10. A conversation about ADHD and Mindfulness with Dr. Patty Shutt, founder of Sacred Treehouse

This week I am so excited to share this conversation that I had with Dr. Patty Shutt, founder of Scared Treehouse, a meditation and education center in Boca Raton Florida. 

• We talk about mindfulness in general, as a branch of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy mixed with Eastern practices like Buddhism. 
• Dr. Patty shares her own story of ADHD and how she has surrounded herself with her own tribe of people who understand and support her in her daily life.
• Dr. Patty shares what tacos and taco nights have to do with mindfulness through her own story. 
• She shares how she helps clients to practice mindfulness and also be compassionate with themselves on their journies. 

Dr. Patty has over 20 years of experience working with individuals and groups to improve mental and emotional functioning. She's deeply compassionate. She's genuine. She's an active therapist who helps individuals with a range of difficulties, such as depression, anxiety, addiction, trauma-related difficulties, stress management, and lifespan adjustment issues. She works in collaboration with her clients to create desired changes and reach important goals for lifelong mental wellness, and she believes everyone should live a life filled with love, health, peace, and personal fulfillment. The best part about her bio is that at the end it says that she lives to end suffering.

Learn more about the work that Dr. Patty does and how she can help you at the Sacred Treehouse and Therapeutic Oasis. 

I'd love to hear from you! You can connect with me in the following ways:

Instagram: @balancedlivingwithadhd
Email: jennifer@jenniferwatts.ca
Website: www.balancedlivingwithadhd.com

I'd love to know if there's something you want to hear more about or if you want to let me know about your own experiences with ADHD and weight loss.

Transcript

  So welcome, everybody. I am here with Dr. Patty. Dr. Patty is a psychologist and also works with eating disorders and mindfulness. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself just to get, give everybody an idea of, of what it is that you do. 

Sure. I'll, I'll give you a little bit that actually is maybe. of weaves in some of why you asked me to even join today. But a little bit about me. I am a licensed psychologist and I have been practicing for over 25 years and through my practice or even my early training, I came to learn mindfulness, which actually really built my aware, my self awareness particularly around  the area we're going to talk about is ADHD.

Certainly around eating. These are things that I started building awareness early on because of mindfulness and of course my clinical training where I, of course, self diagnose.  Right. I was like, Oh, I have this.  So those are the early days of beginning to have awareness around my, my own personal experience and, and the diagnosis, it came first from me. 

Oh, that's so cool.  Yeah. Yeah. And so I am currently part of a large team where we practice both in Florida and of course, you know worldwide where I work with clients both in coaching and therapy in person and zoom and over the years of my clinical practice, as I started to teach.

and was trained in mindfulness. So first I use mindfulness myself. It was my practice. And then I, I delved deeper and became a trained teacher and BSR mindfulness based stress reduction. A certified teacher in that mindful self compassion teacher. And over the years, I've not only brought. these teachings to my clients, but realize that really everyone can benefit.

So I opened the sacred tree house around 15 years ago. Um, so I've been doing that alongside my clinical practice where I work with individuals who are not in therapy. And they work with me, either coaching or in groups  and doing. Intensive trainings and mindfulness and self compassion.

And so, you know, it's kind of woven in. I really call myself a mindfulness based psychotherapist and a mindfulness based coach. I, I prefer working with people who are willing and wanting to use that approach. Part of the reason is that I don't want to be their guide. I want to help them become their own guide.

And that is a deep belief in mine that we all have wisdom within us. And so part of my goal, eventually, sometimes people have a really hard time because they're literally struggling so much, even, even with ADHD, you know, I can reflect back on times where I, I would never have approached doing mindfulness meditation because I couldn't sit still. 

So I would have, one of those people who said, oh, I can't do that. Well, and that was going to be my question, because you mentioned that you kind of came to it through your own practice. So how did that come about? How did you come  to have your own mindfulness practice?  Yeah, it was great. I mean, when you're in early graduate school, and I'm doing

my practicums, they call them, right? So I'm doing work with clients. I was always someone who probably part of my impulsivity. I mean, it's, it's funny to reflect on it now. But I can literally see myself in this. clinical meeting in grad school. And our professor was saying, look, I have this, you know, we're, we want to introduce this new program and we need two people to be willing to teach dbt skills group.

And I was like, I'll do it. I had no idea what it was. Okay. No idea. I just always, you know, one, I was always eager to learn. So that is part of my, my personality,  I just am always curious and learning and, willing to really step into spaces, but it was also part of my impulsivity.

Right. And then of course, right away, someone else volunteered and we were it. Okay. Um, we were the people. Because only two of us raised our hands and so we co facilitate and fortunately wherever you are, Dr. Ann Booth, okay she was literally the perfect co facilitator. She was very focused.  Calm. She already knew what mindfulness was.

I had no idea.  Okay. Then we're talking about 30 years ago,  so had no idea. She knew. So she started teaching the mindfulness section and I sat in those groups with really, really struggling. I mean, people suffering so much. And of course I wasn't suffering as much as them, but I was sat there and said, I need this too. 

So I, that was the first experience with mindfulness and I knew I needed it. And part of dbt, um, as a psychologist part of being a dbt therapist is that you have your own practice that you. Are practicing those skills that those are the, those are skills that you bring forth in your own life, that you become the teacher through your own behavior and actions.

