From Burnout to Flow State: A New Approach to Leadership and Life with Benjamin Smith

What if true success isn’t about pushing harder, achieving more, or constantly striving for the next milestone?

In this powerful conversation, Rita Mercer sits down with performance consultant, coach, and founder of The Inner Life of Sport, Benjamin Smith, to explore what it means to achieve sustainable success without sacrificing your well-being, identity, and sense of purpose.

Together, they unpack why so many high achievers, leaders, athletes, and executives appear successful on the outside while privately battling anxiety, burnout, perfectionism, and feelings of inadequacy. Benjamin shares how our deepest fears and self-protective patterns often fuel achievement—and why lasting fulfillment requires a shift from performance-driven living to a deeper experience of wholeness.

The conversation dives into mindfulness, flow state, self-awareness, leadership, compassion, and the importance of slowing down long enough to reconnect with what truly matters. Whether you’re a leader, entrepreneur, athlete, caregiver, or someone striving to live with greater intention, this episode offers practical wisdom for cultivating success rooted in presence, purpose, and authenticity.

In This Episode You’ll Learn:

• Why achievement alone doesn’t create fulfillment
• The hidden emotional drivers behind high performance
• How shame, perfectionism, and fear contribute to burnout
• What “The Inner Life” really means
• Why mindfulness isn’t a productivity hack
• How to access flow state in leadership, work, and life
• Questions every leader should ask themselves regularly
• Practical ways to reconnect with purpose and presence
• How self-compassion improves performance and well-being
• Recommended books and resources for personal growth

Chapter Breakdown

1. Success, Identity & The High Performer’s Journey

Benjamin shares his personal journey as an athlete and high achiever and explains how many successful people unknowingly tie their worth to performance. He introduces the concept of becoming fully alive, supported, and connected as the foundation for sustainable success.

2. What Does It Mean to Live a Life Well-Lived?

A reflective discussion on purpose, fulfillment, and how we discover meaning over time. Benjamin explains why living a life well-lived is less about having answers and more about courageously living the questions.

3. Why High Achievers Burn Out

The conversation explores the hidden emotional struggles many successful people carry, including shame, perfectionism, and the relentless need to prove their worth. Benjamin shares how healing begins when we stop fighting these parts of ourselves and start understanding them.

4. Mindfulness Beyond Productivity

Benjamin challenges the popular idea that mindfulness exists solely to improve productivity. Instead, he explains how mindfulness helps us cultivate awareness, compassion, and a deeper connection to reality.

5. Flow State, Leadership & Sustainable Excellence

Learn what flow state really is, what blocks it, and how leaders can create conditions for greater presence, performance, and fulfillment. Benjamin also shares practical advice, recommended books, and simple steps for beginning the journey toward High Performance 2.0.

Memorable Quotes

“Fully alive, well-supported, and connected human beings are unstoppable.”

“What do I truly long for?”

“We’re already enough, and we’re already whole.”

“Mindfulness is not about calm. It’s about awareness.”

“Sometimes success begins with letting go.”

“Flow happens where challenge and skill meet.”

“The courage to live an examined life is the path toward wholeness.”

Resources Mentioned

Books Recommended by Benjamin Smith

• Reboot by Jerry Colonna
• Strong Ground by Brené Brown
• Practicing Compassion by Frank Rogers

Connect with Benjamin Smith

Benjamin works with athletes, leaders, executives, and high-performing professionals through coaching, workshops, and leadership development programs focused on sustainable performance, self-awareness, and wholeness.

Website: www.innerlifeofsport.com

Transcript

Welcome to The Daring Well Podcast with Rita Mercer.

That's when we're performing at our best too. And so it's kind of in the letting go of that need, that we come back home to ourselves, and then also access this greater capacity in our work.

Hello, dear, welcome back to The Daring Well Podcast. What if success isn't about pushing harder, but about becoming more whole? Today, I'm honored to welcome our guest, Benjamin Smith.

I'm excited for Benjamin to share with the Daring Well community about ways to find success as a high performer with wholeness, presence, and a deep connection to joy and purpose.

Benjamin Smith is a performance consultant and a coach, and he's also the founder of The Inner Life of Sport.

