Hair Loss Isn't Just About Hair with Kate Holohan

Episode 124: Hair Loss Isn't Just About Hair with Kate Holohan

Hair loss can feel like it comes out of nowhere, but the truth is usually more unsettling and more empowering: your body is trying to tell you something. We sit down with Kate Holohan, a certified trichologist and the voice behind Hair Therapy UK, to untangle what’s really going on when your ponytail feels thinner, your scalp shows through, or the shower drain suddenly looks alarming.

We talk about the part nobody warns you about: the emotional weight. Hair is tied to identity, confidence, and how you show up at work, on dates, and in photos. Kate explains why so many women get dismissed with “it’s just stress”, why hair loss is not “vain”, and how hairdressers often spot early changes before you do. We also break down the hair growth cycle, telogen effluvium, and why you may be reacting to something that happened 8 to 12 weeks ago, plus why real improvement takes consistent effort over months rather than days.

Then we get practical and myth-busty: iron and ferritin, thyroid and Hashimoto’s, menopause and perimenopause shifts, cortisol and inflammation, nutrient absorption issues, and the rise of GLP-1 weight loss medications, where under-nutrition can show up fast in your hair. Kate also clears up confusion around DHT, pattern hair loss, and why “just use minoxidil” is not a universal answer. You’ll leave with safer ways to find help, including the Institute of Trichologists clinic finder, and a clearer idea of what questions to ask before spending money on products or treatments.

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet The Trichologist

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Far Too Fabulous. Thank you for Julie and Catherine. Join us on a mission to racial fabulousness and read findfulness. Get ready for some feastiness, inspiration, candy chat, and humour as we journey together towards empowered wellbeing.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Let's dive in. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Far Too Fabulous. I'm making sure it doesn't come out as Farty again. So we've got a guest on with us at the moment who is now cracking up because I've said that. But as regular listeners will know, because of the transcript that happens, sometimes it transcribes us as far to fabulous. Just making sure I pronounce the far too fabulous. So as I've just alluded to, we have a fabulous guest today. I'm really excited to have Kate Hollihan on because she is an amazing specialist in hair loss, scalp conditions. The actual official title is Trichologist. Sounds very fancy, doesn't it? We've been practicing that. She did really well. Well done. Yes, I've come out with the right word. That's good. And we just thought it would be a really interesting subject to cover because of the impact it has on women. Well, and men, but we're predominantly talking about women. The fact that most of the audience we have, there's a hormone factor. And yeah, we just thought we'd raise some awareness. So, Kate, thanks for coming on. We really appreciate it. I know you've got your own podcast as well, which we'll talk about later. So, yeah, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

It's quite nice to just turn up and not have to do all the prep and editing and all that. So, um, thank you for letting me have a nice chat rather than work for a podcast. It's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, well, thanks for coming on. It's great. So I've got to ask you, first of all, how on earth did you end up being it, you know, looking at this particular subject, becoming a specialist in this? What's your background and what's led you here?

SPEAKER_02 2:04

So I've been in the hair industry now for coming up 30 years, which is quite scary

Kate’s Path Into Hair Loss Science

SPEAKER_02 2:10

to kind of say that, but I started very young. And um and I love hair, and I've always been really interested in hair. As soon as I'd got a little bit of experience, I started doing my educators' awards. I started wanting to teach and assess the um trainees in the salon and share my knowledge and kind of help them, and that's kind of meant that I really needed to be up to date with the latest trends all the time because we had to know what was not even out but coming out so that we could learn it so we could teach it. So I've been teaching for a long time now as well, probably about 25 years, and I was always really up to date with colouring, cutting, styling, but kind of hair health and hair loss and the science behind it all, we don't really get taught very much about it at all. We're more concentrated on the hair, kind of once it's come out of the head and trying to make it look pretty and do the best with it what we can with what we've already produced. So in 2019, I was a member of the Fellowship of British Hairdressing, and they put on a hair health evening, and I thought, oh, this is great because this is something I really would like to learn more about. So I went up to London and Robert Eaton was hosting it, and he's an amazing hairdresser. He's won British Hairdresser of the Year at least twice, I think. And I didn't know that he's also a tricologist, and even though I'd been educating all this time, probably about 20 years, I'd never even really heard of a tricologist. And this is obviously one of the problems, and one of the reasons why I tend to go on podcasts and events and talks and try and educate and go to networking groups, because if no one knows that we even exist or what we do, then we've got far less chance of people looking for us when they need help. So as soon as I found out about tricology, and obviously I'd had clients at this point for two decades. I've had clients in my chair with hair loss, with scalp issues, with shedding, with hormone problems, facing cancer treatment, and I've not been able to do much to help them, I've not had any answers, I've not had the knowledge and education. Sometimes you find you don't even really want to approach it with them because you don't really know what to say. So when they started describing to me, you know, how they could now really help their clients on a whole different level and explain all the things that they could do, then literally on the train on the way home, I was like emailing the Institute of Trikology, like, sign me up now, I need to know more about this. So just a mere two and a half years later, I uh knew a lot more. I didn't realise how much I didn't know until I started my studying, and I still, you know, there's so much to learn that there's still enough to keep me very busy, but I now have answers. I can now tell people if they've got an issue, I can tell them what's going on, I can give them a diagnosis, I can kind of offer them options for treatments or ways to kind of help. And I think with the hair loss industry as well, this is really important because as we talk about things more, like oh since COVID, we've been talking about menopause more, we've been talking about aging more, we've been talking about hair loss more, and that's great. But every time we start talking about something, you get all this marketing come out of all these people trying to sell you stuff, and it's always targeted at people where they're at a vulnerable stage where they're willing to try anything, they will buy anything, they want to believe these claims that you can grow your hair back within a week. So it's also really important to me that people are getting that help, but also getting accurate information and not just watching someone on TikTok and buying hair oil and things like that. So I kind of started and obviously haven't really stopped. I've just been on a big snowball now for the whole of the last few years.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

