Empowering conversation with Robert Mahoney Violence Prevention Expert & Founder of TVTP Solutions. Prevention Works When Identity, Community, And Purpose Are Met.

The story we tell about safety shapes how safe we actually are. With Rob Mahoney of TVTP Solutions, we explore why targeted violence is rarely random and how communities get trapped in a cycle of visible defenses—cameras, detectors, drills, that protect during an incident but do little to keep one from forming. Rob traces a common arc across cases: people notice concerning behaviors for months or years, yet rigid thresholds, privacy silos, and mismatched incentives delay action until prevention becomes response.

We dive into the psychology of security and the unintended messages we send. When every doorway is a checkpoint, we quietly broadcast danger, raising anxiety and eroding trust. Rob shows how reframing “behavioral threat assessment” as “care teams” changes everything—inviting earlier conversations, aligning educators, clinicians, and police, and focusing on what people do rather than what they say. He breaks down the pathway to violence—grievance, fixation, planning, leakage, and explains how small, nonviolent stressors stack into crisis without timely support.

We also separate myth from data on mental illness. Most attackers are not severely mentally ill; they’re overwhelmed and fixated, clinging to identity, community, and purpose wherever they can find them. That insight points to real off-ramps: stop debating ideology and start offering credible alternatives where people can belong and contribute. Rob makes the case for negotiation over intervention, town-wide coordination over school silos, and quality training over checkbox courses. The result is a culture of care that reduces risk, lowers costs, and actually feels safer to the people inside it.

If this conversation sparks ideas for your school, workplace, city, or community share it with a colleague.

This conversation truly left me feeling empowered and encouraged about what’s possible when we work together.

🎙 Listen to the full episode of Overcomers Approach here:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2278962/episodes/18733877

More on Robert's work and services.

🌐 https://tvtpsolutions.com/

🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-mahoney-7201a6363/?trk=opento_sprofile_topcard

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

Mission Of Overcomers Approach

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is Nicole Ellis McGregor, and I'm the founder of the Overcomers Approach podcast, where I meet with different people from different walks of life, different experiences, different journeys. But the overarching theme is that we have the ability to overcome no matter what situation that we're in. And I love the fact that we have Rob Mahoney here.

Rob’s Path From Disasters To TVTP

SPEAKER_00 0:18

He's a leading expert in a behavioral threat assessment and the founder of TVTP Solutions. He specializes in helping communities transition from reactive security to proactive prevention. Through his work, he empowers educators, law enforcement, and mental health professionals to collaborate on identifying the pathway to violence and interrupting it through evidence-based strategies. Rob, thank you for being with me this morning. I think your services and just your approach is much needed in the world that we're in today and how we continue to evolve and be proactive rather than reactive when it comes to these types of situations. I greatly appreciate you being here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um to get started, how did you get into the field and why? How did how did you what brought you this way?

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Yeah, well, I I kind of stumbled into the field a little bit. Um I was uh around 2005. Um, I saw what was going on with Katrina uh and became inspired to to follow a path of emergency management um and thought that I could do some good um in that field and became really entranced with sort of the the whack-a-mole problems of solving one problem and then causing two others that you hadn't thought of. And and I thought that that kind of stuff was really pushed me to be creative and and look at things holistically and things like that. So um I had been working in the emergency management field for for quite some time, working with local municipalities, states, all the way up through the federal government on different plans, more in that sort of proactive prevention, but prevention and and and preparedness kind of stuff for for natural disasters. And then as we've all seen through the last couple of decades, you know, just this ever increase of violence and targeted violence, which is where the the website comes from, TVTP is an acronym um that is used within the industry for targeted violence and terrorism prevention. And so that's where I plucked that from uh for the company. And as I started hearing and and examining more of these attacks, I started to find that um the character arc of these individuals was was very similar. And I kept hearing the different sectors, whether it was mental health or law enforcement or or education, admitting that they knew this individual was sort of a problem, that they had had them on the on their radar, but for whatever reason, they they weren't able to act or they were in the process of acting and and things like that. And I really began to sort of see that just as a society, we have sort of put a lot of weight towards what I call protection and preparedness slash response measures. So your um your bulletproof glass on windows, um, your reinforced doors, your cameras, fences, things like that. Those, while there is a prevention intent on it, those to me, now being in this field for quite some time now isn't really preventing the attack from happening. It is protecting you in case an attack happens. And so it's a defensive type of approach rather than a proactive offensive approach. And it it became really interesting to me that even though this these individuals were known for months, sometimes years, sometimes even decades, yeah, of behavioral issues