His work centers around helping athletes, coaches, C-suite executives, and high performing professionals achieve sustainable success without sacrificing their sense of self, as well as helping people recognize the unconscious fear, shame, and

self-protective patterns that often drive burnout, anxiety, and disconnection. Since 2017, he has worked with elite performers across many professional sports, medicine, the military, Silicon Valley, and many Fortune 500 organizations.

I'm so excited for Benjamin Smith to join us today. Again, thank you for joining The Daring Well Podcast, Benjamin. Welcome.

Thanks for having me, Rita.

It's a pleasure to be with you.

Heck yeah. I'm excited to have our conversation today. So, when you think about your why, so I love for guests to share their why, can you share more about like your identity and your life as an athlete?

So growing up and then also now, and how did that define you? How did that shape your definition of what success is?

Absolutely. I love that question. It's one I'm continuing just to figure out the words to articulate and kind of the story behind it, because I've known that deep within me, but being able to express it outwards is still an unfolding conversation.

And I recently came across this quote from Brené Brown's most recent book, Strong Ground, and she says, Fully alive, well supported, and connected human beings are unstoppable. And that kind of is the essence of who I am and what I do.

And I think in this age of disconnection and AI and becoming in many ways less human, really helping people tap into their full sense of aliveness.

They can wake up every day excited for their work, excited for their relationships, and being able to perform at that peak level, as you mentioned, without a sense of stress and burnout and fear, is really the heart of what I do and has been a part

of my story as well. So that quote has been something I've been kind of working with in the last few months and really tracks back to my own experience as a high achiever in sports, in academics, and wrestling with my own inner life and how the

pressure that I put on myself to do more, to achieve, push hard, also wore me down. And trying to find this rhythm between being fully present to my life as it unfolds with gratitude and appreciation, but also growing into deeper skill sets and

deeper ways of showing up in my craft in whatever form that took as an athlete, as a coach. deeper ways of showing up in my craft in whatever form that took as an athlete, as a coach.

3:58

Inner Life Meaning

So what's the meaning?

So as we think about the meaning of your coaching business, The Inner Life of Sport, what does that mean? How did you come up with that name?

Yeah.

Well, I think about the inner life as kind of the intersection of our psychological, emotional, spiritual well-being, that those voices, inner experiences that we have to kind of give outward expression, but we know also affects how we show up in the

world and how we perform in our roles. And particularly, I'm interested in this in sports because sports allows a space where who we are in the inside is more clear on the outside than in other parts of life.

And I think that's one of the things that draws us into those spaces is this embodied experience of being human and all of the emotional experiences and richness that that shows. But at the same time, all this work extends outside of sport.

And that's one of the things I love doing is showing those links between the business world between the artistic world, all these other places where who we are on the inside shapes what emerges on the outside.

And for me, the inner life captures two components that are key to the work that I do with people, which is on the one side leaning into the performance science from sports psychology that really interrogates what the inner life looks like from a

quantitative side and what are the tools and practices to cultivate confidence and clarity and focus and these ways that we can train our minds just like we train our physical bodies. And then on the other side, kind of this contemplative tradition

from our spiritual lineages that speaks about the bigger questions of what it means to be human and what are our values and what matters most. We have on average 4,000 weeks where we're alive on this earth. What do we want to be doing with that time?

So the way I think about work and the inner life is cultivating that ground of self-awareness of who am I, what are my relationships that are deeply meaningful, how do I connect to a larger source, and then what are the practical tools and practices

that we can layer on top so that we can show up in that grounded present space, regardless of what's happening in the external world. So we can move with stress, we can move with difficulty in ways that are aligned to that deeper core sense of who we

are. So that's in essence the inner life.

That's super cool. I like the meaning behind that. So tapping into the inner confidence, because we can fake confidence on the outside, but what does it look like on the inside with your values, your relationships?

That's super cool. Awesome.

Absolutely. Yeah.

6:52

A Life Well-Lived

So what does it mean to have a life well-lived?

What is that?

Well, that's one of those questions that I don't like to personally answer head on.

I use it as a framing or a guide, because I think it's one that we're constantly changing our answer and response to, and I know I've lived many different answers to that question.

But if you know the poet Rainer Muriel Rilke, who is an Austrian mystic, he has this beautiful series of letters to a young poet who's looking at him inspirationally, and like, how do I get to be where you are?