It's become your obsession a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

I don't know if you can tell.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

No, but it's great, isn't it? And it seemed like you say there's still more to learn and you'll never learn everything. That's how I feel about nutrition as well. There's always new things coming through and more knowledge, and it's just ever evolving, and that's what makes it exciting as well. But I know you through working on the nutrition side of it, and you've always had an interest in health and things like that. So I'm not surprised that that that talk that you went to, there was an instant spark of, hang a minute, what your hair isn't just this thing hanging off your head that you just make look pretty. There's more to it than that. And it is, and I think it feeds into people's confidence and their identity. And when you've got your hair, you don't even think about the impact of what would what how you would feel if you if you lost it or things started to happen. So, what's your been your experience with that side of it?

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Well, it's funny because I do a lot of education. I also like to go to colleges and talk to young stylists as they're getting into the industry and explain to them about trachologists and how we can work alongside hairdressers to support their clients and make them aware of it. And I also did a careers fair at my daughter's school recently. Because again, I kind of think a lot of it's very difficult with a hairdressing, particularly, because you still get that stigma of, oh, you're not very bright, go and do hairdressing. Yeah. And actually, it can be incredibly. I mean, now obviously I'm learning all scientific, but even just general day-to-day hairdressing, you're using chemicals, you're using numbers, you're using marketing skills. Nowadays, we everyone in if we're self-employed, we have all these different aspects of our business that we have to cover. We're all multi-skilled, multi-talented people. We're not idiots. It's not just brushing a bit, you know, oh, that looks nice, dear. It's not like that. So, but with those young girls in particular, they kind of go, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just another guest coming to lecture us. And then when I say to these young girls, could you imagine if you woke up tomorrow and all your hair was coming out in clumps in your hands? All goes very quiet. And they all suddenly go, Oh god, yeah, no, I wouldn't like that. And I think it's it's probably something you come across with nutrition as well. Unfortunately, the hair we really should be nourishing and trying to look after is the hair we haven't produced yet.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

So we really should be looking at how can we support our hair and our hair health before we see a problem. And it's the same with nutrition, really. We should be looking to support our bodies with nutrition before we have a problem. But I'm sure, like me, you only start to see people once they start to realise oh, there's something a bit off here or something not right. And especially for hair, the longer you leave it, the harder it then is to kind of get you back onto a really good place. So again, it's even more important to me that people know that I can help them because you do get this whole thing of oh, it's really embarrassing and it's really upsetting. So I'm just gonna hope it goes away on its own, or I'm not gonna talk to anyone, or I'm gonna hide it from all my friends and family, and I'm not gonna say anything, and then or they'll go to the GP and the GP will just go, Well, yeah, but you know, it's not gonna kill you, I haven't really got time for this. It's probably just stress. And so the the gap then as well between people actually getting that help and diagnosis is a lot longer than I would like it to be. And I think there's still that slight kind of stigma around it, and it's only when we start talking to people and we start looking for answers and we start looking for help that we realise how many other people have been through it or are going through it or have experienced it in some way.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

It's so emotionally weighted, isn't it? We talk about identity, like without my hair, I I feel like it's a huge part of my identity. If I didn't have blonde hair, this long blonde hair, I mean, who am I even? And I remember when some friends of

Confidence, Identity And The Stigma

SPEAKER_00 11:00

ours were shaving their heads for charity, and it was a good while ago, and I remember thinking, I literally I couldn't do that, do that. Part of me then wants to make me do that because I feel so attached to it to actually find out, you know, who I am without the without the blonde hair. But there is it's so emotionally loaded. And the trouble is we are dealing with human beings that don't do anything until it's really painful. Do you know what I mean? Until their their guts are causing them problems or they're so unhealthy, or they're so stiff, or they're so broken that they can barely move. It's until it stops them from doing something. And it's it's gonna be the same, isn't it? With the hair, they're gonna wait until there's an actual serious problem. And it's it's really sad actually. You're talking about that delay as well between them feeling that they've got this problem to even then going and seeking help and then being able to find the right person. Yeah, it feels like there's too many steps to actually get to you.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Yeah, and I think women are slightly better at this, and I see a lot more women than men, because I think A, with men, they're more it's more likely to happen. They kind of expect it might, it's more socially acceptable anyway, these days, it's not such a big deal. So, although I see a lot of men and men have just as much right to be upset about losing their hair as women, there's a lot more men that are like, Oh, it's fine, I'll just let it go, or they're not that bothered. But also, men especially will not do anything until their legs literally falling off, they won't go. Women are a little bit more proactive and they are a little bit more likely to kind of seek help or seek me out, but I do think although it's got better, women also have this historical kind of whole background of being told they're hysterical, being fobbed off, being told there's nothing wrong with you, not being taken seriously. And I still have it a lot where I've had people, and because they've not known about a trichologist, or they've rightly thought, well, I'll go to the GP first, it's a health issue, I'll go to the GP. And to have the GP sit kind of two metres away from them and look at them and go, Well, it looks alright for me, you know, when it's not. We do have this kind of worry that am I being vain? It's not an actual problem. It's a very difficult one as well, hair loss, because it's not a cosmetic problem, but it's seen as one, and sometimes it's not necessarily a medical problem, but it's it's seen as one. But then to the doctors, they're like, Well, it's not serious. Well, you try telling anyone who's losing their hair that it's nothing to worry about and it's not serious, you know. When you're experiencing it, it can be hugely upsetting. And again, you're then also looking at it's not just the hair loss, it's all those other aspects. It's the self-esteem, it's the depression, it's the confidence, it's then the lack of social interaction, the lack of them wanting to do. You know, I've known people where they've started to suffer from hair loss, they won't go for dates, they won't go for job interviews, they've got their son's wedding coming up, they're crying because they're worried about the photos. It can have a huge effect on people, but I think it's hard when you're worried that people aren't going to take you seriously, or you're thinking, oh well, it's only it's only hair, I shouldn't be so vain. You are entitled to be upset about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Is it a a symptom of something else that could look that could be serious?