Right? anD these were the early days before there was certification and things like that. It was, it was a relatively new. Endeavor there wasn't even any formal clinical training at that time. So we kind of trained ourselves,  but I fell in love with it. I needed it. My clients needed it. Some of my clients resisted it in the early days and they'll tell stories like, you know, you just slid it in under the door, you know, I didn't want to learn that, but.

Somehow you just slid it in and they discovered it. They discovered how helpful it can be to cultivate mindful awareness.  I think that's so amazing because, I mean, we talk about how, especially with ADHD, often  you're not going to do something just because you're told to do it. You almost have to have your own sort of input into that.

And so I love the way you explain that of sliding it in there and then Them kind of discovering it on their own and making it their own practice. I, I think that's amazing. Yeah. onE question I had, cause I have heard of dbt brought up before as something that can be really effective and helpful for people with ADHD.

Can you give us a brief explanation of what it actually even is?  Yeah. So dbt is it. Stems from really the, the, it's like a branch on the tree of CBT. So cognitive behavioral therapy. And so like Marsha Linehan and many, many others over the years. I mean, it has evolved into a phenomenal treatment for many people, not just who it was designed for.

Um, but it initially was developed from CBT. it added in this, the Zen Buddhism, the Buddhist mindfulness. So it took CBT  and took mindfulness, radical acceptance, all of these practices from sort of the Eastern mindfulness teachings and blended it with CBT. And her initial, when she was developing this in her early treatment protocols. 

Because she was treating deeply suffering people. These were not people with some anxiety and, um, mild, but they had, they were really suffering with severe, um, suicidality complex kind of issues sometimes, you know, mental health combined with, you know, Maybe early kind of trauma and in many cases, dbt there, the philosophy is really this bio social that there is, and I believe deeply in this that, you know, we're born right with, with this set of like genetic predispositions these temperaments, and this, this sort of, you know, if you look at babies and young children developing, you see how different they are from the get go, okay?

And then they are born into a social environment, parents, family,  church, school, and they are, they are now interacting, there's a transaction that happens. And I can even use, like, how this applies to me in particular, because. I know, as a child, I was different. I was told that I was different and annoying, okay?

Some of my early messages were like you know, you have ants in your pants, you'd lose your head if it wasn't attached your motor mouth I was really annoying and frustrating and hyper and couldn't sit still, always getting in trouble at school. because I was in a Catholic school that really, really did demand kind of like very much compliance, you know, sitting in your chair all those things really hard for me.

I was impulsive. I'm sure I literally was talking all the time. In class, not paying attention.  Okay. Real difficulty. I kind of like would be a little bit of a class clown, although I don't really see myself that way. I think it was really because I was just  couldn't sit still.  And, and so that, that impacted me because not only did I get in a lot of trouble, you know, there was a message of like, there's something wrong with you.

You're a bad kid. And I, I, I mean, I, I know I wasn't a bad kid. But I know that I actually was. It's difficult and challenging for people. My poor mother, right? She, you know, had multiple ADHD kids, okay?  And she didn't even know it, right? So back then, no idea,  no one, no one ever diagnosed that. 

Um, it really seriously was me finally in grad school being able to see, oh my God, I really do have this.  Yeah, which I'm sure a lot of people listening can relate to, especially women and those who identify as women. Like we, I mean, so often, I'm sure, you know, this, obviously, as a psychotherapist, like,   we're just not diagnosed as children and end up picking up on it and self diagnose quite often as adults, like, later in life.

So, yeah, I'm sure even think that over, over the years, quite honestly, if I had been diagnosed it, yeah. I mean, I have seen the evolution of, you know, people viewing, I mean, viewing ADHD or any kind of  neurodiversity as somehow a bad thing and like something wrong with you and there's really, it's cool because I just before I came in to meet with you I.

Have 1 of our administrative specialist. She's not usually here on Friday and she's here. And I was like, hi, I'm so happy you're here. I love having you here. And we were talking about me coming in and she, she was so cute because she was like.  She has, she calls me all kinds of names too. Okay. Like I said, what are those names that you call me?

She's like, you're like the absent minded professor, you know? She does all these kind of names and she really helps me, right? She's someone who's like, okay, you know, remember X, Y, and Z. You know, she, she knows  that I need a little bit of support around me around certain things, right.  That, you know, don't, don't send me an email because I'm really not going to see it. 

I'm not going to be able to respond to it like other people who I, I am not able to see clients and check emails and text messages  all at the same time. Yeah.  And I like, even the way you explain that. It's so interesting, and I think this really relates to the work that I do because  people with ADHD,  I feel like they worry that they're making it seem as though they need accommodations or special treatment.

And that's simply not the case, like, we just operate differently. And so we have to approach things just in a different manner. And we're all like, driven and we want to succeed and everything. We're not looking for a way out or a way to make things easy for ourselves. We just, we just operate differently.