And there's this one famous passage where he says basically, you're not ready to know all that you want to know. You need to live the questions that you're holding.

And gradually, as you live these questions, the answers will spring open like locked doors.

And so, what is a life well lived, for me, is one of those big questions that we hold loosely, that guides our life and guides our decision making, but isn't one that we fully ever have the answer to.

So I could give lots of different answers to how I might think about that now. And I think part of that is, how do we feel fully alive and energized? How do we lean into both grief and joy with an open heart?

How do we remain connected to ourselves and the people around us? But really, I like to just sit with that question and hold it loosely to see what emerges.

And I think having that as an opening to ask other people their responses, really begins to get to the depths of what it means to be human.

That's good. So it's a constantly evolving process to explore.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's cool. That's cool. A life well lived.

And I hope when I take my last breath on this earth, that is the statement being given at my eulogy, at my funeral is, did I live a life well lived?

And I feel like we're called to do so much more than just get up in the morning, head to work, make some money to cash the check, and repeat it and do it all over again.

Like life is more than just surviving and just getting a check, but it's like, how do you live with purpose? And so I love the work that you do.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think in some ways, we are the ones who individually get to define what is a life well lived. It's both an individual response and a collective one, that there is no universal answer to that question.

And that's one of the things that our spiritual traditions talk about, and I think it's so beautiful, is there's many approaches to answering that question. But we're all just trying to figure it out.

Heck yeah. You're right. You're right.

And the more that you lean into it, the closer you get to tapping into your purpose. Some people are like, I can't get started because I don't know what my purpose is, but you're not going to find it like that. You're going to find it as you go.

You get more information as you move, but if you don't take any action, you're not going to find your purpose. And so, you'll know as you go, is a quote that I love to say, you know as you go.

10:04

High Performer Struggles

When you think about high performers, high achievers, why do you think that they live sometimes this double life?

So on the outside, they look like they're successful, but on the inside, they're struggling with anxiety, they're exhausted, they're overwhelmed, dealing with uncertainty. Like, what do you think, like why do you think they live that double life?

I think a lot of high performers get into those spaces and become high achievers because they're protecting themselves from something deeper, from a shame, a sense of unworthiness, and so they get really good at whatever skill is right in front of

them. And this is true for my lived experience as well. And there's something beautiful about transforming that kind of craving and longing for wholeness into building something, into creating a skill set, and to becoming really great at something.

There's something I find compelling about that.

At some point, many people in those high performance spaces, especially athletes, reach a point where they're like, I've reached the top and I'm still not fulfilled, or I'm just burning out and I'm exhausted.

And that, for me, I think is the second kind of beautiful moment in this journey of recognizing what really matters to me, and how did I get into this kind of way of being. And is there something on the other side?

Is there another way to still be excellent at what I do, to still hone that craft, and also feel a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment?

And that takes this inner work of starting to go back and recognize where did I find, where does that voice that say you can't rest, or you need to be better, or you have to be perfect, where does that come from?

And how can we befriend that part of ourselves? Often we try to shame that part of ourselves, or push it away, and ignore it, but often it just comes back stronger. So how can we actually befriend those driving forces that have gotten us really good?

And then also recognize we have a much bigger capacity, one that can hold that craving for becoming, with also just being and recognizing we're already enough, and we're already whole.

And that can feel so far off to many people in the high performance space. But it is the reality underneath all of those conflicting voices.

And the irony, I think, is that when we can sit with and be with our whole self, and recognize the deep compassion, the deep courage, and the deep connection and clarity that we all have, we perform even better than we knew we were capable of, and

we're able to enter into flow state and be in the zone. We're able to have really difficult conversations, but hold the space with integrity. We're able to lead in an authentic way, and know the right decisions, and trust the people around us.

And for athletes, able to let go of those performance anxiety fears and the stress of the outcome to just enjoying the process. And all of the research and science around that supports that. That's when we're performing at our best, too.

And so it's kind of in the letting go of that need, that we come back home to ourselves, and then also access this greater capacity in our work.

So it's in the letting go. So for the high achievers, the C-suite executives, the quarterbacks like you. So just kind of thinking about like, yeah, when I'm chasing this excess, it's all about in the letting go and just being present.

