Mindfulness in Anxiety Treatment (Part 1) | EP 318

What happens when three anxiety specialists get together to talk practically about how they use mindfulness in anxiety treatment? This week on The Anxious Truth, we find out.

I'm joined by Lauren Rosen, who practices in Los Angeles specializing in OCD and anxiety disorders, and Joanna Hardis from Cleveland, also an expert in treating OCD, anxiety, and anxiety disorders. Together, we break down how mindfulness in anxiety treatment actually works in real therapy sessions - not the Instagram version, but the practical, sometimes messy reality of applying these principles with actual anxious clients.

We tackle the biggest misconceptions about mindfulness (spoiler: it's not about achieving a quiet mind), discuss why it's often the "hardest sell" in therapy despite being incredibly effective, and demonstrate real techniques through live role-play. You'll hear us work through the difference between being "neck up" versus "neck down," learn about the labeling practice that creates a "speed bump" between sensation and catastrophe, and understand why non-judgmental awareness is a skill that requires genuine practice.

Lauren and Joanna take different approaches to applying mindfulness in anxiety treatment, and you'll hear both perspectives as we explore everything from the campfire analogy (anxiety doesn't have to become a wildfire) to the practical challenge of teaching clients to observe their thoughts without getting dragged along by them.

Whether you're dealing with panic attacks, social anxiety, OCD, or generalized anxiety, the principles we discuss apply across all anxiety presentations. This isn't about quick fixes or magic solutions - it's about developing psychological flexibility and learning to relate differently to your internal experiences.

Fair warning: we got so deep into this conversation that we had to split it into two parts. This is part one, and part two drops in episode 319.

If you're tired of surface-level advice about mindfulness and want to understand how it actually works in anxiety recovery, this episode delivers the real deal from three therapists who use these techniques every day with anxious clients.

Resources mentioned:

• Lauren Rosen: theobsessivemind.com
• Joanna Hardis: joannahardis.com

For Full Show Notes On This Episode: theanxioustruth.com/318

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Interested in doing therapy with me? For more information on working with me directly to overcome your anxiety, follow this link.

Disclaimer: The Anxious Truth  is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to The Anxious Truth does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the host or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, when you have questions about your own well-being, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.

Transcript

What Mindfulness for Anxiety Means

Speaker 1 0:02

Mindfulness for anxiety? Fine, but what does that even mean? What if we put three anxiety specialists in the room and ask them to talk practically about how they use the principles of mindfulness when treating anxious clients? Well, this week on the Anxious Truth, that's exactly what we did, so let's get to it. Hello everybody, welcome back to the Anxious Truth.

Speaker 1 0:25

This is the podcast that covers all things anxiety, anxiety disorders and anxiety recovery. I'm Drew Linsalata, creator and host of the podcast and the YouTube channel. I'm a therapist specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders, practicing in the state of New York. I am also a former sufferer of panic disorder, agoraphobia, ocd and depression for many years of my life, on and off, but much better now A three-time author on the topic, social media educator, advocate and guy with a really expensive microphone that gets together every two weeks with friends of mine and talks about these things. So this week on the Anxious Truth, we're talking about what it looks like when anxiety specialists therapists who practice in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders and OCD use the principles of mindfulness when working with anxious clients. I'm joined by my friends Lauren Rosen Lauren practices in LA. She specializes in treating OCD, anxiety and anxiety disorders and Joanna Hardis. Joanna practices in Cleveland. She also specializes in treating OCD anxiety and anxiety disorders and we're going to talk about how the three of us bring the principles of mindfulness into our practices with actual anxious clients who have the same problems that you probably do if you're watching this particular YouTube video or this podcast episode.

Speaker 1 1:36

Oh, future me here. Just a quick note. Before we get started with Lauren and Joanna, I want you to notice, when we start doing the role play, how different it is from one therapist to another. I trust both of these people implicitly. They know what they're doing. They have a tremendous track record. These are trustworthy, ethical clinicians who are expert in their field. But notice how Lauren and Joanna take two different approaches to applying the principles of mindfulness with their client. That would be me, by the way, terrible actor, but I did the best they could. So notice that. That's in the second half of today's video and then afterwards we'll talk about it a little bit more. All right, before we get into that, two things.

Speaker 1 2:13

This is a two-part episode. We got into it pretty deeply so we didn't want to record for an entire hour. We kind of abruptly cut it off. So if you come back in two weeks for episode 319 of the Anxious Truth. You'll see part two of this and before we actually get into the part where I bring Lauren and Joanna on with me, just a quick reminder that the Anxious Truth is more than just this episode, just this video, just this podcast episode.