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Well, your hair, as far as I know, you're never your hair will never fall out for no reason. No one ever loses hair for no reason, even if that's just genetic. So even if it's female pattern hair loss or

Hair As An Early Warning Sign

SPEAKER_02 14:45

male pattern hair loss, there's a reason there, it's genetic and it's hormonal. So hair is the second fastest rapidly dividing cell in the body. It actually takes a huge amount of energy for our bodies to make hair. And don't forget, we don't look like it, but we're making hair over our whole body all day. So just because we can't see a lot of it, we forget that we're covered in hair. So we're making a lot of hair all day, and it takes a lot for our body. Do we really need hair? Not really. So if our bodies are struggling, we want this, we want our bodies to be in a state of homeostasis, right? We want our bodies, our whole systems of our bodies need to be running well, which again, I'm sure Julie's probably said this a million times. Our whole body needs to be running well for our body to be happy, for everything to be balanced and be working right. Our hair is a non-essential item. So if our body's depleted, we don't have the nutrients we need, we're stressed, we've got really high cortisol, we've got inflammation, there's autoimmune conditions, there's many, many reasons why. But if your body's upset and it's trying to protect you, then for a lot of people, hair is one of the first things that gets the production gets reduced. Because we don't need, you know, if you've got a choice, if your body's got a choice between cognitive brain function or making your hair, you know, it's going to choose something essential, you know, keeping your heart running or making your hair. Sorry, your hair's gonna go. So to me, it's always it can be a really useful. I know people get annoyed when I say, Oh, but your body's, you know, you should be thanking your body for giving you this sign. And they're like, I'm not very happy about my hair coming out, thank you very much. But it's an early warning sign that there possibly is something that if it's ignored, later on down the line, it's gonna be a lot worse.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, you're so right. And the skin is similar in a way, it's some it's the largest organ in the body, but it's also one of the least important when you're looking at where nutrients are diverted to. It's exactly the same. And I'm I mean, I'm fascinated how much the hair tells you about your internal systems because, of course, I do the hair mineral analysis, and the hair can tell you if you're stressed, if your thyroid is under or overactive, it can tell you about hormone balance and it can tell you about the minerals that are low, some of the vitamins and the toxin elements that your hair is incredible, it's so amazing. But I also think that relationship you have with your hairdresser, there's not many people, if you think about it, that you will see on a regular basis that's looking at something that is so key to your health and can give you early warning signs. You'll only go to your doctor when there's a problem in a blue moon or whatever, depending on who you are. But with your hairdresser, I think is such an important person to recognise because they get to know you. Hang a minute, what's going on with your hair here or your scalp? It is an early warning system, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 17:58

But I think also we as people, I mean, some of my patients, you know, if they've got a patch of alopecia ariata and it's in the back of their head, they might not even know. So, in some cases, it's a trip to the hairdressers that will be the first time they realise, well, hang on a minute, this isn't right. Because, like you say, your hairdressers might have seen you for years. So they're they will know if the volume of your hair is less than it used to be, if it's breaking easier, if it looks thinner, if it's not behaving how it normally is, they will know sometimes better than you because you see yourself every day. So if you've got small little changes, you don't always notice that. But also, you know, we we all know your hairdresser knows a lot about you anyway, so they know when you're going through a really stressful period because you'll tell them and they will see you and they will help you, but it's also why a lot of hairdressers and beauticians, especially and massage therapists, also do things like the uh skin cancer training, you know, where you learn to recognise whether moles look regular or not, because we see areas of people that are like no one gets to see the back of their own head anyway in their neck. So we get to see areas from a different angle and we get to see things from a different approach. So sometimes they are the best people to kind of go, are you sure everything's or or even just if you know it's not okay, but no one else, because let's face it, your husband's not gonna notice. If you know it's okay, you think, Well, am I okay? Am I not? You know there's a little bit something wrong, but you're at that stage where you can still pretend it's all okay, and your family's not gonna say anything. Is your hairdresser the one that might even then encourage you to say, I really think you should go and talk to someone about this or do something about it? Which again, that can be that really good push to get someone in a bit earlier to actually look to do something about it. So it can be really useful.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah, definitely. And then when you think about the timing of how long it takes to grow your hair so that you can physically see it. I mean, we have an idea most of us women because we colour our hair and then our roots come through. But when we're looking at the health of your hair, you've almost got to look like