Right. Well, and, and that is the part of where mindfulness and self compassion. So I, I would say that self compassion is probably the, the ingredient that led to me  Releasing the self judgment. Okay. So, I mean, I will tell you now the way that I respond to myself when, you know, I can't find my phone or like something like that is, is happening, or I'm getting overwhelmed because there's, there's over stimulation, you know, and or I'm easily distracted and things happen is I'm so much more compassionate.

I actually get it. I'm like, Oh, this is, this is why. Right. And the moment that I can do that, I can drop the self judgment. That's always there.  Okay. Or judgment from other people, which I, I'm, I mean, I'm blessed by the way I work with the most amazing team of people who, who know it's, I work in a safe environment that it's okay to know, Hey, I have this, this is.

what's operating for me. And one of my, one of the clinicians out there, she was so cute. She overheard me. And she's like, you know, Patty ADHD is what makes you amazing. She's like, that's why you have so many.  Diaz and  innovative and creative and dynamic. And I'm like, it, it was so cool to hear that from someone.

And I really, that is something that I share with my clients.  And so I, I just am so lucky because I have people who are able to see that in me as well. Yeah. Now that she probably hasn't been frustrated with me.  Of course. It's both. And that's what DBT is. It's really both. It's like, I have ADHD and, right, like this is difficult for me and I need to try to do better. 

That self compassion element of it is, I mean, it just the recognition and then implementing that is so  tough for a lot of people. And so that's something that I really want to, I mean, you kind of touched on it, but I really wanted to touch on that is how mindfulness, how that can help people with ADHD in general. 

I think a lot of people look at it and they're like, well, that's too hard. My brain doesn't work that way. I can't practice that kind of stuff.  But how is it helpful for us as people with ADHD? And then is that true that it's like harder, quote unquote, harder for us?  So. Yes. Yes. I will say that certain aspects of like mindfulness training, let's say.

So if you're going to, you know, go to a mindfulness class and, you know, part of actually being with a really well trained teacher is the teacher is already going, you know, they're already going to help you see that mindfulness is not about doing something.  Perfect. Or it's, it's about attention, right?

It's about cultivating and paying attention  to the present moment. Like what's happening, actually being mindful of I'm not focused, or my mind keeps wandering. That's mindfulness.  Being able to do it without judgment is mindfulness.  We might be aware, Oh, I'm distracted. Mindful awareness is both about attention and intention. 

And it includes When we have mindful awareness, we're getting curious about it. We are actually nonjudgmental. Okay. It's not bad that we have wandering mind or we have difficulty focusing and paying attention when we're in a group and there's a lot of people talking. That's not like, there's not something wrong with us.

It's actually a challenge to do that. And so what do I need? So that ability to actually recognize it, accept it. This is just how it is. And what do I need? Brings in really like the kindness, the self compassion piece of how can I help myself pay attention in this environment?  I think accommodations, I mean, Lord knows I needed them.

I never had accommodations my entire life. Okay. And I advocate for myself, even on my team. I'm like, guys, I, I need,  you know, I, I'm going to shut my door when this or that, or I can't do two things. If they're asking me to look up something and they're talking to me at the same time, I'm like, wait a minute.

Now I know what happened in the past when I wasn't aware of it, I tried to do both and you know what would happen? Nothing would get done or you'd just get frustrated. Both. So it took me longer to do the task.  Okay, then I would get frustrated and irritable and then like I might even say, like, I might now like be speaking in a way that's actually not reflective of it's not helpful.

Okay.  It's not even wise what comes out of my mouth because now I'm frustrated, but the frustration really isn't with the person. It's not even with the task.  It's literally because. My attention's going like this and, and everything's getting jumbled and  I literally don't feel effective and I'm not quite frankly.

And that's okay. All I need to do is say, just give me one minute. Yeah. Let me just do this. Such a beautiful thing because I think that just shows how much even just having the awareness of it is such a big piece of it. It's not that you have to, like, try to do things perfectly or differently, but even just knowing, okay, I'm feeling frustrated because this doesn't work for me.

And to say you know, just a minute or being confident and comfortable, I guess to say, like. Maybe I just have to do this a little bit differently. If you don't have that awareness in the first place, then it's tough to get to that place of being comfortable saying that you need to do things a little bit differently. 

Definitely. Yeah.  Another thing I've been kind of wondering, and I'd love to talk to you about this, is how does mindfulness factor into some of the challenges that we face as people with ADHD when it comes to eating? 

So, so it's great because I'm an eating disorder specialist and I also absolutely love food. I love teaching mindful eating. I work with people in with full blown eating disorders. And of course, people with both ADHD and eating disorders or just ADHD. And on medicine. So I, I, you know, I'll speak to you really first about mindfulness, right?

And how it helps and then kind of touch on the food. Because when I think about help, first of all, mindfulness can help, right? You already touched on like the awareness. Okay.  Mindfulness is about  intention, the intention to be present with whatever is in the moment. Okay. It's without trying to even fix it. 

And this, this is the way. In which we can actually build awareness, full awareness, okay, where we can actually become wise about even we can jump to and you bring up eating. And sometimes people can jump to you know. Eating disordered or I need to go on a diet that, that we jump in because we already assign like a blame or a diagnosis or whatever.

So mindfulness helps us to pull away from jumping to conclusions, right? We just start to get curious,  and really curious about what's going on. So I'll tell you a funny story and it kind of links, I mean, this is like classic Patty and I tell a lot of my stories over the years  about about my own challenges, right?