Three Anxiety Specialists Share Insights

Speaker 1 2:36

There's a ton more stuff on my website at theanxioustruthcom. There are books and low-cost courses and workshops and all kinds of free stuff and all the social media content. So check it out, avail yourself of all the resources. Again, that's at theanxioustruthcom. I hope you find whatever is over there helpful, because a lot of people say that it really is. So check it out. All right, I'm going to bring Lauren and Joanna on with me now and then, when we are done with part one, I'll come back and wrap it up. I'll give you all of their links and everything, and then, yeah, come back in two weeks for episode 319, for part two of this. That's enough me rambling, let's get to it. Okay, as promised, with me on screen. You know both of them, but I don't think the three of us have ever done this together.

Speaker 2 3:16

We haven't. No, this is great.

Speaker 1 3:18

Yeah, we have next to me is Joanna Hardest, and down below us is Lauren Rosen, out in Cali, our West Coast compatriot.

Speaker 2 3:28

Hey.

Speaker 1 3:28

Now I have had the privilege of interacting with a lot of great clinicians and you guys I always say this you guys were great, you all accepted me as part of the club long before I was in it and I appreciate I'm never going to be able to pay you guys back, but of all of you guys, you two are the ones that I know have the strongest like mindfulness components At least you talk about it. Maybe other people have strong mindfulness components in their practices, but you guys actively talk about it. So like I couldn't think of two better people to talk about this with.

Speaker 3 3:58

And we're so fun yeah.

Speaker 2 4:00

And we're fun. That's like the best compliment coming from you, Drew.

Speaker 3 4:07

Yeah, so fun.

Speaker 2 4:10

It's surprising to me that, though, that people don't talk about it more. I guess you know, as you're saying, that because it's so instrumental in treatment from my vantage point, and I know from both of yours as well.

Speaker 1 4:24

Yeah, yeah, in treatment, from my vantage point and I know from both of yours as well, yeah, yeah, I think you can't. There's a reason why the current wave is mindfulness and acceptance based.

Speaker 2 4:33

There's a reason why it's in there. Yeah, absolutely. And and looking at the, you know the treatment modalities, like acceptance and commitment therapy, which we're all big fans of, and the mindfulness component, it's so interesting how effective it is across diagnoses. Right, we look at ACT and it is an evidence-based treatment for so many different issues and I think that it sort of speaks to like okay, there's something really important here that transcends what you know, what somebody is is struggling with specifically.

Speaker 3 5:08

Yeah, what's interesting to me and I'm curious to get your eyes to take, but, Drew, put me on my path. If this is out of what you wanted to talk about is for the people that I've treated. Um, most say it's a game changer for those for whom they establish it as a habit. I know in my life it has really helped me tremendously, but yet it's the hardest thing for me to sell to a client.

Speaker 2 5:36

Yes.

Speaker 3 5:37

And so then, like, which is why partially, which is why in part, we're all here to talk about this? Because I have struggled over, you know, probably two decades of my career, how to talk to clients about, you know, mindful awareness, in a way that they, you know, their eyes don't roll back in their head and I immediately don't turn them off because, because I really do believe and I immediately don't turn them off.

Speaker 2 6:05

Yes.

Speaker 3 6:07

Because? Because I really do believe and I'm curious how you guys do it how? Because I think it is such a game changer and such a great adjunct to what, whatever we're doing.

Speaker 1 6:17

Yeah, I used to. I preface a lot of my my mindfulness pitch, if you will, with clients with, like I don't mean to sound so therapist-y or like I don't want to go into that cliche thing, but we need to talk about that and it softens the blow a little bit and I think part of it is because of maybe people's preconceived notions about what that word is like. Oh, is that the thing where I have to wear white outfit and put on a cushion, like and get my lighting correct and I'll achieve a state of inner peace? No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 6:48

You only achieve inner peace if you get your lighting correct, though for sure.

Speaker 3 6:52

A room in your house devoted to meditation.

Speaker 1 6:55

A hundred percent. If you don't own a ring light, you can't be mindful. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 6:59

You can't, you for sure can't have perpetual peace.

Speaker 1 7:03

That's definitely not the case yeah, I think that I like joining when you say it's hardest to sell, like to me, the sell always starts with. First, let's talk about what it's not, so that you don't get really disappointed, because I find and I don't know what you guys think a lot of people come into it and they are thinking oh, I heard that mindfulness is really good for anxiety. You know, it's good for my mental health. Okay, well, what does? Oh, it means that I get to. That's how you get a quiet mind, that's how you find peace, that's how you calm down, like you know, pull it Right, needle off the record.

Speaker 2 7:30

We got to stop right there and revisit, right, so Well, and that's why I think so many people try it and think I'm not doing it right, because there's a really what the goal is, and the goal isn't to quiet the mind, it's not to stop the mind from making noise, it's to have a different relationship with the noise in your mind, to have an awareness of it and to make friends with it. That's how you develop peace with your mind, is by making friends with your mind, not by, like, trying to manage and control it. Surprisingly, yeah, right, which is not a quick fix.