Why “Random” Violence Isn’t Random

SPEAKER_01 4:11

and concerning things, that they kept calling these random acts of violence. Um and as I did more research and started working more in the field, I began to realize that there has actually been a lot of scientific studies on understanding the pathway of violence and that there are actual steps that every single individual kind of goes down this pathway before the attack. Um, and irregardless of what the motivation is. And because people are hear random acts of violence, they think that they're it they're in just some sort of lottery or bingo game and they're just hoping that their number doesn't get called. And because you have that framing of that it's random, it makes sense why you would choose the more defensive posture, yeah. And because you don't you you're under the assumption that you don't know where the attack is going to come from or who it's going to come from, and so the best course of action is to build up your defense sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

But that flies in the face of all the reality that we've just kind of talked about, with that there's a clear pathway um that everybody takes, that these people were known for a long time through multiple, you know, different sectors and things like that. So there's really nothing random about um these these attacks. And so really I began to start working with the same sort of partners that I had with natural disasters and started working with them in trying to create a more proactive prevention approach, um, not just for violence. Um, you know, violence is sort of like the worst-case scenario um outcome. But the prevention methodology that I use uh can be transferred and be very multidisciplinary. It can work for suicide prevention, it can work for substance abuse, it can work for all other kinds of things. Um, and I think we'll probably go into it a little bit more as as the interview goes on. But um, so I that's kind of the long and short of of how I got into the industry.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate that that that overview of you know how you got into the industry. And I love the approach of, like you're saying, some of these modalities in terms of the big, you know, defense protection. Uh, you know, even despite all that, no matter how many more barriers you put up, things still are happening and it may be escalating in some spaces as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

That's a great, that's actually a great point. Um, because part of of understanding the pathway of violence is really understanding psych. There's a lot of psychology to it and um in how the defensive postures and the defensive measures are very logical in in sort of their thinking and and their application. Unfortunately, when we we are dealing with human beings, we're dealing with behaviors, which is not logical and it is not doesn't always follow a very linear path and is irrational in a lot of different ways. And so sometimes I I go into you know with clients and things like that who want to put more SROs or put more security things in there, and realizing that the narrative that is actually being displaced or placed out there for their clientele or their participants um is counter to what they're actually trying to do. Um, and I have a you know, and I go around and I do my speaking tours and things like that. I have a personal story of walking into um a liquor store one time that I could see, you know, the cameras and the cages and um the big fluorescent lights, and you know, I went through a double door, then I went through a metal detector, then I got wanded

The Psychology Of Security Narratives

SPEAKER_01 8:18

down by a security guard, and I had the bulletproof glass all through the the liquor store, and you had to do all the commerce through um a drawer. And I remember thinking, you know, logically, this is the most secure place I have ever been in my life. Yeah, and at the same time, I've never been more scared because the narrative wasn't, oh, look at all these security measures, look how safe I am. It was what the hell goes on here that they felt necessary to put all these things in, and I couldn't wait to get out. Um, and there's that human psychology towards security in general that I think sometimes we do things in the security field in good faith and and think that we're doing things for the right reasons, but the message that comes across um through our human brains often is is different. And so trying to strike that balance um between having not overweighted value, like there's definitely value with the protection and preparedness and response and the active shooter drills and all that, most definitely. And I'm not trying to make the case that we should supplant those things with prevention, but there there has to be, we have we have undervalued the the importance of prevention, and we have overvalued, in my opinion, the protection and preparedness measures.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, that's definitely the lens that I look through it from as well. I think too, I I like the fact that you spoke to the human component, like uh what goes off in our mind psychologically when we we're in those spaces where there just seems to be a lot of uh, like you said, walls, wands, all these protections in place, because the first thing you you think is what is exactly going on? And I am I in am I a fear of my life currently right now, or what is about to happen? I just don't know. So your antennas go up, and then I believe it just physiologics, physiologically can change you too, like the way you react, the way you respond, the way you're communicating, because you're in that type of environment. And I think there's a human-centered component to public safety and security as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, and that's my role that I have.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