And one of them's really funny. It's silly. But I would say that everyone who knows me. In fact, it's my birthday tomorrow. Oh, happy birthday! Thank you. So, pretty much everyone really close to me who's gathering and wanting to celebrate and, you know, be with me for my birthday is planning some kind of Mexican tacos like theme, okay?

It's like, let's get together, have tacos. We want to make you tacos. We're going to go to this new Mexican place. So I'm going to be eating tacos for like the next five days, morning, noon, and night. Okay. Which isn't a problem for me because years ago working in addiction treatment I developed a whole addiction program.

I used to joke with people that I have an addiction. to tacos. Okay. My nickname in college was Taco Thomas. Thomas was my maiden name. Okay. So it goes way back. Okay. Now  I joked about this in an intervention with a family member because they asked, well, what do other people, what are, what do you guys do?

And I'm like, I'm really addicted  to, I know this sounds silly, but I'm addicted to tacos. To Mexican to nacho like I can't stop like I have like I have an issue with it  Okay, and that was I mean that was like pre kids. I was probably in my doctoral training at the time So I was diagnosing everything right I had everything I Really had ADHD  And so it wasn't until I was married with kids and literally my kids would not go out for tacos and I was not happy about it.

They're like, you always want that mom. We're not going, we're never going there again. So they put, they put up a whole, you know, revolt against Mexican food. Like, literally, like fights, I'm not kidding, you know, try to get in the way of my tacos, right? When I wanted them, it was a problem.  So then I started looking, and of course I was already studying mindfulness at the time, right?

So I was already in, in that, in, in already this like, really like, Oh my God, let me be curious. And I was like, you know, I used to joke about it, but I was like, let me really look at it. Right. Okay. So I started paying attention to my, my taco cravings and all of that. I started bringing mindful awareness to it. 

And not saying, no, you're not allowed to have tacos. Patty tacos are bad. You're not allowed to, but like, isn't this really interesting? Like, what is this about? What is this? Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Um, all of that. Okay. And I, and I uncovered so many things, so many things in that process  of understanding what it was about.

Okay. And some of it, some of it had to do with literally early childhood stuff, how actually, you know, really having some early trauma and stuff in my family where taco night  was like the one night. Like, I loved it. It was probably the only food I actually, like, I hope my mom doesn't listen to it, but like the food she fed us as kids, she knows this because I like literally wouldn't eat it.

I was a picky eater too, and so, and, and if I told you what she was cooking, most people say, yeah, we get it. We wouldn't have wanted that either. So taco night was like the one night I would eat and it was like, it, it was soothing. It was fun. It was like not chaotic. It was just a whole bunch around that.

And so it, it, it lived on as being something that I looked forward to. I enjoyed, I felt was soothing and it felt good. Right. And so this. It's building this awareness. 

And knowing even  today, my husband, if I, sometimes I'll call him, I'm like, I'm coming home. I'm coming in hot,  like make sure everything's picked up because I might lose it on my way in. Right. And so I'll come in. He'll be like, do you want to go out for Mexican?  Okay.  So that. You can see a little bit, and in the past, how any kind of state of mind, emotional state of mind, I just may have  impulsively,  even kind of unconsciously, been like, I'm going to Taco Bell.

My husband will joke about Taco Bell. Right? That was like Patty's, like, thing.  Okay?  I'm serious. It's like, really like a thing. And so, so as I. Cultivated awareness and, and really allowing myself to go to Taco Bell. There's nothing wrong with going to Taco Bell. Even though really, like I really, really, really know that the food  compared to like actually making my own, I'm aware now.

Why? Because I actually slow down and taste it. I'm actually really aware that I, I don't want Taco Bell. Okay.  It's not Taco Bell that I want, right?  And so, you know, and yes, Mexican food, it just has, it has this thing for me. Like it definitely, I connect with like, ah, I feel better now. Okay. And so, you know, I, we have taco night every week.

It's like a family thing.  I look forward to taco night. As you say that just talking about the tacos and the connection that you made to why you have those emotions and sort of psychological aspects connected to it. There's so much emotional aspects to these things. And it almost makes me sad when I think about people.

Who aren't aware of these connections that they have, and then they get mad at themselves. Like, why do I want to eat this all the time? Or they try to go on a diet and restrict themselves and don't even appreciate what they're actually doing to themselves.  Emotionally to say, like, you're, there's something wrong with you, what you can't control yourself around this.

So I'm just going to like, cut it out of my life and why that just doesn't work. And how, I mean, this to me, I'm just kind of having all these light bulb moments of no wonder, like the, the mindfulness and the awareness around those things is so impactful, because when you make that connection, you can understand why you feel that way about the food and then  work with it from there, kind of, as opposed to just saying, like, there's something wrong with me.

I need to cut this out. Yes.  Exactly. And I think that, you know, in the  working as a psychologist with people, I mean, when I think about the, the world right now and all the messages about food and how confusing it is and how people mislabel you know, even, even eating like my tacos, like, no, it wasn't an addiction.