Speaker 3 8:04

No, no, it's not a quick fix in any way.

Speaker 2 8:10

And yeah, I think that that's why it's also a hard sell is even like yes, there's the part about the misconceptions of what mindfulness is and what we're after. But when somebody really understands that, like, oh no, we're trying to accept this right, like that's what mindfulness affords us, is this route toward acceptance of what is so that we can live life on our terms, it's like, but wait a second, I don't want to accept this, like, this is what I. This is the problem that has developed has expressly happened because of the fact that I want to resist this. So it is a hard sell because it's totally antithetical with what people have been trying to do unsuccessfully for a long time. So if you're looking at therapy, it's like oh, this is a way that I'm going to finally get the thing. I'm going to get rid of my thoughts, I'm going to get rid of my feelings, I'm going to live in perpetual bliss. Then you hear mindfulness and acceptance and you're like well, no, that's not what I want, right?

Speaker 3 9:11

Yeah.

Misconceptions About Mindfulness

Speaker 2 9:12

But and I guess maybe something to consider all three of us I think one of the important pieces is understanding that, that that pie in the sky idea, it's just not possible. Right, like perpetual peace, is an illusion that we keep grasping after. Right? You know how I get? I get esoteric real fast, apparently.

Speaker 1 9:36

Oh, bring it. That's what I'm used to.

Speaker 2 9:37

Yeah, you right. But if we're grasping after that, if we, if we are sold on it's still possible to have perpetual bliss, then we will keep chasing it and we won't dive into mindfulness, not really. We won't be willing to notice things nonjudgmentally and accept them. Accept them. So I think that how do you guys support people in getting to that place of you know, in the realm of act? We talk about creative hopelessness, right, but like really recognizing that this, this dream of constant okayness, is not. It's not on the table.

Speaker 1 10:22

Yeah, it is a hard sell for people who want to feel better.

Speaker 2 10:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1 10:26

But I just want to feel better. But part of the reason why you don't feel so good is that you're trying so hard to feel good in a circumstance that you can't force that, right yeah.

Speaker 2 10:35

Right. For anyone who's ever tried to force feeling good, we all know how how. Yeah useless it is it doesn't really work out. And I have some ideas, but I like I would love to know kind of how you guys get there with people of like, getting people into this place of like, okay, this, this is necessary, right, like moving forward with accepting something as necessary.

Speaker 3 11:01

You know, sometimes I and I don't know if this entire, I don't think this entirely answers your question directly. But you know, sometimes I really go with the definition of radical acceptance and help people that we don't have to like what is going on. You know, acceptance I you know I go back to that definition that we don't have to like what's going on in reality.

Speaker 3 11:21

We don't have to, you don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but it's that notion that we have to accept, that that this is our reality right now and sort of I use that analogy of like the campfire versus the wildfire that that, you know, sometimes acceptance is just accepting that like the reality sucks. That's our campfire and so sometimes my job, you know it's like what are we doing? That's making it worse and making a campfire into a wildfire.

Speaker 2 11:53

Yes.

Speaker 3 11:53

And so, instead of going at you know how someone is struggling for, like you know, always being better like what might we be doing that is making a hard situation that much harder?

Speaker 1 12:07

And for long again.

Speaker 3 12:08

Yes.

Speaker 1 12:09

So that fire is burning, like yeah, it's hot out and I don't want a campfire tonight and it's making me sweat and if you leave the campfire alone it will burn itself out at some point. Another one might come up tomorrow, but like it'll burn itself out.

Speaker 2 12:23

But if you keep fanning the flames, I don't like this, but it's there.

Speaker 1 12:27

There's a fire in front of you right now. I don't care how much you don't like it, it's there already. So too bad. And if I'm going to fight it, fight it, fight it. It burns three times as long.

Speaker 2 12:36

Right.

Speaker 1 12:36

Yeah, yeah, one of the things. I think that principles of mindfulness really enter into it. Because, well, the reason why you're not accepting is that you're still resisting and that resistance is automatic. Or you will say at first, it's automatic. At first you're going to tell me I have no choice, it's out of my control. I must go get ice packs and call my safe person to run to the emergency room or whatever I have to do my compulsions, it's automatic, it's out of my control. But is it? And that's really it Like if you can't learn to watch that autopilot working, then you have no shot at participating in the process and steering in the other direction when it demands that you go left and you just get dragged by it automatically and unconsciously.