Hair Growth Cycles And Telogen Effluvium

SPEAKER_01 20:15

three months back. What was happening three months ago for your body to not send the nutrients to your hair follicles and that growth coming through? And then that's how long it takes minimum minimal, I would thought, to then recover the situation.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah. So again, it can be really confusing and it can be really frustrating because a lot of people don't realise the length of the hair growth cycle and how the hair follicles work. So, like you say, if you especially if say you had a traumatic event or your hair suddenly started shedding, the day of that event or the day that your hair decides it's going to cut down production. So normally you'd have about 85% of your hair follicles would be in the growing phase at any one time. And obviously, there's a condition called telogen effluvium, which basically where you will start to see more hair in the brush, more hair in the drain, you'll think, oh, my ponytail's thinner, I can see my scalp. That is where more hairs are pushed into the resting. So there's nothing wrong with the hair follicle, but it's not actively growing. So maybe 70% of your hair is growing. The day your body decides to do that, you don't wake up the next day and there's more hair on the pillow. You know, with skin, if you use a product and your skin doesn't like it, you'd know about it within one or two days. With hair, like you say, because of that hair growth cycle, it could be 8, 10, 12 weeks before you notice that difference. So sometimes people don't correlate that and kind of look back and think, well, what's been happening? They try and think of something that happened that week. And then the same thing also when you start to make positive changes, you start to do treatments or you address nutritional deficiencies. Or you get on some medication for your thyroid or anything like that, it's gonna take a little while for your body to think, especially say, for example, you're anemic, it's gonna take quite a while for your body to get their iron levels back up to a level that your body's happy with to start producing hair again. You don't take one iron tablet and magically your hair goes, oh, okay, that's fine now, we'll we'll grow again. And then from there, it does need to be a bit consistent because your body's not gonna believe on that first day, oh yeah, okay, we're okay now. Once you then get that consistency, if that hair follicle is having a rest, it's gonna rest for three months, that particular hair follicle. So you know, if someone rang you and said, I want you to come back off holiday early, you'd be like, No, thanks. I'm having my rest, I'm not coming back early. So, no matter what happens, your hair's gonna go through that full cycle, and then like you said, when it does start growing again, you've got to start from scratch. So it takes a huge amount, it can be six months before you can even notice a reduction in shedding, yeah, and then it can be another six months before you still start to realize, well, hang on, I can actually see. And I get lots of patients say to me, Oh, I've got all this breakage here, and I'm like, that's not breakage, it's new hair. You know, be welcome it in, be nice. So it's very frustrating because you think, well, I'm doing all this stuff and I can't see an improvement and nothing's working. But that doesn't mean it's not working, it just does take time and it's so frustrating. If I found a way to do something about it, I'd be a lot richer by now.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah, and that's why it's frustrating when you see these adverts and these products. I mean, the products, the the miracles that they promote, and like you said, the people are vulnerable at that point wanting to try anything. And some of them, some of the hair products, especially the like

Marketing Myths, Supplements And GLP-1s

SPEAKER_01 24:00

the vitamins and minerals, they do have the things in that is good for the for the hair. But you're also right, if the body needs them somewhere else, just because it's in a product that says hair, it doesn't mean that that nutrient is going to your hair if your body needs it somewhere else. So actually, a lot of the time to stay away. Yeah, it's best to stay away from them ones that that say specialist four because they put the price up on them. Absolutely, and look at the what the ingredients are for the show.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah, a lot of the hair, skin, and nail vitamins actually have less vitamins and nutrients in than the multivitamins, which are cheaper and of the same levels and have more stuff in. And again, I get also even my mum, like my mum had a period of rapid weight loss due to GLP1s, which again we're seeing a lot of and lost kind of 40% of her hair. Did she consult her trachologist relative? No, of course she didn't. No, she bought 350 biotin tablets and a caffeine shampoo, and I was like, well, brilliant. So we also do have to be. We understand this, but we also have to be really wary that not everything that's marketed is necessary. So things like collagen, biotin, you know, they are not essential nutrients, they can help, they're nice to have, but again, we don't I love supplementation and I think it's really good, but I'm always really wary in the clinic. I have a really good, it is a we market it as a hair vitamin product, but it's basically just a really, really good multivitamin and mineral supplement. That's all it is because it has everything in it that supports healthy hair and general health. But I never say to anyone, oh, just buy this, just take this. We're always looking at do you actually need it? Do we have any data? Are there any blood tests? Do we know where your levels are sat? Because you also get this other danger. I get people come in and they've all they've got four packs of vitamins, three of them have got the same ingredients in. They're actually overdosing on things that could be quite dangerous, and they think that that's oh, but more is better, or I'm doing something good. So we also need to be really careful. A, any product that shows me before and after photos, I tend to really be have a problem with because that means nothing to me. Whereas the scientific backing, but also we've got to be really careful because we think, oh, more is better, and if I do this, and if it if I do it once, then if I do it four times, it's gonna be better. We've got to get accurate information and not kind of have this knee-jerk panic reaction. And also in my clinic, I tend to kind of start people off gently because I've got lots of I've got lots of options. I've got supplements, I've got products, I've got treatments. But if you throw seven things at it at once, not only is it expensive, it's not sustainable, but also how do you know what's working and what's not working? What worked?