Yeah, I think that's one of the places we might start, or even just befriending the part of us that feels like we can't let go.

And what about?

Getting curious about that.

Absolutely.

Heck yeah. Where did that come from? Where did that start?

Okay. Is there some common barriers or pitfalls that you think people fall into for this divided life of success on the outside, inner side struggling? Any barriers or pitfalls?

I think in many ways, we're all living.

And this is part of what it means to be human, is to live this divided life at some point. Whether we're on the world stage or not might differ.

But in many ways, I think our early conditioning shapes us so that who we are on the inside are impulses and desires and longings.

When we're met with a social world that has all kinds of inequities and conditionings and different familial roles, we learn what's safe to be and what's not safe to be. And so we can create that division.

And I think the invitation as we get older is to recognize how that's shaped who we've become. And in the words of Parker Palmer, to find an adult form of wholeness.

And so to integrate who we've been conditioned to be on the outside and who we are on the inside, into one thing that is us. And that's beautiful, complicated work that takes time and is always unfolding.

But it's the courage to live that examined life and really investigate who we are and who we're becoming. So I wouldn't necessarily say there are some common pitfalls or ways that high performers in particular fall into those roles.

Many times, it's, you know, they, to look for love, safety, and belonging, they felt like they needed to be able to be perfect or to achieve something great to get recognition, whether that was from people on the playground or people in their home.

But that shapes all of us in different ways, too. Being able to really sit compassionately with our experiences and our history and our story, and recognize the choice and agency we have as we grow older to integrate those things.

Heck yeah. Heck yeah. Good deal.

Good deal, Benjamin.

16:33

Leadership Questions

What's one question that every leader should ask themselves at least once a year?

I love returning to the question of, what do I want? And not, what do I want in terms of a better house, better car, a different partner, whatever that might be on the surface, but what do I truly long for?

And for me, this looks like a monthly, bi-monthly practice of pulling out a blank sheet of paper writing that question at the top, and then just journaling what comes to mind.

And when I've done this with other leaders, often it's like, I just really want some peace, or I want a little bit of stillness. I want this relationship to heal or whatever it might be.

And so, getting clear on what are those deeper desires that we may not have time to really attend to when we're moving from thing to thing each day, and especially in a leadership role where there's constant demands on your time and attention.

But if we can pause those for just a moment and get clear on what do we really want, what do we want our company to go, what do we want our team to go, that shapes the course of everything else we do.

And so, just that subtle listening can be really transformative. So, what do you want or what do you long for is sometimes another way I frame it.

Heck yeah. I like that. What do you want?

What do you long for? Yeah, because I think sometimes we get so busy that we don't listen to what is like the driving force. We get so busy chasing the outcome that we don't like listen for like, why did I really start this?

Why did I get started? Like, what's motivating me? And we lose the passion behind it and it just becomes the work that I do versus the passion that we really started with.

So, I like that. That's a good question for reflection. Why does mindfulness not work as a productivity hack?

Well, first of all, I think the explosion of mindfulness in our kind of pop culture and especially in the science space and really in sports.

I mean, mindfulness is a huge tool in the performance science space now. It's really awesome and it's super exciting and great to see.

I personally was part of a major randomized control trial where we studied how mindfulness affects college athletes and their performance and well-being. It's something I've been practicing for a while.

But one of the things I've noticed with high achievers and high performers, in particular, around mindfulness is they often take that practice itself and make it into something that are either good or bad at and focus on the outcome.

It can be looking for that peace or calmness or focus. And on the other side of a practice. And so I think we can get into this mindset of, you know, I need to work out X number of hours a day.

I need to meditate X number of minutes a day. I need to journal. I need to, and all of a sudden, our wellness to-do list is longer than our work to-do list.

And that I think really gets away from the heart of what mindfulness is inviting us into. And really, contemplative practices in general, which is building our capacity to be aware of what's happening right now. It's not about calm.

It's not about focus. It's really about awareness. There's a quote from a Jesuit theologian named Walter Burkhardt.

And he says that contemplation, of which mindfulness is one form, is taking a long, loving look at the real. And I love that quote because so much of life is what we've been talking about. It's going faster and faster.

And looking at where our technological trends are heading, it's just going to continue to speed up. And so this is really hitting the brakes for just a moment and saying, what is it like to just be here in a sense of stillness, that long look.