Speaker 1 13:27

Now how are you ever going to steer to the right if you can't even know that it's on? So all we're learning to do is watch that machine work. That's all. Mindfulness is that's what I try and teach anyway. It's not a state. There's no outcome. It's not a state of peace. It's not a state of quiet. It's not a state of well-being's not a state of wellbeing, it's a state of awareness.

Speaker 2 13:44

Right, and it's a practice of aware, like it's a continuous practice, because because that, that resistance, we do automatically return to that unknowingly all of the time, and we have to continually go. Oh wait, I got back into resistance, let me get back into acceptance. I mean, I can say this for my own recovery journey, as well as those that I work with, is like I've just. I think yesterday I was noticing how, how caught up I was and resisting anxiety and then continue the. The difference is that I continually drop it, now like I'm able to recognize it and and soften toward it, but I absolutely just piggybacking on what you just said in terms of the how of acceptance and making it practical. That's, I think, what we all are so passionate about, because it can get esoteric, but it's. It's a stepwise process in many ways, and I love a quote that is often misattributed to Viktor Frankl, but it's actually Stephen Covey.

Speaker 2 14:50

I had to look this up for my book recently. I think we were talking about it, drew. But between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space lies our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom, and that quote so beautifully summarizes, from my vantage point, what mindfulness affords the people who practice it, which is when we're looking for that space between stimulus and response.

Speaker 2 15:17

And if we can be non-judgmentally aware of what's going on in our present moment experience, then we're not going to just react. We have that moment to respond. That non-judgment is the bedrock on which acceptance becomes possible, because if I'm judging something, I'm almost immediately resisting it. If it's like, oh, I don't like this, make it go away is only a breath later. If I can notice non-judgmentally like, oh, I'm feeling anxious right now, then I have the opportunity to access that space and go like, how do I want to respond to this anxiety? Do I want to keep resisting it? Do I want to keep thinking about how I'm going to resolve it, even though I know rationally that I can't? Or do I want to just say like, oh, anxiety is here and get on with my life on my terms?

Speaker 3 16:14

it's effortless. People don't recognize this because we're so neck up.

Speaker 2 16:20

Clients are.

Speaker 3 16:21

So we live neck up, but when, when this is what I, you know, which I and I think accepting is neck down and that when we're really accepting, it is effortless because we're not doing anything, we're like dropping. That's what you know. We all use that language of softening, releasing, releasing, loosening, grip. It's, you know, it's, it's all like a neck down and it's all like it's effort which we're not doing, or it's effortless yeah, that response only comes when you can practice watching the machinery.

Speaker 2 17:00

Yeah.

Acceptance vs. Perpetual Peace

Speaker 1 17:01

So, and even for me, I had the temerity to actually go back to school and become. That's how recovered I think I am, but I have the nerve to do that. And even I like Lauren, you were saying too I there are times when I have to notice that, like, wait I? Why is my heart pounding while I'm like loading the dishwasher? Oh, I know why Cause there's something going on that I don't like and I'm pushing against it, even though that's pointless.

Speaker 2 17:21

Yeah.

Speaker 1 17:22

And the softening happens Right. So then I recognize what's happening. So the non I think people get tripped up on nonjudgmental judgment is kind of automatic, like you can't not judge it, but you can see the judging, and then like, oh, I see what I just did there. I pushed back instantly. Take my hands down.

Speaker 2 17:37

Yes, totally. You can practice non-judgment and you can practice non-judgment of judgment.

Speaker 1 17:42

Of the judgment. Yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 17:44

Like, oh interesting, I'm pushing back, okay, well, do I want to keep doing that? Right, like you can introduce it at any moment in this progression and it interrupts that reaction where you're just like pushing against it.

Speaker 1 17:55

If you don't hit the stop button on this episode after hearing not judging the judging, then more power to you guys. This stuff is so wonky, nerdy and weird sometimes, but it's important, like it's really important.

Speaker 2 18:14

But don't you find that people are relieved when they hear that? Because, again, that's another area where it's like, oh well, I can't, I can't refrain from judging. It's like, oh no, no, no, no, you don't have to like refrain from any sort of automatic anything. It's what you're meeting that with.

Speaker 1 18:23

You just have to see that you're doing it, that's all. Just see that it's happening. One of the coolest quotes that I think I've ever heard. I believe it's an Alan Watts story, and he's frustrated because he's walking with his girlfriend or whatever she was to him and saying like he'd had a terrible meeting. His mind was all over the place, he just couldn't focus. And the girl, the woman he was with, said oh, but why is that a problem? He said well, I'm trying to get away from my thoughts. And she goes, not me, I love thinking, and that was perfectly okay. So, like, when that story was so great, it was actually very evidently, very impactful for him too. Of course, nobody knows her name, so did he give her credit? No, but the point is like oh, I like thinking, yeah, my mind was really active too, but I'm all right with that. I was just watching it be active, that is so.

