's it's it's in the timing, the pregnant pauses, the inflection of the voice, the pregnant. So it's just not pregnant pauses, yeah. Pregnant pauses. What that looks like, man. A pregnant pauses, break that down. I love it. I'm doing it now. You you I got intentionally waiting. I got it. I got it. When you wait and and that and you wait for impact, that's what it looked like right there. When you wait, wait, wait, when people remember the old saying people say a while back, wait on it. Now I give you the five. That's the pregnant pause. It's it's a pause, it's pregnant, it's full of life, and the life comes out when you wait. Because if you don't wait and you get too soon, you lose the moment. That pause your pause wasn't pregnant, so you missed you. Aborted the moment because you were too fast with it. So it's all in how you tell the story, it's the human, it's all let me interrupt you for a minute, man.

Pastor Cornelius 1:24:11

Hold your train of thought, man. I mean, no capping here. Hearing that push something in me that's deeper than just a story. All of a sudden, what I hear when you said pregnant pause, and the way you just explained that, I heard a whole message there full of principles. Whoa, whoa, whoa, with principles, and and all you would just you use just the term pregnant pause, a dream, a vision, it's pregnant, but he just got it on pause, and you got to trust the timing of it. I you say you'll miss the moment, you'll miss the moment. So, how often do we miss moments because we won't pause? We pregnant, just pause. You still pregnant, just pause. It's a pregnant pause. All right, man.

Pastor Dowell 1:25:10

No, that's good. And if I because I heard you preach the message, I've never seen it that way. I if if I if I had to preach the pregnant pause, I said that's that's that's the story of J Iris. Yeah, he he he went to Jesus, he had a he had a he had he had something that he needed to be delivered, his daughter needed to be healed. He he was pregnant with faith, he was pregnant with healing, we're pregnant with a miracle. He went to Jesus and Jesus on the way, but in the middle of that, Jesus got stuck in a crowd talking to a woman that was touching the hem of his garment. He had a pregnant pause, but he was willing to wait. He didn't walk away. He said, Man, forget it, man. She trouble not the master now. She did he was willing to wait, he was willing to watch, he was willing to sit back and watch somebody else get blessed. He was willing to wait, he was willing to watch, and then he was willing to keep on walking. That's good, and that's how he got his win. Yeah, that's good. It was a pregnant, it's a it's a pregnant pause, but yeah, yeah, see, that's that's all that's all in there. Yeah, and so that and what a good story does too, and illustration it adds variety to your message. See, if you have a meal, nobody just wants a steak and just a steak. But what's your meal? Man, this is this is a uh what they call it, A5 steak. This is a $120 steak. It's like good. What else with it? It's just the steak. The steak is good all by itself. Like I, you know, I I it's a big steak though. You ain't gonna be able to get full off of it. I know, I want some potatoes with it or something. You got a salad? Can I get some you know, some zucchini or squash? I don't why because I need something to I need variety. Can I get some soda, a drink, tea, lemonade? Love it, all of that add and add dimensions so your message won't just be flatline. I love it. If you just have if you just have stories, stories, stories, or teaching, teaching, teaching, no, no, I mean narrative story, or principle, principle, principle, and you don't have no your own stories, your own illustrations, or stuff. You have no variety in it, it just be almost flatline. They call that in speech. It's like you don't have no inflection, no that it's like because it can dole your ears, come it become white noise. Yes, not that it's not good because it's not it has nothing, no, no doom doom doom, like in the movies, like they have different things to keep you engaged, all of that adds and it it breaks up the monotony of it. Now we can get back, it breaks it up. So those are why those are important. I said, See, I've enjoyed this man podcast as we get ready to land this. Any final thoughts or uh encouragements that you could help we can maybe share with the uh the ministers and preachers that are watching how they can uh maybe improve in these areas of narrative, illustrations, principle-centered, you know, in their delivery, maybe improve and and and know more. What what would you say uh that maybe that might uh help them grow in these areas in their delivery area?