It wasn't even an eating disorder. Okay. It really,  Are there emotional components to it? Yes,  there were emotional components to times when I would just,  you know, not maybe not even be hungry, but go get Taco Bell. Okay, that's an example of like, like that was not me eating tacos, even cause I was hungry. But that, that sense of, and there's a lot that I uncovered around tacos, but  this specific thing of like, number one,  as I was, became aware.

Number one, I wanted it more when I actually didn't eat during the day. So I had lots of jobs over my lifetime where I literally did not have time to eat. Okay, which is terrible by the way. Highly, highly. Encourage people to quit their jobs if there's no time to eat because that's a terror.

You're, you're just setting yourself up. So when I was working in human resources for Macy's South and in the holiday time needing to like, you know, hire a bunch of people and all the crazy madness, right? No time to leave my desk.  That was in a basement, a dark basement. Okay, so what do you think I ate on my way home?

Okay, Taco Bell. Okay, and, and I needed it. I, I needed food fast because I was actually really starving. Okay, and I needed, I was emotionally massively dysregulated. Okay. Not only from the stress of work, but the lack of actually nourishing my body adequately during the day. Okay. So it actually set me up sometimes to actually eat more like, like not an actual meal, like more than a meal, right?

Well, because I missed two meals, right? So it really isn't binging.  It's not even emotional eating. It's actually eating,  eating because I, for lots of reasons, right? Because I was literally hungry, but now I was emotionally dysregulated. I'm going to crave the food that's fast. Yes. Okay. That's going to feed my brain really, really, really fast.

I'm also really tired. So hell no. Am I going to go home and cook? No.  No, okay, so, so there's so much over the years as I reflect on my relationship with food and in, in this specific one, Mexican and tacos, because I literally  would, you know. Kind of like  I don't know. It would feel out of control sometimes.

So that's, that would be the one thing that I would say when people experience that feeling around food. And it's really the only thing, the only time, the only, only food that I ever had it with. Well, that, that's what I would go to. Right. Yeah. And now I understand the mechanism around it and how ADHD, in some ways, literally forgetting to eat.

When I was in a job.  That I was like, go, go, go, go, go high anxiety. So there was like adrenaline and, you know, had no hunger signals because of the stress of the job  until I actually left work and now I can see.  Like the pattern that was set up during those times. And by the way, I was like literally the most unhealthy, it was the most unhealthiest, worst time of my life those days.

So I'm happy to say I don't add all live my life like that. Yeah, and it just goes to show there's so many other components that go into your health, just like you were saying, it was the unhealthiest time for you, but it's more than just what are the actual foods that you're eating, right? Oh, completely.

I mean, just as I back up and the aftermath of literally living like that really led to like a depression. I mean, I was literally working in a basement, no light. I would not see light for days. And you can see people even, even the lack of awareness, I think like ADHD in it's like truest form.

Because of impulsivity and lack of attention and focus can literally set someone up for truly not being aware of those other things.  So what is the answer here? Because I, I keep thinking like, I know there's so many people in situations like this or, or.  You know, I mean, I picture you in that basement and then the Taco Bell and, and just the cycle of that because of the dysregulation afterwards.

And then that sets you up, you're kind of,  you know, the next day, it's even worse. And, and when I imagine folks like that out there, and I just want to go help everybody, but , how can they, if they're really. Not in any kind of awareness around this kind of stuff, where do they begin? Like, where do they begin?

You know, so when you said mindfulness, cause I will say that in the height of like being so disorganized and, and not able to sit down, I will say that I really would not have ever predicted that I would sit still and, and do any form of meditation. So I think starting there would be really, really hard for people.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I think that I actually came to it and stayed with it because I was introduced mindfulness in a very easy, simple way of doing it in your everyday life. And it, there was structure to the learning and there was support, right? So I think for people who.

Come to having all kinds of issues. I mean, that's why I'm a mindfulness based psychotherapist and coach, because whatever problem you bring to me, I'm going to help you learn to pay attention  and help bring mindful awareness to it, right? As opposed to, I'm not just going to diagnose you and say, go do this and it's going to fix it. 

Because you are a unique individual. Just like me. There's lots of things that make that have, you know both my biology and my experiences that have resulted in how and what I do or not do. And so being able to first understand and learn that and come from a compassionate place.  And unfortunately, this is if we talk about emotional eating or eating disorders or  anything in our culture, you know, you know, we all want to a quick fix.

That's so true. Yeah. And I, and we'll talk about, I just want to touch on meds a little bit. I'm  completely and utterly not against meds and meds will not fix this. Okay. They will not address the, the complexity of ADHD. Okay. I was never diagnosed it. So I never got medication. Once I finally did, which was really post grad school.

Okay. Even then I, I wasn't like in a place where I was like, I have ADHD. Let me go get a medicine for it. Okay. I just wasn't. And and so when I first tried meds, I actually did not have a positive. I ended up having to get like meds. Okay. The meds helped focus and pay attention, but then I needed meds for like this and this and this.

So I, and I didn't like that. I quit it, stopped it. Didn't do it again. And for years, like, 15 years until post COVID when I approached  the, when I actually, I, for some reason, I feel like my ADHD, it either got worse.  I think it really got worse because I work with people I've worked with for over 15 years and they know that I have ADHD and  but it, it had some different elements.