I I work in um I work with public safety in the fire department. I work in public safety, but I am called a community resource navigator. And really, we really didn't know. We got in there and tried to figure out what we were doing. We really honestly didn't know. And I work with a licensed psychologist, I a licensed social worker. I have a master's in human services, but I I'm not licensed. But what I've come to find out is that the more preventive, the more we're aware of behaviors, uh, and the more uh we're just in tune with what people's needs are.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

To say it'll go away, but it it brings a different perspective. And I think it ultimately saves lives and saves money, depending upon where you sit in the your position is, whether it's executive leadership, whatever municipality, departments, or whatever that is, because ultimately we need we want to save money as well. We want to be wise with yeah. And I think your approach is uh needed because I I do, you know, in the space that I'm in, I see that and I see how assessing behaviors can be protected towards the people who are in law enforcement or security, whatever that is, and um taking a different approach to it and being preventive as well. I I know I'm getting a lot of different things, but you're key, you're right on.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I completely absolutely there's there's a lot to unpackage in all of it, and and you're absolutely right. And you know, one of the things that sometimes when you start talking about behavioral threat assessment, you know, in the same way that we framed random acts of violence in in a certain mindset, right? When I say behavioral threat assessment, people sort of think of you

From Threat Assessment To Care Teams

SPEAKER_01 12:20

know that Tom Cruise movie Minority Report that we're gonna sort of scan your eyes and we're going to do this thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Um, the reason and and I personally, even though I'm in I'm an expert in behavioral threat assessment and I preach it, I don't like the title specifically because of that. Um, because when you really delve into really upstream prevention measures, do you whether it's with substance abuse, um, suicidal ideation, uh, violent ideation, etc., a lot of that character arc and a lot of that runway that we we kind of see after the fact are filled with innocuous one-off events that have nothing to do with violence, right? And so when we the core of the behavioral threat assessment is to, as you mentioned, examine the behaviors. Is there are there behaviors that are happening outside of talk? Because talk it can is is flimsy and people can just be trying to get attention, or they're they don't really mean it, or they were saying something off the cuff, and you know, we've we've we've all experienced that. And when we look at more talk, uh, or what is the motivating factor, or what are they talking about, our own biases become imparted on there, and we we begin to almost fight with that individual rather than sort of steer that individual. And so by looking at the behaviors, we can really tell more definitively if we are seeing escalation in something that potentially can be violent, and knowing the pathway of violence, of knowing how a grievance turns into an ideation, how planning then becomes, how breaching uh or or broadcasting then happens and things like that, we can see those unusual behavior character arcs, which we've already established in the front part of this interview that we know from past attacks that a lot of people have seen those behaviors happening. But what we have done with with sort of the security realm is that, well, not just the security realm, but mental health and everything else, is that we have established a system of sort of thresholds where a certain threshold has to be crossed in order for that sector to act. And so, with law enforcement, obviously, if nothing illegal is happening, they really are a bit hamstrung. Mental health will come back and say, Well, are they a threat to themselves or others? Well, no, not yet. Well, then get in the back of the line because I've only got X amount of clinicians, right? And then, you know, education kind of likes to try and keep, you know, rightly because of FERPA and HIPAA and and all those things, they like to kind of keep things in-house and and they they they feel that they have um the resources available to them and and until that threshold is crossed. Once that threshold is crossed, though, you are into response, right? Like you are not in prevention, and so things like the death of a grandfather or um just quitting a soccer team or the breakup of a boyfriend or a girlfriend, these have nothing to do with violence, right? But these are certain those little death by a thousand paper gods, these are the incidents on that character arc that if not taken care of or if not addressed at that at that uh moment in time and left to fester, could sort to snowball. And and that kind of I I have had much more success with instituting behavioral threat assessment teams by changing the title and calling them care teams.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah, I like that. I agreed. Language is important, and it's important no matter what space or or or your who whoever your audience is.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

And I yeah, and by doing that, by doing that, you take away that that that threat title, right?