And then often we notice that what is present is really uncomfortable. And part of the reason we're moving so fast is because we're carrying sadness, we're carrying anger, we're carrying fear, and to slow down is really scary.

So that's where if we can bring a loving look at what's happening in our bodies, what's happening in our minds, what's happening in our communities, bringing some self-compassion and compassion for others, we're able to sit in that a little bit

longer. The reason why we do this is to the last part of its definition, to have an insight or a glimpse into the real. So what is actually happening in this moment?

Not what we think is happening when we're moving really fast, or what we hope is happening, or these other lenses that we bring. But can we have a little bit more clarity on what's happening in this big moment right in front of us?

Also are that I'm connected to and that surround me, whether it's the birds chirping, sun overhead, this much wider expanse, this much bigger reality that we're all present to, really a sacred reality.

So that I think is the essence of what mindfulness in its depth and nuance is helping us move towards.

But I think in many performance settings gets pushed away for the sake of efficiency and just making us calmer, more focused, productive performers. And so mindfulness invites a much deeper understanding of ourselves and what it means to be human.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that.

I like that's a different way of thinking about, well, not even a different way of thinking, but just a clear way of thinking about mindfulness and how it's really, really most helpful, most beneficial.

22:43

Understanding Flow State

Why do you think, well, actually before we think even, what is flow state? So can we think about like, what is the flow state? Even before we kind of break down like how flow state leads into sports and leadership.

So what is flow state?

Yeah, flow state's been understood and conceptualized, really going back millennium in our spiritual traditions in different forms. So humans have talked about and captured this experience for thousands of years.

Then in the latter half of the 20th century, a scientist named Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who is a psychologist, wrote the book on flow and kind of termed, gave this experience a name and kind of conceptualized it.

There's nine characteristics that often make up this experience of flow.

Some of them include being fully present in the moment, concentrating on the task at hand, sense of time slowing down or speeding up, really kind of feeling malleable compared to our normal day-to-day rhythms of a ticking clock, a sense of autonomy,

and we have control and agency in what's happening, and also a deeper sense of release, and that we're a part of something much bigger at the same time. So both individual and having agency, but also not having agency and connected to some larger

flow or experience. So many ways flow state is a paradoxical experience. For athletes, we talk about it as being in the zone. But to give really concrete examples, I think about it in those places where we lose track of time.

So for me, it's in a really deep conversation where I'm listening attentively to the person in front of me, and then I look up and it's been multiple hours, and it's only because my stomach's grumbling that I know so much time has passed.

For athletes, it can just be the game clock is kind of in the background, but really each moment is unfolding slowly, every step, every little movement of their muscles, and responding to an opponent feels slow.

I think in leadership settings, it looks like being able to listen beneath the surface to what's happening in a conversation, and being able to expertly pull out what's needed out of a group and create that cohesion, and recognize that we're all in

this together. There's also an experience of group flow, where people can enter into this all as a team. It's again marked by a sense of individual autonomy, but also this collective experience of knowledge and wisdom moving together.

So it's different than our kind of hierarchical structures of leadership. So that's a little bit of what we talk about in terms of flow.

And I always encourage people I'm talking to, just to think about where the space is where you lose track of time and where you do something for its own sake, where it feels so rewarding just to do it.

Rewarding and challenging at the same time.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So it can be it can be gardening, it can be sports, it can be something at work. I had a psychology professor who's really interested in data and he would get in his spreadsheets and he'd get into flow state. That for me is not flow state.

That's my flow state.

It's not a data junkie like that.

But yeah, so it looks differently for every person. And to your point too, flow is also the space where challenge and skill meet, which I think is beautiful because it's not just pure bliss.

You know, I'm relaxing out on the beach, but it's really the space where what we're growing into and our challenge needs to be slightly outside of our current capacity or skill level. So just right at the edge of our potential.

And that's where we enter into this beautiful experience. And so we need that challenge, we need a little bit of stress to enter this full experience of being truly alive.

Heck yeah. Heck yeah.

27:16

Flow State Blocks

What do you think blocks flow state when you think about athletes and leaders?

This is where it goes back to the inner life. So much of flow state is blocked by those voices that tell us we're not good enough, or don't mess up, or you did that again.