Speaker 1 19:16

That was such a big quote for me to see, because so many people in our context are like yeah, but how do I? Those thoughts will go away, right, maybe, but maybe not. And can you learn to watch them instead of interacting with them? So what am I supposed to? People ask me all the time, joanna. If you get this question, well, what am I? So? What am I supposed to think?

Speaker 3 19:42

Well, what am I? So? What am I supposed to think? Well, whatever you want, whatever your brain comes up with, but I think that that's really hard. So I don't know about you guys. I mean, I think we, when we practice that in session, it's. I think that that's a really hard skill for people. I mean, I know I use a labeling practice with people, with clients, which I find really helpful helping them label. You know, we'll take two, three minutes in session to just label, thinking, thought, feeling, sensation, what their experience is. Because I think for us, you know, it's much easier for us to say oh well, you know, we can be the observer and we can watch the machine, but I think for a client that's an incredibly hard skill. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 20:26

And so just I think, anyone starting mindfulness really.

Speaker 3 20:29

Absolutely so. Starting with two minutes of a of a labeling practice or something, is really really helpful.

Speaker 1 20:39

And that's the thing to do, that is, if I label it, then at least I see that I'm making the next jump to judging and telling a story or finding meaning in that. Otherwise we forget, we jump right into the meaning making, forget the part that we're thinking, and then we declare it out of our control, automatic and frustrating, but like no, no. Start by labeling first.

Speaker 3 21:00

Yeah, the whole point of the exercise is just to get better at identifying the difference between you know what everything is, what the behavior is, when I'm noticing a sensation, when I'm noticing what you know. It's just to get better at observing and describing, which I think is so hard for people.

Speaker 1 21:20

And we get that automatic, like I'll do it also with physical sensations, like, tell me what's happening in your body right now. Well, it feels like no, no, no, don't tell me what it feels like, tell me what you're actually experiencing. And it's so hard for every human being to bring it right back down to just the facts.

Speaker 3 21:35

Right, just just be objective to bring it right back down to just the facts. Right, just just be objective.

Speaker 2 21:41

If I can plug just the facts.

Speaker 3 21:42

Mental fitness skill I think number two in the book.

Speaker 1 21:48

I'm here for that I love it Always plugging.

Speaker 2 21:53

That's awesome. I it's so funny to like because I actually have a whole chapter in my book dedicated to what thoughts, feelings and urges and sensations are. Because it's like, if you don't know the topography of your mind, how in the world are you supposed to navigate it effectively? And then you start saying things like I feel like and well, that's actually a thought, not a feeling, if you're saying it feels like, so understanding that for sure, especially because, ultimately, when we're working with people, it's like I'm trying to get people to support people and accepting that they're having a thought, that they're having a feeling or a sensation, without taking the bait and engaging in active thinking.

Speaker 1 22:38

Yeah.

The Campfire Analogy

Speaker 2 22:39

And if you don't like nobody teaches you that nobody. Nobody sits down as like. Okay, here's what happens in your mind. I'm curious, like I don't know, would like, would it be helpful for your listeners if we like actually talked through like one of like how this comes up in the room, Like obviously, like we work with a lot of different anxieties, but functionally they all work very, very similarly. Um, and like why this mindfulness stuff is, like how it helps on a practical level yeah, let's do it. Yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 23:17

I'll be the anxious person. I'm the new guy in the room in the club, so oh, okay, Exciting.

Speaker 2 23:25

Um, what do you? What are you anxious about, sir?

Speaker 1 23:28

Everything. No, I woke up this morning and you know that thing, the minute I opened my eyes, like I noticed my heart is pounding and like I'm going to have just a terrible day, and I barely slept and this was just like on the hamster wheel all the time. Every morning is like this. I don't get it, and it's lasting all day long. I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2 23:47

So what is it that's lasting? When you say it's lasting all day, Like you're telling me that you're waking up in the morning, you're immediately feeling this, this, you're having this experience. I'd love to better understand, like, what is? What is that experience that you're having first thing in the morning?

Speaker 1 24:05

Um well, I mean, it's just it feels like I'm vibrating like a tuning fork, internally, like physically. I have all those, you know. I just don't like it. Like it feels like there's somebody grasping at the base of my throat. I'm having a hard time breathing. I can feel my heartbeat.

Speaker 2 24:22

It's so heavy all day long and it just feels like I'm vibrating and then like oh, my mind, you know, it feels like I need to be near a hospital.

Speaker 1 24:27

I'm always worried about this and like what's going to happen next.

Speaker 2 24:30

Yeah, it sounds like you're really scared about what's going to happen.