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

So you need slowly build up. And I always kind of start with the easiest, because I get people go, Oh, do you do hair transplants? Then I'm like, no, I'm not a surgeon. But you know, there are certain levels that we can go to to help someone support healthy hair growth, and we don't have to go to like DEF CON level 10 from the so it's a poetry of everything, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Like, what well, if I can't just take a tablet to fix it, then surgery. Yeah, which yeah, from there to there. Yeah, because I mean, because taking a taking that tablet consistently for three months and seeing if it works just seems a bit extreme to me.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah, oh no, I can't, I can't come in you know every week and have a treatment. Oh, I can't buy this product, but yeah, I'll spend £5,000 and go to Turkey and have a hair transplant as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

It's interesting what you said about the GLP medications because we we've done a few episodes on that, and it is a major symptom because what people don't realise is how little nutrition they're putting in their system, and the hair is a really good indicator of uh hello, I haven't got enough.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah, I can't keep this going. And the problem is, hair is so when we look at a blood test, the range is about 100-point variant. Well, our hair only likes to be in that middle kind of 10, 20 points. You know, if your if your iron levels like ferritin needs to be around 70 to 90, well, the NHS won't tell you you've got a problem unless it's under 13.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Yeah, it's the range on that particular nutrient is really bad.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

It can be a lot lower, you know, you're not anemic, so they would say no, it's fine. But hair's very sensitive to these little changes, which is why again it's a really good barometer to show when things are slightly going off because they will come, you know, your hair might start showing signs before you see any other signs, yeah. So it's it's it's quite sensitive, but again, I think that can be actually really useful. It's not fun, but I think this is half the problem, and I'm not going to do a whole nutrition podcast on GLP ones because that's your area, but we do see this that you can't just eat less, you've got to be even more mindful about if you're on a restricted diet, you need to be even more mindful about what you're putting into your body. And again, I think you know, you said it earlier that we almost take our hair for granted until we've got a problem with it. We just think, well, it's our hair, it's all it's going to be there, of course it is. We don't ever think, hmm, what could I eat today that's really gonna nourish my hair? You know, I would love it if we did, but it's not top of our list, so we're always we're so busy, you know, we're so stressed. There's so many factors, and again, hair loss is not always just one thing, because if one thing, it can be, especially if it's bereavement or a massive trauma. But I always say, because a lot of doctors say, Oh, it's just stress. Well, if stress it on its own was enough to cause hair loss, we'd all be bored. We'd all, yeah, you're right, we would. Because who isn't stressed?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

I know one of my patients out of every patient I've seen has said to me, No, I'm not really stressed. And she has about four holidays a year, and she's not stressed. Every other single person that comes to see me, one factor in their hair loss is their stressful lifestyle or their stressful job or their family situation. We've all got that, so we're balancing this whole kind of scales all the time, and we've got all this stuff piling on, and then it's always just that one last thing that comes that just knocks us off balance. But it's normally there's normally quite a lot of factors that we could look to work to improve to help support our hair health.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Why don't we talk about those factors? So you mentioned iron already, it's such a key one, and it's it is often when, especially for certain certain women going through perimenopause, you can your periods suddenly closer together. Yeah, so you're bleeding more, they're often heavier, and yet often there's not the connection between hang a

Iron, Stress, Hormones And DHT Truths

SPEAKER_01 31:40

minute, I'm actually bleeding out more iron, I need more iron in, and then the hair starts to become a problem, yeah, and they don't necessarily make that connection. But what other factors are there?

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Well, I think with iron also, by the time you get to perimenopause, you've been having periods for so long that you kind of forget how much they can affect us because you just think, oh, well, I should be used to this by now or whatever. But also, so many other factors, so many other symptoms of menopause is the same. So, again, I think a lot of the things that people see that may be showing up that might affect their hair, they so if you've got low iron, you might be exhausted, you might be pale, you might have no energy. Well, if you're menopausal or perimenopausal, you're also not sleeping well, you're also really irritable, you're also depressed or anxiety or up and down. All those you might just think, well, I'm just I feel exhausted because I just haven't slept or I'm stressed. So we don't always attribute the symptoms to the right things. So, again, obviously a lot of nutrition, zinc, B12, omega-3, lots of nutrients we need to help support healthy hair, but also cortisol. So cortisol and stress causes inflammation in the body, it's also going to cause inflammation in your scalp. If you've got inflammation in your scalp, you get inflammation around the hair follicles, it's called periphericular inflammation. If the hair follicles are like swollen and inflamed, that's going to restrict the hair that can grow through them. It's also going to put pressure on the hair follicles and help make their whole job harder. But also, if we are continually on that state of anxiety or kind of fight or flight, it's really not good for our nervous system. And we're on that kind of on edge all the time. Again, your body is not going to be focused. If we're in kind of survival mode, your body's not going to be like, let's make sure we make the best hair ever today. It just doesn't happen, you know. Like you said, skin as well. Our skin suffers, wound healing takes longer, you know, our skin takes longer to shed. We might get a lot of people when they get stressed, get things like eczema psoriasis as well. That flares up because we're not in our best state. So even just five, ten minutes a day that we can just come out of that level of high anxiety really helps. It helps everything. Our whole digestive system. So you might think, Well, I take supplements, I've got a really good diet, this is amazing. Are you absorbing the nutrients? So if your gut health is not there, or if you're on medications, things like PPIs, like omeprazole, reduce your acid, stomach acid down, they reduce your ability to absorb things like iron. Then on top of that, if your estrogen levels drop, estrogen is extremely protective in the body and it helps facilitate a lot of functions. It also helps in our ability to be able to make our own vitamin D. So as someone's coming through menopause or perimenopause, they might not have changed their diet at all or their lifestyle, nothing may have changed, and yet their vitamin levels might be depleting. And they think, but I haven't done anything different, but everything's working against you. Sleep in itself, I always say, there's a reason why they use sleep deprivation as a form of torture because it doesn't help anything. And also, what I have found, particularly over the last couple of years, is that life actually gets pretty joyless, you know? Like, where's the fun? You don't see people in perimenopause have it skipping around, having a laugh. You might see them drinking wine, that seems to have happened, but we're kind of so bogged down with kind of getting through life these days that I don't think we realise how important it is sometimes as well to just have a bit of fun, relax, take a bit of time out. We're all so stressed, we've got pack damn jam-packed diaries. There's no time to do anything, you know, that's pleasurable or fun or nice, or and I know that's probably people are thinking, well, she's supposed to be talking about hair loss. Why is she talking about doing something nice? But we really everything has an effect. It's connected, isn't it? So it's really difficult, but then you've also got hormones. So again, there's a misconception that if you get female pattern hair loss, that somehow you've got high levels of testosterone. That's not necessarily true, but again, all the time you have a lot of estrogen and progesterone in your body, they're kind of got that protective element to them. So as they decline, your testosterone is then kind of freer to have these negative effects on the body. So sometimes that will convert to dihydrotestosterone, which is called DHT, which then starts to cause the hair follicles to miniaturize, and that's when you get thinning on top. So again, there's a lot of misconception around that because you get a lot of people that say, Oh, you've got alopecia or you're losing your hair, that you need DHT blockers, that's DHT. The only form of alopecia that is affected by testosterone or DHT is pattern genetic hair loss. No other form of alopecia. You can buy DHT blockers, you can use medications, you can do whatever, it's not going to have any effect on it at all. And also, fun fact, you can have more than one form of alopecia going on at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