All those shame voices or the perfectionist voices that we carry can be major blockers to flow state.

Other things that block flow state too are just switching our attention constantly from task to task and being in environments that are demanding so much of us from a stimulus perspective that we can never really enter into that depth.

And so this is again where contemplative practices can support our ability to enter into flow state and there's really strong research here that our ability to find stillness and reconnect with the present moment can help us find this zone, this

space of flow when we're under stress or when we're in these challenging spaces where we really want to be fully present. So those are some of the things that block flow state and ways to perhaps enter back into it.

So starting at a contemplative practice, a mindfulness practice, starting to recognize even just where do I get into flow and how and why does that happen? Just noticing your own personal patterns can be helpful.

And then as you go deeper, beginning to sit with some of those voices that make it hard, whether it's comparison or it's difficult relationships with other people that block our experience of being fully in the moment and where we're more

That's good, Benjamin.

That's good. So ways to tune in so that you notice how to get back into flow state. So know the things that do tap you into flow state.

To lean into those moments of challenge and stress, because we don't have to avoid it if we notice that that's positive energy. It doesn't have to be viewed as negative energy when we think about stress.

It can be positive energy that's pushing you into your flow state. Right amount of balance of challenge and excitement at the same time.

Yeah, absolutely.

Heck yeah.

29:54

Actionable Wisdom

As we start to wrap up, what are some words of wisdom? What are some action steps? Is there any books that you would recommend for the high performer, high achiever?

Of course, there's lots of practices, lots of books, tons of resources.

But I think really starting to slow down enough to listen to yourself is where I usually start my work with people. Because in this high performance space, we're always asked to do more.

So to read another book, to practice meditation, to do some other exercise can feel overwhelming to somebody who's already trying to do so much. And so for me, it really starts with like, how can you find a place of stillness within yourself?

And that might be an evening walk, it might be putting your phone away for a meal, it might be spending 10 minutes sitting with your breath.

It can look like so many different things, but a place where you can begin to tap back into a sense of presence and who you really are, and what matters most to you. That being said, I do have a couple of books that I love recommending to people.

There's a fantastic book called Reboot, The Leadership and the Art of Growing Up, by a friend, Jerry Colonna, who's an executive coach, talks about his own journey navigating burnout and stress, and then coming back to this deeper sense of himself

and how that shapes how he leads now. Love Brené Brown's newest book, Strong Ground, she talks about very much what we've been describing in this conversation of leadership in 21st century needs to start from a strong ground, a strong foundation, and

she likens it to physical training, where if you don't have a strong core, you're more likely to develop an injury by compensating in some pattern that's maladaptive. Saying the same thing is true of our inner lives.

If we don't have that strong foundation, that strong core, when stress and pressure face us instead of growing and developing from that deep contemplative work so that they can show up in that high performance 2.0 as we've been talking about where

it's from a grounded sense of wholeness, from a sustainable confidence and feeling fully alive versus where they often start, which is exhausted, depleted, just running on empty, but still feeling like they can't take a break or take a pause. So

that's the work that we do together. I do send out a weekly resource guide with books and practices and questions to consider that folks can find on my website, innerlifeofsport.com.

There's a space to add your email to that list and get some resources, and then some long-form content usually every couple of weeks as well on the things that I'm thinking about in this space.

Cool. Awesome, Benjamin. Well, thank you for sharing the resources.

Thank you for sharing your journey. Thanks for sharing some different ways that leaders can show up fully as their true self, and lead with confidence, lead without the fear, lead without the whole performance.

I think that's what makes leaders so great is that they are driven, but also sometimes they lose the heart of why they're driven. So I love that that's the work that you help to do is get deeper with the inner life. So that's awesome.

That's awesome. Well, sweet. Well, thank you again, Benjamin.

It's been an honor getting to know you and getting to hear your heart, getting to hear some words of wisdom. Appreciate it.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me on, Rita. It's been a pleasure having this conversation with you.

Absolutely.

All right, wellness friends, that's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for stopping by The Daring Well Podcast. Don't forget to like, to share, and subscribe wherever you hear this episode.

Wishing you a fabulous day, my dear. Until next time, keep living, keep loving, and keep daring well. Take care, guys.

God bless. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of The Daring Well Podcast.

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