Something changed. It was different. And I didn't like it. And I got my own coaching that said. Why don't you try it again? I mean, they didn't actually say that, but they helped me see it, right? Right. Yes. Yeah. So I'm going to tell you it's actually, I'm just going to share this because I think it's like literally amazing that I gave birth to two of my greatest.

One is one of my greatest teachers. My. My daughter, Elizabeth, and my other daughter, Victoria, who is like, literally my personal assistant. So I gave birth to my tribe that helps me every day. Of course, my husband, too, who still picks up my purse and carries my keys around. So he helps, too. 

But Elizabeth was living in Hawaii and doing health coaching. And it was post COVID, and I was like, you know I really need, I, I I'm gonna try your program. She's like, really, mom? I'm like, yeah, I wanna do it. And so I signed up, my friend and I signed up and we both did it.  And every week we'd both look at each other and be like, oh my God, we can't believe how much she's helping us.

Oh my God, I can't believe how much she's helping us. And she was really coaching me, again, mindfulness lens, being aware. And it was really her that led me to actually. Getting curious about what, why, why am I not trying this X, Y, and Z. And I was like, okay. And I started bringing it to my team because I'm part of a consultation team.

And I was like, Hey guys, I know this is happening. I was like really forthcoming. I was so aware of like, I was doing X, Y, and Z. And and, and I was concerned it was like getting in the way and. And they're all really kind of patient with me and tolerant. But I started looking at them and saying, you know, why are you guys so tolerant of this?

You know, I want, I really want you to call me out on it. And they held me accountable to go get a psych eval and, and we'll consider meds  really recent, like a year ago. Okay. It took me, they, they, they had to keep their, you know, the pedal on the metal because I was really, again, had some resistance.

I didn't want to have to go into a cycle of like having it affect whether it affect my appetite and then affect my sleep later and all these things.  So, so  again, still, I, I actually did get help. It's helped tremendously in areas of my life. I'm eternally grateful for my team who like has also encouraged me, but it, it takes more than that.

Yeah. Yeah. Like it's a tool, right? Is it? Yeah. And it's one tool that, you know, particularly when you're talking about eating disorders or disordered eating that, and I don't have an eating disorder you know, but when you have ADHD and you take medicine and it disrupts, you know, it's, it's gonna disrupt your appetite.

Okay. Yeah.  So if you're low weight already, it disrupts your appetite. You, you don't have habits of eating because of already a life that is chaotic or, you know, now you're, you're entering into a vulnerability, I'll call it. You know, and so this is a place where somebody with an eating disorder and ADHD, which I have clients like that actively now, where we are very, very, very aware of it.

They work with a dietitian and myself. And it is so critical for those people to actually mechanically eat, even if they don't have an appetite that they eat anyway, because it doesn't mean that their brain doesn't need food. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's. Something where you probably need additional tools to make sure that you're regulating that.

And because you don't have the natural tendency to want the food or go for it, then you have to put other things in place to make sure that you're doing it. Right. To care for yourself. Yeah. Like eating before you take your medicine. Right. So that you've already started nourishing yourself for the day.

Wow. Yeah, there's so many other things that go into it.  I guess I've been thinking about with mindfulness. I'm not specifically regarding food, but just impulsivity in general. Does mindfulness help with that? Or can that affect your level of impulsivity? 

I mean, absolutely, right? So one of the ways that it's helped me, I'll use my personal example again, not mindfulness is not going to be a, it's not a pill. It's not a quick fix.  it's actually a way of living more in awareness.  So the more you are aware,  the less impulsive you're going to be because you're going to be. 

Seeing and sensing. So one of the things, you know, this is again, part of like a classic Patty is when I'm aware that I, like, I'm someone who, when I'm, let's say, after I work out, my energy goes up. I'm like, whoo, whoo, whoo. Okay. I feel like good. My energy is great  when my energy is high. I have a higher likelihood to act on impulse, okay, because, because my motor's running.

Okay.  All right. And, and so because I have ADHD, it's great. I can be really productive, but I need to be very aware and focus this energy. Okay. So where do I want to focus it? Well, it could go anywhere. Okay. If I'm not paying attention and aware, I could be like. Let me go to home goods. Okay. It's a place where boy, if I go to home goods after I work out, okay, I might come out of home goods with a lot of things I don't need.

Okay. Because I'm like, Oh my God, this looks great. This could be great. This could, I could use this here and there. And maybe I don't even know where I could use it, but it looks so great. I want it. Okay. And my cart's full as I'm checking out and I'm having the best time of my life. And I don't do that anymore.

Yeah.  I don't do that. Laughing because that's so me. Not HomeGoods because we don't have HomeGoods in Canada, but, but like HomeSense or something like that. I would totally do that. But  I like never thought of it like that, that when your energy is higher, That you would have that, you know, more of a likelihood or tendency to be more impulsive.

And that's, that's another perfect example of you developing that awareness through the, you know, mindfulness, which I just, I'm just fascinated by this. It's truly amazing. Okay. And so that, that's part of cultivating that, that again, with compassion, right? Because years before home goods, it was target.