So that's not fair at all.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

You can have telogen of livium and female pattern hair loss going on at the same time, you know, just to spread a bit more joy out there if people haven't got enough to worry about.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

What I want to know is I I need to, I'm gonna send a complaint somewhere to the like the the body police or something. Yeah. Is that why does it leave just our heads? Why does it not leave my legs, my top lip of my bikini line instead?

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Oh yeah, and like with men as well, like I don't so I've never understood. The only thing I can slightly think, right? There's a slight theory going around that the reason we lose hair on the top of our heads as we age is so that it's easier for us to get more vitamin D from the sun, right? That's the only reason I can possibly think of. I mean, we kind of think it's possibly a genetic like malfunction in a gene somewhere years ago that's now been spread to many people because there doesn't seem to be any reason for it. But especially men, what on earth was the benefit genetically to losing your hair on your head but gaining back hair, ear hair, nose hair speed, isn't it? You know, it's not more attractive, it doesn't give us any help. So I can't answer that, but I can tell you for sure if you get female pattern hair loss, it will not affect your moustache or anywhere you want it to go. Sadly. Typical, typical.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Such a great question. I love that. So I'm thinking now that I mean I haven't suffered any hair loss, so and I've got quite a lot of crazy hair, as you can see. Your your hair's fine. We do come across clients that have got this issue, and obviously, from my perspective as a nutritionist, I will be looking at their nutrition and dealing with

Finding A Certified Trichologist Safely

SPEAKER_01 39:25

that. But for people listening that maybe wouldn't take that route, I'm wondering whether their hairdresser is their first place to start, and to actually ask their hairdresser, do you have a tricologist or can you refer me to one? Is that how it works? How do you go about getting in front of someone like you?

SPEAKER_02 39:43

So, in an ideal world, that would be amazing. And I have managed to forge relationships with some of the salons near me, but it does take a long time. I think the industry is growing, but tricology still is really niche, and there are only so many specialists around, which is great, but at the same time tricky because people don't know we exist until they need to know. I mean, for me personally, you can find me directly. Obviously, there is no provision on the NHS for hair loss really at all. If you're lucky, they may refer you to a dermatologist, but that would be about the best you could get. So I don't need to be anyone who referred to me, you can just self-refer and come and see me or you know, message me and talk to me. You can go on to the Institute of Trikology website and they will have a clinic finder on there. So you can put your postcode in and it will tell you your nearest certified tricologist. Because we also now again have a lot of hair loss clinics and hair loss experts popping up who have maybe done an online course or a one-day course, or they've got a franchise and they know about hair replacement systems, but they're a sponsoring a hair, yeah, exactly. So, again, it's worth finding someone. So if you go into the Institute of Trikologists website, you know that you'll get someone certified who is held to a code of conduct and is regulated because there's no regulation for trachology in the country. Amazing, I don't think in the world. You can speak to your hairdresser, it's a great place to start. And if they don't know anyone, then that might be a really good recommendation for them because we can really work well with. I mean, there's places in certain areas where they have a whole kind of setup of a nutritionist, a trichologist, someone who does things like PRP or aesthetics, you might want semi-permanent makeup if you've permanently lost eyebrows or scalp hair. So there's lots of complementary areas that you know, if you're running a business, it really makes sense to kind of work with local providers and build those relationships. And if they do know someone and they've worked with someone, then they'll only recommend them if they're good. So it's a great place to look, but also you know, you can kind of find people direct. If people wanted to know someone in their local area, they can always message me. And I know quite a few people now from doing different conferences and education and stuff. I definitely think it's worth it. It's so it is such a minefield, and it's so difficult. But if you find a registered certified tricologist, that's a really good start. You might find your hairdresser does have some good advice or some help. They might have some nice treatments or products, but when you get to a specialist level, like the even the shampoos that I have are completely different, they're not cosmetic, they're kind of tricological grade treatments and products, and they are scientifically backed and proven. And I don't whip out you know before and after photos and false promises, I kind of only use things that I really believe in and that I know are going to work and be effective. And if I don't think something's right for someone, I will say, you know, and again, I think this is the danger. A lot of places they they train and they learn how to do things like um B12 injections. You know, if you go to a clinic and you ask for a B12 injection, just a normal kind of aesthetics clinic, they don't generally tend to say, Oh, have you had any blood work done? Do you know you're deficient? Do you need it? They go, Oh no, it's 25 quid bathed. Can you come in on Wednesday? So if you go to a hair loss clinic and they start to try and sign you up for kind of like £2,000 worth of treatment and say that you need all this stuff, then I would maybe kind of take a breath before you sign up for it all and think, oh yeah, great, because a Lot of tricologists get into the profession because they want to help people, not because they're trying to make money off vulnerable people.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

If you Google like help with hair loss, what tends to come up? Do you know?