How To Grow Your Delivery

Pastor Cornelius 1:28:29

I I I would first of all I would say, man, study study Jesus' sermons, and I think that'll help you know read the gospels and and not not not just doing devotional time, but I mean actually break them down and I would say ask the questions because it's the key about asking the right question. When did he tell a story? With when did he give a direct like command in the midst of it? You know, when when when do you ask a question? So I would say study Jesus' story. Then I would say practice both both of them, the narrative and the principals, practice them from every text. So when you preach in the sermon, you ask the question, what's the story movement? You know, what what what what's there? What's the timeless truth? You know, what what what's the clear takeaway I'm trying to get out of this? And so I would say that, and then I would say, because I've been using this lately, man, it's been a blessing for me. I would say grow in your in your in your in your EI. In your EI. Yeah, your emotional intelligence. Yeah, your emotional intelligence. Grow grow in that. Uh when I when I use that, I think about first Corinthians 9 22, where it paraphrases said, become all things to all people. So you want to grow in that, you know, other require uh connected in order to connect, connect, connection requires awareness of your audience. You want to become aware of your audience. So that's why you need to grow it, grow in that in your emotional and intelligence, so you can learn how to how to connect with the whole audience, like what Corinthians says, become all things to all people. It's something that I feel like Bishop always taught us that I would say, down, keep preaching from overflow, not pressure, overflow. Get it in you, so in you, and you preach from your overflow. Out of the abundance of the heart, does the mouth speaketh out of the abundance of the heart? If your heart, if your heart isn't stirred, your deliverance won't be either. You got to have a stirred heart in order for your deliverance to be stirred. And I would say, if I was just gonna end it just as a reminder, some of the things that we have said, I would say, narratives, let them see it, principles, let them keep it, illustrations help them like that. Illustrations help them grasp it, and stories help them own it.

Pastor Dowell 1:31:15

Wow, I love that. Can you say that one more time? I love that.

Pastor Cornelius 1:31:21

The narrative, let them see it, let them see it. The principle, let them keep it. The illustration helped them grasp it, and the story helped them own it.

Pastor Dowell 1:31:37

Wow, help them own it. And I say, like, well, they they keep it because they understand it. Yeah, like you said, because that's in that mind. Yeah, wow, yes you, wow. So they can wow, I love that man. That that that is so good, and I think in that if we're gonna grow in that, just like you said, it and it it requires intentionality, yeah, good. You gotta be per you, you can't stumble in the growth, you gotta be intentional, and like you're saying, studying Jesus, study other successful preachers, yeah, true. Successful preacher, you know, not just in terms of if they are senior leaders, pastors, you know, or in terms of the size of their church, a congregation. Some of the most anointed preachers and teachers are having church in a garage. In a in a lip, but I'm telling you, so it uh it don't even have a building, so you study them, not to imitate, but so that you can learn the principles that they do and pick up principles and practice, study other public speakers, not just preachers, so you can learn different speaking techniques and different things that that are help. Read books about preaching, delivery, speaking techniques, and so where you learn as you learn and you you that's how you become a master of your craft. You start studying not just the anointing, the glory, uh, or if you're in the into leadership, or you're in the prophetic, or you're in the apostolic, or I'm in deliverance, or I'm in the women's ministry, or I'm in children, study all those things, but as a minister and an orator of God, study the art of preaching and teaching, study, study speaking, study those things, and so that'll help broaden you because now you're starting to study rhetoric, and then you'll learn how some of that go over into the into the Bible. Why you're studying just the art rhetoric and preaching and not preaching, but just speaking, and so you can Google, not only just Google, but go to YouTube University, buy books, look at find podcasts, and then you'll be able to pick up some different things that I think that'll help you. Uh, and then too, growth requires intentionality and evaluation. Uh, look over your stuff, review, find a coach, a mentor, a friend, someone that you can bounce things off that'll help you uh know what you're doing and what are you seeing in when in my speaking, not to just stroke you, make you feel good, not to beat you down, but just to give you feedback, a sounding board so that way you can it helps you to know what do you see when I preach. When I'm preaching, what do you hear? What do you what comes out? And those things can help you as well, and you and you record, review, and refine because mastery is never finished, it's an ongoing journey, and so uh uh Pastor C, I've enjoyed this podcast and uh preaching uh delivery. Uh and I I pray that you as well. Any final comments?

Pastor Cornelius 1:34:54

No, man, just was a blessing. This blessed me a whole lot. This was really a blessing, so I really enjoyed it, man.

Pastor Dowell 1:35:02

Oh man, I I know I can't wait. Uh I uh the narrative, the movie, man. I love that to see it, keep it, grab it, and own it. We pray that you've been blessed. Be sure you share this with another uh minister. Be sure you go back if you haven't watched the other ones or listened to it. We pray this has blessed you. This has been Dr. Canadians and and Dr. Robert F. Dow. We pray that you've been blessed on the Fivefold Food Podcast. We pray that you're eating well now that you've eaten well, that you will excel. Looking forward to being with you in our next podcast. Be sure you write us, let us know if anywhere the way we can uh serve you or be a blessing to you. You can email me at nlf pastor1 at spcglobal.net or nlf pastor1 at gmail.com. And I'll be sure to share it with Dr. Canadians any way that we can serve you or help you until our next time together. Uh Pastor C, we're gonna keep on eating five fold food. Be blessed, man.