Okay. And so I have years of like, you know, self forgiveness for overspending and overbuying during those impulsive, you know, and, and, and I teach my clients, I'm like, you know, especially, you know, when you're depressed and now you feel good, if you go over, if you're, Up here and you have ADHD, okay,  you're going above heightened states create a vulnerability for impulsive behaviors. 

It's just, it's, I mean, I radically accept that. So I need to pay attention. This good feeling feels good and I better take a few breaths and see if I can bring it down.  Let me just pause. And remember, why am I here?  What do I need at HomeGoods?  Okay.  Just one thing.  Oh, I just, I wish everybody could have that, develop that awareness, and just be able to take that pause, that tiny little pause of taking a breath to be, just like you said, why am I here?

It seems so simple, but man, that can change what you end up doing in situations like that. Right?  Yeah,  it's incredible. And it takes work. So I would say that for someone beginning, never done a mindfulness  practice, you know, really beginning.  Really, really simple  learning what it is because people  often misuse mindfulness because they think it's just the actual paying attention, but you have to pay attention without judgment.

Yeah, with curiosity.  Okay. So I'll give an example because I teach mindful eating. And I teach it in a sangha group that I belong to of all teachers because even mindfulness teachers need help with mindful eating. Because we have all sorts of habits and a lot of them come because they think it's going to help them lose weight.

So the first session anyone comes to, I go, whoa, whoa, whoa. If you're here to lose weight, you want to be on a diet. Don't  That's, this is not for you, right? Because mindful eating is not, we're actually engaging in it because we want to be aware of what it is that we're experiencing, what, what our thoughts are, what our emotions are, and what the sensations, the, the, what food tastes like, what my body needs, how it feels when I give this to it.

We're not actually engaging in it to lose weight. to control our food. And that is so essential to cultivate first and even to notice, Ooh, because the  first time everyone does an actual mindful eating practice with me, it often is in the, the MBSR course that I teach  teacher at sacred tree house. 

And they do it on retreat day where we're together at a retreat. And it is the most  Unbelievably powerful experience because everybody eats, it's part of being human. And it's one thing we eat multiple times a day. We eat our whole life. And so when we, we've already cultivated because we do this around week five or six, so you've already been practicing mindfulness and now we bring it to the, to the food and it is the coolest thing.

That's why I continue to study mindful eating because I see the transformation that can happen in people's life when they just start to bring it to eating  without  dieting. Yes. Well, like, even like you said, like everybody eats, we all have to eat. And so incorporating that into this daily habit is.

That's really cool and really amazing. So, like, I keep picturing, like,  you know, people wanting to start with some kind of a practice like this. And like you said, you can't just really, like, dive right into it and you have to start with small steps. So what is, what actually Constitutes mindfulness, because I think everybody, I mean, everybody pictures it differently, but I know I at the start thought it meant like, oh, you're sitting on a pillow in this specific position, like, and you're clearing your mind.

What would be mindfulness for somebody who's. Completely blank slate, unaware, doesn't really know what, what it means to be. Yeah. So I think doing even like an intro course so that they get the basics of what is mindfulness.

And, and so they literally begin, first of all, learning what it is and what it's not so that they can start to notice.  When they start to mislabel like I'm not being mindful or judging it because that's not mindfulness So I think about the basics of where I learned it basics of beginning to observe and notice Like, you know notice  You could bring it.

I mean, we'll use food for example  just notice  when you open up the refrigerator notice a What grabs your attention? Okay, don't judge it. Just be like, where do I look first? What is it that what what is it? I mean you might even start I might start someone with you know, what what do I need? You know, how hungry am I can I tune in to like what my needs are?

Not what I should or shouldn't eat, okay, but can I, can I notice what I want, what I desire? So, so you're beginning to get curious and ask yourself questions just in everyday life. And if I can be mindful of the shoulds and the shouldn'ts, okay, like particularly around food or even everything we do in life people are constantly, constantly living their life according or. 

Expecting that they should be living their life according to these rules or these guidelines. And so I really teach people, I, some people, it's uncomfortable to be in their body. So it's not always a place to start. So you can start outside of yourself. My other favorite place is for people to begin paying attention to nature  because. 

One of the, I mean, just like if you bring it back to if I am paying attention to nature,  I am going to feel more connected to nature. When I feel more connected to nature, I feel more connected to myself. I can actually feel and sense things and become aware. So nature can be a super like neutral. easy area to start with where you just go pay attention, go, go for a little walk, you know, notice when you get out of your car and you're walking from place A to place B, can you just see what, can you open up your eyes and notice?

What's around you.  Listen to the sounds. I love that. That's it. Like Kate, yeah, like the, I never thought about it like that. And that's so true how some people like going within is such a tough concept and that this is such a great starting point to just notice external things. And that's okay. Like it's okay to start there.

I've never heard it spoken like that. And I, I love that because that's so accessible for people who really struggle with. You know, they're, I don't know, self concept or would really have a hard time to just have this idea of looking within and being with themselves for like an extended period of time.

This is just so much more accessible and I love that. Yeah,  that's great. It's 1 of the things that I, I have offered over the years is a beginning mindfulness meditation. So it's, I get to like work with people right at the beginning. Like they don't know anything, but they've heard about it. And so it's like, we just start and it's so, so simple.