Thresholds, Silos, And Missed Chances

SPEAKER_01 16:57

So that people, because I've had feedback from from a lot of you know people who have listened to me talk about oh well, I've I got training in how to identify X. Yeah, and then I got training in how to identify Y. And then you came in with your violence stuff, and I and they all looked kind of the same. So I decided to wait and see if another incident would happen or another behavior would happen that would tell me, okay, what lane are they going down into? Yeah, and I think that that's one of the the the pitfalls that we have seen within the prevention field is that there's sort of an overload of training and a specificity that um you almost get sort of a a you just become overwhelmed and you just kind of shut down. And and what I'm trying to say, yes, my stuff is is low is targeted for violent prevention, but as I mentioned earlier, a lot of just understanding prevention in general, right, is going to be able to get you to get to those individuals in crisis before they even know that they're in a crisis, right? Um, and and create just a much better environment, whether it's you know, uh a school or an office or just a community in general, of understanding that there are people out there that can help you in those times where you don't need to get to the point where you are in a full-fledged crisis or you are about to commit an attack of violence or something like that, for people to then respond to to you and your needs.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

You know, I love the fact that you said that. And I think uh, like you said, is to get really ahead of the crisis. And um, I think you said death by a thousand cuts. If I said it wrong, thinking here is uh when I've spoken with people uh, you know, that I'm helping in the community, uh, you know, you find out that they they're a crisis, they're threatening, they're making veiled threats either to community members or to other people in the spaces I work in. And once you really get down to the core issue of what's going on, it could be just several different things that occur within that week, you know. And I think the human component is to really, you know, actively listen to what's going on and to really move them into a space where they where we don't have like a crime scene or a suicide or you know, something, you know, that that could have really been prevented. Um, and I like the fact you address like all these trainings. I think, you know, people do get overwhelmed with all the trainings. And I think uh being more intentional about what we're giving people uh in terms of you know, people being overwhelmed with trainings. I think real good substantial training is very, very important because it really can change the true direct the way a person shows up at work or what they have to do or whatever that looks like, and really implement those practices and like you said, evidence-based practices into the work they do can make a world of difference. I've observed that for myself in real time. So I definitely agree with that. What do you think the biggest barrier is to communities when you talk about prevention? Because I'm I'm sure there's some barriers there.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, there there are, and I think it the first one that I see that is most common is is in general, we have a system of care rather than a concept of care. Okay, and so what I mean by that is that you will see specific systems for specific problems, yeah. But those systems are very rigid um and they stick to their lane, and they don't uh sort of cross-integrate with other systems. Um, and therefore the onus is is placed on the person in crisis to sort of navigate their crisis alone rather than the those services kind of wrapping around that individual and giving