Speaker 3 24:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2 24:41

And that all of these sort of physical sensations are, like the you described a lot of different things that are happening internally, like a jitteriness, a lot of movement that you feel like heaviness in your chest, and then you're having the thought like, oh gosh, I have to be near, like I gotta be near, a hospital because something really bad could happen. I guess I'm curious too that, like, once all that starts, where do you go from there? Like, what so this, this is lasting all day. When, when you have that thought like I really need to be close to a hospital because I'm I'm terrified something bad's going to happen, what, like, what do you do with that? Do you get close? Like do you drive to a hospital?

Speaker 1 25:18

Like, not proud to say, but I have. At times I've sat in the parking lot or you certainly wouldn't be the first, by the way. Thank you.

Speaker 2 25:26

Yeah, a little better.

Speaker 1 25:27

But like I spend all day long checking my pulse and scanning my body to see how it's getting worse and how I'm doing, I'm looking for the problem and checking to see if I'm going to have to be alone and is anybody going to leave the house. Who's going to save me? It's all day long. It's like super exhausting.

Speaker 2 25:42

Yeah, it's tricky too, because you're talking about, like, checking your pulse Right and it's that's, um, it's probably seems very automatic to you, but that's actually, it's a behavior, right, like you're kind of going into the recesses of your mind to analyze what your physical sensations mean. Um, and understandably right, cause you're scared, um, but I have, I imagine that you have a fair amount of experience now that would rationally indicate that you can have all of these experiences without something bad happening. Is that right?

Speaker 1 26:18

Yeah, it's been like 2000 heart attacks.

Speaker 2 26:20

Right.

Speaker 1 26:21

I get it Logically. I understand Part of me gets it, but it doesn't matter in the moment it seems no no, it doesn't, it's.

Speaker 2 26:29

It's cause it's still really really scary Right Like that grabs you.

Speaker 2 26:32

And I think, understanding that you're having these thoughts, right, you're having these strong emotional sensations, which are really just a bunch of physical sensations in your body, um, and if we can notice all of that nonjudgmentally right which, granted, it's hard, right, but it is a skill that you can develop and if you can do that right, then you get to make a choice as to whether or not you continually check to see whether or not your pulse has varied at all, and then trying to determine what that means right, which is keeping you in your head all day and which is actually it's making your anxiety more intense. It's continually re-triggering that anxiety over and over again. Unfortunately, like when you're engaging in that thinking, you are going to feel anxious for a prolonged period of time You're going to. It's going to intensify the anxiety versus sort of noticing when those thoughts and feelings come up, allowing for them to be there and then going about your day. But I'm curious what Joanna might have to say. Yeah, I got the two.

Speaker 1 27:36

I got two therapists in the room I'm feeling it right now. I'm anxious right now. What do I do?

Speaker 2 27:42

Yeah.

Speaker 3 27:44

Well, I'm wondering you know what you're currently experiencing in this moment. Can you describe for me? So imagine, you know I don't. I want you to just describe for me what, what you're experiencing in your body or in your head.

Speaker 1 28:04

It's I'm sitting on my chair, but it feels like I'm moving. So it's a sensation of like, like vibrating is the best word I have for it. I guess it feels like I'm I'm shaking, but I know I'm not. But that's how I feel right now.

Speaker 3 28:19

So can you tell me vibrating? Do you feel it in your chest? Is it in your torso? It's like I want you to get really granular with me about where you're experiencing this.

Speaker 1 28:34

Yeah.

Speaker 3 28:35

Can you I'm sorry to interrupt you, to interrupt you, can you preface it with? I'm noticing that I'm feeling vibrating in my torso, in my throat okay, like I would actually say I noticed that.

Speaker 1 28:54

Does that what you want me to do?

Speaker 3 28:55

yeah, I want, I want you to preface things with.

Speaker 1 28:58

I'm aware that um yeah, I, I noticed that I feel a vibration sensation, like along my spine and into my rib cage, like that.

Speaker 3 29:11

You're aware that you're sensing a vibration in your spine and your ribs.

Speaker 1 29:17

Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's that would make sense. Yes, that's what I feel right now. That's what I'm feeling yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 29:24

That's that would make sense. Yes, that's what I feel right now. That's what I'm feeling. Okay, other sensations you may be aware of.

Speaker 1 29:29

Yeah, there's a tightness at the base of my throat.

Speaker 3 29:32

It makes me want to take deep breaths and Okay, so you're aware of a tightness in your throat. Okay, so can you. You're aware of a tightness in your throat. Okay, so can you. Can you repeat it?

Speaker 1 29:45

I'm aware that the base of my throat feels very tight right now.

Speaker 3 29:49

I'm aware of a tightness in the base of my throat.

Speaker 1 29:53

Oh okay, I'm aware of a tightness in the base of my throat.

Speaker 3 29:56

Okay that you're sensing that.

Speaker 1 29:59

And I could feel my heart beating like pounding. Not fast, it's just a heavy beat.