And so over, over the past year or so, Lizzie and I created a, a mindfulness community membership where people can come on. Learn things, do virtual things, but also have access to like little different modules, different teachings so they can sort of do that, but also have some live interaction with us  so that I can actually guide them specifically for what is challenging because I do believe really everyone can do it.

Okay. This is, this is like awareness is our, our natural state. Okay. So we can all get back to it. And so it's really about how and what works for me  and, and having a guide often is really what oftentimes people need.  Well, that's what I was going to ask you, but you kind of answered that is with whether you have some kind of courses or something available for people if they, because I think people would really feel comfortable with somebody who understands the ADHD perspective with this.

So, like, you know, having had it, but having it yourself that's huge. Like, I, I know for myself, I really connect, more when I know somebody understands where I'm coming from. So that's really cool. So you do have courses or, or that type of stuff available. Oh, definitely there. I mean, we're offering like, you know, both in person and hybrid and online things all through the year.

So people can. You know, they can come in and start kind of online and getting comfortable with it. They can do a one on one session to kind of, you know, get support and then they can decide if they want to, or maybe they already know they've done a little, they can jump into one of the more intensive, like MBSR is one where it's literally life changing.

Okay. It's life changing period. And I'm sure you don't say that lightly. Like, yeah. So is MSC. MSC is like  the most healing thing that I have ever, ever taught  my clients in 25 years. I wish I had it 25 years ago. But it is a new a newer in, in my. You know, toolbox  in my sessions. I would call it the newest thing that I've added.

Where I've taught, I've always brought love and compassion and kindness to my clients from me to them, but being able to now teach them to actually do it for themselves is.  I can't even say that there's anything better, more like rewarding and fulfilling than doing that. So just  people can't see me, but this whole time, Patty and I have been talking, I'm like nodding my head.

My neck started to hurt because I'm like, everything she says, I just love. And I, I think the biggest thing for me that I love about what you say is like. Enabling people to learn how to not only do things like this for themselves, but just to come to these discoveries on their own, like, you're not as a, you know, as a therapist or something, like, just telling people, like you said, you're not just diagnosing people and telling them, like, do this, do that.

This is what's like, quote, unquote, wrong with you. Like that. It's such a gift to think of people coming to it on their own or being a participant in their own. Yeah. Change and stuff. It just I love it so much. Okay. So I want people to find you like, so I know you're on Instagram. You have the secret tree house, right?

You guys go and find her on Instagram because you have such great tips and stuff like that. And you also have on there some. Because Patty has mentioned that she works with a team and you have a registered dietitian that you work with who I'm going to have on the show, because I think that's amazing that she works with the mindfulness aspect of things.

I think that's going to be huge, but where can people find you? Yes. So our website is sacred tree house. com or  therapeutic oasis.  com. So therapeutic oasis is.  In the word therapeutic. So it's more of our therapy clinical practice. Sacred Treehouse is more of the coaching mindfulness courses and classes and opportunities for people to learn mindfulness and self compassion  rate. 

Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you want to talk that you think we need to talk about?  Let's see. 

I mean, one of the things that I often teach with people, and I, and I think that this comes from a lot of my own self compassion, right, is, is we can, we can be more loving and kind and understanding to ourselves and still take self responsibility, right? This, this sense of like,  And I think that grows out of my DBT, like it's both like we, you know, there is, there is radical acceptance of, you know, this is the way my brain is operating, you know, and right now, I mean, I've definitely gotten better over the years when I, I walked in, I go, so how do you think I'm doing and what my, My staff, cause I'm on my medication.

And so it's, she's like, you are so much better. And it, and she tracks me. Okay. It's so cute. I was like, see, see, she notices. Okay. So I think that, and even my clients, by the way, it's, it's, it's kind of funny, embarrassing, and I'm very, very open and honest with my clients. And so they will notice.  When I'm like, not doing well.

Okay.  like, are you okay? I'm like, Ugh. Yeah. Having a rough time, you know? You know. Sorry, be patient with me. Mm-Hmm. like, you know, I, I'll, I'll, or I'll even, you know, really if I'm like. know that I'm off whether it's medication related or even like a personal life thing that's really got me going because I'm way more compassionate with, with myself and open.

I can just admit it. I might get somebody like, like, you know what? I'm not charging you today because you, you, I actually am aware of my impact, which I think is really, really important because I know that I negatively impact and fortunately I positively impact a lot of people. Okay. It's both. Yeah, well, that's so key.

And like, yeah, even like we were talking about at the beginning about  accommodations or, or whatever. And it's like the combo of that. It's being aware of what, where you need to adapt and do things differently, but also taking responsibility for your. You know, impact on that. So I love that.  I have had this has been such a pleasure to talk to you.

And I feel like I could talk to you forever. But yeah, we'll make sure I'll make sure that that everybody's access for you is in the show notes. So people can look you up, follow you, hopefully take some of your courses and. Yeah. Like I said, we'll have your, what's your, I forget what her name is. The dietitian that you work with.

So Christy Kajiani. Yes. We're going to have her on the show as well. So thank you so much for being here, Patty. It was such a pleasure and I never would have seen myself really talking about this. So it was, it was really fun and great to meet you too. And thanks for helping people.