SPEAKER_02 44:12

No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't dare because it would make me angry. Um, yeah, probably some YouTube video of some guy, and it's always minoxidil as well. So we always get everyone says, Oh, use minoxidil, like that's the answer to everything. And again, it really kind of gets to me because I would never, for one thing, on a first port of call before we've tried anything else, recommend someone to use a drug that they have to use daily for the rest of their life, or for the rest of the time they want to use hair, which has side effects, and again, minoxidil is like you said, people want that answer, they want that treatment, they want to tick that box and go, Oh, yeah, I can get that thing. And even a lot of GPs will recommend I'll use minoxidil, and it's not always suitable for their type of hair loss, it's not always suitable for that client or patient. I even had a doctor recommend it to a one of the patients that I had, and she was breastfeeding, and she said, Is it actually safe to use while breastfeeding? And I was like, No. That's what you'll probably find when you go to hair loss, it's stuff like miracle cures, harsh treatments, drugs, chemicals. And it certainly won't say, Let's have a look at your nutrition, or let's have a look at your lifestyle, or let's address your concerns. And the other thing I think people forget is like I have people say to me, Oh, I've got hair loss because of hormones, what supplements can I take? Or I've got hair loss because of stress, what medication can I have, or what supplements? Well, vitamins don't deal with hormones, so you know, drugs don't help stress. So we can't we can't always have these miracle answers. And unfortunately, I mean, you know, anyway, if you Google any symptoms, if you read on Google for more than two minutes, you suddenly think you're dying because of what comes up. So if you put in alopecia into Google and you've got a mild form of hair loss, it's only gonna scare you and make you think you're gonna lose all your hair and you're gonna be really upset.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Yeah, it's so true. I would not recommend. So if someone is at the point of typing in, you know, what do I do about hair loss? Should they initially go to their doctor, do you think, just to rule out medical things, thyroid, and get checking bloods for like iron, etc.?

SPEAKER_02 46:32

So again, it depends on your doctor. I've known patients where they've got really nice doctors and they'll say to them, can you please do a full blood panel for me and do all my nutrients and do my hormones and thyroid, and their doctor will be quite supportive and quite up for it. I've known other doctors where they've just got no, it's just alopecia, or they won't do anything, or they'll do kind of like half what you recommend. So if someone came to see me in the clinic and I went through their whole kind of medical history and their lifestyle from that, I might recommend and I probably would recommend they went and got some blood work done. So if they wanted to preempt that, they could go and get their blood work done first. But again, you then have this problem of I get patients where they say, Oh, before I come to see you, I just want to um know what I should get my blood test done for. So then I'll tell them, and then they say, I follow up with them a couple months later, and they go, Oh no, my iron was really low, so I'm just gonna focus on that. And I'm like, that's great, and that might help, and hopefully that's enough, but you still haven't investigated that full picture, so you're then still almost at that risk of self-diagnosing or missing something because I've had patients before now where they've got a hugely stressful lifestyle and a lot going on, and I've pushed them to go and get blood tests, and then we found that their iron was really low, and we were like, Oh, there you go, that's what it is. When we actually got all the test results back, they actually had Hashimoto's, yeah, and that would have been missed on two occasions if we'd have just stopped at oh well, you're just stressed, or oh well, there you go, your iron's low, that's the cause. But it wasn't, it wasn't actually the main factor. So, yes, blood tests are really important. Yes, some GPs are great, but many of them, my patients have already been to their GP two, three times, not even had a diagnosis or had the hair loss complete. One lady had a permanent scarring hair loss condition, all she managed to get was two over-the-phone GP appointments. I don't understand how you can assess hair loss down a phone line when you can't even they never even saw her. No. So it really depends on whether you've got a good support network or not. And if you've got a great GP and they're open to helping you, that can be a really good starting point. But again, if you go to see a tricologist, they can tell you all the blood tests that you might need to get. You could then go privately and just order, and you can pick and choose everything you want, or go to a blood specialist and get your blood work done. There are many ways available when you know what you need to kind of help to look at. But you're almost like for you to try and help yourself, you almost need to know what you're looking for before you can look for it.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Yeah, it's so true. Yeah. I know that you have a lot of information through your podcast. Um, remind me what your podcast is called.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

So everything with me is hair therapy, hair therapy, yes. So podcast, uh, Instagram website, it's all hair therapy, hair therapy UK. When I started training as a tricologist, one of the reasons I started the podcast