Speaker 3 30:05

Okay, so I am aware that. I am aware that I am feeling.

Speaker 1 30:13

Yeah, I am aware that I feel my heartbeat beating very heavily right now.

Speaker 3 30:19

Okay, okay.

Speaker 1 30:21

Okay.

Speaker 3 30:22

What about any thoughts that you may be aware of in your head right now?

Speaker 1 30:30

I'm thinking that this can't be safe. This doesn't feel safe to me at all.

Speaker 3 30:36

Okay, so I am aware of the thought that this cannot be safe right now.

Speaker 1 30:46

Literally. I am aware of a thought that says this is not safe.

Speaker 3 30:50

Right now.

Speaker 1 30:51

Right now yeah.

Speaker 3 30:52

Right. So do you notice what we did in that, what we did in in that?

Speaker 1 31:01

those examples yeah, like what, what I felt like was happening is you weren't letting me jump to the conclusion. I don't know if that makes any sense, but like, what I wanted to tell you is what I, what it felt like is going to happen and, like you were, you put up a little wall there we're not going to go to the conclusion. Just say what's happening, I'm what you're, what I can feel right now.

Speaker 3 31:20

And that wall like. What did the wall? What experience did the wall do?

Speaker 1 31:30

Was there any experience that the wall gave you? Well, I mean, admittedly, like not being allowed and I don't mean that in a bad way but like having that little firewall put up and like, no, no, don't jump to. The disaster makes me a little bit more aware of the process of drawing the conclusion.

Speaker 3 31:43

Okay.

Speaker 1 31:43

Right, and it makes I guess I would have to say it makes me feel like it's not as dangerous. Okay, it's like it's. Look, I could see what I was doing, okay.

Practical Application: Role Play Session

Speaker 3 31:53

Does that make sense? So what I hear is it's kind of a speed bump.

Speaker 1 31:59

Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. It's like it slows.

Speaker 3 32:01

It slows you down, yeah sure between the initial what you in your initial belief, and the catastrophe, or the. The cat you know the your initial response in the cat, you know the catastrophe yeah, yeah, that's a good.

Speaker 1 32:15

Yeah, I like speed bump.

Speaker 3 32:17

That's pretty good yeah, okay, I don't know if we want to continue.

Speaker 2 32:21

Well, can I? Can I add, cause I want like, so beautifully done, and I just wanted to add to that Like. So let's imagine now that you are, you've just been having all of these experiences that you described and you might ordinarily and maybe you didn't even in the moment want to check in about your heart rate and what it was doing, right? So part of the reason that you're doing that is because of that fear, right, that, like that, those, those physical sensations are really compelling. It's like danger, right, like you're hearing danger, danger, danger in your mind.

Speaker 2 32:59

But let like, if we take one of those experiences, right Like the, the, the tightness at the base of your throat that you noticed. Another step that we can incorporate is is imagining that there's a space there that you can breathe into, like you're going to expand a balloon there, because our immediate response to that is to grip right, like, what is that? I don't want that there, but it's the resistance of that that's going to make you go check your pulse, so which is going to keep you stuck. So are you still feeling that, right there?

Speaker 1 33:33

Oh, I feel every day, all day long it feels, yeah, it's still there.

Speaker 2 33:37

Yeah, and can you see where that might pull you into like trying to figure out, like you know, what your pulse? Is doing and all of that yeah.

Speaker 1 33:46

Just the conversation separates me from it a little bit Like, just like that's me. Yeah, it's still there, but I don't feel like this urgent pull to check on it so much just because we're talking about it.

Speaker 2 33:57

Right, right, so that awareness is helping you to for it to like deescalate slightly, just enough that maybe you can accept that it's there so that you're not going to. So ultimately, maybe you don't need to to do like a formal exercise, but when you're, when it's still really intense, which sometimes it is, even if you're noticing what's happening, you can. Maybe you can try it with me. Imagine that there's this balloon in that area, the base of the throat, and instead of being like, oh, I just want to relax, relax, relax. You can kind of hear in my voice it's a little bit aggressive. I'm not really prone to supporting relaxation.

Speaker 1 34:37

It's the opposite of relaxation.

Speaker 2 34:39

Yeah, and I think that the trick is like, can we relax into this experience? And that's what breathing into it, like you're going to make space for it, does. So I want you to just take a deep breath in for me and imagine that you were going to make space.

Speaker 1 34:55

Well, I'm going to be honest with you and push back on that. I spend all day long trying to take the deepest breaths I can, so that's not really helping me.

Speaker 2 35:05

That's such a fair point and I'm so appreciative of you giving me that, that um insight into your experience. And I imagine, if I may, I imagine that when you're doing that, you're you're trying to, you're trying to make something in your experience, change Is that right?