Empathy For Uncomfortable Expressions

SPEAKER_01 21:15

that individual sort of all of the resources available if they need it or not. And and I've seen states that have analytics that could tell you, you know, if you're a first-time recipient of food stamps, they could tell you from the month, week, and day that you're gonna show up for housing assistance, right? But the people that do the food assistance do not talk to the people that do the housing assistance. And it's the same way with security, where we don't have we we all know the see something, say something. Yeah, and we think that that is sort of the stumbling block, that we just need more reporting or anything like that. We've dispelled that that I idea earlier. We don't have a a reporting problem in this country. We have a coordination problem in this country. That the systems are so rigid and so entrenched that again they create sort of their own stumbling blocks. And that is one of the biggest sort of reasons why I think it's hard for people to shift towards a more preventative prevention concept. Because you'll have networks within these systems, but they're usually single points of failure. So there's there'll be one very progressive person within that system that reaches out to the others and they ha hold a monthly meeting, or um, you know, they they start a project or something like that, but then that person leaves, or you know, something happens with the budget and they don't hold the meeting anymore, and then everything just kind of like just falls away. And so really the the the one core message that I try to provide for whether it's a municipality or a school district or an office is really come with that culture of care and ingrain it just in the way that you do business, right? And that way people can come and go, and the the the culture and the environment still remains that you know there people will gladly tell you, hey, I'm worried about so and so, and then there's a there they get on it. Um not to be like a snitch or to have some type of you know punishment or something like that, but with the idea that you know in three months you might be the person that somebody is concerned about, and and they you know contact you or they contact whoever's you know the mental health person or something, and you have a conversation and you sort of see it because a lot of times these people who want and the other thing is uh when you're dealing with individuals in crisis, they don't know they're in crisis, they're just trying to get through the day, right? And so there is a certain level of empathy that we have for individuals who we see as struggling, you know, whether it's with depression or substance abuse or something like that, and we will gladly you know pour our hearts for for those individuals and try to help them as best we can. When you get to sort of rattling off, you know, conspiracy theories or political stuff, people begin to kind of have an aversion to that. We don't look at that expression as a sign of struggling. Um, we look at it as a sign of sort of confrontation and something that we don't want to be a part of. And so that's the other sort of stumbling block is trying to get people's framing to understand that those people might be struggling just as much as the other people, yeah, and that our own biases um over what they're saying or what they're being motivated by is prohibiting us from being proactive, um, even though we are seeing behaviors that are concerning to us, right? And so that is kind of that coordination and that understanding and empathy, that that human-centered empathy kind of thing are kind of the two biggest stumbling blocks. Um, you know, a lot of the institutions sort of feel that this is this is a hard left shift or something like that. Um, it's really not. It's it's actually more geared towards the natural flow of of security information that is happening. It is just the way in which we have positioned ourselves in the environment.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Um there's a there's a great, I mean, you're you're very learned. There's there's something called Leighton's error. Have you ever heard of this?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I've heard of it, but I it's not fully coming, but I've heard that spoken before.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

So there's there's active error, which would be sort of me stubbing my toe on my desk or something like that. But then Leighton's error goes a little bit deeper where they look at did I position my desk in the corner in a certain way that made me stubbing my toe, that that actual error action more probabilistic. And I think that a lot of what we have done within the security field, as well as sort of like the mental health and everything else, becoming

Mental Illness vs Unhealthy Fixation

SPEAKER_01 26:40

more reactive is kind of creating this latent error type environment where we're almost inviting bad things to happen rather than trying to design environments to prevent those things from happening.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Yeah. I I you you mentioned a few things that really just stood out. I think the adversion for services for who have people who have mental health issues, they're definitely have maybe they have schizophrenia, just a diagnosis that I'm just gonna throw out there, or substance abuse. Um, and there's services for that. But when people call or threat with you know, politic political ideologies that are just framed in an extreme way, people have an aversion of that and their defenses go up and they're really not looking at it. It's really kind of falling on the same spectrum. Yeah, but people aren't really understanding that and and uh having an empathetic lens to that, it's more defense.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah. And yeah, I'm sorry to cut you off there. That you're absolutely right. Um, one of the things that you know, it's hard for me as a violent, as a as a radicalization expert as well, that that comes with it to start trying to tell audiences that people who want to do violence or mass violence aren't crazy or don't have mental health problems. When you really go down in the granular, only about six to eight percent of attacks are done with people who are mentally ill.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Um 92 to 94 percent are mentally are are labeled as mentally unhealthy. Um, they have a pathological obsession that sort of overtakes them. And so in that sense, that you know, that can be two sides of the coin. And I'm not saying that to make anybody feel any better, but the idea that there is somebody who is simply just has really bad coping skills or is just under an insane amount of stress, that you know, that we can sort of untie that or untangle that a little bit easier than somebody like as you said, with schizophrenia or something of of true mental illness. Um, but also to understand that people with mental illness aren't the ones that are doing the majority of the tax, right? And so I think there's that there's a give and take on that. And I just wanted to make sure that that that stack kind of comes out because that is something that really changes a lot of people's perspective on just on just the problem itself, is that you know, these people have become fixated right on something, um, and understanding radicalization, you sort of realize that the three main drivers of radicalization are identity, community, and purpose. And so all of us, yeah, regardless, are always looking for ways to sort of fill those buckets.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Um, and it doesn't have to be on the negative end. You know, you can be, you know, it's a it's a bad term again, radicalized, but there have been a lot of people within the public health sector. We saw this sort of during COVID, where they became very, very defensive um at any pushback during COVID because you know, they had gone to school, they they're in um, you know, they identify themselves as a doctor of public health or or within the mental health space, um, the community that they they work with other people within that same genre and that same sector, um, and their purpose is to keep people safe. And so when they were questioned, their their whole identity um and whole being became questioned, and you can see how that becomes defensive. And that's actually one of the ways that we're able to off-ramp people is by understanding that people are only as faithful as their options dictate. Okay, so we're not trying to debate people out of their radicalization path, we are trying to more present other avenues that they can go to. Um, and because they have become so fixated, um, they are they have the blinders on, they are not aware really of the other places where they can find a community or find a new purpose or an identity. Um, and so I look at it, I I've often gotten into sort of semantics of debates over whether it's an intervention or whether it's a negotiation. Um intervention has a uh has a sort of a top-down power dynamic that, as I mentioned, sort of questions the person's identity or purpose and things like that, and and tries to convince them uh of their wrongdoings. Um, but that just sort of has the person dig in their heels more and and feel more isolated and actually can, as we sort of mentioned earlier