Hope, Scalp Conditions And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 50:00

was because every time I said, Oh, I'm training as a trichologist, everyone said, What's that? What's that? I was like, I've got to get it out there. And that's been really, really great. And there's loads of stories on there from other people that might be going through similar things that you're going through. There's lots of people that come on and share advice on, you know, people that have come on and had hair transplants that have gone well, people that have come on and had hair transplants that haven't gone well, people that use wigs, hair systems, all different medications, treatments, conditions. I've got about 200 episodes now, so there's a bit of a library there that people can go through. And I really wanted to have people to have that resource. So even if they weren't at that stage where they were confident enough to go and face their hair loss and go to a GP or go to a tricologist or talk to anyone about it, they could sit in their car on their own in private, listen to the podcast, and know that they're not alone, you know, and that someone's going through whatever they're going through. And the overriding message from all the real life stories that I've had is that a lot of people, given the choice, if they say, if we could go back and take your hair loss away, would you do it? They always say no. Because actually, what they've learned, so a big one is when they lose their hair, they lose their identity. So from that, they've actually then had to learn how to love themselves on a deeper level and how to love and accept themselves more, or it's given them something, it's given them a community, it's given them a new purpose, it's given them something that actually, if you took that hair loss away, they then wouldn't have. So although it seemed it might seem really bleak and that you're on your own and no one understands, and no one else is going through it, but it's really not the case. And most people at after a certain point of devastation will tell you that there is light at the end of the tunnel and that things get better, and you know, it's quite positive in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Oh, that's lovely. It's nice. I guess it gives them a moment, like a an opportunity to really sort all those baselines out of nutrition, of being stress-fear, of being healthy, like all the things again that we talk about, those four legs of a chair. It gives you that opportunity to get your ducks in a row with all of them. What I really love, and I've never really thought about this. I mean, I love my hairdresser dearly, but that relationship that you have with them, and the fact that, yeah, they don't they get your hat their hands on your hair. And again, that's quite an intimate thing. I think for some people it's like maybe it's uncomfortable, and they you they have those big gaps, and you'll be able to notice the difference in that. I was watching a clip, I don't know, that scroll past on on uh Instagram the other day with Kira Knightley, and she said she was doing a movie and she was having her hair done, um, and she just found out that she was like six weeks pregnant or something. And um she'd like literally so that day or something, and her her hairdresser's doing her hair, and she went, You're pregnant. Oh, yeah, we know everything. How'd you and she said in the back of her, she'd had this bit on right at the back of her hair that had gone a bit curly, and she said, and she'd always had that, like ever since. Yeah. So I mean, if that is not it's a funny, like it's a funny story, but that is not a an example of what your hair projects about what's going on inside you. Yeah, I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

And actually, I've had clients that have told me stuff they've not even told their closest relatives, their husbands. And I have found out about people being pregnant before they've even told their family, or you know, if they've had a miscarriage, or if they're cheating on their husband. I've got people telling me about credit card debt that their husband doesn't know anything about. So actually, for some people, they're more likely to tell us if they've got a problem than anyone else, you know, and you do have that relationship with with people where they know everything about you, so or a lot about you. So it is quite uh, you know, there's not much else like it, really. There's not many other maybe the woman who does your bikini line, I guess you get quite close to them, but kind of different. But it is a really unique relationship that some people do have with people like that. So it's definitely a nice thing to be able to have.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

It's really special, it's really important. I love I love that so much. And there's I think what you've given people that are listening is is hope and empowerment that there's plenty that they can do, and that I love that the podcast is a really easy, free way for them to get information and not feel alone, and yeah, and then it's from the inside out as well. I think yes, I I think much more than people. It's the big thing.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Yeah, and especially also not forgetting scalp conditions because the treatments that I can do for things like psoriasis and eczema, the amount of like when their scalp is really scaly, I can really, really clear it within one or two treatments, I can make a massive difference. And I think a lot of people that live with psoriasis or eczema have tried so many products, so many things, and end up thinking, well, this is just my life now, I'm just gonna have a scaly scalp or bad skin. And so that's even more fun when I get to actually do something, I do a treatment for them, and they're like, Oh my god, it really made a difference. I've actually found something that works. That's really nice to be able to do that as well. Because we don't want anyone to ever think with any condition, well, I'm just gonna have to live with it now, aren't I? There's nothing I can do, I'm just gonna have to be miserable forever or you know, cover up or not be able to be my confident, full best self. If you're making all these changes, so yes, hair a lot of what affects hair is from the inside out a lot more than people realise. But the wonderful thing about it as well is all these positive changes that you start to make will have a cumulative effect, but they're also not just gonna affect your hair, they will also affect your mood, your sleep, your skin, you know, everything. So you make a positive change for to address one area, like you said with the tablets. Well, you take a hair tablet, it's not just going to affect your hair. When you make all these positive changes, it's also gonna have a positive effect on your whole life, hopefully. So it is worth it.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

Oh, brilliant! Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us. Super, super interesting, really useful.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Yeah, absolutely. Do if this is something that affects you and you are not sure what to do about it, please do get in touch with Kate. Like most women, don't just put up with it, please.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

And also, the one thing I would say is you are worth it. So I get a lot of women say, Oh, but I don't want to spend the money on myself, or I feel bad, or I feel guilty. You are worth it. You you deserve to look after yourself and to it's not a treat, it's something that you should you should be looking after yourself and you're worth it.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

And they probably spend loads of money and all sorts of like product product. Well, exactly, yeah. Yeah, and that that haven't worked, so they're like, oh well, you know, what can you do?

SPEAKER_02 57:59

Yeah, see me first before you spend hundreds of pounds on products.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

Or you spend that exactly yeah, love it. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining us today. We love creating this for you. We'll be back next week with another great episode.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

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SPEAKER_00 58:23

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Subscribe, Review And Join Us

SPEAKER_00 58:30

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SPEAKER_01 58:33

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SPEAKER_00 58:38

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