Speaker 1 35:22

Yeah, it feels like I can't get a deep enough breath, so I'm trying all day long to fill my lungs up to my chin.

Speaker 2 35:27

Right, right, yeah. You're having this thought like oh my gosh, I'm not getting enough breath. I got to get more breath.

Speaker 1 35:34

Yeah, and it's oh go ahead. The conversation actually helps me do is not do that, not take a deep breath. I don't feel as compelled to have to take a hugely deep breath.

Speaker 2 35:45

Totally, and that's so fair. And you know what, like, let's just we can just leave it at that. Or you know what I? What I was saying is, if at some point it escalates, we can look at it. Then I want to point out, it doesn't the the intention is slightly different. What I'm saying is not to breathe in like you're going to get the deepest breath or you're going to make sure that you're breathing or that you have enough oxygen, but instead that you're going to breathe in with the intent of just allowing for there to not quote not be enough breath.

Speaker 1 36:15

Yeah, it's weird, but I get it.

Speaker 2 36:19

Yeah, it's a weird concept, but in any case, we can go on with this. Oh, it's weird, but I get it. Yeah, it's a weird concept, but in any case, we can go on with this oh, it makes sense. But I realize that yeah.

Speaker 1 36:28

This is like anxiety theater here. Yeah, where were the two of you in 2005 when I really really needed you? When we end the recording and I will come back and put aend on this, so you guys know how to find Joanna and Lauren Can we hang out and schedule? Maybe next week we'll record a part two, cause I think we should continue this.

Speaker 2 36:48

Totally yeah.

Creating Space Between Stimulus and Response

Speaker 1 36:50

So, unfortunately, I'm at a recording time, so we're going to end this one now, but I promise, hopefully the next episode of the podcast, we'll you'll see the three of us again and we'll continue the conversation. Right, you'll see the three of us again and we'll continue the conversation, right? So sit tight, I'll, I'll wrap it up. You guys stay with me and we'll. We'll figure out. We're going to record next. So okay, and we are back. That was so much fun. It was a little bit awkward to sort of cut it off abruptly because Lauren and Joanna didn't know we were going to do two parts of this. We thought we were just going to bang out a quick 30 minutes on mindfulness, but, as you can see, there's a whole lot to talk about, so we weren't really able to do that. Come back again for episode 319 of the Anxious Truth and I promise you'll see part two of this discussion. So I hope you found it kind of helpful, even if it was sort of abruptly cut off. As you can see, there's a whole lot that goes into understanding and applying the way mindfulness is applied when we treat anxiety disorders. Yes, if you want to accept, if you want to float, if you want to willfully tolerate if you want to do all of those things. Mindfulness is a big part of that. So I hope you took something out of this. If you want to know a little bit more about Lauren and Joanna, you can follow the links in the podcast description. Or if you're watching, of course, on YouTube, you can check out their links in the video description. I'll also put them on screen. Lauren is at the obsessive mindcom and Joanna is at Joanna hardestcom. Again, you should follow along with both of those people because I trust them, they're good people and they know what they're talking about. So that's it. I will end the episode by again reminding you to come back for 319, for the second one, if you want to know even a little bit more about practically applying mindfulness in your own journey. I can't believe I said this, said the word journey, but I did, and you don't have a therapist to work with. If you go to learntheanxioustruthcom or just go to my website at theanxioustruthcom, it's linked there. I have a practical mindfulness workshop that I run every six weeks for a small group of people, and I have a free downloadable practical mindfulness exercise that you could check out too. So if you want to dig into that a little bit more. Feel free to do that. If you're watching on YouTube, maybe, subscribe to the channel. Like the video, leave a comment, you know, do all the things, because it really helps me out. And if you're listening to this as a podcast episode, either on Spotify or Apple podcasts, leave a five star rating if you really dig the podcast. And if you want to take an extra two minutes and write a review that tells people why you dig the podcast, well, that helps it get found even more, and then more people get help, and that's why I started doing this to begin with. So, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1 39:06

We'll be back in two weeks to do part two of this particular discussion on mindfulness and anxiety recovery. If you take something that you learned today in our discussion and you try to apply it in some small but meaningful way in your own progress, even if it seems insignificant, if it creates a little bit of a change, there's a little bit more acceptance, there's a little bit less resistance, there's a little bit more willingness to work through the scary and difficult experiences, then you are winning. Even though small, little direct changes in direction count, they add up. They will get you where you want to be in the end, so don't get discouraged. Even the small wins count. Keep going. I will see you back here in two weeks. Check out Disordered. That I do with Josh Fletcher that comes out every Friday. That's at disorderedfm. Take care of yourself. Thanks for hanging out with us. I'll see you in two weeks. We're out you.