Off‑Ramps: Identity, Community, Purpose

SPEAKER_01 31:40

about the different sort of narratives, it actually has a counter-narrative where they'll actually go more into isolation if if they feel they're being attacked, where by having a negotiation, you are presenting a different avenue and then giving them the freedom to sort of decide. And so there's an element of control there that isn't there with an intervention.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

That is so good. Oh my goodness, that is very good. That that brings so much clarity. I think you said intervention uh opposed to negotiation, and I uh negotiation as opposed to intervention, the other way around.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

So we want to have we want to have negotiation. So if you look at it as um think of it as you've become sort of obsessed or or you know you've pathologically fixated on something, that's almost like a hostage negotiation. You're being held hostage, and we see this a lot with people who have done attacks where they know they're on a bad path, like they are fully aware and have written down in their journals of how sorry they are, and that they know that this is bad, and they it is that they are psychologically and emotionally unable to jump off the train, right? Because as we go back to identity, community, and purpose, uh the human brain cannot exist not knowing what it is, it's it is unacceptable for the brain to just be out there in the nebulous, it has to attach itself to something. And so when you are on this dark path and you know you're on this dark path, but you have no other options that are shining, you know, showing you a different pathway, um you can't, you just can't, um, because it is just unacceptable for you to sort of try to rebuild an identity, community, and purpose from the ground up. It just doesn't work that way. And so people end up taking this violent pathway, sometimes just out of, and this is why so many people I think have uh suicidal ideation attached to their violent attacks as well, is that this is sort of a a a last explosion of expression of of their hurt and of their um inability to get the uh the the services and needs that they need of that. And um, it's just a different framing uh on how we look at security and how we look at these individuals. And um, you know, whether it was there's a recent attack here where I'm based in Rhode Island um at a hockey game, um, and the individual that that perpetrated that attack, long history of mental health issues, long history of inner of interactions with the with the police department and family issues and things like that. There was an attack a couple weeks ago up in Canada, uh, same sort of thing, where the police had to admit that they had gone to this individual's house a number of times over a number of many years. Um, a lot of different uh people had reported concerning behaviors on this individual. And again, it's it's just a a way in which we look at this problem um and the individuals that are sort of enmeshed within this problem, that we can just sort of slightly change it, hopefully, through interviews like this and podcasts like this, and and bring a little bit more context and and light to the situation of how we as the general public um approach it. Um, maybe we'll be able to sort of from the ground up begin to get that ball rolling and and sort of level out that that value of prevention along with the protection and and have a more holistic way of looking at security.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, I know we're coming down to the last couple of minutes, but this has been so impactful for me, hopefully for my listeners as well, because I believe you lay some things out that are just really like you said, um, you lay some things out which I can totally just really identify, like a light switch went off in my head. That's great about identity,

Negotiation Over Intervention

SPEAKER_00 36:15

purpose, and community. Yeah. That's a something we all want in human nature. And and how we can look at just different approaches, different lenses, different views, different perspectives. Or maybe, you know, you know, it allows people to evolve and change and to be open to the possibilities, but they have to know that there's some other options out there for them.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Um, and then I like the fact that you I do feel like some of these things, like you said, there with these recent attacks with the two people that you mentioned, there was a long history of like cause and you know, people trying to support, and just there was a lot of engagement there before just before things kind of went to an extreme. And us to look back at, you know, what what could we have done better? Can we take a look at this and see? Because there'll be other people out there, just different names, different titles, different states, different parts of the world. Like, how can we take a different approach to this? Um, to really, like you said, and we we just need to get the ball rolling. I think you really inner, you know, implementing the TBTP solutions, your program and your business, I think is just so important. And the fact that you went out and stepped out there and did it with your history and background, how it just has evolved to where you're at now, I think it is very progressive and it's very, very important. And it's a way for us to just take a look at different frameworks of how we operate in and how the systems can be extremely rigid, and how if any opportunity that there is partnership or collaboration or intentional training or to create a framework, if someone leaves the position, if a new person comes in, that stays consistent.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Um, and and I think that's extremely, extremely important. Uh, one one of my last questions is when you do your presentations and you and you and you give your framework of how your approach is in terms of um, you know, behavior assessment or however you want to frame it for the audience speaking with, what are usually their responses? That what do you what do you feel like do you feel like people are changing, or what does that look like to you?

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Some it it yes, they do, they they have a lot of the same reaction that that you have had. There's sort of the light bulb goes on and they they begin to sort of take a step backwards and sort of look at it from some more of a 30,000-foot view of like, oh no, we definitely do do that, don't we? Right. And like, oh, we we have gone down something more of a protection or response type approach, and and uh or a more punitive type approach, which um is another way. Um I will say this from my experience, any institution that has implemented a proper behavioral threat assessment model, and there are multitudes of them across, and you can probably go online um and find ones that are you know meant for schools or meant more for the mental health arena or meant for law enforcement. Um, but I have never heard of somebody that or an institution that has implemented something like that that then decided, nah, this wasn't really working, and then went back. Right. So once once you have it put in, yes, people seem to really, really like it. Um, and then they don't you don't go back to what you used to have. Um, and so you know, for the talks and stuff like that, I I try to do sector specific to try and get the sort of the most bang for the buck. Um some of the stumbling blocks of of how you share information, what information do you share, and with who, obviously, those kind of have to be taken into account, most certainly. Um but again, understanding that a lot of the incidents that sort of trigger that character arc are things that are not going to be in a very a

Real Cases And Systemic Lessons

SPEAKER_01 40:20

very linear of you did this, therefore you know, we must activate X, right? Um that a lot of things like the power of hello or creating that culture of care within the institution um is extremely important. And we have seen that, and that can go, you can make that as small as you know, it an office team or a classroom to a school or just an office, or we have now seen towns uh implement behavioral threat assessment teams um town wide. So they used to be a lot of states have them located in the schools, yeah. Um something that we've been advocating against. Um, schools should be a member of the team, they should not be the nucleus and the coordinating body of the team. Um, and so towns, there have been a few towns that have begun to extract that responsibility out of the schools and have looked at large of connecting more services around the towns or the cities um uh for behavioral threat assessment and making those, as I said, don't have a reporting problem. We have a coordination problem. Coordinating those resources in a proper way earlier on, um, whether that's through a PR campaign or whether that's through actual policy, that's up to that institution or that that that area of of how they want to do it. Um, but yeah, getting that coordination uh is is absolutely key and understanding the narratives and the the messages that you're you're putting out there in in terms of your security. Um, that sometimes, you know, as I've talked to SROs in schools and they take their job extremely seriously, and they are great people, and they look at themselves as sort of extensions of mental health, of guidance counselors and things like that. That's usually not the narrative that staff or students have. And so those innocuous, why would I why would a student go and talk about their grandfather dying to an SRO? Right, or why would a student go to an SRO and say that their friend is having a problem? That's not what the narrative of the SRO is. Now, in some some instances, they have been able to to create that that that culture where they are. For the most part, they are sort of looked at as hard protection security response kind of people, not necessarily something within the prevention arena. Um, and so just just getting that that framing and just having the the you know working through all those machinations of what do you have, what is actually available to you, and is there a gap where you have to create something? Yeah or is there a gap where there is something you just weren't attached to it, right? Right, or you just weren't connected with it, and so understanding which gaps are there, and as you mentioned earlier, the you know, the ability to save money. Yes, I've had a lot of uh you know clients where they thought the resources weren't there and that they had to get money to create something when it was right there, um, and they just weren't hooked into it, and they were actually going to be competing. against this other entity for funds for the same people. Right. And the the optimization of of getting care to these individuals was going to be greatly reduced because you have basically two entities trying to do the same thing but but competing for the same you know resources. And so that that kind of framing and in the enlightenment if if you want to has has been you know positively received. Some people find it to be daunting you know I'm sure you know after this conversation a lot of of your listeners and viewers are probably going to be like man there's a lot there's a lot there right well yeah yeah and that's why the great thing is you can listen to the podcast over and over again but I think you've given some really great nuggets of just a subtle just

Adoption And Staying Power Of Models

SPEAKER_01 44:55

a subtle change in the viewpoint right just a subtle change in the framing of it you know from behavioral threat assessment to care team right is a completely different way of approaching the problem um and and looking at it. And so you know it's it might sound like it's a huge lift but really if you can if you're able to to just message it correctly people it becomes a a real magnet and a real beacon. People people kind of gravitate towards this type of you know preventative security methodology. Much more palatable to people than say you know well we're going to put more barbed wire fences up or we're going to have you know uh you know a metal detector at every door or we're going to do new card swipes or you know all these kinds of things that that kind of elicit sort of this uncomfortableness and and sometimes even a revulsion um against it um where I have not experienced right a lot of that kind of pushback when presenting the the more preventative right approach.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

And I love the fact that you said people once it usually it's something's usually implemented whatever they want to implement into their program or organization or school they typically won't go back because there's something about it that's working. And I think it puts uh we need to highlight you know the humanness of the human the importance of the human connection and people being connected uh in the power of relationships and resources that we have and people thinking that the resources are not there the most most times whether it's human resources or whether the organization whatever that is it typically is there. It's just a coordination issue just like you said a messaging issue a PR issue. So I love the fact that you said that and I'm sure that just the the things that you've given me today I've been enlightening several different approaches. If people want to as I close uh as we come to the end of our podcast and it has been great. Thank you. I greatly appreciate it. What what services do you offer and if people want to reach out to you for your services or for you to speak what is your web link?

unknown 47:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

So right now most of my services are are educational in in terms of I I will go and I'll do a presentation as I mentioned I can make it sort of um sector specific um as as much as I can I can do it virtually or in person. We do have um concept other consultation services where you know the actual development of you know the the care team or the behavioral threat assessment team or or what have you um I do have you know ability to do that. Where I I sort of draw the line but I definitely have some contacts for people is more the the clinician sort of the actual negotiation slash intervention. I'm not a trained clinician so I don't take on cases um but I do have a a rather good Rolodex of individuals that that do. And so for me right now if you go to TVTP, targeted violence, terrorism prevention um solutions dot com, there's a contact page um and I'd be happy to to get in contact with any of the people who have listened to this or watch this podcast um and we can work on what what best fits um for them of what they need. And yeah don't be a don't be a stranger because you know I I can find somebody to get really really granular and and walk you through the steps of implementing these sort of plans or if you're even going farther and want to get like specific clinician training yes I can be a conduit to to those training avenues uh as well because one of the the weird things with that I learned way late sort of in the game uh was that clinicians don't actually get formalized training in violent ideation.

Town‑Wide Coordination Over School Silos

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Um so most of the management you'll hear BTAM so behavioral threat assessment and management. So when we get into that M stage um a lot of the clinicians will piecemeal substance abuse and suicidal ideation methodologies to try and work through there are some subtleties uh some rather big gulfs uh subtleties as well between treating somebody that has violent ideation uh and those and so um that's a little bit above my ability but like I said I have connections to those people but just for you know general awareness and getting people sort of on that prevention train um contact me and I am happy to you know uh be a part of of that mission and and help anyone out with with that okay thank you Rob it has been a wonderful speaking with you this morning thank you for giving us those nuggets of information I'll make sure that the website and the web link is connected to the narrative of the podcast when I'm completely editing it but there's something that a listener myself organization institution can definitely take from from this conversation to make our our our communities a safer place um but we have to get ahead of it versus behind it.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Thank you Robin you're one avenue that that could be thank you again thank you so much it's been an absolute pleasure thank you